All I have to say about it is this game must have been written by Chinese gold farmers because it has L2Walker (or some other botting program) coded right into the game itself. This so called game will be overrun with gold farmers if it isn't already as they have made it EXTREMELY easy for them. This is one of the reasons I left L2 after over 3 years and I'm not about to start playing a game where everyone is a bot.....farmer and player. Enough said.
I've never played this game, but for a while I did follow it and read up on it. With all of these comments and opinions against gameplay, what were you expecting? Most of the asian mmos that are shown on this site are a grindfest. Gameloading says he follows foreign mmos. Why? so you can see if Asia really is only pumping out mediocre grind fests? I have played almost every mmo without a doubt, and for about a year I would say now, only a few western mmos contain some originality.
This may be a bit rant-ish, but I have no idea how you all can get so hyped up over an mmo that comes from the land of bad mmos. What good has anyone seen from there in a long time?
I've never played this game, but for a while I did follow it and read up on it. With all of these comments and opinions against gameplay, what were you expecting? Most of the asian mmos that are shown on this site are a grindfest. Gameloading says he follows foreign mmos. Why? so you can see if Asia really is only pumping out mediocre grind fests? I have played almost every mmo without a doubt, and for about a year I would say now, only a few western mmos contain some originality. This may be a bit rant-ish, but I have no idea how you all can get so hyped up over an mmo that comes from the land of bad mmos. What good has anyone seen from there in a long time?
I've never played this game, but for a while I did follow it and read up on it. With all of these comments and opinions against gameplay, what were you expecting? Most of the asian mmos that are shown on this site are a grindfest. Gameloading says he follows foreign mmos. Why? so you can see if Asia really is only pumping out mediocre grind fests? I have played almost every mmo without a doubt, and for about a year I would say now, only a few western mmos contain some originality. This may be a bit rant-ish, but I have no idea how you all can get so hyped up over an mmo that comes from the land of bad mmos. What good has anyone seen from there in a long time?
Count every asian MMORPG that listed on this website, every single one of them. Got it? Okay good. Thats about 5 ~ 10% of the asian MMO market. I have seen high quality MMO's in Asia, but only few of them make it here.
The asian market is like this:
There are a few MMO's that set a standard in Asia for a certain amount of years, these come from the big, wel funded corporations such as NCsoft, Gravity, etc. Now what happened over the past 10 years is that smaller companies with small budgets started to develop clones of those games. Think of games like Last Chaos. These low budget clones make up for the vast majority of Asian MMO's. Western companies who are looking to make a quick buck import these clones because they are cheap.
Its like an Asian gamer playing a game like Runescape or Tibia and then makes claims that every western MMORPG is complete crap.
The graphic hysteria certainly didn't help Vanguard, this should serve as an example that even though you have great graphics the game can still lack depth, substance and continuity.
The Old Timers Guild Laid back, not so serious, no drama. All about the fun!
www.oldtimersguild.com An opinion should be the result of thought, not a substitute for it. - Jef Mallett
Originally posted by Roin Honestly Vasburg, I believe you are lying. I've played GE for alot longer then you have, I know the game alot better then you do. AFK leveling without a squad where at least one person is monitoring from time to time, just isn't going to happen. Even in low spawn rate zone mobs are hit much harder then mobs before you start hunting level 52+ mobs. You can pretty much forget trying to afk level in any dungeon post 50. Unless you are hunting mobs at the breaking point (8 levels below you) at which point even if you sat there for 2 days you wouldn't gain enough exp to level up. Not to mention as Cleffy said you would be easy pickings for someone wanting to raise their Baron Status. So pretty much you are full of hot air.
Honestly Roin, I don't really care what you believe or not. And obviously you don't even know 10% of what you pretend to. You can't talk about afk-leveling and dungeons in the same sentence. But just scroll up, there you will see 3 examples of locations I've mentiond, where afk-leveling from 50-70 is easily possible at low to no risk. So Mister Hot Air, I would suggest you just try it. If you can't do it, you certainly are doing something wrong. There is not much more to add for me, because that's just the way it is.
Originally posted by GameLoading Actually you completely proved my point. it took you 2 months of afk leveling to create a level 60 and a level 70 char group. I made it to level 67 in about a week time.
I'm afraid that was not your point. At least none that needed proof - nobody denied that actively playing is a bit faster than afk-leveling (then again it's not *that* much, if you consider that you can afk-level 24/7, which isn't possible by actively playing - unless you are a King of No-Life on amphetamines). Also, you must consider that I am playing (IAH's) Granado Espada, and you K2's Sword of the New World. And that your version has doubled (or tripled?) XP and droprates compared to mine. (That aside, I gladly accept a 50% slower progress, if as a side-effect I don't have to waste any time at all into this boring semi-automated combat. Going to a club, watching TV, sleeping, working... I can do all of it, instead of watching my toons fight and assisting them by pressing a hotkey every 20 seconds. Thing is just, without a proper endgame there is not much of a reason to play a game without playing it. That is what I realized after 2 months, and what made me delete this game.)
The combat feels automated because you chose to do so. You decided to auto level, that is YOUR decision. I'm always using skills, moving my character around to kill as many mobs as possible, buff, heal etc, and looking at the level - time comparison I mentioned above, it shows.
Either you are not really getting the point, or (as always) you are trying to push your opponent into a position he never really took in the first place, so you have an easier time defending yours.
When I talk about trying to *actively* play the game, which bores me so much that after a short while I choose to continue afk-leveling, telling me that being afk causes that automated feeling doesn't make much sense, now does it? If I am not afk, I jump into a big crazy-spawn-room and throw in AoE spells, while running around (in a very limited and small radius, because first off the GE maps are small as phone boots, and because doing so while having claimed on of those "uber spawns" is NOT productive). Now I hardly ever heal manually, and buffs only need ot be recast every ~15 minutes.
My point, however, remains: The combat is not involving, not interactive. I still hit space bar to start fighting, never seleting a single target manually (well, the game's nature wouldn't make that very viable). Non-AoE skills are USELESS in regular non-boss-combat. With streams of monsters attacking and attacking, usually by the time you have executed the spell/skill against a single foe, that foe is dead already. Really, apart from buffs (in theory heals) and AOE skills I don't use any skills at all, while the whole rest of the combat feels totally automated. WAY more automated than in every other MMORPG. Actually more like Starcraft combat (only in Starcraft you manage resources, build bases and don't have to camp a single room/dungeon area for hours and hours).
If you are too stubborn to admit it, so be it.
The weak and boring pvp endgame? well I guess thats your opinion, but with clan wars, a faction vs faction vs faction pvp system, and PVP that actually (Heaven forbids) is based on playerskill is one of the best features of Granado Espada.
Yes, the weak and boring pvp endgame. What faction vs faction vs faction pvp system? Dude, you make it sound like DAoC (which, as a counter-example, shows how great a pvp endgame can be... GE is NOTHING like that). Stop deluding people like that. While wondering where you are taking the 3rd faction from (or does K2 allow you to participate in colony wars as a Neutralist?) these Colony Wars are 2 hours per week. Even if those colony wars were nearly as great as you're thinking (I am not, but that's a matter of preference), 2 hours per week are NOT a proper pvp endgame for me. In any possible case. Outside of those 2hrs/week all that remains as a PvP endgame are duels. And the Baron system on PK servers. With hardly anyone going Baron at all, because GE offers no reward or even stat tracking system for your PK accomplishments. (And Baron Level is just a temporary figure, decreasing with every killed monster... and in GE you can hardly ever avoid doing that, eh?). Not to mention that a Baron drops items, his victims do not. So once you are bold enough to go Baron, the whole map hunts you for items, with nothing to lose. Sad to say that due to these restraints the largest SEA PK server (Cervantes) pretty much exactly feels like a carebear server. And sad to say that I don't like this PK system at all. No reward system and not even good for some instant random-pk fun, because too much is at stake. (On a PK server -- which always is an optional choice for players, so nobody is forced to play here -- either implement player looting or not. But only punishing the attacker, not anybody who could possibly kill him, even if he was outnumberd 20:1 with dropping equipment, is simply a farce. But anyway, I am not judging a PvP endgame by it's PK server ruleset, and GE's regular PvP endgame is no endgame. So I consider it being weak.)
Calling the GE pvp system to be based on player skill is kinda funny: I have never played a game with a larger impact of uber items, to compensate (or actually totally ignore) player skill. Yes, I am talking about Elite Weapons/Armors, which basically emulate Unique Items like 20 levels higher. (Oh, and let's not forget AR/DR items, with the totally screwed up calculation of these stats). Well, most MMORPGs value time played (equipment/level) over playerskill when it comes to PvP. GE is no exception, and actually seems even worse and more imbalanced than many (not all) other MMOs in that department. Calling it a game with PvP based on playerskill is one of the most ridiculous things to say.
But since you had communication problems
Oh, I am sure you don't have. With all those parties/groups going on, talkative players and zone/public chat channels GE is offering /irony off.
I'm going to assume you never joined a clan, so you're missing out on all of those.
Apart from the fact that you are wrong (was in 2 large guilds), clans/guilds can NEVER be an argument for weak/no communication in an MMO. Clan/guild buddies always communicate with each other, that's not a point. By your (flawed) definition, an MMO with communication issues it not possible.
But since you are dragging this in, communication among guild mates in GE is even less than in other MMOs, since most people "play" this game afk for the most time.
Again, Grouping is your decision. Despite popular belief, the game does NOT punish you for grouping (in fact, I believe there is an XP gain bonus for grouping). you're not grouping because thats your decision. I joined a clan and it fixed all of the socializing, chatting and grouping issues. Keep in mind this is still an asian game, a game based on clans.
Thing is that popular belief IS what defines whether groups are going on or not. In GE they are not. That aside, the bonus only makes up for the losses, if you are killing at least twice as much in a 2 player group than you would alone. Other than that, XP-wise groups totally suck in GE. I tried it several times. Either way, it does not fix the problem that players are generally not willing to group up and that communication in GE is almost non-existent. (Similar to post-Nightfall Guild Wars with the introduction of heroes, although at least there you got a zone chat in towns/outposts...).
All things aside, if you love this game, that's great. Just don't try to delude people by denying obvious weaknesses this game has. If you feel like defending this game, rather focus on it's strengths.
(Even GE has some of those, it's not like it only consists of weaknesses. For example the "solobility" of GE makes it a much more worthwile gaming experience during shorter gaming sessions. No hours of "lfg" or "group lf healer" before you can finally start hunting... or not. But the lack of communication among players IS an (inevitable) side-effect of this strength, which seems to be even more brutal in GE than in comparable MMOs with high soloability.)
And honestly, the MAJORITY of players (talking of experienced MMORPG players, who mainly played "western" p2p games) simply considers GE to be utterly boring, content-free, non-interactive etc. pp. Telling them "no, the fighting system does not feel automated" is not the way to go, because they *feel* it that way. Out of my guild (around 30 people with whom I have played several MMOs for years) I couldn't talk ANYONE into playing GE for more than a week. (Half of them already wanted to delete it after seeing the totally non-existent character creation). Even though I was kinda kinda euphoric about this game in the first weeks. But yeah, it quickly turned out to be one ofthe worst MMO experiences I ever had since... Deicide Online.
Granado Espada (as I played it) is a sorry excuse for lazy development. They made awesome graphics, awesome music and even some awesome skills, and then they ran out of inspiration game content wise, realised there mistake and said ''ok go afk level'' (ok no they didnt literally say that, but honestly it sums the game up perfectly).
WHY do almost ALL Korean MMORPG's have to resolve to grinding? Is it so DAMN HARD to just make content that will make you level up, other than kill monsters (and im severely excluding ''get this and this drop from this or this monster'', or ''kill x amount of y monsters''. It's retarded, honestly.
I AFK level'd to 35, in dungeons, open ground, wherever, then realised this game was complete crap despite its potential. The lack of content killed it.
EDIT: I was in a clan from the moment my mate could make one, with a group of friends I always play games with. There was no lack of communication in our clan since we all know each other really well, and we tried to group up when ever possible. Then we realised the xp bonus doesnt account for the kills made, and the game itself is just totally void of content.
EDIT #2: If you consider this bashing, I say you didnt read the OP's post proper. It's called being dissapointed. The game obviously shows a lot of potential, yet its ruined by grinding, yet again. I could name atleast 3 more korean MMORPG's that I tried that share the same problem.
Honestly Vasburg, I believe you are lying. I've played GE for alot longer then you have, I know the game alot better then you do. AFK leveling without a squad where at least one person is monitoring from time to time, just isn't going to happen. Even in low spawn rate zone mobs are hit much harder then mobs before you start hunting level 52+ mobs. You can pretty much forget trying to afk level in any dungeon post 50. Unless you are hunting mobs at the breaking point (8 levels below you) at which point even if you sat there for 2 days you wouldn't gain enough exp to level up. Not to mention as Cleffy said you would be easy pickings for someone wanting to raise their Baron Status. So pretty much you are full of hot air.
Honestly Roin, I don't really care what you believe or not. And obviously you don't even know 10% of what you pretend to.
You can't talk about afk-leveling and dungeons in the same sentence. But just scroll up, there you will see 3 examples of locations I've mentiond, where afk-leveling from 50-70 is easily possible at low to no risk.
So Mister Hot Air, I would suggest you just try it. If you can't do it, you certainly are doing something wrong. There is not much more to add for me, because that's just the way it is.
Originally posted by GameLoading
Actually you completely proved my point. it took you 2 months of afk leveling to create a level 60 and a level 70 char group. I made it to level 67 in about a week time.
I'm afraid that was not your point. At least none that needed proof - nobody denied that actively playing is a bit faster than afk-leveling (then again it's not *that* much, if you consider that you can afk-level 24/7, which isn't possible by actively playing - unless you are a King of No-Life on amphetamines).
Its not just a bit faster. its a whole lot of faster. the arguement still stands, if you want to level up at a decent pace, AFK leveling is not an option.
Also, you must consider that I am playing (IAH's) Granado Espada, and you K2's Sword of the New World. And that your version has doubled (or tripled?) XP and droprates compared to mine.
I also played IAH's Granado Espada, and unless IAH changed the XP rate significantly since closed beta,t he difference between SotNW and GE is not that big. I leveled at roughtly the same pace.
(That aside, I gladly accept a 50% slower progress, if as a side-effect I don't have to waste any time at all into this boring semi-automated combat.
Going to a club, watching TV, sleeping, working... I can do all of it, instead of watching my toons fight and assisting them by pressing a hotkey every 20 seconds.
Thing is just, without a proper endgame there is not much of a reason to play a game without playing it. That is what I realized after 2 months, and what made me delete this game.)
Pressing a hotkey every 20 seconds? What team were you using? I'm using a Wizard - Musketeer - Scout setup and I'm constantly using skills. Even the Fighter - Elementalist - Scout setup I used required me to use skills constantly.
The combat feels automated because you chose to do so. You decided to auto level, that is YOUR decision. I'm always using skills, moving my character around to kill as many mobs as possible, buff, heal etc, and looking at the level - time comparison I mentioned above, it shows.
Either you are not really getting the point, or (as always) you are trying to push your opponent into a position he never really took in the first place, so you have an easier time defending yours.
When I talk about trying to *actively* play the game, which bores me so much that after a short while I choose to continue afk-leveling, telling me that being afk causes that automated feeling doesn't make much sense, now does it?
If I am not afk, I jump into a big crazy-spawn-room and throw in AoE spells, while running around (in a very limited and small radius, because first off the GE maps are small as phone boots, and because doing so while having claimed on of those "uber spawns" is NOT productive).
Now I hardly ever heal manually, and buffs only need ot be recast every ~15 minutes.
My point, however, remains: The combat is not involving, not interactive. I still hit space bar to start fighting, never seleting a single target manually (well, the game's nature wouldn't make that very viable). Non-AoE skills are USELESS in regular non-boss-combat.
As you already pointed out, clicking a mob every time becomes a chore because of the pace of the game. its similar to an RTS, where you won't click every enemy either because there are so many of them and they die so quickly. Because GE throws so many enemies at you,similar to an RTS this control scheme makes sense and I find your arguement a bit odd. I actually find the combat a lot more involving. If I stay in a place to long, I'll get overthrown. I have to keep using skills to kill mobs over and over again. I find the combat in a game say, World of Warcraft or Everquest, a lot less involving because that combat is more automated in my opinion.
With streams of monsters attacking and attacking, usually by the time you have executed the spell/skill against a single foe, that foe is dead already.
I agree with that, skills that are based on single opponets are pointless and are only useful for bosses and raids. But the vast majority of characters have access to Area of Effect skills, so I don't really see the problem in that.
Really, apart from buffs (in theory heals) and AOE skills I don't use any skills at all, while the whole rest of the combat feels totally automated. WAY more automated than in every other MMORPG. Actually more like Starcraft combat (only in Starcraft you manage resources, build bases and don't have to camp a single room/dungeon area for hours and hours).
Actually GE was inspired by Starcraft, Diablo and Ragnarok Online. its mentioned in one of the developers interviews, so comparing the combat to starcraft combat makes sense.
If you are too stubborn to admit it, so be it.
The weak and boring pvp endgame? well I guess thats your opinion, but with clan wars, a faction vs faction vs faction pvp system, and PVP that actually (Heaven forbids) is based on playerskill is one of the best features of Granado Espada.
Yes, the weak and boring pvp endgame.
What faction vs faction vs faction pvp system? Dude, you make it sound like DAoC (which, as a counter-example, shows how great a pvp endgame can be... GE is NOTHING like that). Stop deluding people like that.
I'm deluding people?
