Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
end-game = wtf
Cooktastico
Member Posts: 599
seriously, weaksauce.
i think having an end in sight destroys an mmo. i remember back in the older days, it would be possible to see some random really high level guy running around ganking noobs/whatever and i'd be like "whoa i wonder if i will ever get up that hight." nowadays it's like, "oh i'm the only person on the server not capped out? better play a few extra hours so i can hit it next week."
is anyone actually an end-game fanboi?
Comments
Your post is weaksauce.
All games must have an end-game, but most of the time the end-game lacks vision, creativity, and is poorly developed. The consumer wants a lot of end-game options.
-----
WoW and fast food = commercial successes.
I neither play WoW nor eat fast food.
Thats why PvP and PvP servers put the end game in the hands of players and not developers. Developers will never put out the content fast enough to keep PvE'ers occupied forever.
TwitchTV Partnered Streamer
MMORPG.com Spotlight Blog Writer
Co-Leader of Inquisition
Youtube Channel
Lets get rid of levels and go to a skill based system where you can never have all the skills but you can tweak the skills how you like.
Game A... unbalanced, many options, tweaks and combinations... walk around with right combo and own all.
Game B... cookie cutter level system, everything handed out when you correct level, skill.
Game A does not have end game so to speak and is more fun for me
Game B is care bear and sucks ass.
IMHO
Anarchy Online and Asheron's Call are two games right off the top of my head that didnt really have a end game. It was like a running tv series. You mite finish all the oldies and play some reruns but eventually the next show comes out. If a game has a true endgame.. its dull as hell to me. Then again thats just me
The end-game in many mmo's is an endless cycle of people maxing out, complaining until the devs get new stuff out, people maxing again (sometimes within days) etc and etc.
The devs need to give enough tools for players to create their own endgame. PvP and RvR is a tool to do so but you need reasons to do these things.
Until they do these things, we will end up seeing the same ol'.
To say PvP is the only viable end game for a MMORPG is asinine and only supports a minority view. If there was a point to PvP such as conquering cities or campaign type scenarios then more people would come along for the ride, but PvP that just supports instanced showcase matches or meaningless ganking just to allow some people to flex their 'e'muscles is pointless for the majority of players.
Game companies need to stop talking about end games and concentrate more on providing things to do for people at max level to round out their characters (These are MMO Role Playing Games, after all)
To be honest the whole end game thing (thanks to WoW) as sort of ruined MMOs. People just want end game now.
They are not happy until they get to the end. And then when they do get to the end, they have lots to complain about.
In my glory MUD days getting to the end was fun. And RP and PvP at the end was fun. And thanks to eventual perma-death – the end was never permanent.
Well one of the things I like about playing D&D pen and paper was I never had an endgame. Sure I might have gotten my character to high level, but the element of permanent death made it more interesting. Even if I did die then I would start all over again and be in a whole different game and adventure.
Maybe the developers could make it so the first two characters you create do not permanently die. But the rest of the characters on the account you create do. So if one of them dies you have to start over again.
or
Maybe your characters can be brought to life so many times like say 20.
With this element in the game people will definetely not be so carefree when it comes to dying and losing all the gear and time they have obtained. It also increases the adrenaline rush because each combat is life or death for your character.However where it comes in terms of PVP/PK then those deaths do not count against your total deaths. Especially since a good portion of those deaths are out of our field of control.
True, all games must have an end-game, because it would be impossible to make everlasting/nonstop content, but isn't it a little sad on how easy it is to reach end-game now? I mean, people are already complaining about Vanguard's. IMO, it should take AT LEAST a year, if not more, to max out a toon. By that point, the game has been out long enough for the devs to already be working on expansion content, so it keeps players from having massive downtime repeating quests and raids.
While I prefer skills to levels I don't think making a game skillbased will automatically relieve the boredom of maxing out a character.
I think the reason MMOs get boring at the end of the game is because up until that point the repetitiveness of the game is tolerated because we are progressing, when there isn't much to progress in, in other words too few rewards, we get bored.
I think the key to changing this is to change the RPG formula. As of now we end up doing pretty much the same thing from level one to max, At max level a few other things may be added like raiding and PvP, but when the novelty wears off and we realize that these things feature in of themselves are not really that challenging but require more grind to get more skills or gear to raise our numbers and overcome, we get bored again.
So I propose the following, Start the game with X ammount of skill slots, and Y ammount of stat points, pick what you want from the beggining and jump into the world. All players stat points are balanced, so stat wise a newbie is equal to a vet and though you could change them latter, your total points doesn't increase ever, this means a vet and newbie could effectively play together, the only difference being vets have more skill options. No matter what you choose to do, combat, crafting, entertaining, government, you start doing missions that pop up based on actual game problems, you would be competing with other players and NPC from the start and seeing the results of your work.
