Thanks Keogh for the suggestion. I think I'll take you up on it, being that my game is about to the way of the Dodo bird.
Let me ask you something though...since WWII Online isn't a MMORPG, do you still think its game physics could be applied to one effectively?
Also, thanks to all of you for the excellent replies to the OP...
Since we've covered travel fairly thoroughly now, I'd like to get more feedback on combat and how real-world physics would improve or degrade the battle experience in MMORPG's.
Rubies of Eventide has quite a realistic walking speed. It does get rather annoying at times, especially if you run out of "Teleportation Scrolls" and it takes 20 minutes to walk back to town.
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and consciencious stupidity.
I agree witht he OP that walking should be introduuced and some type of Fatigue' system should be introduced to limit the ammount of time you can run. As for real world Physics [not just running based but everything else] we are getting close to the stage where physics and great graphics will become possable with the help of multicore processing.
You see when the first Duel-core PC processors came out it was almost imediatly obvious how this new technological innovation could go to illustrate ill provide an example. One day soon we will have 8 cores on a single processor each capable of processing severall instructions at once [right now the best is the 4 core system], Now what the processor manufacturers have stated is because of this multi core system one day soon [within 5 years i suspect] we will begine to see 8 Cores where 6 of them do what CPU's do today and one core as a dedicated graphics processor and ne as a processor dedicated to processing Physics in a game.
So as you can see one day its plausable that we will get real Physics in a game. How it will affect games and gamepaly is ahrd to see but i bet it will be good.
"Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Jean Rostand
<blockquote><i>Originally posted by sekrog</i> <br><b><p>Since we've covered travel fairly thoroughly now, I'd like to get more feedback on combat and how real-world physics would improve or degrade the battle experience in MMORPG's.</p><p></p></b></blockquote> <br> Sorry if the 'quote' feature doesn't work when I'm quoting myself...I'm just trying to see if we can veer the discussion a slightly different direction.
Combat...no more travel...unless of course, you have something you just HAVE to get off of your chest.
Thanks Keogh for the suggestion. I think I'll take you up on it, being that my game is about to the way of the Dodo bird. Let me ask you something though...since WWII Online isn't a MMORPG, do you still think its game physics could be applied to one effectively? Also, thanks to all of you for the excellent replies to the OP... Since we've covered travel fairly thoroughly now, I'd like to get more feedback on combat and how real-world physics would improve or degrade the battle experience in MMORPG's.
To answer your question yes I belive that what the Cornered Rat team did on WWIIOL can be applied to other online games. However, because of the great attention to detail that would be required, it would take time.
Note, because of the realistic nature of the game, there is no leveling, no building up of skills. For those reasons, the game is not suited for everyone. Its realistic and completely player skill based.
Some examples:
Run too long and you'll just stop running and begin walking.
Get shot in the leg and you'll slowly bleed to death if someone can't help you and you won't be able to walk very well.
Drive a vehicle to far and it can run out of fule.
Get shot in the head and you can die instantly.
Gain to much air speed in a dive with a plane and suffer structural failure and become a lawn dart.
Pull too many G's in a turning dogfight and you'll pass out (most likely going down in flame).
(PHYSICS) Don't adjust for distance, muzzel volocity, forget to lead a moving target and you'll do nothing but give your positon away. (rounds arc, drop and lose volocity over distance).
The game doesn't have quests or NPC's. Players that obtained rank create tactical missions. Players that have obtain Command rank have been recognized and promoted by the community set Strategic objectives.
The object of the game is to capture or free Western Europe. This is done village by village and by stopping war resources at the source.
I've seen campaigns (winning a map) take up to three months to complete and declare one side the victor.
"Don't corpse-camp that idea. Its never gonna rez" Bladezz (The Guild)
Play Roma Victor. Try the real world physics for an mmorpg. Try walking from one city to the next and see yourself having fun with the real time hours it actually takes.
Games are supposed to be virtual and not bound by real-time rules. They are a break from reality.
http://www.roma-victor.com/ Play Roma Victor. Try the real world physics for an mmorpg. Try walking from one city to the next and see yourself having fun with the real time hours it actually takes. Games are supposed to be virtual and not bound by real-time rules. They are a break from reality.
Far be it from me to chastise an Elite member of this forum with over 3000 posts. Still...please read the bulk of the thread before commenting. In no way am I arguing for 'walking' to be implemented in any of today's MMO's. In fact, from the beginning of this thread I've made it clear that my argument has nothing to do with gameworld size and little to do with travel. What I was trying to solicit was a healthy debate over whether or not reintroducing some real-world physics in MMO's would improve overall gameplay if implemented correctly?
Interestingly enough, you'll find some excellent feedback (both on the pro and con side of the argument) throughout this thread if you take the time to read it all.
And for the record, I absolutely agree that walking in Roma Victor is about as much fun as having a root-canal...or having all four wisdom teeth removed in one sitting...without any pain-killer.
The reason why this is the case is because generally speaking the fun type adventure things happen when you get to your destination, not on the way to it. Because of this, having to walk someplace at normal human speed would be pretty boring.
http://www.roma-victor.com/ Play Roma Victor. Try the real world physics for an mmorpg. Try walking from one city to the next and see yourself having fun with the real time hours it actually takes. Games are supposed to be virtual and not bound by real-time rules. They are a break from reality.
