Originally posted by healz4u I hope you have a good time and enjoy yourself in vanguard or any game you play.
As for me, Vanguard is the only game I really enjoy since Everquest 1. When I first played the game at release, my performance was (in a single word) atrocious. Today, my performance is solid. I enjoy the content and gameplay.
I think it is important not to be afraid to travel, to explore and see the world, and experience different content. Vanguard is not forced/linear. In fact, you do not have to do certain dungeons (I skipped Keager's End (sp?) entirely). Nevertheless, some dungeons I did enjoy experiencing and others I avoided.
Good luck!!
I am dying to know, and I hope you know I don't mean this in any malicious way, but I want to ask you what is so great about Vanguard? I have seen you talk a great deal about how well you like this game. What sets it apart from WoW or EQII, which, to my mind, have a very similar world. Lore is important to me though, for roleplaying purposes; if you like it for that reason, I would probably love to hear that more than anything.
EDIT:
Originally posted by manzene
Yeah, I actually would - if someone took $85 from me they would have essentially bought themselves some new front teeth for that price.
You are a very creepy person and have just become blocked by me. I worry about people like you who would do violence in retaliation for a poor business choice. I wonder why people hate SOE so much; some people clearly really like them. But I bet your bark is worse than you bite in any case.
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
OP you allowed SOE to take you. You represent the customers who allow companies like SOE to keep ripping off the public. Without supporters like you, they would be forced out of the MMOG market. Have you bothered to read these forums? I see the new excuse for not holding SOE equally accountable for Vanguard's dismal condition is that they just took it over and need time to fix it. Pray tell what is the statute of limitations before SOE can be blamed? I suspect the fanbois and SOE shills will continue to think of new excuses. When you comment about an SOE product or SOE in a positive light, you might want to be honest and include a disclaimer identifying yourself as an employee, paid or volunteer notwithstanding.
wait...this is crazy.
SOE saved this game from financial ruin and you're talking about that he "represent customers who allow companies like SOE to keep ripping off the public"
1. First of all, if SOE didnt buy out Vanguard, Vanguard would have a continual growth and existance over a little less than a year before Sigil went bankrupt (because no one else would have bought it. The next biggest MMO company is Blizzard followed by NCSoft. I am sorry..they are not in the business of saving 3rd party MMOs like SOE is).
2. Second of all, by playing Vanguard right now, you are catering to the SOE corporate evilness right now. So, by your own standards you are breaking your own rules
I don't currently play Vanguard, why the assumption?
Vanguard should not have been released unfinished, at least not with a fee until it was ready. If that meant that it would have never been released, then so be it. How is ripping people off of $50 a good thing? There are plenty of MMOGs out there, we don't need to save Vanguard for a possible turnaround which frankly is very much in doubt.
OP you allowed SOE to take you. You represent the customers who allow companies like SOE to keep ripping off the public. Without supporters like you, they would be forced out of the MMOG market. Have you bothered to read these forums? I see the new excuse for not holding SOE equally accountable for Vanguard's dismal condition is that they just took it over and need time to fix it. Pray tell what is the statute of limitations before SOE can be blamed? I suspect the fanbois and SOE shills will continue to think of new excuses. When you comment about an SOE product or SOE in a positive light, you might want to be honest and include a disclaimer identifying yourself as an employee, paid or volunteer notwithstanding.
I don't currently play Vanguard, why the assumption?
Vanguard should not have been released unfinished, at least not with a fee until it was ready. If that meant that it would have never been released, then so be it. How is ripping people off of $50 a good thing? There are plenty of MMOGs out there, we don't need to save Vanguard for a possible turnaround which frankly is very much in doubt.
Where is that disclaimer?
Samuraisword sounds like you allowed SOE to take you. I, personally, did my research, played the open beta, knew about the bugs and performance issues and as an informed consumer still decided VSoH was worth my 50$ and 15$ a month. Why is that so hard for people to understand? It's a free country, I owe the mmo community nothing. It is not my duty to abstain from a game I like because there are problems with it you can't see past. SOE/Sigil/VSoH did not rip people off. I'll repeat for effect - DID NOT RIP PEOPLE OFF. And here is why....Gamers ALLOWED THEMSELVES to get ripped off. There was more than enough info before release, not only in gaming forums but info released by Sigil that would tell you exactly what features were not in, bad performance, etc. Stop saying the company was at fault for your poor decision in the store to pick up a shiny box of a game you knew nothing about.
You may be right...if every mmo gamer banded together and did a mass boycott of a game because it was released with bugs, the company may well fold....heck, Sigil did fold. But if your 'Coalition of the Duped' succeeds, who will be your leader? Who will get to decide whether a game is buyable or not? Will you be the one to determine the level of acceptable bugs for purchase? What will be the standard? Does the game have to be completely bug free or can it contain some bugs? Who gets to decide if the bug makes the game 'unplayable'. What if I can stand crashing to desktop once a week, but for you that's a game breaker? Will I get to decide if the game is playable or will you get to? Who will become the MMO Czar giving their seal of approval to what comes out of my wallet?
