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D&D Online: The Perfect MMO?
Zech4
Member Posts: 80
When i first heard of D&D online i thought it HAD TO BE FUN D&D and a mmo is the PERFECT idea i mean theres nothing better you can base a mmo on.
But the game was horrible why? Because turbine isnt that great at making games this game could have been great if made by another company it had EVERYTHING to make it perfect just the wrong company.
Oh well maybe someday some other company will make a diff D&D mmo but until then we can just watch this failure : (
Any thoughts?
Crud forget the poll i messed up and accendentally clicked enter just post ur thoughts!
Comments
Its a niche game. I personally didn't care for it but I know there are people that enjoyed it. It also put a lot more focus on storytelling which was a little refreshing. It experimented with some new systems and I think thats worth some credit. They could have just copied existing games for the 'sure thing'.
I agree that D&D is a powerful IP that had a great deal of power and influence, and therefore potential to be really great. But then again, so did star wars. the trouble with good IP's is that there is a lot riding on expectations. The bigger they are, the harder they fall.
Great Poll, with the two Choices being "Yes" and "Yes"
Besides... I think Turbine did a rather good job of getting that D&D Feeling into a MMORPG. The problem is the community itself, all those dungeon-rushes, the min-maxing of Characters...
Get 4 Friends into DDO, and you'll have a great time playing with them, the Dungeon Master telling you that you hear something and so on, I was really impressed at how close DDO resembled classical PnP Sessions, if you let the game, and don't destroy all atmosphere through rushing or something...
So I'd say: "No, D&D is NOT the perfect Idea for a MMO, but Turbine did a fairly good job at it".
The Best MMOs will be the ones with Universes invented for that MMO. D&D for example seriously (if not totally) lacks in PvP regards, the classes aren't balanced in the slightest.
It doesn't matter who developed it because the D&D fans expectations can never be met.
I enjoy playing DDO.
I had purchased the game upon launch and cancled 6 weeks later. I returned around Febuary 2007 and have been having a good time playing DDO. It feels like Turbine is doing well with the new content and balancing. The game is expanding to what should have been availble at launch and I look forward to a paid expansion; must have TONs of content with addtional environments and a broader epxansion upon the campaign settings of the old genre.
Game play has always been good and it's improving. I am not a fan of twitch based control mechanisms although DDO functions EXACTLY how you'd want it to for an MMO. This is also the first game I've ever played online, besides Unreal Tourny, where jumping is a required feat to overcome obstacles and evade attacks. No other MMO has a useful jump feature like seen in DDO!
Turbine did it pretty damned good. They gambled on the play style and the game play is fun and challenging. The bigest thing DDO has going agasint it is requires a certain degree of social skills to enjoy playing the game.
People who are self centered will not do well with DDO. It requires a decent level of social skills to really have a blast with this game.
p.s. this is the game I fall back to when I need instant action. The game play is accented with good natured players who do not take it seriously.
Interesting. I didn't know jump skill was valued in DDO. Jumping is important in AC and was important in AC2. There are many quests in AC that require jumping from platform to platform. Also jumping lets players clear walls and other objects, which let's them skip ahead on quests.
I wonder if jump is useful in LotRO too?
I think the jump skill is needed in DDO. There have been a few VONS runs where you need a good jump skill. One I think to get to a shrine that is behind a tall stone wall.
The dragon raid I went on had a few people that had to jump and featherfall to a platform. Both instances I got jump buffs and featherfall buff.
As for LOTRO, only thing I can recall needing a good timed jump is in the new Evendim content where you go see the Blue Lady behind the waterfall.
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Promote what you love instead of bashing what you hate.
First up I personally found D&D
great to play pnp till about the age of 13. However, as it was so simplistic and unbeleivable (game mechanic not fantasy world LOL), pnp games like Runequest 
better served the pnp experience.
However, D&D
online brought a lot of good things to Gygax's creation, so Turbine
did an excellent job with the IP.
I would also argue that D&D
online has still got the best combat system available in a fantasy mmorpg.
The fact you can roll, block and duck in combat is seen no where else. That alone makes it a great game!
Further more, being an mmorpg, you don't have to wait till the weekend to get some friends round to roll/role play. In stead, night and day you can log in and experience the game with others.
sure; the limitations of a game machine and technology will never replace some of the creativity found in pnp but Turbine did it very well in translating the essence of D&D.