Fact: Faction vs Faction system is a combat system between multiple factions.
Fact: GE has a faction vs Faction system that includes combat.
There is nothing deluding about that. I make it sound like Dark Age of Camelot? I never even MENTIONED Dark age of Camelot. In fact, I didn't compare the Faction vs Faction system to any other game whatsoever.
While wondering where you are taking the 3rd faction from (or does K2 allow you to participate in colony wars as a Neutralist?) these Colony Wars are 2 hours per week.
Even if those colony wars were nearly as great as you're thinking (I am not, but that's a matter of preference), 2 hours per week are NOT a proper pvp endgame for me. In any possible case.
Outside of those 2hrs/week all that remains as a PvP endgame are duels.
And the Baron system on PK servers. With hardly anyone going Baron at all, because GE offers no reward or even stat tracking system for your PK accomplishments. (And Baron Level is just a temporary figure, decreasing with every killed monster... and in GE you can hardly ever avoid doing that, eh?).
A weekly based PVP event is very common in Asian MMO's, Its been done before in some of the most popular MMO's such as Ragnarok Online and Lineage 2, and I think few people would argue Lineage 2 has a poor pvp system. What you're describing is a pvp event, the rest of the PVP takes place in the overworld. on the US/EU servers, There are plenty of Baron PKing and Clan wars going on the SotNW servers, and I'm not even on the most populated server.
Not to mention that a Baron drops items, his victims do not. So once you are bold enough to go Baron, the whole map hunts you for items, with nothing to lose.
Sad to say that due to these restraints the largest SEA PK server (Cervantes) pretty much exactly feels like a carebear server.
And sad to say that I don't like this PK system at all. No reward system and not even good for some instant random-pk fun, because too much is at stake.
(On a PK server -- which always is an optional choice for players, so nobody is forced to play here -- either implement player looting or not. But only punishing the attacker, not anybody who could possibly kill him, even if he was outnumberd 20:1 with dropping equipment, is simply a farce. But anyway, I am not judging a PvP endgame by it's PK server ruleset, and GE's regular PvP endgame is no endgame. So I consider it being weak.)
Calling the GE pvp system to be based on player skill is kinda funny: I have never played a game with a larger impact of uber items, to compensate (or actually totally ignore) player skill.
Yes, I am talking about Elite Weapons/Armors, which basically emulate Unique Items like 20 levels higher. (Oh, and let's not forget AR/DR items, with the totally screwed up calculation of these stats).
Well, most MMORPGs value time played (equipment/level) over playerskill when it comes to PvP. GE is no exception, and actually seems even worse and more imbalanced than many (not all) other MMOs in that department.
Calling it a game with PvP based on playerskill is one of the most ridiculous things to say.
I have done a LOT of PVP in Granado Espada, I had just about the worst gear you could imagine and I did VERY well in PVP, despite my equipment. In GE, its important to use which skill in a certain situation against a certain opponent. Saying its not based on skill is rediculous, and I'm going to assume it is a lack of skill on your part.
But since you had communication problems
Oh, I am sure you don't have. With all those parties/groups going on, talkative players and zone/public chat channels GE is offering /irony off.
I have been leveling in a group most of the time, so I had no communication problems whatsoever.
I'm going to assume you never joined a clan, so you're missing out on all of those.
Apart from the fact that you are wrong (was in 2 large guilds), clans/guilds can NEVER be an argument for weak/no communication in an MMO. Clan/guild buddies always communicate with each other, that's not a point.
By your (flawed) definition, an MMO with communication issues it not possible.
But since you are dragging this in, communication among guild mates in GE is even less than in other MMOs, since most people "play" this game afk for the most time.
A developer can't force a player to talk to one another, and enforcing grouping play is not a good way to go to improve communication, even though there is grouping content in GE.
Again, Grouping is your decision. Despite popular belief, the game does NOT punish you for grouping (in fact, I believe there is an XP gain bonus for grouping). you're not grouping because thats your decision. I joined a clan and it fixed all of the socializing, chatting and grouping issues. Keep in mind this is still an asian game, a game based on clans.
Thing is that popular belief IS what defines whether groups are going on or not. In GE they are not.
That aside, the bonus only makes up for the losses, if you are killing at least twice as much in a 2 player group than you would alone. Other than that, XP-wise groups totally suck in GE. I tried it several times.
Either way, it does not fix the problem that players are generally not willing to group up and that communication in GE is almost non-existent. (Similar to post-Nightfall Guild Wars with the introduction of heroes, although at least there you got a zone chat in towns/outposts...).
I have been in groups most of the time, I encountered no lack of monsters to kill. If people in GE are not willing to group up..well, thats their decision. the game does not force you to solo, nor does it force you to group. If people aren't grouping, then its probably because they don't want to.
All things aside, if you love this game, that's great.
Just don't try to delude people by denying obvious weaknesses this game has. If you feel like defending this game, rather focus on it's strengths.
I'm not deluding anything. We have a different view on the subject, and we both have different tastes.
(Even GE has some of those, it's not like it only consists of weaknesses. For example the "solobility" of GE makes it a much more worthwile gaming experience during shorter gaming sessions. No hours of "lfg" or "group lf healer" before you can finally start hunting... or not. But the lack of communication among players IS an (inevitable) side-effect of this strength, which seems to be even more brutal in GE than in comparable MMOs with high soloability.)
And honestly, the MAJORITY of players (talking of experienced MMORPG players, who mainly played "western" p2p games) simply considers GE to be utterly boring, content-free, non-interactive etc. pp.
A bold claim that is not supported by anything. No, the posts you see on mmorpg.com and your friends ingame are NOT a representive of experienced MMORPG players. I suggest we pretend you never made this rediculous claim.
Telling them "no, the fighting system does not feel automated" is not the way to go, because they *feel* it that way.
Out of my guild (around 30 people with whom I have played several MMOs for years) I couldn't talk ANYONE into playing GE for more than a week. (Half of them already wanted to delete it after seeing the totally non-existent character creation). Even though I was kinda kinda euphoric about this game in the first weeks.
But yeah, it quickly turned out to be one ofthe worst MMO experiences I ever had since... Deicide Online.
If half of them deleted the game just because of character customization, then they should never play anything else. This is NOT western Everquest clone No.7, This game is NOT focused on roleplaying. Its a game that tries to bring RTS elements and MMORPG elements together. If you're expecting standard MMORPG gameplay, then this game is not for you.
From that post I'm going to assume:
1: You dislike the fact that we don't have to click on each mob individualy. to do this they would have to slow down the game.
2: You dlslike the fact that the game is so focused on AoE, you prefer to see the game make more use of single target skills.
...but then why not just play another game, because there are plenty of games like that.
Me and many other players like the game is now, its different. the game should not be westernized in an EQ clone. Sure it has its problems and it could use improvement in certain areas, but it seems you dislike what makes Granado Espada Granado Espada.
Oh, this is fun. Let's see, if we can make this even more cluttered with the formatting of your choice (legend: White = Original text from last post, Red = GameLoading, Yellow = Me).
Originally posted by GameLoading
Originally posted by Vasburg
Originally posted by GameLoading Actually you completely proved my point. it took you 2 months of afk leveling to create a level 60 and a level 70 char group. I made it to level 67 in about a week time.
I'm afraid that was not your point. At least none that needed proof - nobody denied that actively playing is a bit faster than afk-leveling (then again it's not *that* much, if you consider that you can afk-level 24/7, which isn't possible by actively playing - unless you are a King of No-Life on amphetamines).
Its not just a bit faster. its a whole lot of faster. the arguement still stands, if you want to level up at a decent pace, AFK leveling is not an option.
So the argument still stands, because I used "a bit"? No it does not. Nobody argues that AFK-leveling is faster. We already know. And since the majority uses this feature anyway, obviously nobody cares. So feel free to stop using this as your matchpoint.
Also, you must consider that I am playing (IAH's) Granado Espada, and you K2's Sword of the New World. And that your version has doubled (or tripled?) XP and droprates compared to mine.
I also played IAH's Granado Espada, and unless IAH changed the XP rate significantly since closed beta,t he difference between SotNW and GE is not that big. I leveled at roughtly the same pace.
Now, this is strange. I also played both, GE and SotNW Beta, and XP and droprates were SIGNIFICANTLY higher in K2's version. At least 50% higher, probably even doubled. K2 must have changed their rates to the original GE after release, eh?
(That aside, I gladly accept a 50% slower progress, if as a side-effect I don't have to waste any time at all into this boring semi-automated combat. Going to a club, watching TV, sleeping, working... I can do all of it, instead of watching my toons fight and assisting them by pressing a hotkey every 20 seconds. Thing is just, without a proper endgame there is not much of a reason to play a game without playing it. That is what I realized after 2 months, and what made me delete this game.)
Pressing a hotkey every 20 seconds? What team were you using? I'm using a Wizard - Musketeer - Scout setup and I'm constantly using skills. Even the Fighter - Elementalist - Scout setup I used required me to use skills constantly.
What a coincidence. I also used to run a Wizard - Musketeer - Scout setup. Constantly using skills? Even when I was alone at the most overwhelming power-spots, I hardly ever used more than Apocalypse and Quake. More than enough to kill dozens of monster streams. The Musk, well it depends on the weapon stance I was currently leveling. Aimed Shot, Freestyle Shot and Rifle had (almost) unusable AOEs, and as a result no Skills at all I ever used in PvE. Only Musk skill worthwile using in PvE probably is Bloody Overdrive, but neither was I using 2 Pistols all the time (only until I hit stance level 25) nor was I content with firing away 20000 bullets per hour. And my scout? 2-3 Buffs every 15 minutes (not much of a difference whether you use Meditation or not). Heals automatically. So yeah, Apocalypse, Quake - rest is running around to ball up monsters, picking up loot and getting bored.
Ah, what was your point again? That I probably don't use skills every 20 but every 10 seconds? Oh got it, your round then.
Oh wait, my point also was about the trade-off: Sacrificing the most valuable good any person has, their time, for progress in GE. Like I said, being able to do NOTHING (or let's say, nothing GE-related, but more important like mowing the lawn, helping your son at homework, pleasuring your gf, having a nap) while making progress in GE actually IS beneficial enough for me and (obviously) hundreds (or even thousands, if we count in all GE versions worldwide) other players, to sacrifice a faster progress through active gaming.
But I still don't even get your point. Are you still trying to prove that progress via afk-leveling is slower? Yea fine, nobody ever argued that. Fact is, that hardly anybody cares at all. That's why the majority "plays" GE without playing it (jGE and kGE being the "worst", K2 probably a bit less extensive, since it is the only p2p version of GE). Fact is, you *can* level up to 100 without ever doing so much as logging in an placing your toons at some spot. Probably sacrificing an hour or two every now and then to pick up some loot, so you can buy new equipment every 4 levels. Sad to say, since you can buy millions of vis for a couple of pennies (well, probably not in the K2 version, which is admittedly less bot-infested than other GE versions) some people don't even have to worry about picking up loot.
Originally posted by GameLoading The combat feels automated because you chose to do so. You decided to auto level, that is YOUR decision. I'm always using skills, moving my character around to kill as many mobs as possible, buff, heal etc, and looking at the level - time comparison I mentioned above, it shows.
Either you are not really getting the point, or (as always) you are trying to push your opponent into a position he never really took in the first place, so you have an easier time defending yours. When I talk about trying to *actively* play the game, which bores me so much that after a short while I choose to continue afk-leveling, telling me that being afk causes that automated feeling doesn't make much sense, now does it? If I am not afk, I jump into a big crazy-spawn-room and throw in AoE spells, while running around (in a very limited and small radius, because first off the GE maps are small as phone boots, and because doing so while having claimed on of those "uber spawns" is NOT productive). Now I hardly ever heal manually, and buffs only need ot be recast every ~15 minutes. My point, however, remains: The combat is not involving, not interactive. I still hit space bar to start fighting, never seleting a single target manually (well, the game's nature wouldn't make that very viable). Non-AoE skills are USELESS in regular non-boss-combat.
As you already pointed out, clicking a mob every time becomes a chore because of the pace of the game. its similar to an RTS, where you won't click every enemy either because there are so many of them and they die so quickly. Because GE throws so many enemies at you,similar to an RTS this control scheme makes sense and I find your arguement a bit odd. I actually find the combat a lot more involving. If I stay in a place to long, I'll get overthrown. I have to keep using skills to kill mobs over and over again. I find the combat in a game say, World of Warcraft or Everquest, a lot less involving because that combat is more automated in my opinion.
My "odd argument" was about clarifying that your argument ("The combat feels automated because you chose to do so") is pretty much nonsense (literally no sense in it, see above/original for details). Then I just explained (not argued) how I play the game when playing "active" (i.e. non-afk). Yes, it is an RTS control system. And given the nature of the game (control of 3 characters, LOADS of mobs) it's probably the only viable system to handle combat. I never denied that, I more or less explicitly admitted it. Seriously, given the MCC and spawnrates, I am glad I don't have to select every single mob. The micromanagement would make it the most annoying gaming experience ever. On the other hand, this system is commonly perceived as less involving, automated and simply boring. By me, by so many people on this board, by all my friends/guildmates who have been playing MMORPGs for years and years, by so many people on the official GE boards... Admittedly, the classical MMORPG fight system (DAoC, EQ1+2 etc.) is sort of automated as well. In another way, but yes. You usually pick a target, hit attack and wait. Spice things up with special attacks/spells (with Tabula Rasa and AoC supposedly going for a combat system with more of a "realtime" component). Still, and since you eagerly disagree let's call it a personal view, GE is even less involving and more automated. In games like EQ2 I have to pick a monster, probably have to pull it away from it's buddy, all the time watching for adds and patrols. Depending on the class, positioning might be an issue during the fights as well. Group fights have their own dynamics, we all know the Tank-Healer-Damage scheme. Anyway, the point is: At least I somehow feel like I *am* fighting, while in GE I feel like I *watch* fighting. It's the inflation of monsters (who would ever care about patrolling mobs or accidently 1-2 additional foes?) COMBINED with the press-space-and-watch fighting system. The toons even *move* for you during combat (Wizard doing a couple of steps aside, to cast an AOE with a maximum of monsters hit, tank running around automatically, scout running to party members for heals... just a few of many minor components which result in this "automated feeling" so many people have when playing GE). If you perceive GE's fighting to be *more* involving than that of other MMORPGs, so be it. You are however an obious minority. Actually, I would go as far as calling you an "exotic"...
With streams of monsters attacking and attacking, usually by the time you have executed the spell/skill against a single foe, that foe is dead already.
I agree with that, skills that are based on single opponets are pointless and are only useful for bosses and raids. But the vast majority of characters have access to Area of Effect skills, so I don't really see the problem in that.
This is not a problem. It just limits the combat options (for active playing) even more. Every character has 0-2 viable AOE skills to use, narrowing down the number of usable skills in a x-x-scout setup to 2-3 skills. Amazing and involving gameplay, right?
Really, apart from buffs (in theory heals) and AOE skills I don't use any skills at all, while the whole rest of the combat feels totally automated. WAY more automated than in every other MMORPG. Actually more like Starcraft combat (only in Starcraft you manage resources, build bases and don't have to camp a single room/dungeon area for hours and hours).
Actually GE was inspired by Starcraft, Diablo and Ragnarok Online. its mentioned in one of the developers interviews, so comparing the combat to starcraft combat makes sense.
I think you hardly need interview statements to see that GE was inspired by those games. What I wanted to say is that this combat system does not work for every game. It works for starcraft, it "works" but leads to boredom in GE. I love steaks. I love chocolate sauce. But I don't like steak with chocolate sauce.
Originally posted by GameLoading The weak and boring pvp endgame? well I guess thats your opinion, but with clan wars, a faction vs faction vs faction pvp system, and PVP that actually (Heaven forbids) is based on playerskill is one of the best features of Granado Espada.
Yes, the weak and boring pvp endgame. What faction vs faction vs faction pvp system? Dude, you make it sound like DAoC (which, as a counter-example, shows how great a pvp endgame can be... GE is NOTHING like that). Stop deluding people like that.
I'm deluding people? Fact: Faction vs Faction system is a combat system between multiple factions. Fact: GE has a faction vs Faction system that includes combat. There is nothing deluding about that. I make it sound like Dark Age of Camelot? I never even MENTIONED Dark age of Camelot. In fact, I didn't compare the Faction vs Faction system to any other game whatsoever.
I did not say you are comparing it to anything. I never said you mentioned DAoC. I did, as a plastic example for a real "Faction vs Faction" that involves more than some skirmishes 2 hours per week, where actually only the top guilds can really participate. In a nutshell, something that people usually assume when they hear "Faction vs Faction PvP". Other than those colony wars, there is no PvP AT ALL between Royalists and Republicans. 2 hours per week. That's the Faction vs Faction system of GE. I call it weak, because I have played titles like Dark Age of Camelot (or even Anarchy Online or Everquest 2 on a PvP server). Period.
While wondering where you are taking the 3rd faction from (or does K2 allow you to participate in colony wars as a Neutralist?) these Colony Wars are 2 hours per week. Even if those colony wars were nearly as great as you're thinking (I am not, but that's a matter of preference), 2 hours per week are NOT a proper pvp endgame for me. In any possible case. Outside of those 2hrs/week all that remains as a PvP endgame are duels. And the Baron system on PK servers. With hardly anyone going Baron at all, because GE offers no reward or even stat tracking system for your PK accomplishments. (And Baron Level is just a temporary figure, decreasing with every killed monster... and in GE you can hardly ever avoid doing that, eh?).
