This all comes down to the statement "No, non raiding end game players are not second class citizens in Age of Conan"
Someone needs to tattoo that on Neanderthal's and Pantastic's ass
Nah, just Pantastic, at least Neanderthal hasn't been deliberately obtuse and hostile about the situation, besides, they wouldn't see it there, perhaps on the back of their hands?
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. Hemingway
This all comes down to the statement "No, non raiding end game players are not second class citizens in Age of Conan"
Someone needs to tattoo that on Neanderthal's and Pantastic's ass
Nah, just Pantastic, at least Neanderthal hasn't been deliberately obtuse and hostile about the situation, besides, they wouldn't see it there, perhaps on the back of their hands?
The needle would get tangled up in all the hair on my ass anyway.
Six months to a year after release I really want to talk to you guys about this again (assuming I'm still coming to these forums by then). By the time the game is a year old we will know for sure how this all turned out. If my assumptions were wrong I'll admit I was wrong.
This all comes down to the statement "No, non raiding end game players are not second class citizens in Age of Conan"
Someone needs to tattoo that on Neanderthal's and Pantastic's ass
Nah, just Pantastic, at least Neanderthal hasn't been deliberately obtuse and hostile about the situation, besides, they wouldn't see it there, perhaps on the back of their hands?
The needle would get tangled up in all the hair on my ass anyway.
Six months to a year after release I really want to talk to you guys about this again (assuming I'm still coming to these forums by then). By the time the game is a year old we will know for sure how this all turned out. If my assumptions were wrong I'll admit I was wrong.
We'll see.
I'd say I hope you get in for the stress test but that wouldn't be long enough to really test the game thoroughly... I am still mystified why you keep posting in here if you have NO intention of playing...
EDIT: let me rephrase, I don't know HOW you post they WAY YOU DO... its one thing to be a disinterest or sightly curious observer, but to be you seem like a fanboi for another game coming in here to rag and post misinformation...
Of all that is written, I love only what a person has written with his own blood. -Nietzsche
I've explained this all before. And if you think 4 months before launch all items are made and all encounters are done than I hate to disappoint you about the way MMO's work when it comes to development. Things are constantly changing.
I wasn't saying that I think everything is "done." I was referring to the "concepts" being nailed down, not the individual pieces of armor. In other words. I would expect that you've nailed down which items from where will have what benefits, etc. etc.
And you showed with the rest of your post that you do. I understand what you're saying, and it was the answer I was hoping for. That items would have certain bonuses that you would use for certain situations.
I think this is the most concrete post any developer has ever written on the subject. It sucks that it's in the middle of an mmorpg.com thread and not readily available on the FAQ, or at least somewhere on the main site. Or at least addressed in one of the friday updates, or in the newsletter since so many people still don't understand it. I remember even Sturm said that he had a difficult time getting a straight answer out of Jayde.
I would suggest repeating your answer in a more accessible place.
--------------------------------------------- I live to fight, and fight to live.
It was also the EXACT SAME answer me, Aelfinn and others gave you MONTHS ago, and linked you to all the dev posts you needed to prove it to you... or **FRIGGIN SHOCKER** you could have LOOK FOR THE ANSWER YOURSELF instead of having to have a dev REPEATEDLY spoonfeed it to you like a willfully ignorant fat baby...
Of all that is written, I love only what a person has written with his own blood. -Nietzsche
This all comes down to the statement "No, non raiding end game players are not second class citizens in Age of Conan"
Someone needs to tattoo that on Neanderthal's and Pantastic's ass
Nah, just Pantastic, at least Neanderthal hasn't been deliberately obtuse and hostile about the situation, besides, they wouldn't see it there, perhaps on the back of their hands?
The needle would get tangled up in all the hair on my ass anyway.
Six months to a year after release I really want to talk to you guys about this again (assuming I'm still coming to these forums by then). By the time the game is a year old we will know for sure how this all turned out. If my assumptions were wrong I'll admit I was wrong.
We'll see.
I'd say I hope you get in for the stress test but that wouldn't be long enough to really test the game thoroughly... I am still mystified why you keep posting in here if you have NO intention of playing...
EDIT: let me rephrase, I don't know HOW you post they WAY YOU DO... its one thing to be a disinterest or sightly curious observer, but to be you seem like a fanboi for another game coming in here to rag and post misinformation...
Welcome to the wonderful world of MMORPG.com where fans seem to think that only one game can exist at a time and everything is in black and white and there is nothing in between. Personally I have a lifetime sub to LoTRO but fully intend to try AoC out when it releases. LoTRO will be my longtime game of choice but a bit of variety between expansions is good for the soul. edit- AOC's game trailers look fantastic, I just hope the game play is equal to the graphics.
I'd say I hope you get in for the stress test but that wouldn't be long enough to really test the game thoroughly... I am still mystified why you keep posting in here if you have NO intention of playing...
EDIT: let me rephrase, I don't know HOW you post they WAY YOU DO... its one thing to be a disinterest or sightly curious observer, but to be you seem like a fanboi for another game coming in here to rag and post misinformation...
Actually I'm not a fan of any game currently. That's part of the problem really. If I had a game to get excited about I probably wouldn't bother posting here or anywhere else except the forums for my favorite.
But I do care about the genre. I've had high hopes for mmorpgs which have faded over the years to leave me a bitter, shriveled husk of the gamer I once was. Um....yeah, that's fairly accurate.
Look, I really do care about the genre as a whole (as pathetic as that probably is for a grown man). If I didn't I wouldn't even come to this site. Well, reading about and posting about mmorpgs is sort of a hobby for me. If that makes me a bad person then I guess I'm just a bad person.
And this whole anti-raid hatred thing I have going for games/devs which abitrarily favor raiders...; you have to understand that I wouldn't care for one second IF the developers of those games told people up front that their game was going to be that way. The thing that enrages me is when they sucker non-raiders into their game, get their money, and then a year later the non-raiders discover that they ARE second class citizens in the game.
And I'm not being paranoid. Review the history of mmorpgs. With very single raiding favoritism game that has been made since EQ the developers led non-raiders types to believe that they would have a fair deal in the game. I pick on AoC primarily beause I am convinced that we are seeing this same pattern repeating itself again with this game.
I suspect that Pantastic is here for similar reasons but I can't speak for him.
My real crusade is not AGAINST raiding it is FOR honesty. I want developers to give it to us straight. Tell us specifically and in detail the type of game they are making so that people can make informed decisions on which games to play. Then we could avoid all of the anger and resentment that is generated later on when the players discover that one subset of the community gets prefered treatment.
If developers were honest with us right from the begining you wouldn't see all of the pro-raiding / raid-hating flamewars on various message boards.
Now, am I wrong about AoC? I suppose it's possible. But Athelan did give me a somewhat straight answer finally in the other thread which basically confirms my fears. It was followed by a lot of spin control but that first little bit was significant. You can go reread it if you want although being the optimistic fellow you are I doubt if you would see the implications.
Basically I asked him if I, as a non-raider, would be able to progress my character as far as raiders can. And he said no. Ok, fine. That's all I needed to know. I wish he hadn't followed up with all of the smoke and mirrors hype to throw people like you off from the obvious conclusions this leads to, but he did.
