I find cheating to be really common these days in games, and it's a damn shame. I understand some of the causes, as noted throughout the multiple colored replies in this thread (it's like Rainbow Road off of Mario Kart, I swear). Poor economic designs, unnecessary time sinks, itemization, etc etc. However, in my book, the cheaters are just as crumby as the game design. I frown upon the lame excuses cheaters seem to cling to these days too. "I work all day and can't play as much as I'd like", or "I've got a family, so I can't play consistently enough to keep up", or "I want to get ahead". All garbage empathy-seeking excuses in my book. If you work all day, perhaps you should consider shopping for a more casual game. You have a family? Spend that money on your kids, not in-game currency and items that don't even matter in the grand scheme of things. Want to get ahead? Play smart; research your game. Whether you pay for PL's or not, there's ALWAYS going to be the group of people who play for 14 hours a day, 7 days a week. You can't keep up with them; you're not supposed to be able to either. This is unfortunate too, because it's a problem faced by the gaming community, created by the gaming community. If people weren't using these services, the RMT market wouldn't exist. It's sad to me too; I remember when people played games because they liked them, and they were fun. Nowadays, it seems if people can't have the best gear, be the highest level, in the best guild, with the coolest PvP setup, and in the least amount of time, than the game's not worth playing. In my humble opinion, I blame this on the lack of community in modern MMO's. When people log in to a game, and encounter a friendly, social atmosphere, it's not as big of a deal to hit the level cap, or get the phat lewt, or whatever the hell else is entailed in the game. Nowadays, games focus on timesinks (making leveling tedious and monotonous), incessant gear grinding (WoW is a FANTASTIC example of gear grinding), and pandering to the junkie-elitists (the folks who only talk on Ventrilo to their guilds, and play allllll day). The only way to counter RMT, in my opinion, is to have devs actively engaging the player base in the game. Let's face it; players can spot the gold-sellers/bot-farmers/power-levelers faster than anyone else. I mean really, I know in FFXI for example, it was a joke when it came to spotting a guy. They'd be on for days at a time, farming, non-stop. Also, I believe T.O.S. need to be re-constructed. Most games and the CSR's only seem to ban folks if they're not at the keyboard. However, just because a person is running scripts/bots doesn't mean that they can't chime in to say "Hello!". Bans for suspicious activities or prolonged log-in times would be an effective counter-measure to RMT players and services, in my opinion.
Games don't have to require you to play 40 hours a week, and they don't have to reward power gamers for playing that much. Simply saying that anyone who can't play 40+ a week shouldn't play MMOs is a cop out. Games could be designed so that there wasn't much benefit to constantly grinding, that the gear difference between hardcore and normal play wasn't so vast, they could take out the timesinks. There is nothing horrible about stat caps, diminshing returns, or non-statistical advancement.
Some say without the timesinks people would finish and quit. I disagree. If a games content is enjoyable people will play. Developers can add new content at a reasonable pace, or rely on player driven content. I've never seen someone say they were going to stop playing frisbee cause they could only play 10 hours a week. People don't have to spend every waking moment doing one thing to enjoy it. Maybe there are a few power gamers out there whose joy is having things other people don't have, but they are a small part of any games population. Most people just want to keep up and play at their own pace.
That's not what I said at all.
My gripe is associated with the growing belief that casual gamers should be rewarded, while hardcore gamers should be punished; a sentiment which I disagree with on a personal level. As I said in my post, there's no way people should be keeping up with that 5% of gamers who cap out and clear the content in a month. They play the game more, they're going to have better loot than the average players. That's life.
I can't tell game developers to punish a player for having no social life outside of the game; if they choose to spend 40+ hours a week on a game, more power to the them. The point I was trying to make is that most of the people who engage in the use of RMT, in my opinion and through my person observations, are trying to keep up with the die-hard players. This is stupid. If people realized that 95% of the gaming community isn't out there to rush through the game, they'd probably be more content with their natural pace. But no, everyone wants to be as good as "that guy" with the 6 elite sets of gear, capped out skills, tons of gold, and everything else. They just don't want to work for it. Don't fault the guy with too much free time; fault the lazy asses out there who want instant gratification for little-to-no work.
I don't think it's so much an issue of companies trying to punish the "hardcore" players. The developers of any given game are obviously going to cater to the majority of their subscribers, who are inevitably going to be the casual gamers. What I think we'll see more of in the next few years are games that are unapologetically geared towards casual gamers. I think we're in the midst of a big paradigm shift in the industry as MMORPGs make the transition from being the realm of the cliche agoraphobic basement dwelling man-child to a genre that caters to a larger cross-section of gamers, perhaps achieving the level of popularity MMORPGs have in countries like Korea. I think LoTRO is a great example of this--a solid, well put together game that is immensely popular except for the hardcore players who are burning through the content in a month or two.
The thing I have come to realize though is that the so-called "Hardcore Player" that is supposedly grinding through levels at an alarming rate is usually the same guy that is running the bot program. They are always the first to show up on the message boards griping about content and bugs and because they spend most of their time NOT playing they have the time to be the vocal majority in a lot of places other than the games they are playing.
I have to go with Cymidai on this one when I say that it is stupid to try and keep up with that 5% and even more stupid because 4 of those percents are the self same people perpetuating cheating. Penalizing the 1% of truly hardcore players takes away the essence of the level based game.
The basement dwelling man-children are SUPPOSED to be the heroes of these worlds. And how did you know I was in the basement anyway? (jk)
The thing I have come to realize though is that the so-called "Hardcore Player" that is supposedly grinding through levels at an alarming rate is usually the same guy that is running the bot program. They are always the first to show up on the message boards griping about content and bugs and because they spend most of their time NOT playing they have the time to be the vocal majority in a lot of places other than the games they are playing. I have to go with Cymidai on this one when I say that it is stupid to try and keep up with that 5% and even more stupid because 4 of those percents are the self same people perpetuating cheating. Penalizing the 1% of truly hardcore players takes away the essence of the level based game. The basement dwelling man-children are SUPPOSED to be the heroes of these worlds. And how did you know I was in the basement anyway? (jk)
My last post was not a stab at the basement dwelling man-child. As an apartment dwelling man-child, I would never belittle my subterranean brethren in such a way. I do think that if someone sinks 40 plus hours into a game a week they should reap greater rewards than me if I can only get in a couple hours of game time a week. I just think gaming companies have their hands tied on this issue. If more than 75% of their audience are the casual players who see their "hardcore" guildies tripling their progress between each login, it's probably just a smarter business decision on their end to cater to the majority and risk having a disgruntled minority than the other way around and risk alienating the majority of your subscription base.