Far be it from me to chastise an Elite member of this forum with over 3000 posts. Still...please read the bulk of the thread before commenting. In no way am I arguing for 'walking' to be implemented in any of today's MMO's. In fact, from the beginning of this thread I've made it clear that my argument has nothing to do with gameworld size and little to do with travel. What I was trying to solicit was a healthy debate over whether or not reintroducing some real-world physics in MMO's would improve overall gameplay if implemented correctly?
Interestingly enough, you'll find some excellent feedback (both on the pro and con side of the argument) throughout this thread if you take the time to read it all.
And for the record, I absolutely agree that walking in Roma Victor is about as much fun as having a root-canal...or having all four wisdom teeth removed in one sitting...without any pain-killer.
Don't take what I said as an attack. And also, I wasn't basing it on size. All I am saying is implementing a realistic walk will make all mmorpgs a drag. The average person walks 2.5 miles per hour. Think how long it takes to walk a city block. That would not be fun IMO in any game. Now granted, keep in mind that you can always switch to walking. Every game has that option (well, nearly every major mmorpg).
http://www.roma-victor.com/ Play Roma Victor. Try the real world physics for an mmorpg. Try walking from one city to the next and see yourself having fun with the real time hours it actually takes. Games are supposed to be virtual and not bound by real-time rules. They are a break from reality.
Far be it from me to chastise an Elite member of this forum with over 3000 posts. Still...please read the bulk of the thread before commenting. In no way am I arguing for 'walking' to be implemented in any of today's MMO's. In fact, from the beginning of this thread I've made it clear that my argument has nothing to do with gameworld size and little to do with travel. What I was trying to solicit was a healthy debate over whether or not reintroducing some real-world physics in MMO's would improve overall gameplay if implemented correctly?
Interestingly enough, you'll find some excellent feedback (both on the pro and con side of the argument) throughout this thread if you take the time to read it all.
And for the record, I absolutely agree that walking in Roma Victor is about as much fun as having a root-canal...or having all four wisdom teeth removed in one sitting...without any pain-killer.
Don't take what I said as an attack. And also, I wasn't basing it on size. All I am saying is implementing a realistic walk will make all mmorpgs a drag. The average person walks 2.5 miles per hour. Think how long it takes to walk a city block. That would not be fun IMO in any game. Now granted, keep in mind that you can always switch to walking. Every game has that option (well, nearly every major mmorpg).
No, please understand, I assumed you weren't attacking me. In fact, I agree with both you and Rollo above your post that walking in todays MMO's would be utterly ridiculous and unfun.
What I was trying to explain is that 'walking in gameworlds' is only a very minor and insignificant part of my OP, and that if you have a moment, please take the time to read the entire thread. You'll find a good number of excellent responses regarding various aspects of introducing some real-world physics into future MMO's. Forget walking if you want...think about combat...fatigue...endurance...etc. 'Walking' was merely a little story to help introduce a more comprehensive subject.
Heres what I would like to see (mainly from exp with pre nge swg hehe):
personal vehicles would give players a much needed break from the walking grind. They should be fairly inexpensive (for low model rides) and travel at decent speeds. If ya got the cash for it, get a super fast ride. Recharging of some sort should apply as well. If its sci-fi then recharging stations or the like. If its fantasy, stables and the like. heres the kicker, when you get out of your vehicle/mount, you default walk. You can run for a bit but there should be a timer for the running before you tire based on your stats and what your wearing. armor of course will now properly hinder your movement when walking/running. there could be a sprint option that will give you a quick boost for an amount of time, however, the boost will hinder you and leave you imobilized for a time depending on how long you have sprinted for. this could be great in a combat situation for escaping a foe but it could also be good when runnin down a target to have less armor and such so that you will catch up to them and they will be imobilized from sprinting and have no option left but to beg for mercy . this would be a great bounty hunter style thingy me thinks.
I think this system, coupled with a great personal and public transportation system would really add some realism to games without sacrificing players precious time. I would hate to be back in swg before mounts where introduced. that was some serious traveling. but when mounts and then player owned vehicles was introduced.... well that was just freakin sweet. The ability to trash someones ride and knock them off of it was great too. stopped skirters dead in their tracks like the cowards they were. I wouldve like to have seen some damage to the person that got blown off their ride though. I mean, sheeeesh. Your speeder bike blows up underneath your crotch and you stroll off like nothing happened? no way jose.
Pls no overburden with realism. In reality one shot = death. I reality people walk. EQ2 and WOW has some of those "walkers", they feel SO elegant and aristocratic. Phew, I really, deeply, passionitely HATE those snobbish walkers! End of the story!
... dont mean this personal. Just, if you're a walker, I hate you. =P I mean, I am MORTAL, why waste my time WALKING?
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Well, considering the OP was more focused towards walking, I was trying to stay on topic.
But in that case, still, I have to say no. One thing that I do not want in games is downtime. creating a forceful rest period for players to gain their stamina would be a turn off for many. Now, we talk of realism. Do you think that if your character gets tired from running a few miles that he will have enough endurance to battle that big ass MOB that towers over you by 10 feet? Let's not forget the amount of items you can carry in your pack. If we stick to realism, there is no way your character would be carrying around 100-200 kilos worth of equipment and items.
If you want a hint of realism - make your character eat and drink. That way it will somewhat provide a bit of realism. If you do not eat or drink you will slowly begin to lose stamina and endurance and greatly affect your stats. Make the player "relieve" themselves. What could be more embarrassing and hilarious than forgetting to go to the restroom and your character letting the load go in their pants while in the middle of a fight?
