I have to say that I oppose a FFA PVP server. The game is simply not structured to support it. Hell, entire zone paradigms would have to change in order to do FFA PvP. There is already going to be more than enough PvP play in the game. Letting Dwarves gang Dwarves really would not add anything to the mix.
Weird... Why would you oppose to a server that you probably wouldnt even play on? hmmm....
My suggestion would lean towards a semi-FFA server where it was still RVR, but without the ability to toggle pvp on/off outside the RVR/PVP areas. That wouldnt be impossible... just more WAR hehe
The reason people oppose servers they would not play on, is because of a couple of reasons. For one, it takes resources away from the base servers, which means less time is spent on those servers to make them better, run smoother, etc.
Another reason would be that it doesn't really fit that well with WAR considering, as much as people want it to be true it isn't, the FFA servers are far less popular than most other servers. On a FFA server for WAR, I would be willing to wager that all the maps would be spread too thin with players fighting and that you would see very little city sieging on these types of servers.
Also, companies don't want to make servers like this unless they are positive that it is going to be a popular enough server, otherwise they would be wasting money on keeping one up. And let's face it, companies don't make games because they are fun all the time, they make them to make as much money as possible. It is a business.
If you want FFA there are plenty of other choices other than hoping a game whos very premise is NON FFA to appeal to a some few who do.
Personly I've been disappointed with just about all the games I have tried other than that of DAOC. I have never had so much fun as when I played on mordred. So if this game is anything near DAOC then its pretty damn good.
All that matters in the long run is that there will be PvP. The real issue here is what the penalty will be for losing. The only way to make PvP intense (in my opinion) is to either have xp loss or have players able to loot your gear off your corpse.
The former is probably the most viable as you can get xp back. If the grind is hard enough it'll make you fight wisely and with everything you have but won't scare you off from fighting other players.
The latter is an extreme penalty late in the game (not so much at the start when you havn't had the chance to try get some hard-to-obtain gear). I imagine it would make people not want to PvP much at all, but those who do would, I imagine, get a huge rush from it.
Personally I'd like to see an xp loss on death from either PvP or PvE as it adds a certain amount of intensity to fighting. After playing Lineage 2 (I didn't PvP THAT much as it all really took place at the higher levels and I only got to 50-something) and having the reality of DE-levelling looming over your shoulders as you get into a fight makes you fight so much harder and makes it so much more interesting.
I know, however, that this isn't a popular idea in this community. Why, I won't even venture a guess, but from everyone I have talked to it's the people who have played a game with xp loss that love it and the people who have never played a game with xp loss that shun the idea - much like judging a book by it's cover. They only see "XP LOSS" and don't think of the benefits of it.
Do you know how good it feels to win a hard fought fight and know that the losing combatant has just been punished for losing by having some xp stripped (moreso at later levels when xp is harder to come by)? That in itself is a reward and until you experience the thrill of it, your PvP experience (again, IMO) is going to be a bland one.
All that matters in the long run is that there will be PvP. The real issue here is what the penalty will be for losing. The only way to make PvP intense (in my opinion) is to either have xp loss or have players able to loot your gear off your corpse. The former is probably the most viable as you can get xp back. If the grind is hard enough it'll make you fight wisely and with everything you have but won't scare you off from fighting other players. The latter is an extreme penalty late in the game (not so much at the start when you havn't had the chance to try get some hard-to-obtain gear). I imagine it would make people not want to PvP much at all, but those who do would, I imagine, get a huge rush from it. Personally I'd like to see an xp loss on death from either PvP or PvE as it adds a certain amount of intensity to fighting. After playing Lineage 2 (I didn't PvP THAT much as it all really took place at the higher levels and I only got to 50-something) and having the reality of DE-levelling looming over your shoulders as you get into a fight makes you fight so much harder and makes it so much more interesting. I know, however, that this isn't a popular idea in this community. Why, I won't even venture a guess, but from everyone I have talked to it's the people who have played a game with xp loss that love it and the people who have never played a game with xp loss that shun the idea - much like judging a book by it's cover. They only see "XP LOSS" and don't think of the benefits of it. Do you know how good it feels to win a hard fought fight and know that the losing combatant has just been punished for losing by having some xp stripped (moreso at later levels when xp is harder to come by)? That in itself is a reward and until you experience the thrill of it, your PvP experience (again, IMO) is going to be a bland one.
I like the idea of a little xp loss, as long as you cant lose a level and that the xp loss stops when you havent got any xp. In short - you can only lose xp when your xp > 0.
All that matters in the long run is that there will be PvP. The real issue here is what the penalty will be for losing. The only way to make PvP intense (in my opinion) is to either have xp loss or have players able to loot your gear off your corpse. The former is probably the most viable as you can get xp back. If the grind is hard enough it'll make you fight wisely and with everything you have but won't scare you off from fighting other players. The latter is an extreme penalty late in the game (not so much at the start when you havn't had the chance to try get some hard-to-obtain gear). I imagine it would make people not want to PvP much at all, but those who do would, I imagine, get a huge rush from it. Personally I'd like to see an xp loss on death from either PvP or PvE as it adds a certain amount of intensity to fighting. After playing Lineage 2 (I didn't PvP THAT much as it all really took place at the higher levels and I only got to 50-something) and having the reality of DE-levelling looming over your shoulders as you get into a fight makes you fight so much harder and makes it so much more interesting. I know, however, that this isn't a popular idea in this community. Why, I won't even venture a guess, but from everyone I have talked to it's the people who have played a game with xp loss that love it and the people who have never played a game with xp loss that shun the idea - much like judging a book by it's cover. They only see "XP LOSS" and don't think of the benefits of it. Do you know how good it feels to win a hard fought fight and know that the losing combatant has just been punished for losing by having some xp stripped (moreso at later levels when xp is harder to come by)? That in itself is a reward and until you experience the thrill of it, your PvP experience (again, IMO) is going to be a bland one.
I'm sorry but are you blind? Do you not know what WAR is? The reason people don't want massive penalties, is because they want to FIGHT. Not avoid fighting till level 50 and then travel in groups of 40 to avoid dieing and de-leveling.
WAR is about WAR!