And if this is the case they should put it on their official site in a very visible way so that other people will know, but they won't of course.
Anyway, I don't post here constantly and you know that Sturm. But occassionally I will, and on other forums too. Untill the genre enters a better and more enlighted era the crusade against deciet and injustice continues....or untill I find another hobby.
Again thats all by how you define what constitutes progression tho. Personally, I think you have put yourself into a position where no one can make you happy. I've been honest and refused to tell people what they wanted to hear just because, but the sad fact is usually being openly honest is what bites a developer on the ass. Primary reason being, good intentions don't necessarily mean good results, variables change and so things change. You can't really be anymore honest or open than I have been without claiming that I can pull a Babe Ruth and call out my home runs before I hit them. And If I do that and don't hit home-runs then I am just a "liar" like everyone else you point your finger at. Where in life is there equal parity between all people? Where in life can you find something that without a doubt is the truth and will always be the truth? The best type of "honesty" you can get is simply one of open communication that lets you know as things are changing, and if you can't recognize and respect our efforts to do that in a way most people don't bother to then really why am I here?
P.S. This is not about defending raiding, I already said who the game has been designed for and that hasnt changed.
Combat, Control, Class Distinction Designer for Age of Conan
Quite simply the loot from raiding could be the best for raiding, as an example, but not the best for PvP. If you are a person who enjoys the big encounters and raids, you just want them to be worthwhile you need it to be that raiding is the only way to aquire anything.
Yay! That is what I wnated to hear!!!! A game which gives the option for players to raid, but does not force players to raid to get the best gear.
I always thought this would be a good tool to keep all play styles happy. You like to raid? Great! Here are some raids. And the rewards will help your future raid adventures even more! Enjoy!
Originally posted by Aelfinn You've been answered, multiple times, it is hardly our fault you seem incapable of understanding.
Oh yeah, you're the guy who posted the page written in Norwegien as an answer in spite of the fact that even YOU were incapable of reading it and expected me to simply take it as an answer. You never even acknowledged how completely nuts that was, so there's not really much point in responding to someone who thinks that posting a link to a page that no one in the discussion can even read is an answer.
Originally posted by Athelan This all comes down to the statement "No, non raiding end game players are not second class citizens in Age of Conan"
On one hand, you say the above, which sounds good, yet you also say:
The problem I have with this issue is all this raid hate complains about the fact but "can I get the best without doing it" why do you need the "best" what is the "best"? What are you going to do with the best? As long as you have something to work for to get something better than what you have does whats best at the time matter?
The first statement seems to say that non-raiding end game players will not be second-class citizens, that they will have the same access to the best gear as raiding players. Yet the second one seems to be saying that they won't, it criticizes non-raiders for having the audacity to want to get the best gear, and says that as a non-raider you shouldn't need to have a chance to get the best stuff, that you should be happy as long as there is some gear better than what you have.
Which philosophy do you actually embrace? The "non-raiders are not second-class citizens" or the "You're not a raider, you don't need to get the best and should be happy with second rate gear as long as it's an improvement over what you had before". While I expect the usual equivocation, the simple fact is that the two concepts do not go well together; on one hand you're saying that non-raiders will not be second-class citizens, on the second you state that your problem with the issue is that non-raiders are not content to be second-class citizens.
It definately looks like the role of raiding in AOC is just like it was when I looked at it before, what with the developers openly contemptuous of non-raiders who desire not to be second-rate compared to raiders.
Man I wanted to stay out of this now but that last part that Pantastic brought up touches on something that has been itching at my mind.
Athelan several times now has expressed puzzlement at why non-raiders would WANT the best stuff. Which seems extroidinarily obtuse to me. They are making a progression based game and yet he uses the argument "why do you want to progress your character?"
He might as well be asking, "Why do you want to gain levels?"
It's a PROGRESSION GAME.
Athelan, if you ever convince people that they shouldn't care about progression then NOBODY will be playing your game. And then you game devs will have to find a new format for mmorpgs. Which, honestly, might be the greatest thing to ever happen to the genre. But for now you are making a progression game so it's self-defeating to try to convince people that they shouldn't care about progression.
Some people just dont get it. What most of us want is for uber raid gear, to only be useful or usable on uber raids. Having 'fabled' or 'epic' gear with you on a group dungeon basically shoves the game into easy mode and ruins any fun. With raid and pvp sets there should be bonuses when in raid or pvp zones, but it shouldnt be like previous games where two players in raid or pvp gear can do the job of an entire group. If players really liked raiding for reasons other than getting overpowered gear then they shouldnt have any complaints, since this would mean they get better equipment to use while raiding.
In Age of Conan I would like to see gear downplayed, but still needed. I dont see the point of adding a skill based combat system when gear can shove you into easy mode.
Originally posted by evilastro Some people just dont get it. What most of us want is for uber raid gear, to only be useful or usable on uber raids. Having 'fabled' or 'epic' gear with you on a group dungeon basically shoves the game into easy mode and ruins any fun. With raid and pvp sets there should be bonuses when in raid or pvp zones, but it shouldnt be like previous games where two players in raid or pvp gear can do the job of an entire group. If players really liked raiding for reasons other than getting overpowered gear then they shouldnt have any complaints, since this would mean they get better equipment to use while raiding.In Age of Conan I would like to see gear downplayed, but still needed. I dont see the point of adding a skill based combat system when gear can shove you into easy mode.
Well, I partially agree with you. I agree that gear shouldn't count for everything, but I think it should count more in PvE than in PvP. In PvE, the only reason for doing a dungeon more than once is to get the gear that you can get from that dungeon. If the gear doesn't really help you much, you wont bother doing it more than once. It's fun getting better gear, but not if it barely counts for anything...
Ofcourse, in PvP it's a whole different story. Killing other players is not the same static run as a dungeon. You'll constantly meet different players with different styles of playing (at least if they truly allow you to controll your character), and you should have to adapt quickly in order to kill the opponent.
AmazingAveryAge of Conan AdvocateMemberUncommonPosts: 7,188
Originally posted by Pantastic
Originally posted by Athelan
This all comes down to the statement "No, non raiding end game players are not second class citizens in Age of Conan"
On one hand, you say the above, which sounds good, yet you also say:
The problem I have with this issue is all this raid hate complains about the fact but "can I get the best without doing it" why do you need the "best" what is the "best"? What are you going to do with the best? As long as you have something to work for to get something better than what you have does whats best at the time matter?
The first statement seems to say that non-raiding end game players will not be second-class citizens, that they will have the same access to the best gear as raiding players. Yet the second one seems to be saying that they won't, it criticizes non-raiders for having the audacity to want to get the best gear, and says that as a non-raider you shouldn't need to have a chance to get the best stuff, that you should be happy as long as there is some gear better than what you have.
Which philosophy do you actually embrace? The "non-raiders are not second-class citizens" or the "You're not a raider, you don't need to get the best and should be happy with second rate gear as long as it's an improvement over what you had before". While I expect the usual equivocation, the simple fact is that the two concepts do not go well together; on one hand you're saying that non-raiders will not be second-class citizens, on the second you state that your problem with the issue is that non-raiders are not content to be second-class citizens.
It definately looks like the role of raiding in AOC is just like it was when I looked at it before, what with the developers openly contemptuous of non-raiders who desire not to be second-rate compared to raiders.
