I completely disagree. If the child's only goal is to finish the raid and there is no discussing it, then the problem started long before that. Yes I agree you have to show a child who the adult is and where the ultimate authority lies, but if you're expecting your children to act like adults then you treat them like children of course going they are going to be rebellious. You say children need to learn some lessons through retospect, yet I believe adults have just as much to learn. They could have approached the situation differently. Maybe gave him advanced warning that his bedtime was approaching, set up parental controls and discussed it with him to come up with a reasonable time when he had to get off. Simple things so when the time comes it's not such a surprise. They could also take some interest in the games he plays so they understand the frustration he feels when something like this happens. Parents don't realize that what is important to them isn't that same as what is important to their children. Insults and put downs are NEVER the answer and shows how ignorant you really are as a parent. If you want your child to act like an adult you need to treat them like one. Some lessons need to be learnt through experience. If it got to the point like in the sound bye, explain to him that he can play until he is done, but he is responsibly for getting up in the morning and if he oversleeps he's not allowed to play for the next week. Also tell him he is not allowed to go to bed right after school. This will teach the child how to juggle responsibilities with pleasure and allow for him to talk to you on a more mature level rather then revert back to a childlike state. Also rewarding your child for accomplishments is also a great way to motivate him to do better in every aspect of life. If he does well on his report card or his team wins a big game let him play an extra hour one night a week. This will show him that hard work actually does pay off. I just don't understand what that kid is learning from the situation That he has no control over the situation? That is doesn't deserve the respect of having a discussion with his parents? That something is wrong with him for wanting to play something he loves? You think the next time his parents want to have a discussion he's going to listen? If you treat your child like an adult they're going to act like an adult, if you treat them like a child they're going to act like a child. It's as simple as that.
You can say that but a child is always going to be a child and if you do try to treat them like a adult they are going to still act like a child. I know some adults that still act like children I see alot of them everyday in the military. If you tell them to do something they whin and complain about why they got to do it and that your picking on them and so on. I that was my child after I said turn that computer off once and he said in a min. I would busted his but right then and there. That would have stopped all that feedback that we heard and all laughed at.
Hi I'm Ravkeen!
Emilia_Emi Lvl 56 Witch Now Playing : Black Desert Online "America is not at war, the US Military is at war, America is at the mall."
I completely disagree. If the child's only goal is to finish the raid and there is no discussing it, then the problem started long before that. Yes I agree you have to show a child who the adult is and where the ultimate authority lies, but if you're expecting your children to act like adults then you treat them like children of course going they are going to be rebellious. You say children need to learn some lessons through retospect, yet I believe adults have just as much to learn. They could have approached the situation differently. Maybe gave him advanced warning that his bedtime was approaching, set up parental controls and discussed it with him to come up with a reasonable time when he had to get off. Simple things so when the time comes it's not such a surprise. They could also take some interest in the games he plays so they understand the frustration he feels when something like this happens. Parents don't realize that what is important to them isn't that same as what is important to their children. Insults and put downs are NEVER the answer and shows how ignorant you really are as a parent. If you want your child to act like an adult you need to treat them like one. Some lessons need to be learnt through experience. If it got to the point like in the sound bye, explain to him that he can play until he is done, but he is responsibly for getting up in the morning and if he oversleeps he's not allowed to play for the next week. Also tell him he is not allowed to go to bed right after school. This will teach the child how to juggle responsibilities with pleasure and allow for him to talk to you on a more mature level rather then revert back to a childlike state. Also rewarding your child for accomplishments is also a great way to motivate him to do better in every aspect of life. If he does well on his report card or his team wins a big game let him play an extra hour one night a week. This will show him that hard work actually does pay off. I just don't understand what that kid is learning from the situation That he has no control over the situation? That is doesn't deserve the respect of having a discussion with his parents? That something is wrong with him for wanting to play something he loves? You think the next time his parents want to have a discussion he's going to listen? If you treat your child like an adult they're going to act like an adult, if you treat them like a child they're going to act like a child. It's as simple as that.
You can say that but a child is always going to be a child and if you do try to treat them like a adult they are going to still act like a child. I know some adults that still act like children I see alot of them everyday in the military. If you tell them to do something they whin and complain about why they got to do it and that your picking on them and so on. I that was my child after I said turn that computer off once and he said in a min. I would busted his but right then and there. That would have stopped all that feedback that we heard and all laughed at.
That's a usual response from men on the military especially ones with some rank, since they are used to the whole brain dead ordering thing. Comparing a kid with a soldier are two different things. A military man has his brain anyway twinked to learn discipline through blind moronic obedience.
Also just to add, parents who expect their kids to act in an instant in their every command better go buy some pets or see a doctor, because complexes such as these are better not being used on children since rarely they produce any positive result.
A friend is not him who provides support during your failures.A friend is the one that cheers you during your successes.
The situation in that sound byte was rather simple, and it escalated for no reason. Those parents can discuss it until they are blue in the face. The child only cares about finishing the raid. Thats it. Thats all he wants to do, and he will just try to convince them as long as he needs to, in order go back to playing. This has been my parenting experience. I have learned that some life lessons are only learned in retrospect. Only after the incident, only after the child has actually THOUGHT about what happened. When that light bulb goes off that says "You know... dad you were right. Because I went to bed early last night, I was able get up at 6am, and did awesome at my lacrosse game. I should of did that raid in WoW earlier so it could of ended before my bedtime." That is the moment you realize that you are doing a good job parenting. You actually taught your son something valuable about prioritizing. Of course, a parent may only hear this years later lol.
Further down the road in his life, children need to understand priorities. Real life takes precedence over video games. Getting up for school or work is more important than getting to lvl 70 in WoW. If we do not prepare a child for the harsh realities of life, we have no place in being parents. And we wind up with those children becoming the Paris Hiltons of tomorrow.
We can read all the psychiatry books, self help books, or parenting books that we want. It is only when we actually become a parent do we understand what it is really like. It is the most frustrating, infuriating, yet loving, and rewarding thing in life. I wouldn't give it up for the world. Nothing beats going home to a smiling youngen who only wants a hug and say "Hi Daddy!!".
Exactly!
Nice to see someone who understands good old fashioned parenting.
I completely disagree. If the child's only goal is to finish the raid and there is no discussing it, then the problem started long before that. Yes I agree you have to show a child who the adult is and where the ultimate authority lies, but if you're expecting your children to act like adults then you treat them like children of course going they are going to be rebellious. You say children need to learn some lessons through retospect, yet I believe adults have just as much to learn. They could have approached the situation differently. Maybe gave him advanced warning that his bedtime was approaching, set up parental controls and discussed it with him to come up with a reasonable time when he had to get off. Simple things so when the time comes it's not such a surprise.