The issue is people like YOU, aren't true pvps, your griefer. I'm more of a pvper then you because i want to actually fight and fighting is why i do it.
Why would making another players play experience worse, make yours feel better? That's not pvp, that's the mentality of a griefer or a ganker.
If i play counter strike, when i kill a enemy he has to buy his weapons all over again. You may think of that as a penalty, but in all truths it's a balancing act. He can get more weapons immediately and keep fighting.
In a rpg if you lose exp, you actually have to STOP fighting and go grind. In a rpg if you lose gear, you actually have to STOP fighting and go farm.
All that matters in the long run is that there will be PvP. The real issue here is what the penalty will be for losing. The only way to make PvP intense (in my opinion) is to either have xp loss or have players able to loot your gear off your corpse. The former is probably the most viable as you can get xp back. If the grind is hard enough it'll make you fight wisely and with everything you have but won't scare you off from fighting other players. The latter is an extreme penalty late in the game (not so much at the start when you havn't had the chance to try get some hard-to-obtain gear). I imagine it would make people not want to PvP much at all, but those who do would, I imagine, get a huge rush from it. Personally I'd like to see an xp loss on death from either PvP or PvE as it adds a certain amount of intensity to fighting. After playing Lineage 2 (I didn't PvP THAT much as it all really took place at the higher levels and I only got to 50-something) and having the reality of DE-levelling looming over your shoulders as you get into a fight makes you fight so much harder and makes it so much more interesting. I know, however, that this isn't a popular idea in this community. Why, I won't even venture a guess, but from everyone I have talked to it's the people who have played a game with xp loss that love it and the people who have never played a game with xp loss that shun the idea - much like judging a book by it's cover. They only see "XP LOSS" and don't think of the benefits of it. Do you know how good it feels to win a hard fought fight and know that the losing combatant has just been punished for losing by having some xp stripped (moreso at later levels when xp is harder to come by)? That in itself is a reward and until you experience the thrill of it, your PvP experience (again, IMO) is going to be a bland one.
I'm sorry but are you blind? Do you not know what WAR is? The reason people don't want massive penalties, is because they want to FIGHT. Not avoid fighting till level 50 and then travel in groups of 40 to avoid dieing and de-leveling.
WAR is about WAR!
The issue is people like YOU, aren't true pvps, your griefer. I'm more of a pvper then you because i want to actually fight and fighting is why i do it.
Why would making another players play experience worse, make yours feel better? That's not pvp, that's the mentality of a griefer or a ganker.
If i play counter strike, when i kill a enemy he has to buy his weapons all over again. You may think of that as a penalty, but in all truths it's a balancing act. He can get more weapons immediately and keep fighting.
In a rpg if you lose exp, you actually have to STOP fighting and go grind. In a rpg if you lose gear, you actually have to STOP fighting and go farm.
What is odd is he thinks that because he WANTS to fight, that makes him more of a pvp'er than somebody else. I could sit in town for 23 hours out of the day WANTING to fight, doesn't mean I am more of a PvP'er than somebody else.
While I do not mind exp loss, because I have played games with it before, it really separates motivated players from lazy gamers. FFXI was the perfect example for that, back when it first came out the only people over level 50 were people who were actually good at the game and so you knew any party you got into wasn't going to have some idiot pulling the whole zone or any of that noob drama. In a game that is all about PvP, I do not see EXP loss working, hence why they aren't implementing it, but there are ways they could have made it work. They could make it cap out at 10% of your total to next level.
Example: It takes 400 to get to the next level when you first level up.
You die 20 times. Your total to next level becomes 440 now, but would never go beyond that. It would be extra exp you have to gain but nothing huge. Nothing it would take multiple days to make up, and you can never level down.
What EXP Loss is for, which is not the case in WAR, is to promote smarter gameplay in big groups during PVE. WAR isn't exactly a PVE game, which is why it will not work.
... Do you know how good it feels to win a hard fought fight and know that the losing combatant has just been punished for losing by having some xp stripped (more so at later levels when xp is harder to come by)? That in itself is a reward and until you experience the thrill of it, your PvP experience (again, IMO) is going to be a bland one.
Hmmm. When I read things like this I am reminded about why "Player Killing" died a quick death in nearly all MMORPGs.
... Do you know how good it feels to win a hard fought fight and know that the losing combatant has just been punished for losing by having some xp stripped (more so at later levels when xp is harder to come by)? That in itself is a reward and until you experience the thrill of it, your PvP experience (again, IMO) is going to be a bland one.
Hmmm. When I read things like this I am reminded about why "Player Killing" died a quick death in nearly all MMORPGs.
Yeah, God forbid they actually make PvP only fun for those that thrive on PvP systems like EQ2, SWG (pre CU jedi death) and the such. I think a lot of posters asking for a dynamic that "will never" be in Warhammer are relying on past experienced PvP games to go off of.
This game will cater to all crowds when it comes to RvR and the new dynamic being put in place if you like your coin being stolen and your fat ass PvE lewts being taken after a battle, you are most likely looking at the wrong game "That's EQ2 not Warhammer".
Every incident in this game will have a purpose for PvP/RvR and the sorts it won't cater to griefers with blind EQ2 splendor
Sit around "wanting" to pvp? NO i'm out actually pvping in square battles against people, not to make them suffer, but to make myself win.
It's really just a different mentality, if you can't grasp that being a pvper(which i am) and a griefer(which i am not) is a different thing then your blind to the issue.
I grew up playing magic the gathering, with friends, at local tournaments, and with friends(i list this again because this is the majority of what i did). Did we play for each others cards? When I lost did i have to give him some of my deck? When i won did i get to cut up a few of his land cards?
No? Why not? Wouldn't it make it more fun?
Then when i started playing FPS games(i didn't get a pc untill i was 15) i played unreal online like it was going out of style, and eventually moved into half life mods. But the playstyle remained the same, it was still a fight to win, it wasn't about making the other player lose something.
Now you may argue that it isn't about making them lose something, but instead that you feel constantly at risk. While i do agree that this is a valid reason, the thing is, this is a war forum, and we are talking about war. Which is what my post implied. PvP in war is for all levels, and is a main aspect of the game, and is a valid way to play a character. A penalty doesn't make you play smarter, it makes you play less, and makes you choose fights only you can win(which is what leads to griefing and ganking becoming main stream).
