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Hardcore open pvp dead?
Classicstar
Member UncommonPosts: 2,697
I think if DFO(darkfall) will not be released, then hardcore open is dead?.
Almost all mmorpgs are more and more casual and save to play no danger in pvp.
Instance, savezones, very controlled and organise areas with no loss of xp items when you die, you already know upfront whats going to happen when battle begins:(.
If this is the future?
Im affraid im not playing any mmo anymore:(
I know majority mmo community love it play save no risk games and hate open pvp, they think only stupid gankers in games like that(not true offcorse), still have my hopes DFO (darkfall) that it ever will be released, its my only hope.
I have nothing agains other mmo,s its just not my cup of tea thats all.
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although in the latest dev journal, they said they were aiming for a summer beta release.
It's the gank issue you mentioned that keeps most players away, particularly when the focus of a game encourages people to PVE instead of PVP. (I'm hoping DF doesn't follow this old model).
In some ways....its the players who prey on lower level folks or those totally engaged in a PVE fight so that their victim has no chance to fight back that discourages many folks from playing FFA PVP games....
But let's hope DF is released in the next year or so... I know the open PVP crowd really needs a game they can call home....
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But isnt there a few other open PvP MMO in development exept DF?
Infinity is a open PvP space skillbased MMO (yay).
But i agree, If DF is not released......good MMO to play in the future is gone
Only thing in that game that requires time is building towns by the looks of it. Thats one of the things thats good about the game, you can spend as much or as little time as you want playing by the looks of it, and still able to participate in all the activities and get equally rewarded for it, sure you won't be able to own your own town, but theres nothing stopping you from joining a clan that does.
Personally i think darkfall will release with all features etc, its just hard to believe they are gonna get this to run on a server with 10k players in a seamless world and twitch based combat lol
As for instances, theres nothing wrong with them, when used correctly they are very good, like in lord of the rings, where it advances the storyline, you can also have instances that raise the difficulty, change the dungeon, bg w/e, how is any of that carebear? because you can't attack the other group?
Is a casual friendly mmo the future, well duh of course it is, do you honestly think people will make games for those that spend all day playing games, you wouldn't even fill up one server. Casual players are the majority of people who play games, games that are casual friendly do not auto-matically mean easy, and games that take ages to level, are full of grind, are not hard, just boring and unsuccessful.
A game that is hard, because its ai is good, and levels are well designed, takes long to do because it is hard, not a grindfest, and they are very casual friendly as you can go at it at your own pace.
Loss of experience and items does not work in alot of games, it will work in darkfall because it is being designed to be like that. If you made me lose my items in wow i wouldn't play it, the game is not designed for you to lose gear, if someone spends months raiding then suddenly losses all their gear, they won't go oh well they will quit the game.
As for losing experience that is for mmos of the past and mmos that haven't got any decent content so they slow you down by having un-imaginitive death penalties, losing experience wouldn't make you want to keep playing its more than likely going to make you do the opposite.
Safezones are needed in games that have levels, if you removed the ability to not be attacked in wows starter zones you would quit the game in an instant, theres no way you will stand a chance against a high level, you would die as soon as you created a character, in darkfall theres no safe zones because its skill based, you can't out level your opponent, therefore if you get ganked its because you are a worse player than the guy who killed you not because the guy who killed you had 10x your stats and a billion more health.
As for the last bit those people are idiots, comparing games that use everquests formula, aka wow, to a game that has completly different rules ala darkfall, is stupid, as i mentioned above you cant get ganked, you mearly get killed, ganking/griefing is when someone kills you and you don't have any chance of winning no matter how good you are.
Noone complains about being ganked in a fps, its the same as a mmo game with skill based combat, if you allow yourself to be killed its your own fault not the games.
Even in a blue server combat was so much more less restricted than in WOW.
So no "everquest formula, aka wow".
Great post Scriar.
If Darkfall is ever released, we will have a rich MMO with good PvP. I think that games like WoW have made people new to MMOs think that PvP is all about ganking lowbies and out gearing people. PvP should be about people that can play their character better killing people that aren't as good. PvP should be exciting and risky. You should win a fight because you know a better series of moves or how to position your character better than the next person.
Even in a blue server combat was so much more less restricted than in WOW.
So no "everquest formula, aka wow".
When i say everquests formula all i mean is level. gear based, carrot on a stick etc i should of gone with the traditional rpg game based on pnp games, but everquest formula is quicker to type
All you DFO fanatics can hold your breath till DFO hits Beta. It could be any day now, or 2002, whichever comes last. Then we can be free of you guys for awhile... or you can go play Shadowbane, I hear it's free now.
Obviously something is wrong over at Adventurine (or whatever company is running that shell now). I commend them for not releasing a buggy piece of crap, but I can't help but have no remorse for the fact they cannot be trusted with release dates in the least after there are people who have waited 5 years. Just hold your breath a little longer... really, release is summer (year pending).
And to the guy who boasted Thrones of Chaos... he should know they renamed it AGAIN. There's some huge long thread about that game someplace around here.
Here's a good question:
Why do all "hardcore PvP" games get delayed as such? Or end up being buggy beyond comprehension? Is there something about that particular style of play, or is it something else? Is "hardcore PvP" programming more difficult (read: it's not)? Or are the crews who take on the project slightly dilusional, hoping to sell the game on the term alone.
Perhaps those days are truely over, and you gentleman can return to screaming about "Pre-Tremmal" and "Pre-CU/NGE", while I laugh and enjoy the offerings available to me now.
Life is good for me, cause I like PvE.
- CaesarsGhost
Lead Gameplay and Gameworld Designer for a yet unnamed MMO Title.