They could also take some interest in the games he plays so they understand the frustration he feels when something like this happens. Parents don't realize that what is important to them isn't that same as what is important to their children. Insults and put downs are NEVER the answer and shows how ignorant you really are as a parent.
If you want your child to act like an adult you need to treat them like one. Some lessons need to be learnt through experience. If it got to the point like in the sound bye, explain to him that he can play until he is done, but he is responsibly for getting up in the morning and if he oversleeps he's not allowed to play for the next week. Also tell him he is not allowed to go to bed right after school. This will teach the child how to juggle responsibilities with pleasure and allow for him to talk to you on a more mature level rather then revert back to a childlike state.
Also rewarding your child for accomplishments is also a great way to motivate him to do better in every aspect of life. If he does well on his report card or his team wins a big game let him play an extra hour one night a week. This will show him that hard work actually does pay off.
I just don't understand what that kid is learning from the situation
That he has no control over the situation?
That is doesn't deserve the respect of having a discussion with his parents?
That something is wrong with him for wanting to play something he loves?
You think the next time his parents want to have a discussion he's going to listen?
If you treat your child like an adult they're going to act like an adult, if you treat them like a child they're going to act like a child.
It's as simple as that.
Nope. There is nothing to discuss. I dont CARE that he is going to miss out on DKP for the raid. Real life takes priority over a video game. If I say go to bed now, then he is going to bed now. End of discussion. And... any back talk means punishment. More back talk, more punishment. In my house, punishment is in the taking away of privileges. No video games for a week. Two weeks. More back talk, more time away from video games.
Sometimes things can be handled in a democratic manner. Video game play cutting into bedtime with a lacrosse game in the morning that the whole family is going to is not one of these times for me as a dad.
"...and with that cryptic comment, I'm off to bed!"
You can say that but a child is always going to be a child and if you do try to treat them like a adult they are going to still act like a child. I know some adults that still act like children I see alot of them everyday in the military. If you tell them to do something they whin and complain about why they got to do it and that your picking on them and so on. I that was my child after I said turn that computer off once and he said in a min. I would busted his but right then and there. That would have stopped all that feedback that we heard and all laughed at.
If you say that obviously you never tried it. Also it can't be something that happens overnight, especially if they've been interacting with their parents a certain away all their life. You'd be surprised to see that children can be very responsible when a parent allows them to be.
Also I'm not saying that parents should give up authority. They just need to use it responsibly
Also I read many of your posts and to those who say they were spanked and turned out fine I would have to disagree with many of you since you still hold that same mentality as your parents. An adult who spanks a child shows that they have no control over the situation or their child.
I just keep telling myself they just don't know any better.
To Greslore - I won't argue with what you believe in, but I feel bad for your children if you have any.
"The world" is not some abstract manifest cruel abomination thats "outthere to get you".
I appreciate that you comprehended the fact that I was making an abstraction. More to the point, I was making a simplification. In reality, the world isn't "out to get you," but it's not exactly going to shed any tears if you falter. YOU and only YOU are responsible for your life. This is where you an I agree. Where we disagree....
"The world" is what YOU and I make of it
I'd like to ask the victims of Unit 731 in Manchuria or the many prisoners of Paul Pot how they feel about that statement. We do not always have complete control over our environment or circumstances. Sometimes, just sometimes, we have to become what "the world" demands of us.
Given, I doubt that I could have ever been one of the doctors at 731, or a guard at the killing fields (I would rather die painfully than be party to those atrocities), but there are times when the game forces your hand and you are left with the very real decision to die fighting or comply. This is not a fun lesson to learn, let alone teach.
you know that by the way you see yourself, the world and the ability to "just survive" is very much what made and makes the world how it is.
And yet it is the will to survive that drives our advances in all things, including ethics. Behind the facade of religion and philosophy, you'll find that all the moral laws that we adhere to, had at one time, been used to prevent or delay death. Murder is wrong because I don't want to be killed. Theft is wrong because I don't want to lose resources that I need to feed myself and my family. You can go right down the list of common morals and find this theme.
Of cooourse, you deny any responsibility for this, because you are "just trying to get by"
I recognize that my contribution to the state of the world, being 1 out of 6.5 billion, is statistically insignificant. I recognize that I do, on occasion have a moral obligation to defy authority and possibly die for the good of others. I also recognize that the world owes me absolutely nothing and everything I want, need or have, must be worked for.
Th main difference between you and me Meridion, is that you are part of the European bourgeoisie and I was raised as working class American. You had all that you needed and wanted, while I had to work for those things. My father, Mother, and myself after the age of 13 all worked in order to keep one or two paychecks away from poverty. From my life experiences, it becomes very clear, very quickly, that no one is going to take care of you, but you. Take a trip to a third world country. Visit a project in New York or Chicago. Take a very long and sincere look around. You'll soon discover that the lax morality you endorse is a luxury that 80% of the world simply can't afford.
Why are people turning this into a debate about the right way to raise your kid or how to treat them. Different tactics work for different kids and people raise their children differently, it doesn't mean one person is right and one is wrong. Also, did you notice how the kid shut the hell up pretty fast when the dad got really close to him? Sounds like a little kick in the ass would straighten him out, and if you really respect and care more about a game than you do your own parents and family, and lacrosse team, then there's some real problems to be taken care of.
"The world" is not some abstract manifest cruel abomination thats "outthere to get you".
I appreciate that you comprehended the fact that I was making an abstraction. More to the point, I was making a simplification. In reality, the world isn't "out to get you," but it's not exactly going to shed any tears if you falter. YOU and only YOU are responsible for your life. This is where you an I agree. Where we disagree....
"The world" is what YOU and I make of it
I'd like to ask the victims of Unit 731 in Manchuria or the many prisoners of Paul Pot how they feel about that statement. We do not always have complete control over our environment or circumstances. Sometimes, just sometimes, we have to become what "the world" demands of us.
Given, I doubt that I could have ever been one of the doctors at 731, or a guard at the killing fields (I would rather die painfully than be party to those atrocities), but there are times when the game forces your hand and you are left with the very real decision to die fighting or comply. This is not a fun lesson to learn, let alone teach.
you know that by the way you see yourself, the world and the ability to "just survive" is very much what made and makes the world how it is.
And yet it is the will to survive that drives our advances in all things, including ethics. Behind the facade of religion and philosophy, you'll find that all the moral laws that we adhere to, had at one time, been used to prevent or delay death. Murder is wrong because I don't want to be killed. Theft is wrong because I don't want to lose resources that I need to feed myself and my family. You can go right down the list of common morals and find this theme.
