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article: Goonswarm vs CCP
cosy
Member UncommonPosts: 3,228
today was published a article about "GS vs CCP" on ten ton hammer
Over the last few weeks, a gladiatorial duel has been waged between two opposing factions, each of which believes that they are in the right. The two combatants are the game development studio, CCP Games, and their in-game customers, the GoonSwarm alliance. Their chosen arena is EVE Online, and each side is determined to win this battle. If you haven't been following the ongoing chronicle of EVE Online, there's a bevy of information available on the Internet, everything from accusations of developer misconduct to previous responses made by CCP. Everyone seemed to have an opinion on the matter, including some of the Internet's most prominent bloggers and news sites.Just as things were beginning to die down, the hornet's nest was kicked again when the Ten Ton Hammer staff published an interview with CCP CMO, Magnus Bergsson, which held a brief statement about the conduct of a portion of their player base. GoonSwarm, enlivened by the remarks made by Bergsson, issued a formal response with Ten Ton Hammer. To make matters fair, we also asked CCP for a follow-up response to the GoonSwarm statement. As always, if you have any thoughts on what you read below, please feel free to email us or talk about it in our forums!
The recent scandal was a response from the EVE community as a whole. EVE is billed as a "sandbox", created by CCP but always with the intention of being developed by the players. Customers create characters and venture into the "box" to shape the metaphorical hills and valleys in the "sand". Whether it be through conflict or peace, destruction or production, we as the entire collection of people who play EVE wish to be in charge of our own direction.Developer misconduct has occured in the past, a fact admitted by the company. Direct communication between players and members of CCP's volunteer team which handles forum moderation, in-game bug hunting and storyline development has occured despite the rule that members of the volunteer program should under no circumstances reveal who they are to anyone, a fact admitted by some of the players and members of the volunteer team in unison. Both instances lead to the perception that biased influence is being injected like a virus into the "sandbox" which strips away some of the freedom people log in to experience.
We all play this game to have fun, whether it be to rise to power as a space-controlling alliance, to corner a part of the player-driven market and reap the financial benefits, or simply to undock and fly off into the darkness looking for a target to point our guns toward with the expectation that no favoritism from an outside and infinitely powerful entity exists.
Resentment occurs when the assumed level playing ground begins to vanish, regardless of which side it appears to favor. The scandals existed and exist whether Goonswarm plays or not, to paint it any differently is to hypocritically deny that there has ever been a problem. While a collection of members within Goonswarm made a loud racket (primarily a knee-jerk reaction to the perception that misconduct still exists even after CCP's creation of an Internal Affairs department to stamp out such issues), the voices of hundreds and hundreds of other unaffiliated players rose up from all corners of EVE's universe to express their equally shared dissatisfaction.
EVE Online is an amazing source of entertainment with a vast market, constant conflict and heart-pounding PvP combat always at the hand of, and created by, the players, using the systems set up by the developers. The space for metagaming within the conflict between powerful groups and alliances of players with respect to internal disruption and spying is by far one of the best "features" which has come about, again due to the actions of players interacting this way within the unbiased construct of the game. Many people play the game solely for this aspect and the desire to lay waste to whatever opposition bars their way, or to stand up and fight against the well-established old powers of veteran characters.
It's not about winning or losing an intergalactic space war inside an imaginary universe on the internet, it is about feeling secure that whatever we do is the direct result of our own efforts free from the assistance or impedance of a guiding hand. To view the events that transpired as unwarranted outrage or to claim that a certain group of people behaved in a manner purely because of a conflict within a computer game is to ignore and discard the feelings and opinions of many thousands more who wish to see EVE shine in its full capacity and enjoy the ride.
- Goonswarm
The increased interest in EVE Online, not only from gamers but multilaterally even from those who have never actually played the game illustrates the extraordinary characteristics we believe set us apart. Just because it's a game doesn't mean that everything related to it is virtual. It's compelling, aggressive and provocative, and those core elements are not only what makes it interesting but also what can evoke real emotion from the players who delve deeply into it. They have a genuine sense of ownership within the gameworld that we want to encourage. Moving beyond the confines of the server lines to discuss in-game matters with gusto and fervor is as much a part of the game for them as hunting NPCs or building a battleship. It's that passion that inspires us as developers and makes us strive to continue to push the boundaries of what EVE is and all that it can be.- CCP
u can read the article here
BestSigEver :P
Comments
QFT
Goonswarm (as in their leaders and members) have already stated that they are not enjoying themselves unless they are scamming, griefing, harrassing, or otherwise diminishing the enjoyment of other non-Goonswarm players. As far as most of the rest of the EVE community is concerned, they could all disappear and leave to WAR when it releases and no one would care in the least bit. EVE would be a better place to play.
