Well all I got to say is if it is true then Ill be ready to sign up and play again and could care less what has happened in the past. Pre-cu was definatly the most fun version for me and I would rejoin that game in a heartbeat and cancel wow acct soon as it went live.I had way too much fun and never has there been another game out there that made me feel the way SWG Pre-Cu did . If not ill continue in WoW until Conan releases.
I really love how, after so much proof to the contrary, some people here still insist on blaming SoE for the NGE, and even go so far as to blame Smedley personally. LOL
Lets look at some facts here...
There have been more then a few people (test-server players, friends of devs, devs, execs and other insiders from both SoE and LA) that have come out and said that the NGE was basically forced down SoEs throat.
The main reason these people said LucasArts dreamed up the NGE was b/c they had just released the best-selling Star Wars game in history, Battlefront, and they thought they could siphon some of Battlefronts success into SWG by making it more twitch-based and taking alot of the complexity out of the game to help it appeal to a wider audience.
It's no secret that LucasArts was never really happy w/ the subscription numbers of SWG, so after a bit of time they decided to take a more active role in the development of the game. This led to things like the CU and the NGE.
Also, LucasArts, as the License holder, had to approve EVERYTHING that went into the game to ensure it was up to snuff and represented the license well. This fact alone should tell everyone that regardless of what SoE develops, LA had the ultimate say in what went on in the games development.
I know blame must be placed somewhere, I just don't understand why you all choose on crucifying SoE. Oh, and to all the people that said stuff like "Look @ EQ, EQ2 and Vanguard" in a negative connotation and such other nonsense....yes, lets do that shall we?
EQ - Hands down the best, and most popular MMO in it's early years. If anything, SoE has took a very active role in making the game BETTER since they took the helm from Verant..Now, let me ask you this.....
When SWG was released, what was it closer to in terms of gameplay? EverQuest or Star Wars-Battlefront (w/ some RPG elements tacked on)? it was MUCH closer to EQ right? Yeah, that's b/c they took what they found worked in EQ, and then developed a game that followed pretty close along those same lines with some adjustments to fit the settings and universe. So why in the world would SoE break their own precedent, and in the middle of a games life make such drastic changes to make it completely unlike any game they had developed previously? Right, they wouldn't. And they didn't b/c the NGE was LA's idea.
EQ2 - Now, EQ2 had a pretty rough beginning, no secret there. The main reason I feel the game had it so rough early on was b/c EQ2's development started under some guy named Brad McQuaid and that shows by how closely early EQ2 mirrors what Vangaurd did. It wasn't until he left and had been gone for awhile that SoE scrapped the cruddy parts of EQ2 and were able to salvage the game from hell. Now, after EQ2 has been under Scott Hartsmans, and gasp, Smedely's watchful eyes that the game has become what it is today. And that's a pretty damned good game, but I'm sure you SoE haters wouldn't admit that b/c you're probably too busy hating SoE to have given it a shot.
Vanguard - Alright, I would LOVE to hear how it was SoE's fault that game got screwed up so bad. It's been well documented that the game tanked b/c of horrendous mis-management by Sigil (mainly one person in paticular, Mr. Brad McQuaid). I guess you're hating on SoE b/c of the firings of so many Sigil employees, well guess what? When an MMO goes from active pre-release development to post-release content developement and maintanance they don't need as many developers. Not only that, but it seems that Sigil had more employees then it needed anyway. Maybe it's the way they were fired? Well, that's no ones fault but Sigils management, they could've handled that situation better then taking the employees out in the lot and giving them the axe.
Go ahead, tear all that apart as I'm sure you guys want to.
I really love how, after so much proof to the contrary, some people here still insist on blaming SoE for the NGE, and even go so far as to blame Smedley personally. LOL
Lets look at some facts here...
There have been more then a few people (test-server players, friends of devs, devs, execs and other insiders from both SoE and LA) that have come out and said that the NGE was basically forced down SoEs throat.
The main reason these people said LucasArts dreamed up the NGE was b/c they had just released the best-selling Star Wars game in history, Battlefront, and they thought they could siphon some of Battlefronts success into SWG by making it more twitch-based and taking alot of the complexity out of the game to help it appeal to a wider audience.
It's no secret that LucasArts was never really happy w/ the subscription numbers of SWG, so after a bit of time they decided to take a more active role in the development of the game. This led to things like the CU and the NGE.
Also, LucasArts, as the License holder, had to approve EVERYTHING that went into the game to ensure it was up to snuff and represented the license well. This fact alone should tell everyone that regardless of what SoE develops, LA had the ultimate say in what went on in the games development.
I know blame must be placed somewhere, I just don't understand why you all choose on crucifying SoE. Oh, and to all the people that said stuff like "Look @ EQ, EQ2 and Vanguard" in a negative connotation and such other nonsense....yes, lets do that shall we?
EQ - Hands down the best, and most popular MMO in it's early years. If anything, SoE has took a very active role in making the game BETTER since they took the helm from Verant..Now, let me ask you this.....
When SWG was released, what was it closer to in terms of gameplay? EverQuest or Star Wars-Battlefront (w/ some RPG elements tacked on)? it was MUCH closer to EQ right? Yeah, that's b/c they took what they found worked in EQ, and then developed a game that followed pretty close along those same lines with some adjustments to fit the settings and universe. So why in the world would SoE break their own precedent, and in the middle of a games life make such drastic changes to make it completely unlike any game they had developed previously? Right, they wouldn't. And they didn't b/c the NGE was LA's idea.
EQ2 - Now, EQ2 had a pretty rough beginning, no secret there. The main reason I feel the game had it so rough early on was b/c EQ2's development started under some guy named Brad McQuaid and that shows by how closely early EQ2 mirrors what Vangaurd did. It wasn't until he left and had been gone for awhile that SoE scrapped the cruddy parts of EQ2 and were able to salvage the game from hell. Now, after EQ2 has been under Scott Hartsmans, and gasp, Smedely's watchful eyes that the game has become what it is today. And that's a pretty damned good game, but I'm sure you SoE haters wouldn't admit that b/c you're probably too busy hating SoE to have given it a shot.
Vanguard - Alright, I would LOVE to hear how it was SoE's fault that game got screwed up so bad. It's been well documented that the game tanked b/c of horrendous mis-management by Sigil (mainly one person in paticular, Mr. Brad McQuaid). I guess you're hating on SoE b/c of the firings of so many Sigil employees, well guess what? When an MMO goes from active pre-release development to post-release content developement and maintanance they don't need as many developers. Not only that, but it seems that Sigil had more employees then it needed anyway. Maybe it's the way they were fired? Well, that's no ones fault but Sigils management, they could've handled that situation better then taking the employees out in the lot and giving them the axe.
Go ahead, tear all that apart as I'm sure you guys want to.
I really love how, after so much proof to the contrary, some people here still insist on blaming SoE for the NGE, and even go so far as to blame Smedley personally. LOL
Lets look at some facts here...