Of cooourse, you deny any responsibility for this, because you are "just trying to get by"
I recognize that my contribution to the state of the world, being 1 out of 6.5 billion, is statistically insignificant. I recognize that I do, on occasion have a moral obligation to defy authority and possibly die for the good of others. I also recognize that the world owes me absolutely nothing and everything I want, need or have, must be worked for.
Th main difference between you and me Meridion, is that you are part of the European bourgeoisie and I was raised as working class American. You had all that you needed and wanted, while I had to work for those things. My father, Mother, and myself after the age of 13 all worked in order to keep one or two paychecks away from poverty. From my life experiences, it becomes very clear, very quickly, that no one is going to take care of you, but you. Take a trip to a third world country. Visit a project in New York or Chicago. Take a very long and sincere look around. You'll soon discover that the lax morality you endorse is a luxury that 80% of the world simply can't afford.
Heh "lax morality" it's funny coming from a self styled "working class" guy. Don't get me wrong i don't doubt that you got it tough but a simple fact of life is "moral" and thus laxity of them cannot exist when you are just "trying to survive".
Also you are confusing the "world is what you make of it" with the "what cards you draw".
Plain put if you had not the option in what kind of enviromment you were born but you had at what you could do with it.
And don't start saying you HAD to work. Because many in your state have chosen other roads less "ethical" or just plain quitted.
Morals are the privilege of the powerful or well afforded, not the other way around.
When you are trying to survive you only have time for yourself and your immediate surroundings.
And sorry to bust your bubble Europe has a working class just not the pseudo morality America uses to enforce its ideals on things.
A friend is not him who provides support during your failures.A friend is the one that cheers you during your successes.
I completely disagree. If the child's only goal is to finish the raid and there is no discussing it, then the problem started long before that. Yes I agree you have to show a child who the adult is and where the ultimate authority lies, but if you're expecting your children to act like adults then you treat them like children of course going they are going to be rebellious. You say children need to learn some lessons through retospect, yet I believe adults have just as much to learn. They could have approached the situation differently. Maybe gave him advanced warning that his bedtime was approaching, set up parental controls and discussed it with him to come up with a reasonable time when he had to get off. Simple things so when the time comes it's not such a surprise. They could also take some interest in the games he plays so they understand the frustration he feels when something like this happens. Parents don't realize that what is important to them isn't that same as what is important to their children. Insults and put downs are NEVER the answer and shows how ignorant you really are as a parent. If you want your child to act like an adult you need to treat them like one. Some lessons need to be learnt through experience. If it got to the point like in the sound bye, explain to him that he can play until he is done, but he is responsibly for getting up in the morning and if he oversleeps he's not allowed to play for the next week. Also tell him he is not allowed to go to bed right after school. This will teach the child how to juggle responsibilities with pleasure and allow for him to talk to you on a more mature level rather then revert back to a childlike state. Also rewarding your child for accomplishments is also a great way to motivate him to do better in every aspect of life. If he does well on his report card or his team wins a big game let him play an extra hour one night a week. This will show him that hard work actually does pay off. I just don't understand what that kid is learning from the situation That he has no control over the situation? That is doesn't deserve the respect of having a discussion with his parents? That something is wrong with him for wanting to play something he loves? You think the next time his parents want to have a discussion he's going to listen? If you treat your child like an adult they're going to act like an adult, if you treat them like a child they're going to act like a child. It's as simple as that.
You can say that but a child is always going to be a child and if you do try to treat them like a adult they are going to still act like a child. I know some adults that still act like children I see alot of them everyday in the military. If you tell them to do something they whin and complain about why they got to do it and that your picking on them and so on. I that was my child after I said turn that computer off once and he said in a min. I would busted his but right then and there. That would have stopped all that feedback that we heard and all laughed at.
That's a usual response from men on the military especially ones with some rank, since they are used to the whole brain dead ordering thing. Comparing a kid with a soldier are two different things. A military man has his brain anyway twinked to learn discipline through blind moronic obedience.
Also just to add, parents who expect their kids to act in an instant in their every command better go buy some pets or see a doctor, because complexes such as these are better not being used on children since rarely they produce any positive result.
Ok tell me how those are two different things I'm hoping that was a teenager 1 if a parent would let a 10 year old talk back to them like that they really need to go see someone on how to raise a kid. But back to the topic you are raised to learn discipline at a young age if you was raised right. What to do and what not to do and so own and not to talk back to adults at least I was raised that way. If I didn't follow that my mother would maybe threw something at me a shoe or something. As a child I learned off that if my mother said stop once if I didn’t I knew what was going to happen. Also if you think the military had there brain twinked think again at least not in the Navy.
Hi I'm Ravkeen!
Emilia_Emi Lvl 56 Witch Now Playing : Black Desert Online "America is not at war, the US Military is at war, America is at the mall."
i have to agree its really weak parenting. i dont condone child abuse but a smack here and there isn't abuse.
i wasn't abused as a child, im old and still love my dad more than anyone in the world to this day, but if my dad would have told me to get off the computer, then took a step into the room. i would been pulling the plug and off the chair in 2 seconds.
Originally posted by Meridion My dad never hit me, he never shouted at me, and oh, I've got a girl friend, I'm slim, I have friends and I'm about to finish my MD. When I was 13, my father and I played MIG-29 Fulcrum together and had great times, when I beat all my friends in street fighter after a 12 hour session my father said "god I'm so proud". When I was bad at school he said "comeon, I studied biology, lets team up and I'll help you with this"; when I wrecked my bike because I was a stupid idiot my father said "well, you don't have your bike anymore, that's enough punishment" - oh boy, and it was, my pride AND my bike. Failure itself is defeat enough.
If you break the will of your kids time and again, don't be suprised if they slap you in the face at the age of 30... or worse. I LOVE my father, he is successful, I am successful - and we were a team, right from the start. So just swallow your spanking bulls**t...
Meridion
I have to agree. Hitting a kid only means you've run out of good parenting ideas or have badly mismanaged the situation by allowing your emotions rather then your reasoning abillity to get the best of you. Instilling fear in a child via harsh discipline leads to a potential eventuality of having them be filled with contempt and loathing toward you later on in life and potentially also furthering a disconnect with them toward you. It doesn't happen all the time but it can happen if the situation in which the violence occurred is harsh and/or frequent enough.
Children can also grow numb to a parent hitting them and once that does not work any more what are you going to do as a parent? It's been cited many times that humans like all creatures learn best from positive reinforcement and not very well from negative reinforcement.
This situation could of easily been turned around by the parents had they provided alternatives like.....You can play WoW with your friends today but for the rest of the week you will have to do this and that for me (chores, etc) before you can even play your game.