A few months ago I was playing in the closed BETA for LotRO, when the subject of gameworld size came up in general chat. The dispute carried on for a half-hour or so, with one side defending Turbine saying that the world was indeed 'big' and the other berating the developer for making a world that could be traversed in a few hours...instead of weeks as in the Tolkein novels. Then, someone had the sense to bring up the fact that in all MMO's our characters are endowed with endless endurance for running. In fact, in some games our toons are able to run at breakneck speed for indefinite periods of time. Therefore, he explained, that it is virtually impossible for a developer to build a 'true-to-life' model of Middle Earth because everyone travels at 30 MPH (50 kph) wherever and whenever they please. Now someone on the other side retorted by weakly arguing that horses could be used to travel faster...before someone tactfully reminded him that horses do not have the natural ability to run for hundreds of miles without tiring either. So...do we really NEED to run everywhere in MMO's? Is it possible to create a game that wouldn't bore people to death traveling between locales at actual human walking speed (5 mph)? Wouldn't be interesting to add the element of endurance and speed into the equation when trying to evade an enemy? How many Casters would sit back and comfortably volley fireballs at their foe when they knew that an agile Scout or Rogue class would have no problem running down the cowardly bastard? And Tanks...well, how many Tanks could walk from Hobbiton to Rivendell in full Plate or Chain Armor? Anyway, I KNOW the vast majority of players wish to avoid realism in their games...especially MMORPG's. Still, would their be any value in reintroducing some 'closer to life' physics into gameplay in order to increase the challenge of our games? Please don't simply flame this post with the same old arguments defending the lack of realism in games because they are JUST GAMES. I get that...really I do...and so do most of the others in our gaming community. All I'm hoping to achieve is some thoughtful discussion regarding the merits and drawbacks of actual 'physics' in an MMORPG. I'm NOT asking anyone to agree with me...just looking for a healthy exchange of ideas.
Ugh, This post just reminds me of the buckets of pain I experienced walking my noob EQ 1 toon from freeport to Qeynos for the first time. Finding my way across the karannas was about as fun as being burned alive at the stake. But I do think it is possible to create the fealing of a "huge" world by creating features that really do give the illusion of size. Big mountains, buildings, waterfalls, etc. But for me, if I have to choose between a huge world, and a smaller, well done immersive one, i'll take the smaller one everyday of the week and a month of sundays. I want quality, not quantity.
It would be hard to make travel like Real Life simply because we don't play the game 24/7.
So we have to have a faster means of travel to travel say 50 miles. Thats why commonly time goes by faster in MMOs (at least in DAoC) to give at least an illusion your traveling realistically.
As for endurance, there would be a lot of variables to consider for how long a person could run.
-------------------------------- Desktop - AMD 8450 Tri Core, 3 gigs of DDR2 800 RAM, ATI HD 3200 Graphics, Windows Vista Home Premium 64-bit Laptop (Dell Latitude E6400) - Intel P8400, 2 GIGs of RAM, Intel X4500, Windows XP Professional
http://www.roma-victor.com/ Play Roma Victor. Try the real world physics for an mmorpg. Try walking from one city to the next and see yourself having fun with the real time hours it actually takes. Games are supposed to be virtual and not bound by real-time rules. They are a break from reality.
Far be it from me to chastise an Elite member of this forum with over 3000 posts. Still...please read the bulk of the thread before commenting. In no way am I arguing for 'walking' to be implemented in any of today's MMO's. In fact, from the beginning of this thread I've made it clear that my argument has nothing to do with gameworld size and little to do with travel. What I was trying to solicit was a healthy debate over whether or not reintroducing some real-world physics in MMO's would improve overall gameplay if implemented correctly?
Interestingly enough, you'll find some excellent feedback (both on the pro and con side of the argument) throughout this thread if you take the time to read it all.
And for the record, I absolutely agree that walking in Roma Victor is about as much fun as having a root-canal...or having all four wisdom teeth removed in one sitting...without any pain-killer.
Don't take what I said as an attack. And also, I wasn't basing it on size. All I am saying is implementing a realistic walk will make all mmorpgs a drag. The average person walks 2.5 miles per hour. Think how long it takes to walk a city block. That would not be fun IMO in any game. Now granted, keep in mind that you can always switch to walking. Every game has that option (well, nearly every major mmorpg).
No, please understand, I assumed you weren't attacking me. In fact, I agree with both you and Rollo above your post that walking in todays MMO's would be utterly ridiculous and unfun.
What I was trying to explain is that 'walking in gameworlds' is only a very minor and insignificant part of my OP, and that if you have a moment, please take the time to read the entire thread. You'll find a good number of excellent responses regarding various aspects of introducing some real-world physics into future MMO's. Forget walking if you want...think about combat...fatigue...endurance...etc. 'Walking' was merely a little story to help introduce a more comprehensive subject.
I understand the concepts that you are talking about but for the most part they are in most MMO's just not in the way they are in real life. For example, Most MMO's use some sort of Mana or power so that you can't simply spam attacks. Anything more restricting then that would start to get a bit boring. This same concept applied to travel in a game really would not work as well. I am not going to claim to know what all MMO players are like, But as far as myself goes, I am impatient. I know it would annoy the hell out of me if I could only sprint for 500 yards and then have to slow down to a walk to get to my location because I ran out of endurance.