You can argue, that you choose fair fights only, and that's what makes it exciting, that's what everyone says, but once you get into the game you see how people truely behave. But in all truths, it's just not what happens.
You mention FFXI, that game is pure pve, and pve is where you lose exp.
I played astonia, as a hardcore character, and let me tell you something, it was more challenging and risky then your "uber risky FFXI". Negative exp which is like a exp loss, and you also dropped your entire inventory. If you were in the middle of pents that required your gear, you'd have to beg for help or you just lost everything. And to make matters worse. You only had 30 minutes.
While I don't mind XP loss there are problems with it. I know one is probably fixable with some coding but in Lineage 2 when you went down a level with XP loss you didn't lose access to your higher level spells so griefers would just delevel and wipe out lower levels with one strike.
L2 actually had a pretty good PvP and XP loss setup (maybe even the best PvP system outside DAoC) apart from that since higher levels incurred penalties for attacking lower levels, of course you got the odd person who didn't mind being KOS to everyone. Item looting is alright but it really needs a way to make your most valuable items bindable to avoid the horrors that come along with looting something sweet then having it stolen two minutes later. Of course I suppose it's possible (if difficult) to code it in a way so that only the person who initiates the fight is lootable or the second party only being lootable if they fight back which makes things more even and encourages putting some more thought into picking your fights.
It's because this is a old arguement. Griefing and ganking is different then real pvp. Sit around "wanting" to pvp? NO i'm out actually pvping in square battles against people, not to make them suffer, but to make myself win. It's really just a different mentality, if you can't grasp that being a pvper(which i am) and a griefer(which i am not) is a different thing then your blind to the issue. I grew up playing magic the gathering, with friends, at local tournaments, and with friends(i list this again because this is the majority of what i did). Did we play for each others cards? When I lost did i have to give him some of my deck? When i won did i get to cut up a few of his land cards? No? Why not? Wouldn't it make it more fun? Then when i started playing FPS games(i didn't get a pc untill i was 15) i played unreal online like it was going out of style, and eventually moved into half life mods. But the playstyle remained the same, it was still a fight to win, it wasn't about making the other player lose something. Now you may argue that it isn't about making them lose something, but instead that you feel constantly at risk. While i do agree that this is a valid reason, the thing is, this is a war forum, and we are talking about war. Which is what my post implied. PvP in war is for all levels, and is a main aspect of the game, and is a valid way to play a character. A penalty doesn't make you play smarter, it makes you play less, and makes you choose fights only you can win(which is what leads to griefing and ganking becoming main stream). You can argue, that you choose fair fights only, and that's what makes it exciting, that's what everyone says, but once you get into the game you see how people truely behave. But in all truths, it's just not what happens. You mention FFXI, that game is pure pve, and pve is where you lose exp. I played astonia, as a hardcore character, and let me tell you something, it was more challenging and risky then your "uber risky FFXI". Negative exp which is like a exp loss, and you also dropped your entire inventory. If you were in the middle of pents that required your gear, you'd have to beg for help or you just lost everything. And to make matters worse. You only had 30 minutes. PvP is seperate from PK. That's a fact.
Whatever makes you happy. All I know is, that I would love to kill guys with that kind of high elf mentality in-game... over, and over, and over, and over... hehe
Whatever makes you happy. All I know is, that I would love to kill guys with that kind of high elf mentality in-game... over, and over, and over, and over... hehe
And that's where you're missing the point. And also the reason that you will probably quit playing WAR after a few weeks.
The game is not about you, it's not about how many people you can kill or what kind of grief you can bestow on others, it's about your realm and fighting to gain control of the battle field to tip the scales in your faction's favor.
You could just go around killing random people if you want, or griefing one guy, but no one's going to care if it's not helpin your realm get closer to the enemy's capitol city.
In WAR the game is all about your faction, you and your fellow realm mates fighting together to take over your enemy's city. Trust me, no one is going to care that you're #1 in number of kills in RvR if you're realm is losing.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
Whatever makes you happy. All I know is, that I would love to kill guys with that kind of high elf mentality in-game... over, and over, and over, and over... hehe
And that's where you're missing the point. And also the reason that you will probably quit playing WAR after a few weeks.
The game is not about you, it's not about how many people you can kill or what kind of grief you can bestow on others, it's about your realm and fighting to gain control of the battle field to tip the scales in your faction's favor.
You could just go around killing random people if you want, or griefing one guy, but no one's going to care if it's not helpin your realm get closer to the enemy's capitol city.
In WAR the game is all about your faction, you and your fellow realm mates fighting together to take over your enemy's city. Trust me, no one is going to care that you're #1 in number of kills in RvR if you're realm is losing.
I know and I wont be quitting the game if its good... my previous statement was under the assumption of a FFA server... less debate... war does not determine who is right, war determines who is left.
I know it's faction based, but will they release one like DAoC did?
FFA just does NOT WORK with us westerners, while the Koreans/Japanese have a certain unspoken ettiquite that actually makes those games viable OVER THERE, westerners are prone to...
BE JERKS!
I'm serious..where as the koreans actually have gaming ettiquete, we westerners are more likely to gank each other for looking at our toon funny or if someone gave us the wrong change.. It just won't work over here, we use the internet as an anonymous tool to give others a bad day.... FFA games here tend not to do to well..
I know it's faction based, but will they release one like DAoC did?
FFA just does NOT WORK with us westerners, while the Koreans/Japanese have a certain unspoken ettiquite that actually makes those games viable OVER THERE, westerners are prone to...
BE JERKS!
I'm serious..where as the koreans actually have gaming ettiquete, we westerners are more likely to gank each other for looking at our toon funny or if someone gave us the wrong change.. It just won't work over here, we use the internet as an anonymous tool to give others a bad day.... FFA games here tend not to do to well..
Well... thats kinda stupid TBH. If I wanted to play with ettiquite and not kill whomever I saw fit, then why would I choose a FFA server? Those that do choose the FFA are fully aware of jerks and the change in playstyle.
When I played on Mordred, you were judged by your abilities and how you treated others. Those that killed greys and camped someone for hours without purpose, would get a hard time at later stages by the fact that you would be KOS to many.