Originally posted by Neanderthal
Heh, yeah... Man I wanted to stay out of this now but that last part that Pantastic brought up touches on something that has been itching at my mind. Athelan several times now has expressed puzzlement at why non-raiders would WANT the best stuff. Which seems extroidinarily obtuse to me. They are making a progression based game and yet he uses the argument "why do you want to progress your character?" He might as well be asking, "Why do you want to gain levels?" It's a PROGRESSION GAME. Athelan, if you ever convince people that they shouldn't care about progression then NOBODY will be playing your game. And then you game devs will have to find a new format for mmorpgs. Which, honestly, might be the greatest thing to ever happen to the genre. But for now you are making a progression game so it's self-defeating to try to convince people that they shouldn't care about progression.
I think that you two are most confused and I don't see how.
Yes I am a fan of AoC, but I also consider myself to have the ability to understand English no more than any other person.
He is trying to grasp the whole point of what both of you want in a game so he can better answer your questions.
Hence the questions he asks, but you guys jump in head first and pick apart responses, without informing him in plain English the whole point behind your charade to begin with. It took Neanderthal 4 pages in his introduction thread to get what he was trying to say across. Pantastic's original question was fair but its been answered already - so why nit pick?
Originally posted by Athelan
This all comes down to the statement "No, non raiding end game players are not second class citizens in Age of Conan"
He says they are not second class citizens because raiders have the opportunity to get the best items for what they like doing best from the the things raiders like to do - RAID
Hopefully everyone will have what he wants ,casual gamers fun while they do some pve (instances) and pvp,dedicated pve players will do raids (and hopefully their will be one of the best ) and hardcore pvp players will stop fighting only for food .
But how sure can we be that all that promises will be true before launch .I have read so many times about that raids and raids drops will be best for ones that do raids and pvp rewards will be best for them that do mostly pvp(is there any information that can ensure that or is going to shown recently .
I am asking because i want to fully dedicated to pvp since aoc said that will be so much and i want to be sure that i want have to raid in order to have best gear for pvp (i have raided with dedication in the past games so dont want to do so much especially if pvp rocks).
It will be justified if pvp gear will not be as good for raid or raid drops want be as good as pvp gear for pvp .
I know that this things had been answered many times but i dont want to be disapointed for the otherwise at launch as have been done in many games that where promise everything and gave almost nothing (vg,dnl).
Originally posted by AmazingAvery He is trying to grasp the whole point of what both of you want in a game so he can better answer your questions.
It's not a hard concept; I don't want to be a second class citizen in the game should I choose not to raid, in PVE or PVP content. I don't understand what's so complicated about that postion that he needs to ask the question, the fact that he even needs to ask casts severe doubt on his claim that non-raiders will not be second class citizens, especially with a condescending 'what are you even going to use the best items for', and even more when combined with his earlier unquestioning acceptance of raiders wanting better gear than non-raiders.
Hence the questions he asks, but you guys jump in head first and pick apart responses, without informing him in plain English the whole point behind your charade to begin with.
What 'charade' exactly? You've now accused me of having a "hidden agenda" and of putting forth a "charade", yet you repeatedly fail to state what agenda I'm supposedly hiding or what my charade is covering.
And putting the comments where he questions why non-raiders would even want to be equal to raiders next to the comment where he claims non-raiders will be equal to raiders is hardly picking apart his words.
You've been answered, multiple times, it is hardly our fault you seem incapable of understanding.
Oh yeah, you're the guy who posted the page written in Norwegien as an answer in spite of the fact that even YOU were incapable of reading it and expected me to simply take it as an answer. You never even acknowledged how completely nuts that was, so there's not really much point in responding to someone who thinks that posting a link to a page that no one in the discussion can even read is an answer.
I openly apologized for that mistake, and I realized that it WAS a mistake quickly enough that I could have easily deleted the whole thing and pretended it never happened, excuse me for being honest in my posting.
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. Hemingway
Now, am I wrong about AoC? I suppose it's possible. But Athelan did give me a somewhat straight answer finally in the other thread which basically confirms my fears. It was followed by a lot of spin control but that first little bit was significant. You can go reread it if you want although being the optimistic fellow you are I doubt if you would see the implications.
Basically I asked him if I, as a non-raider, would be able to progress my character as far as raiders can. And he said no. Ok, fine. That's all I needed to know. I wish he hadn't followed up with all of the smoke and mirrors hype to throw people like you off from the obvious conclusions this leads to, but he did.
And if this is the case they should put it on their official site in a very visible way so that other people will know, but they won't of course.
Anyway, I don't post here constantly and you know that Sturm. But occassionally I will, and on other forums too. Untill the genre enters a better and more enlighted era the crusade against deciet and injustice continues....or untill I find another hobby.
Actually, what he told you was quite different than what was apparently your interpretation. If you never raid, you will never experience all of the game's content. Thats a simple enough concept right? If you haven't killed raid boss X, you haven't done everything the game has to offer, that simple. It has little to do with gear available in and out of raiding.
The main problem here is that of how progression is defined, you and Pan apparently define it by having the most powerful gear possible. Personally, I define it by making my character as effective as possible using what he/she has already available. Others define it though exploration, or achievements, or simply experiencing every piece of unique game content. This last option is what Athelan was adressing in his statement.
Originally posted by Pantastic
The first statement seems to say that non-raiding end game players will not be second-class citizens, that they will have the same access to the best gear as raiding players. Yet the second one seems to be saying that they won't, it criticizes non-raiders for having the audacity to want to get the best gear, and says that as a non-raider you shouldn't need to have a chance to get the best stuff, that you should be happy as long as there is some gear better than what you have. Which philosophy do you actually embrace? The "non-raiders are not second-class citizens" or the "You're not a raider, you don't need to get the best and should be happy with second rate gear as long as it's an improvement over what you had before". While I expect the usual equivocation, the simple fact is that the two concepts do not go well together; on one hand you're saying that non-raiders will not be second-class citizens, on the second you state that your problem with the issue is that non-raiders are not content to be second-class citizens. It definately looks like the role of raiding in AOC is just like it was when I looked at it before, what with the developers openly contemptuous of non-raiders who desire not to be second-rate compared to raiders.
It looks to me like he's trying to answer your question without being called a liar later on. What IS the best? That is a damn good question, and you have yet to answer it. If every single item in AoC had only one statistic, they might be able to be directly compared, but they don't, that simple. Sword X obtained through raid Y might be considered by many players to be the best non customized weapon for use in raid W&Z, but second rate everywhere else. PvP gear is a prime example, in PvP, they have a distinct advantage over comparable PvE gear, but are likely only considered average if used in PvE.
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. Hemingway
AmazingAveryAge of Conan AdvocateMemberUncommonPosts: 7,188
Originally posted by Pantastic
Originally posted by AmazingAvery
He is trying to grasp the whole point of what both of you want in a game so he can better answer your questions.
It's not a hard concept; I don't want to be a second class citizen in the game should I choose not to raid, in PVE or PVP content. I don't understand what's so complicated about that postion that he needs to ask the question, the fact that he even needs to ask casts severe doubt on his claim that non-raiders will not be second class citizens, especially with a condescending 'what are you even going to use the best items for', and even more when combined with his earlier unquestioning acceptance of raiders wanting better gear than non-raiders.