There have been more then a few people (test-server players, friends of devs, devs, execs and other insiders from both SoE and LA) that have come out and said that the NGE was basically forced down SoEs throat.
The main reason these people said LucasArts dreamed up the NGE was b/c they had just released the best-selling Star Wars game in history, Battlefront, and they thought they could siphon some of Battlefronts success into SWG by making it more twitch-based and taking alot of the complexity out of the game to help it appeal to a wider audience.
It's no secret that LucasArts was never really happy w/ the subscription numbers of SWG, so after a bit of time they decided to take a more active role in the development of the game. This led to things like the CU and the NGE.
Also, LucasArts, as the License holder, had to approve EVERYTHING that went into the game to ensure it was up to snuff and represented the license well. This fact alone should tell everyone that regardless of what SoE develops, LA had the ultimate say in what went on in the games development.
I know blame must be placed somewhere, I just don't understand why you all choose on crucifying SoE. Oh, and to all the people that said stuff like "Look @ EQ, EQ2 and Vanguard" in a negative connotation and such other nonsense....yes, lets do that shall we?
EQ - Hands down the best, and most popular MMO in it's early years. If anything, SoE has took a very active role in making the game BETTER since they took the helm from Verant..Now, let me ask you this.....
When SWG was released, what was it closer to in terms of gameplay? EverQuest or Star Wars-Battlefront (w/ some RPG elements tacked on)? it was MUCH closer to EQ right? Yeah, that's b/c they took what they found worked in EQ, and then developed a game that followed pretty close along those same lines with some adjustments to fit the settings and universe. So why in the world would SoE break their own precedent, and in the middle of a games life make such drastic changes to make it completely unlike any game they had developed previously? Right, they wouldn't. And they didn't b/c the NGE was LA's idea.
EQ2 - Now, EQ2 had a pretty rough beginning, no secret there. The main reason I feel the game had it so rough early on was b/c EQ2's development started under some guy named Brad McQuaid and that shows by how closely early EQ2 mirrors what Vangaurd did. It wasn't until he left and had been gone for awhile that SoE scrapped the cruddy parts of EQ2 and were able to salvage the game from hell. Now, after EQ2 has been under Scott Hartsmans, and gasp, Smedely's watchful eyes that the game has become what it is today. And that's a pretty damned good game, but I'm sure you SoE haters wouldn't admit that b/c you're probably too busy hating SoE to have given it a shot.
Vanguard - Alright, I would LOVE to hear how it was SoE's fault that game got screwed up so bad. It's been well documented that the game tanked b/c of horrendous mis-management by Sigil (mainly one person in paticular, Mr. Brad McQuaid). I guess you're hating on SoE b/c of the firings of so many Sigil employees, well guess what? When an MMO goes from active pre-release development to post-release content developement and maintanance they don't need as many developers. Not only that, but it seems that Sigil had more employees then it needed anyway. Maybe it's the way they were fired? Well, that's no ones fault but Sigils management, they could've handled that situation better then taking the employees out in the lot and giving them the axe.
Go ahead, tear all that apart as I'm sure you guys want to.
I agree with you on that, EQ2 is a decent game, and much better IMHO than WoW or LOTRO because it has more to offer players. Repetitive? Yes like most MMOs it is repetitive. Will it remain the best alternative to SWG? Maybe, maybe not. No one will know till those games come out. As for Smed I seem to remember hearing that he made comments about how people would continue playing SWG no mater what they did to it because it's SW. I think there may be some animosity there for that comment, that and most people assume SOE could do "something” to address the NGE mess but chooses to do nothing but tell players "there will be no rollbacks, sorry".
I understand that most people here are rather reluctant to believe this post, but I'd like to play devil's advocate here for a moment and suggest a couple things that might indicate the possibility of some "truth" to this rumor. (there's a reason for the quotation marks here)
First, I'd like to say that I'm going to site a few references from other posts on this site without going back to search out there posts themselves; so if you want to call BS on me, I don't really have the exact references myself so that's fair and ultimately I'm kind of just quoting other rumors as well.
Anyhow, I'll just do this mostly in point for to keep things brief.
- LA has weighed in on the SWGemu stating that it's fan art, and thus not illegal, possibly provided that the players are in fact still paying their SOE subscription fees
- SOE has stated that the NGE, or at least the handling of it, might have been a mistake but reversion to pre-cu code isn't possible (I call BS on the whole "it's not possible to do pn the programming side of things" reason; I believe that it's simply unfeasable from a business point of view due to the cost both in development time and potentially lost subscriptions [keep in mind that 50-80k people out there would probably be pretty pissed off to see all of their NGE progress wiped out] with virtually no guarantee of a substantial rise on returning subscribers)
- apparently SOE has been actively discussing merging several of the lower population servers together; merging those populations would then leave SOE with a few unused servers that could potentially be retasked or sold off
Here's where I'm going to get into my speculation; keep in mind, this is speculation based on things I've picked up from other threads on these boards, so I'm willing to admit that this is just as likely to be crap as anything else.
Brining back pre-cu code is economically unfeasable for SOE at this point, but what if someone was already doing the "work" for them? And for free at that? The emu team has been working for a year on a product that I don't believe that they can reasonably hope to allow open access to, like so many of the people here are hoping for: a server is not a cheap piece of equipment and there is no way that a SWG emu can run with possibly 5 to 15k players on a few home PCs linked together to act as a server. But with several of the SOE servers becoming available, it's concievable that SOE might "offer" (read: "coerce into working with them under threat of legal action") the emu developers one of their servers to work as a dry run for exploring the economic feasability of bringing back a pre-cu code system. If the only way that a SWG emu is legal is for the players to be paying SOE subscriptions anyway, why not allow thier subscribers access to the emu version directly through them with a warning that this version would have minimal support and possibly very buggy (which I expect will be the case with the emu). From there, SOE could see if there was enough potential business out there to either openly offer "classic servers" or revamp the game yet again by reverting to a new version of the pre-cu code; and all of this could then be done at minimal cost to SOE.
Yeah, I know that the above paragraph is pretty unlikely, I'm just suggesting a senario under which I think that this might be possible. I personally don't see the pre-cu SWG returning in any form from SOE, but I just thought that I'd play devil's advocate if for no other reason than I felt like tossing some fuel on the fire of a juicy, if highly unlikely, rumor.
Well, I wasnt going to post in this thread even though I have read through it a few times but the emotions towards this game just wont leave my mind since.
First let me say no matter how much I would love for this to be true I have to stop myself now because I know how bad it would work on me if it didnt happen so until I see an official announcement its just BS. Yes, I remember all the rumors that some have pointed out that we didnt believe until they happened and seen it for ourselves but I just dont want to go through all of that again.