Guilds also have a greater impact on the game when playing FFA.
Well... thats kinda stupid TBH. If I wanted to play with ettiquite and not kill whomever I saw fit, then why would I choose a FFA server? Those that do choose the FFA are fully aware of jerks and the change in playstyle.
When I played on Mordred, you were judged by your abilities and how you treated others. Those that killed greys and camped someone for hours without purpose, would get a hard time at later stages by the fact that you would be KOS to many. Guilds also have a greater impact on the game when playing FFA.
......
Stupid huh? Let me ask you something then.. Name one FFA game thats very popular here in the West.
On the ohter hand I can name you half a dozen Korean FFA MMO's that have double the numbers of most of the major games in America.
You don't seem to get the fact that FFA games DON"T WORK OVER HERE because of the very same reasons you gave for liking them. People don't want to get killed because someone wants to be psychopathic and bloodthirsty at a whim.
How do I put this... as Josh Drescher stated in this thread www.mmo-gamer.com/, your a One percenter one of the hard core. Game companies don't make games for you, they make them to be as enjoyable to as many people as possible to make money.
Now you think that having game ettiquete is ludicrous, yet the server Modred you spoke of, has it seems not done to well (from the comments of the other DaoC players here), and as a matter of fact I never even heard of it before you mentioned it.
There are currently no popular games in the West that are FFA, yet there are dozens of very popular ones in the East, because people don't just kill other people on a random whim.
Your calling the Korean way of FFA stupid yet there are no popular American FFA MMO's or servers, (and I used the words POPULAR). So sure its stupid(to you) but they have the games you want to play, but we Americans don't.
The problem your going to have Zeelot, is that fact that are are the very same thing your names suggest: A Zealot. You want to kill at your whim and be nervous when someone stares at you too long.. the problem is most of the money from MMO's is made from casual gamers who dont thnk that getting killed at random is fun.
Your like the one Cowboys fan at a Redskins home game, and your trying to convince all the Redskins fans why the Cowboys are best.. yet you can't seem to figure out why no one agrees with you that your team is best.
Well... thats kinda stupid TBH. If I wanted to play with ettiquite and not kill whomever I saw fit, then why would I choose a FFA server? Those that do choose the FFA are fully aware of jerks and the change in playstyle.
When I played on Mordred, you were judged by your abilities and how you treated others. Those that killed greys and camped someone for hours without purpose, would get a hard time at later stages by the fact that you would be KOS to many. Guilds also have a greater impact on the game when playing FFA.
......
Stupid huh? Let me ask you something then.. Name one FFA game thats very popular here in the West.
ON the ohter hand I can name you half a dozen Korean FFA MMO's that have double the numbers of most of the major games in America.
You don't seem to get the tact that FFA games DON"T WORK OVER HERE because of the very same reasons you gave for liking them. People don't want to get killed because someone wants to be psychopathic and bloodthirsty at a whim.
How do I put this... as Josh Drescher stated in this thread www.mmo-gamer.com/, your a One percenter one of the hard core. Game companies don't make games for you, they make them to be as enjoyable to as many people as possible to make money.
Now you think that having game ettiquete is ludicrous, yet the server Modred you spoke of, has it seems not done to well (from the comments of the other DaoC players here), and as a matter of fact I never even heard of it before you mentioned it.
There are currently no popular games in the West that are FFA, yet there are dozens of very popular ones in the East, because people don't just kill other people on a random whim.
Your calling the Korean way of FFA stupid yet there are no popular American FFA MMO's or servers, (and I used the words POPULAR). So sure its stupid(to you) but they have the games you want to play, but we Americans don't.
The problem your going to have Zeelot, is that fact that are are the very same thing your names suggest: A Zealot. You want to kill at your whim and be nervous when someone stares at you too long.. the problem is most of the money from MMO's is made from casual gamers who dont thnk that getting killed at random is fun.
Your like the one Cowboys fan at a Redskins home game, and your trying to convince all the Redskins fans why the Cowboys are best.. yet you can't seem to figure out why no one agrees with you that your team is best.
and yet...despite all your claims of how FFA PVP servers 'can't' work.... AOC plans on having FFA PVP servers, Darkfall is another, and probably a few others I can't think of.....
Sure, the market is smaller....but I think it has room to grow if a well made, designed for FFA PVP from the ground up MMO is ever released....
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I never said they CAN"T work.. I said they DON'T WORK CURRENTLY.
This is the WAR forums. Zeelot has been arguing that a FFA server would be fun and could work in WAR (and from the sounds of it any game).
I was trying to edify him on why FFA games don't tend to work over here. If you find fault with my argument please tell me.
But until Age of Conan comes out and we see how they implement FFA play, its kind of pointless to argue for free for all servers in MMO's when up to this point they have yet to work in our culture.
Thats the point I was trying to get across. Zeelot is the 1% of Westerners who like FFA, and I'm trying to get him to understand why they don't work at the moment , its not because FFA is bad, its because of how are culture reacts to not having any rules, written or unwritten.
Its like a honor bar... in a church you would probably make a lot of money off of it... but if you put it in a office building...
And until we see how AOC and Darkfall do.. I won't be putting any Honor bars in any office buildings anytime soon.
FFA servers do not work in Western MMO's because of griefing and ganking.
The reason why they "work" in Eastern mmo's is because Asian mmo's put in checks and balances to "discourage" griefing. It's not really FFA pvp but without the restrictions in place you end up with griefing and ganking - which as other posters have pointed out only appeals to a very small minority of players.
Personally I like FFA pvp and I'm not a ganker or griefer, I just like the randomness of it.
My favorite pvp mmo of all time is Shadowbane. I keep coming back to it, despite it's outdated graphics. In Shadowbane you lose everything in your inventory (including all of your gold) if you die to another player - sweetness! There's no bad karma if you kill another player, no control clicking to attack another player - just pure pvp sweetness!
But most Western mmo players cry if they lose an item....