Hence the questions he asks, but you guys jump in head first and pick apart responses, without informing him in plain English the whole point behind your charade to begin with.
What 'charade' exactly? You've now accused me of having a "hidden agenda" and of putting forth a "charade", yet you repeatedly fail to state what agenda I'm supposedly hiding or what my charade is covering.
And putting the comments where he questions why non-raiders would even want to be equal to raiders next to the comment where he claims non-raiders will be equal to raiders is hardly picking apart his words.
Ok I meant Charade as in
"charade is a word guessing game. In the form most commonly played today, it is an acting game in which one player acts out a word or phrase, often by pantomiming similar-sounding words, and the other players guess the word or phrase."
Basically because I felt that you were kind of switching the meaning of quotes (in my eyes) about, and had to guess what you was trying to get at - even though the answers have already been said. I didn't acuse you of anything apart from acting out a charade. I didn't state that you had a "hidden agenda" you decided to put that in there and yet again extended it all out to something originally not said.
Im going to leave Athelan to answer you question now if he wants. I can't do any more. But I hope you understand that from my point of view it can be very exasperating when you have said the same thing over and over again, and I can see that from your point of view too!
I'd say I hope you get in for the stress test but that wouldn't be long enough to really test the game thoroughly... I am still mystified why you keep posting in here if you have NO intention of playing...
EDIT: let me rephrase, I don't know HOW you post they WAY YOU DO... its one thing to be a disinterest or sightly curious observer, but to be you seem like a fanboi for another game coming in here to rag and post misinformation...
Actually I'm not a fan of any game currently. That's part of the problem really. If I had a game to get excited about I probably wouldn't bother posting here or anywhere else except the forums for my favorite.
But I do care about the genre. I've had high hopes for mmorpgs which have faded over the years to leave me a bitter, shriveled husk of the gamer I once was. Um....yeah, that's fairly accurate.
Look, I really do care about the genre as a whole (as pathetic as that probably is for a grown man). If I didn't I wouldn't even come to this site. Well, reading about and posting about mmorpgs is sort of a hobby for me. If that makes me a bad person then I guess I'm just a bad person. Well that goes without saying
And this whole anti-raid hatred thing I have going for games/devs which abitrarily favor raiders...; you have to understand that I wouldn't care for one second IF the developers of those games told people up front that their game was going to be that way. The thing that enrages me is when they sucker non-raiders into their game, get their money, and then a year later the non-raiders discover that they ARE second class citizens in the game. As I've said before, noone hates raids more than me, you may hate them AS MUCH, but I believe its physically impossible to hate them more
And I'm not being paranoid. Review the history of mmorpgs. With very single raiding favoritism game that has been made since EQ the developers led non-raiders types to believe that they would have a fair deal in the game. I pick on AoC primarily beause I am convinced that we are seeing this same pattern repeating itself again with this game. Perhaps our motivations for hating raids are different, and that is where we conflict, I really don't give a tinkers damn if Uberraidsword X is the best item to kill mobs in the game, if Ubercraftsword Y is as good, and UberPvPsword Z is better for PvP... the core of the endgame is PvP, with raiding as an alernative for raiders/pveers, PvP is the endgame I'm interested in... and as long as AoC doesn't follow the itemcentric "raid gear or you are gimp" paradigm of WoW, then I'm more than happy...
The AoC devs anwers on this forum and on the official ones is clear: If you want to be a badass on par with the best of teh best, crafting and PvP can get you there and you need NEVER raid...
Of course ANYTHING can be a lie, but then there may be no objective reality and all existance might be a subjective construct of my, or an entities, mind.... going in circles that way won't go anywhere, and its reached the point that you are basically just calling Athelan a liar and thats getting noone anywhere... you either have to accept the word of someone who is actually involved in making the game, or be consumed by your fear and doubt
I suspect that Pantastic is here for similar reasons but I can't speak for him.
My real crusade is not AGAINST raiding it is FOR honesty. I want developers to give it to us straight. Tell us specifically and in detail the type of game they are making so that people can make informed decisions on which games to play. Then we could avoid all of the anger and resentment that is generated later on when the players discover that one subset of the community gets prefered treatment.
If developers were honest with us right from the begining you wouldn't see all of the pro-raiding / raid-hating flamewars on various message boards.
You have a lot of balls saying that considering the extremely specific and detailed answers Athelan has given you and you keep throwing it back in his face... he has specifically said raidiers will not be the uber and non-raider will not be second class citizens, yet you still all but call him a liar, and repeatedly implied as much
Now, am I wrong about AoC? I suppose it's possible. But Athelan did give me a somewhat straight answer finally in the other thread which basically confirms my fears. It was followed by a lot of spin control but that first little bit was significant. You can go reread it if you want although being the optimistic fellow you are I doubt if you would see the implications.
I did read it, and you did the exact thing you talked about but in the opposite, you spun the statement to say what YOU wanted and twisted the connotation... saying that people who want to raid can does not mean that people who don't want to raid need to find another game, and thats exactly how things went down.
Basically I asked him if I, as a non-raider, would be able to progress my character as far as raiders can. And he said no. Ok, fine. That's all I needed to know. I wish he hadn't followed up with all of the smoke and mirrors hype to throw people like you off from the obvious conclusions this leads to, but he did.
No, thats not what happened at all, because you are giving no context, you'll never progress at raiding as much as a raider, but a crafter will have situationally better equipment because of versatility... its just that simple...
A DPS count on X raid drop may be heigher than Y crafted sword, but Y has slots for gems that will make it more effective against, say, fire based enemies so it will have higher DPS in that situation... and you can reslot for Ice enemies later...
Its not X sword > Y, its all a matter of what you want out of a sword, but that always falls on deaf ears with you
And if this is the case they should put it on their official site in a very visible way so that other people will know, but they won't of course.
Anyway, I don't post here constantly and you know that Sturm. But occassionally I will, and on other forums too. Untill the genre enters a better and more enlighted era the crusade against deciet and injustice continues....or untill I find another hobby.
The problem with you and Pantastic always falls down to your abilities to stare at a line of text that clearly says A and you start off ranting that it means B...
Saying one CAN raid is not saying one MUST, its like the kid who tears down others to build himself up and doesn't realize that giving someone else a compliment does not come at his own expense... just because a raider has content and rewards does not mean that non-raiders have to loose content and rewards to give it to him...
One has one line of progression and the other a complete other...
Of all that is written, I love only what a person has written with his own blood. -Nietzsche
He is trying to grasp the whole point of what both of you want in a game so he can better answer your questions.
It's not a hard concept; I don't want to be a second class citizen in the game should I choose not to raid, in PVE or PVP content. I don't understand what's so complicated about that postion that he needs to ask the question, the fact that he even needs to ask casts severe doubt on his claim that non-raiders will not be second class citizens, especially with a condescending 'what are you even going to use the best items for', and even more when combined with his earlier unquestioning acceptance of raiders wanting better gear than non-raiders.
Of course raiders want the best items, everyone wants the best items, but the fact is that raiders will not have the best items for PvP unless the get off of their ass and go earn them PvPing...