However, Gygax supplied lots of random tables that would translate well to the mmorpg environment. So why is there not even one dungeon using this system i.e. random generation!
A random dungeon is simply an extension of a random loot drop already used throughout mmorpgs!
You randomise the drungeon as you progress down, randomise the traps and mobs in it, and use a few other random elements and you create a dungeon that can be played unlimited times - just call it the Chaos Dungeon
if you need a realistic story line! You could even randomly select from all the bosses in the game and say the boss was ressurected here!
I also remember needing a good timed jump in the level 30 captain quest in Lotro....
But to answer the OP question - No, DnD is probably one of the worst settings to make a EQ type MMO with. The games rules does not support this kinda game, mainly because of unblanced classes and a very poor PvP system.
So IMO, i think it comes down to this - Would you like todays DDO type game with most of the core rules, or a EQ type DDO with heavy modified (maybe a totally new) game system?
P.S (I apologize in advance
) - I have played RPGs for 15 years now, mainly Palladium Fantasy. And in those 15 years, you DnD fans have been spoiled with loads of computer games based on DnD - while "we Palladium fans" havent seen one title! My point is - show alittle appreciation that you even get games based on your favorite RPG system. You dont even have to like the title made, but stop FFS, you whine like little spoiled brats.
Palladium made Runequest right? Yeah Gygax is very accountable for the evolutionary cul-de-sac fantasy mmorpg are presently in.
Hehe - In DDO i could have just stripped off my armour to improve my jump, but in LOTRO it need to be perfect timed - dunno how many times i tried
No, Palladium didnt make Runequest. im not sure who did but i think it was Chaosium...
yeah checked it - was Chaosium Inc. - yeah the wei
ght system in DDO is another example of the good work Turbine did.
Yeah, I'd love to see a Palladium Megaverse in action -- Fantasy and Rifts at least, perhaps Beyond the Supernatural too. Despite having somewhat "clunky" (at least I think so now, not back in the day) rules (but I thought the same of AD&D too) it felt like I had more options and the combat was both more realistic and visceral. I'd love to see a Palladium Fantasy title, but for cryin' out loud Rifts just SCREAMS to be an MMO... *sigh*
Palladium is clunky, but its a GMs wet dream if he likes to modify the rules, or create new things himself - The system has endless of opportunities.
As for a Rift MMO - it too would need a major system overhaul to pull off a MMO title. Rifts takes the unbalanced classes term to a new level
I myself though, wouldnt mind a whole new game system if i got to play a Palladium title as an MMO!
sorry for the somewhat subject derail
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with most of the posts here. I think Turbine did a less than tolerable job implementing SO many of the elements of D&D that I wouldn't be surprised if they decided to shut down the game within the next 2-3 years from low subscription numbers. They did a good job with staying true to character creation. The music was good and some of the quests were fun. However, they did an aweful job with game balance and the fact that everything is connected to one city makes navigating through the game feel like moving around inside of a house all of your life and never really knowing what's out the front door.
The game mechanics get changed on a regular basis because of the balance issues created when they try implementing things NOT in the core rule set and as such, you never really get a consistent gameplay experience.
To this end, I would have to say D & D Online SHOULD have been the perfect MMO but was implemented so poorly that not enough of the D & D fan base was willing to buy into it.
Okey..I know many DnD fans feels the way you do, but I feel a DnD title can never be a perfect MMO with its current RPG rules. Bescause no PRG rules works very well as an open world MMO - Here is why I think that is....
1. The Classes would need to under go a major balance fix if your perfect MMO would include PvP
2. The Spells would also have to be hit hard with the nerf bat - maybe in most cases been either removed, or totally changed. Spells that comes to mind: Blind, all hold versions, cloudkill, hypnotism, web, all sleep spells, all charm spells etc I could probably list more if I checked some web pages. (to lazy) If you have played any PvP you know that AoE crowd control is way to powerful - not to mention most of them have ridicolous low spellpoint cost, aswell as low cooldown timer. Which brings me to next point -
3. Saves... Three saves which are your bread and butter in any combat you encounter. They are too vital - it all comes down to is lucky rolling, it shadows the players on skill almost completly. IMO these saves should be removed and replaced with only one save - either you evade or you dont. It would help out the balance issue immensly.