The thing I have come to realize though is that the so-called "Hardcore Player" that is supposedly grinding through levels at an alarming rate is usually the same guy that is running the bot program. They are always the first to show up on the message boards griping about content and bugs and because they spend most of their time NOT playing they have the time to be the vocal majority in a lot of places other than the games they are playing. I have to go with Cymidai on this one when I say that it is stupid to try and keep up with that 5% and even more stupid because 4 of those percents are the self same people perpetuating cheating. Penalizing the 1% of truly hardcore players takes away the essence of the level based game. The basement dwelling man-children are SUPPOSED to be the heroes of these worlds. And how did you know I was in the basement anyway? (jk)
My last post was not a stab at the basement dwelling man-child. As an apartment dwelling man-child, I would never belittle my subterranean brethren in such a way. I do think that if someone sinks 40 plus hours into a game a week they should reap greater rewards than me if I can only get in a couple hours of game time a week. I just think gaming companies have their hands tied on this issue. If more than 75% of their audience are the casual players who see their "hardcore" guildies tripling their progress between each login, it's probably just a smarter business decision on their end to cater to the majority and risk having a disgruntled minority than the other way around and risk alienating the majority of your subscription base.
I can agree with that then. And no offense taken I only hope that they can figure out which portion of their player base is the majority as cheaters are known to hold and maintain several accounts at a time and are steadily building up representation as yet another symbiotic sub-culture. With new people doing it or looking for ways to do it every day I worry that the trend might end up leaning more towards catering to the cheater, as a lot of the free MMO's have done, instead of the person or people playing the game as designed. It's coming down to a loyalty thing in my mind. Are the developers going to be loyal to the people who believe in what they are doing or are they going to go for the easy money and give in to those who will leave them the moment there are no more loyal players around to bilk?
We all have seen them (developers) make worse decisions in the past.
Because most MMOs have massive design flaws, and people like to shortcut around them. If you design an MMO that is fun all the time, nobody will want to skip out on the fun.
I agree that many of the problems are comming from the game design, but not all. Some of them are comming from players, because they needs are different..
Originally posted by Supernerd The point is to be better than other players.That's the point of all mmorpgs.
For some players, but for most players it's not. Fun is the main goal of the games and different players gets they fun many different ways.
Originally posted by Cymdai
I find cheating to be really common these days in games, and it's a damn shame.
Yes, it's too bad. I think it's because time when MMORPG where new, most players did find them more fun to play, because so much new stuff to learn. Now days many MMORPG's are just copy of some other MMORPG what we allready have, so there isn't so much learning required anymore and people get bored faster.
My gripe is associated with the growing belief that casual gamers should be rewarded, while hardcore gamers should be punished; a sentiment which I disagree with on a personal level. As I said in my post, there's no way people should be keeping up with that 5% of gamers who cap out and clear the content in a month. They play the game more, they're going to have better loot than the average players. That's life. I can't tell game developers to punish a player for having no social life outside of the game; if they choose to spend 40+ hours a week on a game, more power to the them. The point I was trying to make is that most of the people who engage in the use of RMT, in my opinion and through my person observations, are trying to keep up with the die-hard players. This is stupid. If people realized that 95% of the gaming community isn't out there to rush through the game, they'd probably be more content with their natural pace. But no, everyone wants to be as good as "that guy" with the 6 elite sets of gear, capped out skills, tons of gold, and everything else. They just don't want to work for it. Don't fault the guy with too much free time; fault the lazy asses out there who want instant gratification for little-to-no work.
I'm going to disagree. You don't have to reward people that want to play 60 hours a week with ever widening statisticals gaps with the rest of the playerbase. That isn't "life", it is merely an opinion of yours. Game designers have many other options.
1) Ignore power gamers. Don't offer them constant gear upgrades. Will they quite your game, possibly. But then again a lot of them might not. If you make it so the average person can get max stats playing 10-20 hours a week then maybe they will play the game 10-20 hours a week. Some will quit because they can't have better stuff then others, but even among hardcores that is a minority. Some just play that much because they enjoy playing that much, not because of a need to be better then others. Is it really worth alienating 99% of your player base for the 1% whose only joy in life is having better stuff then everyone else.
If game content is in and of itself fun, then people will play it for it's own sake, not because of carrot on a stick. Think of how many games you don't play 40 hours a week, you still enjoyed them right.
2) Offer non-statistical advancement. Perhaps you could over new armor sets that looked really cool and showed people how good you were, but didn't offer huge statistical advantages. You could have ladders and leader boards for bragging rights only. There are a lot of options here.
if games had full looting, permadeath, and 100% open PVP then botters / farmers would get culled out. Why? Because expendable characters are way less valuable. but if you dont want all these things then just shut up because current MMOs all cultivate farmers. we're -ALL- Farmers! but I guess I can see how an illegal farmer harms the economy more then the hardcore players maybe. maybe.
edit- now cheating is another issue. I'm with coldsun and green on that
My gripe is associated with the growing belief that casual gamers should be rewarded, while hardcore gamers should be punished; a sentiment which I disagree with on a personal level. As I said in my post, there's no way people should be keeping up with that 5% of gamers who cap out and clear the content in a month. They play the game more, they're going to have better loot than the average players. That's life. I can't tell game developers to punish a player for having no social life outside of the game; if they choose to spend 40+ hours a week on a game, more power to the them. The point I was trying to make is that most of the people who engage in the use of RMT, in my opinion and through my person observations, are trying to keep up with the die-hard players. This is stupid. If people realized that 95% of the gaming community isn't out there to rush through the game, they'd probably be more content with their natural pace. But no, everyone wants to be as good as "that guy" with the 6 elite sets of gear, capped out skills, tons of gold, and everything else. They just don't want to work for it. Don't fault the guy with too much free time; fault the lazy asses out there who want instant gratification for little-to-no work.
I'm going to disagree. You don't have to reward people that want to play 60 hours a week with ever widening statisticals gaps with the rest of the playerbase. That isn't "life", it is merely an opinion of yours. Game designers have many other options.
1) Ignore power gamers. Don't offer them constant gear upgrades. Will they quite your game, possibly. But then again a lot of them might not. If you make it so the average person can get max stats playing 10-20 hours a week then maybe they will play the game 10-20 hours a week. Some will quit because they can't have better stuff then others, but even among hardcores that is a minority. Some just play that much because they enjoy playing that much, not because of a need to be better then others. Is it really worth alienating 99% of your player base for the 1% whose only joy in life is having better stuff then everyone else.
If game content is in and of itself fun, then people will play it for it's own sake, not because of carrot on a stick. Think of how many games you don't play 40 hours a week, you still enjoyed them right.
2) Offer non-statistical advancement. Perhaps you could over new armor sets that looked really cool and showed people how good you were, but didn't offer huge statistical advantages. You could have ladders and leader boards for bragging rights only. There are a lot of options here.