I waited over the years for this big change to occur because we all knew how shitty the game had become. I would be stupid and get a month subscription here or there just to see what had changed and each time I did all I could do was sit in my house looking at things of what once was. I would open up my friends list and guilds list and see no one online, fly around on my AV-21 to see all the desolate places and remember how it used to be so busy.
I went to all the major cities because hey, someone has to be in a med center or cantina and all I seen was emptiness. People who never played this game before CU never really understood why we miss the early days so much. Yes we all know the game was buggy, not unplayable buggy, just small bugs that irritated you every once in a while. Yes, we know the classes were unbalanced but you know what, we still loved to play the game. Even I had more then 1 account for this game and that is something I have never done with any MMO I have ever played, hell some had 4 accounts.
We loved the old game because we had FREEDOM and a COMMUNITY!! Not only in game but on the message boards as well, it was truly a family in that game and we all loved it. We didnt have a huge list of people on our ignore lists, instead we had a huge list of people on our friends list. I have to this date never had as many people on a friends list that werent even in my guild as I did back in the day. Even when you got your ass owned by someone there was always a mutual respect there that I have never seen in any other game, truly an experiance in gaming I will never forget!!
Just this month I logged in one last time, but.... this time I made sure it was for good. I did the hardest thing I have done in a very long time, I hit the delete button for my characters. This was the only way I could get myself to realise the game is dead and there is no reason for me to return, it was a very tough decision but one I knew I had to do to help release myself from the choke grip of Vader.
I just wanted to say to any vet out there that understands the feeling of what once was.. Thank You!! Thank you for the wonderful time and experiance I will never feel again in any MMO. It truly was a great time and one I will never forget.
Out of every 100 men, 10 should not be there, 80 are nothing but targets, 9 are the real fighters. Ah, but one, ONE of them is a warrior, and he will bring the others home. -Heraclitus 500BC
i remember reading the post some guy left talking about the future NGE, thinking, "no way in hell that will happen..no one in development with any logical reasoning would allow it". then it went live a couple days later.
so hopefully this is the same sort of thing. No one really believes it, but it might happen. To spend 1.5 million on it would be a big risk, but many of the pissed off players that left would definately come back in a flash to try it out; they've been deprived from pre-cu so long they couldn't resist it. So if it draws back any extra 50k suscribers, and it could bring more, that right there is 750k for a month, 2 months and they're even.
So now its just about the whole pride issue. Someone has to admit they fudged up and take a fall.
i remember reading the post some guy left talking about the future NGE, thinking, "no way in hell that will happen..no one in development with any logical reasoning would allow it". then it went live a couple days later. so hopefully this is the same sort of thing. No one really believes it, but it might happen. To spend 1.5 million on it would be a big risk, but many of the pissed off players that left would definately come back in a flash to try it out; they've been deprived from pre-cu so long they couldn't resist it. So if it draws back any extra 50k suscribers, and it could bring more, that right there is 750k for a month, 2 months and they're even. So now its just about the whole pride issue. Someone has to admit they fudged up and take a fall.
I agree with this. And it won't be the players, they ignored us and our helpful posts. They have deleted many of them so there is no way to fully show the extent of what was wrong.
I see them left with two options: either change it back to pre-cu and drop their pride for us. Or remain scarred in the eyes of many of us vets.
They don't have much time.. every day the emu gets closer.
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
so basically the rumor is there gonna rollback to pre cu?
That's pretty much the rumor, it's not so much a rollback as a new "enhancement" that looks a lot like how the game was around Pub 8. That's the general gist, but as you know, the details are pretty darn interesting. How would they deal with all the insta-Jeedai running around now? Or those who respeced to Jedi who were only a few boxes away from unlocking prior to the NGE? Take away their sabers and turn them all into brawlers, for example? Would only Elder Jedi get to keep their glowsticks? Or perhaps only pre pub 9 (Hologrind) Jedi?
This rumor is pretty general, and there are a lot of issues that would have to be addressed before it happened were it to be true.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
I really love how, after so much proof to the contrary, some people here still insist on blaming SoE for the NGE, and even go so far as to blame Smedley personally. LOL
Lets look at some facts here...
There have been more then a few people (test-server players, friends of devs, devs, execs and other insiders from both SoE and LA) that have come out and said that the NGE was basically forced down SoEs throat.
The main reason these people said LucasArts dreamed up the NGE was b/c they had just released the best-selling Star Wars game in history, Battlefront, and they thought they could siphon some of Battlefronts success into SWG by making it more twitch-based and taking alot of the complexity out of the game to help it appeal to a wider audience.
It's no secret that LucasArts was never really happy w/ the subscription numbers of SWG, so after a bit of time they decided to take a more active role in the development of the game. This led to things like the CU and the NGE.
Also, LucasArts, as the License holder, had to approve EVERYTHING that went into the game to ensure it was up to snuff and represented the license well. This fact alone should tell everyone that regardless of what SoE develops, LA had the ultimate say in what went on in the games development.
I know blame must be placed somewhere, I just don't understand why you all choose on crucifying SoE. Oh, and to all the people that said stuff like "Look @ EQ, EQ2 and Vanguard" in a negative connotation and such other nonsense....yes, lets do that shall we?
EQ - Hands down the best, and most popular MMO in it's early years. If anything, SoE has took a very active role in making the game BETTER since they took the helm from Verant..Now, let me ask you this.....
When SWG was released, what was it closer to in terms of gameplay? EverQuest or Star Wars-Battlefront (w/ some RPG elements tacked on)? it was MUCH closer to EQ right? Yeah, that's b/c they took what they found worked in EQ, and then developed a game that followed pretty close along those same lines with some adjustments to fit the settings and universe. So why in the world would SoE break their own precedent, and in the middle of a games life make such drastic changes to make it completely unlike any game they had developed previously? Right, they wouldn't. And they didn't b/c the NGE was LA's idea.
EQ2 - Now, EQ2 had a pretty rough beginning, no secret there. The main reason I feel the game had it so rough early on was b/c EQ2's development started under some guy named Brad McQuaid and that shows by how closely early EQ2 mirrors what Vangaurd did. It wasn't until he left and had been gone for awhile that SoE scrapped the cruddy parts of EQ2 and were able to salvage the game from hell. Now, after EQ2 has been under Scott Hartsmans, and gasp, Smedely's watchful eyes that the game has become what it is today. And that's a pretty damned good game, but I'm sure you SoE haters wouldn't admit that b/c you're probably too busy hating SoE to have given it a shot.
Vanguard - Alright, I would LOVE to hear how it was SoE's fault that game got screwed up so bad. It's been well documented that the game tanked b/c of horrendous mis-management by Sigil (mainly one person in paticular, Mr. Brad McQuaid). I guess you're hating on SoE b/c of the firings of so many Sigil employees, well guess what? When an MMO goes from active pre-release development to post-release content developement and maintanance they don't need as many developers. Not only that, but it seems that Sigil had more employees then it needed anyway. Maybe it's the way they were fired? Well, that's no ones fault but Sigils management, they could've handled that situation better then taking the employees out in the lot and giving them the axe.