I look at it like this. One of the major draws of the games are they create real life type enviroments without the real life type pains in the ass. For instance. If you had a choice would you prefer to be able to travel 100 miles in 2 hours or in 2 mins? This is why your character doesn't have to sleep 1/3 of every game day, It would just be a pain in the ass.
If you want to see what this system of having stamina attatched to sprinting would be like try out WW2 online. It was the main reason I left it and went back to BF: 2142. When I log in I want action, I want to get into the fun and start wasting punks. I don't want to have to march for 30 mins inorder to reach my objective only to be shot in the head the moment I get there! The game is a very good game in my opinion, it's just that even with mobile spawn points it takes too long and 20 mins in a tank to get to my objective is just taking the p*** in my opinion. WW2 online had realistic combat which was great, but with the long marches on a map that's a 50% scale of western Europe it was just too frustrating. I've done my tour of duty with long grind fests, travelling for ages to get to where I want to go and whenever I see this I think to myself "I'm getting too old for this s***" (Danny Glover).
So I went back to BF: 2142, sure it has an unrealistic combat system when the amount of bullets you can take to the body is considered (futuristic armour?). However you have that same sprint and energy bar system and I can get into the fray ASAP, travelling for long times is just boring whichever way you look at it. Play WW2 online for a month and then come back here and tell me that marching for over 30 mins to get close to a town could be describe in any way other than mind numbingly boring. I used to put auto walk on and go to the toilet and have a crap and read the paper. When I came out if I hadn't reached the objective yet I'd say that atleast 80% of the time I was still alive, if I had got there I was 100% dead and started again and went back for another crap. In my opinion I could have a crap and read the paper without paying a monthly sub!
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
I have a solution to the walking/running dilemma. Design the game so that when you are walking, you move more slowly (of course), but are more aware. Your range of vision is increased.
When you run, just the opposite happens: faster movement, but decreased awareness.
So...do we really NEED to run everywhere in MMO's? Is it possible to create a game that wouldn't bore people to death traveling between locales at actual human walking speed (5 mph)? Wouldn't be interesting to add the element of endurance and speed into the equation when trying to evade an enemy? How many Casters would sit back and comfortably volley fireballs at their foe when they knew that an agile Scout or Rogue class would have no problem running down the cowardly bastard? And Tanks...well, how many Tanks could walk from Hobbiton to Rivendell in full Plate or Chain Armor? Please don't simply flame this post with the same old arguments defending the lack of realism in games because they are JUST GAMES. I get that...really I do...and so do most of the others in our gaming community. All I'm hoping to achieve is some thoughtful discussion regarding the merits and drawbacks of actual 'physics' in an MMORPG. I'm NOT asking anyone to agree with me...just looking for a healthy exchange of ideas.
The problem with modeling the world more realistically, forcing your character to do things in 100% real time like walking at 5 mph and getting tired at the end of a few hours of that, is that the mundane aspects of the real world are inherently boring. After all, if just walking for hours were all that much fun, wouldn't people be doing that, instead of playing a video game simulating it?
Remember that even Tolkien did not go into gory detail about the day to day grind of his world. He focused on the highlights, and swept the boring parts under the rug. There are spots where they just "travel south for 10 days" and such... he doesn't take a blow by blow approach to this. You see the important conversations and key scenes in detail, and then you skip the boring stuff.
D&D is much the same way. Unless you have a bad DM, he doesn't make you say, "We walk 10 feet... then we walk 10 more feet... then we walk another 10 feet." Instead, if you are outside adventuring, you are in a mile-wide "hex" on the map, and you say, "We're going to travel 10 hexes west." The DM then consults his random encounter chart and rolls to see if you have one, and if not, he just says, "OK, at the end of the day you reach your destination hex. There you see.... etc." Here the DM is glossing over the boring, step-by-step part of the adventure to get to the good parts.
Let's remember, that most people only have a small number of hours per day to devote to entertainment. Given this, they want those hours to be entertaining. Walking endlessly across an empty field for 3 hours because "that's how long it would take in the real world" doesn't entertain anyone except maybe a simpleton.
Also, remember, people often play these games to group with friends, and friends' characters aren't always in the same place as one another. Suppose my best friend and I get online for a 2 hour time period and want to group up. If he is a "3 hour of real time walk" away from me, we are hosed... we can't play together. Most game designers (correctly) assume people would rather spend their 2 hours online playing with friends, than spend those hours walking around alone trying to get to their friends.
The fundamental problem here really is that reality is relatively boring, and the developers are trying to entertain you, so they let you run fast and without restriction to let you get past the boring "realistic" parts into the more entertaining parts like encounters with NPCs or fights with other players.
Back in the olden days when these games take place people didn't have cars, and not everyone had a horse so running would be the way to get places. They probably had stamina up the wazzoo back then. Definitly enough to put anyone now and days to shame, even olympic runners I'm willing to bet.
I wish they would make travel more realistic, it would give us something to look forward too.....imagine having played the game for a month and not seen the entire game world yet, incredible. However that could only work if there were things do do or things that might happen while travelling, rather than rushing to a point where everyone is getting ready for a raid.
Map size, while important isn't really the most important issue imo. I would much prefer a big world where I have to run everywhere to a small world that I can move from end to end from in 5 minutes like in WoW.
