Census shows that people prefer consensual PvP instead of hardcore open get-ganked-at-anytime style of PvP. If you check out WoW it clearly shows that PvE-oriented players massively outnumbered PvP-oriented players. Now I say 'oriented' that's because most players partake in a little bit of everything, for example I myself am inclined more to PvE but sometimes I feel like doing PvP when the mood strikes it (I do both). That is why consensual pvp is more popular compared to hardcore open pvp and of course developers must cater to the majority in order for their game to be successful.
Open PvP isnt dead, it may be a niche market but that is the problem. Big game companies are more concerned about making the money and appealing the the greater care bear crowd than actually making a killer game for a certain group. Have faith my ganking friends that Drakfall comes and delivers up from easy-carebear-hell.
If you have invested millions of dollars on someone else's project I think you'd be concerned about your investments too and making back those investments as soon as possible will be your priority target. Let's not blame everything on those "greedy money grubbing" game developers. It's been shown that majority of players only wants consensual pvp. As for using words like "carebears" it only shows an attitude that oozes with elitism and you wonder why people don't want to play against people with elitist attitude.
If you have invested millions of dollars on someone else's project I think you'd be concerned about your investments too and making back those investments as soon as possible will be your priority target. Let's not blame everything on those "greedy money grubbing" game developers. It's been shown that majority of players only wants consensual pvp. As for using words like "carebears" it only shows an attitude that oozes with elitism and you wonder why people don't want to play against people with elitist attitude.
Lets hope that OpenPvP is dead. Then we can stop talking about it.
- CaesarsGhost
Lead Gameplay and Gameworld Designer for a yet unnamed MMO Title. "When people tell me designing a game is easy, I try to get them to design a board game. Most people don't last 5 minutes, the rest rarely last more then a day. The final few realize it's neither fun nor easy."
Originally posted by liddokun If you have invested millions of dollars on someone else's project I think you'd be concerned about your investments too and making back those investments as soon as possible will be your priority target. Let's not blame everything on those "greedy money grubbing" game developers. It's been shown that majority of players only wants consensual pvp. As for using words like "carebears" it only shows an attitude that oozes with elitism and you wonder why people don't want to play against people with elitist attitude.
<Mod edit>. However i dont have some sort of elitist complex were i get my jollys off beating on non PvPers. Competition is the heart of PvP and since this is a thread on hardcore PvP im going to throw the term left and right when describing players who cry and flame when they get killed.
As for the investment of millions of dollars, if the game kicks ass it shouldn't be a problem. If it is a sub par mix of many genres that lacks decent pvp because it has to be "consensual" then the PvP market is disappointed. If anything it is not the players that are killing the Genre it is those "money grubbing" game developers who would rather stick to the tried and tested 6 month pve fix, because it is a bigger market. However i dont think the longevity of a game is based around the PvE aspect since eventually you will have all the PvE has to offer. It is the struggle and conflict of the PvP. It is why people still play Daoc and older games that have a good PvP system. And not some endless grind for gear and a half ass attempt at implementing some sort of PvP to try and pull some extra monthly subscriptions.
Sure there is a majority, i just state that maybe a game company could focus on the aspect of PvP and have Pve as supplementary, And i happen to like the thrill of having the possibility that maybe i will get ganked and loose all my stuff, but hey its a game, thats what makes it challenging, i have to keep on edge, i have to be skilled.Not a rez at a graveyard and re-equip my uber gear and be back fighting in 20 seconds. Maybe i live in some idealistic world oozing elitism, but Darkfall will come and save us all
No matter how kick ass a game is, if nobody wants to play it then it won't survive or rather if your game does not correspond to what the mainstream audience wants then you will always be relegated to the niche market. Let's say you were in the investor's shoe you would certainly want your game that you invested big money into give back good returns. The general consensus of the market right now is that most players prefer PvE and consensual PvP. But sure, there are some upcoming games that are PvP-centric such as Fury but that doesn't mean you can go around ganking people. As much as you want, purely open pvp games aren't currently in the market trend. And yes, as a service subscription based industry the MMOgaming industry is for all intent and purposes meant for making money.
I dont think they really ever will be the trend, but it is good to see some developers making hardcore PvP games. Or at least PvP as a big focus in the game such as War and Aoc, except there isnt really a risk in the PvP, but hey can't get what you want all the time right?
Why are most NA/Euro players scared of Open PvP? is it really that big of a deal?
The fact that someone doesn't like a particular game style doesn't mean that they're "scared" of it. It's pretty telling that the hardcore crowd so often resorts to bullying responses in discussions about game styles; full-loot PVP is not about PVP combat, but in being able to bully people with the threat of taking all their character's stuff.
Do most NA/Euro players enjoy being carebears who want everything handed to them on a silver platter?
It's amusing to me that the hardcore crowd whines that people don't join their game to be easy targets, but also accuses other people of wanting things handed to them on a silver platter. It's almost as funny as the fact that the 'hardcore' crowd claim to be PVPers, but want a combat system that requires people to put in more time PVEing for gear than actually engaging in PVP fights (like EVE); real PVPers would rather the game be about PVP combat than about PVE grinding to replace losses.