I am taking a stab in the dark here but it seems like they were using the computer as a baby sitter. I feel that not encouraging your children to go out side and play in order for them to form real social bonds with other kids their own age is a very flawed way of raising a child IMHO. It seems most likely to me that WoW was the baby sitter for this kid and so long as he kept quite no one cared what he did in that game. He seems like he grew to enjoy the game very much so and it grew to be his only real form of relatively safe social interaction with his peers and adults. When the boy realized that his beloved game would be removed at a pivotal moment where he was included into a major group activity online he lashed out. This is very typical negative behaviors seen in the research done by folks like B.F. Skinner in regards to behavior reinforcement and modification.
FYI, here in Germany, if you beat a child, if you only slap it, this is criminal act. Every human being has the unalterable right of not being physically or psychically harmed. It's the law, but hey, who cares about the law anyways, right?
i·ro·ny1 [ahy-ruh-nee, ahy-er-]
–noun, plural -nies.
1. the use of words to convey a meaning that is the opposite of its literal meaning: the irony of her reply, “How nice!” when I said I had to work all weekend.
2. a technique of indicating, as through character or plot development, an intention or attitude opposite to that which is actually or ostensibly stated.
3. (esp. in contemporary writing) a manner of organizing a work so as to give full expression to contradictory or complementary impulses, attitudes, etc., esp. as a means of indicating detachment from a subject, theme, or emotion.
I completely disagree. If the child's only goal is to finish the raid and there is no discussing it, then the problem started long before that. Yes I agree you have to show a child who the adult is and where the ultimate authority lies, but if you're expecting your children to act like adults then you treat them like children of course going they are going to be rebellious. You say children need to learn some lessons through retospect, yet I believe adults have just as much to learn. They could have approached the situation differently. Maybe gave him advanced warning that his bedtime was approaching, set up parental controls and discussed it with him to come up with a reasonable time when he had to get off. Simple things so when the time comes it's not such a surprise. They could also take some interest in the games he plays so they understand the frustration he feels when something like this happens. Parents don't realize that what is important to them isn't that same as what is important to their children. Insults and put downs are NEVER the answer and shows how ignorant you really are as a parent. If you want your child to act like an adult you need to treat them like one. Some lessons need to be learnt through experience. If it got to the point like in the sound bye, explain to him that he can play until he is done, but he is responsibly for getting up in the morning and if he oversleeps he's not allowed to play for the next week. Also tell him he is not allowed to go to bed right after school. This will teach the child how to juggle responsibilities with pleasure and allow for him to talk to you on a more mature level rather then revert back to a childlike state. Also rewarding your child for accomplishments is also a great way to motivate him to do better in every aspect of life. If he does well on his report card or his team wins a big game let him play an extra hour one night a week. This will show him that hard work actually does pay off. I just don't understand what that kid is learning from the situation That he has no control over the situation? That is doesn't deserve the respect of having a discussion with his parents? That something is wrong with him for wanting to play something he loves? You think the next time his parents want to have a discussion he's going to listen? If you treat your child like an adult they're going to act like an adult, if you treat them like a child they're going to act like a child. It's as simple as that.
You can say that but a child is always going to be a child and if you do try to treat them like a adult they are going to still act like a child. I know some adults that still act like children I see alot of them everyday in the military. If you tell them to do something they whin and complain about why they got to do it and that your picking on them and so on. I that was my child after I said turn that computer off once and he said in a min. I would busted his but right then and there. That would have stopped all that feedback that we heard and all laughed at.
That's a usual response from men on the military especially ones with some rank, since they are used to the whole brain dead ordering thing. Comparing a kid with a soldier are two different things. A military man has his brain anyway twinked to learn discipline through blind moronic obedience.
Also just to add, parents who expect their kids to act in an instant in their every command better go buy some pets or see a doctor, because complexes such as these are better not being used on children since rarely they produce any positive result.
Ok tell me how those are two different things I'm hoping that was a teenager 1 if a parent would let a 10 year old talk back to them like that they really need to go see someone on how to raise a kid. But back to the topic you are raised to learn discipline at a young age if you was raised right. What to do and what not to do and so own and not to talk back to adults at least I was raised that way. If I didn't follow that my mother would maybe threw something at me a shoe or something. As a child I learned off that if my mother said stop once if I didn’t I knew what was going to happen. Also if you think the military had there brain twinked think again at least not in the Navy.
Talking back to adults in general is a subject of much debate. Many times i have noticed people say that when a kid just pointed out an incosistency to someone. There's a difference teaching a kid to respect his elders due to their experience and what they have done with it and don't argue with them as a show of respect and one thing forcing not to talk back when they see something wrong "just because". Moderation, maturity and lack of arrogance are the keys here not just teaching the kid to "what's right" without teaching also the reasoning behind it.
I said that about the military because in my country i served also for 2 years as part of the draft that is compulsory for all men between 18-27. Most of the military men have a certain dispotition in their way of thinking that it affects also their families, since following unquestionably is more appreciated over good results. That's why it is not unusual to see their kids get out of control because of that. I never argued that a parent shouldn't be firm with their kids but also they have to balance with reasoning so the kid will understand and develop normally rather than just following mechanically directives their parents gave them to him.
A friend is not him who provides support during your failures.A friend is the one that cheers you during your successes.
Pulling the "European aristocrate" card is so cheap it hurts, really. Pulling the "morale is defined by necessity" card is... oh boy... Example? - Mahatma Ghandi didn't have anything besides his spirit and intellect, he had to work for everything and he stood up for a morale that was so way of his everyday life it hit the british house of commons right in the face... So "yay, we are not Mahatma Ghandi" you would probably say. No, we are not, but we make the difference. If I teach my child understanding, if I let him learn the lessons of life, not my self-righteous lessons of synthetic cause and effect; if I teach him responsibility he has to GET responsible for something, and first of all for the most integral thing, his own life.
This is not about necessity, this is not about ethics, it is about communication, about living together. When I moved to Heidelberg few years ago I lived in a community with 2 other young men. No parents, no ruleset, no punishment; The appartment looked like piled up hell of rotting food and withering dishes, left after long parties. Until we realized that this can't go on, it just doesn't work, we don't feel well, it stinks, it's dirty (I'm exaggerating a little here, fyi); so we sat together and we made a cleaning plan, we organized the household and we got the appartment straight. Everything worked out until I moved out to live with my wife.
This is the perfect example of how basic learning processes work. Without authority, without any parenting, out of our own understanding and our own will we got this straight. Basic democracy, one led the cleaning and one looked that everything was done right, cycling every two weeks.