You look at WoW. Pretty big world considering only map size, yeah, but there are major problems: the impassable mountains that surround every single zone really shrinks the world, and the strict level settings of each zone. Once you do a zone, like say, Darkshire, you have no reason to ever go back. Therefore people at endgame usually spend their time in a very small portion of the world. The third thing that shrinks WoW is the gazillion fast travel options available: Gryphons, boats, zeppelins, instant travel every hour, player mounts, player flying mounts, etc. WoW's world, and server size, are very small related to other MMOs.
I personally wouldn't care if we were made to walk everywhere with a limited endurance bar for sprinting/running. However, I would only go along with it if they did may a true to life sized world. But they could curb the travel time by allowing mounts, which should have their own endurance bars. There could also be teleporters in major cities, so you are able to explore the entire world in a life time. I'm sure people don't want to spend a day walking to the next city and would rather be questing, but wasn't the journey part of the adventure? I do remember reading great fantasy novels where it took weeks to get places, but they did run into trouble on the way there.
This goes along with questing as well. Who would rather do small mundane "quests" when you could take one epic sized quest that spans several levels instead. You would gain xp my completing steps of that epic quest. Steps that aren't kill 12 of these or collect 5 of these, yet rather kill the leader (required) and all his thugs(optional) and return to me. However, that leader is barried in his fortress a 1,000 miles away in which you must pass through hostile troll territory, a desert full of danger, then a jungle with it's own preditors before you reach that fortress. All along, you are gaining xp for each thing you kill along the way.
When a developer creates a MMORPG like that, I would be tempted to subscribe for life.
P.S>- Also, I am not one of those hardcore players also. I am a casual player. But one of the reasons I started playing MMORPGs back in 2002, was the promise that it would take years to develop and build my character. I liked the idea of spending years to create a character, instead of buying a new single player game every two weeks after I already maxed out my character and beat it. I know most people don't have the patience to play one character for years in order to enjoy a more realistic and rich experience and would rather deliver a letter to a person in another city or collect 15 bones for the local alchemist, but not me. No, I would rather spend a few hours travelling to the next city and fighting bandits on the way there.
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
Comments
Thanks Keogh for the suggestion. I think I'll take you up on it, being that my game is about to the way of the Dodo bird.
Let me ask you something though...since WWII Online isn't a MMORPG, do you still think its game physics could be applied to one effectively?
Also, thanks to all of you for the excellent replies to the OP...
Since we've covered travel fairly thoroughly now, I'd like to get more feedback on combat and how real-world physics would improve or degrade the battle experience in MMORPG's.
Rubies of Eventide has quite a realistic walking speed. It does get rather annoying at times, especially if you run out of "Teleportation Scrolls" and it takes 20 minutes to walk back to town.
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and consciencious stupidity.
I agree witht he OP that walking should be introduuced and some type of Fatigue' system should be introduced to limit the ammount of time you can run. As for real world Physics [not just running based but everything else] we are getting close to the stage where physics and great graphics will become possable with the help of multicore processing.
You see when the first Duel-core PC processors came out it was almost imediatly obvious how this new technological innovation could go to illustrate ill provide an example. One day soon we will have 8 cores on a single processor each capable of processing severall instructions at once [right now the best is the 4 core system], Now what the processor manufacturers have stated is because of this multi core system one day soon [within 5 years i suspect] we will begine to see 8 Cores where 6 of them do what CPU's do today and one core as a dedicated graphics processor and ne as a processor dedicated to processing Physics in a game.
So as you can see one day its plausable that we will get real Physics in a game. How it will affect games and gamepaly is ahrd to see but i bet it will be good.
"Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god."
-- Jean Rostand
<blockquote><i>Originally posted by sekrog</i>
<br><b><p>Since we've covered travel fairly thoroughly now, I'd like to get more feedback on combat and how real-world physics would improve or degrade the battle experience in MMORPG's.</p><p></p></b></blockquote>
<br>
Sorry if the 'quote' feature doesn't work when I'm quoting myself...I'm just trying to see if we can veer the discussion a slightly different direction.
Combat...no more travel...unless of course, you have something you just HAVE to get off of your chest.
To answer your question yes I belive that what the Cornered Rat team did on WWIIOL can be applied to other online games. However, because of the great attention to detail that would be required, it would take time.
Note, because of the realistic nature of the game, there is no leveling, no building up of skills. For those reasons, the game is not suited for everyone. Its realistic and completely player skill based.
Some examples:
Run too long and you'll just stop running and begin walking.
Get shot in the leg and you'll slowly bleed to death if someone can't help you and you won't be able to walk very well.
Drive a vehicle to far and it can run out of fule.
Get shot in the head and you can die instantly.
Gain to much air speed in a dive with a plane and suffer structural failure and become a lawn dart.
Pull too many G's in a turning dogfight and you'll pass out (most likely going down in flame).
(PHYSICS) Don't adjust for distance, muzzel volocity, forget to lead a moving target and you'll do nothing but give your positon away. (rounds arc, drop and lose volocity over distance).
The game doesn't have quests or NPC's. Players that obtained rank create tactical missions. Players that have obtain Command rank have been recognized and promoted by the community set Strategic objectives.
The object of the game is to capture or free Western Europe. This is done village by village and by stopping war resources at the source.
I've seen campaigns (winning a map) take up to three months to complete and declare one side the victor.
"Don't corpse-camp that idea. Its never gonna rez"
Bladezz (The Guild)
http://www.roma-victor.com/
Play Roma Victor. Try the real world physics for an mmorpg. Try walking from one city to the next and see yourself having fun with the real time hours it actually takes.