We aren't talking about WoW PvP where you poke each other once or twice and then have a cup of tea, we're talking about hardcore open PvP.
When we ask people to join our games, or try them out, we don't want them for easy targets but rather as a challenge. If you try and get that sort of challenge in WoW you'll be disappointed when the other person doesn't fight to his or her full potential because they know they wont lose anything if they can't win the fight. This also works both ways, when someone bigger and better comes along and kills us, then takes our gear, it gives us a reason to get that gear back.
- Do not hate it, but instead embrace the diversity.
The problem with open pvp games, no one likes risk so most of the fights end up being one sided. Eventually the majority of the playerbase gets tired of the gankers and quits. I have seen it happen time and time again. Killing needs to have consequences, I have yet to see a workable model that involves such.
Until someone comes up with a decent model for consequences, these games will be abject failures. Just reading their site, it is pretty obvious the Darkfall people have no clue when it comes to this.
By the way, Eve has open pvp with risk. Many of you neglect to mention that it is doing quite well. It is not the perfect game, but better than anything out there right now.
Originally posted by GrimReapez We aren't talking about WoW PvP where you poke each other once or twice and then have a cup of tea, we're talking about hardcore open PvP.
Yes, I'm aware that you're talking about gank-and-loot PVP.
When we ask people to join our games, or try them out, we don't want them for easy targets but rather as a challenge.
I might believe that if you could provide an example of a game with a ruleset along those lines that involved mostly people engaging in challenging fights. In actual gank-and-loot PVP games, though, you see ambushes (zone camps, gate camps, etc.), you see people set up for PVP jumping people involved in PVE pursuits, you see big gangs of people jumping smaller groups, you see people with high-level gear jumping on people in noob gear. And you virtually never see people willing to engage in a fight on equal terms.
But the fact is, the 'hardcore' PVP crowd attempts to get people who are not good at PVP and who don't like PVP fights to play their games, and berate them - as an example, the person you quoted me quoting. The most common complaint about UO is that Trammel ruined the game - but all Trammel did was give people who weren't interested in PVP a place to go to avoid it. Were 'hardcore' PVPers really seeking challenging opponents, they'd sing the praises of Trammel in UO since it removed most of the non-challenging guys that would be a waste of time.
The gank-and-loot ruleset punishes players for engaging in competetive fights and rewards them for beating up the weaker kids for their lunch money, if you're really so into challenge why do you want a ruleset that discourages people from seeking challenging fights?
Originally posted by Pantastic Originally posted by GrimReapez We aren't talking about WoW PvP where you poke each other once or twice and then have a cup of tea, we're talking about hardcore open PvP.Yes, I'm aware that you're talking about gank-and-loot PVP.When we ask people to join our games, or try them out, we don't want them for easy targets but rather as a challenge.
I might believe that if you could provide an example of a game with a ruleset along those lines that involved mostly people engaging in challenging fights. In actual gank-and-loot PVP games, though, you see ambushes (zone camps, gate camps, etc.), you see people set up for PVP jumping people involved in PVE pursuits, you see big gangs of people jumping smaller groups, you see people with high-level gear jumping on people in noob gear. And you virtually never see people willing to engage in a fight on equal terms.
But the fact is, the 'hardcore' PVP crowd attempts to get people who are not good at PVP and who don't like PVP fights to play their games, and berate them - as an example, the person you quoted me quoting. The most common complaint about UO is that Trammel ruined the game - but all Trammel did was give people who weren't interested in PVP a place to go to avoid it. Were 'hardcore' PVPers really seeking challenging opponents, they'd sing the praises of Trammel in UO since it removed most of the non-challenging guys that would be a waste of time.
The gank-and-loot ruleset punishes players for engaging in competetive fights and rewards them for beating up the weaker kids for their lunch money, if you're really so into challenge why do you want a ruleset that discourages people from seeking challenging fights?
I could not possibly quote this for more truth if I tried.
I always love when some "hardcore" pvp type starts blithering about how they want more people to try their game, then, the instance some poor soul logs in for the first time, he is gang raped, and mocked before he can even finish loading in to the world. Oddly enough, they usually log right back out, never to return.
Every other animal in the wild has learned the simple lesson: Do not eat your own young. "Hardcore" pvpers, sadly, can't seem to grasp that simple little concept.
Does anyone get the impression from reading these "hardcore" Pvpers post that they are borderline psychotic? I think they are very unbalenced. Perhaps game makers should make them a game so they will just gank people in game and not go looking for real life PvP.
I could not possibly quote this for more truth if I tried. I always love when some "hardcore" pvp type starts blithering about how they want more people to try their game, then, the instance some poor soul logs in for the first time, he is gang raped, and mocked before he can even finish loading in to the world. Oddly enough, they usually log right back out, never to return. Every other animal in the wild has learned the simple lesson: Do not eat your own young. "Hardcore" pvpers, sadly, can't seem to grasp that simple little concept.
why is people dont whine like this in FPS games? thats why i just play those I like playing games with fellow warriors they dont whine on voice chat about being spawn camped. they call in friends and we support each other. I know if i got camped in MMOs id call in my guild and hell that was the sweest, funniest thing ever
so sad, so people just dont like a challenge. they want easy mode. beat down some gimp, retarded mob AI then brag to their fellow guildies in their raid how much skill it took thekm to beatdown that retarded mob AI 1000000 other pve'ers beatdown
Originally posted by GrimReapez If they log out then they aren't hardcore enough, they can gtfo and play PvE.