Originally posted by JMoney95 Did it ever occur to you that people enjoy OTHER parts of the game, not the farming? Then don't farm. Noone is forcing anyone to farm. You don't NEED anything in these games. For that matter, you don't even NEED to play the game at all. People WANT better stuff. People WANT to have better characters. Either do it for yourself, or don't, period. It's that easy. If "people" have to have the better character, or stuff, to enjoy the game, and you can't get it for yourself, then quit, don't play. Why is this such a hard concept? I wish I was a famous quarterback. Throwing touchdowns, and running for the winning score would be fun and exciting to me. BUT GUESS WHAT, I have to get off my fat ass and train, and exercise, get on a healthy regulated diet, and gain the potential to throw touchdowns, and run for the winning score. I LOVE hitting home runs off a pitcher and watching that ball fly over the fence. It is SO MUCH FUN to drive that racecar over the finish line, and I get such a rush when I dunk that basketball on a fast break. I just hate the exercise, and dieting, and training, it is so boring and repetitive. WELL, DUH!!! Seems it didnt. Oh, it occurred to me, but I have this thing a lot of people seem to be missing lately. COMMON SENSE. How does a guy farming for 10 hours for money not ruin the game, but someone buying money from someone who farmed for 10 hours ruin it? Both had someone farm for 10 hours, both are using 10 hours worth of money. The impact on the game = 0. Ok, get ready, it's a very diffiult concept to understand, so put down the reefer, and the beer, and really concentrate as hard as you can, but here it comes: H.E. D.O.E.S.N.'.T. Did I lose you, you ok, you feint, you gonna be alright? The casual player is NOT going to farm for 10, or X, hours for money in the game. He's either going to stay with what he can afford and be happy with that, or quit. Simple as that. Every game developer studies, I know another hard concept, how much of the player base of a game will be casual, and how many will be hardcore. If, let's say just for arguments sake, 5% of the players are hardcore and farm, blow through content, and play an unusual amount of hours, than that is something they can plan for, and control with in-game mechanics. They know, with the programming they have in place, that they can allow up to X% of the player base to excel in their play ability timewise. We are creatures of habit, and most players are pretty consistent with playtime. Sure, there's vacations, and traveling, and things that happen in life, but you would be VERY surprised how predictable people are. Now, here's the gold seller. The gold seller HAS to provide a product to a consumer, the gold buyer, to stay in business, alive, or whatever. This is an OUTSIDE variable. You cannot, in any way possible, control (except for in game programs, scripts and bans, which are currently very ineffective) how much of your player base is "gold seller", is going to be "gold seller", or will suddenly become "gold seller", as well as, how much of you player base is "gold buyer", is going to be "gold buyer", or will suddenly become "gold buyer". It is a programming nightmare. Why do you think it is SO incredibly important to game companies. Some would even rather just shut down a MMO entirely than deal with it. That's hundreds of man hours spent in programming, monitoring, and enforcing, for something that doesn't even have to exist. It's like me having to repair my window on my car because some pos thief wanted to "check out" the contents of my car for valuables. Now I'm out $300 for nothing, not to mention the $200+ for an alarm system. If I want a working, comfortable car (game), then I have to spend money needlessly. The only thing that DOES ruin a game, is monopolizing ala FFXI last year. That screws up the economy, but normal players do that too.
"Granted thinking for yourself could be considered a timesink of shorter or longer duration depending on how smart..or how dumb you are."
My gripe is associated with the growing belief that casual gamers should be rewarded, while hardcore gamers should be punished; a sentiment which I disagree with on a personal level. As I said in my post, there's no way people should be keeping up with that 5% of gamers who cap out and clear the content in a month. They play the game more, they're going to have better loot than the average players. That's life. I can't tell game developers to punish a player for having no social life outside of the game; if they choose to spend 40+ hours a week on a game, more power to the them. The point I was trying to make is that most of the people who engage in the use of RMT, in my opinion and through my person observations, are trying to keep up with the die-hard players. This is stupid. If people realized that 95% of the gaming community isn't out there to rush through the game, they'd probably be more content with their natural pace. But no, everyone wants to be as good as "that guy" with the 6 elite sets of gear, capped out skills, tons of gold, and everything else. They just don't want to work for it. Don't fault the guy with too much free time; fault the lazy asses out there who want instant gratification for little-to-no work.
I'm going to disagree. You don't have to reward people that want to play 60 hours a week with ever widening statisticals gaps with the rest of the playerbase. That isn't "life", it is merely an opinion of yours. Game designers have many other options.
1) Ignore power gamers. Don't offer them constant gear upgrades. Will they quite your game, possibly. But then again a lot of them might not. If you make it so the average person can get max stats playing 10-20 hours a week then maybe they will play the game 10-20 hours a week. Some will quit because they can't have better stuff then others, but even among hardcores that is a minority. Some just play that much because they enjoy playing that much, not because of a need to be better then others. Is it really worth alienating 99% of your player base for the 1% whose only joy in life is having better stuff then everyone else.
If game content is in and of itself fun, then people will play it for it's own sake, not because of carrot on a stick. Think of how many games you don't play 40 hours a week, you still enjoyed them right.
2) Offer non-statistical advancement. Perhaps you could over new armor sets that looked really cool and showed people how good you were, but didn't offer huge statistical advantages. You could have ladders and leader boards for bragging rights only. There are a lot of options here.
I can see what you're saying here, and to an extent i agree.
As I said in my previous post, appealing to the 5% of game-grinders is foolish. However, I don't think Alienating them is the answer either. Hardcore gamers have their uses. (I'm not one, though I was in my younger days)
These guys plow through content, and will usually be the first ones to really test-drive game balance, end-game dungeons and content, and the economy. In terms of PvP, they're usually very helpful, as they'll have all their skills expendable, and can help devs notice gameplay elements that essentially need tweaking. Also, by letting them tear through the game, they can find possible bugs/glitches in quests far enough in advance that devs will have the chance to correct them before the majority of the player base gets there. So while I agree that they don't need new gear sets twice a month, and a new end-game boss every other month, it'd be foolish to ignore them.
In terms of non-statistical advancement, I don't believe that it would really solve many problems. What would you recommend? Competition and community, in my opinion, are the two life elements of the MMORPG genre; if you remove/neglect one of them, what will happen to the game. A ladder mode and a leader board may not offer a statistical advantage, but how does that not appeal to the 60 hour a week players? Take WoW's battle grounds for instance. There's a minimal bonus to being good, but a person who grinds out 60 hours a week can still rise to the top. There are skill-based approaches such as Guild Wars, but even in games like Guild Wars, the right loot can still sway the battle. Usually the person who plays more will have better loot.
While I don't believe it's impossible to make a game the plays to everyone, I just don't think that most devs are willing to sacrifice that imaginary 5% in the hopes that everyone else will stay. As such, I think they'll continue to shoot for the 100%, even if it's not always successful.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
I can see what you're saying here, and to an extent i agree.
As I said in my previous post, appealing to the 5% of game-grinders is foolish. However, I don't think Alienating them is the answer either. Hardcore gamers have their uses. (I'm not one, though I was in my younger days)
These guys plow through content, and will usually be the first ones to really test-drive game balance, end-game dungeons and content, and the economy. In terms of PvP, they're usually very helpful, as they'll have all their skills expendable, and can help devs notice gameplay elements that essentially need tweaking. Also, by letting them tear through the game, they can find possible bugs/glitches in quests far enough in advance that devs will have the chance to correct them before the majority of the player base gets there. So while I agree that they don't need new gear sets twice a month, and a new end-game boss every other month, it'd be foolish to ignore them.