A weekly based PVP event is very common in Asian MMO's, Its been done before in some of the most popular MMO's such as Ragnarok Online and Lineage 2, and I think few people would argue Lineage 2 has a poor pvp system. What you're describing is a pvp event, the rest of the PVP takes place in the overworld. on the US/EU servers, There are plenty of Baron PKing and Clan wars going on the SotNW servers, and I'm not even on the most populated server.
Eating dogs is also very common in Asia, still that doesn't mean that I like the taste of fried dog-legs (no racism intended, just trying to illustrate your "logic"). I never played Lineage 2 (well, the Beta, but that's about it) so I don't call it's PvP system anything. If it's exactly like GE's system, I would also call it weak. Definitely. But from what I've heard, LA2 has a PK system on every server, not just on special ruleset servers. So it must be considered as core-component of the game itself and it's PvP endgame, not just an option. So we already are comparing apples to peaches. Also, the PK system works way better in LA2 than in GE, since its gameworld is not cluttered into hundreds of tiny little ego-shooter-sized maps (hundreds if you count 3 instances per map) but more like a real persistent MMORPG world. The "PvP event" I was apparently describing... I don't care what it's called, seriously. I really don't care about what other Asian MMORPGs (which I would probably call junk anyway) do. Also, unless it's essential part of the game or at least REWARDING, I don't care about random PKing either when I rate a game's PvP ENDGAME. In GE PKing is just a non-rewarding frag-fest (might as well play Quake for that kind of PvP) where the attacker has everything to lose and nothing to gain. No PvP progression, no PvP rewards, no chance of looting victims... PK just for the fun of it. Oh, and if you drop your weapon or armor, don't worry, just remember it's just for fun. Anyway, when making statements like "weak PvP ENDGAME" I don't care about some friggin' "PvP event". That might be a nice addition for a game that already has an endgame, but it is not a sufficient PvP endgame of it's own. 2 hours as week... no permanent fight between Royalists and Republicans, not even in special PvP-enabled zones. No PvP reward system or even progression whatsoever. I still call it weak. Your argument that is called "PvP event" helps as much as pointing out that other Asian MMOs do it as well. These were you sole arguments, right? Tell me if I have overlooked something.
Not to mention that a Baron drops items, his victims do not. So once you are bold enough to go Baron, the whole map hunts you for items, with nothing to lose. Sad to say that due to these restraints the largest SEA PK server (Cervantes) pretty much exactly feels like a carebear server. And sad to say that I don't like this PK system at all. No reward system and not even good for some instant random-pk fun, because too much is at stake. (On a PK server -- which always is an optional choice for players, so nobody is forced to play here -- either implement player looting or not. But only punishing the attacker, not anybody who could possibly kill him, even if he was outnumberd 20:1 with dropping equipment, is simply a farce. But anyway, I am not judging a PvP endgame by it's PK server ruleset, and GE's regular PvP endgame is no endgame. So I consider it being weak.) Calling the GE pvp system to be based on player skill is kinda funny: I have never played a game with a larger impact of uber items, to compensate (or actually totally ignore) player skill. Yes, I am talking about Elite Weapons/Armors, which basically emulate Unique Items like 20 levels higher. (Oh, and let's not forget AR/DR items, with the totally screwed up calculation of these stats). Well, most MMORPGs value time played (equipment/level) over playerskill when it comes to PvP. GE is no exception, and actually seems even worse and more imbalanced than many (not all) other MMOs in that department. Calling it a game with PvP based on playerskill is one of the most ridiculous things to say.
I have done a LOT of PVP in Granado Espada, I had just about the worst gear you could imagine and I did VERY well in PVP, despite my equipment. In GE, its important to use which skill in a certain situation against a certain opponent. Saying its not based on skill is rediculous, and I'm going to assume it is a lack of skill on your part.
Oh, we are going for polemics now? Fine with me: I'm going to assume that you are only fighting newbies who are at least 30 levels lower than you. I'm going to assume that you have never read the endless rants of high level Duel players with lots of experience. I'm going to assume that you have never ever fought somebody of your level, but with Elite weapons and armors. I'm going to assume that you really live under the delusion that GE's PvP requires a PhD in rocket science to succeed. So, when we're done exchanging childish polemics and accusations, why don't you explicitly EXPLAIN to me, why GE (above all other MMORPGs ever created) requires playerskill?
Originally posted by GameLoading But since you had communication problems
Oh, I am sure you don't have. With all those parties/groups going on, talkative players and zone/public chat channels GE is offering /irony off.
I have been leveling in a group most of the time, so I had no communication problems whatsoever.
I have been eating dinner with Elvis and the Pope tonight. Sending you their regards. Seriously, hardly anyone -- even the most die-hard GE-fanbois -- ever denied that GE is one of the most communication-unfriendly MMOs produced in the last 28 years. Yet you do. In a "but I have..." way.
Originally posted by GameLoading I'm going to assume you never joined a clan, so you're missing out on all of those.
Apart from the fact that you are wrong (was in 2 large guilds), clans/guilds can NEVER be an argument for weak/no communication in an MMO. Clan/guild buddies always communicate with each other, that's not a point. By your (flawed) definition, an MMO with communication issues it not possible. But since you are dragging this in, communication among guild mates in GE is even less than in other MMOs, since most people "play" this game afk for the most time.
A developer can't force a player to talk to one another, and enforcing grouping play is not a good way to go to improve communication, even though there is grouping content in GE.
He can't force players to talk to each other, but he can ENCOURAGE them to do so by delivering the VERY BASIC tools: Common public chat channels, chat channels where all players in a certain zone can talk to each other etc. GE doesn't do that.
Combined with a game where about 100% of the "normal" (non-raid) can be soloed, this makes up for a deadly non-communication combination. I don't say that enforcing grouping is a good way to improve communication - at least not "good" in a win-win-situation-like way. However, the lack of any grouping necessity (which brings along certain advantages) also brings along a lack of communication. A simple tradeoff that can be ovserved in any MMO, one way or the other. The question is: If you develop an MMO with high (almost 100%) soloability, what can you do to encourage people to still communicate with each other, so the game doesn't just feel like a single player game? GE's answer to this question is: Nothing. But was that even the point? Or was it rather your "EVERY MMO that supports guilds can't have weak communication among players" theory? Honestly, joining a guild (or Clan like you call it, although literally speaking in GE your single family is a "clan") resolves the communication problems in about every possible game. Even Tetris Online. 10 friends who are connected via Vent and headsets, playing Oblivion each for their own and talking about it, doesn't make Oblivion a great Multiplayer game with great communication among players.
Originally posted by GameLoading Again, Grouping is your decision. Despite popular belief, the game does NOT punish you for grouping (in fact, I believe there is an XP gain bonus for grouping). you're not grouping because thats your decision. I joined a clan and it fixed all of the socializing, chatting and grouping issues. Keep in mind this is still an asian game, a game based on clans.
Thing is that popular belief IS what defines whether groups are going on or not. In GE they are not. That aside, the bonus only makes up for the losses, if you are killing at least twice as much in a 2 player group than you would alone. Other than that, XP-wise groups totally suck in GE. I tried it several times. Either way, it does not fix the problem that players are generally not willing to group up and that communication in GE is almost non-existent. (Similar to post-Nightfall Guild Wars with the introduction of heroes, although at least there you got a zone chat in towns/outposts...).
I have been in groups most of the time, I encountered no lack of monsters to kill. If people in GE are not willing to group up..well, thats their decision. the game does not force you to solo, nor does it force you to group. If people aren't grouping, then its probably because they don't want to.
Sometimes I wonder how absurd your way of defending GE's weaknesses -- weaknesses even the die-hard fanbois would hardly ever dare to deny -- can possibly get. "No lack of monsters", "I have been in groups", "My favorite color is blue"... Who could possibly care? Fact is: The VAST majority of GE players does everything solo, groups are a total RARITY. Heck, this isn't even a bad thing per se, but why deny it with some itty bitty arguments like "I have been in groups"? It's not even important *why* people don't group (in fact, because group XP sucks compared to solo XP, which you -- who was so concerned about the XP advantage of non-afk-leveling -- should have valued most of all; but like I said, the why is of no concern) but WHAT is actually going on in GE. And that would certainly not involve groups. We don't care why people don't do it, who's decision it is... actually not even if there is a lot of grouping in GE or not. But that GE is a complete communication desert.
All things aside, if you love this game, that's great. Just don't try to delude people by denying obvious weaknesses this game has. If you feel like defending this game, rather focus on it's strengths.
I'm not deluding anything. We have a different view on the subject, and we both have different tastes.
(Even GE has some of those, it's not like it only consists of weaknesses. For example the "solobility" of GE makes it a much more worthwile gaming experience during shorter gaming sessions. No hours of "lfg" or "group lf healer" before you can finally start hunting... or not. But the lack of communication among players IS an (inevitable) side-effect of this strength, which seems to be even more brutal in GE than in comparable MMOs with high soloability.) And honestly, the MAJORITY of players (talking of experienced MMORPG players, who mainly played "western" p2p games) simply considers GE to be utterly boring, content-free, non-interactive etc. pp.
A bold claim that is not supported by anything. No, the posts you see on mmorpg.com and your friends ingame are NOT a representive of experienced MMORPG players. I suggest we pretend you never made this rediculous claim.
Oh yes, the posts on MMORPG.com (the worldwide largest MMORPG communication platform), 30 friends who have been playing MMOs for 5-10 years, the posts on official GE boards etc. are NOT representative of experienced MMORPG players. We should ask you, the secret League of GE Fanbois, lovers of Korean grind-clones, people who never played a MMORPG before GE and all the f2p-only cheapskates/freeloaders, who can't even imagine what a good MMO could be like. That would be more representative, right? Do me a favor, open your eyes.
Telling them "no, the fighting system does not feel automated" is not the way to go, because they *feel* it that way. Out of my guild (around 30 people with whom I have played several MMOs for years) I couldn't talk ANYONE into playing GE for more than a week. (Half of them already wanted to delete it after seeing the totally non-existent character creation). Even though I was kinda kinda euphoric about this game in the first weeks. But yeah, it quickly turned out to be one ofthe worst MMO experiences I ever had since... Deicide Online.
If half of them deleted the game just because of character customization, then they should never play anything else. This is NOT western Everquest clone No.7, This game is NOT focused on roleplaying. Its a game that tries to bring RTS elements and MMORPG elements together. If you're expecting standard MMORPG gameplay, then this game is not for you.
Yes, on that we totally agree. This is not Everquest clone No.7 but Korean grind clone No.288. It does not include any elements of RP, so we should just strike out 2 letters from MMORPG. And yes, this game certainly is not for me. That's why I already deleted it, remember?
From that post I'm going to assume:
(Oh yes, another sentence that starts with "I'm going to assume"... I wonder if it's going to be as full of ridiculous assumptions, accusations and theories based on statements never made in the first place like the other ones?)
1: You dislike the fact that we don't have to click on each mob individualy. to do this they would have to slow down the game.
No, Mister Polemics, I do NOT dislike the fact that we don't have to click on each mob individualy. I wonder where you are deriving that silly assumption #28 from, but let me know where I either im- or explicitly stated anything like that. I do, however, dislike the fact that Granado Espada has the most boring, non-involving, non-interactive and fully automated sit-and-watch-your-toons-fight-and-go-afk-for-2-hours-or-3-days-if-you-like combat system. I'd like to think there is a slight difference between those two, but that might be just me.
2: You dlslike the fact that the game is so focused on AoE, you prefer to see the game make more use of single target skills.
You know what? There is one thing I have to grant you. You have the AMAZING and surprising ability to constantly surpass yourself. At least when it comes to making ridiculous assumptions, but hey. Oh yeah, by the way, my answer is the same as in 1.
...but then why not just play another game, because there are plenty of games like that.
Since I already stated multiple times that I have deleted Granado Espada from my hard disk drive, I assumed that would imply that I am no longer playing this game. Guess I was wrong, so here it is officially and just for you: I actually don't play Granado Espada anymore! (d'oh). I play other games.
Me and many other players like the game is now, its different. the game should not be westernized in an EQ clone. Sure it has its problems and it could use improvement in certain areas, but it seems you dislike what makes Granado Espada Granado Espada.
I am happy for you and your friends (unfortunately me and my friends think that GE is one of the worst MMORPGs ever made, but to each their own). I really am, but I already stated that in my last post.
Oh, this is fun. Let's see, if we can make this even more cluttered with the formatting of your choice (legend: White = Original text from last post, Red = GameLoading, Yellow = Me).
Originally posted by GameLoading
Originally posted by Vasburg
Originally posted by GameLoading
Actually you completely proved my point. it took you 2 months of afk leveling to create a level 60 and a level 70 char group. I made it to level 67 in about a week time.
I'm afraid that was not your point. At least none that needed proof - nobody denied that actively playing is a bit faster than afk-leveling (then again it's not *that* much, if you consider that you can afk-level 24/7, which isn't possible by actively playing - unless you are a King of No-Life on amphetamines).
Its not just a bit faster. its a whole lot of faster. the arguement still stands, if you want to level up at a decent pace, AFK leveling is not an option.
So the argument still stands, because I used "a bit"? No it does not. Nobody argues that AFK-leveling is faster. We already know. And since the majority uses this feature anyway, obviously nobody cares. So feel free to stop using this as your matchpoint.
You know if they followed my suggestion of using hard monsters that give great exp, then AFK leveling wouldn't be a dilemma. However, one design flaw I found that create this grind is how exp is distributed. You can have an action filled moment of taking down a boss, but you only get 5% more exp the a normal mob. If the boss gave maybe 10% to level then it would be a whole different story. This is the real reason people AFK level, there is no challenge requiring concentration which is the games weak point. It also hinders challenging the player since the make the most exp killing monsters of the same level. If your level 30 and kill level 44 monsters, your making only 20% of what you would if you killed those monsters at 44.
Also, you must consider that I am playing (IAH's) Granado Espada, and you K2's Sword of the New World. And that your version has doubled (or tripled?) XP and droprates compared to mine.
I also played IAH's Granado Espada, and unless IAH changed the XP rate significantly since closed beta,t he difference between SotNW and GE is not that big. I leveled at roughtly the same pace.
Now, this is strange. I also played both, GE and SotNW Beta, and XP and droprates were SIGNIFICANTLY higher in K2's version. At least 50% higher, probably even doubled. K2 must have changed their rates to the original GE after release, eh?
Actually K2Networks pulled a dipshit move on release. They severely nerfed exp gain rates on release. It infact has the worst exp rates of any GE version now.
(That aside, I gladly accept a 50% slower progress, if as a side-effect I don't have to waste any time at all into this boring semi-automated combat.
Going to a club, watching TV, sleeping, working... I can do all of it, instead of watching my toons fight and assisting them by pressing a hotkey every 20 seconds.
Thing is just, without a proper endgame there is not much of a reason to play a game without playing it. That is what I realized after 2 months, and what made me delete this game.)
Pressing a hotkey every 20 seconds? What team were you using? I'm using a Wizard - Musketeer - Scout setup and I'm constantly using skills. Even the Fighter - Elementalist - Scout setup I used required me to use skills constantly.
What a coincidence. I also used to run a Wizard - Musketeer - Scout setup. Constantly using skills? Even when I was alone at the most overwhelming power-spots, I hardly ever used more than Apocalypse and Quake. More than enough to kill dozens of monster streams. The Musk, well it depends on the weapon stance I was currently leveling. Aimed Shot, Freestyle Shot and Rifle had (almost) unusable AOEs, and as a result no Skills at all I ever used in PvE.
Only Musk skill worthwile using in PvE probably is Bloody Overdrive, but neither was I using 2 Pistols all the time (only until I hit stance level 25) nor was I content with firing away 20000 bullets per hour.
And my scout? 2-3 Buffs every 15 minutes (not much of a difference whether you use Meditation or not). Heals automatically.
So yeah, Apocalypse, Quake - rest is running around to ball up monsters, picking up loot and getting bored.
Ah, what was your point again? That I probably don't use skills every 20 but every 10 seconds? Oh got it, your round then.
Oh wait, my point also was about the trade-off: Sacrificing the most valuable good any person has, their time, for progress in GE.
Like I said, being able to do NOTHING (or let's say, nothing GE-related, but more important like mowing the lawn, helping your son at homework, pleasuring your gf, having a nap) while making progress in GE actually IS beneficial enough for me and (obviously) hundreds (or even thousands, if we count in all GE versions worldwide) other players, to sacrifice a faster progress through active gaming.
But I still don't even get your point. Are you still trying to prove that progress via afk-leveling is slower? Yea fine, nobody ever argued that.
Fact is, that hardly anybody cares at all. That's why the majority "plays" GE without playing it (jGE and kGE being the "worst", K2 probably a bit less extensive, since it is the only p2p version of GE).
Fact is, you *can* level up to 100 without ever doing so much as logging in an placing your toons at some spot. Probably sacrificing an hour or two every now and then to pick up some loot, so you can buy new equipment every 4 levels.
Sad to say, since you can buy millions of vis for a couple of pennies (well, probably not in the K2 version, which is admittedly less bot-infested than other GE versions) some people don't even have to worry about picking up loot.
I know what your getting at that killing the monsters feels tright and unrewarding. However, one great way I discovered to challenge yourself is to do it solo. You will be spamming your skills then like when you run into a Sigmund. Not to mention all the food you will eat. Also exp growth is descent.
The bigger difference is the players. I don't think the sgGE has Baron Buffs installed. So there is no reward for finding afk levelers and PKing them for buffs. If they add baron mode you know there will be a decrease in AFK levelers after the reach pkable status.