And you exemplify "Hardcore"? You're killing weaker players in a video game. It's not as if you're calling Chuck Liddell your prison bitch to his face here, hoss.
Originally posted by vajuras Originally posted by Coldmeat
I could not possibly quote this for more truth if I tried. I always love when some "hardcore" pvp type starts blithering about how they want more people to try their game, then, the instance some poor soul logs in for the first time, he is gang raped, and mocked before he can even finish loading in to the world. Oddly enough, they usually log right back out, never to return. Every other animal in the wild has learned the simple lesson: Do not eat your own young. "Hardcore" pvpers, sadly, can't seem to grasp that simple little concept.
why is people dont whine like this in FPS games? thats why i just play those I like playing games with fellow warriors they dont whine on voice chat about being spawn camped. they call in friends and we support each other. I know if i got camped in MMOs id call in my guild and hell that was the sweest, funniest thing ever so sad, so people just dont like a challenge. they want easy mode. beat down some gimp, retarded mob AI then brag to their fellow guildies in their raid how much skill it took thekm to beatdown that retarded mob AI 1000000 other pve'ers beatdown
You sure do think you know a lot about my personal playstyle, son. Do I know you, or some shit?
The gank-and-loot ruleset punishes players for engaging in competetive fights and rewards them for beating up the weaker kids for their lunch money, if you're really so into challenge why do you want a ruleset that discourages people from seeking challenging fights?
It's not about that. think about it- how does loot distribution work right now in current MMOs? fill us in. This is what happens- in WoW, for example, you grind and you grind and you grind for epic lootz. Why?
Its' because the Developers have full control over loot distribution. They generate the loot and they make u farm your butt off for that loot. Everquest 1 taught the industry how to reign in full control over the universe and make it static. easy money for Devs. anything that gives you full control over player progression is so easy for Devs to imagine. its just like a single player game which is a well established model to follow.
But what if I could just take what I want? And all gear was 100% player made? Now players have full control of loot distribution
Now you have pirate, police, and all kinds of professions that give the game more meaning. Now there are no farmers. Why? Cause we can klil'em and loot'em. too risky for farmers to make money and if they stay they will have to group to protect their assets and they actually help the game cause now the players have a lot to gain by robbing the farmers.
Imagine this- you have a bank in your city and some players comes in and robs it. Now u can place a bounty on him. And what if you catch the theif? You can yet money back plus you loot that theif for the tools,etc he used to rob you. He cant just walk into yer bank but naked and rob it. it will cost him money for failing.
Now we have a new profession for thieves, cops, etc. possibilities are endless and seriously mind blowing.
What if he escapes? Well hire a bounty hunter! Now thats another career already!
And why would you grind knowing all loot is disposable? you wont. you play for fun- not grind. sure, you might still push to have a ton of money and get the best stuff. but you will plan it out and use your head. you just wont put on your best gear and walk into a dangerous area alone lol. the truly skilled will put on that best gear and walk out and pwn. The noobs will lose it fast.
Also, you get rewarded for pvp! ding! now pvp has a point. Now we can off someone and we get to split the spoils. We get rewarded for taking down a harder prey with much better loot assuming they had the nutz to wear some real cool stuff.
now players have full control of the server and they dictate their own rules which is risky to developers. And me killing my enemy will set them back. perhaps make them unable to attempt another attack on my guild owned terriority / bank / property. Now, we have -real- warfare. Players will strategize to reduce their risk.
right now why should I play an MMO to PvP? I have no reason. I'm not subbing to anything. About to give EvE and Starport a try soon that's it. because I can get the same experience all other MMOs offer in Battlefield 2142 and that game at least allows me to unlock my main class easily and all gear
you had some good points felt that question was a valid one that barred an anwser. Maybe you havve a different stake on this
And not all hardcore pvpers are animals. most ppl will just simply run by each other. There can be system in place to discourage ganking non-violent players. I dunno, hardcore pvpers dont want restrictions. we do want competition and we want victims if we cant find competition. See this is the thing even Blkizzard discovered. What happened to world pvp in WoW when they introduced Battlegrounds? The pvpers left open pvp and went into the instances. Why? Do pvpers like repetitive gameplay? No! Cause we got the Best rewards from the competition! It is a self governing system. Do you think a robber will rob an old lady knowing good and well shes mostly likely broke? Hell no its not worth the trouble. PvPErs simply need to pointed into a high risk situation to get the ultimate rewards. Then you'll see less rampant, pointless ganking. A lot less. Just look at WoW- many pvpers say open pvp is dead. not all- but many. I know I did
but the essence of it is risk vs reward. just like RL, if I attempt to do something high risk, should be a high reward. its a system controlled by players.