In terms of non-statistical advancement, I don't believe that it would really solve many problems. What would you recommend? Competition and community, in my opinion, are the two life elements of the MMORPG genre; if you remove/neglect one of them, what will happen to the game. A ladder mode and a leader board may not offer a statistical advantage, but how does that not appeal to the 60 hour a week players? Take WoW's battle grounds for instance. There's a minimal bonus to being good, but a person who grinds out 60 hours a week can still rise to the top. There are skill-based approaches such as Guild Wars, but even in games like Guild Wars, the right loot can still sway the battle. Usually the person who plays more will have better loot.
While I don't believe it's impossible to make a game the plays to everyone, I just don't think that most devs are willing to sacrifice that imaginary 5% in the hopes that everyone else will stay. As such, I think they'll continue to shoot for the 100%, even if it's not always successful.
In Warcraft III I didn't play 40 hours a week, but I was still in the top 10 on US East. Ladders that are based on things like win ratios, rating systems in controlled contests, etc. are skill based measures rather then time based metrics. Moreover, when your really good you get a reputation on your server, something people take pride in.
People already work for non-statistical advancement. How many hours have you seen people grind for a pet or a trinket or a gimmick. People want status markers, those markers don't need to make your character mathematically stronger. I think a lot of people would work towards a set of armor that offered little statistical advantage (less then 10%), but was unique and identified them as a strong individual to be feared/respected.
I haven't played DAOC, but I hear they had a stat cap in that game you couldn't go beyond. It's been like six years, and people still play that game. Why?
Actually this is not true. Just like so many others you are making assumptions without actual proof. Maybe you should follow your own advice... You are saying that someone who has to spend $50 US on 100 gold would be more prone to waste it than someone who farmed it. This is a false statement. That 100 gold now has a real dollar cost for the buyer and he will have to pay more in the future to get it back. They are actually LESS likely to bloat the economy as they are much more frugal with their gold. The people who power game jack the economy. Those people who spend 6 - 12 hours a day spend insane amounts of in game cash on items to tweek themselves just that fraction more. They also have the time to jack the prices and wait for the desperate buyer in auction houses. Namely, people that sell gold to gold BUYERS. Those people that spend several hours a day making gold to SELL to gold buyers. That is the whole point and somehow you missed it. Yes, there are power gamers that spend lots of time making gold in game, but that percentage, probably less than 5% of the entire population is already coded for and realized by game developers. You're always going to have extreme players, that's natural. What is NOT natural is to have several players that gain gold by INHUMAN means that DO jack the economy and sell the gold to cheaters that buy it and don't get it for themselves, or do without. This is an uncontrollabe variable that cannot be coded for and destroys in game mechanics developed for normal play. If anything farmers and gold buyers bring down the cost of items in the economy as they want fast sales. Wrong again, read previous posts as this has been covered extensively. I have never farmed or bought gold, but I see no issue with either. I see game addiction as a much more important topic for discussion as most people who rant about this stuff do have an addiction and need help. Not really sure what you're trying to say, but if you're saying that complaining about someone cheating in a game you play affects you, you have EVERY right in the world to compain about it. Those that cheat and resort to underhanded measures to keep up in a video game need counseling, and probably their kids too, god forbid they have any.
Explain to me the mechanics that devs put in place to account for the power gamers? It is far more then 5%... from current trends it would be closer to 20 - 30%.
Power gamers are what drives the gold economy in any game... lets face it if the casual gamer could spend the time to catch up with the people that have no lives, there would be no need to buy gold. You people can dance around the power gamer issue as most of the complainers are power gamers. It does not change the fact that most major MMOs out there have no way to deal with the rat race.
A good example of this is WoW, the most popular MMO to date. Prices in the auction house were pretty reasonable the first year... then BGs were patched in. More importantly level restricted BGs were brought in. This created a HUGE influx of twinked characters dominating the BGs. These players are not casual, they were the power gamers with 5+ lv 60 characters who had thousands of gold to pump into the auction house on low end items. Within a month you saw lv 20 items going for about 1000% what they were originally worth. Now fast forward to Blizzard's expansion, epic flight mounts and new super uber gear drops. It was the power gamers that had their mounts first not casual gamers buying money. It was the gamers sprinting to lv 70 that created huge inflation of BC items on the auction house. Power crafters that sucked the AH dry of any BC resources. Last it is the power gamers that sat at 70 for a week then went on rampages killing 60 - 65s on a massive scale making the initial lands and content less then fun to play in.
So where do the farmers and the sellers figure into what happened in WoW? Are you really going to say all of that was caused by gold sellers? The real truth is that it has been and always will be the power gamers that ruin MMOs for the rest of the community.
I love how the staff writer advocated better communities to stop these issues. The reason so many MMO communities suck is because the best guilds and the majority of the players feel they need to be in the 24/7 rat race to be a factor in the game. Ask yourself the last time you saw a casual gamer team win any arena? What were some of the biggest complaints about BGs in DAoC and WoW, power groups farming the PuGs.
I applaud you people for trying to make the game better. You just need better direction. Remove the power gamer mentality from these games and you will fix your gold farmer and exploiter issues.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
Because most MMOs have massive design flaws, and people like to shortcut around them. If you design an MMO that is fun all the time, nobody will want to skip out on the fun.
I happen to think that WoW's level grind is one of the most enjoyable MMORPG grinds I've played. I believe more people bot in WoW to either make real money or because they have played the level experience once and don't want to put in the time to learn another class.
So basically people bot because it is boring after one or two runs. That is still bad practice.
The fact that you think it is enjoyable doesn't really matter.
As long as an MMO game gives an advantage to people who have more time to play, then you will have people purchasing gold, levels, etc to even the playing field.
I hear a lot of, I would rather be lower level and know I earned it from players with high level characters and lots of time. Other people want to maximize their investment in the video game and be able to experience all of the content. So if they do not have the time to invest in the game, they are willing to pay for the experience.
MMO economies are ruined by one thing and one thing only and that is MMO inflation. Take World of Warcraft for example. A legit player who is a raider and plays 6-10 hours per day has a ton of extra gold. He has nothing to spend it on, so when he makes his alt to play in the BGs he twinks that alt completely. He is willing to spend 400g on a level 19 item, etc etc. A person who bought their gold is not doing that. They spent RL money on it and most of the time isn't willing to spend it foolishly. So the Economy is almost always ruined by the same "hardcore" players who are claiming that RL money being used cheapens their accomplishments.
I hope for a game to come out that does away with that massive Haves and Have Not syndrome. Of course then the same people will be complaining about how they aren't uber enough. They are the same people that complain about Solo/casual players wanting single person long quests to get epics. Because some how they feel entitled to have better stuff because they have no life outside of the video game. (and yes if you play more then 1-2 hours per day, you have no life outside of the video game).