Go ahead, tear all that apart as I'm sure you guys want to.
Wrong! Even the lead dev from SWG admitted on his blog that the NGE was his idea from the start, but it was taken down a few days after. How he pitched the idea to the team and how FUN they thought it was and kept telling themselves, "we shouldn't do it, but we shouldn't, but its so fun, but we shouldn't". You can most likely still google it and find the quotes somewhere.
Anyhow I will play your game.
EQ was successful because it had no competition for years. It was a very fun game, but it really didn't start going downhill until after velious. Note: the last expansion Brad worked on. As far as SOE improving the game after Brad left, well I don't recall any player run boycotts during brads stint that resulted in SOE suspending the next expansion to fly 50+ high profile gamers/fan sites to California for the "Guild Summit" and oozing apologies to the player base about how they will change and start to listen to the player now. Nope, that all happened years after Brad left again fully on SOEs watch (may 2004), but some people just must make excuses for this company and lay blame elsewhere.
EQ2 sucked hard at launch for a variety of concept, performance and various other reasons.
Brad McQuaid left Sony in October 2001.
Everquest II release date, November 2004.
So either Brad McQuaid was so talented that he was ruining the launch of TWO games, each made by different companies, at the same time no less.... OR maybe SOE just really is solely to blame for the state of EQ2 at launch. Do you really want people to believe that it took 3 years of development time and 2+ years of post launch production to undo what little time Brad might have spent on EQ2? Stop trying to rewrite history and apologize for Sony.
SWG launch: A rushed, buggy and unfinished piece of crap (code wise). It showed flashes of CONCEPT brilliance, but nothing worked, blah blah. It needed more time to get finished.
SWG CU: A rushed, buggy and unfinished piece of crap (see a trend?) Again needing more time to get finished.
SWG NGE: A rushed, buggy and unfinished piece of crap. (Wow, same exact thing) Again needing more time to get finished.
So either Lucas arts is responsible for all three bad releases of SWG and Sony actually did nothing at all on the game..... -OR- the pattern fits EVERYTHING Sony has released over the past 5 years. Maybe you can rewrite history to blame Brad McQuad for the state of star wars also? Personally I don't excuse either company and hold them both accountable, but in the end SOE made the actual game. It isn't like the team was made up of lucas arts people and just carried the SOE brand name.
Ask yourself this question. Why do people credit bioware with the success of knights of the old republic and NOT lucas arts.... The same exact answer applies here. In the end you blame Brad McQuaid (twice), Lucas Arts and every but SOE for the state of Sony games. When oh when can the company that actually makes the game be held responsible for what they make?
Wrong! Even the lead dev from SWG admitted on his blog that the NGE was his idea from the start, but it was taken down a few days after. How he pitched the idea to the team and how FUN they thought it was and kept telling themselves, "we shouldn't do it, but we shouldn't, but its so fun, but we shouldn't". You can most likely still google it and find the quotes somewhere.
The "lead dev" from SWG, Jeff Freeman, is the guy you're talking about, and he's responsible for the combat system of the NGE, which, I will grant you, was pretty much bantha poodoo.
But he's not responsible for making Jedi a starting profession, or for compressing all the professions down to the "iconic" nine, nor is he responsible for eviscerating the economy by making loot king ala WoW.
I'm not even sure if he's responsible for the true failure of the CU, which was the accursed overt level system, which destroyed the virtual reality of SWG for the sake of meeting a marketing deadline set by the Lucas folks (CU must be out by the time Ep III was in theaters)
So there's plenty of blame to go around, and a lot of it lies with LA, not SOE.
Oh, and BTW, who gets the blame for KOTOR II? Not Obsidian, but LA, for insisting it come out in time to be placed under Christmas Trees, whether the game was ready or not.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Thanks for the Freeman reference, I had lost that link.
That is why I specifically said that I blame both companies. People want to blame one company and somehow relieve the other of any wrong doing. That just isn't the case. Lucas arts can be blamed for it's share which is most likely time tables or demands to increase subscriptions, but SOE actually made the game. It was their design, their programmers, their artists, everything.
As for KOTORII, both, but I put more on obisidian. It isn't like they had no idea what working with LucasArts was like after Bioware refused to work with them for the sequel. Even battlefront got rushed to release with the DVD set. Eyes wide shut is no excuse.
I still go back to the concept that if SOE hadn't completely bungled the nuts and bolts of the game that LucasArts wouldn't have had to step in with any game-changing developments.
Was it LucasArts that decided to nerf knockdowns, and then bungled the implementation so that knockdowns were essentially useless for months until SOE was convinced to take another pass through it? Was it SOE that buffed defense mods when they weren't even functional, so that when they did become functional players could build unhittable god-mode templates? Even the lighter side of things - remember the bug on the first day of vehicles going live that left the model in the game world when the vehicle was returned to the datapad? Were those kinds of coding blunders SOE's fault or LucasArts?
Pre-CU SWG never had a real chance to get balanced because SOE could never get a handle on the bugs. Every publish fixed some but introduced at least as many. That's why I blame SOE for the current state of SWG. LucasArts could've done everything up to putting the code for the NGE on the servers themselves, and I still fault SOE.
The point about EQ being popular because it was the only game in town is spot-on. Even at EQ's peak, posts about how many people were going to leave to try the next big MMORPG (including SWG) actually went somewhere because people were desperate for an alternative. Most WoW gamers don't even realize the next big MMORPG is coming out because they're happy where they are. It's no surprise that the worst part of WoW (the post level cap raidfest) is the work of former EQ powergamers.
When you say go back to publish 8, does that mean we can play an artisan, merchant, dancer like we use to be able to? Will they allow us to respec back as we once were pre-NGE? Will the game even be anywhere near as fun as it was pre-NGE even if they do take it back? They screwed up so much with the NGE how can they possibly hope to recreate the sandbox game play that was there before the NGE? It seems like it would be to hard a task. Wouldn't it be better if they just started from scratch and make a whole new SWG and maybe take it to a whole different time line to get away from the mess that is SWG right now?
but would they get us back if we would go then would they do it again...
I'll say it isn't so, but I wish it would be. All those times they said "pre-cu isn't coming back" man this would be awesome. But then again would we have anything to do in the game? Would we get any of the latest content additions eventually? I mean, it would be almost a dry game till they added some stuff in that they've added in since publish 8.
I really love how, after so much proof to the contrary, some people here still insist on blaming SoE for the NGE, and even go so far as to blame Smedley personally. LOL
Lets look at some facts here...
There have been more then a few people (test-server players, friends of devs, devs, execs and other insiders from both SoE and LA) that have come out and said that the NGE was basically forced down SoEs throat.
