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Why Vanguard was headed for the rocks from the beginning
Amathe
Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
EQ was a small game that grew big. Even so, it cost $8 million initially to make.
WoW was a medium sized game that grew bigger. It cost over $80 million to make.
With Vanguard, Sigil wanted everything to be HUGE. A much bigger world than most mmos had ever had. More classes. More races. More abilities. More systems. More photorealism. More of everything. Whatever the game feature or system was, Sigil wanted it bigger and better than anyone had seen before.
Yet they only had $30 million to work with ...
Now, if they had been managed well, and had stayed on target and seperated the wheat from the chaff, they could have done it. Evidence EVE Online. But they were not managed well; they did not stay on target; and they wasted a lot of their development money and could not meet their timelines or benchmarks.
That meant that in order to deliver the game they envisioned, they needed a lot more money and a lot more time. But when Brad went looking for more money, it wasn't there. That left them no alternative but to have a fire sale of Sigil to SOE, and to rush the game out far short of what they envisioned.
In many ways the course of this game tracks the course of Dark & Light, which made most of the same mistakes with most of the same results. The bottom line is, $30 million + lofty, impractical goals + poor management doomed this game from day 1.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Comments
How do you think the game would be if they had an additional 50 mil and time to finish?
What if Microsoft had taken Games for Windows seriousely and made the attempt to produce a AAA game? What if VG was treated like the oblivion of MMO's?
My opinion, MS is just as much to blame as any of the upper management at Sigil.
Think about this. MS is pushing thier Games for Windows; trying to get people hyped about playing PC games. They were going to make PC gaming what console gaming is today. They were going to give PC games the SAME love and care that they give Consoles. Has it happened? Vista? Flunk! This was supposed to be a big part of Games for Windows, and it couldn't even get out the door running right. Vista was supposed to Microsofts version of Xbox360 gaming; and they didn't see through on that. xbox PoP and floor spacing is insane. Games for Windows got what? A sign?
What game is MS making? So PC gaming is supposed to be taken to the next level, and given as much attention as console gaming for Halo? Ok.
MS f'd up just as much as the people at Sigil did. They both know it.
Edit: Oh my point. If MS had invested just a small fraction of what they invested in the 360, imagine what Vanguard could have been as a primere title in the Games for Windows line up.
Wish Darkfall would release.
This is what I got from all the interviews..
1) Brad ran Sigil like everyone was his best friend instead of running it like he was the boss and they were the employee..
2) Microsoft didnt live up to there promoise of financing the project which left Sigil at the mercey of SOE..
1+2 = Disaster
Pretty simple....
Sorry dude. As soon as you compared Eve Online production costs to VG, your argument crumbled for me.
Eve online (undisputably incredible as it is) is so unbelievably simple in it's engine and framework it simply does not compare to a server which is strained trying to create a real life environment with moving entities.
My personal opinion is that Eve online has actually been very pooly designed. Jita fills with 600 people and all of a sudden it's lag like you've never experienced. Not very cool at al imo...
I do agree however that VG is worthy of a much larger budget considering it's levels of ambition.
Not quite. While 1 is correct, 2 isn't.
Microsoft funded Sigil and Vanguard for over four years, and to the tune of over $30 million. They looked at what they were getting after all that time and money spent, and decided it was no longer worth it because of the state of the game that they saw. Simply put-- they agreed to fund the game, but they never signed a blank check, and they weren't about to allow themselves to be used as an ATM machine, with Sigil being able to draw money at will.
They looked at the game after all that time and money spent, didn't like what they saw, and cut their losses. But that wasn't anyone's fault except Sigil's. If they'd been developing a game that was shaping up to be a top-notch game, the money would have been there.
SOE only came in after Microsoft cut off funding, and Brad was unable to secure any funding elsewhere. It was a desperation move by Sigil, and nothing more.
If your comments are based purely on the Brad interview where he tries to spin the fact that microsoft wanted results too early you really need to read some of the interviews posted by ex Sigil employees, they truely are eye openers.
If your comments are based purely on the Brad interview where he tries to spin the fact that microsoft wanted results too early you really need to read some of the interviews posted by ex Sigil employees, they truely are eye openers.
You mean the tasteless interview on f13.com with the pissed off ex-employee of Sigil?
Wish Darkfall would release.