(DISCLAIMER: (When I talk as though I am speaking for the majority of the EVE community, it is based on the opinions expressed in the official EVE-Online Forums and to be taken with a grain of salt.)
I honestly don't know anyone taking Goonswarm seriously anymore. Usually if it comes from them it is listed as "Goon propaganda" by players and ignored... No one takes them seriously anymore after their "Threadnaught" was commenced by a leader who quit a couple days later.
Are you by any chance a member of Goonswarm?
It seems you are one of a few who really seem to care about this and besides we have already seen all of this ages ago.
---
Its always funny when the pot calls the kettle black
Goonswarm does have its bad elements but they did bring to the surface many things wrong at CCP (Rigged RP events BOB direct contact with CCP via MSN for problem fixes etc).
Yes BoB has stated its only right and fair they have special privilages as they are friends with the Devs and been in the game since its start, but that doesn't make for a balanced playing field and all the the BoB Propaganda in the world is just that.. There are 2 sides to every story.
I'm sure they got rich off a handful of T2 ammo BPOs. That also must be the only reason they have succeeded as well as they have. You know what else? I bet every GM, Developer, Marketer, Administrator, and even the Janitors at CCP are all members of BOB and all conspiring to hold on to their system using nothing but cheats and hack in their own game. All their "pets" (friendly alliances) are their relatives and friends at their side too. Not to mention that if they ever get in a tight spot all they do is hit a big red "LAG" button that causes the other side to lag out and give them an advantage. Does that sum it up?
People need to get real. These guys care about their game and it shows in many ways. CCP is a great company and they take pride in this game. One person cheats in the game and lies to his superiors about what he has done (T20) and all the sudden everyone in CCP must be a bad apple too.
Sheesh, talk about a rumor mill for a community... Most of the EVE community is great until it comes to some kind of rumors. Kind of odd really. I like to believe it is the loud minority still complaining. Either that or remnants of the Goons trying to carry out the Threadnaught. Seems to only be a few people posting over and over about it.
Ahh yeah ... a bunch of screenshots without timestamps so you have actually NO idea if those are the correct ones, or actually WHEN they where made.
Facts are that those screenshots did prove shit... they where just as informative as Goonswarms screenshots about events.
So where are we left with ? Bob did recive help from Dev's... Bob do have MSN contacts within the Dev's, BoB did benefit from the blueprints but where never punished or deducted isk from what they might have earned, BoB's leadership broke the EULA several times but where never punished for it... however CCP did punish others who break the EULA.
For me BoB will always be tainted with cheats and CCP will always be tainted for favorism and cheating in their own game... that means for me that I no longer play the game and I can't ever play the game to CCP does the only right thing and set things straight again.
It also means I can never play any future games where CCP have their hands on because frankly I can't be sure they will make a fair game.
In any games where BoB is playing I will think they are cheating ... because I know they did in this game...
Too bad it also reflects on any BoB members who really have had no clue about what their leadership did and CCP.
If I still played the game I would NEVER let anyone with a BoB history into my corporation.
Ahh yeah ... a bunch of screenshots without timestamps so you have actually NO idea if those are the correct ones, or actually WHEN they where made Very true.
Facts are that those screenshots did prove shit well they were a lot more authentic looking than what goonswarm provided which was largly just a letter with some what could have been photoshoped chatlogs... they where just as informative as Goonswarms screenshots about events Yep.