Again, like a said to Neandethal, this is a clear case of you not being able to accept that raiders can have rewards and PvPers can have rewards and Crafters can have rewards that are all different and "best" for their particular play style
Hence the questions he asks, but you guys jump in head first and pick apart responses, without informing him in plain English the whole point behind your charade to begin with.
What 'charade' exactly? You've now accused me of having a "hidden agenda" and of putting forth a "charade", yet you repeatedly fail to state what agenda I'm supposedly hiding or what my charade is covering.
And putting the comments where he questions why non-raiders would even want to be equal to raiders next to the comment where he claims non-raiders will be equal to raiders is hardly picking apart his words.
Its not a charade, I think that this guy hasn't' grasped the concept of your posting, what it IS though, is a concrete preconception that you cling to like a fundamentalist clings to his religion being the only truth and all else is lies... the fanaticism with which you and Neanderthal rabidly cling to the idea that AoC is not only item centric, which has been stated that it is not or at least not nearly so much as other MMOs both recent and not (WoW/EQ), but raid centric, again CLEARLY stated that having raids doesnot mean raid uber alles, borders on a religious fervor that I find astounding and preturbing...
As anyone who has tried to have a conversation about philosophy with a "true believer" knows, its totally pointless to talk to someone who is not debating, but clearly arguing with a one-way conversation of stating his view and not prepared to accept any new information no matter how reliable the source
Of all that is written, I love only what a person has written with his own blood. -Nietzsche
Quite simply the loot from raiding could be the best for raiding, as an example, but not the best for PvP. If you are a person who enjoys the big encounters and raids, you just want them to be worthwhile you need it to be that raiding is the only way to aquire anything.
That is a cop out answer IMO.You say that PVE items will be the best for PVE and PVP item will be the best for PVP?So what is the difference between these top items?a few stats or a different graphic, plz tell.
So are you saying that the TOP item i get from PVE will not be any good in PVP Personally i think you are trying to cover your ass and AOC is primarily a PVE game and you know it.Boarder Kingdoms are lvl limited PVP and other than building your guild City and defending it there is not much else to do.
There is no point to your pvp system and there is no vid that i seen proving anything you say about PVP in this game.You are in beta so should have plenty of vids of the boarder kingdoms and PVP in action.
I think you are panicking and never meant AOC to have so many people wanting PVP so now you are hastily trying to put some PVP system together because otherup coming MMORPG is outshining you in the game play side of things.
Be very careful you dont screw the conan IP.MMORPG gamers are fickle these days and they dont take what devs says as gospel,lets see some vids showing boarder kingdom PVP plz.
Quite simply the loot from raiding could be the best for raiding, as an example, but not the best for PvP. If you are a person who enjoys the big encounters and raids, you just want them to be worthwhile you need it to be that raiding is the only way to aquire anything.
That is a cop out answer IMO.You say that PVE items will be the best for PVE and PVP item will be the best for PVP?So what is the difference between these top items?a few stats or a different graphic, plz tell.
So are you saying that the TOP item i get from PVE will not be any good in PVP Personally i think you are trying to cover your ass and AOC is primarily a PVE game and you know it.Boarder Kingdoms are lvl limited PVP and other than building your guild City and defending it there is not much else to do.
There is no point to your pvp system and there is no vid that i seen proving anything you say about PVP in this game.You are in beta so should have plenty of vids of the boarder kingdoms and PVP in action.
I think you are panicking and never meant AOC to have so many people wanting PVP so now you are hastily trying to put some PVP system together because otherup coming MMORPG is outshining you in the game play side of things.
Be very careful you dont screw the conan IP.MMORPG gamers are fickle these days and they dont take what devs says as gospel,lets see some vids showing boarder kingdom PVP plz.
By the way Ive seen it, he means you wont need the best of raid gear to pvp...aka you'll do just fine without it...remember this game is meant to be less gear dependent than many others in the market...so while raid gear will give you certain bonuses, you wont be completely screwed if you deside to leave big part of the game without playing and not raid.
Aka, if you want to just PvP...you will be a second class citizen.
Comments
Nah, just Pantastic, at least Neanderthal hasn't been deliberately obtuse and hostile about the situation, besides, they wouldn't see it there, perhaps on the back of their hands?
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
Hemingway
Nah, just Pantastic, at least Neanderthal hasn't been deliberately obtuse and hostile about the situation, besides, they wouldn't see it there, perhaps on the back of their hands?
The needle would get tangled up in all the hair on my ass anyway.
Six months to a year after release I really want to talk to you guys about this again (assuming I'm still coming to these forums by then). By the time the game is a year old we will know for sure how this all turned out. If my assumptions were wrong I'll admit I was wrong.
We'll see.
Nah, just Pantastic, at least Neanderthal hasn't been deliberately obtuse and hostile about the situation, besides, they wouldn't see it there, perhaps on the back of their hands?
The needle would get tangled up in all the hair on my ass anyway.
Six months to a year after release I really want to talk to you guys about this again (assuming I'm still coming to these forums by then). By the time the game is a year old we will know for sure how this all turned out. If my assumptions were wrong I'll admit I was wrong.
We'll see.
I'd say I hope you get in for the stress test but that wouldn't be long enough to really test the game thoroughly... I am still mystified why you keep posting in here if you have NO intention of playing...
EDIT: let me rephrase, I don't know HOW you post they WAY YOU DO... its one thing to be a disinterest or sightly curious observer, but to be you seem like a fanboi for another game coming in here to rag and post misinformation...
Of all that is written, I love only what a person has written with his own blood. -Nietzsche
I look forward to talking over "post mortem" as it will as long as the conversations are civil.
Combat, Control, Class Distinction Designer for Age of Conan
community.ageofconan.com
And you showed with the rest of your post that you do. I understand what you're saying, and it was the answer I was hoping for. That items would have certain bonuses that you would use for certain situations.
I think this is the most concrete post any developer has ever written on the subject. It sucks that it's in the middle of an mmorpg.com thread and not readily available on the FAQ, or at least somewhere on the main site. Or at least addressed in one of the friday updates, or in the newsletter since so many people still don't understand it. I remember even Sturm said that he had a difficult time getting a straight answer out of Jayde.
I would suggest repeating your answer in a more accessible place.
---------------------------------------------
I live to fight, and fight to live.
It was also the EXACT SAME answer me, Aelfinn and others gave you MONTHS ago, and linked you to all the dev posts you needed to prove it to you... or **FRIGGIN SHOCKER** you could have LOOK FOR THE ANSWER YOURSELF instead of having to have a dev REPEATEDLY spoonfeed it to you like a willfully ignorant fat baby...
Of all that is written, I love only what a person has written with his own blood. -Nietzsche
Nah, just Pantastic, at least Neanderthal hasn't been deliberately obtuse and hostile about the situation, besides, they wouldn't see it there, perhaps on the back of their hands?
The needle would get tangled up in all the hair on my ass anyway.
Six months to a year after release I really want to talk to you guys about this again (assuming I'm still coming to these forums by then). By the time the game is a year old we will know for sure how this all turned out. If my assumptions were wrong I'll admit I was wrong.
We'll see.
I'd say I hope you get in for the stress test but that wouldn't be long enough to really test the game thoroughly... I am still mystified why you keep posting in here if you have NO intention of playing...