Now since all characters are balanced in stats, HP is always a max of 100 and energy the same, and gear is balanced so you wield weapons and such that reflect your playing style and not a number hierarchy, you can jump in and start adventuring, essentually grind free. The only thing you have to work at to obtain is new skill slots, and unlocking skills not avaliable from the beginning, both of which are gained from accomplishing single challenges, so again essentually grind free.
So up until the point when all skill slots are filled, which can contain any skills you unlocked, you are having fun because you are over coming challenges not numbers, easily noticable changes in game play like never before seen skills (to you that is) being used by NPCs and players, and having to adapt by useing your own newly aquired skills.
Maintaining this feeling of beating challenges = fun, isn't so hard now, missions are always being spawned, like defend Castle So and So, and you can see the results of your efforts, I.E. the castle is no longer attacked, until the enemy faction chooses to do so, but instead of completing smaller missions for smaller changes, you are more capable to tackle the hardest missions possible, and you have a good notion of how you have progressed, like how you use to be able to kill one gaurd, but now you can kill ten, and thanks to you your faction was able to capture the enemy city. It makes sense because, the gaurds stats didn't increase and neither did yours, the conclusion is that you must have gotten better at using your skills which is mostly self improvement rather than character stat increase.
I think that this method would challange the player to improve their skills to progress and continue to improve to meet the challenges of the everchanging world in the "end game", instead of rinse and repeat until you get better gear to make a better character, which I don't know about you, but I don't find it very fun.
While this doesn't sound like your typical MMORPG, I am banking on the idea that people will have more prolonged fun, when they are more engauged in the game.
I type way too much
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
Interesting idea, Cactusman. I've thought before that something along those lines is a good solution if a game is to have anything like a balanced PvP system.
As far as end-game goes, I don't like the concept at all. End-game often just becomes THE game, so it's like paying monthly and working (rather than having fun) just to get to the actual game. If you're going to have a character level based system, content should be available at all levels.
I prefer a sandbox style model, where the game is the world, and stories evolve from the inter-player politics as well as dev added content. In such a setting "end-game" is a meaningless concept.
Its called end-game for a reason imo
Enjoy the game till the end, after that almost every mmo gets old
This is only true if developers continue to half-ass everything and focus more on shiny graphics than content. I've played several MMOs where content would easily last you several years, and the only people whining about lack of it were the same ones who skipped it all.
I agree, I can't see why I can't start participating in and being effective at PvP and other typical end-game content from the beginning. If the games were more focused on fun, instead of progression, maxing out would be reason to have more fun doing whatever you were doing before but now with your full potential, not the end of the long and tedious rollercoster called grind. Players, if given the freedom and options of a more open world, would create all the content needed to continue having fun.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
make levelling harder i.e Morrowind style system....and more skills problem solved
this is a similar chime we've all been stressing i think is a dynamic enviroment would be great that we can impact. I like the idea that all are created equal. I did not quite get how I go from killing 1 guard to 10 guards I will have to study this one. interesting ideas here I like it. all created equal is rich, meaningful PVP possibilities always. and there is still the "wonder" of acquiring new skills.
yes this is what guild wars did (the skill unlock part). you can always keep infinetly progressing linearly at level cap. good dieas here guy
Well, everyone reaching everything is bad design in a game focused and developped around progression.
However, any player unable to completely and totally master stuff he cares about, is also weak design.
If someone play 20 hours total, then he should be able to master something in the game, and nobody should be better then him. At the same time, he should still be a total and complete newbie for most of the MMO. The player won't really cares of been a noob in what he doesn't put the efforts to developp and play in, while he will certainly appreciate mastering what he did indeed developp and masters.
I never believe in forcing players into a particuliar setting, gameplay or whatever. They should be able to progress in what they like. If players like to do something silly, then maybe you should developp this silly thing into a gameplay and put a progression, so they can do more and more of it and get fun and reward out of it.
I am a fan of unlimited levels & levels caps. Unlimited levels on the whole game, but a level cap on each and every zone. So peoples have MANY goals, as many as they want. They can master, totally and completely, what they care about and feel good at it...and see a player in the next zone, kinda tempting him to go deeper...and deeper...and deeper. And have no fear, someone like me will always want more levels...even if nobody is ahead of me! In which case, I will look behind and try to forge the gap!
Sidekick is also a great way to have friends group together.
That's been said...I can accept to reach the END. I hope to see a never ending game however. But I will never accept to see the "end" been removed from my gameplay and put into aqnother, this is trash, and any dev who want to discuss that can meet me by the old church at midnight, bring no witness, no friends and no weapons, we will fight as God's intend us to.