If your comments are based purely on the Brad interview where he tries to spin the fact that microsoft wanted results too early you really need to read some of the interviews posted by ex Sigil employees, they truely are eye openers.
You mean the tasteless interview on f13.com with the pissed off ex-employee of Sigil?
Tasteless? The ex-employee was actually civil with everything he said, including his comment about Brad. Honestly I believe there was more truth to that interview then Brad's one.If your comments are based purely on the Brad interview where he tries to spin the fact that microsoft wanted results too early you really need to read some of the interviews posted by ex Sigil employees, they truely are eye openers.
You mean the tasteless interview on f13.com with the pissed off ex-employee of Sigil?
Tasteless? The ex-employee was actually civil with everything he said, including his comment about Brad. Honestly I believe there was more truth to that interview then Brad's one.Read like a bitter, I'll get you back kind of moment to me.
Wish Darkfall would release.
If your comments are based purely on the Brad interview where he tries to spin the fact that microsoft wanted results too early you really need to read some of the interviews posted by ex Sigil employees, they truely are eye openers.
You mean the tasteless interview on f13.com with the pissed off ex-employee of Sigil?
Tasteless? The ex-employee was actually civil with everything he said, including his comment about Brad. Honestly I believe there was more truth to that interview then Brad's one.Read like a bitter, I'll get you back kind of moment to me.
Well, obviously. Anyone who got fired in the manner those employees did, on the spot in a damn car park thanks to the failure mangement of certain CEOs, would be bitter. Wouldn't you?
If your comments are based purely on the Brad interview where he tries to spin the fact that microsoft wanted results too early you really need to read some of the interviews posted by ex Sigil employees, they truely are eye openers.
You mean the tasteless interview on f13.com with the pissed off ex-employee of Sigil?
Tasteless? The ex-employee was actually civil with everything he said, including his comment about Brad. Honestly I believe there was more truth to that interview then Brad's one.Read like a bitter, I'll get you back kind of moment to me.
Well, obviously. Anyone who got fired in the manner those employees did, on the spot in a damn car park thanks to the failure mangement of certain CEOs, would be bitter. Wouldn't you?
IBM is laying off like 15k people. My brother who just had a child a few months ago is one of the ones being laid off. He has to sell his house that he purchased with his wife a few years ago if he can't get a job someplace else before he's officially let go.
He hasn't done any interviews to my recollection though.
Wish Darkfall would release.
I feel for your brother - I have 4 kids and if I lost my job I would be selling my house as well.
However your brother probably didnt have to work 80 to 100 hours weeks for 15 months with no overtime to release a substandard product, then spend 3 months trying to fix all the problems only to get fired in the car park.
He also probably knew that IBM was talking about laying off large numbers of staff well ahead of time. Unlike the staff at Sigil.
As for Microsoft - I doubt they signed an agreement to provide unlimited funds and time in the hope of getting a AAA mmorpg. Four years and $30 million dollars seems like plenty of time to get some results.
At the end of the day - thats how business works. I know someone who worked on a software project for a Bank - after 18 months and a couple of million dollars the bank cancelled the project.
Games Workshop cancelled their first MMORPG after spending something like $10 million on it.
Mythic cancelled Imperator - no idea how much money they spent on it.
Sigil were just lucky that the market accepts games released in a shoddy state. If it was non-gaming software it would never have seen the light of day.
You can gloss over the mismanagement and nepotism all you wish, but Sigil was a dysfunctional company that was led by a self-absorbed individual who thinks his "vision" is as important as the Polio vaccine or the splitting of the atom.
There are a few different things going on in this thread. What I guess jumps out at me is this:
Microsoft is a large corporation and its a publicly traded company. Which translates into "it has share holders".
Some corporations have a bit more to answer to than others. By that you can directly translate it to apply to corporations that are involved with MMO's.
I'm not sure if Mythic had share holders before they were sold to EA.
As an example BioWare is a privately held company.
Regardless when you deal with large corporations you have milestones. When those aren't met at some point funding will stop, period end of story. There won't be any speculation as to what more funding may or may not do. Your stockholders expect a certain dividend on their investment.
(I'd rather not discuss consoles.. because from what I've seen MS and Sony both lose money on them and I don't really relate to consoles anyway).