EDIT: let me rephrase, I don't know HOW you post they WAY YOU DO... its one thing to be a disinterest or sightly curious observer, but to be you seem like a fanboi for another game coming in here to rag and post misinformation...
Welcome to the wonderful world of MMORPG.com where fans seem to think that only one game can exist at a time and everything is in black and white and there is nothing in between. Personally I have a lifetime sub to LoTRO but fully intend to try AoC out when it releases. LoTRO will be my longtime game of choice but a bit of variety between expansions is good for the soul. edit- AOC's game trailers look fantastic, I just hope the game play is equal to the graphics.I miss DAoC
Actually I'm not a fan of any game currently. That's part of the problem really. If I had a game to get excited about I probably wouldn't bother posting here or anywhere else except the forums for my favorite.
But I do care about the genre. I've had high hopes for mmorpgs which have faded over the years to leave me a bitter, shriveled husk of the gamer I once was. Um....yeah, that's fairly accurate.
Look, I really do care about the genre as a whole (as pathetic as that probably is for a grown man). If I didn't I wouldn't even come to this site. Well, reading about and posting about mmorpgs is sort of a hobby for me. If that makes me a bad person then I guess I'm just a bad person.
And this whole anti-raid hatred thing I have going for games/devs which abitrarily favor raiders...; you have to understand that I wouldn't care for one second IF the developers of those games told people up front that their game was going to be that way. The thing that enrages me is when they sucker non-raiders into their game, get their money, and then a year later the non-raiders discover that they ARE second class citizens in the game.
And I'm not being paranoid. Review the history of mmorpgs. With very single raiding favoritism game that has been made since EQ the developers led non-raiders types to believe that they would have a fair deal in the game. I pick on AoC primarily beause I am convinced that we are seeing this same pattern repeating itself again with this game.
I suspect that Pantastic is here for similar reasons but I can't speak for him.
My real crusade is not AGAINST raiding it is FOR honesty. I want developers to give it to us straight. Tell us specifically and in detail the type of game they are making so that people can make informed decisions on which games to play. Then we could avoid all of the anger and resentment that is generated later on when the players discover that one subset of the community gets prefered treatment.
If developers were honest with us right from the begining you wouldn't see all of the pro-raiding / raid-hating flamewars on various message boards.
Now, am I wrong about AoC? I suppose it's possible. But Athelan did give me a somewhat straight answer finally in the other thread which basically confirms my fears. It was followed by a lot of spin control but that first little bit was significant. You can go reread it if you want although being the optimistic fellow you are I doubt if you would see the implications.
Basically I asked him if I, as a non-raider, would be able to progress my character as far as raiders can. And he said no. Ok, fine. That's all I needed to know. I wish he hadn't followed up with all of the smoke and mirrors hype to throw people like you off from the obvious conclusions this leads to, but he did.
And if this is the case they should put it on their official site in a very visible way so that other people will know, but they won't of course.
Anyway, I don't post here constantly and you know that Sturm. But occassionally I will, and on other forums too. Untill the genre enters a better and more enlighted era the crusade against deciet and injustice continues....or untill I find another hobby.
P.S. This is not about defending raiding, I already said who the game has been designed for and that hasnt changed.
Combat, Control, Class Distinction Designer for Age of Conan
community.ageofconan.com
Yay! That is what I wnated to hear!!!! A game which gives the option for players to raid, but does not force players to raid to get the best gear.
I always thought this would be a good tool to keep all play styles happy. You like to raid? Great! Here are some raids. And the rewards will help your future raid adventures even more! Enjoy!
thanks AoC
Oh yeah, you're the guy who posted the page written in Norwegien as an answer in spite of the fact that even YOU were incapable of reading it and expected me to simply take it as an answer. You never even acknowledged how completely nuts that was, so there's not really much point in responding to someone who thinks that posting a link to a page that no one in the discussion can even read is an answer.
On one hand, you say the above, which sounds good, yet you also say:
The first statement seems to say that non-raiding end game players will not be second-class citizens, that they will have the same access to the best gear as raiding players. Yet the second one seems to be saying that they won't, it criticizes non-raiders for having the audacity to want to get the best gear, and says that as a non-raider you shouldn't need to have a chance to get the best stuff, that you should be happy as long as there is some gear better than what you have.
Which philosophy do you actually embrace? The "non-raiders are not second-class citizens" or the "You're not a raider, you don't need to get the best and should be happy with second rate gear as long as it's an improvement over what you had before". While I expect the usual equivocation, the simple fact is that the two concepts do not go well together; on one hand you're saying that non-raiders will not be second-class citizens, on the second you state that your problem with the issue is that non-raiders are not content to be second-class citizens.
It definately looks like the role of raiding in AOC is just like it was when I looked at it before, what with the developers openly contemptuous of non-raiders who desire not to be second-rate compared to raiders.
Heh, yeah...
Man I wanted to stay out of this now but that last part that Pantastic brought up touches on something that has been itching at my mind.
Athelan several times now has expressed puzzlement at why non-raiders would WANT the best stuff. Which seems extroidinarily obtuse to me. They are making a progression based game and yet he uses the argument "why do you want to progress your character?"
He might as well be asking, "Why do you want to gain levels?"
It's a PROGRESSION GAME.
Athelan, if you ever convince people that they shouldn't care about progression then NOBODY will be playing your game. And then you game devs will have to find a new format for mmorpgs. Which, honestly, might be the greatest thing to ever happen to the genre. But for now you are making a progression game so it's self-defeating to try to convince people that they shouldn't care about progression.
Some people just dont get it. What most of us want is for uber raid gear, to only be useful or usable on uber raids. Having 'fabled' or 'epic' gear with you on a group dungeon basically shoves the game into easy mode and ruins any fun. With raid and pvp sets there should be bonuses when in raid or pvp zones, but it shouldnt be like previous games where two players in raid or pvp gear can do the job of an entire group.
If players really liked raiding for reasons other than getting overpowered gear then they shouldnt have any complaints, since this would mean they get better equipment to use while raiding.
In Age of Conan I would like to see gear downplayed, but still needed. I dont see the point of adding a skill based combat system when gear can shove you into easy mode.
Well, I partially agree with you. I agree that gear shouldn't count for everything, but I think it should count more in PvE than in PvP. In PvE, the only reason for doing a dungeon more than once is to get the gear that you can get from that dungeon. If the gear doesn't really help you much, you wont bother doing it more than once. It's fun getting better gear, but not if it barely counts for anything...
Ofcourse, in PvP it's a whole different story. Killing other players is not the same static run as a dungeon. You'll constantly meet different players with different styles of playing (at least if they truly allow you to controll your character), and you should have to adapt quickly in order to kill the opponent.
--
Age of Conan Wiki
Member of The Axemen
- What archetype will you play?
On one hand, you say the above, which sounds good, yet you also say:
The first statement seems to say that non-raiding end game players will not be second-class citizens, that they will have the same access to the best gear as raiding players. Yet the second one seems to be saying that they won't, it criticizes non-raiders for having the audacity to want to get the best gear, and says that as a non-raider you shouldn't need to have a chance to get the best stuff, that you should be happy as long as there is some gear better than what you have.