Originally posted by GameLoading
The combat feels automated because you chose to do so. You decided to auto level, that is YOUR decision. I'm always using skills, moving my character around to kill as many mobs as possible, buff, heal etc, and looking at the level - time comparison I mentioned above, it shows.
Either you are not really getting the point, or (as always) you are trying to push your opponent into a position he never really took in the first place, so you have an easier time defending yours.
When I talk about trying to *actively* play the game, which bores me so much that after a short while I choose to continue afk-leveling, telling me that being afk causes that automated feeling doesn't make much sense, now does it?
If I am not afk, I jump into a big crazy-spawn-room and throw in AoE spells, while running around (in a very limited and small radius, because first off the GE maps are small as phone boots, and because doing so while having claimed on of those "uber spawns" is NOT productive).
Now I hardly ever heal manually, and buffs only need ot be recast every ~15 minutes.
My point, however, remains: The combat is not involving, not interactive. I still hit space bar to start fighting, never seleting a single target manually (well, the game's nature wouldn't make that very viable). Non-AoE skills are USELESS in regular non-boss-combat.
As you already pointed out, clicking a mob every time becomes a chore because of the pace of the game. its similar to an RTS, where you won't click every enemy either because there are so many of them and they die so quickly. Because GE throws so many enemies at you,similar to an RTS this control scheme makes sense and I find your arguement a bit odd. I actually find the combat a lot more involving. If I stay in a place to long, I'll get overthrown. I have to keep using skills to kill mobs over and over again. I find the combat in a game say, World of Warcraft or Everquest, a lot less involving because that combat is more automated in my opinion.
My "odd argument" was about clarifying that your argument ("The combat feels automated because you chose to do so") is pretty much nonsense (literally no sense in it, see above/original for details). Then I just explained (not argued) how I play the game when playing "active" (i.e. non-afk).
Yes, it is an RTS control system. And given the nature of the game (control of 3 characters, LOADS of mobs) it's probably the only viable system to handle combat. I never denied that, I more or less explicitly admitted it. Seriously, given the MCC and spawnrates, I am glad I don't have to select every single mob. The micromanagement would make it the most annoying gaming experience ever.
On the other hand, this system is commonly perceived as less involving, automated and simply boring. By me, by so many people on this board, by all my friends/guildmates who have been playing MMORPGs for years and years, by so many people on the official GE boards...
Admittedly, the classical MMORPG fight system (DAoC, EQ1+2 etc.) is sort of automated as well. In another way, but yes. You usually pick a target, hit attack and wait. Spice things up with special attacks/spells (with Tabula Rasa and AoC supposedly going for a combat system with more of a "realtime" component).
Still, and since you eagerly disagree let's call it a personal view, GE is even less involving and more automated. In games like EQ2 I have to pick a monster, probably have to pull it away from it's buddy, all the time watching for adds and patrols. Depending on the class, positioning might be an issue during the fights as well. Group fights have their own dynamics, we all know the Tank-Healer-Damage scheme.
Anyway, the point is: At least I somehow feel like I *am* fighting, while in GE I feel like I *watch* fighting.
It's the inflation of monsters (who would ever care about patrolling mobs or accidently 1-2 additional foes?) COMBINED with the press-space-and-watch fighting system. The toons even *move* for you during combat (Wizard doing a couple of steps aside, to cast an AOE with a maximum of monsters hit, tank running around automatically, scout running to party members for heals... just a few of many minor components which result in this "automated feeling" so many people have when playing GE).
If you perceive GE's fighting to be *more* involving than that of other MMORPGs, so be it. You are however an obious minority. Actually, I would go as far as calling you an "exotic"...
One thing to remember about the combat system is that it can be very involving at times if you have the need to use it. It really takes challenging yourself like only using 1 character to truly understand. You are constantly running using skills hiding in corners and advancing at a pace. However, the game simply lacks challenge when you add 3 characters. Usually I just dash right into the center of a room and hit space bar, then move to the next one. Having less mobs but better quality and exp would definetly make this game better.
With streams of monsters attacking and attacking, usually by the time you have executed the spell/skill against a single foe, that foe is dead already.
I agree with that, skills that are based on single opponets are pointless and are only useful for bosses and raids. But the vast majority of characters have access to Area of Effect skills, so I don't really see the problem in that.
This is not a problem. It just limits the combat options (for active playing) even more. Every character has 0-2 viable AOE skills to use, narrowing down the number of usable skills in a x-x-scout setup to 2-3 skills. Amazing and involving gameplay, right?
Its good to note that Single Use skills are great to use in the instance quests and PVP as well. Since they do more then twice the damage as AOE spells and have some affects attached.
Really, apart from buffs (in theory heals) and AOE skills I don't use any skills at all, while the whole rest of the combat feels totally automated. WAY more automated than in every other MMORPG. Actually more like Starcraft combat (only in Starcraft you manage resources, build bases and don't have to camp a single room/dungeon area for hours and hours).
Actually GE was inspired by Starcraft, Diablo and Ragnarok Online. its mentioned in one of the developers interviews, so comparing the combat to starcraft combat makes sense.
I think you hardly need interview statements to see that GE was inspired by those games. What I wanted to say is that this combat system does not work for every game. It works for starcraft, it "works" but leads to boredom in GE.
I love steaks. I love chocolate sauce. But I don't like steak with chocolate sauce.
It'll be interesting with how they update the game. Its still a little in its infancy and needs to mature as a game. Like I mentioned before, the engine runs smooth and is highly optimized. That took alot of work. Now that its finished they can expand on gameplay and content. Given time it may be alot better. Its combat system can be quite a feat to master, its just that there is no challenge in it. Maybe one day they will give rewards and exp for PVPing which would definetly add to that challenge part.
Originally posted by GameLoading
The weak and boring pvp endgame? well I guess thats your opinion, but with clan wars, a faction vs faction vs faction pvp system, and PVP that actually (Heaven forbids) is based on playerskill is one of the best features of Granado Espada.
Yes, the weak and boring pvp endgame.
What faction vs faction vs faction pvp system? Dude, you make it sound like DAoC (which, as a counter-example, shows how great a pvp endgame can be... GE is NOTHING like that). Stop deluding people like that.
I'm deluding people?
Fact: Faction vs Faction system is a combat system between multiple factions.
Fact: GE has a faction vs Faction system that includes combat.
There is nothing deluding about that. I make it sound like Dark Age of Camelot? I never even MENTIONED Dark age of Camelot. In fact, I didn't compare the Faction vs Faction system to any other game whatsoever.
I did not say you are comparing it to anything. I never said you mentioned DAoC. I did, as a plastic example for a real "Faction vs Faction" that involves more than some skirmishes 2 hours per week, where actually only the top guilds can really participate. In a nutshell, something that people usually assume when they hear "Faction vs Faction PvP".
Other than those colony wars, there is no PvP AT ALL between Royalists and Republicans. 2 hours per week. That's the Faction vs Faction system of GE.
I call it weak, because I have played titles like Dark Age of Camelot (or even Anarchy Online or Everquest 2 on a PvP server). Period.
The faction vs faction system in its current state is very un-refined. But you have to remember, the Faction v Faction wasn't GE's main feature, it was the MCC system. On the other hand DAoC it was. It takes time to really perfect a sub-feature. Just look at EQ2, it also needed time to flesh out its sub-features and be playable. Not to mention the heavy set grind at 20. The reason its only a few times a week is to bulk up players. They want battles to be epic in scale. You can't really do this if its a 24/7 occurance.
While wondering where you are taking the 3rd faction from (or does K2 allow you to participate in colony wars as a Neutralist?) these Colony Wars are 2 hours per week.
Even if those colony wars were nearly as great as you're thinking (I am not, but that's a matter of preference), 2 hours per week are NOT a proper pvp endgame for me. In any possible case.
Outside of those 2hrs/week all that remains as a PvP endgame are duels.
And the Baron system on PK servers. With hardly anyone going Baron at all, because GE offers no reward or even stat tracking system for your PK accomplishments. (And Baron Level is just a temporary figure, decreasing with every killed monster... and in GE you can hardly ever avoid doing that, eh?).
A weekly based PVP event is very common in Asian MMO's, Its been done before in some of the most popular MMO's such as Ragnarok Online and Lineage 2, and I think few people would argue Lineage 2 has a poor pvp system. What you're describing is a pvp event, the rest of the PVP takes place in the overworld. on the US/EU servers, There are plenty of Baron PKing and Clan wars going on the SotNW servers, and I'm not even on the most populated server.
Eating dogs is also very common in Asia, still that doesn't mean that I like the taste of fried dog-legs (no racism intended, just trying to illustrate your "logic"). I never played Lineage 2 (well, the Beta, but that's about it) so I don't call it's PvP system anything. If it's exactly like GE's system, I would also call it weak. Definitely.
But from what I've heard, LA2 has a PK system on every server, not just on special ruleset servers. So it must be considered as core-component of the game itself and it's PvP endgame, not just an option. So we already are comparing apples to peaches.
Also, the PK system works way better in LA2 than in GE, since its gameworld is not cluttered into hundreds of tiny little ego-shooter-sized maps (hundreds if you count 3 instances per map) but more like a real persistent MMORPG world.
The "PvP event" I was apparently describing... I don't care what it's called, seriously. I really don't care about what other Asian MMORPGs (which I would probably call junk anyway) do. Also, unless it's essential part of the game or at least REWARDING, I don't care about random PKing either when I rate a game's PvP ENDGAME.
In GE PKing is just a non-rewarding frag-fest (might as well play Quake for that kind of PvP) where the attacker has everything to lose and nothing to gain. No PvP progression, no PvP rewards, no chance of looting victims... PK just for the fun of it. Oh, and if you drop your weapon or armor, don't worry, just remember it's just for fun.
Anyway, when making statements like "weak PvP ENDGAME" I don't care about some friggin' "PvP event". That might be a nice addition for a game that already has an endgame, but it is not a sufficient PvP endgame of it's own.
2 hours as week... no permanent fight between Royalists and Republicans, not even in special PvP-enabled zones. No PvP reward system or even progression whatsoever.
I still call it weak. Your argument that is called "PvP event" helps as much as pointing out that other Asian MMOs do it as well.
These were you sole arguments, right? Tell me if I have overlooked something.
This post is tiring. Right now you guys are just repeating yourselves over and over again. Give the game time to add on more features. Its not like any mmo was released with everything you ever dreamed of. It was built up in updates like PVP for most games was purely made from updates. Also there are only a handful of mmos that even reward you for PVP, and most of them come from the East. The problem with rewarding PVP is that unless its regulated there is a potential for abuse.
Not to mention that a Baron drops items, his victims do not. So once you are bold enough to go Baron, the whole map hunts you for items, with nothing to lose.
Sad to say that due to these restraints the largest SEA PK server (Cervantes) pretty much exactly feels like a carebear server.
And sad to say that I don't like this PK system at all. No reward system and not even good for some instant random-pk fun, because too much is at stake.
(On a PK server -- which always is an optional choice for players, so nobody is forced to play here -- either implement player looting or not. But only punishing the attacker, not anybody who could possibly kill him, even if he was outnumberd 20:1 with dropping equipment, is simply a farce. But anyway, I am not judging a PvP endgame by it's PK server ruleset, and GE's regular PvP endgame is no endgame. So I consider it being weak.)
Calling the GE pvp system to be based on player skill is kinda funny: I have never played a game with a larger impact of uber items, to compensate (or actually totally ignore) player skill.
Yes, I am talking about Elite Weapons/Armors, which basically emulate Unique Items like 20 levels higher. (Oh, and let's not forget AR/DR items, with the totally screwed up calculation of these stats).
Well, most MMORPGs value time played (equipment/level) over playerskill when it comes to PvP. GE is no exception, and actually seems even worse and more imbalanced than many (not all) other MMOs in that department.
Calling it a game with PvP based on playerskill is one of the most ridiculous things to say.
I have done a LOT of PVP in Granado Espada, I had just about the worst gear you could imagine and I did VERY well in PVP, despite my equipment. In GE, its important to use which skill in a certain situation against a certain opponent. Saying its not based on skill is rediculous, and I'm going to assume it is a lack of skill on your part.
Oh, we are going for polemics now? Fine with me:
I'm going to assume that you are only fighting newbies who are at least 30 levels lower than you.
I'm going to assume that you have never read the endless rants of high level Duel players with lots of experience.
I'm going to assume that you have never ever fought somebody of your level, but with Elite weapons and armors.
I'm going to assume that you really live under the delusion that GE's PvP requires a PhD in rocket science to succeed.
So, when we're done exchanging childish polemics and accusations, why don't you explicitly EXPLAIN to me, why GE (above all other MMORPGs ever created) requires playerskill?
Because you actually need a mental pulse to PVP. Not like some of these mmos like WoW where all that matters is level. If you are skilled enough you can kill someone 20 levels higher, or outnumbered several to one. Also you control a team rather then a single individual which significantly alters the gameplay. Ontop of this there are many stances with strengths and weaknesses that you will not be able to tell what the other player is going to do just by looking at them. Its not like you just stand there and hit hotkeys until someone falls. You can go invisible, lay out a bunch or traps then fortify yourself behind some turrets, then backstab thier scout while they are distracted with the guy hiding behind the turrets.
Originally posted by GameLoading
But since you had communication problems
Oh, I am sure you don't have. With all those parties/groups going on, talkative players and zone/public chat channels GE is offering /irony off.
I have been leveling in a group most of the time, so I had no communication problems whatsoever.
I have been eating dinner with Elvis and the Pope tonight. Sending you their regards.
Seriously, hardly anyone -- even the most die-hard GE-fanbois -- ever denied that GE is one of the most communication-unfriendly MMOs produced in the last 28 years. Yet you do. In a "but I have..." way.
No argument there, everyone I talked to has noted the communication problem. Even if your actively playing you sometimes won't notice messages for 5 minutes. I think it has alot to do with the UI layout. Even the guy I get alot of info from, mugengia, says that the communication is bad.
Originally posted by GameLoading
I'm going to assume you never joined a clan, so you're missing out on all of those.
Apart from the fact that you are wrong (was in 2 large guilds), clans/guilds can NEVER be an argument for weak/no communication in an MMO. Clan/guild buddies always communicate with each other, that's not a point.
By your (flawed) definition, an MMO with communication issues it not possible.
But since you are dragging this in, communication among guild mates in GE is even less than in other MMOs, since most people "play" this game afk for the most time.
A developer can't force a player to talk to one another, and enforcing grouping play is not a good way to go to improve communication, even though there is grouping content in GE.
He can't force players to talk to each other, but he can ENCOURAGE them to do so by delivering the VERY BASIC tools: Common public chat channels, chat channels where all players in a certain zone can talk to each other etc.
GE doesn't do that.
Combined with a game where about 100% of the "normal" (non-raid) can be soloed, this makes up for a deadly non-communication combination.
I don't say that enforcing grouping is a good way to improve communication - at least not "good" in a win-win-situation-like way. However, the lack of any grouping necessity (which brings along certain advantages) also brings along a lack of communication. A simple tradeoff that can be ovserved in any MMO, one way or the other.
The question is: If you develop an MMO with high (almost 100%) soloability, what can you do to encourage people to still communicate with each other, so the game doesn't just feel like a single player game?
GE's answer to this question is: Nothing.
But was that even the point? Or was it rather your "EVERY MMO that supports guilds can't have weak communication among players" theory?
Honestly, joining a guild (or Clan like you call it, although literally speaking in GE your single family is a "clan") resolves the communication problems in about every possible game. Even Tetris Online. 10 friends who are connected via Vent and headsets, playing Oblivion each for their own and talking about it, doesn't make Oblivion a great Multiplayer game with great communication among players.
You actually are forced to group when you do missions like Spotlight. You just can't do those alone. The tools they have for partying are actually pretty descent, like scouts will heal people within a party, and its loot auto-splits. So you can make an AFK party with 1 person active in shifts picking up loot. However, you are right. The chat tools just aren't there. Its very surprising because its a Hakkyu Kim game. He practically invented the community driven mmorpg.
Originally posted by GameLoading
Again, Grouping is your decision. Despite popular belief, the game does NOT punish you for grouping (in fact, I believe there is an XP gain bonus for grouping). you're not grouping because thats your decision. I joined a clan and it fixed all of the socializing, chatting and grouping issues. Keep in mind this is still an asian game, a game based on clans.
Thing is that popular belief IS what defines whether groups are going on or not. In GE they are not.
That aside, the bonus only makes up for the losses, if you are killing at least twice as much in a 2 player group than you would alone. Other than that, XP-wise groups totally suck in GE. I tried it several times.
Either way, it does not fix the problem that players are generally not willing to group up and that communication in GE is almost non-existent. (Similar to post-Nightfall Guild Wars with the introduction of heroes, although at least there you got a zone chat in towns/outposts...).
I have been in groups most of the time, I encountered no lack of monsters to kill. If people in GE are not willing to group up..well, thats their decision. the game does not force you to solo, nor does it force you to group. If people aren't grouping, then its probably because they don't want to.
Sometimes I wonder how absurd your way of defending GE's weaknesses -- weaknesses even the die-hard fanbois would hardly ever dare to deny -- can possibly get.
"No lack of monsters", "I have been in groups", "My favorite color is blue"...
Who could possibly care? Fact is: The VAST majority of GE players does everything solo, groups are a total RARITY.
Heck, this isn't even a bad thing per se, but why deny it with some itty bitty arguments like "I have been in groups"?
It's not even important *why* people don't group (in fact, because group XP sucks compared to solo XP, which you -- who was so concerned about the XP advantage of non-afk-leveling -- should have valued most of all; but like I said, the why is of no concern) but WHAT is actually going on in GE.