"When people tell me designing a game is easy, I try to get them to design a board game. Most people don't last 5 minutes, the rest rarely last more then a day. The final few realize it's neither fun nor easy."
-----------------------------
SWG - PrePub9 Jedi mastered all professions - June 26th 2003 > Nov 15th 2005
EVE Online - 24 million SP - May 6th 2003 > Early 2005
PlanetSide - BR20 CR5 - May 23rd 2003 > Sept 2003
UO Siege Perilous still alive and kicking. Funny how people continue to forget about that.
That's a good point, however..........the SP shard is supported within the frame work of a larger game. So it's comparing apples to oranges.
I'll believe that a Hardcore open PVP game can survive when they finally make one and it does well in the dollars dept. What many of you describe ( no death penalty, etc. ) make your description a FPS, not a MMO.
DF seems closer to vaporware than a game that will ever be released ( sorry, when dev's are making the amount of excuses that the DF team makes, everybody but a hopelessly naive fan will think that. Hope is good and all, but blind faith with nothing but excuses is not....)
It's an entirely apt comparison. The Siege Perilous ruleset is completely open PVP. There is no Trammel rulset on Siege Perilous and thus it's 100% open PVP.
Diablo's Hardcore mode is similarly a subset of rules within a larger context. Yet it's still used as a constant model of what hardcore PVP is all about.
~Greatness~
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Here's the thing, if you do a poll on the internet, you will find gamers clamoring for more PVP. But when you put PVP into games, especially unbridled PVP, you see the servers empty out pretty fast.
The reason? Some few folks get really good at PVP and occupy their time smashing the noobs until the noobs quit the game.
MMORPG.COM has worst forum editor ever exists
Its not dead.
Its just its not in MMORPGs.
I installed my Wolfe ET and pwning nubs once again. After debating for months (if not years) with fellow MMORPGers that open pvp is the way to go, I realized that too many of the genre fans prefer duel type PvP. Ganking is such a big issue for may MMORPGers that they will avoid all open PvP. I do not want to call MMORPGers carebear players but that is more true to the definition than anything I can think off. Although I've come to realize that playing that way can be more fun than trying to play Open PvP in a game where open PvP is very limited (WoW). So is hardcore pvp dead in general?
No.
Is hardcore pvp dead in MMORPGs?
IMO yes, until I see some new games following in the footsteps of Shadowbane comming out.
Hardcore open pvp (and "regular" open pvp) have to encourage any player (ganker, farmer, winner and loser) to continue playing the game AND continue to PvP. Thats why Shadowbane was so good for me because it did not allow your one defeat to ruin the gameplay for you all the while giving you that "haha pwnd" feeling you get from FPSs when you win. For hardcore open pvp to work, besides the obvious features it must include the following, imo:
1. items are damaged when you get killed by another player
2. low repair costs
3. no factions, you can attack ANY player no matter if they are in the same guild party with you ... FriendlyFire = more realistic
4. being able to loot anything the person was carrying in his INVENTORY, but allowing the player to keep his equiped items which get damaged when he/she dies
5. lots of character templates, sort of a kills b, b kills c, c kills a, etc ... sort of rock paper scissors but with AT LEAST 20 different character classes..... no stupid 9 or 7 classes ( yes, I am looking at you WoW and LOTRO).
So thats it. Pretty much my beef with today's hardcore open pvp/"regular" open pvp.
WTB Shadowbane 2
Darkfall has no levels. It's 100% skill-based.
I think the fact that Darkfall will have manually-aimed combat,no stupid level/gear advantages will help to break the 'ganking' mentality of scared PvE players wishing to PvP. If they want to run away from a group of suspicious people,they will be able to without fear of 10k auto-target Pyroblasts killing them in 1 hit from some epic-geared mage. They'll need to be a little more smart while in the open,but I'd like to think they could adapt easily in Darkfall's open CONTROL and FREE environment.
Here's hoping Darkfall will beta this summer,or soon enough; I'm tired of generic grindfest MMORPG's with little purpose to their PvP and indeed,PvE.
Even if the Grand Prince of Vaporware, Darkfall, is released...and that's a huge if...it will never live up to the massive expectations that are built up for it.
Darkfall has no levels. It's 100% skill-based.
I think the fact that Darkfall will have manually-aimed combat,no stupid level/gear advantages will help to break the 'ganking' mentality of scared PvE players wishing to PvP. If they want to run away from a group of suspicious people,they will be able to without fear of 10k auto-target Pyroblasts killing them in 1 hit from some epic-geared mage. They'll need to be a little more smart while in the open,but I'd like to think they could adapt easily in Darkfall's open CONTROL and FREE environment.
Here's hoping Darkfall will beta this summer,or soon enough; I'm tired of generic grindfest MMORPG's with little purpose to their PvP and indeed,PvE.
If these developers can make their promises come true (hmm... about a 1% or even less chance in the MMO industry...) or atleast majority, then I will play. But I just hope it does not go down the drains like some of its predecessors...
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Eve and starport are pretty hardcore. whats more hardcore then losing your ship then possibly losing all your skills too (Eve)?
in starport you can die permenantly and cant come back for the entire round (2-3 weeks). plus you can lost everything in that game too
but yeah this type of stuff isnt really mainstream sadly. I hope someone takes Darkfall online ideas and implement them or DFO becomes reality one day
not sure bout some of your points i think you misunderstand the original post. but yeah instances really do ruin immersion plus thats not really an MMO. An instance separates a group of players from the world. it also allows developers to split off pvp combat into small groups, like 40 vs 40. Instances removes control from the players and makes the game feel like a shooter or Guild Wars.
Instances main reason for instance is to make it so raid bosses only belong to a specific group thuis way you dont have to camp them. thus they're not really needed in an Open PvP Game