We proved, in a 3 guys household, that democracy and learning by failing/succeeding WORKS; and it is my deep understanding that this applies the very same way to children, maybe not at the age of 4, but when they get to school this works, they are HUMANS, not animals, they are intelligent and inherently socializing.
I imagine that same scenerio 15 years from now only his wife will him him with a frying pan. "I have 15 minutes until I need to leave for work, pleeeease!"
All children are different and respond differently to punishment. Knowing that is paramount when it comes to raising a mentally healthy kid that's not a bastard. The whole point is that it starts when they are very young. From that clip I got the idea that "talking about feelings" was the gameplan in that house and it did not work on that particular child.
From the sounds of it the parents went to bed and woke up at 6am to find their child still playing WoW. If I was the parent? One 5 minute warning to let his raid know he was leaving. If he wasn't off by then I would walk in, unplug all of the wires from the tower and tell him it has been confiscated until further notice.
Pulling the "European aristocrate" card is so cheap it hurts, really. Pulling the "morale is defined by necessity" card is... oh boy... Example? - Mahatma Ghandi didn't have anything besides his spirit and intellect, he had to work for everything and he stood up for a morale that was so way of his everyday life it hit the british house of commons right in the face... So "yay, we are not Mahatma Ghandi" you would probably say. No, we are not, but we make the difference. If I teach my child understanding, if I let him learn the lessons of life, not my self-righteous lessons of synthetic cause and effect; if I teach him responsibility he has to GET responsible for something, and first of all for the most integral thing, his own life.
This is not about necessity, this is not about ethics, it is about communication, about living together. When I moved to Heidelberg few years ago I lived in a community with 2 other young men. No parents, no ruleset, no punishment; The appartment looked like piled up hell of rotting food and withering dishes, left after long parties. Until we realized that this can't go on, it just doesn't work, we don't feel well, it stinks, it's dirty (I'm exaggerating a little here, fyi); so we sat together and we made a cleaning plan, we organized the household and we got the appartment straight. Everything worked out until I moved out to live with my wife.
This is the perfect example of how basic learning processes work. Without authority, without any parenting, out of our own understanding and our own will we got this straight. Basic democracy, one led the cleaning and one looked that everything was done right, cycling every two weeks.
We proved, in a 3 guys household, that democracy and learning by failing/succeeding WORKS; and it is my deep understanding that this applies the very same way to children, maybe not at the age of 4, but when they get to school this works, they are HUMANS, not animals, they are intelligent and inherently socializing.
Meridion
A parent's mantra:
"A fool learns from his own mistakes, a wise person learns from the mistakes of others."
"...and with that cryptic comment, I'm off to bed!"
I imagine that same scenerio 15 years from now only his wife will him him with a frying pan. "I have 15 minutes until I need to leave for work, pleeeease!" All children are different and respond differently to punishment. Knowing that is paramount when it comes to raising a mentally healthy kid that's not a bastard. The whole point is that it starts when they are very young. From that clip I got the idea that "talking about feelings" was the gameplan in that house and it did not work on that particular child. From the sounds of it the parents went to bed and woke up at 6am to find their child still playing WoW. If I was the parent? One 5 minute warning to let his raid know he was leaving. If he wasn't off by then I would walk in, unplug all of the wires from the tower and tell him it has been confiscated until further notice.
And what right do you have to unplug the computer while he is in the middle of something? Oh, all the right because it's your house and you set the guidelines. Is he paying the bills, especially the internet bill which is required to play his game? And Meridion, yes people learn over time from mistakes and what not, but when there are no consequences and nothing at stake, what reason would there be to change what you're doing already? They said he hasn't woken up at 6AM in over a year so he probably isn't going to learn from it because he probably won't be waking up that early any time again soon. In your case you had a house that you paid for and also what people would think when they would come in and see nasty shit laying everywhere, so you had a reason to clean up and learn from it.
Pulling the "European aristocrate" card is so cheap it hurts, really. Pulling the "morale is defined by necessity" card is... oh boy... Example? - Mahatma Ghandi didn't have anything besides his spirit and intellect, he had to work for everything and he stood up for a morale that was so way of his everyday life it hit the british house of commons right in the face... So "yay, we are not Mahatma Ghandi" you would probably say. No, we are not, but we make the difference. If I teach my child understanding, if I let him learn the lessons of life, not my self-righteous lessons of synthetic cause and effect; if I teach him responsibility he has to GET responsible for something, and first of all for the most integral thing, his own life.
This is not about necessity, this is not about ethics, it is about communication, about living together. When I moved to Heidelberg few years ago I lived in a community with 2 other young men. No parents, no ruleset, no punishment; The appartment looked like piled up hell of rotting food and withering dishes, left after long parties. Until we realized that this can't go on, it just doesn't work, we don't feel well, it stinks, it's dirty (I'm exaggerating a little here, fyi); so we sat together and we made a cleaning plan, we organized the household and we got the appartment straight. Everything worked out until I moved out to live with my wife.
This is the perfect example of how basic learning processes work. Without authority, without any parenting, out of our own understanding and our own will we got this straight. Basic democracy, one led the cleaning and one looked that everything was done right, cycling every two weeks.
We proved, in a 3 guys household, that democracy and learning by failing/succeeding WORKS; and it is my deep understanding that this applies the very same way to children, maybe not at the age of 4, but when they get to school this works, they are HUMANS, not animals, they are intelligent and inherently socializing.
Meridion
A parent's mantra:
"A fool learns from his own mistakes, a wise person learns from the mistakes of others."
"A wise man is a fool with experience in his own mistakes" it's also another mantra.
A friend is not him who provides support during your failures.A friend is the one that cheers you during your successes.
Don't get me wrong i don't doubt that you got it tough but a simple fact of life is "moral" and thus laxity of them cannot exist when you are just "trying to survive".
Um, yes, you can be lax in morals when your morality is based on survival. How? By encouraging behavior that runs contrary to survival. While I'm sure that Miridion's parents knew him well enough to know what he would and would not respond to, another person in that same situation would have turned out entirely different. In the situation I was raised in, reactions had to sometimes be automatic. Negative reenforcement is designed specifically to create these kinds of automatic responses. You don't steal from those that that you rely on. You don't kill anyone since the combination of law enforcement and revenge makes your chances of survival less than hopeless. Ditto for rape. While I didn't have to be punished overtly to learn those things, the lessons were based on previous lessons on how to treat others. The greatest danger you will ever encounter in life, comes from other people. Treat them with respect, or they will deal with you.
Also you are confusing the "world is what you make of it" with the "what cards you draw".