FFA servers do not work in Western MMO's because of griefing and ganking. - Actually they don't work because a good one has not been developed in quite a while. FFA servers are usually thrown in after the game has been created & they do not fit the ruleset made for the game. IE: DAOC. If DAoC had been developed from the ground up with FFA PvP in mind then it would have been a different game entirely. The reason why they "work" in Eastern mmo's is because Asian mmo's put in checks and balances to "discourage" griefing. It's not really FFA pvp but without the restrictions in place you end up with griefing and ganking - which as other posters have pointed out only appeals to a very small minority of players. - This is a great point. Eastern FFA MMO games have just as many gankers and griefers as Western games do, it's just the fact that they are controlled by the game system. If you don't believe me about the gankers then you should have played on an Eastern Lineage 2 server before it was released in the States. There were more PKers and gankers on those servers then I EVER saw in UO. - The fact is, the Eastern and Western markets have different expectations for how their games work. I would associate it to the popularity of something such as a horse racing game being the #1 selling console title in Japan while an FPS game is dead last and where the exact opposite is true in America. The reason for this is probably the same reason that different cultures like different styles of MMO games. Personally I like FFA pvp and I'm not a ganker or griefer, I just like the randomness of it. - I absolutely love FFA games. The original UO is still, in my opinion, the best MMO game ever released. I also played Shadowbane for a number of years and had a blast. The thing that ruined SB for me was the "Uber" guilds. Which I was a part of & it got very boring after we took over the server. It felt like we beat the game... and this was SB's downfall.. no control on huge groups ganking all of the lower number guilds. It just made the game boring to dominate an entire server. Too much player control is also a bad thing. My favorite pvp mmo of all time is Shadowbane. I keep coming back to it, despite it's outdated graphics. In Shadowbane you lose everything in your inventory (including all of your gold) if you die to another player - sweetness! There's no bad karma if you kill another player, no control clicking to attack another player - just pure pvp sweetness! But most Western mmo players cry if they lose an item.... - Most people only complain when they lose a large amount of time that they invested into their character. It has nothing to with the actual item. If this was 10 years ago & we only had UO to base our assumptions on and SOE announced that they were starting work on a game that you could lose all of your items if you died, no one would have cared. That is what they would have expected back then. In UO equipment was easy enough to come by that it wasn't a huge investment if you lost your entire inventory. - Same thing with SB. Equipment was not rare for the most part, you could buy everything you needed to be competitive from a player city vendor, so again, it wasn't a big deal in that game to lose your equipment or the gold you were carrying, as it was also pretty easy to come by. - No, the problem started with EQ & grew into a Supernova with WoW. Now the expectation of the majority of MMO gamers is that they spend 2 weeks to get 1 item and they could not imagine losing it. That is why when today a MMO game is announced to have full looting people make assumptions based on their previously gaming experience, which for most, is only EQ clones with rare dropped equipment. What that means is that they associate full looting with losing a lot of the time (months) that they have invested into acquiring loot.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
I know it's faction based, but will they release one like DAoC did?
FFA just does NOT WORK with us westerners, while the Koreans/Japanese have a certain unspoken ettiquite that actually makes those games viable OVER THERE, westerners are prone to...
BE JERKS!
I'm serious..where as the koreans actually have gaming ettiquete, we westerners are more likely to gank each other for looking at our toon funny or if someone gave us the wrong change.. It just won't work over here, we use the internet as an anonymous tool to give others a bad day.... FFA games here tend not to do to well..
I agree with you here Tyfreaky, I was an American in a Taiwanese based FFA pvp guild and they had a number of people in the guild and outside that had given rules of initiating PvP fights (mind you they gold farmed to sell it to though).
Most American guilds didn't last long on the servers either due to them handing 90% of the people their asses (due to different guilds teaming) in order to keep them away from the sweet farming spots.
I don't think people (mostly kids) can't get over the e-peen machoism of them actually fighting a player one on one or zerging the hell out of them to try and get a virtual point across.
In DAoC, I remember people announcing who they had actually ganked or killed in chat and guild members asking them "when were going to RvR in order to help the cause" (most of those people bounced from guild to guild until they quit).
Again, I say for the people that think they will be WOW killing crowds of folks in one amazing crit "Starfall hit" and bragging about it they will have a biiiiig suprise in store for them.
Originally posted by Tyfreaky Stupid huh? Let me ask you something then.. Name one FFA game thats very popular here in the West.
EVE.
Should I also mention that even with 'tacked' on FFA servers AC1's FFA server has a higher population now than any of their PVE servers?
Hell, even Vanguards FFA PVP server was popular - even in it's broken, unloved, buggy, unbalanced, third party ripe state.
Nobody's saying that FFA PVP is more popular than PVE...or even watered down PVP, but to say that a FFA PVP game would NOT work in the West is laughable.
the trouble i see with FFA servers is the fact that as the game nears maturity with a fair few players at the top end, u get bored gank squads going around the place killing lower level players because they have nothing else to do, or think its funny to see a character far outclassed get 1 shot, or whatever the motivation is for doing it, and so they will go out and see a low toon grinding xp doing whatever (pve, same level pvp, questing) and will just jump him for no reason and kick his butt, now this is hillarious for the player doing the grief, but for the guy who just got his ass handed to him its not all that fun at all, but people dont stop with killing the once they will stay there and when the poor guy respawns, pow! hes dead again, now say what u will about you not being a griefer and being a pvper, i bet you have gone out when bored to kill a few new toons, just for cracks with a few mates ect dont lie now, because EVERYONE on FFA servers do it at some point :P. The majority of people who play mmo's and play on ffa servers, (i have done from day one with EQ) are not nice people when grouped with friends, i have gone out with a couple of mates to go "pwn the nubs" and yes its fun for a bit , but ive been on the reciving end where ive been a fresh toon and maxxed out people have come along and camped me for 1/2 hour, thats karma, but i know for a fact i would rather have a fighting chance to kill the person who has griefed me then being hopelessly outclassed. if they ever did a FFA on WAR, which i doubt, they would have to do something like u cant kill people within <>4 levels or something that way everyone has a chance to go all Charles Manson and slaughter anyone they can find within the range, but then people way lower would be safe from retaliation.