"Games for Windows" .. I'm not really sure how that relates to MS + Vanguard = being serious.
Lord of the Rings online has a "games for windows" sticker. Which is the only part of that program I'm aware of. Other than the fact that Vanguard did not meet 1 of the criteria listed to get that sticker. Games for Windows isn't a program for microsoft to develop their own titles under. Its a set of requirements so that when you buy a game with the sticker.. its supposed to work (more or less..).
Beyond the fact that people lost their jobs I'm not sure why we have to argue and put bitter statements out there.
Who is to blame? Why would any one person or some other company be to blame? When you look at all the distractions that were going on in the management level of Sigil... it should be quite clear. The company and its employees cannot function to the degree they have to.. when leadership is distracted from doing what it should.. which is to lead.
There was more than just Brad at the top of the food chain. It wasn't anyone person.. but before trying to apply blame to:
1) Microsoft
2) SOE
3) any one person
You quite clearlly only need to look at Sigils management to see where the problems started.
*edited to add*
The reason I mentioned Mythic at the start was somewhat in reply to a previous post.
Mythic more or less put Imperator on hold because they were already negotiating the deal for WAR.
EA is a good example of what happens in a corporate setting when goals aren't met:
Earth and Beyond, UO2, UxO. among others.
Microsoft has had other projects that were stopped as well.
Mythica I don't count since it was mostly shutdown after the lawsuit was started by Mythic.
Basicly Vanguard was pretty lucky to see light of day. Personally its not my kind of game. Yet I would rather have had it been successful.. as I don't actually enjoy the idea of people losing their jobs.
In fact why even argue about the game? The biggest issue for me is that people lost their jobs and I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
You can gloss over the mismanagement and nepotism all you wish, but Sigil was a dysfunctional company that was led by a self-absorbed individual who thinks his "vision" is as important as the Polio vaccine or the splitting of the atom.
So you don't think that more time, money, and attention from MS wouldn't have helped the game? Do you think that if MS and Sigil had never split that the game wouldn't be any better?
Are you familliar with the Games for Windows campaign that MS was "supposed" to undertake?
Who said anything about success?
Also, you may recall that pretty much everyone has said the same thing. Everything went downhill after the MS/ Sigil split, and that was when Brad disappeared and the management in place wasn't getting the job done. I wonder if the need to find money might have preoccupied Mcquaid just a bit? The game release unfinished because of money, they ran out of money because they split from thier primary backer. The tone had been for quite some time now. NOT ENOUGH MONEY.
I'm sorry, but I really do believe that if MS had stayed the course with VG and dedicated themselves to making a AAA game, then VG would be in a MUCH better state then it is today, and possibley even compete with WoW.
Wish Darkfall would release.
I most certainly believe, on the other hand, that if WoW's dev team came out and said "We're going to build the biggest, best game ever. Fund us", that they would be allotted seemingly infinite resources. They've established they know what they're doing, and consistent success speaks louder than any bold proclamation (ala Brad).
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
Vanguard was supposed to be a AAA title under the Games for Windows logo. At some point MS didn't just back off of VG to focus on the 360, they backed off the Games for Windows marketting all together.
It's not really an MMO thing, but a PC gaming thing that bugs me with MS and why I mention it. I feel like the largest software company in the world turned thier backs on PC gaming in favor of thier console. The Games for Windows we got is NOTHING compared to what MS was saying they were going to do.
I just find it odd that while the space that MS is going after in retail chains for thier console keeps growing, all the PC space in those same stores is slowly shrinking; to the point that the Gamestops around me have stopped selling PC games, and best buy has cut back it's available space for PC gaming. Just seems to look like MS isn't to interested in doing anything serious with PC gaming.
It's cool though. SoE owns VG now and at this point I like them better then MS.
Also, I don't blame MS for VG's woahs. Lots of people carry that weight, from Brad on down and out the sides as well.
As far as people losing thier jobs. Crap happens, every second. I'm sorry they lost thier jobs, but its the way the software industry is.
I've given this example before. A friend is told he'll be laid off in 6 months. 3 months in he's told that he'll be training the guy that's taking his job until he's let go. They outsourced his department to a company in India. He's a programmer and was debugging for a company; the guy that was taking his job didn't even know how to do it. Personally, I'll take being fired in a parking lot over training an unqualified person to do my job because he take half the money.