4. Armor Class (AC)... having a Armor system which include both the armor rating itself and the ability to parry or protect themself. A system that raises your parry/evade bonus only by equipment/magic and not weapon skill is flawed to the core IMO. This wouldnt work in a open world MMO (hell, i dont this it works in the current DDO) I think the best way to do it is to splitt parry and armor rating into two different sections. Parry into your weapon skill in wether you hit or get hit and armor working solely as a damage absorber.... hey just me thinking out loud
5. Magic Items are way to powerful! +1 to +5 is insane when your max roll is 20. This makes any DnD MMO way to item centric and takes a further step away from being a perfect MMO IMO.
Just some thoughts why DnD would not be a perfect MMO, but that being said - if a DnD MMO would come in the make just based on one of the worlds and not the system, i definately would have checked it out.
i totally understand why turbine went the direction they did and atm - It fits me perfectly since i only play acouple of hours aweek with my friends. log in - hook up - do some quests - chat BS on voicechat - log out...it really feels like a PnP round for me.
bes
D&D PnP Ruleset is absolutely worst system to use in a regular EQ style MMORPG. If you know the rules at least a little you can imagine how imbalanced soloing would be for different classes. The spells are totally out of control for MMORPG, so many mess spells, even AoE mess, and so many instant kill spells where only the saving throw makes a difference. I can't imagine a MMORPG system for DDo that would work succesfully without a huge nerf of the system. There was only one thing Turbine could do and that is to implement forced grouping with great LFG system, rich quest descriptions and obviously different combat system. And they did a great job in it.
REALITY CHECK
And the last time I played DDO, you could still use mass mez spells, instant kill spells etc. in both PvP AND PvE, so I don't quite understand your point. They are being implemented currently without many "nerfs" to the system.
Im not gonna comment on your counter points, because they are just as valid and right as mine... we just disagree abit
But I still feel if we stick within the PnP DnD frame, or any other RPG for that matter - we can safely say that its not the perfect recipe for the creation of an MMO, hence the tread title. The fundation on which PRGs are build on, differ way to much from a "normal" MMO.
The previous couple of posts mentioning the D&D Core (is this what it's called now?) rules touches on exactly why D&D could never make it as-is in a true open world MMORPG. That probably applies to the majority, if not all, PnP RPGs as well.
I won't even get into class balancing, I don't play D&D and haven't in a long, long time so I don't remember such things.
Changing casters from "casts per day" (stupid, stupid idea, always hated that) into Spell Points was mentioned. I'm also going to add regenerating health to this same argument.
Now, when your DM writes up his adventure/module/whatever you're doing that night, it has a set number of encounters which is created with your particular group of characters in mind. Even if the DM is throwing in the occasional random encounter, he's still playing god and controlling the world and everything in it to suit your group. In DDO the adventures are written with no particular group in mind and no one keeping things in check.
Now, let's go with core rules and throw me into DDO with a freshly rolled wizard. I cast three spells, and I'm done for the day. My contribution to the group has come to its end already unless I want to step into melee range and swat at things with my noob staff or noob dagger.
Turbine used some alternate rules switching out casts per day for SP which lets the casters both be more useful for the duration of the adventure, while also having more fun. After all, FUN is the point of any game, which is the G in MMORPG in case anyone forgot...
Now, let's throw not only our casters, but pretty much any class out into DDO Episode II: Eberron Strikes Back -- an open-world game. Now we have any number of mobs of various levels running around, and respawning no less! If a noob wizard could only cast three spells per day (core rules) we'd quickly find no wizards in Eberron. Same would apply for any other caster class. Not to mention we get in a fight and our health won't regenerate. So we walk outside, fight, go back inside and rest for the night. Or drag a cleric friend along so he can cast three (or whatever it is for a level 1 cleric) heals on me. That should be good for say 5-12 fights before we're both back in our respective inn rooms for the night. I'm getting the feeling at this rate that it's going to be a very long time before I even manage to explore to the next area, since I'm seeing more of my inn room than Eberron. Where's the cancel button?
I could go on, but to me these two (spells and health) are but two of the most glaringly obvious reasons PnP rules and MMORPGs just aren't meant to be together. No marriage between the two genre's allowed, no dating, hell not even a one-night stand. I'd love to see D&D in a real open world game, but it's not going to happen without some serious, serious alteration of the PnP rules. Or, more to the point, using the D&D IP only and completely ditching the PnP rules. Actually, I'd be more interested in a PFRPG or Rifts MMORPG, but again, I feel use of that particular IP would be the best idea, but leaving out the ruleset itself and balancing the classes. PnP purists will whine, but they whine at anything. Just like us MMORPGers...