Which philosophy do you actually embrace? The "non-raiders are not second-class citizens" or the "You're not a raider, you don't need to get the best and should be happy with second rate gear as long as it's an improvement over what you had before". While I expect the usual equivocation, the simple fact is that the two concepts do not go well together; on one hand you're saying that non-raiders will not be second-class citizens, on the second you state that your problem with the issue is that non-raiders are not content to be second-class citizens.
It definately looks like the role of raiding in AOC is just like it was when I looked at it before, what with the developers openly contemptuous of non-raiders who desire not to be second-rate compared to raiders.
My interpretation is here post number 165: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/1472685#1472685
I think that you two are most confused and I don't see how.
Yes I am a fan of AoC, but I also consider myself to have the ability to understand English no more than any other person.
He is trying to grasp the whole point of what both of you want in a game so he can better answer your questions.
Hence the questions he asks, but you guys jump in head first and pick apart responses, without informing him in plain English the whole point behind your charade to begin with. It took Neanderthal 4 pages in his introduction thread to get what he was trying to say across. Pantastic's original question was fair but its been answered already - so why nit pick?
Originally posted by Athelan
This all comes down to the statement "No, non raiding end game players are not second class citizens in Age of Conan"
He says they are not second class citizens because raiders have the opportunity to get the best items for what they like doing best from the the things raiders like to do - RAID
You take his quotes completely out of context.
Hopefully everyone will have what he wants ,casual gamers fun while they do some pve (instances) and pvp,dedicated pve players will do raids (and hopefully their will be one of the best ) and hardcore pvp players will stop fighting only for food
.
But how sure can we be that all that promises will be true before launch .I have read so many times about that raids and raids drops will be best for ones that do raids and pvp rewards will be best for them that do mostly pvp(is there any information that can ensure that or is going to shown recently .
I am asking because i want to fully dedicated to pvp since aoc said that will be so much and i want to be sure that i want have to raid in order to have best gear for pvp (i have raided with dedication in the past games so dont want to do so much especially if pvp rocks).
It will be justified if pvp gear will not be as good for raid or raid drops want be as good as pvp gear for pvp .
I know that this things had been answered many times but i dont want to be disapointed for the otherwise at launch as have been done in many games that where promise everything and gave almost nothing (vg,dnl).
It's not a hard concept; I don't want to be a second class citizen in the game should I choose not to raid, in PVE or PVP content. I don't understand what's so complicated about that postion that he needs to ask the question, the fact that he even needs to ask casts severe doubt on his claim that non-raiders will not be second class citizens, especially with a condescending 'what are you even going to use the best items for', and even more when combined with his earlier unquestioning acceptance of raiders wanting better gear than non-raiders.
What 'charade' exactly? You've now accused me of having a "hidden agenda" and of putting forth a "charade", yet you repeatedly fail to state what agenda I'm supposedly hiding or what my charade is covering.
And putting the comments where he questions why non-raiders would even want to be equal to raiders next to the comment where he claims non-raiders will be equal to raiders is hardly picking apart his words.
Oh yeah, you're the guy who posted the page written in Norwegien as an answer in spite of the fact that even YOU were incapable of reading it and expected me to simply take it as an answer. You never even acknowledged how completely nuts that was, so there's not really much point in responding to someone who thinks that posting a link to a page that no one in the discussion can even read is an answer.
I openly apologized for that mistake, and I realized that it WAS a mistake quickly enough that I could have easily deleted the whole thing and pretended it never happened, excuse me for being honest in my posting.
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
Hemingway
Actually, what he told you was quite different than what was apparently your interpretation. If you never raid, you will never experience all of the game's content. Thats a simple enough concept right? If you haven't killed raid boss X, you haven't done everything the game has to offer, that simple. It has little to do with gear available in and out of raiding.
The main problem here is that of how progression is defined, you and Pan apparently define it by having the most powerful gear possible. Personally, I define it by making my character as effective as possible using what he/she has already available. Others define it though exploration, or achievements, or simply experiencing every piece of unique game content. This last option is what Athelan was adressing in his statement.
It looks to me like he's trying to answer your question without being called a liar later on. What IS the best? That is a damn good question, and you have yet to answer it. If every single item in AoC had only one statistic, they might be able to be directly compared, but they don't, that simple. Sword X obtained through raid Y might be considered by many players to be the best non customized weapon for use in raid W&Z, but second rate everywhere else. PvP gear is a prime example, in PvP, they have a distinct advantage over comparable PvE gear, but are likely only considered average if used in PvE.
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
Hemingway
It's not a hard concept; I don't want to be a second class citizen in the game should I choose not to raid, in PVE or PVP content. I don't understand what's so complicated about that postion that he needs to ask the question, the fact that he even needs to ask casts severe doubt on his claim that non-raiders will not be second class citizens, especially with a condescending 'what are you even going to use the best items for', and even more when combined with his earlier unquestioning acceptance of raiders wanting better gear than non-raiders.
What 'charade' exactly? You've now accused me of having a "hidden agenda" and of putting forth a "charade", yet you repeatedly fail to state what agenda I'm supposedly hiding or what my charade is covering.
And putting the comments where he questions why non-raiders would even want to be equal to raiders next to the comment where he claims non-raiders will be equal to raiders is hardly picking apart his words.
Ok I meant Charade as in
"charade is a word guessing game. In the form most commonly played today, it is an acting game in which one player acts out a word or phrase, often by pantomiming similar-sounding words, and the other players guess the word or phrase."
Basically because I felt that you were kind of switching the meaning of quotes (in my eyes) about, and had to guess what you was trying to get at - even though the answers have already been said. I didn't acuse you of anything apart from acting out a charade. I didn't state that you had a "hidden agenda" you decided to put that in there and yet again extended it all out to something originally not said.
Im going to leave Athelan to answer you question now if he wants. I can't do any more. But I hope you understand that from my point of view it can be very exasperating when you have said the same thing over and over again, and I can see that from your point of view too!
Actually I'm not a fan of any game currently. That's part of the problem really. If I had a game to get excited about I probably wouldn't bother posting here or anywhere else except the forums for my favorite.
But I do care about the genre. I've had high hopes for mmorpgs which have faded over the years to leave me a bitter, shriveled husk of the gamer I once was. Um....yeah, that's fairly accurate.
Look, I really do care about the genre as a whole (as pathetic as that probably is for a grown man). If I didn't I wouldn't even come to this site. Well, reading about and posting about mmorpgs is sort of a hobby for me. If that makes me a bad person then I guess I'm just a bad person. Well that goes without saying
And this whole anti-raid hatred thing I have going for games/devs which abitrarily favor raiders...; you have to understand that I wouldn't care for one second IF the developers of those games told people up front that their game was going to be that way. The thing that enrages me is when they sucker non-raiders into their game, get their money, and then a year later the non-raiders discover that they ARE second class citizens in the game. As I've said before, noone hates raids more than me, you may hate them AS MUCH, but I believe its physically impossible to hate them more
And I'm not being paranoid. Review the history of mmorpgs. With very single raiding favoritism game that has been made since EQ the developers led non-raiders types to believe that they would have a fair deal in the game. I pick on AoC primarily beause I am convinced that we are seeing this same pattern repeating itself again with this game. Perhaps our motivations for hating raids are different, and that is where we conflict, I really don't give a tinkers damn if Uberraidsword X is the best item to kill mobs in the game, if Ubercraftsword Y is as good, and UberPvPsword Z is better for PvP... the core of the endgame is PvP, with raiding as an alernative for raiders/pveers, PvP is the endgame I'm interested in... and as long as AoC doesn't follow the itemcentric "raid gear or you are gimp" paradigm of WoW, then I'm more than happy...