And that would certainly not involve groups. We don't care why people don't do it, who's decision it is... actually not even if there is a lot of grouping in GE or not.
But that GE is a complete communication desert.
Correction, you are punished for grouping. The exp of monsters linked with the exp loss for fighting higher level monsters makes grouping worthless. Infact using 1 character has been the best exp I ever made in the game.
All things aside, if you love this game, that's great.
Just don't try to delude people by denying obvious weaknesses this game has. If you feel like defending this game, rather focus on it's strengths.
I'm not deluding anything. We have a different view on the subject, and we both have different tastes.
I love this game, its great. Hope to see it succedd. I mean I can do a whole lot worse critiques of any other game currently on the market. As far as its released version goes, you just have to remember it was a complete and optimized game. I can't even remember the last mmo to ever accomplish that, and its updates are making it better and better. The fact is, there is negativity about this game but there is always negative points. I really don't see that changing and am expecting WAR and AOC to have a whole lot more negative points.
(Even GE has some of those, it's not like it only consists of weaknesses. For example the "solobility" of GE makes it a much more worthwile gaming experience during shorter gaming sessions. No hours of "lfg" or "group lf healer" before you can finally start hunting... or not. But the lack of communication among players IS an (inevitable) side-effect of this strength, which seems to be even more brutal in GE than in comparable MMOs with high soloability.)
And honestly, the MAJORITY of players (talking of experienced MMORPG players, who mainly played "western" p2p games) simply considers GE to be utterly boring, content-free, non-interactive etc. pp.
A bold claim that is not supported by anything. No, the posts you see on mmorpg.com and your friends ingame are NOT a representive of experienced MMORPG players. I suggest we pretend you never made this rediculous claim.
Oh yes, the posts on MMORPG.com (the worldwide largest MMORPG communication platform), 30 friends who have been playing MMOs for 5-10 years, the posts on official GE boards etc. are NOT representative of experienced MMORPG players.
We should ask you, the secret League of GE Fanbois, lovers of Korean grind-clones, people who never played a MMORPG before GE and all the f2p-only cheapskates/freeloaders, who can't even imagine what a good MMO could be like.
That would be more representative, right?
Do me a favor, open your eyes.
That was a descently researched point and actually a well put assessment on the communication within the game.
Telling them "no, the fighting system does not feel automated" is not the way to go, because they *feel* it that way.
Out of my guild (around 30 people with whom I have played several MMOs for years) I couldn't talk ANYONE into playing GE for more than a week. (Half of them already wanted to delete it after seeing the totally non-existent character creation). Even though I was kinda kinda euphoric about this game in the first weeks.
But yeah, it quickly turned out to be one ofthe worst MMO experiences I ever had since... Deicide Online.
If half of them deleted the game just because of character customization, then they should never play anything else. This is NOT western Everquest clone No.7, This game is NOT focused on roleplaying. Its a game that tries to bring RTS elements and MMORPG elements together. If you're expecting standard MMORPG gameplay, then this game is not for you.
Yes, on that we totally agree. This is not Everquest clone No.7 but Korean grind clone No.288. It does not include any elements of RP, so we should just strike out 2 letters from MMORPG. And yes, this game certainly is not for me.
That's why I already deleted it, remember?
MMORTS is a pretty accurate assessment. However, it actually does have some parallelisms to Japan's expansion into RPGs. Its got the 3 character control, NPCs you can recruit along the way, and finely painted characters. I actually have to disagree, it isn't either an EQ clone or a Korean Grind Clone. Granted there is grinding in it, but it doesn't adapt the same gameplay as it. I would say its more like an adaption of Diablo to the mmo realm. Map Sizes, limited customization, large spawn rate monsters and all.
From that post I'm going to assume:
(Oh yes, another sentence that starts with "I'm going to assume"... I wonder if it's going to be as full of ridiculous assumptions, accusations and theories based on statements never made in the first place like the other ones?)
1: You dislike the fact that we don't have to click on each mob individualy. to do this they would have to slow down the game.
No, Mister Polemics, I do NOT dislike the fact that we don't have to click on each mob individualy. I wonder where you are deriving that silly assumption #28 from, but let me know where I either im- or explicitly stated anything like that.
I do, however, dislike the fact that Granado Espada has the most boring, non-involving, non-interactive and fully automated sit-and-watch-your-toons-fight-and-go-afk-for-2-hours-or-3-days-if-you-like combat system.
I'd like to think there is a slight difference between those two, but that might be just me.
2: You dlslike the fact that the game is so focused on AoE, you prefer to see the game make more use of single target skills.
You know what? There is one thing I have to grant you. You have the AMAZING and surprising ability to constantly surpass yourself. At least when it comes to making ridiculous assumptions, but hey.
Oh yeah, by the way, my answer is the same as in 1.
...but then why not just play another game, because there are plenty of games like that.
Since I already stated multiple times that I have deleted Granado Espada from my hard disk drive, I assumed that would imply that I am no longer playing this game.
Guess I was wrong, so here it is officially and just for you: I actually don't play Granado Espada anymore! (d'oh). I play other games.
Me and many other players like the game is now, its different. the game should not be westernized in an EQ clone. Sure it has its problems and it could use improvement in certain areas, but it seems you dislike what makes Granado Espada Granado Espada.
I am happy for you and your friends (unfortunately me and my friends think that GE is one of the worst MMORPGs ever made, but to each their own). I really am, but I already stated that in my last post.
Summary: The above might be hard to follow
PVP I really see PVP on par with what other PvE based titles do for PVP. Hopefully this expands in the future, infact considering its gameplay style it most likely will.
AFK Leveling The afk leveling might seem annoying to know that people are doing no work, but they are easy food to feed your baron status and get bonuses as a result. Also its a way to escape the repetativeness of combat.
Grinding The main point of the game was the mass amounts of monsters being taken down in waves. However, after playing through it, this gets repetative. As a result monsters are relatively easy to kill and give little exp. It actually uses an old mmo exp gain table which pretty much became obsolete in 2004. Character needs exponential exp to level and monsters give exp linearally. This game could use tweaking on its combat. Considering the RTS aspects of its gameplay, having strong monsters that give good exp would have been a better approach.
Similarities to other games This game closely mirrored to Diablo and Starcraft that are without a doubt popular in Korea. However, one problem is that its always compared to traditional MMOs rather then the games it was based after. People are looking for customization, trade skilling, and quests which are the staple of traditional mmos. So as a result GE really get a bad rap. Really they should compare its PVP, scenarios, and unit variety. IMC Games seemed to be originally taking this path, but do to bad advise attempted to appease tradition mmo games. Just a bad des
Conclusions It isn't the miracle game that everyone is going to love. Infact thats an impossibility. However, if you think about the shear amount of polish, the MCC system, and the non-traditional gameplay. You do get a unique gaming experience that in my opinion makes this game the best mmorpg, especially when comparing to other titles released version. Right now though it really needs time to mature as a title and get a few more updates under its belt to really shine. Just remember, released versions probably aren't going to get any better then this. So if you are going to come in saying AoC will trash this game. AoC had half the budget and didn't have the same experience or talent of the people at IMC games have.
After re-leveling several times there are a few aspects of the gameplay I don't enjoy. Particularly I don't like the grind. I kill over 300 phobitan with a 3 man party, and 2 are 3 levels less then the phobitan; and I only get 30% exp. At the low level of 20 it feels like a grind already. I soloed a character to 38 which was alot more interesting and intense. The exp rate solo was definetly not as grinding and acceptable. One thing I particularly hate is killing many many monsters which was a main premise of the combat system. It gets highly repetative quickly, and advancement is slow. Personally, I would enjoy a small amount of monsters that give rewarding exp when you kill them. Also an EXP scale that isn't the old Korean Grindo-matic version. Characters need exponential exp to gain a level and monsters give exp linearally. Still I enjoy the game despite it being a grind. Its very interesting and different. Hopefully, they get back on to updating what matters and stop listening to stupid suggestions from K2Networks. Thier costume system for character creation is a joke and offers worse customizability then the original. IMC games on the other hand updates a game like no other, so I am sure the game will expand even more into gameplay. They have already included several huge gameplay additions since its release, like faction conflicts and politics, and Territory Conquest.
Is this the beginning of you realizing how sucktastic the game is?
The stuff I mentioned are stuff I been saying from the beginning. I don't enjoy killing hordes of monsters, I would rather kill 1 big one and get well-rewarded. Its still the best mmorpg out right now with its unique MCC system, and incredibly optimized engine. Not to mention they are updating the game like madmen.
The stuff I mentioned are stuff I been saying from the beginning. I don't enjoy killing hordes of monsters, I would rather kill 1 big one and get well-rewarded. Its still the best mmorpg out right now with its unique MCC system, and incredibly optimized engine. Not to mention they are updating the game like madmen.
Well I don't see whats so special about it Guild Wars Nightfall is incredibly optimized with a unique MCC system as well.
But in Guild Wars Nightfall you are stuck in instances and progress across 1 story-line, then there is just PVP. It may not be good, but in GE you can do other things.
But in Guild Wars Nightfall you are stuck in instances and progress across 1 story-line, then there is just PVP. It may not be good, but in GE you can do other things.
Yes like go make a sandwich while your toons kill their merry way through dozens of mobs on autopilot. Sorry someone had to say it.
Not to mention that most Guild Wars instances are way larger (and offer more freedom) than the GE maps... Both have a linear sequence of maps through which you proceed, but in Guild Wars you have a (not that bad) story and way more variety and no painful, mindless grind. In the end you have several high end areas as well, not to mention GW:EN coming soon.
One other thing:
AoC had half the budget and didn't have the same experience or talent of the people at IMC games have.
Actually Anarchy Online evolved over the years, to become one of the most well-done, polished and (probably *the*) content-richest MMORPGs ever made. While GE appears to me as a boring, repetitive and uninspired grindfest. So I fail to see why IMC is supposed to be so much more talented than Funcom.
SOTNW didnt even last an entire day on my computer before uninstalling it. Its just Diablo, nothing more nothing less, except I have a bunch of other people getting in my way. This is why 99% of all asian MMOs suck, they are nothing more then Diablo clones.
Why are bashers (of any game) always trying so hard to force everyone to follow their way of thinking? The style of gameplay in this game is different from a typical MMO. Personally, I find it to be really refreshing. I like the combat a lot. I like feeling like I'm actually powerful. I like the occasional boss battles (which actually require quite a lot of work to kill).
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean you have to rant and rant and try to convince everyone else that the game sucks. Just because the game doesn't fit your small, puny idea of what a MMO should be doesn't mean you have to bash it. It's always good to have a variety of games out there. This game is definitely no clone. It breaks from the norm is so many ways.
I applaud the developers for taking a risk and going against standard MMO conventions. For what the game offers so far, it's very well done.
And it's extremely unfair to compare this brand new game to established games like GW, AO, etc. Guild Wars and the other games mentioned are some of the very best and they've had years and years to develop their core gameplay and content.
This game is brand new. Be smart and be realistic. If you play the game with reasonable expectations, you'll see that this game is extremely well done and has tons of future potential.
As for being grind or repetitive, umm...have you even played any other MMO? All MMO combat is basically autoattack with occasional button pushes. I find combat in this game is far, far better and more interesting.
Loads of potential... but very little in the way of anything close to delivery on anything substantial.
Not gonna bash the game any more than that. I read about the ability to control multi-characters simo and thought 'what a great feature'. And honestly, it is. I usually run more than one account with just about any game i've played anyway.
Again, great concept for the game... just not something I found appealing. Perhaps in another market it will do well. I just don't see this game being 'great' in the US/N.America.
In WoW, a standard combat interaction is as follows:
Pull or approach one mob
Press 1, 2, 2, 2, 3 (or whatever set of hotkeys applies to your character)
Loot
Repeat
In most cases, you can autoattack and never use any skills and you'll do perfectly fine. In groups, it's basically the same thing as well. Even if you fight an elite mob, you're still basically doing the same thing. Autoattack, spam skill, loot. You do this thousands of times, over and over again. This is typical for western MMO's and I fail to see how this combat system is in any way interesting or innovative or challenging.
In SotNW, it's already a lot more involved because you're facing off against a large group and controlling a group of characters. Positioning is important. Tanking is important. Burst damage is important. Every encounter requires more thought than any WoW encounter will ever provide. Add in a boss and the combat changes dramatically.
I'm not saying that the combat is so wonderful or anything like that. I'm just pointing out that combat in this game can be far better than combat in a typical MMO.
It's as fun as you make it. You can AFK if you want. You can only autoattack if you want. Even in WoW, you can run from mob and watch your character fight. You don't have to press a single button.
Graphically this game is better than average, but nothing overly special. But, any game in which the only player interaction required is occasionally moving your toon from point A to point B does not have gameplay worth sticking around for.
It lacks the strategic elements of an RTS. It lacks the depth and complex combat of an RPG. The game tried to merge the two genres, but ended up with the strengths of neither.
I find it interesting when people post using words such as “I have been told” which is the base their arguments. The game has a trial, play it for a while then maybe your post will have some weight, because I don’t care what your sister’s boyfriend’s older brother’s friend says about a game as that only proves that they don’t like it and besides they were talking about their mom’s new tattoo not the game.
Now I bought and downloaded SOTNW the day it was available and last night I finally finished off my quest list and collected all 24 boss vouchers which got that team to lvl 23, 22 and 22… WooHoo… Ok, the fact that I am a casual gamer on SFTNW does have something to do with my 8 *Avatars being lvl 9 to lvl 23 after a month of play but the main thing is this:
Just because you can do something does not mean that you must!
So what if some people can lvl Afk that does not mean that you have too. No one is forcing you to AFK lvl, If you simply play the game you will lvl naturally. The argument that a game is bad because it allows Afk playing is like saying a game is bad because people can cheat, IE.. Every game ever made is bad. Name one game just one (1) that someone never cheated in using a hack, glitch or bug exploit, there is not one but by your rational this means that every game ever made sucks…. All I can say is wow (and I do not mean WOW).
av·a·tar/?æv ??t?r, ?æv ??t?r/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[av-uh-tahr, av-uh-tahr] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1.
Hindu Mythology. the descent of a deity to the earth in an incarnate form or some manifest shape; the incarnation of a god.
2.
an embodiment or personification, as of a principle, attitude, or view of life.
3.
Computers. a graphical image that represents a person, as on the Internet.
Also, I can tell your not a serious gamer as no real gamer would ever use the word toon for their Avatar. Nor would they Afk level.
Just because someone can use an aimbot does not mean that CS, BF2 or any other FPS is not worth playing and just because someone can use a farmbot in a MMO does not mean that the MMO are not playing.
Like my grandpa used to say, “just because someone jumps off a bridge does not mean that you must also jump"
Also, I can tell your not a serious gamer as no real gamer would ever use the word toon for their Avatar. Nor would they Afk level.
Um...What is the logic here? Your definition of 'serious gamer' must be wildly different from the norm. Toon is a widely accepted word to describe your in-game characters. It's not like most people use 100% correct grammar/spelling all the time in forum posts. Toon is used because it's short and sweet...both to spell and say.
If you want to be so anal, you can argue that serious gamers wouldn't waste the time to say the 3 syllables of avatar, when they can quickly say toon.
In addition, for SotNW, avatar is almost the wrong word. Since we're controlling a family in this game, I feel more like a commander of a small army. My family isn't me, so it's not my avatar either.
Comments
All I have to say about it is this game must have been written by Chinese gold farmers because it has L2Walker (or some other botting program) coded right into the game itself. This so called game will be overrun with gold farmers if it isn't already as they have made it EXTREMELY easy for them. This is one of the reasons I left L2 after over 3 years and I'm not about to start playing a game where everyone is a bot.....farmer and player. Enough said.
Bren
while(horse==dead)
{
beat();
}
I've never played this game, but for a while I did follow it and read up on it. With all of these comments and opinions against gameplay, what were you expecting? Most of the asian mmos that are shown on this site are a grindfest. Gameloading says he follows foreign mmos. Why? so you can see if Asia really is only pumping out mediocre grind fests? I have played almost every mmo without a doubt, and for about a year I would say now, only a few western mmos contain some originality.
This may be a bit rant-ish, but I have no idea how you all can get so hyped up over an mmo that comes from the land of bad mmos. What good has anyone seen from there in a long time?
Cosplay....nuff said.
The asian market is like this:
There are a few MMO's that set a standard in Asia for a certain amount of years, these come from the big, wel funded corporations such as NCsoft, Gravity, etc. Now what happened over the past 10 years is that smaller companies with small budgets started to develop clones of those games. Think of games like Last Chaos. These low budget clones make up for the vast majority of Asian MMO's. Western companies who are looking to make a quick buck import these clones because they are cheap.
Its like an Asian gamer playing a game like Runescape or Tibia and then makes claims that every western MMORPG is complete crap.
The graphic hysteria certainly didn't help Vanguard, this should serve as an example that even though you have great graphics the game can still lack depth, substance and continuity.
The Old Timers Guild
Laid back, not so serious, no drama.
All about the fun!
www.oldtimersguild.com
An opinion should be the result of thought, not a substitute for it. - Jef Mallett
Honestly Roin, I don't really care what you believe or not. And obviously you don't even know 10% of what you pretend to.
You can't talk about afk-leveling and dungeons in the same sentence. But just scroll up, there you will see 3 examples of locations I've mentiond, where afk-leveling from 50-70 is easily possible at low to no risk.
So Mister Hot Air, I would suggest you just try it. If you can't do it, you certainly are doing something wrong. There is not much more to add for me, because that's just the way it is.