Comments
My suggestion would lean towards a semi-FFA server where it was still RVR, but without the ability to toggle pvp on/off outside the RVR/PVP areas. That wouldnt be impossible... just more WAR hehe
The reason people oppose servers they would not play on, is because of a couple of reasons. For one, it takes resources away from the base servers, which means less time is spent on those servers to make them better, run smoother, etc.Another reason would be that it doesn't really fit that well with WAR considering, as much as people want it to be true it isn't, the FFA servers are far less popular than most other servers. On a FFA server for WAR, I would be willing to wager that all the maps would be spread too thin with players fighting and that you would see very little city sieging on these types of servers.
Also, companies don't want to make servers like this unless they are positive that it is going to be a popular enough server, otherwise they would be wasting money on keeping one up. And let's face it, companies don't make games because they are fun all the time, they make them to make as much money as possible. It is a business.
If you want FFA there are plenty of other choices other than hoping a game whos very premise is NON FFA to appeal to a some few who do.
All that matters in the long run is that there will be PvP. The real issue here is what the penalty will be for losing. The only way to make PvP intense (in my opinion) is to either have xp loss or have players able to loot your gear off your corpse.
The former is probably the most viable as you can get xp back. If the grind is hard enough it'll make you fight wisely and with everything you have but won't scare you off from fighting other players.
The latter is an extreme penalty late in the game (not so much at the start when you havn't had the chance to try get some hard-to-obtain gear). I imagine it would make people not want to PvP much at all, but those who do would, I imagine, get a huge rush from it.
Personally I'd like to see an xp loss on death from either PvP or PvE as it adds a certain amount of intensity to fighting. After playing Lineage 2 (I didn't PvP THAT much as it all really took place at the higher levels and I only got to 50-something) and having the reality of DE-levelling looming over your shoulders as you get into a fight makes you fight so much harder and makes it so much more interesting.
I know, however, that this isn't a popular idea in this community. Why, I won't even venture a guess, but from everyone I have talked to it's the people who have played a game with xp loss that love it and the people who have never played a game with xp loss that shun the idea - much like judging a book by it's cover. They only see "XP LOSS" and don't think of the benefits of it.
Do you know how good it feels to win a hard fought fight and know that the losing combatant has just been punished for losing by having some xp stripped (moreso at later levels when xp is harder to come by)? That in itself is a reward and until you experience the thrill of it, your PvP experience (again, IMO) is going to be a bland one.
I like the idea of a little xp loss, as long as you cant lose a level and that the xp loss stops when you havent got any xp. In short - you can only lose xp when your xp > 0.
I'm sorry but are you blind? Do you not know what WAR is? The reason people don't want massive penalties, is because they want to FIGHT. Not avoid fighting till level 50 and then travel in groups of 40 to avoid dieing and de-leveling.
WAR is about WAR!
The issue is people like YOU, aren't true pvps, your griefer. I'm more of a pvper then you because i want to actually fight and fighting is why i do it.
Why would making another players play experience worse, make yours feel better? That's not pvp, that's the mentality of a griefer or a ganker.
If i play counter strike, when i kill a enemy he has to buy his weapons all over again. You may think of that as a penalty, but in all truths it's a balancing act. He can get more weapons immediately and keep fighting.
In a rpg if you lose exp, you actually have to STOP fighting and go grind. In a rpg if you lose gear, you actually have to STOP fighting and go farm.
That's not pvp, that's griefing. Your a griefer.
I'm sorry but are you blind? Do you not know what WAR is? The reason people don't want massive penalties, is because they want to FIGHT. Not avoid fighting till level 50 and then travel in groups of 40 to avoid dieing and de-leveling.
WAR is about WAR!
The issue is people like YOU, aren't true pvps, your griefer. I'm more of a pvper then you because i want to actually fight and fighting is why i do it.
Why would making another players play experience worse, make yours feel better? That's not pvp, that's the mentality of a griefer or a ganker.
If i play counter strike, when i kill a enemy he has to buy his weapons all over again. You may think of that as a penalty, but in all truths it's a balancing act. He can get more weapons immediately and keep fighting.
In a rpg if you lose exp, you actually have to STOP fighting and go grind. In a rpg if you lose gear, you actually have to STOP fighting and go farm.
That's not pvp, that's griefing. Your a griefer.
With a response like that, what are you?
What is odd is he thinks that because he WANTS to fight, that makes him more of a pvp'er than somebody else. I could sit in town for 23 hours out of the day WANTING to fight, doesn't mean I am more of a PvP'er than somebody else.
While I do not mind exp loss, because I have played games with it before, it really separates motivated players from lazy gamers. FFXI was the perfect example for that, back when it first came out the only people over level 50 were people who were actually good at the game and so you knew any party you got into wasn't going to have some idiot pulling the whole zone or any of that noob drama. In a game that is all about PvP, I do not see EXP loss working, hence why they aren't implementing it, but there are ways they could have made it work. They could make it cap out at 10% of your total to next level.
Example: It takes 400 to get to the next level when you first level up.
You die 20 times. Your total to next level becomes 440 now, but would never go beyond that. It would be extra exp you have to gain but nothing huge. Nothing it would take multiple days to make up, and you can never level down.
What EXP Loss is for, which is not the case in WAR, is to promote smarter gameplay in big groups during PVE. WAR isn't exactly a PVE game, which is why it will not work.
~ Ancient Membership ~
Yeah, God forbid they actually make PvP only fun for those that thrive on PvP systems like EQ2, SWG (pre CU jedi death) and the such. I think a lot of posters asking for a dynamic that "will never" be in Warhammer are relying on past experienced PvP games to go off of.This game will cater to all crowds when it comes to RvR and the new dynamic being put in place if you like your coin being stolen and your fat ass PvE lewts being taken after a battle, you are most likely looking at the wrong game "That's EQ2 not Warhammer".
Every incident in this game will have a purpose for PvP/RvR and the sorts it won't cater to griefers with blind EQ2 splendor
It's because this is a old arguement.
Griefing and ganking is different then real pvp.
Sit around "wanting" to pvp? NO i'm out actually pvping in square battles against people, not to make them suffer, but to make myself win.
It's really just a different mentality, if you can't grasp that being a pvper(which i am) and a griefer(which i am not) is a different thing then your blind to the issue.