The main reason these people said LucasArts dreamed up the NGE was b/c they had just released the best-selling Star Wars game in history, Battlefront, and they thought they could siphon some of Battlefronts success into SWG by making it more twitch-based and taking alot of the complexity out of the game to help it appeal to a wider audience.
It's no secret that LucasArts was never really happy w/ the subscription numbers of SWG, so after a bit of time they decided to take a more active role in the development of the game. This led to things like the CU and the NGE.
Also, LucasArts, as the License holder, had to approve EVERYTHING that went into the game to ensure it was up to snuff and represented the license well. This fact alone should tell everyone that regardless of what SoE develops, LA had the ultimate say in what went on in the games development.
I know blame must be placed somewhere, I just don't understand why you all choose on crucifying SoE. Oh, and to all the people that said stuff like "Look @ EQ, EQ2 and Vanguard" in a negative connotation and such other nonsense....yes, lets do that shall we?
EQ - Hands down the best, and most popular MMO in it's early years. If anything, SoE has took a very active role in making the game BETTER since they took the helm from Verant..Now, let me ask you this.....
When SWG was released, what was it closer to in terms of gameplay? EverQuest or Star Wars-Battlefront (w/ some RPG elements tacked on)? it was MUCH closer to EQ right? Yeah, that's b/c they took what they found worked in EQ, and then developed a game that followed pretty close along those same lines with some adjustments to fit the settings and universe. So why in the world would SoE break their own precedent, and in the middle of a games life make such drastic changes to make it completely unlike any game they had developed previously? Right, they wouldn't. And they didn't b/c the NGE was LA's idea.
EQ2 - Now, EQ2 had a pretty rough beginning, no secret there. The main reason I feel the game had it so rough early on was b/c EQ2's development started under some guy named Brad McQuaid and that shows by how closely early EQ2 mirrors what Vangaurd did. It wasn't until he left and had been gone for awhile that SoE scrapped the cruddy parts of EQ2 and were able to salvage the game from hell. Now, after EQ2 has been under Scott Hartsmans, and gasp, Smedely's watchful eyes that the game has become what it is today. And that's a pretty damned good game, but I'm sure you SoE haters wouldn't admit that b/c you're probably too busy hating SoE to have given it a shot.
Vanguard - Alright, I would LOVE to hear how it was SoE's fault that game got screwed up so bad. It's been well documented that the game tanked b/c of horrendous mis-management by Sigil (mainly one person in paticular, Mr. Brad McQuaid). I guess you're hating on SoE b/c of the firings of so many Sigil employees, well guess what? When an MMO goes from active pre-release development to post-release content developement and maintanance they don't need as many developers. Not only that, but it seems that Sigil had more employees then it needed anyway. Maybe it's the way they were fired? Well, that's no ones fault but Sigils management, they could've handled that situation better then taking the employees out in the lot and giving them the axe.
Go ahead, tear all that apart as I'm sure you guys want to.
I don't think LA can be given absolution here, but SOE has already admitted the NGE was their brainchild. However, even if what you say is right, SOE still deserves to be crucified.
Why?
Because SOE are veterans in the MMORPG community. They know how to make games. They know how the market reacts. They should've told Lucasarts that making such sweeping changes was going to be obvious suicide. They should've told LA that the bait and switch campaign of the Trials of Obi Wan was going to backfire. If anything, under your model, SOE should've known better. The fact they went along with it (as if they were prisoners of the mighty George Lucas, bending to his will) makes them more guilty.
However, the reason people place blame on SOE is because they were the ones who were publicly going to war against their customers. They were the ones insulting them, thumbing their noses at people, and delivering most of the animus. People not surprisngly took offense to this.
It also fits in with their previous CU, where they failed to look ahead, did a radical redesign of the game, and problems galore were the result. This was predicted by those unhappy with the CU, that soon enough, they would do the same again, wiping out what everyone had earned.
In short, both are at fault. However, SOE should know better, they are not rookies in the MMO world like Lucasarts is. While regrettable, they can be given more forgivness due to ignorance.
$oe saw the almighty $ sign thats the only reason they did it..
its like the new bm looks a lot like the hunter in wow same thing old story...
let em burn dont shoot em to quote saving private ryan..
Originally posted by iceman00
Originally posted by teddyboy420
I really love how, after so much proof to the contrary, some people here still insist on blaming SoE for the NGE, and even go so far as to blame Smedley personally. LOL
Lets look at some facts here...
There have been more then a few people (test-server players, friends of devs, devs, execs and other insiders from both SoE and LA) that have come out and said that the NGE was basically forced down SoEs throat.
The main reason these people said LucasArts dreamed up the NGE was b/c they had just released the best-selling Star Wars game in history, Battlefront, and they thought they could siphon some of Battlefronts success into SWG by making it more twitch-based and taking alot of the complexity out of the game to help it appeal to a wider audience.
It's no secret that LucasArts was never really happy w/ the subscription numbers of SWG, so after a bit of time they decided to take a more active role in the development of the game. This led to things like the CU and the NGE.
Also, LucasArts, as the License holder, had to approve EVERYTHING that went into the game to ensure it was up to snuff and represented the license well. This fact alone should tell everyone that regardless of what SoE develops, LA had the ultimate say in what went on in the games development.
I know blame must be placed somewhere, I just don't understand why you all choose on crucifying SoE. Oh, and to all the people that said stuff like "Look @ EQ, EQ2 and Vanguard" in a negative connotation and such other nonsense....yes, lets do that shall we?
EQ - Hands down the best, and most popular MMO in it's early years. If anything, SoE has took a very active role in making the game BETTER since they took the helm from Verant..Now, let me ask you this.....
When SWG was released, what was it closer to in terms of gameplay? EverQuest or Star Wars-Battlefront (w/ some RPG elements tacked on)? it was MUCH closer to EQ right? Yeah, that's b/c they took what they found worked in EQ, and then developed a game that followed pretty close along those same lines with some adjustments to fit the settings and universe. So why in the world would SoE break their own precedent, and in the middle of a games life make such drastic changes to make it completely unlike any game they had developed previously? Right, they wouldn't. And they didn't b/c the NGE was LA's idea.
EQ2 - Now, EQ2 had a pretty rough beginning, no secret there. The main reason I feel the game had it so rough early on was b/c EQ2's development started under some guy named Brad McQuaid and that shows by how closely early EQ2 mirrors what Vangaurd did. It wasn't until he left and had been gone for awhile that SoE scrapped the cruddy parts of EQ2 and were able to salvage the game from hell. Now, after EQ2 has been under Scott Hartsmans, and gasp, Smedely's watchful eyes that the game has become what it is today. And that's a pretty damned good game, but I'm sure you SoE haters wouldn't admit that b/c you're probably too busy hating SoE to have given it a shot.