I'm afraid that was not your point. At least none that needed proof - nobody denied that actively playing is a bit faster than afk-leveling (then again it's not *that* much, if you consider that you can afk-level 24/7, which isn't possible by actively playing - unless you are a King of No-Life on amphetamines).
Also, you must consider that I am playing (IAH's) Granado Espada, and you K2's Sword of the New World. And that your version has doubled (or tripled?) XP and droprates compared to mine.
(That aside, I gladly accept a 50% slower progress, if as a side-effect I don't have to waste any time at all into this boring semi-automated combat.
Going to a club, watching TV, sleeping, working... I can do all of it, instead of watching my toons fight and assisting them by pressing a hotkey every 20 seconds.
Thing is just, without a proper endgame there is not much of a reason to play a game without playing it. That is what I realized after 2 months, and what made me delete this game.)
Either you are not really getting the point, or (as always) you are trying to push your opponent into a position he never really took in the first place, so you have an easier time defending yours.
When I talk about trying to *actively* play the game, which bores me so much that after a short while I choose to continue afk-leveling, telling me that being afk causes that automated feeling doesn't make much sense, now does it?
If I am not afk, I jump into a big crazy-spawn-room and throw in AoE spells, while running around (in a very limited and small radius, because first off the GE maps are small as phone boots, and because doing so while having claimed on of those "uber spawns" is NOT productive).
Now I hardly ever heal manually, and buffs only need ot be recast every ~15 minutes.
My point, however, remains: The combat is not involving, not interactive. I still hit space bar to start fighting, never seleting a single target manually (well, the game's nature wouldn't make that very viable). Non-AoE skills are USELESS in regular non-boss-combat.
With streams of monsters attacking and attacking, usually by the time you have executed the spell/skill against a single foe, that foe is dead already.
Really, apart from buffs (in theory heals) and AOE skills I don't use any skills at all, while the whole rest of the combat feels totally automated. WAY more automated than in every other MMORPG. Actually more like Starcraft combat (only in Starcraft you manage resources, build bases and don't have to camp a single room/dungeon area for hours and hours).
If you are too stubborn to admit it, so be it.
Yes, the weak and boring pvp endgame.
What faction vs faction vs faction pvp system? Dude, you make it sound like DAoC (which, as a counter-example, shows how great a pvp endgame can be... GE is NOTHING like that). Stop deluding people like that.
While wondering where you are taking the 3rd faction from (or does K2 allow you to participate in colony wars as a Neutralist?) these Colony Wars are 2 hours per week.
Even if those colony wars were nearly as great as you're thinking (I am not, but that's a matter of preference), 2 hours per week are NOT a proper pvp endgame for me. In any possible case.
Outside of those 2hrs/week all that remains as a PvP endgame are duels.
And the Baron system on PK servers. With hardly anyone going Baron at all, because GE offers no reward or even stat tracking system for your PK accomplishments. (And Baron Level is just a temporary figure, decreasing with every killed monster... and in GE you can hardly ever avoid doing that, eh?).
Not to mention that a Baron drops items, his victims do not. So once you are bold enough to go Baron, the whole map hunts you for items, with nothing to lose.
Sad to say that due to these restraints the largest SEA PK server (Cervantes) pretty much exactly feels like a carebear server.
And sad to say that I don't like this PK system at all. No reward system and not even good for some instant random-pk fun, because too much is at stake.
(On a PK server -- which always is an optional choice for players, so nobody is forced to play here -- either implement player looting or not. But only punishing the attacker, not anybody who could possibly kill him, even if he was outnumberd 20:1 with dropping equipment, is simply a farce. But anyway, I am not judging a PvP endgame by it's PK server ruleset, and GE's regular PvP endgame is no endgame. So I consider it being weak.)
Calling the GE pvp system to be based on player skill is kinda funny: I have never played a game with a larger impact of uber items, to compensate (or actually totally ignore) player skill.
Yes, I am talking about Elite Weapons/Armors, which basically emulate Unique Items like 20 levels higher. (Oh, and let's not forget AR/DR items, with the totally screwed up calculation of these stats).
Well, most MMORPGs value time played (equipment/level) over playerskill when it comes to PvP. GE is no exception, and actually seems even worse and more imbalanced than many (not all) other MMOs in that department.
Calling it a game with PvP based on playerskill is one of the most ridiculous things to say.
Oh, I am sure you don't have. With all those parties/groups going on, talkative players and zone/public chat channels GE is offering /irony off.
Apart from the fact that you are wrong (was in 2 large guilds), clans/guilds can NEVER be an argument for weak/no communication in an MMO. Clan/guild buddies always communicate with each other, that's not a point.
By your (flawed) definition, an MMO with communication issues it not possible.
But since you are dragging this in, communication among guild mates in GE is even less than in other MMOs, since most people "play" this game afk for the most time.
Thing is that popular belief IS what defines whether groups are going on or not. In GE they are not.
That aside, the bonus only makes up for the losses, if you are killing at least twice as much in a 2 player group than you would alone. Other than that, XP-wise groups totally suck in GE. I tried it several times.
Either way, it does not fix the problem that players are generally not willing to group up and that communication in GE is almost non-existent. (Similar to post-Nightfall Guild Wars with the introduction of heroes, although at least there you got a zone chat in towns/outposts...).
All things aside, if you love this game, that's great.
Just don't try to delude people by denying obvious weaknesses this game has. If you feel like defending this game, rather focus on it's strengths.
(Even GE has some of those, it's not like it only consists of weaknesses. For example the "solobility" of GE makes it a much more worthwile gaming experience during shorter gaming sessions. No hours of "lfg" or "group lf healer" before you can finally start hunting... or not. But the lack of communication among players IS an (inevitable) side-effect of this strength, which seems to be even more brutal in GE than in comparable MMOs with high soloability.)
And honestly, the MAJORITY of players (talking of experienced MMORPG players, who mainly played "western" p2p games) simply considers GE to be utterly boring, content-free, non-interactive etc. pp.
Telling them "no, the fighting system does not feel automated" is not the way to go, because they *feel* it that way.
Out of my guild (around 30 people with whom I have played several MMOs for years) I couldn't talk ANYONE into playing GE for more than a week. (Half of them already wanted to delete it after seeing the totally non-existent character creation). Even though I was kinda kinda euphoric about this game in the first weeks.
But yeah, it quickly turned out to be one ofthe worst MMO experiences I ever had since... Deicide Online.
afk levelling lol... its great what i t is, caters for its own masses. If you play it then go on, if you dont then stop bashing
i~ku~ra
And if you don't have anything to say, stop posting
Granado Espada (as I played it) is a sorry excuse for lazy development. They made awesome graphics, awesome music and even some awesome skills, and then they ran out of inspiration game content wise, realised there mistake and said ''ok go afk level'' (ok no they didnt literally say that, but honestly it sums the game up perfectly).
WHY do almost ALL Korean MMORPG's have to resolve to grinding? Is it so DAMN HARD to just make content that will make you level up, other than kill monsters (and im severely excluding ''get this and this drop from this or this monster'', or ''kill x amount of y monsters''. It's retarded, honestly.
I AFK level'd to 35, in dungeons, open ground, wherever, then realised this game was complete crap despite its potential. The lack of content killed it.
EDIT: I was in a clan from the moment my mate could make one, with a group of friends I always play games with. There was no lack of communication in our clan since we all know each other really well, and we tried to group up when ever possible. Then we realised the xp bonus doesnt account for the kills made, and the game itself is just totally void of content.
EDIT #2: If you consider this bashing, I say you didnt read the OP's post proper. It's called being dissapointed. The game obviously shows a lot of potential, yet its ruined by grinding, yet again. I could name atleast 3 more korean MMORPG's that I tried that share the same problem.
Honestly Roin, I don't really care what you believe or not. And obviously you don't even know 10% of what you pretend to.
You can't talk about afk-leveling and dungeons in the same sentence. But just scroll up, there you will see 3 examples of locations I've mentiond, where afk-leveling from 50-70 is easily possible at low to no risk.
So Mister Hot Air, I would suggest you just try it. If you can't do it, you certainly are doing something wrong. There is not much more to add for me, because that's just the way it is.
I'm afraid that was not your point. At least none that needed proof - nobody denied that actively playing is a bit faster than afk-leveling (then again it's not *that* much, if you consider that you can afk-level 24/7, which isn't possible by actively playing - unless you are a King of No-Life on amphetamines).
Its not just a bit faster. its a whole lot of faster. the arguement still stands, if you want to level up at a decent pace, AFK leveling is not an option.
Also, you must consider that I am playing (IAH's) Granado Espada, and you K2's Sword of the New World. And that your version has doubled (or tripled?) XP and droprates compared to mine.
I also played IAH's Granado Espada, and unless IAH changed the XP rate significantly since closed beta,t he difference between SotNW and GE is not that big. I leveled at roughtly the same pace.
(That aside, I gladly accept a 50% slower progress, if as a side-effect I don't have to waste any time at all into this boring semi-automated combat.
Going to a club, watching TV, sleeping, working... I can do all of it, instead of watching my toons fight and assisting them by pressing a hotkey every 20 seconds.
Thing is just, without a proper endgame there is not much of a reason to play a game without playing it. That is what I realized after 2 months, and what made me delete this game.)
Pressing a hotkey every 20 seconds? What team were you using? I'm using a Wizard - Musketeer - Scout setup and I'm constantly using skills. Even the Fighter - Elementalist - Scout setup I used required me to use skills constantly.
Either you are not really getting the point, or (as always) you are trying to push your opponent into a position he never really took in the first place, so you have an easier time defending yours.
When I talk about trying to *actively* play the game, which bores me so much that after a short while I choose to continue afk-leveling, telling me that being afk causes that automated feeling doesn't make much sense, now does it?
If I am not afk, I jump into a big crazy-spawn-room and throw in AoE spells, while running around (in a very limited and small radius, because first off the GE maps are small as phone boots, and because doing so while having claimed on of those "uber spawns" is NOT productive).
Now I hardly ever heal manually, and buffs only need ot be recast every ~15 minutes.
My point, however, remains: The combat is not involving, not interactive. I still hit space bar to start fighting, never seleting a single target manually (well, the game's nature wouldn't make that very viable). Non-AoE skills are USELESS in regular non-boss-combat.
As you already pointed out, clicking a mob every time becomes a chore because of the pace of the game. its similar to an RTS, where you won't click every enemy either because there are so many of them and they die so quickly. Because GE throws so many enemies at you,similar to an RTS this control scheme makes sense and I find your arguement a bit odd. I actually find the combat a lot more involving. If I stay in a place to long, I'll get overthrown. I have to keep using skills to kill mobs over and over again. I find the combat in a game say, World of Warcraft or Everquest, a lot less involving because that combat is more automated in my opinion.
With streams of monsters attacking and attacking, usually by the time you have executed the spell/skill against a single foe, that foe is dead already.
I agree with that, skills that are based on single opponets are pointless and are only useful for bosses and raids. But the vast majority of characters have access to Area of Effect skills, so I don't really see the problem in that.
Really, apart from buffs (in theory heals) and AOE skills I don't use any skills at all, while the whole rest of the combat feels totally automated. WAY more automated than in every other MMORPG. Actually more like Starcraft combat (only in Starcraft you manage resources, build bases and don't have to camp a single room/dungeon area for hours and hours).
Actually GE was inspired by Starcraft, Diablo and Ragnarok Online. its mentioned in one of the developers interviews, so comparing the combat to starcraft combat makes sense.
If you are too stubborn to admit it, so be it.
Yes, the weak and boring pvp endgame.
What faction vs faction vs faction pvp system? Dude, you make it sound like DAoC (which, as a counter-example, shows how great a pvp endgame can be... GE is NOTHING like that). Stop deluding people like that.
I'm deluding people?
Fact: Faction vs Faction system is a combat system between multiple factions.
Fact: GE has a faction vs Faction system that includes combat.
There is nothing deluding about that. I make it sound like Dark Age of Camelot? I never even MENTIONED Dark age of Camelot. In fact, I didn't compare the Faction vs Faction system to any other game whatsoever.
While wondering where you are taking the 3rd faction from (or does K2 allow you to participate in colony wars as a Neutralist?) these Colony Wars are 2 hours per week.
Even if those colony wars were nearly as great as you're thinking (I am not, but that's a matter of preference), 2 hours per week are NOT a proper pvp endgame for me. In any possible case.
Outside of those 2hrs/week all that remains as a PvP endgame are duels.
And the Baron system on PK servers. With hardly anyone going Baron at all, because GE offers no reward or even stat tracking system for your PK accomplishments. (And Baron Level is just a temporary figure, decreasing with every killed monster... and in GE you can hardly ever avoid doing that, eh?).
A weekly based PVP event is very common in Asian MMO's, Its been done before in some of the most popular MMO's such as Ragnarok Online and Lineage 2, and I think few people would argue Lineage 2 has a poor pvp system. What you're describing is a pvp event, the rest of the PVP takes place in the overworld. on the US/EU servers, There are plenty of Baron PKing and Clan wars going on the SotNW servers, and I'm not even on the most populated server.
Not to mention that a Baron drops items, his victims do not. So once you are bold enough to go Baron, the whole map hunts you for items, with nothing to lose.
Sad to say that due to these restraints the largest SEA PK server (Cervantes) pretty much exactly feels like a carebear server.
And sad to say that I don't like this PK system at all. No reward system and not even good for some instant random-pk fun, because too much is at stake.
(On a PK server -- which always is an optional choice for players, so nobody is forced to play here -- either implement player looting or not. But only punishing the attacker, not anybody who could possibly kill him, even if he was outnumberd 20:1 with dropping equipment, is simply a farce. But anyway, I am not judging a PvP endgame by it's PK server ruleset, and GE's regular PvP endgame is no endgame. So I consider it being weak.)
Calling the GE pvp system to be based on player skill is kinda funny: I have never played a game with a larger impact of uber items, to compensate (or actually totally ignore) player skill.
Yes, I am talking about Elite Weapons/Armors, which basically emulate Unique Items like 20 levels higher. (Oh, and let's not forget AR/DR items, with the totally screwed up calculation of these stats).
Well, most MMORPGs value time played (equipment/level) over playerskill when it comes to PvP. GE is no exception, and actually seems even worse and more imbalanced than many (not all) other MMOs in that department.
Calling it a game with PvP based on playerskill is one of the most ridiculous things to say.
I have done a LOT of PVP in Granado Espada, I had just about the worst gear you could imagine and I did VERY well in PVP, despite my equipment. In GE, its important to use which skill in a certain situation against a certain opponent. Saying its not based on skill is rediculous, and I'm going to assume it is a lack of skill on your part.
Oh, I am sure you don't have. With all those parties/groups going on, talkative players and zone/public chat channels GE is offering /irony off.
I have been leveling in a group most of the time, so I had no communication problems whatsoever.
Apart from the fact that you are wrong (was in 2 large guilds), clans/guilds can NEVER be an argument for weak/no communication in an MMO. Clan/guild buddies always communicate with each other, that's not a point.
By your (flawed) definition, an MMO with communication issues it not possible.
But since you are dragging this in, communication among guild mates in GE is even less than in other MMOs, since most people "play" this game afk for the most time.
A developer can't force a player to talk to one another, and enforcing grouping play is not a good way to go to improve communication, even though there is grouping content in GE.
Thing is that popular belief IS what defines whether groups are going on or not. In GE they are not.
That aside, the bonus only makes up for the losses, if you are killing at least twice as much in a 2 player group than you would alone. Other than that, XP-wise groups totally suck in GE. I tried it several times.
Either way, it does not fix the problem that players are generally not willing to group up and that communication in GE is almost non-existent. (Similar to post-Nightfall Guild Wars with the introduction of heroes, although at least there you got a zone chat in towns/outposts...).
I have been in groups most of the time, I encountered no lack of monsters to kill. If people in GE are not willing to group up..well, thats their decision. the game does not force you to solo, nor does it force you to group. If people aren't grouping, then its probably because they don't want to.
All things aside, if you love this game, that's great.
Just don't try to delude people by denying obvious weaknesses this game has. If you feel like defending this game, rather focus on it's strengths.
I'm not deluding anything. We have a different view on the subject, and we both have different tastes.
(Even GE has some of those, it's not like it only consists of weaknesses. For example the "solobility" of GE makes it a much more worthwile gaming experience during shorter gaming sessions. No hours of "lfg" or "group lf healer" before you can finally start hunting... or not. But the lack of communication among players IS an (inevitable) side-effect of this strength, which seems to be even more brutal in GE than in comparable MMOs with high soloability.)
And honestly, the MAJORITY of players (talking of experienced MMORPG players, who mainly played "western" p2p games) simply considers GE to be utterly boring, content-free, non-interactive etc. pp.
A bold claim that is not supported by anything. No, the posts you see on mmorpg.com and your friends ingame are NOT a representive of experienced MMORPG players. I suggest we pretend you never made this rediculous claim.
Telling them "no, the fighting system does not feel automated" is not the way to go, because they *feel* it that way.
Out of my guild (around 30 people with whom I have played several MMOs for years) I couldn't talk ANYONE into playing GE for more than a week. (Half of them already wanted to delete it after seeing the totally non-existent character creation). Even though I was kinda kinda euphoric about this game in the first weeks.
But yeah, it quickly turned out to be one ofthe worst MMO experiences I ever had since... Deicide Online.
If half of them deleted the game just because of character customization, then they should never play anything else. This is NOT western Everquest clone No.7, This game is NOT focused on roleplaying. Its a game that tries to bring RTS elements and MMORPG elements together. If you're expecting standard MMORPG gameplay, then this game is not for you.