So where are we left with ? Bob did recive help from Dev's Proof pls... Bob do have MSN contacts within the Dev's Proof pls, BoB did benefit from the blueprints this is true but rmember any proceds gained were just a drop in the ocean so its not like those prints turned the tide of any wars but where never punished or deducted isk from what they might have earned and how should you punish someone who may not have known those bluprints were dodgy hmm its not like it was ever proven beyond a doubt that BoB knew also the cash is pretty impossable to track in eve because of the sheer number of transactions a big alliance like that does ona daily basis, BoB's leadership broke the EULA several times but where never punished for it read my last responce there was no proof the leadership knew that dev gave the stuff over usig an alt anonymously... however CCP did punish others who break the EULA yep because CCP could prove they broke the EULA.
For me BoB will always be tainted with cheats and CCP will always be tainted for favorism and cheating in their own game... that means for me that I no longer play the game and I can't ever play the game to CCP does the only right thing and set things straight again. Understandable you belive the devs are corrupt but are willing to come abck if things are fixed which is fare enough, i hope you are ok till then
It also means I can never play any future games where CCP have their hands on because frankly I can't be sure they will make a fair game.
In any games where BoB is playing I will think they are cheating ... because I know they did in this game... Same goes for goonswarm really not just in eve but other games goonswarm play too
Too bad it also reflects on any BoB members who really have had no clue about what their leadership did and CCP.
If I still played the game I would NEVER let anyone with a BoB history into my corporation. Yes it does reflect badly on that alliance but once again i will say as far as the investigation went they thought the guy who gave over the blueprints was a real player and those prints were legitamate. Do we belive then....well maybee but to be frank we have no solid proof either way.
I think what came through in that post was the assumption that the BoB leadership knew those were illegally obtained bluprints [i.e. they were magically spawned by T20]. But what you should rrememer and this came out in te investigation is that T2 did not give out those bluprints it was his gaming alt and most if not all of BoB did not know it was a dev alt. So there was no way they could have considered they were illegal copies.
My overall point is there is no real proof that BoB knowingly accepted illegal blueprints.
i and you kinda ignored one "little thing"
CCP response is not a response(response definitions )is kinda "let say some words to look good and make a little publicity" , i get that feeling
BestSigEver :P
I think what came through in that post was the assumption that the BoB leadership knew those were illegally obtained bluprints [i.e. they were magically spawned by T20]. But what you should rrememer and this came out in te investigation is that T2 did not give out those bluprints it was his gaming alt and most if not all of BoB did not know it was a dev alt. So there was no way they could have considered they were illegal copies.
My overall point is there is no real proof that BoB knowingly accepted illegal blueprints.
I have to say i started playing this game and really enjoyed it for a few months, then i made the mistake of begining to read the forums. and i found out about the whole "Corruption" thing, while usually i take these things with a pinch of salt, i saw that it was confirmed by CCP that there had indeed been a dev that handed out items.
Well, ive been involved in a game before where something similar happened, and i had no wish to play in another one, i for one canceled by account. and im sure im not the only one who is put of playing this game because of this continuing "corruption" scandle.
i have to say CCP handled this very badly, and they manage the forums very badly aswell. and im sure this is another factor that will prevent some people from joining there game.
I think what came through in that post was the assumption that the BoB leadership knew those were illegally obtained bluprints [i.e. they were magically spawned by T20]. But what you should rrememer and this came out in te investigation is that T2 did not give out those bluprints it was his gaming alt and most if not all of BoB did not know it was a dev alt. So there was no way they could have considered they were illegal copies.
My overall point is there is no real proof that BoB knowingly accepted illegal blueprints.
I dont think ill say much more on this as this is in danger of De-railing this topic ill just end in saying i prefer to Try to look at things from both sides so if i seem to come out all for CCp like a rabid Fanperson its not that i just like to be fare to all. When possable.n.
I'm sure they got rich off a handful of T2 ammo BPOs. That also must be the only reason they have succeeded as well as they have. You know what else? I bet every GM, Developer, Marketer, Administrator, and even the Janitors at CCP are all members of BOB and all conspiring to hold on to their system using nothing but cheats and hack in their own game. All their "pets" (friendly alliances) are their relatives and friends at their side too. Not to mention that if they ever get in a tight spot all they do is hit a big red "LAG" button that causes the other side to lag out and give them an advantage. Does that sum it up?
People need to get real. These guys care about their game and it shows in many ways. CCP is a great company and they take pride in this game. One person cheats in the game and lies to his superiors about what he has done (T20) and all the sudden everyone in CCP must be a bad apple too.