Vanguard - Alright, I would LOVE to hear how it was SoE's fault that game got screwed up so bad. It's been well documented that the game tanked b/c of horrendous mis-management by Sigil (mainly one person in paticular, Mr. Brad McQuaid). I guess you're hating on SoE b/c of the firings of so many Sigil employees, well guess what? When an MMO goes from active pre-release development to post-release content developement and maintanance they don't need as many developers. Not only that, but it seems that Sigil had more employees then it needed anyway. Maybe it's the way they were fired? Well, that's no ones fault but Sigils management, they could've handled that situation better then taking the employees out in the lot and giving them the axe.
Go ahead, tear all that apart as I'm sure you guys want to.
I don't think LA can be given absolution here, but SOE has already admitted the NGE was their brainchild. However, even if what you say is right, SOE still deserves to be crucified.
Why?
Because SOE are veterans in the MMORPG community. They know how to make games. They know how the market reacts. They should've told Lucasarts that making such sweeping changes was going to be obvious suicide. They should've told LA that the bait and switch campaign of the Trials of Obi Wan was going to backfire. If anything, under your model, SOE should've known better. The fact they went along with it (as if they were prisoners of the mighty George Lucas, bending to his will) makes them more guilty.
However, the reason people place blame on SOE is because they were the ones who were publicly going to war against their customers. They were the ones insulting them, thumbing their noses at people, and delivering most of the animus. People not surprisngly took offense to this.
It also fits in with their previous CU, where they failed to look ahead, did a radical redesign of the game, and problems galore were the result. This was predicted by those unhappy with the CU, that soon enough, they would do the same again, wiping out what everyone had earned.
In short, both are at fault. However, SOE should know better, they are not rookies in the MMO world like Lucasarts is. While regrettable, they can be given more forgivness due to ignorance.
I'll happily eat my own hat if this is true. (luckily its a chocolate hat)
But heard many rumours last year that came to nothing and can't really see this happening however much I wish it was true.
Even if they slowly reimplemented pre-cu stuff they would still need to change the way combat works from a bad fps style to the original, give us back ALL our proffesions and change the UI back to the way it was.
Then take jedi from all the players who are not Elders, $OE suck but I can't see them doing that to current players AGAIN and I personally would not want to see it happen to them either. But then again I wouldn't want to play on servers with NGE click and play jedis.
Only way this is possible is classic servers for sure.
Comments
PRE CU JEDI TEMPLATES:
JEDI PADAWAN
DARK JEDI KNIGHT
DARK JEDI MASTER
JEDI KNIGHT
JEDI MASTER
Lets look at some facts here...
There have been more then a few people (test-server players, friends of devs, devs, execs and other insiders from both SoE and LA) that have come out and said that the NGE was basically forced down SoEs throat.
The main reason these people said LucasArts dreamed up the NGE was b/c they had just released the best-selling Star Wars game in history, Battlefront, and they thought they could siphon some of Battlefronts success into SWG by making it more twitch-based and taking alot of the complexity out of the game to help it appeal to a wider audience.
It's no secret that LucasArts was never really happy w/ the subscription numbers of SWG, so after a bit of time they decided to take a more active role in the development of the game. This led to things like the CU and the NGE.
Also, LucasArts, as the License holder, had to approve EVERYTHING that went into the game to ensure it was up to snuff and represented the license well. This fact alone should tell everyone that regardless of what SoE develops, LA had the ultimate say in what went on in the games development.
I know blame must be placed somewhere, I just don't understand why you all choose on crucifying SoE. Oh, and to all the people that said stuff like "Look @ EQ, EQ2 and Vanguard" in a negative connotation and such other nonsense....yes, lets do that shall we?
EQ - Hands down the best, and most popular MMO in it's early years. If anything, SoE has took a very active role in making the game BETTER since they took the helm from Verant..Now, let me ask you this.....
When SWG was released, what was it closer to in terms of gameplay? EverQuest or Star Wars-Battlefront (w/ some RPG elements tacked on)? it was MUCH closer to EQ right? Yeah, that's b/c they took what they found worked in EQ, and then developed a game that followed pretty close along those same lines with some adjustments to fit the settings and universe. So why in the world would SoE break their own precedent, and in the middle of a games life make such drastic changes to make it completely unlike any game they had developed previously? Right, they wouldn't. And they didn't b/c the NGE was LA's idea.
EQ2 - Now, EQ2 had a pretty rough beginning, no secret there. The main reason I feel the game had it so rough early on was b/c EQ2's development started under some guy named Brad McQuaid and that shows by how closely early EQ2 mirrors what Vangaurd did. It wasn't until he left and had been gone for awhile that SoE scrapped the cruddy parts of EQ2 and were able to salvage the game from hell. Now, after EQ2 has been under Scott Hartsmans, and gasp, Smedely's watchful eyes that the game has become what it is today. And that's a pretty damned good game, but I'm sure you SoE haters wouldn't admit that b/c you're probably too busy hating SoE to have given it a shot.
Vanguard - Alright, I would LOVE to hear how it was SoE's fault that game got screwed up so bad. It's been well documented that the game tanked b/c of horrendous mis-management by Sigil (mainly one person in paticular, Mr. Brad McQuaid). I guess you're hating on SoE b/c of the firings of so many Sigil employees, well guess what? When an MMO goes from active pre-release development to post-release content developement and maintanance they don't need as many developers. Not only that, but it seems that Sigil had more employees then it needed anyway. Maybe it's the way they were fired? Well, that's no ones fault but Sigils management, they could've handled that situation better then taking the employees out in the lot and giving them the axe.
Go ahead, tear all that apart as I'm sure you guys want to.
Amen!
Quote For Truth!
I agree with you on that, EQ2 is a decent game, and much better IMHO than WoW or LOTRO because it has more to offer players. Repetitive? Yes like most MMOs it is repetitive. Will it remain the best alternative to SWG? Maybe, maybe not. No one will know till those games come out. As for Smed I seem to remember hearing that he made comments about how people would continue playing SWG no mater what they did to it because it's SW. I think there may be some animosity there for that comment, that and most people assume SOE could do "something” to address the NGE mess but chooses to do nothing but tell players "there will be no rollbacks, sorry".
I understand that most people here are rather reluctant to believe this post, but I'd like to play devil's advocate here for a moment and suggest a couple things that might indicate the possibility of some "truth" to this rumor. (there's a reason for the quotation marks here)
First, I'd like to say that I'm going to site a few references from other posts on this site without going back to search out there posts themselves; so if you want to call BS on me, I don't really have the exact references myself so that's fair and ultimately I'm kind of just quoting other rumors as well.
Anyhow, I'll just do this mostly in point for to keep things brief.