Developers wont do it simply cause they make more money by making players grind. That's it. It's less risk and its easy and its -static-. They have full control over loot distribution. problem is we have seen a severe rise in botters and farmers cause player pop cant do anything about annoying players. we lack control over the worlds we populate.
The key here though is no one really likes being ganked while engaged in a mob. thats only time I dont like open pvp sometimes. But what if I didnt have to farm? What if in this hardcore game I do what I want for -fun-. This is the risk- developers that make MMOs have these budgets but small time frames normally. Publishers want a sure thing. they want to follow an established model and work with an established market. Static, PvE MMOs are a sure thing. of course gamers will get smart in a coupla years and realize its all a sick grindfest.
thus u have the hardcore pvper. they are an anomaly. too the rest of the world they are griefers and gankers. but in reality this is about player run content vs static. Everyone wants dynamic content but until control is handed over to players we will be stuck with static world and "end game".
WAR is at least taking some calculated risks. unfoirtunately they still have full control in the end. I do hope for something truly innovative but sad reality it will take a small budget title to really establish the market most likely. After that, perhaps we'll see something truly cutting edge come down from a mainstream publisher
personally i have no big problem with plaeyrs having their safezones. but the truth of it is if u let 'questers' solo/group in safe zones then u open the door to farmers. plus, now players are getting stuff the easy way. so then a pve'er can walk into a pvp area and pwn all the hardcore guys! Why? Causde the carebear has the best lootz!!! Thus there can be no instances or safe zones to earn best gear
instead, we need a 100% hardcore pvp game. let carebears get their own server. but u cvant have both in the same game. maybe its okay to let them travel through dangerous terriroty to get someplace safe and they can quest there. and thats a strong maybe. but there has to be risk involved and mobs cant respawn in this safezone. thus they force to leave. at best let them choose their spawnpoint. Honestly, this type of game works flawlessly only if we approach it like the PvE based games. We cater to PvP fully. Thus there can be no safe zones. We cannot let a carebear/farmer upset the balance. because surely, a carebear is a farmer. sure, they might not be breaking any laws, etc but they will safely get all their stuff the easy, predictable way if allowed. And we cant cater to this mindset. They must except risks and this will in turn give our pirates something to hang around for. And the loot must be something worthwhile to risk the pirates and their must be loss and the crafter/quester/farmer must have some special ability pirates dont have to risk this (like hard to earn specialized talents perhaps and we only allow one craft type of skill)
it takes a lot of good, solid game design. and it will be hard. there is no established model to follow yet. it will taker a really good designer to develop this and u will have to risk the 'uber guild' problem whereas one huge grioup ruins the game. hopefully players will spread out. permadeath is one way but too hardcore for most lol. the 'uber guild' is the biggest problem.
I do think Faction vs Faction + hardcore looting helps alleviate the problems with FFA pvp. that way its more casual and u dont need an uber guild to do pvp. I think a Faction vs Faction PvP with looting can work better for casual gamers. you have a 'guild' you are apart of. and allow ganking of ppl in your own faction with heavy penalties or just disallow it. it would be much better if you could encourage players to form 'Factions' and then let players affilate with that somehow. Artificial factions just dont have meaning to those that dont roleplay. Guilds are just a bit too hardcore to most casuals is my take on this. Getting newbies up to speed and giving them a fighting chance is what this type of game needs to focus on. Dont just let the noobs go off alone into the wilderness and get smoked. honeslty, the best games usualyl dont have any sort of tutorials per se they teach as players go along or its self-intuitive. yes i am suggesting some minor hand holding here for the carebear (not trying to offend anyone im not referring to ppl posting here) to get up to speed and give them challenges to go harvest some materials in a dangerous area
sorry for the book! I will save this post off somewhere on my site i guess
If they log out then they aren't hardcore enough, they can gtfo and play PvE.
And you exemplify "Hardcore"? You're killing weaker players in a video game. It's not as if you're calling Chuck Liddell your prison bitch to his face here, hoss.
That's one of the things you need to overcome when playing in a hardcore server, you need to be able to somehow run away and level up, then come back at higher level and kill whoever slaughters you at low level
- Do not hate it, but instead embrace the diversity.
this is the "wool" MMO devs pull over players and its amazing so many fall for this:
It's much easier to design a static MMO (no player looting, level based, classes) and no worries about players ruining your server. Why? Cause they cant do anything to change it and they have -zero- control over loot distribution. They cant even gank a farmer thats harming the economy
unfortunately they are now all plagued by a bad problem- farmers / botters. They auto lvl toons for people and drive up economy to insane, unfeasible prices. and people can pay for it because they get the money mailed to them by a farmer. so its farmer->farmer transactions. not always- but its common just look at all the farmer ads u see even on this site.