But as to playing one of the of mmo's out there without bugs I say this: could i build my own house in WoW? Can I have a shadowhound mount in EQ2? Can I play a bloodmage in Everquest? The answer is obviously 'no'. There may be plenty of polished mmo's out there, but none of them can do or has plans to do what Vanguard is doing. I'm not going back to the other games simply because they have less bugs. Sorry, but I can see past the bugs and performance and enjoy the features I can only find in Vanguard. You cannot. Isn't freedom wonderful? Aren't you glad we live in a country where I don't tell you how to spend your money and you don't tell me....or wait...you are telling me how to spend my money....lemme rephrase, aren't you glad you live in a free country where you can spout off uninformed directives to other people? I certainly am glad that I am free to laugh at you for trying.
I looked at the whole thing from this perspective.....
If any game I beta tested said this to me, "The game isn't finished, it's a little buggy and there are some performance issues, would you as a beta tester be willing to pay 15 bucks a month while we fix these problems, so that when they are fixed you can keep the uber toon you have been working on rather than wiping the game once it is polished?" My answer would have been 'Yes, no question."
I can't answer that question for you, but I suspect thousands and maybe tens of thousands of people would have jumped at that opportunity. In fact, seems like about 90,000 people did say, 'yes' to Vanguard.
See that's the beauty of a free society. I am free to spend my dollars how I want. I am satisfied with my purchase of VSoH. I believe it was money well spent. You on the other hand are free NOT to spend your money on Vanguard, but In fact, it sounds like you freely bought the game without any research or sense of 'buyer beware' (an old American adage modern consumers seem to be forgetting). You are also free to tell me how to spend my money, but thankfully I am free not to listen to you. Even Vanguard was free to promote its product how it saw fit. There is freedom everywhere. But the idea, that I must lay down my opinion, stop playing a game that I find entertaining just because you felt duped due to your own lack of research before buying Vanguard....that doesn't sound like freedom. Sounds more like people trying to blame others for their own mistakes and need validation by gathering with other people who made the same stupid impulse buy.
What I suggest to you haters is this....don't form a coalition to bring down mmo companies that release unpolished games...instead form a therapy group where you can get together and learn how not to make uninformed purchases in the future. 'Cuz you haters need some help, not a revolution.
Last point:
This upswell of people who have a new cause to bring down mmo's because they don't meet your requirements is truly something one has to take notice of. Just think, if you got this angry about world hunger, tyrannical governments, racism, etc. etc. then perhaps we could see some positive change in the world...but sadly, you guys are focusing on bringing down computer game companies instead; and if in 20 years you can look back and say, 'I made a difference in the world, I convinced people to stop playing Vanguard'. You had a sad life pal.
This ends todays civic lesson. Be responsible with your own freedom, respect the freedom of others.
You could have saved yourself all that writing and speech. I just want my $50 bucks back. Everything you said can continue on and you can have your freedom to choose, but that doesn't prevent or relinquish SOE/Sigil's responsibility to offer refunds since they knew and admitted they released an unfinished product.
You could have saved yourself all that writing and speech. I just want my $50 bucks back. Everything you said can continue on and you can have your freedom to choose, but that doesn't prevent or relinquish SOE/Sigil's responsibility to offer refunds since they knew and admitted they released an unfinished product.
Missed a central point:
You don't get your money back, because they knew and admitted they had an unfinished product BEFORE release.
So again, buyer beware.
You can't get your money back if they disclose their products failings prior to your purchase. If you didn't know before your wallet openned that Vanguard was buggy, you weren't paying attention.
It is 100% your fault for buying Vanguard, not anyone elses.
You could have saved yourself all that writing and speech. I just want my $50 bucks back. Everything you said can continue on and you can have your freedom to choose, but that doesn't prevent or relinquish SOE/Sigil's responsibility to offer refunds since they knew and admitted they released an unfinished product.
Missed a central point:
You don't get your money back, because they knew and admitted they had an unfinished product BEFORE release.
So again, buyer beware.
You can't get your money back if they disclose their products failings prior to your purchase. If you didn't know before your wallet openned that Vanguard was buggy, you weren't paying attention.
It is 100% your fault for buying Vanguard, not anyone elses.
I don't believe it and never saw it until after the fact when Brad admitted it.
Please provide a link by SOE or Sigil showing a statement was made prior to launch that the game was being released incomplete.
You could have saved yourself all that writing and speech. I just want my $50 bucks back. Everything you said can continue on and you can have your freedom to choose, but that doesn't prevent or relinquish SOE/Sigil's responsibility to offer refunds since they knew and admitted they released an unfinished product.
Missed a central point:
You don't get your money back, because they knew and admitted they had an unfinished product BEFORE release.
So again, buyer beware.