From that post I'm going to assume:
1: You dislike the fact that we don't have to click on each mob individualy. to do this they would have to slow down the game.
2: You dlslike the fact that the game is so focused on AoE, you prefer to see the game make more use of single target skills.
...but then why not just play another game, because there are plenty of games like that.
Me and many other players like the game is now, its different. the game should not be westernized in an EQ clone. Sure it has its problems and it could use improvement in certain areas, but it seems you dislike what makes Granado Espada Granado Espada.
Oh, this is fun. Let's see, if we can make this even more cluttered with the formatting of your choice (legend: White = Original text from last post, Red = GameLoading, Yellow = Me).
I'm afraid that was not your point. At least none that needed proof - nobody denied that actively playing is a bit faster than afk-leveling (then again it's not *that* much, if you consider that you can afk-level 24/7, which isn't possible by actively playing - unless you are a King of No-Life on amphetamines).
Its not just a bit faster. its a whole lot of faster. the arguement still stands, if you want to level up at a decent pace, AFK leveling is not an option.
So the argument still stands, because I used "a bit"? No it does not. Nobody argues that AFK-leveling is faster. We already know. And since the majority uses this feature anyway, obviously nobody cares. So feel free to stop using this as your matchpoint.
You know if they followed my suggestion of using hard monsters that give great exp, then AFK leveling wouldn't be a dilemma. However, one design flaw I found that create this grind is how exp is distributed. You can have an action filled moment of taking down a boss, but you only get 5% more exp the a normal mob. If the boss gave maybe 10% to level then it would be a whole different story. This is the real reason people AFK level, there is no challenge requiring concentration which is the games weak point. It also hinders challenging the player since the make the most exp killing monsters of the same level. If your level 30 and kill level 44 monsters, your making only 20% of what you would if you killed those monsters at 44.
Also, you must consider that I am playing (IAH's) Granado Espada, and you K2's Sword of the New World. And that your version has doubled (or tripled?) XP and droprates compared to mine.
I also played IAH's Granado Espada, and unless IAH changed the XP rate significantly since closed beta,t he difference between SotNW and GE is not that big. I leveled at roughtly the same pace.
Now, this is strange. I also played both, GE and SotNW Beta, and XP and droprates were SIGNIFICANTLY higher in K2's version. At least 50% higher, probably even doubled. K2 must have changed their rates to the original GE after release, eh?
Actually K2Networks pulled a dipshit move on release. They severely nerfed exp gain rates on release. It infact has the worst exp rates of any GE version now.
(That aside, I gladly accept a 50% slower progress, if as a side-effect I don't have to waste any time at all into this boring semi-automated combat.
Going to a club, watching TV, sleeping, working... I can do all of it, instead of watching my toons fight and assisting them by pressing a hotkey every 20 seconds.
Thing is just, without a proper endgame there is not much of a reason to play a game without playing it. That is what I realized after 2 months, and what made me delete this game.)
Pressing a hotkey every 20 seconds? What team were you using? I'm using a Wizard - Musketeer - Scout setup and I'm constantly using skills. Even the Fighter - Elementalist - Scout setup I used required me to use skills constantly.
What a coincidence. I also used to run a Wizard - Musketeer - Scout setup. Constantly using skills? Even when I was alone at the most overwhelming power-spots, I hardly ever used more than Apocalypse and Quake. More than enough to kill dozens of monster streams. The Musk, well it depends on the weapon stance I was currently leveling. Aimed Shot, Freestyle Shot and Rifle had (almost) unusable AOEs, and as a result no Skills at all I ever used in PvE.
Only Musk skill worthwile using in PvE probably is Bloody Overdrive, but neither was I using 2 Pistols all the time (only until I hit stance level 25) nor was I content with firing away 20000 bullets per hour.
And my scout? 2-3 Buffs every 15 minutes (not much of a difference whether you use Meditation or not). Heals automatically.
So yeah, Apocalypse, Quake - rest is running around to ball up monsters, picking up loot and getting bored.
Ah, what was your point again? That I probably don't use skills every 20 but every 10 seconds? Oh got it, your round then.
Oh wait, my point also was about the trade-off: Sacrificing the most valuable good any person has, their time, for progress in GE.
Like I said, being able to do NOTHING (or let's say, nothing GE-related, but more important like mowing the lawn, helping your son at homework, pleasuring your gf, having a nap) while making progress in GE actually IS beneficial enough for me and (obviously) hundreds (or even thousands, if we count in all GE versions worldwide) other players, to sacrifice a faster progress through active gaming.
But I still don't even get your point. Are you still trying to prove that progress via afk-leveling is slower? Yea fine, nobody ever argued that.
Fact is, that hardly anybody cares at all. That's why the majority "plays" GE without playing it (jGE and kGE being the "worst", K2 probably a bit less extensive, since it is the only p2p version of GE).
Fact is, you *can* level up to 100 without ever doing so much as logging in an placing your toons at some spot. Probably sacrificing an hour or two every now and then to pick up some loot, so you can buy new equipment every 4 levels.
Sad to say, since you can buy millions of vis for a couple of pennies (well, probably not in the K2 version, which is admittedly less bot-infested than other GE versions) some people don't even have to worry about picking up loot.
I know what your getting at that killing the monsters feels tright and unrewarding. However, one great way I discovered to challenge yourself is to do it solo. You will be spamming your skills then like when you run into a Sigmund. Not to mention all the food you will eat. Also exp growth is descent.
The bigger difference is the players. I don't think the sgGE has Baron Buffs installed. So there is no reward for finding afk levelers and PKing them for buffs. If they add baron mode you know there will be a decrease in AFK levelers after the reach pkable status.
Either you are not really getting the point, or (as always) you are trying to push your opponent into a position he never really took in the first place, so you have an easier time defending yours.
When I talk about trying to *actively* play the game, which bores me so much that after a short while I choose to continue afk-leveling, telling me that being afk causes that automated feeling doesn't make much sense, now does it?
If I am not afk, I jump into a big crazy-spawn-room and throw in AoE spells, while running around (in a very limited and small radius, because first off the GE maps are small as phone boots, and because doing so while having claimed on of those "uber spawns" is NOT productive).
Now I hardly ever heal manually, and buffs only need ot be recast every ~15 minutes.
My point, however, remains: The combat is not involving, not interactive. I still hit space bar to start fighting, never seleting a single target manually (well, the game's nature wouldn't make that very viable). Non-AoE skills are USELESS in regular non-boss-combat.
As you already pointed out, clicking a mob every time becomes a chore because of the pace of the game. its similar to an RTS, where you won't click every enemy either because there are so many of them and they die so quickly. Because GE throws so many enemies at you,similar to an RTS this control scheme makes sense and I find your arguement a bit odd. I actually find the combat a lot more involving. If I stay in a place to long, I'll get overthrown. I have to keep using skills to kill mobs over and over again. I find the combat in a game say, World of Warcraft or Everquest, a lot less involving because that combat is more automated in my opinion.
My "odd argument" was about clarifying that your argument ("The combat feels automated because you chose to do so") is pretty much nonsense (literally no sense in it, see above/original for details). Then I just explained (not argued) how I play the game when playing "active" (i.e. non-afk).
Yes, it is an RTS control system. And given the nature of the game (control of 3 characters, LOADS of mobs) it's probably the only viable system to handle combat. I never denied that, I more or less explicitly admitted it. Seriously, given the MCC and spawnrates, I am glad I don't have to select every single mob. The micromanagement would make it the most annoying gaming experience ever.
On the other hand, this system is commonly perceived as less involving, automated and simply boring. By me, by so many people on this board, by all my friends/guildmates who have been playing MMORPGs for years and years, by so many people on the official GE boards...
Admittedly, the classical MMORPG fight system (DAoC, EQ1+2 etc.) is sort of automated as well. In another way, but yes. You usually pick a target, hit attack and wait. Spice things up with special attacks/spells (with Tabula Rasa and AoC supposedly going for a combat system with more of a "realtime" component).
Still, and since you eagerly disagree let's call it a personal view, GE is even less involving and more automated. In games like EQ2 I have to pick a monster, probably have to pull it away from it's buddy, all the time watching for adds and patrols. Depending on the class, positioning might be an issue during the fights as well. Group fights have their own dynamics, we all know the Tank-Healer-Damage scheme.
Anyway, the point is: At least I somehow feel like I *am* fighting, while in GE I feel like I *watch* fighting.
It's the inflation of monsters (who would ever care about patrolling mobs or accidently 1-2 additional foes?) COMBINED with the press-space-and-watch fighting system. The toons even *move* for you during combat (Wizard doing a couple of steps aside, to cast an AOE with a maximum of monsters hit, tank running around automatically, scout running to party members for heals... just a few of many minor components which result in this "automated feeling" so many people have when playing GE).
If you perceive GE's fighting to be *more* involving than that of other MMORPGs, so be it. You are however an obious minority. Actually, I would go as far as calling you an "exotic"...
One thing to remember about the combat system is that it can be very involving at times if you have the need to use it. It really takes challenging yourself like only using 1 character to truly understand. You are constantly running using skills hiding in corners and advancing at a pace. However, the game simply lacks challenge when you add 3 characters. Usually I just dash right into the center of a room and hit space bar, then move to the next one. Having less mobs but better quality and exp would definetly make this game better.
With streams of monsters attacking and attacking, usually by the time you have executed the spell/skill against a single foe, that foe is dead already.
I agree with that, skills that are based on single opponets are pointless and are only useful for bosses and raids. But the vast majority of characters have access to Area of Effect skills, so I don't really see the problem in that.
This is not a problem. It just limits the combat options (for active playing) even more. Every character has 0-2 viable AOE skills to use, narrowing down the number of usable skills in a x-x-scout setup to 2-3 skills. Amazing and involving gameplay, right?
Its good to note that Single Use skills are great to use in the instance quests and PVP as well. Since they do more then twice the damage as AOE spells and have some affects attached.
Really, apart from buffs (in theory heals) and AOE skills I don't use any skills at all, while the whole rest of the combat feels totally automated. WAY more automated than in every other MMORPG. Actually more like Starcraft combat (only in Starcraft you manage resources, build bases and don't have to camp a single room/dungeon area for hours and hours).
Actually GE was inspired by Starcraft, Diablo and Ragnarok Online. its mentioned in one of the developers interviews, so comparing the combat to starcraft combat makes sense.
I think you hardly need interview statements to see that GE was inspired by those games. What I wanted to say is that this combat system does not work for every game. It works for starcraft, it "works" but leads to boredom in GE.
I love steaks. I love chocolate sauce. But I don't like steak with chocolate sauce.
It'll be interesting with how they update the game. Its still a little in its infancy and needs to mature as a game. Like I mentioned before, the engine runs smooth and is highly optimized. That took alot of work. Now that its finished they can expand on gameplay and content. Given time it may be alot better. Its combat system can be quite a feat to master, its just that there is no challenge in it. Maybe one day they will give rewards and exp for PVPing which would definetly add to that challenge part.
Yes, the weak and boring pvp endgame.
What faction vs faction vs faction pvp system? Dude, you make it sound like DAoC (which, as a counter-example, shows how great a pvp endgame can be... GE is NOTHING like that). Stop deluding people like that.
I'm deluding people?
Fact: Faction vs Faction system is a combat system between multiple factions.
Fact: GE has a faction vs Faction system that includes combat.
There is nothing deluding about that. I make it sound like Dark Age of Camelot? I never even MENTIONED Dark age of Camelot. In fact, I didn't compare the Faction vs Faction system to any other game whatsoever.
I did not say you are comparing it to anything. I never said you mentioned DAoC. I did, as a plastic example for a real "Faction vs Faction" that involves more than some skirmishes 2 hours per week, where actually only the top guilds can really participate. In a nutshell, something that people usually assume when they hear "Faction vs Faction PvP".
Other than those colony wars, there is no PvP AT ALL between Royalists and Republicans. 2 hours per week. That's the Faction vs Faction system of GE.
I call it weak, because I have played titles like Dark Age of Camelot (or even Anarchy Online or Everquest 2 on a PvP server). Period.
The faction vs faction system in its current state is very un-refined. But you have to remember, the Faction v Faction wasn't GE's main feature, it was the MCC system. On the other hand DAoC it was. It takes time to really perfect a sub-feature. Just look at EQ2, it also needed time to flesh out its sub-features and be playable. Not to mention the heavy set grind at 20. The reason its only a few times a week is to bulk up players. They want battles to be epic in scale. You can't really do this if its a 24/7 occurance.
While wondering where you are taking the 3rd faction from (or does K2 allow you to participate in colony wars as a Neutralist?) these Colony Wars are 2 hours per week.
Even if those colony wars were nearly as great as you're thinking (I am not, but that's a matter of preference), 2 hours per week are NOT a proper pvp endgame for me. In any possible case.
Outside of those 2hrs/week all that remains as a PvP endgame are duels.
And the Baron system on PK servers. With hardly anyone going Baron at all, because GE offers no reward or even stat tracking system for your PK accomplishments. (And Baron Level is just a temporary figure, decreasing with every killed monster... and in GE you can hardly ever avoid doing that, eh?).
A weekly based PVP event is very common in Asian MMO's, Its been done before in some of the most popular MMO's such as Ragnarok Online and Lineage 2, and I think few people would argue Lineage 2 has a poor pvp system. What you're describing is a pvp event, the rest of the PVP takes place in the overworld. on the US/EU servers, There are plenty of Baron PKing and Clan wars going on the SotNW servers, and I'm not even on the most populated server.
Eating dogs is also very common in Asia, still that doesn't mean that I like the taste of fried dog-legs (no racism intended, just trying to illustrate your "logic"). I never played Lineage 2 (well, the Beta, but that's about it) so I don't call it's PvP system anything. If it's exactly like GE's system, I would also call it weak. Definitely.
But from what I've heard, LA2 has a PK system on every server, not just on special ruleset servers. So it must be considered as core-component of the game itself and it's PvP endgame, not just an option. So we already are comparing apples to peaches.
Also, the PK system works way better in LA2 than in GE, since its gameworld is not cluttered into hundreds of tiny little ego-shooter-sized maps (hundreds if you count 3 instances per map) but more like a real persistent MMORPG world.
The "PvP event" I was apparently describing... I don't care what it's called, seriously. I really don't care about what other Asian MMORPGs (which I would probably call junk anyway) do. Also, unless it's essential part of the game or at least REWARDING, I don't care about random PKing either when I rate a game's PvP ENDGAME.
In GE PKing is just a non-rewarding frag-fest (might as well play Quake for that kind of PvP) where the attacker has everything to lose and nothing to gain. No PvP progression, no PvP rewards, no chance of looting victims... PK just for the fun of it. Oh, and if you drop your weapon or armor, don't worry, just remember it's just for fun.
Anyway, when making statements like "weak PvP ENDGAME" I don't care about some friggin' "PvP event". That might be a nice addition for a game that already has an endgame, but it is not a sufficient PvP endgame of it's own.
2 hours as week... no permanent fight between Royalists and Republicans, not even in special PvP-enabled zones. No PvP reward system or even progression whatsoever.
I still call it weak. Your argument that is called "PvP event" helps as much as pointing out that other Asian MMOs do it as well.
These were you sole arguments, right? Tell me if I have overlooked something.
This post is tiring. Right now you guys are just repeating yourselves over and over again. Give the game time to add on more features. Its not like any mmo was released with everything you ever dreamed of. It was built up in updates like PVP for most games was purely made from updates. Also there are only a handful of mmos that even reward you for PVP, and most of them come from the East. The problem with rewarding PVP is that unless its regulated there is a potential for abuse.
Not to mention that a Baron drops items, his victims do not. So once you are bold enough to go Baron, the whole map hunts you for items, with nothing to lose.
Sad to say that due to these restraints the largest SEA PK server (Cervantes) pretty much exactly feels like a carebear server.
And sad to say that I don't like this PK system at all. No reward system and not even good for some instant random-pk fun, because too much is at stake.
(On a PK server -- which always is an optional choice for players, so nobody is forced to play here -- either implement player looting or not. But only punishing the attacker, not anybody who could possibly kill him, even if he was outnumberd 20:1 with dropping equipment, is simply a farce. But anyway, I am not judging a PvP endgame by it's PK server ruleset, and GE's regular PvP endgame is no endgame. So I consider it being weak.)
Calling the GE pvp system to be based on player skill is kinda funny: I have never played a game with a larger impact of uber items, to compensate (or actually totally ignore) player skill.
Yes, I am talking about Elite Weapons/Armors, which basically emulate Unique Items like 20 levels higher. (Oh, and let's not forget AR/DR items, with the totally screwed up calculation of these stats).
Well, most MMORPGs value time played (equipment/level) over playerskill when it comes to PvP. GE is no exception, and actually seems even worse and more imbalanced than many (not all) other MMOs in that department.
Calling it a game with PvP based on playerskill is one of the most ridiculous things to say.
I have done a LOT of PVP in Granado Espada, I had just about the worst gear you could imagine and I did VERY well in PVP, despite my equipment. In GE, its important to use which skill in a certain situation against a certain opponent. Saying its not based on skill is rediculous, and I'm going to assume it is a lack of skill on your part.
Oh, we are going for polemics now? Fine with me:
I'm going to assume that you are only fighting newbies who are at least 30 levels lower than you.
I'm going to assume that you have never read the endless rants of high level Duel players with lots of experience.
I'm going to assume that you have never ever fought somebody of your level, but with Elite weapons and armors.
I'm going to assume that you really live under the delusion that GE's PvP requires a PhD in rocket science to succeed.