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
I have bought gold online on several occasions and I justify it by the following:
In the case of Guild Wars I got scammed* bigtime - the financial blow was devastating. I ended up buying the equal amount online.
In the case of World of Warcraft I gave away all my money on a previous account to my buddy (who, of course, quit just after that), finding that re-opening his account (to get the amount back on my new account) would cost more than just buying the amount of gold online, I chose the latter.
I bear no shame.
*If you find buying gold as cheating then scammers should be put to death IRL. Yes, I seriously mean that. If I got the opportunity to kick someone's a** IRL because of some snot-face seriously scamming me in-game then I would. Call it PvP IRL with consequences.
Anyways, I've had a decent amount of beers and drinks tonight, so have a nice one!
I don't think cheating or buying gold/gear in a game makes any sense. You're supposed to be playing the game, right? If you just want to PvP then why play an MMORPG that requires so much time invested before you can actually get to the PvP? Anyways, I tend to enjoy the games as I'm leveling up without any hurry to reach max level or get the best gears. Why not stop and take a look around to see the scenery that the developers put so much effort into?
You argument is poor against buying gold OP. Just because the game may die does not mean that you do not enjoy it while it's alive. If this was the case what would be the purpose of living if unless you believe your immortal? Buying gold is a cheap move I agree. However, if someone wants to invest more money into their character to obtain their desired results then so be it. It's their money to do as they please. It can throw off the economy of an MMO, however, if the developers have enough money sinks in the game to compensate for this then it shouldn't be a problem. It's the same as when someone wants to buy a rare item on ebay or something from a game. I see your point, but I don't think you have much of an argument with your points.
I dont think powerleveling services, or gold services are bad at all. When you work a full time job, you want to come home and have something to enjoy. I personally dont feel like running the same dungeon over and over again to gain levels or get gold/items. If i got to a point where i couldnt advance in game because i didnt have the items/gold and getting them would require hours upon hours of farming: Gold buying FTW.
What is the point of botting, buying gold, and cheating the game in general? The money is fake, the character is fake, the game will die (they all do eventually in some form). So then what is the purpose of cheating it, even if only for the time you are playing, to achieve equal or higher levels than the pure player?
Because people are stupid. Others are entitlement bitches who want everything handed to them. End of discussion.
I don't have a particular issue with either botting or gold buying.
I see the grind as a cyncical attempt by the games producers to keep people paying subscriptions for longer. A timesink. I object to this far more than I object to people trying to work around it.
Grinding adds no extra enjoyment to my game, and I don't think I am a better player than someone who bought their gold online. I don't feel time spent clicking a mouse on skeleton, endlessly night after night is an achievement to feel proud about. Or that my ability to do so, differentiates me from the rest.
I don't feel cheated when I meet someone higher level than me or with superior in game equipment. Neither do I care how difficult it was for them to get it.
I'm not a big PvP player (at least not in MMORPG's), I can understand how players might feel limited if their financially better off competitors all outclassed them no matter what they did in game. (Although I also understand if those people with limited free time were to feel the same about "hardcore" players).
Again I feel that a well designed game can go a long way to mitigating that by making the best equipment Bind on Pick up or whatever. And once again I have yet to play in a game where this has ever made a discernable difference.
For PvP I prefer games that offer a balanced enviroment for competiton anyway. Chess or an FPS, an RTS. Something where spending more of your free time online, or (as in Eve-online) having paid more subscription fee's, hasn't given you a hard coded advantage. I think people who get upset about an uneven playing field are not playing the right kind of games to start with. If that's what you are looking for I suggest CounterStrike or Guild Wars, MMORPG's don't really lend themselves to that kind of gaming experience.
Essentially I think the PvP whiners have no one but themselves to blame. It's not the fault of the botter or Real Money Trader that you are unhappy, it's that you have unrealistic expectations of the genre. You are playing a game that does not cater well for the type of competiton you seek.
I think botting and gold buying is an obvious workaround for deficiencies in game design.
Perhaps I would feel different about the botting had I played a game in which I was unable to farm up my resources because there was a queue of bots permanently camping all the spawns, but since I have never seen anything even remotely approaching this in any of the MMO's I've played, I personally find the issue over-rated.
If I did find this, I'd just move on to the next game. Something more recently produced where game design has evolved a little more.
Gold buying on the other hand, I think is generally a good thing. I have a lot more free time than my friends, I tend to outlevel them almost instantly, I usually give them all my gold to help them keep up as it is. If they would be willing to buy it, all the better. If they could stay contemporay with me by running a bot while they are at work, that would make my games with them more enjoyable when they return.
There are some games (like City of Heroes) that have buddy systems, making playing with your friends much easier for people of differing levels. Once again, many issues can be alleviated by superior game design.
I think the major difference here is that I tend to play with real life friends. My relationship with them is not defined by my in game score. It does not affect my status with them in anyway. If they want to be powerlevelled or boosted or buy gold or gain levels while they are at work, I couldn't care less. Good luck to them.
As for ruining the in game economy, people who can't afford to buy game money, or don't go to work all day, aren't the people I most expect to have a good grasp of economics. The argument is weak and the arguers not best educated to give opinion.
The guy above me pretty much nailed it on the head IMO...
Because some people make enough money to do whatever they want. So instead of spending 9+ hours a day leveling or collecting gear they spend time with their friends, GF, family or just do whatever they want because they can afford to do so. Can you really blame them?
What is the point of botting, buying gold, and cheating the game in general? The money is fake, the character is fake, the game will die (they all do eventually in some form). So then what is the purpose of cheating it, even if only for the time you are playing, to achieve equal or higher levels than the pure player?
Bad game design forces players to seek whatever means to a competitive edge.
Games overly dependant on gear and level that put players into a competitive environment will always have these problems. Some will have the time to get the best gear and highest levels to have the most competitive edge, others will simply pay for someone else to do it for them.
The solution is to minimize the impact of gear and level while awarding skill, tactics, and experience.
I think from the very beginning of MMOs it was a struggle to find out how to do PVP, even as early as UO and EQ1 PVP was a big issue. No one has gotten it right yet. Why?
Competition is only designed for players on an even playing field. Look at all sports in history, even teams, rules, penalties, etc. It's all about skill, tactics, and experience. Everything else is made equal by the rules. It's very hard to do that in a MMORPG because MMOs are online RPGs, obviously, and RPGs have always been about stats and numbers and gear and level.
No one has yet found a way to make a true mmoRPG that doesn't fall into these trappings. The closest we see are games that few consider MMORPGS, like Guild Wars, Fury, etc.
MMORPGs, like life, are unfair. That's why we call sports "games" because they are meant to be fair, even matches. MMORPGs aren't as much games as they are simulations, at least originally, though obviously the trend is changing.
However they still face the trappings of RPGs, and probably always will.