Farmers is a risk they accept because they generally dont run ppl off your server wholesale. know anyone that left WoW over farmers? I dont. maybe there are some but thats the extreme minority. perhaps they recognized that stuff on auction house had bloated prices and concluded they couldnt get uber loot ever so quit. which goes back to my reply above- players not having control over anything.
plus you can guarantee your publisher you can maintain customers for 4-5 months with some fancy charts and the established time honored tradition known as classes / levels. they go hand and hand in MMOs becauser they are a form of control. They restrict players options to gain skills thus they must reroll to experiment. Levels guarantee a steady income for months. and once the players exhaust your content well hell lets release an expansion and expand the level cap or sneak in higher levels through more uber loot. It will happen most surely- because even some of your most hardcore questers will get bored
This is all about control- looting players sooooooo much control into the hands of the players. Its a self governing system. Ever see .hack anime? "The World" is a player run MMO in that anime. And see- they have thieves, and player run guards that actually protect the questers. its a player run system and look at how much drama it provides for a simple anime! Check it out you see tons of careers- player created.
The more control you give players the more dynamic the world is. but- its a world Developers dont directly control which is simply too much risk to them.
Can you blame them? What do you do with your money? If you have a 401k or play stock market what do you do? Do you lump all your income into high risk stocks or play it safe to make sure you get a return? you strategize and try to get the inside scoop, you buy low and sell high. you eliminate your risk for max gain. This is how game publishers think. They want safe investmests for their money
We dont see player run worlds not because its a failure. Ultima online had over 200k subs thats a smashing success developed by a game developer based in little old Austin ran by young college students! I knowe some of the programmers they younger then 30 many of them. Was a cheap budget, highly successful. Thats why EA brought the company.
Player run content is a success in reality. It's proven. However Everquest 1 was easier to design, less risk, high profits, and highly restrictive. Very safe investment. so we will see EQ clones. not because UO failed- no, because player run content is too risky. Developers cannot guarantee how long players will play the game. Devs are baffled why Warcraft 3 and Starcraft are so successful and still played. They think its magic, seriously. but they do know they can drag out the player progression so they do it. It eliminates risk, grabs the mainstream and its an established model (easy for new players to get into).
This static MMO system guarantees the veteran that he will win his battles. Player looting removes that guarantee.
Comments
"...and with that cryptic comment, I'm off to bed!"
Census shows that people prefer consensual PvP instead of hardcore open get-ganked-at-anytime style of PvP. If you check out WoW it clearly shows that PvE-oriented players massively outnumbered PvP-oriented players. Now I say 'oriented' that's because most players partake in a little bit of everything, for example I myself am inclined more to PvE but sometimes I feel like doing PvP when the mood strikes it (I do both). That is why consensual pvp is more popular compared to hardcore open pvp and of course developers must cater to the majority in order for their game to be successful.
Currently playing: Planetside, Americas Army.
Praying to Zeus for: Darkfall.
- CaesarsGhost
Lead Gameplay and Gameworld Designer for a yet unnamed MMO Title.
"When people tell me designing a game is easy, I try to get them to design a board game. Most people don't last 5 minutes, the rest rarely last more then a day. The final few realize it's neither fun nor easy."
As for the investment of millions of dollars, if the game kicks ass it shouldn't be a problem. If it is a sub par mix of many genres that lacks decent pvp because it has to be "consensual" then the PvP market is disappointed. If anything it is not the players that are killing the Genre it is those "money grubbing" game developers who would rather stick to the tried and tested 6 month pve fix, because it is a bigger market. However i dont think the longevity of a game is based around the PvE aspect since eventually you will have all the PvE has to offer. It is the struggle and conflict of the PvP. It is why people still play Daoc and older games that have a good PvP system. And not some endless grind for gear and a half ass attempt at implementing some sort of PvP to try and pull some extra monthly subscriptions.
Sure there is a majority, i just state that maybe a game company could focus on the aspect of PvP and have Pve as supplementary, And i happen to like the thrill of having the possibility that maybe i will get ganked and loose all my stuff, but hey its a game, thats what makes it challenging, i have to keep on edge, i have to be skilled.Not a rez at a graveyard and re-equip my uber gear and be back fighting in 20 seconds. Maybe i live in some idealistic world oozing elitism, but Darkfall will come and save us all
Currently playing: Planetside, Americas Army.
Praying to Zeus for: Darkfall.
Currently playing: Planetside, Americas Army.
Praying to Zeus for: Darkfall.
The fact that someone doesn't like a particular game style doesn't mean that they're "scared" of it. It's pretty telling that the hardcore crowd so often resorts to bullying responses in discussions about game styles; full-loot PVP is not about PVP combat, but in being able to bully people with the threat of taking all their character's stuff.
It's amusing to me that the hardcore crowd whines that people don't join their game to be easy targets, but also accuses other people of wanting things handed to them on a silver platter. It's almost as funny as the fact that the 'hardcore' crowd claim to be PVPers, but want a combat system that requires people to put in more time PVEing for gear than actually engaging in PVP fights (like EVE); real PVPers would rather the game be about PVP combat than about PVE grinding to replace losses.
We aren't talking about WoW PvP where you poke each other once or twice and then have a cup of tea, we're talking about hardcore open PvP.