Seriously, gimme a never-ending thing, or gimme a final ending reward...but don't deprive me of it by asking me to change and to play another game which I absolutely hate. I want to group/solo...
I dunno what is so hard to understand that I don't want raiding, PvP, tradeskills or whatever...if I can do it, I will bear some lame stuff, but honestly, if you want me in total glee and happiness...put more grouping/soloing...always more...or at least, put an END, not a new beginning in raiding, PvP or whatever lame...
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
endgame would be nice. it makes you feel you have accomplish something. but for mmo's it should lead you off to keep playing the game for more. like fun pvp and other stuff.
Ah I get you now Cactus just had to reread your post. good solid ideas and well thought out
That is a really good idea, the more avaliable for the player to do the more potential for him to play.
For example, I always wanted to make a character that traveled around to different bars/cantinas/taverns and played jazz music for money, why I don't know, but it sounds fun and if it were avaliable, you bet I would make an alt for it. Think I would play a sax, then mingle with the patrons, and have a few drinks after I am done, yeah buddy.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
I actually agree with the OP. That's why I've been advocating for no levels/classes/quests. There should just be characters playing in a vast world without instances (like the original UO).
Also, I think that those bashing the OP lack vision and live in the MMO bubble created by the flavorless recent MMOs on the market. Think outside the box guys.
- Phos
while i agree there should never be a "end game" (which is why i say, hey, why not remove the level cap and then trickle in areas for higher levels)
But beyond that... No levels, no classes, no quests... Why play? I know i know, this seems like a strange question.... but.... Is the game going to be one giant fps game, where your constantly pvping? Otherwise why bother?
Why should i spend 5 hours learning how to kill a dragon...to get nothing? just to say wewt we killed it? How many dragons can we kill before it gets boring, how many areas can we explore, why even explore them, i could just go talk a walk in the wilderness IRL and i'd enjoy it more then running through a virtual forest finding a virtual cave and running in and killing the same random mobs i killed a month ago in a different area.
I can build a house? player run city! neat! But afterwards what? just hang around it and chat? Go burn down some other random town, come back yours is gone, you build it again, rinse and repeat.... what's the point? I've done it once why do it again?
Should i be ganking random people? I'm not going to be rping thats for sure.... Really tell me what to do here? What is there to do in this game, that gives me a reason to play it other then "it's a online experience" Please i've been online for ages, the novelty of playing with other people has worn off... I don't go OOOO theres a player over there!! like omg!
No instances? Well take a look at guild wars, it is the only "mmo" that has a GOOD way of telling a story, even with no levels or etc instances would make it more fun and actually give me something to do.
Am i supposed to just run around randomly all day? Really tell me what the purpose of this game is? Why not just play second life?
Would you play single player games if they were just running around randomly and killing random things for no real reason? Would you play a rpg where there was no story, or you could go beat the hardest mob after 10 minutes of play?
This isn't 1996 where just being online is the point of the games... you have to give people things to do beyond Run around randomly and kill things, quests. Why do you think people HATE grinding these days, why would you want a game with grinding without rewards or purpose?
PvP is simply not ENOUGH, how many times can you raid a castle, how many times can you kill random people in the wilderness. How many times can you just randomly kill enemies? run to random areas just for the sake of being there.
You have to give people a purpose to play to be successful... Sure in the wonderful world of the mind it does seem fun to have complete freedom, go anywhere, kill anything, team with anyone. But in actual practice.... How long do you think people will play? How long will you stay interested once you have been to all the places, killed a ton of things, and built yourself your own town. Every game needs to have a purpose. If you create a game without a purpose people will have to find their own. But without you supplying them, how long will people be able to create their own?
Second Life is sandbox purely I read. its always in the news so ppl make real life incomes from it so i guess Sandbox is for sure profitable. proven in the market
so yeah there is a market but how open are you willing to go? Second Life is um,,, wide open I read
I disagree.
The problem is that people think games has to have end game. Mmorpgs should not have anykind of end, they should be virtual world simulations. People think that end game is when You character is ready. Problem here is that in virtual world, there is no ready, it's virtual life what can't be ready. Do people think in real life that You are done, I mean all what You want to do is life is it done?
The point is give players possibilities to do many different stuff, not run some ready made path or story from start to end. That's the major problem in allmost all todays mmorpgs, they have start and end. Because that's how they have been design to be. Example if I want to be carpenter in virtual world, let me run carpenter life there. If I want to be adventure who run's from dungeon to dungeon to find treasures, then let me do that.
Mmorpgs design should be wide range of simulation of life and not some linear game story. In life there is millions of stories and no-one of them are same.
MMORPG.COM has worst forum editor ever exists