Games are supposed to be virtual and not bound by real-time rules. They are a break from reality.
Far be it from me to chastise an Elite member of this forum with over 3000 posts. Still...please read the bulk of the thread before commenting. In no way am I arguing for 'walking' to be implemented in any of today's MMO's. In fact, from the beginning of this thread I've made it clear that my argument has nothing to do with gameworld size and little to do with travel. What I was trying to solicit was a healthy debate over whether or not reintroducing some real-world physics in MMO's would improve overall gameplay if implemented correctly?
Interestingly enough, you'll find some excellent feedback (both on the pro and con side of the argument) throughout this thread if you take the time to read it all.
And for the record, I absolutely agree that walking in Roma Victor is about as much fun as having a root-canal...or having all four wisdom teeth removed in one sitting...without any pain-killer.
The reason why this is the case is because generally speaking the fun type adventure things happen when you get to your destination, not on the way to it. Because of this, having to walk someplace at normal human speed would be pretty boring.
-Currently looking forward to FFXIV
-Currently playing EvE and Global Agenda
Far be it from me to chastise an Elite member of this forum with over 3000 posts. Still...please read the bulk of the thread before commenting. In no way am I arguing for 'walking' to be implemented in any of today's MMO's. In fact, from the beginning of this thread I've made it clear that my argument has nothing to do with gameworld size and little to do with travel. What I was trying to solicit was a healthy debate over whether or not reintroducing some real-world physics in MMO's would improve overall gameplay if implemented correctly?
Interestingly enough, you'll find some excellent feedback (both on the pro and con side of the argument) throughout this thread if you take the time to read it all.
And for the record, I absolutely agree that walking in Roma Victor is about as much fun as having a root-canal...or having all four wisdom teeth removed in one sitting...without any pain-killer.
Don't take what I said as an attack. And also, I wasn't basing it on size. All I am saying is implementing a realistic walk will make all mmorpgs a drag. The average person walks 2.5 miles per hour. Think how long it takes to walk a city block. That would not be fun IMO in any game. Now granted, keep in mind that you can always switch to walking. Every game has that option (well, nearly every major mmorpg).
Far be it from me to chastise an Elite member of this forum with over 3000 posts. Still...please read the bulk of the thread before commenting. In no way am I arguing for 'walking' to be implemented in any of today's MMO's. In fact, from the beginning of this thread I've made it clear that my argument has nothing to do with gameworld size and little to do with travel. What I was trying to solicit was a healthy debate over whether or not reintroducing some real-world physics in MMO's would improve overall gameplay if implemented correctly?
Interestingly enough, you'll find some excellent feedback (both on the pro and con side of the argument) throughout this thread if you take the time to read it all.
And for the record, I absolutely agree that walking in Roma Victor is about as much fun as having a root-canal...or having all four wisdom teeth removed in one sitting...without any pain-killer.
Don't take what I said as an attack. And also, I wasn't basing it on size. All I am saying is implementing a realistic walk will make all mmorpgs a drag. The average person walks 2.5 miles per hour. Think how long it takes to walk a city block. That would not be fun IMO in any game. Now granted, keep in mind that you can always switch to walking. Every game has that option (well, nearly every major mmorpg).
No, please understand, I assumed you weren't attacking me. In fact, I agree with both you and Rollo above your post that walking in todays MMO's would be utterly ridiculous and unfun.What I was trying to explain is that 'walking in gameworlds' is only a very minor and insignificant part of my OP, and that if you have a moment, please take the time to read the entire thread. You'll find a good number of excellent responses regarding various aspects of introducing some real-world physics into future MMO's. Forget walking if you want...think about combat...fatigue...endurance...etc. 'Walking' was merely a little story to help introduce a more comprehensive subject.
Heres what I would like to see (mainly from exp with pre nge swg hehe):
personal vehicles would give players a much needed break from the walking grind. They should be fairly inexpensive (for low model rides) and travel at decent speeds. If ya got the cash for it, get a super fast ride. Recharging of some sort should apply as well. If its sci-fi then recharging stations or the like. If its fantasy, stables and the like. heres the kicker, when you get out of your vehicle/mount, you default walk. You can run for a bit but there should be a timer for the running before you tire based on your stats and what your wearing. armor of course will now properly hinder your movement when walking/running. there could be a sprint option that will give you a quick boost for an amount of time, however, the boost will hinder you and leave you imobilized for a time depending on how long you have sprinted for. this could be great in a combat situation for escaping a foe but it could also be good when runnin down a target to have less armor and such so that you will catch up to them and they will be imobilized from sprinting and have no option left but to beg for mercy
. this would be a great bounty hunter style thingy me thinks.
I think this system, coupled with a great personal and public transportation system would really add some realism to games without sacrificing players precious time. I would hate to be back in swg before mounts where introduced. that was some serious traveling. but when mounts and then player owned vehicles was introduced.... well that was just freakin sweet. The ability to trash someones ride and knock them off of it was great too. stopped skirters dead in their tracks like the cowards they were. I wouldve like to have seen some damage to the person that got blown off their ride though. I mean, sheeeesh. Your speeder bike blows up underneath your crotch and you stroll off like nothing happened? no way jose.
anyway, theres my thoughts on that. wuurt
NO. Period.