When we ask people to join our games, or try them out, we don't want them for easy targets but rather as a challenge. If you try and get that sort of challenge in WoW you'll be disappointed when the other person doesn't fight to his or her full potential because they know they wont lose anything if they can't win the fight. This also works both ways, when someone bigger and better comes along and kills us, then takes our gear, it gives us a reason to get that gear back.
-
Do not hate it, but instead embrace the diversity.
The problem with open pvp games, no one likes risk so most of the fights end up being one sided. Eventually the majority of the playerbase gets tired of the gankers and quits. I have seen it happen time and time again. Killing needs to have consequences, I have yet to see a workable model that involves such.
Until someone comes up with a decent model for consequences, these games will be abject failures. Just reading their site, it is pretty obvious the Darkfall people have no clue when it comes to this.
By the way, Eve has open pvp with risk. Many of you neglect to mention that it is doing quite well. It is not the perfect game, but better than anything out there right now.
Yes, I'm aware that you're talking about gank-and-loot PVP.
I might believe that if you could provide an example of a game with a ruleset along those lines that involved mostly people engaging in challenging fights. In actual gank-and-loot PVP games, though, you see ambushes (zone camps, gate camps, etc.), you see people set up for PVP jumping people involved in PVE pursuits, you see big gangs of people jumping smaller groups, you see people with high-level gear jumping on people in noob gear. And you virtually never see people willing to engage in a fight on equal terms.
But the fact is, the 'hardcore' PVP crowd attempts to get people who are not good at PVP and who don't like PVP fights to play their games, and berate them - as an example, the person you quoted me quoting. The most common complaint about UO is that Trammel ruined the game - but all Trammel did was give people who weren't interested in PVP a place to go to avoid it. Were 'hardcore' PVPers really seeking challenging opponents, they'd sing the praises of Trammel in UO since it removed most of the non-challenging guys that would be a waste of time.
The gank-and-loot ruleset punishes players for engaging in competetive fights and rewards them for beating up the weaker kids for their lunch money, if you're really so into challenge why do you want a ruleset that discourages people from seeking challenging fights?
I might believe that if you could provide an example of a game with a ruleset along those lines that involved mostly people engaging in challenging fights. In actual gank-and-loot PVP games, though, you see ambushes (zone camps, gate camps, etc.), you see people set up for PVP jumping people involved in PVE pursuits, you see big gangs of people jumping smaller groups, you see people with high-level gear jumping on people in noob gear. And you virtually never see people willing to engage in a fight on equal terms.
But the fact is, the 'hardcore' PVP crowd attempts to get people who are not good at PVP and who don't like PVP fights to play their games, and berate them - as an example, the person you quoted me quoting. The most common complaint about UO is that Trammel ruined the game - but all Trammel did was give people who weren't interested in PVP a place to go to avoid it. Were 'hardcore' PVPers really seeking challenging opponents, they'd sing the praises of Trammel in UO since it removed most of the non-challenging guys that would be a waste of time.
The gank-and-loot ruleset punishes players for engaging in competetive fights and rewards them for beating up the weaker kids for their lunch money, if you're really so into challenge why do you want a ruleset that discourages people from seeking challenging fights?
I could not possibly quote this for more truth if I tried.
I always love when some "hardcore" pvp type starts blithering about how they want more people to try their game, then, the instance some poor soul logs in for the first time, he is gang raped, and mocked before he can even finish loading in to the world. Oddly enough, they usually log right back out, never to return.
Every other animal in the wild has learned the simple lesson: Do not eat your own young. "Hardcore" pvpers, sadly, can't seem to grasp that simple little concept.
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Do not hate it, but instead embrace the diversity.
Then why is there so many people playing Lineage 2 ?
Its the second largest MMO next to WoW afaiklet me fix that. It won't draw a big crowd in NA or Europe.
okay then what about EvE? and Age of Conan will have it. and city of heroes has FFA zones. people that say this stuff are just totally trolling
why is people dont whine like this in FPS games? thats why i just play those I like playing games with fellow warriors they dont whine on voice chat about being spawn camped. they call in friends and we support each other. I know if i got camped in MMOs id call in my guild and hell that was the sweest, funniest thing ever
so sad, so people just dont like a challenge. they want easy mode. beat down some gimp, retarded mob AI then brag to their fellow guildies in their raid how much skill it took thekm to beatdown that retarded mob AI 1000000 other pve'ers beatdown
And you exemplify "Hardcore"? You're killing weaker players in a video game. It's not as if you're calling Chuck Liddell your prison bitch to his face here, hoss.
why is people dont whine like this in FPS games? thats why i just play those I like playing games with fellow warriors they dont whine on voice chat about being spawn camped. they call in friends and we support each other. I know if i got camped in MMOs id call in my guild and hell that was the sweest, funniest thing ever
so sad, so people just dont like a challenge. they want easy mode. beat down some gimp, retarded mob AI then brag to their fellow guildies in their raid how much skill it took thekm to beatdown that retarded mob AI 1000000 other pve'ers beatdown
You sure do think you know a lot about my personal playstyle, son. Do I know you, or some shit?