I grew up playing magic the gathering, with friends, at local tournaments, and with friends(i list this again because this is the majority of what i did). Did we play for each others cards? When I lost did i have to give him some of my deck? When i won did i get to cut up a few of his land cards?
No? Why not? Wouldn't it make it more fun?
Then when i started playing FPS games(i didn't get a pc untill i was 15) i played unreal online like it was going out of style, and eventually moved into half life mods. But the playstyle remained the same, it was still a fight to win, it wasn't about making the other player lose something.
Now you may argue that it isn't about making them lose something, but instead that you feel constantly at risk. While i do agree that this is a valid reason, the thing is, this is a war forum, and we are talking about war. Which is what my post implied. PvP in war is for all levels, and is a main aspect of the game, and is a valid way to play a character. A penalty doesn't make you play smarter, it makes you play less, and makes you choose fights only you can win(which is what leads to griefing and ganking becoming main stream).
You can argue, that you choose fair fights only, and that's what makes it exciting, that's what everyone says, but once you get into the game you see how people truely behave. But in all truths, it's just not what happens.
You mention FFXI, that game is pure pve, and pve is where you lose exp.
I played astonia, as a hardcore character, and let me tell you something, it was more challenging and risky then your "uber risky FFXI". Negative exp which is like a exp loss, and you also dropped your entire inventory. If you were in the middle of pents that required your gear, you'd have to beg for help or you just lost everything. And to make matters worse. You only had 30 minutes.
PvP is seperate from PK. That's a fact.
While I don't mind XP loss there are problems with it. I know one is probably fixable with some coding but in Lineage 2 when you went down a level with XP loss you didn't lose access to your higher level spells so griefers would just delevel and wipe out lower levels with one strike.
L2 actually had a pretty good PvP and XP loss setup (maybe even the best PvP system outside DAoC) apart from that since higher levels incurred penalties for attacking lower levels, of course you got the odd person who didn't mind being KOS to everyone. Item looting is alright but it really needs a way to make your most valuable items bindable to avoid the horrors that come along with looting something sweet then having it stolen two minutes later. Of course I suppose it's possible (if difficult) to code it in a way so that only the person who initiates the fight is lootable or the second party only being lootable if they fight back which makes things more even and encourages putting some more thought into picking your fights.
______________________________
WAR is coming. Look busy.
Whatever makes you happy. All I know is, that I would love to kill guys with that kind of high elf mentality in-game... over, and over, and over, and over... hehe
The game is not about you, it's not about how many people you can kill or what kind of grief you can bestow on others, it's about your realm and fighting to gain control of the battle field to tip the scales in your faction's favor.
You could just go around killing random people if you want, or griefing one guy, but no one's going to care if it's not helpin your realm get closer to the enemy's capitol city.
In WAR the game is all about your faction, you and your fellow realm mates fighting together to take over your enemy's city. Trust me, no one is going to care that you're #1 in number of kills in RvR if you're realm is losing.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
The game is not about you, it's not about how many people you can kill or what kind of grief you can bestow on others, it's about your realm and fighting to gain control of the battle field to tip the scales in your faction's favor.
You could just go around killing random people if you want, or griefing one guy, but no one's going to care if it's not helpin your realm get closer to the enemy's capitol city.
In WAR the game is all about your faction, you and your fellow realm mates fighting together to take over your enemy's city. Trust me, no one is going to care that you're #1 in number of kills in RvR if you're realm is losing.
I know
BE JERKS!
I'm serious..where as the koreans actually have gaming ettiquete, we westerners are more likely to gank each other for looking at our toon funny or if someone gave us the wrong change.. It just won't work over here, we use the internet as an anonymous tool to give others a bad day.... FFA games here tend not to do to well..
BE JERKS!
I'm serious..where as the koreans actually have gaming ettiquete, we westerners are more likely to gank each other for looking at our toon funny or if someone gave us the wrong change.. It just won't work over here, we use the internet as an anonymous tool to give others a bad day.... FFA games here tend not to do to well..
Well... thats kinda stupid TBH. If I wanted to play with ettiquite and not kill whomever I saw fit, then why would I choose a FFA server? Those that do choose the FFA are fully aware of jerks and the change in playstyle.
When I played on Mordred, you were judged by your abilities and how you treated others. Those that killed greys and camped someone for hours without purpose, would get a hard time at later stages by the fact that you would be KOS to many.
Guilds also have a greater impact on the game when playing FFA.
......
Stupid huh? Let me ask you something then.. Name one FFA game thats very popular here in the West.
On the ohter hand I can name you half a dozen Korean FFA MMO's that have double the numbers of most of the major games in America.
You don't seem to get the fact that FFA games DON"T WORK OVER HERE because of the very same reasons you gave for liking them. People don't want to get killed because someone wants to be psychopathic and bloodthirsty at a whim.
How do I put this... as Josh Drescher stated in this thread www.mmo-gamer.com/, your a One percenter one of the hard core. Game companies don't make games for you, they make them to be as enjoyable to as many people as possible to make money.
Now you think that having game ettiquete is ludicrous, yet the server Modred you spoke of, has it seems not done to well (from the comments of the other DaoC players here), and as a matter of fact I never even heard of it before you mentioned it.
There are currently no popular games in the West that are FFA, yet there are dozens of very popular ones in the East, because people don't just kill other people on a random whim.
Your calling the Korean way of FFA stupid yet there are no popular American FFA MMO's or servers, (and I used the words POPULAR). So sure its stupid(to you) but they have the games you want to play, but we Americans don't.
The problem your going to have Zeelot, is that fact that are are the very same thing your names suggest: A Zealot. You want to kill at your whim and be nervous when someone stares at you too long.. the problem is most of the money from MMO's is made from casual gamers who dont thnk that getting killed at random is fun.
Your like the one Cowboys fan at a Redskins home game, and your trying to convince all the Redskins fans why the Cowboys are best.. yet you can't seem to figure out why no one agrees with you that your team is best.
Stupid huh? Let me ask you something then.. Name one FFA game thats very popular here in the West.
ON the ohter hand I can name you half a dozen Korean FFA MMO's that have double the numbers of most of the major games in America.
You don't seem to get the tact that FFA games DON"T WORK OVER HERE because of the very same reasons you gave for liking them. People don't want to get killed because someone wants to be psychopathic and bloodthirsty at a whim.