You can't get your money back if they disclose their products failings prior to your purchase. If you didn't know before your wallet openned that Vanguard was buggy, you weren't paying attention.
It is 100% your fault for buying Vanguard, not anyone elses.
I don't believe it and never saw it until after the fact when Brad admitted it.
Please provide a link by SOE or Sigil showing a statement was made prior to launch that the game was being released incomplete.
Well, seeing as how the original site and forums no longer exists (since the developing company doesn't exist anymore either) the easy link I was going to give you pointed out for example that the 'inquisitor' class would not be ready for release. I was also going to link to the official 'performance issues' sticky from those forums, but they have been taken down as well. Then there was the post all over gaming forums from Brad McQuaid himself BEFORE release that stated something to the effect of "we ran out of money, we had to release". But those were definately sources straight from the horses mouth. Then I realized......
Why am I doing your research for you? Wasn't this your central problem in the first place, you didn't do your research.
I'm not doing your research for you. You need to do it yourself. It will save you money on your future game purchases. Or instead, you can blindly spend your money, get pissed at the company and then scream in gaming forums the injustices you've endured...
I'll even give you a head start, skip to pre-release posts from this forum. There you will find mountains of information, even some Sigil employee posts that acknowledge the games issues. Seems odd that you are a poster at mmorpg and somehow didn't have a clue that Vanguard had issues before release.
Can anyone else back me up here? Especially from the haters....you need to let this guy know he was living in a cave somewhere to not know Vanguard wasn't ready. I simply don't believe there is any way even if you had done the simplest of research you could have missed that Vanguard wasn't optimized for release.
And since you gave me a project in your last post, I'll give you one...any rebuttal should include a link proving that Sigil did not admit the 'Inquisitor' wasn't ready for release and/or a link showing proof that there wasn't a 'performance issue' forum from the pre-release website.
P.S. Looking back through this post, a whole lot of people have raked you over the coals for that original post, if you still can't see the problem is your own - I'm sorry.
OP you allowed SOE to take you. You represent the customers who allow companies like SOE to keep ripping off the public. Without supporters like you, they would be forced out of the MMOG market. Have you bothered to read these forums? I see the new excuse for not holding SOE equally accountable for Vanguard's dismal condition is that they just took it over and need time to fix it. Pray tell what is the statute of limitations before SOE can be blamed? I suspect the fanbois and SOE shills will continue to think of new excuses. When you comment about an SOE product or SOE in a positive light, you might want to be honest and include a disclaimer identifying yourself as an employee, paid or volunteer notwithstanding.
Sorry man couldn't resist after re-reading. You admit that you have been following these forums, and yet still you claim you had no idea about the games issues prior to release.......
So tell me again....are you sure it's the fanbois scrambling for new excuses?
OP you allowed SOE to take you. You represent the customers who allow companies like SOE to keep ripping off the public. Without supporters like you, they would be forced out of the MMOG market. Have you bothered to read these forums? I see the new excuse for not holding SOE equally accountable for Vanguard's dismal condition is that they just took it over and need time to fix it. Pray tell what is the statute of limitations before SOE can be blamed? I suspect the fanbois and SOE shills will continue to think of new excuses. When you comment about an SOE product or SOE in a positive light, you might want to be honest and include a disclaimer identifying yourself as an employee, paid or volunteer notwithstanding.
Sorry man couldn't resist after re-reading. You admit that you have been following these forums, and yet still you claim you had no idea about the games issues prior to release.......
So tell me again....are you sure it's the fanbois scrambling for new excuses?
Why are you out 50$? Still 100% your fault.
ahh... personal accountability!
I like this idea!
Might not sit well with the blame culture of the US tho? It's always someone elses fault right?
Is SOE/Sigil being responsible for knowingly releasing an unfinished product or do they blame the customer for not researching some forum archives to hear about it from non employees?
Both. If either party had fulfilled their part then we wouldnt be having this conversation
So any consumer who buys a product that was fraudulently advertised by the manufacturer, yet denounced by a few "in the know" whistleblowers, is partially responsible for not digging for the facts ahead of time? I don't think so.
There are clear consumer fraud laws and false advertising is at the top of the list. Logic dictates if you sell a product, then it's expected to be complete and fully functional.
Since SOE/Sigil are the ones profiting from the relationship, the impetus is on them to be forthright.
If I was in a store and decided to buy a new $50 mixer....should I leave that store, drive home, get on my computer and scower the internet forums looking for any info on that mixer?
If I was in a store and decided to buy a new $50 mixer....should I leave that store, drive home, get on my computer and scower the internet forums looking for any info on that mixer?
No, you would have been wise to type a search on that mixer *before* you went out to buy it. The interweb is full of really useful reviews on just about everything!
People who bought this game obviously have internet connections.. there is no reason, except laziness or an acute case of tunnel vision, that they couldnt be armed with info about what they are buying with very little time invested. Certainly less time then spending the next 3 months whining about 'being cheated' on gaming forums anyhow.