Im on board the Talyn ship
Well, fortunately, it doesn't HAVE to be an EQ style MMORPG. The thing I was really hoping for was that for once a gaming company would stand up and do something original and not try to make a game that panders to the masses, but stays true to it's IP. I brought this idea up in a previous post but, D&D isn't designed and never was designed for solo play. So forget about PvP, it just shouldn't happen in D&D. You're right in that the ruleset isn't designed that way, but what about Team vs. Team play. The rule set wasn't entirely designed for that, but it's a possibility.And the last time I played DDO, you could still use mass mez spells, instant kill spells etc. in both PvP AND PvE, so I don't quite understand your point. They are being implemented currently without many "nerfs" to the system.
DDo is easily the most original MMORPG that came in years. It is surely not an EQ clone and i never wanted it to be. It would be impossible to use DD ruleset for EQ style.
Solo playing using D20 cannot be possible, because the differences between classes at every level are huge in terms of solo capability. I dont know,for example half -orc barbarian with 20 STR lvl 1-4 would be killing 10 times faster rate then a wizards levels 1-4. And this is not exaggarating, it would really be 10 times faster.
PvP cannot happen nor team PvP using D20 rules. Take an example of lvl 7 players 3v3 each with cleric. I pressume both would just start casting phantasmal killer spell til finally someone fail its saving throw. Then going for varius mess spells like hold person etc. This kind of PVP would be only and entirely about random saving throws and absolutely no skill will be needed. Impossible to have any kind of PVP with d20 without HUGE nerf.
Yes there is pvp implemented, but that kind of pvp doesnt really offer anything to players other then a short breaks between adventures. Those are really just a tavern brawls. And yes there is plenty of mess spells for PvE, but thats not a problem. Important bosses are imunne to instant kill spells and mess. PvE aspect of the game is perfectly balanced and offers a lot of fun for people that likes to think about their character development in advance and plan every step and every level.
REALITY CHECK
Let's analyze what a DDO session looks like in comparison to what a D&D session looks like. Again, this is from the perspective of group play and not soloing as I don't feel that soloing is necessarily part of a "perfect" MMO.
DDO: Everyone in the group logs in says there hellos and grabs the quest. All five people get the same quest, read the same text, (or skip the text in most cases) race through the dungeon as fast as they can whether there's traps or not, accomplish the main objectives without worrying about optionals, grab every chest they know about, wash, rinse and repeat until they max level their character, get all the uber loot in the game and head to the forums to start complaining about lack of end game.
D&D: Everyone in the group sits down and chats for a bit. Then the DM takes control of the game and starts directing the action, NOT the players. (Now granted this is not something you can program into an MMO but just keep reading). Does the DM simply say, "Ok, go here, talk to NPC x, get the quest, hack n' slash your way through the quest, return to player, get the quest again, do it several times until you get your vorpal." ? No, obviously not that makes for bad gameplay the players would think you didn't care about DM'ing the game at all. So why is this different in an MMO? Why is DM suddenly off the hook for providing a fun meaningful adventure because it's in a virtual environment? A good DM gives you decent character interaction. Rolls Diplomacy, Bluff, and Intimidate checks based on YOUR character's playing style and doesn't rely on base numbers to dictate whether or not these actions work or not, but interprets the dice. The rolls you make with simple NPC interactions can determine the entire course of the campaign, whether it be a small detail overlooked, or a huge blunder. He encourages you to interact with the fantasy environment that he places you in, not run through it at the speed of light. He doles out xp and loot appropriately for your actions, not reward you for mindless repetitive dungeon running.
The problem I have with the line of thought here is that EVERYTHING has to combat oriented, and that's where most MMO's fall short. If everything is designed to be combat oriented rather than rewarding players for role playing and interacting with their environment in a non-combative way, then all you will get subscribing to your game is power/meta-gamers and plat farmers that want to sell crap to those gamers. Unfortunately that's what DDO has turned into, and Turbine has missed out on a HUGE part of what makes the game what it is.
Now to look back at your situation there. Sure, you could only cast 3 spells per day, but who said that had to be a real day? There's still inns that you can rest in to recover your spells, and not only that, but when you get into the higher levels, you get more powerful spells. Casters are SUPPOSED to suck in early levels, that's the whole point, by the time they get to higher levels they dominate fighters and melee. Therefore, to have a caster be wicked awesome, with a ton of SP in the early levels, is not a great way to establish that balance.