How do I put this... as Josh Drescher stated in this thread www.mmo-gamer.com/, your a One percenter one of the hard core. Game companies don't make games for you, they make them to be as enjoyable to as many people as possible to make money.
Now you think that having game ettiquete is ludicrous, yet the server Modred you spoke of, has it seems not done to well (from the comments of the other DaoC players here), and as a matter of fact I never even heard of it before you mentioned it.
There are currently no popular games in the West that are FFA, yet there are dozens of very popular ones in the East, because people don't just kill other people on a random whim.
Your calling the Korean way of FFA stupid yet there are no popular American FFA MMO's or servers, (and I used the words POPULAR). So sure its stupid(to you) but they have the games you want to play, but we Americans don't.
The problem your going to have Zeelot, is that fact that are are the very same thing your names suggest: A Zealot. You want to kill at your whim and be nervous when someone stares at you too long.. the problem is most of the money from MMO's is made from casual gamers who dont thnk that getting killed at random is fun.
Your like the one Cowboys fan at a Redskins home game, and your trying to convince all the Redskins fans why the Cowboys are best.. yet you can't seem to figure out why no one agrees with you that your team is best.
and yet...despite all your claims of how FFA PVP servers 'can't' work.... AOC plans on having FFA PVP servers, Darkfall is another, and probably a few others I can't think of.....Sure, the market is smaller....but I think it has room to grow if a well made, designed for FFA PVP from the ground up MMO is ever released....
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I never said they CAN"T work.. I said they DON'T WORK CURRENTLY.
This is the WAR forums. Zeelot has been arguing that a FFA server would be fun and could work in WAR (and from the sounds of it any game).
I was trying to edify him on why FFA games don't tend to work over here. If you find fault with my argument please tell me.
But until Age of Conan comes out and we see how they implement FFA play, its kind of pointless to argue for free for all servers in MMO's when up to this point they have yet to work in our culture.
Thats the point I was trying to get across. Zeelot is the 1% of Westerners who like FFA, and I'm trying to get him to understand why they don't work at the moment , its not because FFA is bad, its because of how are culture reacts to not having any rules, written or unwritten.
Its like a honor bar... in a church you would probably make a lot of money off of it... but if you put it in a office building...
And until we see how AOC and Darkfall do.. I won't be putting any Honor bars in any office buildings anytime soon.
FFA servers do not work in Western MMO's because of griefing and ganking.
The reason why they "work" in Eastern mmo's is because Asian mmo's put in checks and balances to "discourage" griefing. It's not really FFA pvp but without the restrictions in place you end up with griefing and ganking - which as other posters have pointed out only appeals to a very small minority of players.
Personally I like FFA pvp and I'm not a ganker or griefer, I just like the randomness of it.
My favorite pvp mmo of all time is Shadowbane. I keep coming back to it, despite it's outdated graphics. In Shadowbane you lose everything in your inventory (including all of your gold) if you die to another player - sweetness! There's no bad karma if you kill another player, no control clicking to attack another player - just pure pvp sweetness!
But most Western mmo players cry if they lose an item....
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
FFA just does NOT WORK with us westerners, while the Koreans/Japanese have a certain unspoken ettiquite that actually makes those games viable OVER THERE, westerners are prone to...BE JERKS!
I'm serious..where as the koreans actually have gaming ettiquete, we westerners are more likely to gank each other for looking at our toon funny or if someone gave us the wrong change.. It just won't work over here, we use the internet as an anonymous tool to give others a bad day.... FFA games here tend not to do to well..
I agree with you here Tyfreaky, I was an American in a Taiwanese based FFA pvp guild and they had a number of people in the guild and outside that had given rules of initiating PvP fights (mind you they gold farmed to sell it to though).
Most American guilds didn't last long on the servers either due to them handing 90% of the people their asses (due to different guilds teaming) in order to keep them away from the sweet farming spots.
I don't think people (mostly kids) can't get over the e-peen machoism of them actually fighting a player one on one or zerging the hell out of them to try and get a virtual point across.
In DAoC, I remember people announcing who they had actually ganked or killed in chat and guild members asking them "when were going to RvR in order to help the cause" (most of those people bounced from guild to guild until they quit).
Again, I say for the people that think they will be WOW killing crowds of folks in one amazing crit "Starfall hit" and bragging about it they will have a biiiiig suprise in store for them.
EVE.
Should I also mention that even with 'tacked' on FFA servers AC1's FFA server has a higher population now than any of their PVE servers?
Hell, even Vanguards FFA PVP server was popular - even in it's broken, unloved, buggy, unbalanced, third party ripe state.
Nobody's saying that FFA PVP is more popular than PVE...or even watered down PVP, but to say that a FFA PVP game would NOT work in the West is laughable.
the trouble i see with FFA servers is the fact that as the game nears maturity with a fair few players at the top end, u get bored gank squads going around the place killing lower level players because they have nothing else to do, or think its funny to see a character far outclassed get 1 shot, or whatever the motivation is for doing it, and so they will go out and see a low toon grinding xp doing whatever (pve, same level pvp, questing) and will just jump him for no reason and kick his butt, now this is hillarious for the player doing the grief, but for the guy who just got his ass handed to him its not all that fun at all, but people dont stop with killing the once they will stay there and when the poor guy respawns, pow! hes dead again, now say what u will about you not being a griefer and being a pvper, i bet you have gone out when bored to kill a few new toons, just for cracks with a few mates ect dont lie now, because EVERYONE on FFA servers do it at some point :P. The majority of people who play mmo's and play on ffa servers, (i have done from day one with EQ) are not nice people when grouped with friends, i have gone out with a couple of mates to go "pwn the nubs" and yes its fun for a bit , but ive been on the reciving end where ive been a fresh toon and maxxed out people have come along and camped me for 1/2 hour, thats karma, but i know for a fact i would rather have a fighting chance to kill the person who has griefed me then being hopelessly outclassed. if they ever did a FFA on WAR, which i doubt, they would have to do something like u cant kill people within <>4 levels or something that way everyone has a chance to go all Charles Manson and slaughter anyone they can find within the range, but then people way lower would be safe from retaliation.