Really guys, there is no excuse for being ignorant about any product on the market these days...
So, yes. The blame is half theirs for releasing crap, and half yours for being too lazy to type in one or two key words and do a little reading.
You could have saved yourself all that writing and speech. I just want my $50 bucks back. Everything you said can continue on and you can have your freedom to choose, but that doesn't prevent or relinquish SOE/Sigil's responsibility to offer refunds since they knew and admitted they released an unfinished product.
I would try to sue Sigil for my money back I was you.
Im sure SOE signed away any clauses that makes them not responsible for any ills Sigil has committed. But then again, good luck suing for your money back. The only successful refund I have ever seen was the Trials (3rd expansion for SWG) and thats because of the whole stupid NGE debacle.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
They don't have to release a finished copy. Do you think Windows is a finished copy when its released? No you get updates until the end of time. Just when a product reaches a certain part in its production they release it and will fix it as it goes. Why it says game is subject to change with online play meaning it will change if its messed up.
i played open beta and i read up on the game myself. as i do with all games before i spend my hard earned money. and i found that the issues was to much for me to spend my money on. the game looks good and had a great idea but so did horizons and they failed to deliver. remeber fable all the things that were supposed to be in that game that were not . you really should read up on games before you buy them. that's why there are so many review sites out there. im not bashing anyone for buying this game or for not buying it. just saying there is no way you can get your money back. when the info was out there and you just didnt look.
i played open beta and i read up on the game myself. as i do with all games before i spend my hard earned money. and i found that the issues was to much for me to spend my money on. the game looks good and had a great idea but so did horizons and they failed to deliver. remeber fable all the things that were supposed to be in that game that were not . you really should read up on games before you buy them. that's why there are so many review sites out there. im not bashing anyone for buying this game or for not buying it. just saying there is no way you can get your money back. when the info was out there and you just didnt look.
I agree but i dont know of anything that VG had that it didnt deliever on except performance. Almost everything that I read that was going to be in the game is well in the game. Diplomacy, crafting, adventuring, building ships and houses its in there. just performance is everyones grip with this game. if it played at a normal fps all these hate post would be decreased to just people who hate SOE.
i dont get why ppl hate soe so bad eq1 great game eq2 was soso. i dont like star wars so that was a no brainer for me. i guess cause they make games where you keep having to spend money on but isn't that true with all games?
I spent most of yesterday downloading it and now I'm patching it. I'm in such a bad way with MMOs at the moment so I'm kind of clamoring for something ... anything that will hook me. I have tried: Everquest, Everquest 2, VG:SoH, CoH, Ryzom, Horizons, DAoC (resubbed 4 times), Neocron 2, EVE (had 6 accounts at one point), Asheron's Call, Ultima Online, DDO, Auto Assault, Guild Wars, Lineage II, LOTRO, Ragnarok Online (private server), Second Life, SWG (both before and after CU/NGE), WWII Online, and WoW. That's 21 MMO's that I've tried and only WoW, DAoC, EVE, and Ultima Online were able to keep my interest for more than a couple days. Why? Because these games really make you feel like you're a very small cog in a very large machine. Like there is a MASSIVE amount of world just waiting for you to discover it. Those games, for me, had the secret spice that caused me to *want* to level and *want* to get to the end.
welcome to the club dude lmao!! u and just about everyone on this forum probably has and does feel that way. hell i know i do, so yeah i can definitely feel ya pain.
im in the ripe old age in my veteranacy with MMO's where frankly there isnt any MMO's that keeps my attention for long. i also tried almost everyt MMO you listed as well. WOW, eve and Eq2 are the only ones that ill admit kept me focused near the end.
Lineage 2 i even got far in until i got fed up with haveing to spend a fortune that equates to the GNP of a small european country lol.
SWG is the only one I stayed off and on for 3+ years (though i handed in the towel around NGE though i came back here and there so i didnt feel i was being biased) its tragic, cause frankly SWG unlike most had a true sandbox feeling to it. EVE is also very sandbox but can be deathly boring not to mention you have to watch ya back 24/7 for gate campers in 0.0 space. but otherwise awesome PVP, and ratting and easily the most non-linear open experience if you dont jump out the window from sheer boredom that blows over you from time to time.
Im holding out for the next set to come out, AOC, Taba ralusa, and Warhammer Online. but those are a bit of a ways off.
3.4ghz Phenom II X4 965, 8GB PC12800 DDR3 GSKILL, EVGA 560GTX 2GB OC, 640GB HD SATA II, BFG 1000WATT PSU. MSI NF980-G65 TRI-SLI MOBO.
You could have saved yourself all that writing and speech. I just want my $50 bucks back. Everything you said can continue on and you can have your freedom to choose, but that doesn't prevent or relinquish SOE/Sigil's responsibility to offer refunds since they knew and admitted they released an unfinished product.
I would try to sue Sigil for my money back I was you.