Not exactly sure that I like the card game analogy actually. I've come a long way from where I've started, by sheer force of will and hard work. The world didn't change for me. I was the one that changed. I don't "make" the "world" into anything. I make myself into something more survivable. Even so, there are times when you are unable to improve your situation no matter what actions you take and history has many examples.
I'm further ahead of the game than I was 10 years ago, but that doesn't change the fact that the world isn't going to do a damn thing to help me along.
And don't start saying you HAD to work. Because many in your state have chosen other roads less "ethical" or just plain quitted.
Don't think for a minute that some of those less "ethical" means weren't also used. The dirty little secret about drug dealers is that most of them are dirt poor. Even with all three of us working, and doing other shady things, there was just barely enough for us to live in a two bedroom house with no phone and a wood stove. It got better, but largely due to things that were largely out of our control like the number of good paying jobs that were available. I still completed high school and did other normal things. But Make no mistake, the world doesn't change for anyone. You have to change to survive in the world. Punishment is a mild lesson in that very reality.
Morals are the privilege of the powerful or well afforded, not the other way around.
Actually I would say that morals exist on both sides they just have very different forms and motivations. But that would be going way too far off topic.
And sorry to bust your bubble Europe has a working class just not the pseudo morality America uses to enforce its ideals on things.
Yes, a working class that Miridion admitted to not being a part of. Furthermore, Miridion admitted that his parents were also not a part of the working class. This wasn't meant as an insult or one-upsmanship. It was meant to point out a schism that prevented us from seeing eye to eye on this matter.
@ Meridion - I appreciate what you're trying to say, but surely you've seen the effects of MMOG playing taken to the extreme. I've seen grown adults ruin their careers, flunk out of school, and lose people they loved due to their inability to walk away from online gaming. I've seen guys who would never leave the computer except for bathroom breaks and the daily trip to the 7-11 across the street for mountain dew and snack cakes.
Once again, I'm not saying that MMOGs are inherently addictive like heroin, or that they cannot be played with moderation. But if a teenager goes into a "terrible twos" meltdown because he can't finish a raid on a school night, that kid has a problem. And the parents should respond accordingly by strictly limiting access to WOW until the kid can learn to set priorities and play the game in moderation.
Don't get me wrong i don't doubt that you got it tough but a simple fact of life is "moral" and thus laxity of them cannot exist when you are just "trying to survive".
Um, yes, you can be lax in morals when your morality is based on survival. How? By encouraging behavior that runs contrary to survival. While I'm sure that Miridion's parents knew him well enough to know what he would and would not respond to, another person in that same situation would have turned out entirely different. In the situation I was raised in, reactions had to sometimes be automatic. Negative reenforcement is designed specifically to create these kinds of automatic responses. You don't steal from those that that you rely on. You don't kill anyone since the combination of law enforcement and revenge makes your chances of survival less than hopeless. Ditto for rape. While I didn't have to be punished overtly to learn those things, the lessons were based on previous lessons on how to treat others. The greatest danger you will ever encounter in life, comes from other people. Treat them with respect, or they will deal with you.
On that you have a point. Although you don't treat people with respect because then they will deal you, since there are many situations that this can be circumvented but because it's something that you feel. Negative reinforcement is extremely tricky inside the family since it backfires very easily or just passes wrong messages. It is a tool though if you know how to use it and not abuse it.
Also you are confusing the "world is what you make of it" with the "what cards you draw".
Not exactly sure that I like the card game analogy actually. I've come a long way from where I've started, by sheer force of will and hard work. The world didn't change for me. I was the one that changed. I don't "make" the "world" into anything. I make myself into something more survivable. Even so, there are times when you are unable to improve your situation no matter what actions you take and history has many examples.
I'm further ahead of the game than I was 10 years ago, but that doesn't change the fact that the world isn't going to do a damn thing to help me along.
But that's actually the meaning of the phrase. It's phrase for self-awareness. Pretty much when you fight for something and put efforts to better yourself you change yourself even a bit. And each person for better or for worse is a world by itself since he/she can't perceive more than that.
And don't start saying you HAD to work. Because many in your state have chosen other roads less "ethical" or just plain quitted.
Don't think for a minute that some of those less "ethical" means weren't also used. The dirty little secret about drug dealers is that most of them are dirt poor. Even with all three of us working, and doing other shady things, there was just barely enough for us to live in a two bedroom house with no phone and a wood stove. It got better, but largely due to things that were largely out of our control like the number of good paying jobs that were available. I still completed high school and did other normal things. But Make no mistake, the world doesn't change for anyone. You have to change to survive in the world. Punishment is a mild lesson in that very reality.
I am sure about it and I agree. As I said above the whole meaning of the phrase is centered around the perception that each person is the world, as important or unimportant as the rest.
Morals are the privilege of the powerful or well afforded, not the other way around.
Actually I would say that morals exist on both sides they just have very different forms and motivations. But that would be going way too far off topic.
Here I just meant that the more strong one is and better equipped he is able to enforce, adapt, improve them as needed in contrast to those more ill equipped, not whether or not it is possible to have them.
And sorry to bust your bubble Europe has a working class just not the pseudo morality America uses to enforce its ideals on things.
Yes, a working class that Miridion admitted to not being a part of. Furthermore, Miridion admitted that his parents were also not a part of the working class. This wasn't meant as an insult or one-upsmanship. It was meant to point out a schism that prevented us from seeing eye to eye on this matter.
I understand. Thanks for pointing it out. Because I happen myself to work from 16 to support myself so I can see from where you are coming.
Thing is most views concerning that are largely influenced by our own experiences and what we made of them. That makes them not less or more valid, just a different perspective on the whole truth.
A friend is not him who provides support during your failures.A friend is the one that cheers you during your successes.
Comments
Dulce et decorum, pour my heart out on the forum.
Hi I'm Ravkeen!
Emilia_Emi Lvl 56 Witch
Now Playing : Black Desert Online
"America is not at war, the US Military is at war, America is at the mall."
That's a usual response from men on the military especially ones with some rank, since they are used to the whole brain dead ordering thing. Comparing a kid with a soldier are two different things. A military man has his brain anyway twinked to learn discipline through blind moronic obedience.
Also just to add, parents who expect their kids to act in an instant in their every command better go buy some pets or see a doctor, because complexes such as these are better not being used on children since rarely they produce any positive result.
A friend is not him who provides support during your failures.A friend is the one that cheers you during your successes.
Exactly!
Nice to see someone who understands good old fashioned parenting.
I completely disagree. If the child's only goal is to finish the raid and there is no discussing it, then the problem started long before that. Yes I agree you have to show a child who the adult is and where the ultimate authority lies, but if you're expecting your children to act like adults then you treat them like children of course going they are going to be rebellious. You say children need to learn some lessons through retospect, yet I believe adults have just as much to learn. They could have approached the situation differently. Maybe gave him advanced warning that his bedtime was approaching, set up parental controls and discussed it with him to come up with a reasonable time when he had to get off. Simple things so when the time comes it's not such a surprise.