Pls no overburden with realism. In reality one shot = death. I reality people walk. EQ2 and WOW has some of those "walkers", they feel SO elegant and aristocratic. Phew, I really, deeply, passionitely HATE those snobbish walkers! End of the story!
... dont mean this personal. Just, if you're a walker, I hate you. =P I mean, I am MORTAL, why waste my time WALKING?
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Well, considering the OP was more focused towards walking, I was trying to stay on topic.
But in that case, still, I have to say no. One thing that I do not want in games is downtime. creating a forceful rest period for players to gain their stamina would be a turn off for many. Now, we talk of realism. Do you think that if your character gets tired from running a few miles that he will have enough endurance to battle that big ass MOB that towers over you by 10 feet? Let's not forget the amount of items you can carry in your pack. If we stick to realism, there is no way your character would be carrying around 100-200 kilos worth of equipment and items.
If you want a hint of realism - make your character eat and drink. That way it will somewhat provide a bit of realism. If you do not eat or drink you will slowly begin to lose stamina and endurance and greatly affect your stats. Make the player "relieve" themselves. What could be more embarrassing and hilarious than forgetting to go to the restroom and your character letting the load go in their pants while in the middle of a fight?
Ugh, This post just reminds me of the buckets of pain I experienced walking my noob EQ 1 toon from freeport to Qeynos for the first time. Finding my way across the karannas was about as fun as being burned alive at the stake. But I do think it is possible to create the fealing of a "huge" world by creating features that really do give the illusion of size. Big mountains, buildings, waterfalls, etc. But for me, if I have to choose between a huge world, and a smaller, well done immersive one, i'll take the smaller one everyday of the week and a month of sundays. I want quality, not quantity.
It would be hard to make travel like Real Life simply because we don't play the game 24/7.
So we have to have a faster means of travel to travel say 50 miles. Thats why commonly time goes by faster in MMOs (at least in DAoC) to give at least an illusion your traveling realistically.
As for endurance, there would be a lot of variables to consider for how long a person could run.
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Far be it from me to chastise an Elite member of this forum with over 3000 posts. Still...please read the bulk of the thread before commenting. In no way am I arguing for 'walking' to be implemented in any of today's MMO's. In fact, from the beginning of this thread I've made it clear that my argument has nothing to do with gameworld size and little to do with travel. What I was trying to solicit was a healthy debate over whether or not reintroducing some real-world physics in MMO's would improve overall gameplay if implemented correctly?
Interestingly enough, you'll find some excellent feedback (both on the pro and con side of the argument) throughout this thread if you take the time to read it all.
And for the record, I absolutely agree that walking in Roma Victor is about as much fun as having a root-canal...or having all four wisdom teeth removed in one sitting...without any pain-killer.
Don't take what I said as an attack. And also, I wasn't basing it on size. All I am saying is implementing a realistic walk will make all mmorpgs a drag. The average person walks 2.5 miles per hour. Think how long it takes to walk a city block. That would not be fun IMO in any game. Now granted, keep in mind that you can always switch to walking. Every game has that option (well, nearly every major mmorpg).
No, please understand, I assumed you weren't attacking me. In fact, I agree with both you and Rollo above your post that walking in todays MMO's would be utterly ridiculous and unfun.What I was trying to explain is that 'walking in gameworlds' is only a very minor and insignificant part of my OP, and that if you have a moment, please take the time to read the entire thread. You'll find a good number of excellent responses regarding various aspects of introducing some real-world physics into future MMO's. Forget walking if you want...think about combat...fatigue...endurance...etc. 'Walking' was merely a little story to help introduce a more comprehensive subject.
I understand the concepts that you are talking about but for the most part they are in most MMO's just not in the way they are in real life. For example, Most MMO's use some sort of Mana or power so that you can't simply spam attacks. Anything more restricting then that would start to get a bit boring. This same concept applied to travel in a game really would not work as well. I am not going to claim to know what all MMO players are like, But as far as myself goes, I am impatient. I know it would annoy the hell out of me if I could only sprint for 500 yards and then have to slow down to a walk to get to my location because I ran out of endurance.I look at it like this. One of the major draws of the games are they create real life type enviroments without the real life type pains in the ass. For instance. If you had a choice would you prefer to be able to travel 100 miles in 2 hours or in 2 mins? This is why your character doesn't have to sleep 1/3 of every game day, It would just be a pain in the ass.
-Currently looking forward to FFXIV
-Currently playing EvE and Global Agenda
If you want to see what this system of having stamina attatched to sprinting would be like try out WW2 online. It was the main reason I left it and went back to BF: 2142. When I log in I want action, I want to get into the fun and start wasting punks. I don't want to have to march for 30 mins inorder to reach my objective only to be shot in the head the moment I get there! The game is a very good game in my opinion, it's just that even with mobile spawn points it takes too long and 20 mins in a tank to get to my objective is just taking the p*** in my opinion. WW2 online had realistic combat which was great, but with the long marches on a map that's a 50% scale of western Europe it was just too frustrating. I've done my tour of duty with long grind fests, travelling for ages to get to where I want to go and whenever I see this I think to myself "I'm getting too old for this s***" (Danny Glover).