Im sure SOE signed away any clauses that makes them not responsible for any ills Sigil has committed. But then again, good luck suing for your money back. The only successful refund I have ever seen was the Trials (3rd expansion for SWG) and thats because of the whole stupid NGE debacle.
you guys can try rappelz it is a fun game gets kinda boring since they have not put in 2nd jobs yet but they are supposed to add them soon like with in the the next month. i enjoyed it for about 3 months before i got bored. cabal comes out soon f2p 2 moons july 30th. but other than that not a whole lot to choose from that is any good imo
You could have saved yourself all that writing and speech. I just want my $50 bucks back. Everything you said can continue on and you can have your freedom to choose, but that doesn't prevent or relinquish SOE/Sigil's responsibility to offer refunds since they knew and admitted they released an unfinished product.
I would try to sue Sigil for my money back I was you.
Im sure SOE signed away any clauses that makes them not responsible for any ills Sigil has committed. But then again, good luck suing for your money back. The only successful refund I have ever seen was the Trials (3rd expansion for SWG) and thats because of the whole stupid NGE debacle.
I agree. Try and sue.
exactly good luck on that lol.
3.4ghz Phenom II X4 965, 8GB PC12800 DDR3 GSKILL, EVGA 560GTX 2GB OC, 640GB HD SATA II, BFG 1000WATT PSU. MSI NF980-G65 TRI-SLI MOBO.
you guys can try rappelz it is a fun game gets kinda boring since they have not put in 2nd jobs yet but they are supposed to add them soon like with in the the next month. i enjoyed it for about 3 months before i got bored. cabal comes out soon f2p 2 moons july 30th. but other than that not a whole lot to choose from that is any good imo
dude i tried rappelz its like low-budget version of Lineage2. so many similarities its scary. and secondly its horridly boring, graphics are well questionable, though has likeness to lineage2. and thirdly i dont like is the market selling crap to even compete. i got fed up by my mid 20's realizing why on earth am i playing this when i can play my Lineage2 account with a lvl 57+ DA with full doom lol.
not to mention the community is a bunch of meatheads. never talk, never group, never helps when u ask a question, very sterile impersonable community.
thirdly the F2p crap i dont believe in it, you end up paying more and get less than if you played a MMO witha flat fee of $15 a month.
3.4ghz Phenom II X4 965, 8GB PC12800 DDR3 GSKILL, EVGA 560GTX 2GB OC, 640GB HD SATA II, BFG 1000WATT PSU. MSI NF980-G65 TRI-SLI MOBO.
If I was in a store and decided to buy a new $50 mixer....should I leave that store, drive home, get on my computer and scower the internet forums looking for any info on that mixer?
No, you would have been wise to type a search on that mixer *before* you went out to buy it. The interweb is full of really useful reviews on just about everything!
People who bought this game obviously have internet connections.. there is no reason, except laziness or an acute case of tunnel vision, that they couldnt be armed with info about what they are buying with very little time invested. Certainly less time then spending the next 3 months whining about 'being cheated' on gaming forums anyhow.
Really guys, there is no excuse for being ignorant about any product on the market these days...
So, yes. The blame is half theirs for releasing crap, and half yours for being too lazy to type in one or two key words and do a little reading.
Personal accountability ftw.
OK, I agree that the burden should be shared by both sides, but the point I was trying to make is.....some people might have come upon this game by just being in-store and picking up the box and thinking it was interesting.
What about the first timers, or parents/ grandparents (maybe), who might have bought it unknowingly for someone....the list is endless.
Sorry, I dont have the time to spend looking on the internet for info for videogames.
Thanks for the information though.....before my kids go to the local convienent store....I'll make sure they google peppermint gum, and make sure the brand has just the right amount of sweetness.
Comments
I am dying to know, and I hope you know I don't mean this in any malicious way, but I want to ask you what is so great about Vanguard? I have seen you talk a great deal about how well you like this game. What sets it apart from WoW or EQII, which, to my mind, have a very similar world. Lore is important to me though, for roleplaying purposes; if you like it for that reason, I would probably love to hear that more than anything.
EDIT:
You are a very creepy person and have just become blocked by me. I worry about people like you who would do violence in retaliation for a poor business choice. I wonder why people hate SOE so much; some people clearly really like them. But I bet your bark is worse than you bite in any case.
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
wait...this is crazy.
SOE saved this game from financial ruin and you're talking about that he "represent customers who allow companies like SOE to keep ripping off the public"
1. First of all, if SOE didnt buy out Vanguard, Vanguard would have a continual growth and existance over a little less than a year before Sigil went bankrupt (because no one else would have bought it. The next biggest MMO company is Blizzard followed by NCSoft. I am sorry..they are not in the business of saving 3rd party MMOs like SOE is).
2. Second of all, by playing Vanguard right now, you are catering to the SOE corporate evilness right now. So, by your own standards you are breaking your own rules
I don't currently play Vanguard, why the assumption?