Sheesh, talk about a rumor mill for a community... Most of the EVE community is great until it comes to some kind of rumors. Kind of odd really. I like to believe it is the loud minority still complaining. Either that or remnants of the Goons trying to carry out the Threadnaught. Seems to only be a few people posting over and over about it.
i got an occator bpo, i have like 6 billion in my wallet and i haven't attempted to make money since like 1.7 years ago. I just afk materials with a freighter to build the occators on a second account while i blow up other peoples ships on my main. also not only do I have 6 billion, but i haven't paid money to play eve for like 2 years, I just buy time cards with isk for all 3 accounts... it's all the occator BPO, sure it might not be enough money for some mega capital ship. But the point is I haven't done shit to make money except build occators, also selling player dropped loot.I've been convinced ccp have been in bob since they were waiting near the start of the caldari race and since there just happened to be an event one jump out of hlw while a bob fleet was coming down to curse to log off (after they saw our fleet that is), then back on, then get a couple ships blown up, then log off again, then back on, then gank some noobs in off hours to save face and run back to empire as fast as they can.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
if I were to kill a titan tomorrow and no CCP employees showed up to say grats I would petition it.
Waiting for: the next MMO that lets me make this macro
if hp < 30 then CastSpell("heal") SpellTargetUnit("player") else CastSpell("smite") end
You know, if you want to base your decision to not play a game on a bunch of nonsensical accusations that have zero basis in fact, that is your decision.
But coming on a forum and ranting about such just makes everyone else laugh at you. It just comes off as a silly whine.
Nothing like throwing any credibility you had out the door.
CCP has been more up front about this than any developer has in the history of MMO's. Do you think Blizzard or SOE would have replied to the goons or even taken the time to produce the results of their investigation. Heck no.
I have more respect for CCP after this incident than I had before. They are in my mind one of the best developers out there, bar none.
[quote]Originally posted by JADEDRAG0N
re·sponse (r?-sp?ns')[b]
n.
[*]The act of responding. CCP did respond by making an investigation and publishing the results.
[*]A reply or an answer. They posted the results of the investigation
[*]A reaction, as that of an organism or a mechanism, to a specific stimulus. Err look above and so on.
[list=a]
Ecclesiastical. Something that is spoken or sung by a congregation or choir in answer to the officiating minister or priest.
A responsory.
[/list]
[/b][/quote]
the answer was this
BestSigEver :P
I'm sure they got rich off a handful of T2 ammo BPOs. That also must be the only reason they have succeeded as well as they have. You know what else? I bet every GM, Developer, Marketer, Administrator, and even the Janitors at CCP are all members of BOB and all conspiring to hold on to their system using nothing but cheats and hack in their own game. All their "pets" (friendly alliances) are their relatives and friends at their side too. Not to mention that if they ever get in a tight spot all they do is hit a big red "LAG" button that causes the other side to lag out and give them an advantage. Does that sum it up?
People need to get real. These guys care about their game and it shows in many ways. CCP is a great company and they take pride in this game. One person cheats in the game and lies to his superiors about what he has done (T20) and all the sudden everyone in CCP must be a bad apple too.
Sheesh, talk about a rumor mill for a community... Most of the EVE community is great until it comes to some kind of rumors. Kind of odd really. I like to believe it is the loud minority still complaining. Either that or remnants of the Goons trying to carry out the Threadnaught. Seems to only be a few people posting over and over about it.
i got an occator bpo, i have like 6 billion in my wallet and i haven't attempted to make money since like 1.7 years ago. I just afk materials with a freighter to build the occators on a second account while i blow up other peoples ships on my main. also not only do I have 6 billion, but i haven't paid money to play eve for like 2 years, I just buy time cards with isk for all 3 accounts... it's all the occator BPO, sure it might not be enough money for some mega capital ship. But the point is I haven't done shit to make money except build occators, also selling player dropped loot.I've been convinced ccp have been in bob since they were waiting near the start of the caldari race and since there just happened to be an event one jump out of hlw while a bob fleet was coming down to curse to log off (after they saw our fleet that is), then back on, then get a couple ships blown up, then log off again, then back on, then gank some noobs in off hours to save face and run back to empire as fast as they can.