A lot of what I'm saying here is basically that Turbine had lots of options for implementing a vast rich fantasy environment for their game that wasn't entirely combat oriented. The game they created has it's ups and downs, but I still maintain, that if implemented correctly, the way the game was meant to be played, D&D would make for an insanely awesome MMO if not a "perfect" one. Obviously there would need to be some changes to allow this game to happen in a MMO, but not the ones I've seen in DDO.
Turbine made DDO's quests very similar to an RPGA-style adventure, which despite the RP being attached (actually this applies to any video RPG, both PC and console) is mostly combat-oriented. Sit down, introduce yourselves, DM sets the stage and off you go playing whack-a-mole with little true RP ever coming into the picture.
As for solo content being "appropriate" to an MMORPG, I'll whole-heartedly disagree. We're investing time developing characters who live in virtual worlds. In the real world, are you constantly 100% of the time around other people, always socializing or solving problems as a group? Or are you like the rest of us humans who need some alone time as well? Regardless of how little or how much you may RP with your character(s), your mood will still dictate your actions. For your character, the buck stops at you. While I feel it is absolutely invaluable to learn how to play your character (and class, if applicable) with group dynamics, it's also important to learn to be self-reliant. And then there's people such as myself who not only don't always feel like being grouped, but work weird schedules so aren't always online at the same time as my friends. I like to have choices, to have options in life. One of those choices is which MMORPGs I subscribe to, and I only subscribe to ones where in the virtual world I, and therefore my character(s), also have choices. Now, strictly in the D&D/DDO environment, sure... D&D was never a solo game, so I totally understand why DDO is a group game. But DDO is the exception, not the rule.
Take a look at LOTRO -- the day/night cycle is 3 hours each. Let's take that and put it into my DDO2 open world. Say I roll a wizard and haven't met anyone yet so I'm solo. I talk to the very first NPC I meet and get a generic "kill ten rats" noob quest. Using core rules, I can cast 3 spells and I'm done for the day. If I didn't get 1 kill per spell (and I most likely didn't at level 1) it's still going to take quite some time just to complete this single quest even with a 3 hour "day." (Or would it be 6 hours? Do I need the full day and night before studying some spells again?) Either way you look at it, I'm wasting time and not having fun. Sure, 3 (or 6) hours is quite less than a true realtime 24 hour day but I'm not willing to invest my playtime in that type of stupidity.
Open worlds don't have to be cookie cutter clones of each other, although you have to admit D&D is pretty much the great-grandaddy that gave EQ, etc. all their basic ideas so most likely a D&D open world game would in fact be cookie cutter in a lot of ways. D&D is slow-paced and turn-based combat, and would likely match the slower combat pace of LOTRO. And quite frankly, despite everyone whining they want different, innovation, blahblah, every time someone gives them that, they whine it's not the same as they're already used to. I'll wager a cookie cutter D&D MMORPG would do just fine. The "problem" perhaps for many purists is that many PnP gamers may have initially learned D&D (or whatever RPG popped your cherry) as primarily hack and slash but eventually grew to learn and embrace the other aspects, RP and otherwise that the game, the rules, and the worlds allowed. Video games haven't quite reached this stage yet, they are still very combat-oriented. If there's a problem, by gods, it can be solved with swords and fireballs, guns and grenades.
Perhaps if we were handed a "D&D" (quotes because I still feel the true PnP ruleset would never work) open world game with sandboxy elements, primarily the ability of 1) any player to write his own quests and 2) for the more hardcore, a trimmed-down version of the dev tools to allow players to design their own full-blown modules (these would likely be instanced, but I'm just making this stuff up as I write, but just think - similar to downloading UT/CS maps, there could be thousands of instanced modules out there to download) so we're not stuck with just dev-written material and you'd kinda get the feel of having a personal DM (your guild leader could be the "DM" and write a quest or module just for the guild) while still also having dev-written quests as well. PvP was never part of D&D but hey, I already said we're totally throwing out the D&D ruleset so let's just pretend we suddenly have balanced classes and PvP can be a reality. Yay, more to do in this virtual world. And so on...
Actually there was 1, RIFTS (not palladium but same system) had one game made for N-Gage, what a waste would have loved to see that game go to console or PC.