Vanguard should not have been released unfinished, at least not with a fee until it was ready. If that meant that it would have never been released, then so be it. How is ripping people off of $50 a good thing? There are plenty of MMOGs out there, we don't need to save Vanguard for a possible turnaround which frankly is very much in doubt.
Where is that disclaimer?
I don't currently play Vanguard, why the assumption?
Vanguard should not have been released unfinished, at least not with a fee until it was ready. If that meant that it would have never been released, then so be it. How is ripping people off of $50 a good thing? There are plenty of MMOGs out there, we don't need to save Vanguard for a possible turnaround which frankly is very much in doubt.
Where is that disclaimer?
Samuraisword sounds like you allowed SOE to take you. I, personally, did my research, played the open beta, knew about the bugs and performance issues and as an informed consumer still decided VSoH was worth my 50$ and 15$ a month. Why is that so hard for people to understand? It's a free country, I owe the mmo community nothing. It is not my duty to abstain from a game I like because there are problems with it you can't see past. SOE/Sigil/VSoH did not rip people off. I'll repeat for effect - DID NOT RIP PEOPLE OFF. And here is why....Gamers ALLOWED THEMSELVES to get ripped off. There was more than enough info before release, not only in gaming forums but info released by Sigil that would tell you exactly what features were not in, bad performance, etc. Stop saying the company was at fault for your poor decision in the store to pick up a shiny box of a game you knew nothing about.
You may be right...if every mmo gamer banded together and did a mass boycott of a game because it was released with bugs, the company may well fold....heck, Sigil did fold. But if your 'Coalition of the Duped' succeeds, who will be your leader? Who will get to decide whether a game is buyable or not? Will you be the one to determine the level of acceptable bugs for purchase? What will be the standard? Does the game have to be completely bug free or can it contain some bugs? Who gets to decide if the bug makes the game 'unplayable'. What if I can stand crashing to desktop once a week, but for you that's a game breaker? Will I get to decide if the game is playable or will you get to? Who will become the MMO Czar giving their seal of approval to what comes out of my wallet?
But as to playing one of the of mmo's out there without bugs I say this: could i build my own house in WoW? Can I have a shadowhound mount in EQ2? Can I play a bloodmage in Everquest? The answer is obviously 'no'. There may be plenty of polished mmo's out there, but none of them can do or has plans to do what Vanguard is doing. I'm not going back to the other games simply because they have less bugs. Sorry, but I can see past the bugs and performance and enjoy the features I can only find in Vanguard. You cannot. Isn't freedom wonderful? Aren't you glad we live in a country where I don't tell you how to spend your money and you don't tell me....or wait...you are telling me how to spend my money....lemme rephrase, aren't you glad you live in a free country where you can spout off uninformed directives to other people? I certainly am glad that I am free to laugh at you for trying.
I looked at the whole thing from this perspective.....
If any game I beta tested said this to me, "The game isn't finished, it's a little buggy and there are some performance issues, would you as a beta tester be willing to pay 15 bucks a month while we fix these problems, so that when they are fixed you can keep the uber toon you have been working on rather than wiping the game once it is polished?" My answer would have been 'Yes, no question."
I can't answer that question for you, but I suspect thousands and maybe tens of thousands of people would have jumped at that opportunity. In fact, seems like about 90,000 people did say, 'yes' to Vanguard.
See that's the beauty of a free society. I am free to spend my dollars how I want. I am satisfied with my purchase of VSoH. I believe it was money well spent. You on the other hand are free NOT to spend your money on Vanguard, but In fact, it sounds like you freely bought the game without any research or sense of 'buyer beware' (an old American adage modern consumers seem to be forgetting). You are also free to tell me how to spend my money, but thankfully I am free not to listen to you. Even Vanguard was free to promote its product how it saw fit. There is freedom everywhere. But the idea, that I must lay down my opinion, stop playing a game that I find entertaining just because you felt duped due to your own lack of research before buying Vanguard....that doesn't sound like freedom. Sounds more like people trying to blame others for their own mistakes and need validation by gathering with other people who made the same stupid impulse buy.
What I suggest to you haters is this....don't form a coalition to bring down mmo companies that release unpolished games...instead form a therapy group where you can get together and learn how not to make uninformed purchases in the future. 'Cuz you haters need some help, not a revolution.
Last point:
This upswell of people who have a new cause to bring down mmo's because they don't meet your requirements is truly something one has to take notice of. Just think, if you got this angry about world hunger, tyrannical governments, racism, etc. etc. then perhaps we could see some positive change in the world...but sadly, you guys are focusing on bringing down computer game companies instead; and if in 20 years you can look back and say, 'I made a difference in the world, I convinced people to stop playing Vanguard'. You had a sad life pal.
This ends todays civic lesson. Be responsible with your own freedom, respect the freedom of others.