An occator is a tech 2 hauler. Not just any Tech 2 hauler, the "BEST" tech 2 hauler there is in the game before frieghtor. How do you get off track comparing a tech 2 ship of any kind (let alone the best of one ship type, a hauler) to a handful of more common tech 2 ammo blue prints? Do you even understand the difference here?
It sounds to me from your second paragraph your corp got beat down and you are willing to believe anything that gives your corp some kind of excuse. You went from comparing totally different blue prints to complaining about BoB beating you.
No Other game company has ever been accused as vehemently by the players to corruption. someone posted info about WOW's policies, I'm sure most game companies are very set that you cannot show favoritism in any way.....they don't even want players knowing your a dev if your playing the game.......
BOB on their own forums has stated "that the devs need friends too". no other player organization has ever admitted to a being friends with DEV's in any other mmorpg as far as I know. If devs tell players who they are, its considered a form of cheating, just sharing that info, and grounds for dismissal (from what I hear) regarding WOW's policies....
CCP has no one to blame but themselves for mishandling this fiasco, if they had fired T20 before the players even knew about this incident, (like all the previous ones that happened), then this would of occured in a different light. And that also makes you think, btw, this wasn't the first time this has happened, just the first time the CCP employee wasn't fired over the incident........they didn't follow their ownpolicy of firing employees who cheat in game..........
The way CCP acts on their forums with trying to keep "freedom of speech" in limbo, you'd have to be really short sighted to not think they have something to hide.........I think that their forum policies are worst than the actual cheating/corruption, because it makes people think where there is smoke, there is fire.....
==========================
The game is dead not, this game is good we make it and Romania Tv give it 5 goat heads, this is good rating for game.
Aren't those behaviours explicitly allowed and encouraged by the developers of the game? How can you criticise Goonswarm for "scamming" and "harassing" other players when the ability to do that is normally presented as a major game feature. I've seen people state on this forum that they were attracted to EVE in the first place by the exploits of scammers, specifically the guy who got annoyed at a corp, joined it on an alt, got into a high position, then stole a bunch of stuff and ambushed the CEO. That's certainly someone scamming, greifing, and harassing people with the goal of diminishing thier enjoyment, how can you criticize the Goons for playing the game in the way that the developers have said they intend?
I don't even like the goons very much, but if EVE's full PVP that includes things like scamming is a selling point of the game, it's simply not reasonable to criticize a particular group for engaging in what is called PVP in that game.
Aren't those behaviours explicitly allowed and encouraged by the developers of the game? How can you criticise Goonswarm for "scamming" and "harassing" other players when the ability to do that is normally presented as a major game feature. I've seen people state on this forum that they were attracted to EVE in the first place by the exploits of scammers, specifically the guy who got annoyed at a corp, joined it on an alt, got into a high position, then stole a bunch of stuff and ambushed the CEO. That's certainly someone scamming, greifing, and harassing people with the goal of diminishing thier enjoyment, how can you criticize the Goons for playing the game in the way that the developers have said they intend?
I don't even like the goons very much, but if EVE's full PVP that includes things like scamming is a selling point of the game, it's simply not reasonable to criticize a particular group for engaging in what is called PVP in that game.
Err the difference is that goonswarm are perfectlyhappy to cheat [as in alter the clent] to gain an advantage and no its not EvE';s purpose for people to ruin others enjoyment. The other stuff sure thing within the game mechanics. Sadly tho Goonswarm has a history of operating outside the game mechanics [such as creating a plug in program to create a quick targeting friend or foe system.
The criticism of goonswarm was that they engage in "scamming, griefing, harrassing, or otherwise diminishing the enjoyment of other non-Goonswarm players," not that they at one point modified the client.
OK, where do you get that? According to the developers and many players, ruining other's enjoyment is core to the play of EVE; running scams, setting up gate camps, suicide-ganking some relatively noobish guy in a hauler, hunting down a corp you don't like until they're forced to disband, etc. While it's reasonable to criticise a goon guild for doing that kind of stuff in a game like WOW that doesn't encourage it, it's simply not a valid criticism in EVE since the ability to do that is a selling point of EVE.