They could also take some interest in the games he plays so they understand the frustration he feels when something like this happens. Parents don't realize that what is important to them isn't that same as what is important to their children. Insults and put downs are NEVER the answer and shows how ignorant you really are as a parent.
If you want your child to act like an adult you need to treat them like one. Some lessons need to be learnt through experience. If it got to the point like in the sound bye, explain to him that he can play until he is done, but he is responsibly for getting up in the morning and if he oversleeps he's not allowed to play for the next week. Also tell him he is not allowed to go to bed right after school. This will teach the child how to juggle responsibilities with pleasure and allow for him to talk to you on a more mature level rather then revert back to a childlike state.
Also rewarding your child for accomplishments is also a great way to motivate him to do better in every aspect of life. If he does well on his report card or his team wins a big game let him play an extra hour one night a week. This will show him that hard work actually does pay off.
I just don't understand what that kid is learning from the situation
That he has no control over the situation?
That is doesn't deserve the respect of having a discussion with his parents?
That something is wrong with him for wanting to play something he loves?
You think the next time his parents want to have a discussion he's going to listen?
If you treat your child like an adult they're going to act like an adult, if you treat them like a child they're going to act like a child.
It's as simple as that.
Nope. There is nothing to discuss. I dont CARE that he is going to miss out on DKP for the raid. Real life takes priority over a video game. If I say go to bed now, then he is going to bed now. End of discussion. And... any back talk means punishment. More back talk, more punishment. In my house, punishment is in the taking away of privileges. No video games for a week. Two weeks. More back talk, more time away from video games.Sometimes things can be handled in a democratic manner. Video game play cutting into bedtime with a lacrosse game in the morning that the whole family is going to is not one of these times for me as a dad.
"...and with that cryptic comment, I'm off to bed!"
If you say that obviously you never tried it. Also it can't be something that happens overnight, especially if they've been interacting with their parents a certain away all their life. You'd be surprised to see that children can be very responsible when a parent allows them to be.
Also I'm not saying that parents should give up authority. They just need to use it responsibly
Also I read many of your posts and to those who say they were spanked and turned out fine I would have to disagree with many of you since you still hold that same mentality as your parents. An adult who spanks a child shows that they have no control over the situation or their child.
I just keep telling myself they just don't know any better.
To Greslore - I won't argue with what you believe in, but I feel bad for your children if you have any.
I appreciate that you comprehended the fact that I was making an abstraction. More to the point, I was making a simplification. In reality, the world isn't "out to get you," but it's not exactly going to shed any tears if you falter. YOU and only YOU are responsible for your life. This is where you an I agree. Where we disagree....
"The world" is what YOU and I make of it
I'd like to ask the victims of Unit 731 in Manchuria or the many prisoners of Paul Pot how they feel about that statement. We do not always have complete control over our environment or circumstances. Sometimes, just sometimes, we have to become what "the world" demands of us.
Given, I doubt that I could have ever been one of the doctors at 731, or a guard at the killing fields (I would rather die painfully than be party to those atrocities), but there are times when the game forces your hand and you are left with the very real decision to die fighting or comply. This is not a fun lesson to learn, let alone teach.
you know that by the way you see yourself, the world and the ability to "just survive" is very much what made and makes the world how it is.
And yet it is the will to survive that drives our advances in all things, including ethics. Behind the facade of religion and philosophy, you'll find that all the moral laws that we adhere to, had at one time, been used to prevent or delay death. Murder is wrong because I don't want to be killed. Theft is wrong because I don't want to lose resources that I need to feed myself and my family. You can go right down the list of common morals and find this theme.
Of cooourse, you deny any responsibility for this, because you are "just trying to get by"
I recognize that my contribution to the state of the world, being 1 out of 6.5 billion, is statistically insignificant. I recognize that I do, on occasion have a moral obligation to defy authority and possibly die for the good of others. I also recognize that the world owes me absolutely nothing and everything I want, need or have, must be worked for.
Th main difference between you and me Meridion, is that you are part of the European bourgeoisie and I was raised as working class American. You had all that you needed and wanted, while I had to work for those things. My father, Mother, and myself after the age of 13 all worked in order to keep one or two paychecks away from poverty. From my life experiences, it becomes very clear, very quickly, that no one is going to take care of you, but you. Take a trip to a third world country. Visit a project in New York or Chicago. Take a very long and sincere look around. You'll soon discover that the lax morality you endorse is a luxury that 80% of the world simply can't afford.
"...and with that cryptic comment, I'm off to bed!"
A friend is not him who provides support during your failures.A friend is the one that cheers you during your successes.
That's a usual response from men on the military especially ones with some rank, since they are used to the whole brain dead ordering thing. Comparing a kid with a soldier are two different things. A military man has his brain anyway twinked to learn discipline through blind moronic obedience.
Also just to add, parents who expect their kids to act in an instant in their every command better go buy some pets or see a doctor, because complexes such as these are better not being used on children since rarely they produce any positive result.
Hi I'm Ravkeen!
Emilia_Emi Lvl 56 Witch
Now Playing : Black Desert Online
"America is not at war, the US Military is at war, America is at the mall."
i have to agree its really weak parenting. i dont condone child abuse but a smack here and there isn't abuse.
i wasn't abused as a child, im old and still love my dad more than anyone in the world to this day, but if my dad would have told me to get off the computer, then took a step into the room. i would been pulling the plug and off the chair in 2 seconds.
I have to agree. Hitting a kid only means you've run out of good parenting ideas or have badly mismanaged the situation by allowing your emotions rather then your reasoning abillity to get the best of you. Instilling fear in a child via harsh discipline leads to a potential eventuality of having them be filled with contempt and loathing toward you later on in life and potentially also furthering a disconnect with them toward you. It doesn't happen all the time but it can happen if the situation in which the violence occurred is harsh and/or frequent enough.
Children can also grow numb to a parent hitting them and once that does not work any more what are you going to do as a parent? It's been cited many times that humans like all creatures learn best from positive reinforcement and not very well from negative reinforcement.
This situation could of easily been turned around by the parents had they provided alternatives like.....You can play WoW with your friends today but for the rest of the week you will have to do this and that for me (chores, etc) before you can even play your game.