You could have saved yourself all that writing and speech. I just want my $50 bucks back. Everything you said can continue on and you can have your freedom to choose, but that doesn't prevent or relinquish SOE/Sigil's responsibility to offer refunds since they knew and admitted they released an unfinished product.
Missed a central point:
You don't get your money back, because they knew and admitted they had an unfinished product BEFORE release.
So again, buyer beware.
You can't get your money back if they disclose their products failings prior to your purchase. If you didn't know before your wallet openned that Vanguard was buggy, you weren't paying attention.
It is 100% your fault for buying Vanguard, not anyone elses.
Missed a central point:
You don't get your money back, because they knew and admitted they had an unfinished product BEFORE release.
So again, buyer beware.
You can't get your money back if they disclose their products failings prior to your purchase. If you didn't know before your wallet openned that Vanguard was buggy, you weren't paying attention.
It is 100% your fault for buying Vanguard, not anyone elses.
I don't believe it and never saw it until after the fact when Brad admitted it.
Please provide a link by SOE or Sigil showing a statement was made prior to launch that the game was being released incomplete.
Missed a central point:
You don't get your money back, because they knew and admitted they had an unfinished product BEFORE release.
So again, buyer beware.
You can't get your money back if they disclose their products failings prior to your purchase. If you didn't know before your wallet openned that Vanguard was buggy, you weren't paying attention.
It is 100% your fault for buying Vanguard, not anyone elses.
I don't believe it and never saw it until after the fact when Brad admitted it.
Please provide a link by SOE or Sigil showing a statement was made prior to launch that the game was being released incomplete.
Well, seeing as how the original site and forums no longer exists (since the developing company doesn't exist anymore either) the easy link I was going to give you pointed out for example that the 'inquisitor' class would not be ready for release. I was also going to link to the official 'performance issues' sticky from those forums, but they have been taken down as well. Then there was the post all over gaming forums from Brad McQuaid himself BEFORE release that stated something to the effect of "we ran out of money, we had to release". But those were definately sources straight from the horses mouth. Then I realized......
Why am I doing your research for you? Wasn't this your central problem in the first place, you didn't do your research.
I'm not doing your research for you. You need to do it yourself. It will save you money on your future game purchases. Or instead, you can blindly spend your money, get pissed at the company and then scream in gaming forums the injustices you've endured...
I'll even give you a head start, skip to pre-release posts from this forum. There you will find mountains of information, even some Sigil employee posts that acknowledge the games issues. Seems odd that you are a poster at mmorpg and somehow didn't have a clue that Vanguard had issues before release.
Can anyone else back me up here? Especially from the haters....you need to let this guy know he was living in a cave somewhere to not know Vanguard wasn't ready. I simply don't believe there is any way even if you had done the simplest of research you could have missed that Vanguard wasn't optimized for release.
And since you gave me a project in your last post, I'll give you one...any rebuttal should include a link proving that Sigil did not admit the 'Inquisitor' wasn't ready for release and/or a link showing proof that there wasn't a 'performance issue' forum from the pre-release website.
P.S. Looking back through this post, a whole lot of people have raked you over the coals for that original post, if you still can't see the problem is your own - I'm sorry.
Sorry man couldn't resist after re-reading. You admit that you have been following these forums, and yet still you claim you had no idea about the games issues prior to release.......
So tell me again....are you sure it's the fanbois scrambling for new excuses?
Why are you out 50$? Still 100% your fault.
Sorry man couldn't resist after re-reading. You admit that you have been following these forums, and yet still you claim you had no idea about the games issues prior to release.......
So tell me again....are you sure it's the fanbois scrambling for new excuses?
Why are you out 50$? Still 100% your fault.
ahh... personal accountability!
I like this idea!
Might not sit well with the blame culture of the US tho? It's always someone elses fault right?
Personal accountability is a good thing.
Is SOE/Sigil being responsible for knowingly releasing an unfinished product or do they blame the customer for not researching some forum archives to hear about it from non employees?
Both.
If either party had fulfilled their part then we wouldnt be having this conversation
So any consumer who buys a product that was fraudulently advertised by the manufacturer, yet denounced by a few "in the know" whistleblowers, is partially responsible for not digging for the facts ahead of time? I don't think so.
There are clear consumer fraud laws and false advertising is at the top of the list. Logic dictates if you sell a product, then it's expected to be complete and fully functional.
Since SOE/Sigil are the ones profiting from the relationship, the impetus is on them to be forthright.
Hmm.....this seems to be an ongoing arguement.
If I was in a store and decided to buy a new $50 mixer....should I leave that store, drive home, get on my computer and scower the internet forums looking for any info on that mixer?
No, you would have been wise to type a search on that mixer *before* you went out to buy it. The interweb is full of really useful reviews on just about everything!
People who bought this game obviously have internet connections.. there is no reason, except laziness or an acute case of tunnel vision, that they couldnt be armed with info about what they are buying with very little time invested. Certainly less time then spending the next 3 months whining about 'being cheated' on gaming forums anyhow.