Yeah, working for a living pretty much sucks.
Edit: My brother was told 2 days in advance that he would be losing his job. His boss has managed to keep him on for about a week now, but it's just a matter of time. My brother doesn't work with code though, hes a network and IT guy, so telling him in advance doesn't really do much but piss him off. He can't mess up the network. Now a programmer on the other hand can do quite a bit in just a few minutes if they wanted to. I don't agree with the parking lot thing, but I understand why a software company would ensure that no one losing thier job was around the code when they were fired.
Wish Darkfall would release.
Why would it be MS fault? Would u continue to fund someone who cant manage for crap with half of workers not doing anything but collecting paychecks?
That sentiment seems to be a common theme.
Let's put this into a bit of perspective here.
Blizzard used 80 mil and what, 4 years?
In that equivilent time, Sigil, building a vastly larger world, with more features had less then half that budget. Ones again money appears as an underlying problem. Look at what they did with just 30 mil.
Do people really think that a game considerabley larger then WoW with more features should have been good to go with less then half the budget? Not to mention, none of us knows what was going on while they were at MS, and I would have to lean more towards what Mcquaid had to say then a pissed off guy that just lost his job, with no real knowledge of what upper management is doing.
30 mil, give me a break. If MS wanted to see more results they should have allocated more funding in that amount of time. What was one of the things the angry coder said? They had no developement tools? Hmm, I wonder if Sigil couldn't afford it on the budget they were given.
Edit: Oh, I didn't say it was all MS's fault, just that they weren't faultless.
Wish Darkfall would release.
It's like I said before, Sigil hadn't established themselves. Were I in MS's shoes, I would not have given them more than 30 million either.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
I can understand that.
To me though, it seemed like MS wasn't even looking at what they had. Consider how the game was released and then consider that MS wanted the game out the door in July of '06. Come on, someone at MS had to look at it and, yeah, umm, no way this will be ready.
MS knew what they were getting into. Independant company aside, MS stuck with them for how many years, and through most of their time together they though they could compete against a game that cost 80 mil to produce, and on less then half the budget?
I just can't see any way of looking at that and thinking, dang, that's stupid. MS should've been smarter then that.
Dedicating assets to something and then deciding later down the line that maybe you don't want to do this is just bad management on both sides of the fence. MS for not seeing it through, and Sigil for not ensuring that they keep MS attention till the end.
Wish Darkfall would release.
1. Free yourself
2. 3rd gen mmorpg
3. Brad's vision
all lies.
I can understand that.
To me though, it seemed like MS wasn't even looking at what they had. Consider how the game was released and then consider that MS wanted the game out the door in July of '06. Come on, someone at MS had to look at it and, yeah, umm, no way this will be ready.
MS knew what they were getting into. Independant company aside, MS stuck with them for how many years, and through most of their time together they though they could compete against a game that cost 80 mil to produce, and on less then half the budget?
I just can't see any way of looking at that and thinking, dang, that's stupid. MS should've been smarter then that.
Dedicating assets to something and then deciding later down the line that maybe you don't want to do this is just bad management on both sides of the fence. MS for not seeing it through, and Sigil for not ensuring that they keep MS attention till the end.
Every game company does that, there's dozens and dozens of game companies that start building, get investors start spending money, start dedicating assets to things, and then when a milestone hits and its missed and repeatedly missed or repeatedly fails to please investors someone has to eventually cut the ties.
Vanguard wasn't mismanaged by Microsoft, they're severly stringent there, they have a realistic view on whats going to make it and whats not. The vanguard team was made up of industry veterans but their managers, their 'big wigs' as to say were NOT management types. Brad failed he was in control but he's an artist a designer he needed someone to manage and to lead.
Im not a microsoft fan but the companies that have put out games for them are excellent. Sigil just wasnt' up to par. Infact this is what the 3rd or 4th attempt at an MMO break out by Microsoft that they've cut off (they cut off several xbox mmo titles for similiar or unknown reasons not to mention the mess up with AC 2)
Microsoft has the money to spend, they blue several millions on a game purely based on the fact its was being designed by Brad. Names can be really important high up on the ladder. Like everyone worshiping George Lucas then he fed us some Jar Jar Binks bullshit. Sometimes what made the name famous screws the name over in the end.
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!