Comments
Games don't have to require you to play 40 hours a week, and they don't have to reward power gamers for playing that much. Simply saying that anyone who can't play 40+ a week shouldn't play MMOs is a cop out. Games could be designed so that there wasn't much benefit to constantly grinding, that the gear difference between hardcore and normal play wasn't so vast, they could take out the timesinks. There is nothing horrible about stat caps, diminshing returns, or non-statistical advancement.
Some say without the timesinks people would finish and quit. I disagree. If a games content is enjoyable people will play. Developers can add new content at a reasonable pace, or rely on player driven content. I've never seen someone say they were going to stop playing frisbee cause they could only play 10 hours a week. People don't have to spend every waking moment doing one thing to enjoy it. Maybe there are a few power gamers out there whose joy is having things other people don't have, but they are a small part of any games population. Most people just want to keep up and play at their own pace.
That's not what I said at all.My gripe is associated with the growing belief that casual gamers should be rewarded, while hardcore gamers should be punished; a sentiment which I disagree with on a personal level. As I said in my post, there's no way people should be keeping up with that 5% of gamers who cap out and clear the content in a month. They play the game more, they're going to have better loot than the average players. That's life.
I can't tell game developers to punish a player for having no social life outside of the game; if they choose to spend 40+ hours a week on a game, more power to the them. The point I was trying to make is that most of the people who engage in the use of RMT, in my opinion and through my person observations, are trying to keep up with the die-hard players. This is stupid. If people realized that 95% of the gaming community isn't out there to rush through the game, they'd probably be more content with their natural pace. But no, everyone wants to be as good as "that guy" with the 6 elite sets of gear, capped out skills, tons of gold, and everything else. They just don't want to work for it. Don't fault the guy with too much free time; fault the lazy asses out there who want instant gratification for little-to-no work.
I don't think it's so much an issue of companies trying to punish the "hardcore" players. The developers of any given game are obviously going to cater to the majority of their subscribers, who are inevitably going to be the casual gamers. What I think we'll see more of in the next few years are games that are unapologetically geared towards casual gamers. I think we're in the midst of a big paradigm shift in the industry as MMORPGs make the transition from being the realm of the cliche agoraphobic basement dwelling man-child to a genre that caters to a larger cross-section of gamers, perhaps achieving the level of popularity MMORPGs have in countries like Korea. I think LoTRO is a great example of this--a solid, well put together game that is immensely popular except for the hardcore players who are burning through the content in a month or two.
The thing I have come to realize though is that the so-called "Hardcore Player" that is supposedly grinding through levels at an alarming rate is usually the same guy that is running the bot program. They are always the first to show up on the message boards griping about content and bugs and because they spend most of their time NOT playing they have the time to be the vocal majority in a lot of places other than the games they are playing.
I have to go with Cymidai on this one when I say that it is stupid to try and keep up with that 5% and even more stupid because 4 of those percents are the self same people perpetuating cheating. Penalizing the 1% of truly hardcore players takes away the essence of the level based game.
The basement dwelling man-children are SUPPOSED to be the heroes of these worlds. And how did you know I was in the basement anyway? (jk)
I can agree with that then. And no offense taken
We all have seen them (developers) make worse decisions in the past.
I agree that many of the problems are comming from the game design, but not all. Some of them are comming from players, because they needs are different..
For some players, but for most players it's not. Fun is the main goal of the games and different players gets they fun many different ways.
Yes, it's too bad. I think it's because time when MMORPG where new, most players did find them more fun to play, because so much new stuff to learn. Now days many MMORPG's are just copy of some other MMORPG what we allready have, so there isn't so much learning required anymore and people get bored faster.
MMORPG.COM has worst forum editor ever exists
I'm going to disagree. You don't have to reward people that want to play 60 hours a week with ever widening statisticals gaps with the rest of the playerbase. That isn't "life", it is merely an opinion of yours. Game designers have many other options.
1) Ignore power gamers. Don't offer them constant gear upgrades. Will they quite your game, possibly. But then again a lot of them might not. If you make it so the average person can get max stats playing 10-20 hours a week then maybe they will play the game 10-20 hours a week. Some will quit because they can't have better stuff then others, but even among hardcores that is a minority. Some just play that much because they enjoy playing that much, not because of a need to be better then others. Is it really worth alienating 99% of your player base for the 1% whose only joy in life is having better stuff then everyone else.
If game content is in and of itself fun, then people will play it for it's own sake, not because of carrot on a stick. Think of how many games you don't play 40 hours a week, you still enjoyed them right.
2) Offer non-statistical advancement. Perhaps you could over new armor sets that looked really cool and showed people how good you were, but didn't offer huge statistical advantages. You could have ladders and leader boards for bragging rights only. There are a lot of options here.
if games had full looting, permadeath, and 100% open PVP then botters / farmers would get culled out. Why? Because expendable characters are way less valuable. but if you dont want all these things then just shut up because current MMOs all cultivate farmers. we're -ALL- Farmers! but I guess I can see how an illegal farmer harms the economy more then the hardcore players maybe. maybe.
edit- now cheating is another issue. I'm with coldsun and green on that
I'm going to disagree. You don't have to reward people that want to play 60 hours a week with ever widening statisticals gaps with the rest of the playerbase. That isn't "life", it is merely an opinion of yours. Game designers have many other options.
1) Ignore power gamers. Don't offer them constant gear upgrades. Will they quite your game, possibly. But then again a lot of them might not. If you make it so the average person can get max stats playing 10-20 hours a week then maybe they will play the game 10-20 hours a week. Some will quit because they can't have better stuff then others, but even among hardcores that is a minority. Some just play that much because they enjoy playing that much, not because of a need to be better then others. Is it really worth alienating 99% of your player base for the 1% whose only joy in life is having better stuff then everyone else.
If game content is in and of itself fun, then people will play it for it's own sake, not because of carrot on a stick. Think of how many games you don't play 40 hours a week, you still enjoyed them right.
2) Offer non-statistical advancement. Perhaps you could over new armor sets that looked really cool and showed people how good you were, but didn't offer huge statistical advantages. You could have ladders and leader boards for bragging rights only. There are a lot of options here.
I wish the game devs saw things this way!!!!
"Granted thinking for yourself could be considered a timesink of shorter or longer duration depending on how smart..or how dumb you are."
I'm going to disagree. You don't have to reward people that want to play 60 hours a week with ever widening statisticals gaps with the rest of the playerbase. That isn't "life", it is merely an opinion of yours. Game designers have many other options.
1) Ignore power gamers. Don't offer them constant gear upgrades. Will they quite your game, possibly. But then again a lot of them might not. If you make it so the average person can get max stats playing 10-20 hours a week then maybe they will play the game 10-20 hours a week. Some will quit because they can't have better stuff then others, but even among hardcores that is a minority. Some just play that much because they enjoy playing that much, not because of a need to be better then others. Is it really worth alienating 99% of your player base for the 1% whose only joy in life is having better stuff then everyone else.