Really guys, there is no excuse for being ignorant about any product on the market these days...
So, yes. The blame is half theirs for releasing crap, and half yours for being too lazy to type in one or two key words and do a little reading.
Personal accountability ftw.
I would try to sue Sigil for my money back I was you.
Im sure SOE signed away any clauses that makes them not responsible for any ills Sigil has committed. But then again, good luck suing for your money back. The only successful refund I have ever seen was the Trials (3rd expansion for SWG) and thats because of the whole stupid NGE debacle.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
i dont get why ppl hate soe so bad eq1 great game eq2 was soso. i dont like star wars so that was a no brainer for me. i guess cause they make games where you keep having to spend money on but isn't that true with all games?
welcome to the club dude lmao!! u and just about everyone on this forum probably has and does feel that way. hell i know i do, so yeah i can definitely feel ya pain.
im in the ripe old age in my veteranacy with MMO's where frankly there isnt any MMO's that keeps my attention for long. i also tried almost everyt MMO you listed as well. WOW, eve and Eq2 are the only ones that ill admit kept me focused near the end.
Lineage 2 i even got far in until i got fed up with haveing to spend a fortune that equates to the GNP of a small european country lol.
SWG is the only one I stayed off and on for 3+ years (though i handed in the towel around NGE though i came back here and there so i didnt feel i was being biased) its tragic, cause frankly SWG unlike most had a true sandbox feeling to it. EVE is also very sandbox but can be deathly boring not to mention you have to watch ya back 24/7 for gate campers in 0.0 space. but otherwise awesome PVP, and ratting and easily the most non-linear open experience if you dont jump out the window from sheer boredom that blows over you from time to time.
Im holding out for the next set to come out, AOC, Taba ralusa, and Warhammer Online. but those are a bit of a ways off.
3.4ghz Phenom II X4 965, 8GB PC12800 DDR3 GSKILL, EVGA 560GTX 2GB OC, 640GB HD SATA II, BFG 1000WATT PSU. MSI NF980-G65 TRI-SLI MOBO.
I would try to sue Sigil for my money back I was you.
Im sure SOE signed away any clauses that makes them not responsible for any ills Sigil has committed. But then again, good luck suing for your money back. The only successful refund I have ever seen was the Trials (3rd expansion for SWG) and thats because of the whole stupid NGE debacle.
I agree. Try and sue.Wish Darkfall would release.
I would try to sue Sigil for my money back I was you.
Im sure SOE signed away any clauses that makes them not responsible for any ills Sigil has committed. But then again, good luck suing for your money back. The only successful refund I have ever seen was the Trials (3rd expansion for SWG) and thats because of the whole stupid NGE debacle.
I agree. Try and sue.exactly good luck on that lol.
3.4ghz Phenom II X4 965, 8GB PC12800 DDR3 GSKILL, EVGA 560GTX 2GB OC, 640GB HD SATA II, BFG 1000WATT PSU. MSI NF980-G65 TRI-SLI MOBO.
dude i tried rappelz its like low-budget version of Lineage2. so many similarities its scary. and secondly its horridly boring, graphics are well questionable, though has likeness to lineage2. and thirdly i dont like is the market selling crap to even compete. i got fed up by my mid 20's realizing why on earth am i playing this when i can play my Lineage2 account with a lvl 57+ DA with full doom lol.
not to mention the community is a bunch of meatheads. never talk, never group, never helps when u ask a question, very sterile impersonable community.
thirdly the F2p crap i dont believe in it, you end up paying more and get less than if you played a MMO witha flat fee of $15 a month.
3.4ghz Phenom II X4 965, 8GB PC12800 DDR3 GSKILL, EVGA 560GTX 2GB OC, 640GB HD SATA II, BFG 1000WATT PSU. MSI NF980-G65 TRI-SLI MOBO.
No, you would have been wise to type a search on that mixer *before* you went out to buy it. The interweb is full of really useful reviews on just about everything!
People who bought this game obviously have internet connections.. there is no reason, except laziness or an acute case of tunnel vision, that they couldnt be armed with info about what they are buying with very little time invested. Certainly less time then spending the next 3 months whining about 'being cheated' on gaming forums anyhow.
Really guys, there is no excuse for being ignorant about any product on the market these days...
So, yes. The blame is half theirs for releasing crap, and half yours for being too lazy to type in one or two key words and do a little reading.
Personal accountability ftw.
OK, I agree that the burden should be shared by both sides, but the point I was trying to make is.....some people might have come upon this game by just being in-store and picking up the box and thinking it was interesting.
What about the first timers, or parents/ grandparents (maybe), who might have bought it unknowingly for someone....the list is endless.
Sorry, I dont have the time to spend looking on the internet for info for videogames.
Thanks for the information though.....before my kids go to the local convienent store....I'll make sure they google peppermint gum, and make sure the brand has just the right amount of sweetness.