- LA has weighed in on the SWGemu stating that it's fan art, and thus not illegal, possibly provided that the players are in fact still paying their SOE subscription fees
- SOE has stated that the NGE, or at least the handling of it, might have been a mistake but reversion to pre-cu code isn't possible (I call BS on the whole "it's not possible to do pn the programming side of things" reason; I believe that it's simply unfeasable from a business point of view due to the cost both in development time and potentially lost subscriptions [keep in mind that 50-80k people out there would probably be pretty pissed off to see all of their NGE progress wiped out] with virtually no guarantee of a substantial rise on returning subscribers)
- apparently SOE has been actively discussing merging several of the lower population servers together; merging those populations would then leave SOE with a few unused servers that could potentially be retasked or sold off
Here's where I'm going to get into my speculation; keep in mind, this is speculation based on things I've picked up from other threads on these boards, so I'm willing to admit that this is just as likely to be crap as anything else.
Brining back pre-cu code is economically unfeasable for SOE at this point, but what if someone was already doing the "work" for them? And for free at that? The emu team has been working for a year on a product that I don't believe that they can reasonably hope to allow open access to, like so many of the people here are hoping for: a server is not a cheap piece of equipment and there is no way that a SWG emu can run with possibly 5 to 15k players on a few home PCs linked together to act as a server. But with several of the SOE servers becoming available, it's concievable that SOE might "offer" (read: "coerce into working with them under threat of legal action") the emu developers one of their servers to work as a dry run for exploring the economic feasability of bringing back a pre-cu code system. If the only way that a SWG emu is legal is for the players to be paying SOE subscriptions anyway, why not allow thier subscribers access to the emu version directly through them with a warning that this version would have minimal support and possibly very buggy (which I expect will be the case with the emu). From there, SOE could see if there was enough potential business out there to either openly offer "classic servers" or revamp the game yet again by reverting to a new version of the pre-cu code; and all of this could then be done at minimal cost to SOE.
Yeah, I know that the above paragraph is pretty unlikely, I'm just suggesting a senario under which I think that this might be possible. I personally don't see the pre-cu SWG returning in any form from SOE, but I just thought that I'd play devil's advocate if for no other reason than I felt like tossing some fuel on the fire of a juicy, if highly unlikely, rumor.
Those pics made me cry a bit, good job. Good times.
-- xpaladin
[MMOz]
AC1/2, AO, DAoC, EQ1/2, SoR, SWG, UO, WAR, WoW
Well, I wasnt going to post in this thread even though I have read through it a few times but the emotions towards this game just wont leave my mind since.
First let me say no matter how much I would love for this to be true I have to stop myself now because I know how bad it would work on me if it didnt happen so until I see an official announcement its just BS. Yes, I remember all the rumors that some have pointed out that we didnt believe until they happened and seen it for ourselves but I just dont want to go through all of that again.
I waited over the years for this big change to occur because we all knew how shitty the game had become. I would be stupid and get a month subscription here or there just to see what had changed and each time I did all I could do was sit in my house looking at things of what once was. I would open up my friends list and guilds list and see no one online, fly around on my AV-21 to see all the desolate places and remember how it used to be so busy.
I went to all the major cities because hey, someone has to be in a med center or cantina and all I seen was emptiness. People who never played this game before CU never really understood why we miss the early days so much. Yes we all know the game was buggy, not unplayable buggy, just small bugs that irritated you every once in a while. Yes, we know the classes were unbalanced but you know what, we still loved to play the game. Even I had more then 1 account for this game and that is something I have never done with any MMO I have ever played, hell some had 4 accounts.
We loved the old game because we had FREEDOM and a COMMUNITY!! Not only in game but on the message boards as well, it was truly a family in that game and we all loved it. We didnt have a huge list of people on our ignore lists, instead we had a huge list of people on our friends list. I have to this date never had as many people on a friends list that werent even in my guild as I did back in the day. Even when you got your ass owned by someone there was always a mutual respect there that I have never seen in any other game, truly an experiance in gaming I will never forget!!
Just this month I logged in one last time, but.... this time I made sure it was for good. I did the hardest thing I have done in a very long time, I hit the delete button for my characters. This was the only way I could get myself to realise the game is dead and there is no reason for me to return, it was a very tough decision but one I knew I had to do to help release myself from the choke grip of Vader.
I just wanted to say to any vet out there that understands the feeling of what once was.. Thank You!! Thank you for the wonderful time and experiance I will never feel again in any MMO. It truly was a great time and one I will never forget.
Out of every 100 men, 10 should not be there,
80 are nothing but targets, 9 are the real fighters.
Ah, but one, ONE of them is a warrior,
and he will bring the others home.
-Heraclitus 500BC
i remember reading the post some guy left talking about the future NGE, thinking, "no way in hell that will happen..no one in development with any logical reasoning would allow it". then it went live a couple days later.
so hopefully this is the same sort of thing. No one really believes it, but it might happen. To spend 1.5 million on it would be a big risk, but many of the pissed off players that left would definately come back in a flash to try it out; they've been deprived from pre-cu so long they couldn't resist it. So if it draws back any extra 50k suscribers, and it could bring more, that right there is 750k for a month, 2 months and they're even.
So now its just about the whole pride issue. Someone has to admit they fudged up and take a fall.
I see them left with two options: either change it back to pre-cu and drop their pride for us. Or remain scarred in the eyes of many of us vets.
They don't have much time.. every day the emu gets closer.
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
That's pretty much the rumor, it's not so much a rollback as a new "enhancement" that looks a lot like how the game was around Pub 8. That's the general gist, but as you know, the details are pretty darn interesting. How would they deal with all the insta-Jeedai running around now? Or those who respeced to Jedi who were only a few boxes away from unlocking prior to the NGE? Take away their sabers and turn them all into brawlers, for example? Would only Elder Jedi get to keep their glowsticks? Or perhaps only pre pub 9 (Hologrind) Jedi?
This rumor is pretty general, and there are a lot of issues that would have to be addressed before it happened were it to be true.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
Anyhow I will play your game.
EQ was successful because it had no competition for years. It was a very fun game, but it really didn't start going downhill until after velious. Note: the last expansion Brad worked on. As far as SOE improving the game after Brad left, well I don't recall any player run boycotts during brads stint that resulted in SOE suspending the next expansion to fly 50+ high profile gamers/fan sites to California for the "Guild Summit" and oozing apologies to the player base about how they will change and start to listen to the player now. Nope, that all happened years after Brad left again fully on SOEs watch (may 2004), but some people just must make excuses for this company and lay blame elsewhere.
Some source reading for you:
http://www.gucomics.com/comic/?cdate=20040526
http://www.gucomics.com/comic/?cdate=20040607
EQ2 sucked hard at launch for a variety of concept, performance and various other reasons.
Brad McQuaid left Sony in October 2001.
Everquest II release date, November 2004.
So either Brad McQuaid was so talented that he was ruining the launch of TWO games, each made by different companies, at the same time no less.... OR maybe SOE just really is solely to blame for the state of EQ2 at launch. Do you really want people to believe that it took 3 years of development time and 2+ years of post launch production to undo what little time Brad might have spent on EQ2? Stop trying to rewrite history and apologize for Sony.