So I went back to BF: 2142, sure it has an unrealistic combat system when the amount of bullets you can take to the body is considered (futuristic armour?). However you have that same sprint and energy bar system and I can get into the fray ASAP, travelling for long times is just boring whichever way you look at it. Play WW2 online for a month and then come back here and tell me that marching for over 30 mins to get close to a town could be describe in any way other than mind numbingly boring. I used to put auto walk on and go to the toilet and have a crap and read the paper. When I came out if I hadn't reached the objective yet I'd say that atleast 80% of the time I was still alive, if I had got there I was 100% dead and started again and went back for another crap. In my opinion I could have a crap and read the paper without paying a monthly sub!
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
When i want to walk i just put it /afk and go for a walk.
It is a question of fangs.
I have a solution to the walking/running dilemma. Design the game so that when you are walking, you move more slowly (of course), but are more aware. Your range of vision is increased.
When you run, just the opposite happens: faster movement, but decreased awareness.
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and consciencious stupidity.
The problem with modeling the world more realistically, forcing your character to do things in 100% real time like walking at 5 mph and getting tired at the end of a few hours of that, is that the mundane aspects of the real world are inherently boring. After all, if just walking for hours were all that much fun, wouldn't people be doing that, instead of playing a video game simulating it?
Remember that even Tolkien did not go into gory detail about the day to day grind of his world. He focused on the highlights, and swept the boring parts under the rug. There are spots where they just "travel south for 10 days" and such... he doesn't take a blow by blow approach to this. You see the important conversations and key scenes in detail, and then you skip the boring stuff.
D&D is much the same way. Unless you have a bad DM, he doesn't make you say, "We walk 10 feet... then we walk 10 more feet... then we walk another 10 feet." Instead, if you are outside adventuring, you are in a mile-wide "hex" on the map, and you say, "We're going to travel 10 hexes west." The DM then consults his random encounter chart and rolls to see if you have one, and if not, he just says, "OK, at the end of the day you reach your destination hex. There you see.... etc." Here the DM is glossing over the boring, step-by-step part of the adventure to get to the good parts.
Let's remember, that most people only have a small number of hours per day to devote to entertainment. Given this, they want those hours to be entertaining. Walking endlessly across an empty field for 3 hours because "that's how long it would take in the real world" doesn't entertain anyone except maybe a simpleton.
Also, remember, people often play these games to group with friends, and friends' characters aren't always in the same place as one another. Suppose my best friend and I get online for a 2 hour time period and want to group up. If he is a "3 hour of real time walk" away from me, we are hosed... we can't play together. Most game designers (correctly) assume people would rather spend their 2 hours online playing with friends, than spend those hours walking around alone trying to get to their friends.
The fundamental problem here really is that reality is relatively boring, and the developers are trying to entertain you, so they let you run fast and without restriction to let you get past the boring "realistic" parts into the more entertaining parts like encounters with NPCs or fights with other players.
C
Back in the olden days when these games take place people didn't have cars, and not everyone had a horse so running would be the way to get places. They probably had stamina up the wazzoo back then. Definitly enough to put anyone now and days to shame, even olympic runners I'm willing to bet.
I wish they would make travel more realistic, it would give us something to look forward too.....imagine having played the game for a month and not seen the entire game world yet, incredible. However that could only work if there were things do do or things that might happen while travelling, rather than rushing to a point where everyone is getting ready for a raid.
Map size, while important isn't really the most important issue imo. I would much prefer a big world where I have to run everywhere to a small world that I can move from end to end from in 5 minutes like in WoW.
You look at WoW. Pretty big world considering only map size, yeah, but there are major problems: the impassable mountains that surround every single zone really shrinks the world, and the strict level settings of each zone. Once you do a zone, like say, Darkshire, you have no reason to ever go back. Therefore people at endgame usually spend their time in a very small portion of the world. The third thing that shrinks WoW is the gazillion fast travel options available: Gryphons, boats, zeppelins, instant travel every hour, player mounts, player flying mounts, etc. WoW's world, and server size, are very small related to other MMOs.
I personally wouldn't care if we were made to walk everywhere with a limited endurance bar for sprinting/running. However, I would only go along with it if they did may a true to life sized world. But they could curb the travel time by allowing mounts, which should have their own endurance bars. There could also be teleporters in major cities, so you are able to explore the entire world in a life time. I'm sure people don't want to spend a day walking to the next city and would rather be questing, but wasn't the journey part of the adventure? I do remember reading great fantasy novels where it took weeks to get places, but they did run into trouble on the way there.
This goes along with questing as well. Who would rather do small mundane "quests" when you could take one epic sized quest that spans several levels instead. You would gain xp my completing steps of that epic quest. Steps that aren't kill 12 of these or collect 5 of these, yet rather kill the leader (required) and all his thugs(optional) and return to me. However, that leader is barried in his fortress a 1,000 miles away in which you must pass through hostile troll territory, a desert full of danger, then a jungle with it's own preditors before you reach that fortress. All along, you are gaining xp for each thing you kill along the way.
When a developer creates a MMORPG like that, I would be tempted to subscribe for life.
P.S>- Also, I am not one of those hardcore players also. I am a casual player. But one of the reasons I started playing MMORPGs back in 2002, was the promise that it would take years to develop and build my character. I liked the idea of spending years to create a character, instead of buying a new single player game every two weeks after I already maxed out my character and beat it. I know most people don't have the patience to play one character for years in order to enjoy a more realistic and rich experience and would rather deliver a letter to a person in another city or collect 15 bones for the local alchemist, but not me. No, I would rather spend a few hours travelling to the next city and fighting bandits on the way there.
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR
Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.