It's not about that. think about it- how does loot distribution work right now in current MMOs? fill us in. This is what happens- in WoW, for example, you grind and you grind and you grind for epic lootz. Why?
Its' because the Developers have full control over loot distribution. They generate the loot and they make u farm your butt off for that loot. Everquest 1 taught the industry how to reign in full control over the universe and make it static. easy money for Devs. anything that gives you full control over player progression is so easy for Devs to imagine. its just like a single player game which is a well established model to follow.
But what if I could just take what I want? And all gear was 100% player made? Now players have full control of loot distribution
Now you have pirate, police, and all kinds of professions that give the game more meaning. Now there are no farmers. Why? Cause we can klil'em and loot'em. too risky for farmers to make money and if they stay they will have to group to protect their assets and they actually help the game cause now the players have a lot to gain by robbing the farmers.
Imagine this- you have a bank in your city and some players comes in and robs it. Now u can place a bounty on him. And what if you catch the theif? You can yet money back plus you loot that theif for the tools,etc he used to rob you. He cant just walk into yer bank but naked and rob it. it will cost him money for failing.
Now we have a new profession for thieves, cops, etc. possibilities are endless and seriously mind blowing.
What if he escapes? Well hire a bounty hunter! Now thats another career already!
And why would you grind knowing all loot is disposable? you wont. you play for fun- not grind. sure, you might still push to have a ton of money and get the best stuff. but you will plan it out and use your head. you just wont put on your best gear and walk into a dangerous area alone lol. the truly skilled will put on that best gear and walk out and pwn. The noobs will lose it fast.
Also, you get rewarded for pvp! ding! now pvp has a point. Now we can off someone and we get to split the spoils. We get rewarded for taking down a harder prey with much better loot assuming they had the nutz to wear some real cool stuff.
now players have full control of the server and they dictate their own rules which is risky to developers. And me killing my enemy will set them back. perhaps make them unable to attempt another attack on my guild owned terriority / bank / property. Now, we have -real- warfare. Players will strategize to reduce their risk.
right now why should I play an MMO to PvP? I have no reason. I'm not subbing to anything. About to give EvE and Starport a try soon that's it. because I can get the same experience all other MMOs offer in Battlefield 2142 and that game at least allows me to unlock my main class easily and all gear
you had some good points felt that question was a valid one that barred an anwser. Maybe you havve a different stake on this
And not all hardcore pvpers are animals. most ppl will just simply run by each other. There can be system in place to discourage ganking non-violent players. I dunno, hardcore pvpers dont want restrictions. we do want competition and we want victims if we cant find competition. See this is the thing even Blkizzard discovered. What happened to world pvp in WoW when they introduced Battlegrounds? The pvpers left open pvp and went into the instances. Why? Do pvpers like repetitive gameplay? No! Cause we got the Best rewards from the competition! It is a self governing system. Do you think a robber will rob an old lady knowing good and well shes mostly likely broke? Hell no its not worth the trouble. PvPErs simply need to pointed into a high risk situation to get the ultimate rewards. Then you'll see less rampant, pointless ganking. A lot less. Just look at WoW- many pvpers say open pvp is dead. not all- but many. I know I did
but the essence of it is risk vs reward. just like RL, if I attempt to do something high risk, should be a high reward. its a system controlled by players.
Developers wont do it simply cause they make more money by making players grind. That's it. It's less risk and its easy and its -static-. They have full control over loot distribution. problem is we have seen a severe rise in botters and farmers cause player pop cant do anything about annoying players. we lack control over the worlds we populate.
The key here though is no one really likes being ganked while engaged in a mob. thats only time I dont like open pvp sometimes. But what if I didnt have to farm? What if in this hardcore game I do what I want for -fun-. This is the risk- developers that make MMOs have these budgets but small time frames normally. Publishers want a sure thing. they want to follow an established model and work with an established market. Static, PvE MMOs are a sure thing. of course gamers will get smart in a coupla years and realize its all a sick grindfest.
thus u have the hardcore pvper. they are an anomaly. too the rest of the world they are griefers and gankers. but in reality this is about player run content vs static. Everyone wants dynamic content but until control is handed over to players we will be stuck with static world and "end game".
WAR is at least taking some calculated risks. unfoirtunately they still have full control in the end. I do hope for something truly innovative but sad reality it will take a small budget title to really establish the market most likely. After that, perhaps we'll see something truly cutting edge come down from a mainstream publisher
personally i have no big problem with plaeyrs having their safezones. but the truth of it is if u let 'questers' solo/group in safe zones then u open the door to farmers. plus, now players are getting stuff the easy way. so then a pve'er can walk into a pvp area and pwn all the hardcore guys! Why? Causde the carebear has the best lootz!!! Thus there can be no instances or safe zones to earn best gear
instead, we need a 100% hardcore pvp game. let carebears get their own server. but u cvant have both in the same game. maybe its okay to let them travel through dangerous terriroty to get someplace safe and they can quest there. and thats a strong maybe. but there has to be risk involved and mobs cant respawn in this safezone. thus they force to leave. at best let them choose their spawnpoint. Honestly, this type of game works flawlessly only if we approach it like the PvE based games. We cater to PvP fully. Thus there can be no safe zones. We cannot let a carebear/farmer upset the balance. because surely, a carebear is a farmer. sure, they might not be breaking any laws, etc but they will safely get all their stuff the easy, predictable way if allowed. And we cant cater to this mindset. They must except risks and this will in turn give our pirates something to hang around for. And the loot must be something worthwhile to risk the pirates and their must be loss and the crafter/quester/farmer must have some special ability pirates dont have to risk this (like hard to earn specialized talents perhaps and we only allow one craft type of skill)
it takes a lot of good, solid game design. and it will be hard. there is no established model to follow yet. it will taker a really good designer to develop this and u will have to risk the 'uber guild' problem whereas one huge grioup ruins the game. hopefully players will spread out. permadeath is one way but too hardcore for most lol. the 'uber guild' is the biggest problem.