SWG launch: A rushed, buggy and unfinished piece of crap (code wise). It showed flashes of CONCEPT brilliance, but nothing worked, blah blah. It needed more time to get finished.
SWG CU: A rushed, buggy and unfinished piece of crap (see a trend?) Again needing more time to get finished.
SWG NGE: A rushed, buggy and unfinished piece of crap. (Wow, same exact thing) Again needing more time to get finished.
So either Lucas arts is responsible for all three bad releases of SWG and Sony actually did nothing at all on the game..... -OR- the pattern fits EVERYTHING Sony has released over the past 5 years. Maybe you can rewrite history to blame Brad McQuad for the state of star wars also? Personally I don't excuse either company and hold them both accountable, but in the end SOE made the actual game. It isn't like the team was made up of lucas arts people and just carried the SOE brand name.
Ask yourself this question. Why do people credit bioware with the success of knights of the old republic and NOT lucas arts.... The same exact answer applies here. In the end you blame Brad McQuaid (twice), Lucas Arts and every but SOE for the state of Sony games. When oh when can the company that actually makes the game be held responsible for what they make?
The "lead dev" from SWG, Jeff Freeman, is the guy you're talking about, and he's responsible for the combat system of the NGE, which, I will grant you, was pretty much bantha poodoo.
But he's not responsible for making Jedi a starting profession, or for compressing all the professions down to the "iconic" nine, nor is he responsible for eviscerating the economy by making loot king ala WoW.
I'm not even sure if he's responsible for the true failure of the CU, which was the accursed overt level system, which destroyed the virtual reality of SWG for the sake of meeting a marketing deadline set by the Lucas folks (CU must be out by the time Ep III was in theaters)
So there's plenty of blame to go around, and a lot of it lies with LA, not SOE.
Oh, and BTW, who gets the blame for KOTOR II? Not Obsidian, but LA, for insisting it come out in time to be placed under Christmas Trees, whether the game was ready or not.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
That is why I specifically said that I blame both companies. People want to blame one company and somehow relieve the other of any wrong doing. That just isn't the case. Lucas arts can be blamed for it's share which is most likely time tables or demands to increase subscriptions, but SOE actually made the game. It was their design, their programmers, their artists, everything.
As for KOTORII, both, but I put more on obisidian. It isn't like they had no idea what working with LucasArts was like after Bioware refused to work with them for the sequel. Even battlefront got rushed to release with the DVD set. Eyes wide shut is no excuse.
I still go back to the concept that if SOE hadn't completely bungled the nuts and bolts of the game that LucasArts wouldn't have had to step in with any game-changing developments.
Was it LucasArts that decided to nerf knockdowns, and then bungled the implementation so that knockdowns were essentially useless for months until SOE was convinced to take another pass through it? Was it SOE that buffed defense mods when they weren't even functional, so that when they did become functional players could build unhittable god-mode templates? Even the lighter side of things - remember the bug on the first day of vehicles going live that left the model in the game world when the vehicle was returned to the datapad? Were those kinds of coding blunders SOE's fault or LucasArts?
Pre-CU SWG never had a real chance to get balanced because SOE could never get a handle on the bugs. Every publish fixed some but introduced at least as many. That's why I blame SOE for the current state of SWG. LucasArts could've done everything up to putting the code for the NGE on the servers themselves, and I still fault SOE.
The point about EQ being popular because it was the only game in town is spot-on. Even at EQ's peak, posts about how many people were going to leave to try the next big MMORPG (including SWG) actually went somewhere because people were desperate for an alternative. Most WoW gamers don't even realize the next big MMORPG is coming out because they're happy where they are. It's no surprise that the worst part of WoW (the post level cap raidfest) is the work of former EQ powergamers.
OMG say it isnt so....
Its about time if it is....
but would they get us back if we would go then would they do it again...
I'll say it isn't so, but I wish it would be.
All those times they said "pre-cu isn't coming back" man this would be awesome. But then again would we have anything to do in the game? Would we get any of the latest content additions eventually? I mean, it would be almost a dry game till they added some stuff in that they've added in since publish 8.
I don't think LA can be given absolution here, but SOE has already admitted the NGE was their brainchild. However, even if what you say is right, SOE still deserves to be crucified.
Why?
Because SOE are veterans in the MMORPG community. They know how to make games. They know how the market reacts. They should've told Lucasarts that making such sweeping changes was going to be obvious suicide. They should've told LA that the bait and switch campaign of the Trials of Obi Wan was going to backfire. If anything, under your model, SOE should've known better. The fact they went along with it (as if they were prisoners of the mighty George Lucas, bending to his will) makes them more guilty.
However, the reason people place blame on SOE is because they were the ones who were publicly going to war against their customers. They were the ones insulting them, thumbing their noses at people, and delivering most of the animus. People not surprisngly took offense to this.
It also fits in with their previous CU, where they failed to look ahead, did a radical redesign of the game, and problems galore were the result. This was predicted by those unhappy with the CU, that soon enough, they would do the same again, wiping out what everyone had earned.
In short, both are at fault. However, SOE should know better, they are not rookies in the MMO world like Lucasarts is. While regrettable, they can be given more forgivness due to ignorance.
I don't think LA can be given absolution here, but SOE has already admitted the NGE was their brainchild. However, even if what you say is right, SOE still deserves to be crucified.
Why?
Because SOE are veterans in the MMORPG community. They know how to make games. They know how the market reacts. They should've told Lucasarts that making such sweeping changes was going to be obvious suicide. They should've told LA that the bait and switch campaign of the Trials of Obi Wan was going to backfire. If anything, under your model, SOE should've known better. The fact they went along with it (as if they were prisoners of the mighty George Lucas, bending to his will) makes them more guilty.
However, the reason people place blame on SOE is because they were the ones who were publicly going to war against their customers. They were the ones insulting them, thumbing their noses at people, and delivering most of the animus. People not surprisngly took offense to this.
It also fits in with their previous CU, where they failed to look ahead, did a radical redesign of the game, and problems galore were the result. This was predicted by those unhappy with the CU, that soon enough, they would do the same again, wiping out what everyone had earned.
In short, both are at fault. However, SOE should know better, they are not rookies in the MMO world like Lucasarts is. While regrettable, they can be given more forgivness due to ignorance.
I'll happily eat my own hat if this is true. (luckily its a chocolate hat)
But heard many rumours last year that came to nothing and can't really see this happening however much I wish it was true.
Even if they slowly reimplemented pre-cu stuff they would still need to change the way combat works from a bad fps style to the original, give us back ALL our proffesions and change the UI back to the way it was.
Then take jedi from all the players who are not Elders, $OE suck but I can't see them doing that to current players AGAIN and I personally would not want to see it happen to them either. But then again I wouldn't want to play on servers with NGE click and play jedis.
Only way this is possible is classic servers for sure.