I am taking a stab in the dark here but it seems like they were using the computer as a baby sitter. I feel that not encouraging your children to go out side and play in order for them to form real social bonds with other kids their own age is a very flawed way of raising a child IMHO. It seems most likely to me that WoW was the baby sitter for this kid and so long as he kept quite no one cared what he did in that game. He seems like he grew to enjoy the game very much so and it grew to be his only real form of relatively safe social interaction with his peers and adults. When the boy realized that his beloved game would be removed at a pivotal moment where he was included into a major group activity online he lashed out. This is very typical negative behaviors seen in the research done by folks like B.F. Skinner in regards to behavior reinforcement and modification.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinforcement
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
Game(s) I Am Currently Playing:
GW2 (+LoL and BF3)
Talking back to adults in general is a subject of much debate. Many times i have noticed people say that when a kid just pointed out an incosistency to someone. There's a difference teaching a kid to respect his elders due to their experience and what they have done with it and don't argue with them as a show of respect and one thing forcing not to talk back when they see something wrong "just because". Moderation, maturity and lack of arrogance are the keys here not just teaching the kid to "what's right" without teaching also the reasoning behind it.
I said that about the military because in my country i served also for 2 years as part of the draft that is compulsory for all men between 18-27. Most of the military men have a certain dispotition in their way of thinking that it affects also their families, since following unquestionably is more appreciated over good results. That's why it is not unusual to see their kids get out of control because of that. I never argued that a parent shouldn't be firm with their kids but also they have to balance with reasoning so the kid will understand and develop normally rather than just following mechanically directives their parents gave them to him.
A friend is not him who provides support during your failures.A friend is the one that cheers you during your successes.
This is not about necessity, this is not about ethics, it is about communication, about living together. When I moved to Heidelberg few years ago I lived in a community with 2 other young men. No parents, no ruleset, no punishment; The appartment looked like piled up hell of rotting food and withering dishes, left after long parties. Until we realized that this can't go on, it just doesn't work, we don't feel well, it stinks, it's dirty (I'm exaggerating a little here, fyi); so we sat together and we made a cleaning plan, we organized the household and we got the appartment straight. Everything worked out until I moved out to live with my wife.
This is the perfect example of how basic learning processes work. Without authority, without any parenting, out of our own understanding and our own will we got this straight. Basic democracy, one led the cleaning and one looked that everything was done right, cycling every two weeks.
We proved, in a 3 guys household, that democracy and learning by failing/succeeding WORKS; and it is my deep understanding that this applies the very same way to children, maybe not at the age of 4, but when they get to school this works, they are HUMANS, not animals, they are intelligent and inherently socializing.
Meridion
I imagine that same scenerio 15 years from now only his wife will him him with a frying pan. "I have 15 minutes until I need to leave for work, pleeeease!"
All children are different and respond differently to punishment. Knowing that is paramount when it comes to raising a mentally healthy kid that's not a bastard. The whole point is that it starts when they are very young. From that clip I got the idea that "talking about feelings" was the gameplan in that house and it did not work on that particular child.
From the sounds of it the parents went to bed and woke up at 6am to find their child still playing WoW. If I was the parent? One 5 minute warning to let his raid know he was leaving. If he wasn't off by then I would walk in, unplug all of the wires from the tower and tell him it has been confiscated until further notice.
Just not worth my time anymore.
"A fool learns from his own mistakes, a wise person learns from the mistakes of others."
"...and with that cryptic comment, I'm off to bed!"
"A fool learns from his own mistakes, a wise person learns from the mistakes of others."
"A wise man is a fool with experience in his own mistakes" it's also another mantra.
A friend is not him who provides support during your failures.A friend is the one that cheers you during your successes.
Um, yes, you can be lax in morals when your morality is based on survival. How? By encouraging behavior that runs contrary to survival. While I'm sure that Miridion's parents knew him well enough to know what he would and would not respond to, another person in that same situation would have turned out entirely different. In the situation I was raised in, reactions had to sometimes be automatic. Negative reenforcement is designed specifically to create these kinds of automatic responses. You don't steal from those that that you rely on. You don't kill anyone since the combination of law enforcement and revenge makes your chances of survival less than hopeless. Ditto for rape. While I didn't have to be punished overtly to learn those things, the lessons were based on previous lessons on how to treat others. The greatest danger you will ever encounter in life, comes from other people. Treat them with respect, or they will deal with you.
Also you are confusing the "world is what you make of it" with the "what cards you draw".
Not exactly sure that I like the card game analogy actually. I've come a long way from where I've started, by sheer force of will and hard work. The world didn't change for me. I was the one that changed. I don't "make" the "world" into anything. I make myself into something more survivable. Even so, there are times when you are unable to improve your situation no matter what actions you take and history has many examples.
I'm further ahead of the game than I was 10 years ago, but that doesn't change the fact that the world isn't going to do a damn thing to help me along.
And don't start saying you HAD to work. Because many in your state have chosen other roads less "ethical" or just plain quitted.
Don't think for a minute that some of those less "ethical" means weren't also used. The dirty little secret about drug dealers is that most of them are dirt poor. Even with all three of us working, and doing other shady things, there was just barely enough for us to live in a two bedroom house with no phone and a wood stove. It got better, but largely due to things that were largely out of our control like the number of good paying jobs that were available. I still completed high school and did other normal things. But Make no mistake, the world doesn't change for anyone. You have to change to survive in the world. Punishment is a mild lesson in that very reality.
Morals are the privilege of the powerful or well afforded, not the other way around.
Actually I would say that morals exist on both sides they just have very different forms and motivations. But that would be going way too far off topic.
And sorry to bust your bubble Europe has a working class just not the pseudo morality America uses to enforce its ideals on things.
Yes, a working class that Miridion admitted to not being a part of. Furthermore, Miridion admitted that his parents were also not a part of the working class. This wasn't meant as an insult or one-upsmanship. It was meant to point out a schism that prevented us from seeing eye to eye on this matter.
@ Meridion - I appreciate what you're trying to say, but surely you've seen the effects of MMOG playing taken to the extreme. I've seen grown adults ruin their careers, flunk out of school, and lose people they loved due to their inability to walk away from online gaming. I've seen guys who would never leave the computer except for bathroom breaks and the daily trip to the 7-11 across the street for mountain dew and snack cakes.
Once again, I'm not saying that MMOGs are inherently addictive like heroin, or that they cannot be played with moderation. But if a teenager goes into a "terrible twos" meltdown because he can't finish a raid on a school night, that kid has a problem. And the parents should respond accordingly by strictly limiting access to WOW until the kid can learn to set priorities and play the game in moderation.
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And yet another:
"It is necessary for us to learn from others' mistakes. You will not live long enough to make them all yourself." Admiral Hyman Rickover
A friend is not him who provides support during your failures.A friend is the one that cheers you during your successes.