I do think Faction vs Faction + hardcore looting helps alleviate the problems with FFA pvp. that way its more casual and u dont need an uber guild to do pvp. I think a Faction vs Faction PvP with looting can work better for casual gamers. you have a 'guild' you are apart of. and allow ganking of ppl in your own faction with heavy penalties or just disallow it. it would be much better if you could encourage players to form 'Factions' and then let players affilate with that somehow. Artificial factions just dont have meaning to those that dont roleplay. Guilds are just a bit too hardcore to most casuals is my take on this. Getting newbies up to speed and giving them a fighting chance is what this type of game needs to focus on. Dont just let the noobs go off alone into the wilderness and get smoked. honeslty, the best games usualyl dont have any sort of tutorials per se they teach as players go along or its self-intuitive. yes i am suggesting some minor hand holding here for the carebear (not trying to offend anyone im not referring to ppl posting here) to get up to speed and give them challenges to go harvest some materials in a dangerous area
sorry for the book! I will save this post off somewhere on my site i guess
And you exemplify "Hardcore"? You're killing weaker players in a video game. It's not as if you're calling Chuck Liddell your prison bitch to his face here, hoss.
That's one of the things you need to overcome when playing in a hardcore server, you need to be able to somehow run away and level up, then come back at higher level and kill whoever slaughters you at low level
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Do not hate it, but instead embrace the diversity.
this is the "wool" MMO devs pull over players and its amazing so many fall for this:
It's much easier to design a static MMO (no player looting, level based, classes) and no worries about players ruining your server. Why? Cause they cant do anything to change it and they have -zero- control over loot distribution. They cant even gank a farmer thats harming the economy
unfortunately they are now all plagued by a bad problem- farmers / botters. They auto lvl toons for people and drive up economy to insane, unfeasible prices. and people can pay for it because they get the money mailed to them by a farmer. so its farmer->farmer transactions. not always- but its common just look at all the farmer ads u see even on this site.
Farmers is a risk they accept because they generally dont run ppl off your server wholesale. know anyone that left WoW over farmers? I dont. maybe there are some but thats the extreme minority. perhaps they recognized that stuff on auction house had bloated prices and concluded they couldnt get uber loot ever so quit. which goes back to my reply above- players not having control over anything.
plus you can guarantee your publisher you can maintain customers for 4-5 months with some fancy charts and the established time honored tradition known as classes / levels. they go hand and hand in MMOs becauser they are a form of control. They restrict players options to gain skills thus they must reroll to experiment. Levels guarantee a steady income for months. and once the players exhaust your content well hell lets release an expansion and expand the level cap or sneak in higher levels through more uber loot. It will happen most surely- because even some of your most hardcore questers will get bored
This is all about control- looting players sooooooo much control into the hands of the players. Its a self governing system. Ever see .hack anime? "The World" is a player run MMO in that anime. And see- they have thieves, and player run guards that actually protect the questers. its a player run system and look at how much drama it provides for a simple anime! Check it out you see tons of careers- player created.
The more control you give players the more dynamic the world is. but- its a world Developers dont directly control which is simply too much risk to them.
Can you blame them? What do you do with your money? If you have a 401k or play stock market what do you do? Do you lump all your income into high risk stocks or play it safe to make sure you get a return? you strategize and try to get the inside scoop, you buy low and sell high. you eliminate your risk for max gain. This is how game publishers think. They want safe investmests for their money
We dont see player run worlds not because its a failure. Ultima online had over 200k subs thats a smashing success developed by a game developer based in little old Austin ran by young college students! I knowe some of the programmers they younger then 30 many of them. Was a cheap budget, highly successful. Thats why EA brought the company.
Player run content is a success in reality. It's proven. However Everquest 1 was easier to design, less risk, high profits, and highly restrictive. Very safe investment. so we will see EQ clones. not because UO failed- no, because player run content is too risky. Developers cannot guarantee how long players will play the game. Devs are baffled why Warcraft 3 and Starcraft are so successful and still played. They think its magic, seriously. but they do know they can drag out the player progression so they do it. It eliminates risk, grabs the mainstream and its an established model (easy for new players to get into).
This static MMO system guarantees the veteran that he will win his battles. Player looting removes that guarantee.