The AoC devs anwers on this forum and on the official ones is clear: If you want to be a badass on par with the best of teh best, crafting and PvP can get you there and you need NEVER raid...
Of course ANYTHING can be a lie, but then there may be no objective reality and all existance might be a subjective construct of my, or an entities, mind.... going in circles that way won't go anywhere, and its reached the point that you are basically just calling Athelan a liar and thats getting noone anywhere... you either have to accept the word of someone who is actually involved in making the game, or be consumed by your fear and doubt
I suspect that Pantastic is here for similar reasons but I can't speak for him.
My real crusade is not AGAINST raiding it is FOR honesty. I want developers to give it to us straight. Tell us specifically and in detail the type of game they are making so that people can make informed decisions on which games to play. Then we could avoid all of the anger and resentment that is generated later on when the players discover that one subset of the community gets prefered treatment.
If developers were honest with us right from the begining you wouldn't see all of the pro-raiding / raid-hating flamewars on various message boards.
You have a lot of balls saying that considering the extremely specific and detailed answers Athelan has given you and you keep throwing it back in his face... he has specifically said raidiers will not be the uber and non-raider will not be second class citizens, yet you still all but call him a liar, and repeatedly implied as much
Now, am I wrong about AoC? I suppose it's possible. But Athelan did give me a somewhat straight answer finally in the other thread which basically confirms my fears. It was followed by a lot of spin control but that first little bit was significant. You can go reread it if you want although being the optimistic fellow you are I doubt if you would see the implications.
I did read it, and you did the exact thing you talked about but in the opposite, you spun the statement to say what YOU wanted and twisted the connotation... saying that people who want to raid can does not mean that people who don't want to raid need to find another game, and thats exactly how things went down.
Basically I asked him if I, as a non-raider, would be able to progress my character as far as raiders can. And he said no. Ok, fine. That's all I needed to know. I wish he hadn't followed up with all of the smoke and mirrors hype to throw people like you off from the obvious conclusions this leads to, but he did.
No, thats not what happened at all, because you are giving no context, you'll never progress at raiding as much as a raider, but a crafter will have situationally better equipment because of versatility... its just that simple...
A DPS count on X raid drop may be heigher than Y crafted sword, but Y has slots for gems that will make it more effective against, say, fire based enemies so it will have higher DPS in that situation... and you can reslot for Ice enemies later...
Its not X sword > Y, its all a matter of what you want out of a sword, but that always falls on deaf ears with you
And if this is the case they should put it on their official site in a very visible way so that other people will know, but they won't of course.
Anyway, I don't post here constantly and you know that Sturm. But occassionally I will, and on other forums too. Untill the genre enters a better and more enlighted era the crusade against deciet and injustice continues....or untill I find another hobby.
The problem with you and Pantastic always falls down to your abilities to stare at a line of text that clearly says A and you start off ranting that it means B...
Saying one CAN raid is not saying one MUST, its like the kid who tears down others to build himself up and doesn't realize that giving someone else a compliment does not come at his own expense... just because a raider has content and rewards does not mean that non-raiders have to loose content and rewards to give it to him...
One has one line of progression and the other a complete other...
Of all that is written, I love only what a person has written with his own blood. -Nietzsche
It's not a hard concept; I don't want to be a second class citizen in the game should I choose not to raid, in PVE or PVP content. I don't understand what's so complicated about that postion that he needs to ask the question, the fact that he even needs to ask casts severe doubt on his claim that non-raiders will not be second class citizens, especially with a condescending 'what are you even going to use the best items for', and even more when combined with his earlier unquestioning acceptance of raiders wanting better gear than non-raiders.
Of course raiders want the best items, everyone wants the best items, but the fact is that raiders will not have the best items for PvP unless the get off of their ass and go earn them PvPing...
Again, like a said to Neandethal, this is a clear case of you not being able to accept that raiders can have rewards and PvPers can have rewards and Crafters can have rewards that are all different and "best" for their particular play style
What 'charade' exactly? You've now accused me of having a "hidden agenda" and of putting forth a "charade", yet you repeatedly fail to state what agenda I'm supposedly hiding or what my charade is covering.
And putting the comments where he questions why non-raiders would even want to be equal to raiders next to the comment where he claims non-raiders will be equal to raiders is hardly picking apart his words.
Its not a charade, I think that this guy hasn't' grasped the concept of your posting, what it IS though, is a concrete preconception that you cling to like a fundamentalist clings to his religion being the only truth and all else is lies... the fanaticism with which you and Neanderthal rabidly cling to the idea that AoC is not only item centric, which has been stated that it is not or at least not nearly so much as other MMOs both recent and not (WoW/EQ), but raid centric, again CLEARLY stated that having raids doesnot mean raid uber alles, borders on a religious fervor that I find astounding and preturbing...
As anyone who has tried to have a conversation about philosophy with a "true believer" knows, its totally pointless to talk to someone who is not debating, but clearly arguing with a one-way conversation of stating his view and not prepared to accept any new information no matter how reliable the source
Of all that is written, I love only what a person has written with his own blood. -Nietzsche
So are you saying that the TOP item i get from PVE will not be any good in PVP Personally i think you are trying to cover your ass and AOC is primarily a PVE game and you know it.Boarder Kingdoms are lvl limited PVP and other than building your guild City and defending it there is not much else to do.
There is no point to your pvp system and there is no vid that i seen proving anything you say about PVP in this game.You are in beta so should have plenty of vids of the boarder kingdoms and PVP in action.
I think you are panicking and never meant AOC to have so many people wanting PVP so now you are hastily trying to put some PVP system together because otherup coming MMORPG is outshining you in the game play side of things.
Be very careful you dont screw the conan IP.MMORPG gamers are fickle these days and they dont take what devs says as gospel,lets see some vids showing boarder kingdom PVP plz.
So are you saying that the TOP item i get from PVE will not be any good in PVP Personally i think you are trying to cover your ass and AOC is primarily a PVE game and you know it.Boarder Kingdoms are lvl limited PVP and other than building your guild City and defending it there is not much else to do.
There is no point to your pvp system and there is no vid that i seen proving anything you say about PVP in this game.You are in beta so should have plenty of vids of the boarder kingdoms and PVP in action.
I think you are panicking and never meant AOC to have so many people wanting PVP so now you are hastily trying to put some PVP system together because otherup coming MMORPG is outshining you in the game play side of things.
Be very careful you dont screw the conan IP.MMORPG gamers are fickle these days and they dont take what devs says as gospel,lets see some vids showing boarder kingdom PVP plz.
By the way Ive seen it, he means you wont need the best of raid gear to pvp...aka you'll do just fine without it...remember this game is meant to be less gear dependent than many others in the market...so while raid gear will give you certain bonuses, you wont be completely screwed if you deside to leave big part of the game without playing and not raid.
Aka, if you want to just PvP...you will be a second class citizen.