If game content is in and of itself fun, then people will play it for it's own sake, not because of carrot on a stick. Think of how many games you don't play 40 hours a week, you still enjoyed them right.
2) Offer non-statistical advancement. Perhaps you could over new armor sets that looked really cool and showed people how good you were, but didn't offer huge statistical advantages. You could have ladders and leader boards for bragging rights only. There are a lot of options here.
I can see what you're saying here, and to an extent i agree.As I said in my previous post, appealing to the 5% of game-grinders is foolish. However, I don't think Alienating them is the answer either. Hardcore gamers have their uses. (I'm not one, though I was in my younger days)
These guys plow through content, and will usually be the first ones to really test-drive game balance, end-game dungeons and content, and the economy. In terms of PvP, they're usually very helpful, as they'll have all their skills expendable, and can help devs notice gameplay elements that essentially need tweaking. Also, by letting them tear through the game, they can find possible bugs/glitches in quests far enough in advance that devs will have the chance to correct them before the majority of the player base gets there. So while I agree that they don't need new gear sets twice a month, and a new end-game boss every other month, it'd be foolish to ignore them.
In terms of non-statistical advancement, I don't believe that it would really solve many problems. What would you recommend? Competition and community, in my opinion, are the two life elements of the MMORPG genre; if you remove/neglect one of them, what will happen to the game. A ladder mode and a leader board may not offer a statistical advantage, but how does that not appeal to the 60 hour a week players? Take WoW's battle grounds for instance. There's a minimal bonus to being good, but a person who grinds out 60 hours a week can still rise to the top. There are skill-based approaches such as Guild Wars, but even in games like Guild Wars, the right loot can still sway the battle. Usually the person who plays more will have better loot.
While I don't believe it's impossible to make a game the plays to everyone, I just don't think that most devs are willing to sacrifice that imaginary 5% in the hopes that everyone else will stay. As such, I think they'll continue to shoot for the 100%, even if it's not always successful.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
I can see what you're saying here, and to an extent i agree.As I said in my previous post, appealing to the 5% of game-grinders is foolish. However, I don't think Alienating them is the answer either. Hardcore gamers have their uses. (I'm not one, though I was in my younger days)
These guys plow through content, and will usually be the first ones to really test-drive game balance, end-game dungeons and content, and the economy. In terms of PvP, they're usually very helpful, as they'll have all their skills expendable, and can help devs notice gameplay elements that essentially need tweaking. Also, by letting them tear through the game, they can find possible bugs/glitches in quests far enough in advance that devs will have the chance to correct them before the majority of the player base gets there. So while I agree that they don't need new gear sets twice a month, and a new end-game boss every other month, it'd be foolish to ignore them.
In terms of non-statistical advancement, I don't believe that it would really solve many problems. What would you recommend? Competition and community, in my opinion, are the two life elements of the MMORPG genre; if you remove/neglect one of them, what will happen to the game. A ladder mode and a leader board may not offer a statistical advantage, but how does that not appeal to the 60 hour a week players? Take WoW's battle grounds for instance. There's a minimal bonus to being good, but a person who grinds out 60 hours a week can still rise to the top. There are skill-based approaches such as Guild Wars, but even in games like Guild Wars, the right loot can still sway the battle. Usually the person who plays more will have better loot.
While I don't believe it's impossible to make a game the plays to everyone, I just don't think that most devs are willing to sacrifice that imaginary 5% in the hopes that everyone else will stay. As such, I think they'll continue to shoot for the 100%, even if it's not always successful.
In Warcraft III I didn't play 40 hours a week, but I was still in the top 10 on US East. Ladders that are based on things like win ratios, rating systems in controlled contests, etc. are skill based measures rather then time based metrics. Moreover, when your really good you get a reputation on your server, something people take pride in.
People already work for non-statistical advancement. How many hours have you seen people grind for a pet or a trinket or a gimmick. People want status markers, those markers don't need to make your character mathematically stronger. I think a lot of people would work towards a set of armor that offered little statistical advantage (less then 10%), but was unique and identified them as a strong individual to be feared/respected.
I haven't played DAOC, but I hear they had a stat cap in that game you couldn't go beyond. It's been like six years, and people still play that game. Why?
Explain to me the mechanics that devs put in place to account for the power gamers? It is far more then 5%... from current trends it would be closer to 20 - 30%.
Power gamers are what drives the gold economy in any game... lets face it if the casual gamer could spend the time to catch up with the people that have no lives, there would be no need to buy gold. You people can dance around the power gamer issue as most of the complainers are power gamers. It does not change the fact that most major MMOs out there have no way to deal with the rat race.
A good example of this is WoW, the most popular MMO to date. Prices in the auction house were pretty reasonable the first year... then BGs were patched in. More importantly level restricted BGs were brought in. This created a HUGE influx of twinked characters dominating the BGs. These players are not casual, they were the power gamers with 5+ lv 60 characters who had thousands of gold to pump into the auction house on low end items. Within a month you saw lv 20 items going for about 1000% what they were originally worth. Now fast forward to Blizzard's expansion, epic flight mounts and new super uber gear drops. It was the power gamers that had their mounts first not casual gamers buying money. It was the gamers sprinting to lv 70 that created huge inflation of BC items on the auction house. Power crafters that sucked the AH dry of any BC resources. Last it is the power gamers that sat at 70 for a week then went on rampages killing 60 - 65s on a massive scale making the initial lands and content less then fun to play in.
So where do the farmers and the sellers figure into what happened in WoW? Are you really going to say all of that was caused by gold sellers? The real truth is that it has been and always will be the power gamers that ruin MMOs for the rest of the community.
I love how the staff writer advocated better communities to stop these issues. The reason so many MMO communities suck is because the best guilds and the majority of the players feel they need to be in the 24/7 rat race to be a factor in the game. Ask yourself the last time you saw a casual gamer team win any arena? What were some of the biggest complaints about BGs in DAoC and WoW, power groups farming the PuGs.
I applaud you people for trying to make the game better. You just need better direction. Remove the power gamer mentality from these games and you will fix your gold farmer and exploiter issues.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
So basically people bot because it is boring after one or two runs. That is still bad practice.
The fact that you think it is enjoyable doesn't really matter.As long as an MMO game gives an advantage to people who have more time to play, then you will have people purchasing gold, levels, etc to even the playing field.
I hear a lot of, I would rather be lower level and know I earned it from players with high level characters and lots of time. Other people want to maximize their investment in the video game and be able to experience all of the content. So if they do not have the time to invest in the game, they are willing to pay for the experience.
MMO economies are ruined by one thing and one thing only and that is MMO inflation. Take World of Warcraft for example. A legit player who is a raider and plays 6-10 hours per day has a ton of extra gold. He has nothing to spend it on, so when he makes his alt to play in the BGs he twinks that alt completely. He is willing to spend 400g on a level 19 item, etc etc. A person who bought their gold is not doing that. They spent RL money on it and most of the time isn't willing to spend it foolishly. So the Economy is almost always ruined by the same "hardcore" players who are claiming that RL money being used cheapens their accomplishments.
I hope for a game to come out that does away with that massive Haves and Have Not syndrome. Of course then the same people will be complaining about how they aren't uber enough. They are the same people that complain about Solo/casual players wanting single person long quests to get epics. Because some how they feel entitled to have better stuff because they have no life outside of the video game. (and yes if you play more then 1-2 hours per day, you have no life outside of the video game).
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
I have bought gold online on several occasions and I justify it by the following:
In the case of Guild Wars I got scammed* bigtime - the financial blow was devastating. I ended up buying the equal amount online.
In the case of World of Warcraft I gave away all my money on a previous account to my buddy (who, of course, quit just after that), finding that re-opening his account (to get the amount back on my new account) would cost more than just buying the amount of gold online, I chose the latter.
I bear no shame.
*If you find buying gold as cheating then scammers should be put to death IRL. Yes, I seriously mean that. If I got the opportunity to kick someone's a** IRL because of some snot-face seriously scamming me in-game then I would. Call it PvP IRL with consequences.
Anyways, I've had a decent amount of beers and drinks tonight, so have a nice one!
I don't think cheating or buying gold/gear in a game makes any sense. You're supposed to be playing the game, right? If you just want to PvP then why play an MMORPG that requires so much time invested before you can actually get to the PvP? Anyways, I tend to enjoy the games as I'm leveling up without any hurry to reach max level or get the best gears. Why not stop and take a look around to see the scenery that the developers put so much effort into?
You argument is poor against buying gold OP. Just because the game may die does not mean that you do not enjoy it while it's alive. If this was the case what would be the purpose of living if unless you believe your immortal? Buying gold is a cheap move I agree. However, if someone wants to invest more money into their character to obtain their desired results then so be it. It's their money to do as they please. It can throw off the economy of an MMO, however, if the developers have enough money sinks in the game to compensate for this then it shouldn't be a problem. It's the same as when someone wants to buy a rare item on ebay or something from a game. I see your point, but I don't think you have much of an argument with your points.
I dont think powerleveling services, or gold services are bad at all. When you work a full time job, you want to come home and have something to enjoy. I personally dont feel like running the same dungeon over and over again to gain levels or get gold/items. If i got to a point where i couldnt advance in game because i didnt have the items/gold and getting them would require hours upon hours of farming: Gold buying FTW.
Because people are stupid. Others are entitlement bitches who want everything handed to them. End of discussion.
Bans a perma, but so are sigs in necro posts.
EAT ME MMORPG.com!
I don't have a particular issue with either botting or gold buying.
I see the grind as a cyncical attempt by the games producers to keep people paying subscriptions for longer. A timesink. I object to this far more than I object to people trying to work around it.
Grinding adds no extra enjoyment to my game, and I don't think I am a better player than someone who bought their gold online. I don't feel time spent clicking a mouse on skeleton, endlessly night after night is an achievement to feel proud about. Or that my ability to do so, differentiates me from the rest.
I don't feel cheated when I meet someone higher level than me or with superior in game equipment. Neither do I care how difficult it was for them to get it.
I'm not a big PvP player (at least not in MMORPG's), I can understand how players might feel limited if their financially better off competitors all outclassed them no matter what they did in game. (Although I also understand if those people with limited free time were to feel the same about "hardcore" players).
Again I feel that a well designed game can go a long way to mitigating that by making the best equipment Bind on Pick up or whatever. And once again I have yet to play in a game where this has ever made a discernable difference.
For PvP I prefer games that offer a balanced enviroment for competiton anyway. Chess or an FPS, an RTS. Something where spending more of your free time online, or (as in Eve-online) having paid more subscription fee's, hasn't given you a hard coded advantage. I think people who get upset about an uneven playing field are not playing the right kind of games to start with. If that's what you are looking for I suggest CounterStrike or Guild Wars, MMORPG's don't really lend themselves to that kind of gaming experience.
Essentially I think the PvP whiners have no one but themselves to blame. It's not the fault of the botter or Real Money Trader that you are unhappy, it's that you have unrealistic expectations of the genre. You are playing a game that does not cater well for the type of competiton you seek.
I think botting and gold buying is an obvious workaround for deficiencies in game design.
Perhaps I would feel different about the botting had I played a game in which I was unable to farm up my resources because there was a queue of bots permanently camping all the spawns, but since I have never seen anything even remotely approaching this in any of the MMO's I've played, I personally find the issue over-rated.
If I did find this, I'd just move on to the next game. Something more recently produced where game design has evolved a little more.
Gold buying on the other hand, I think is generally a good thing. I have a lot more free time than my friends, I tend to outlevel them almost instantly, I usually give them all my gold to help them keep up as it is. If they would be willing to buy it, all the better. If they could stay contemporay with me by running a bot while they are at work, that would make my games with them more enjoyable when they return.
There are some games (like City of Heroes) that have buddy systems, making playing with your friends much easier for people of differing levels. Once again, many issues can be alleviated by superior game design.
I think the major difference here is that I tend to play with real life friends. My relationship with them is not defined by my in game score. It does not affect my status with them in anyway. If they want to be powerlevelled or boosted or buy gold or gain levels while they are at work, I couldn't care less. Good luck to them.
As for ruining the in game economy, people who can't afford to buy game money, or don't go to work all day, aren't the people I most expect to have a good grasp of economics. The argument is weak and the arguers not best educated to give opinion.
The guy above me pretty much nailed it on the head IMO...
Because some people make enough money to do whatever they want. So instead of spending 9+ hours a day leveling or collecting gear they spend time with their friends, GF, family or just do whatever they want because they can afford to do so. Can you really blame them?
Sig by WhiskeyJack1
Bad game design forces players to seek whatever means to a competitive edge.
Games overly dependant on gear and level that put players into a competitive environment will always have these problems. Some will have the time to get the best gear and highest levels to have the most competitive edge, others will simply pay for someone else to do it for them.
The solution is to minimize the impact of gear and level while awarding skill, tactics, and experience.
I think from the very beginning of MMOs it was a struggle to find out how to do PVP, even as early as UO and EQ1 PVP was a big issue. No one has gotten it right yet. Why?
Competition is only designed for players on an even playing field. Look at all sports in history, even teams, rules, penalties, etc. It's all about skill, tactics, and experience. Everything else is made equal by the rules. It's very hard to do that in a MMORPG because MMOs are online RPGs, obviously, and RPGs have always been about stats and numbers and gear and level.
No one has yet found a way to make a true mmoRPG that doesn't fall into these trappings. The closest we see are games that few consider MMORPGS, like Guild Wars, Fury, etc.
MMORPGs, like life, are unfair. That's why we call sports "games" because they are meant to be fair, even matches. MMORPGs aren't as much games as they are simulations, at least originally, though obviously the trend is changing.
However they still face the trappings of RPGs, and probably always will.
Just my 2 cents...
If you can't cut the cake, don't try to eat it.