So, when we're done exchanging childish polemics and accusations, why don't you explicitly EXPLAIN to me, why GE (above all other MMORPGs ever created) requires playerskill?
Because you actually need a mental pulse to PVP. Not like some of these mmos like WoW where all that matters is level. If you are skilled enough you can kill someone 20 levels higher, or outnumbered several to one. Also you control a team rather then a single individual which significantly alters the gameplay. Ontop of this there are many stances with strengths and weaknesses that you will not be able to tell what the other player is going to do just by looking at them. Its not like you just stand there and hit hotkeys until someone falls. You can go invisible, lay out a bunch or traps then fortify yourself behind some turrets, then backstab thier scout while they are distracted with the guy hiding behind the turrets.
Oh, I am sure you don't have. With all those parties/groups going on, talkative players and zone/public chat channels GE is offering /irony off.
I have been leveling in a group most of the time, so I had no communication problems whatsoever.
I have been eating dinner with Elvis and the Pope tonight. Sending you their regards.
Seriously, hardly anyone -- even the most die-hard GE-fanbois -- ever denied that GE is one of the most communication-unfriendly MMOs produced in the last 28 years. Yet you do. In a "but I have..." way.
No argument there, everyone I talked to has noted the communication problem. Even if your actively playing you sometimes won't notice messages for 5 minutes. I think it has alot to do with the UI layout. Even the guy I get alot of info from, mugengia, says that the communication is bad.
Apart from the fact that you are wrong (was in 2 large guilds), clans/guilds can NEVER be an argument for weak/no communication in an MMO. Clan/guild buddies always communicate with each other, that's not a point.
By your (flawed) definition, an MMO with communication issues it not possible.
But since you are dragging this in, communication among guild mates in GE is even less than in other MMOs, since most people "play" this game afk for the most time.
A developer can't force a player to talk to one another, and enforcing grouping play is not a good way to go to improve communication, even though there is grouping content in GE.
He can't force players to talk to each other, but he can ENCOURAGE them to do so by delivering the VERY BASIC tools: Common public chat channels, chat channels where all players in a certain zone can talk to each other etc.
GE doesn't do that.
Combined with a game where about 100% of the "normal" (non-raid) can be soloed, this makes up for a deadly non-communication combination.
I don't say that enforcing grouping is a good way to improve communication - at least not "good" in a win-win-situation-like way. However, the lack of any grouping necessity (which brings along certain advantages) also brings along a lack of communication. A simple tradeoff that can be ovserved in any MMO, one way or the other.
The question is: If you develop an MMO with high (almost 100%) soloability, what can you do to encourage people to still communicate with each other, so the game doesn't just feel like a single player game?
GE's answer to this question is: Nothing.
But was that even the point? Or was it rather your "EVERY MMO that supports guilds can't have weak communication among players" theory?
Honestly, joining a guild (or Clan like you call it, although literally speaking in GE your single family is a "clan") resolves the communication problems in about every possible game. Even Tetris Online. 10 friends who are connected via Vent and headsets, playing Oblivion each for their own and talking about it, doesn't make Oblivion a great Multiplayer game with great communication among players.
You actually are forced to group when you do missions like Spotlight. You just can't do those alone. The tools they have for partying are actually pretty descent, like scouts will heal people within a party, and its loot auto-splits. So you can make an AFK party with 1 person active in shifts picking up loot. However, you are right. The chat tools just aren't there. Its very surprising because its a Hakkyu Kim game. He practically invented the community driven mmorpg.
Thing is that popular belief IS what defines whether groups are going on or not. In GE they are not.
That aside, the bonus only makes up for the losses, if you are killing at least twice as much in a 2 player group than you would alone. Other than that, XP-wise groups totally suck in GE. I tried it several times.
Either way, it does not fix the problem that players are generally not willing to group up and that communication in GE is almost non-existent. (Similar to post-Nightfall Guild Wars with the introduction of heroes, although at least there you got a zone chat in towns/outposts...).
I have been in groups most of the time, I encountered no lack of monsters to kill. If people in GE are not willing to group up..well, thats their decision. the game does not force you to solo, nor does it force you to group. If people aren't grouping, then its probably because they don't want to.
Sometimes I wonder how absurd your way of defending GE's weaknesses -- weaknesses even the die-hard fanbois would hardly ever dare to deny -- can possibly get.
"No lack of monsters", "I have been in groups", "My favorite color is blue"...
Who could possibly care? Fact is: The VAST majority of GE players does everything solo, groups are a total RARITY.
Heck, this isn't even a bad thing per se, but why deny it with some itty bitty arguments like "I have been in groups"?
It's not even important *why* people don't group (in fact, because group XP sucks compared to solo XP, which you -- who was so concerned about the XP advantage of non-afk-leveling -- should have valued most of all; but like I said, the why is of no concern) but WHAT is actually going on in GE.
And that would certainly not involve groups. We don't care why people don't do it, who's decision it is... actually not even if there is a lot of grouping in GE or not.
But that GE is a complete communication desert.
Correction, you are punished for grouping. The exp of monsters linked with the exp loss for fighting higher level monsters makes grouping worthless. Infact using 1 character has been the best exp I ever made in the game.
All things aside, if you love this game, that's great.
Just don't try to delude people by denying obvious weaknesses this game has. If you feel like defending this game, rather focus on it's strengths.
I'm not deluding anything. We have a different view on the subject, and we both have different tastes.
I love this game, its great. Hope to see it succedd. I mean I can do a whole lot worse critiques of any other game currently on the market. As far as its released version goes, you just have to remember it was a complete and optimized game. I can't even remember the last mmo to ever accomplish that, and its updates are making it better and better. The fact is, there is negativity about this game but there is always negative points. I really don't see that changing and am expecting WAR and AOC to have a whole lot more negative points.
(Even GE has some of those, it's not like it only consists of weaknesses. For example the "solobility" of GE makes it a much more worthwile gaming experience during shorter gaming sessions. No hours of "lfg" or "group lf healer" before you can finally start hunting... or not. But the lack of communication among players IS an (inevitable) side-effect of this strength, which seems to be even more brutal in GE than in comparable MMOs with high soloability.)
And honestly, the MAJORITY of players (talking of experienced MMORPG players, who mainly played "western" p2p games) simply considers GE to be utterly boring, content-free, non-interactive etc. pp.
A bold claim that is not supported by anything. No, the posts you see on mmorpg.com and your friends ingame are NOT a representive of experienced MMORPG players. I suggest we pretend you never made this rediculous claim.
Oh yes, the posts on MMORPG.com (the worldwide largest MMORPG communication platform), 30 friends who have been playing MMOs for 5-10 years, the posts on official GE boards etc. are NOT representative of experienced MMORPG players.
We should ask you, the secret League of GE Fanbois, lovers of Korean grind-clones, people who never played a MMORPG before GE and all the f2p-only cheapskates/freeloaders, who can't even imagine what a good MMO could be like.
That would be more representative, right?
Do me a favor, open your eyes.
That was a descently researched point and actually a well put assessment on the communication within the game.
Telling them "no, the fighting system does not feel automated" is not the way to go, because they *feel* it that way.
Out of my guild (around 30 people with whom I have played several MMOs for years) I couldn't talk ANYONE into playing GE for more than a week. (Half of them already wanted to delete it after seeing the totally non-existent character creation). Even though I was kinda kinda euphoric about this game in the first weeks.
But yeah, it quickly turned out to be one ofthe worst MMO experiences I ever had since... Deicide Online.
If half of them deleted the game just because of character customization, then they should never play anything else. This is NOT western Everquest clone No.7, This game is NOT focused on roleplaying. Its a game that tries to bring RTS elements and MMORPG elements together. If you're expecting standard MMORPG gameplay, then this game is not for you.
Yes, on that we totally agree. This is not Everquest clone No.7 but Korean grind clone No.288. It does not include any elements of RP, so we should just strike out 2 letters from MMORPG. And yes, this game certainly is not for me.
That's why I already deleted it, remember?
MMORTS is a pretty accurate assessment. However, it actually does have some parallelisms to Japan's expansion into RPGs. Its got the 3 character control, NPCs you can recruit along the way, and finely painted characters. I actually have to disagree, it isn't either an EQ clone or a Korean Grind Clone. Granted there is grinding in it, but it doesn't adapt the same gameplay as it. I would say its more like an adaption of Diablo to the mmo realm. Map Sizes, limited customization, large spawn rate monsters and all.
From that post I'm going to assume:
(Oh yes, another sentence that starts with "I'm going to assume"... I wonder if it's going to be as full of ridiculous assumptions, accusations and theories based on statements never made in the first place like the other ones?)
1: You dislike the fact that we don't have to click on each mob individualy. to do this they would have to slow down the game.
No, Mister Polemics, I do NOT dislike the fact that we don't have to click on each mob individualy. I wonder where you are deriving that silly assumption #28 from, but let me know where I either im- or explicitly stated anything like that.
I do, however, dislike the fact that Granado Espada has the most boring, non-involving, non-interactive and fully automated sit-and-watch-your-toons-fight-and-go-afk-for-2-hours-or-3-days-if-you-like combat system.
I'd like to think there is a slight difference between those two, but that might be just me.
2: You dlslike the fact that the game is so focused on AoE, you prefer to see the game make more use of single target skills.
You know what? There is one thing I have to grant you. You have the AMAZING and surprising ability to constantly surpass yourself. At least when it comes to making ridiculous assumptions, but hey.
Oh yeah, by the way, my answer is the same as in 1.
...but then why not just play another game, because there are plenty of games like that.
Since I already stated multiple times that I have deleted Granado Espada from my hard disk drive, I assumed that would imply that I am no longer playing this game.
Guess I was wrong, so here it is officially and just for you: I actually don't play Granado Espada anymore! (d'oh). I play other games.
Me and many other players like the game is now, its different. the game should not be westernized in an EQ clone. Sure it has its problems and it could use improvement in certain areas, but it seems you dislike what makes Granado Espada Granado Espada.
I am happy for you and your friends (unfortunately me and my friends think that GE is one of the worst MMORPGs ever made, but to each their own). I really am, but I already stated that in my last post.
Summary: The above might be hard to follow
PVP I really see PVP on par with what other PvE based titles do for PVP. Hopefully this expands in the future, infact considering its gameplay style it most likely will.
AFK Leveling The afk leveling might seem annoying to know that people are doing no work, but they are easy food to feed your baron status and get bonuses as a result. Also its a way to escape the repetativeness of combat.
Grinding The main point of the game was the mass amounts of monsters being taken down in waves. However, after playing through it, this gets repetative. As a result monsters are relatively easy to kill and give little exp. It actually uses an old mmo exp gain table which pretty much became obsolete in 2004. Character needs exponential exp to level and monsters give exp linearally. This game could use tweaking on its combat. Considering the RTS aspects of its gameplay, having strong monsters that give good exp would have been a better approach.
Similarities to other games This game closely mirrored to Diablo and Starcraft that are without a doubt popular in Korea. However, one problem is that its always compared to traditional MMOs rather then the games it was based after. People are looking for customization, trade skilling, and quests which are the staple of traditional mmos. So as a result GE really get a bad rap. Really they should compare its PVP, scenarios, and unit variety. IMC Games seemed to be originally taking this path, but do to bad advise attempted to appease tradition mmo games. Just a bad des
Conclusions It isn't the miracle game that everyone is going to love. Infact thats an impossibility. However, if you think about the shear amount of polish, the MCC system, and the non-traditional gameplay. You do get a unique gaming experience that in my opinion makes this game the best mmorpg, especially when comparing to other titles released version. Right now though it really needs time to mature as a title and get a few more updates under its belt to really shine. Just remember, released versions probably aren't going to get any better then this. So if you are going to come in saying AoC will trash this game. AoC had half the budget and didn't have the same experience or talent of the people at IMC games have.
Is this the beginning of you realizing how sucktastic the game is?
----ITS A TRAP!!!----
The stuff I mentioned are stuff I been saying from the beginning. I don't enjoy killing hordes of monsters, I would rather kill 1 big one and get well-rewarded. Its still the best mmorpg out right now with its unique MCC system, and incredibly optimized engine. Not to mention they are updating the game like madmen.
Well I don't see whats so special about it
Guild Wars Nightfall is incredibly optimized with a unique MCC system as well.
----ITS A TRAP!!!----
But in Guild Wars Nightfall you are stuck in instances and progress across 1 story-line, then there is just PVP. It may not be good, but in GE you can do other things.
Bren
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beat();
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Not to mention that most Guild Wars instances are way larger (and offer more freedom) than the GE maps...
Both have a linear sequence of maps through which you proceed, but in Guild Wars you have a (not that bad) story and way more variety and no painful, mindless grind. In the end you have several high end areas as well, not to mention GW:EN coming soon.
One other thing:
Actually Anarchy Online evolved over the years, to become one of the most well-done, polished and (probably *the*) content-richest MMORPGs ever made. While GE appears to me as a boring, repetitive and uninspired grindfest.
So I fail to see why IMC is supposed to be so much more talented than Funcom.
Unless of course it was meant to be ironic.
SOTNW didnt even last an entire day on my computer before uninstalling it. Its just Diablo, nothing more nothing less, except I have a bunch of other people getting in my way. This is why 99% of all asian MMOs suck, they are nothing more then Diablo clones.
Why are bashers (of any game) always trying so hard to force everyone to follow their way of thinking? The style of gameplay in this game is different from a typical MMO. Personally, I find it to be really refreshing. I like the combat a lot. I like feeling like I'm actually powerful. I like the occasional boss battles (which actually require quite a lot of work to kill).
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean you have to rant and rant and try to convince everyone else that the game sucks. Just because the game doesn't fit your small, puny idea of what a MMO should be doesn't mean you have to bash it. It's always good to have a variety of games out there. This game is definitely no clone. It breaks from the norm is so many ways.
I applaud the developers for taking a risk and going against standard MMO conventions. For what the game offers so far, it's very well done.
And it's extremely unfair to compare this brand new game to established games like GW, AO, etc. Guild Wars and the other games mentioned are some of the very best and they've had years and years to develop their core gameplay and content.
This game is brand new. Be smart and be realistic. If you play the game with reasonable expectations, you'll see that this game is extremely well done and has tons of future potential.
As for being grind or repetitive, umm...have you even played any other MMO? All MMO combat is basically autoattack with occasional button pushes. I find combat in this game is far, far better and more interesting.
Loads of potential... but very little in the way of anything close to delivery on anything substantial.
Not gonna bash the game any more than that. I read about the ability to control multi-characters simo and thought 'what a great feature'. And honestly, it is. I usually run more than one account with just about any game i've played anyway.
Again, great concept for the game... just not something I found appealing. Perhaps in another market it will do well. I just don't see this game being 'great' in the US/N.America.
In WoW, a standard combat interaction is as follows:
In most cases, you can autoattack and never use any skills and you'll do perfectly fine. In groups, it's basically the same thing as well. Even if you fight an elite mob, you're still basically doing the same thing. Autoattack, spam skill, loot. You do this thousands of times, over and over again. This is typical for western MMO's and I fail to see how this combat system is in any way interesting or innovative or challenging.
In SotNW, it's already a lot more involved because you're facing off against a large group and controlling a group of characters. Positioning is important. Tanking is important. Burst damage is important. Every encounter requires more thought than any WoW encounter will ever provide. Add in a boss and the combat changes dramatically.
I'm not saying that the combat is so wonderful or anything like that. I'm just pointing out that combat in this game can be far better than combat in a typical MMO.
It's as fun as you make it. You can AFK if you want. You can only autoattack if you want. Even in WoW, you can run from mob and watch your character fight. You don't have to press a single button.
Graphically this game is better than average, but nothing overly special. But, any game in which the only player interaction required is occasionally moving your toon from point A to point B does not have gameplay worth sticking around for.
It lacks the strategic elements of an RTS. It lacks the depth and complex combat of an RPG. The game tried to merge the two genres, but ended up with the strengths of neither.
I find it interesting when people post using words such as “I have been told” which is the base their arguments. The game has a trial, play it for a while then maybe your post will have some weight, because I don’t care what your sister’s boyfriend’s older brother’s friend says about a game as that only proves that they don’t like it and besides they were talking about their mom’s new tattoo not the game.
Now I bought and downloaded SOTNW the day it was available and last night I finally finished off my quest list and collected all 24 boss vouchers which got that team to lvl 23, 22 and 22… WooHoo… Ok, the fact that I am a casual gamer on SFTNW does have something to do with my 8 *Avatars being lvl 9 to lvl 23 after a month of play but the main thing is this:
Just because you can do something does not mean that you must!
So what if some people can lvl Afk that does not mean that you have too. No one is forcing you to AFK lvl, If you simply play the game you will lvl naturally. The argument that a game is bad because it allows Afk playing is like saying a game is bad because people can cheat, IE.. Every game ever made is bad. Name one game just one (1) that someone never cheated in using a hack, glitch or bug exploit, there is not one but by your rational this means that every game ever made sucks…. All I can say is wow (and I do not mean WOW).
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
av·a·tar /?æv ??t?r, ?æv ??t?r/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[av-uh-tahr, av-uh-tahr] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1.
Hindu Mythology. the descent of a deity to the earth in an incarnate form or some manifest shape; the incarnation of a god.
2.
an embodiment or personification, as of a principle, attitude, or view of life.
3.
Computers. a graphical image that represents a person, as on the Internet.
Also, I can tell your not a serious gamer as no real gamer would ever use the word toon for their Avatar. Nor would they Afk level.
Just because someone can use an aimbot does not mean that CS, BF2 or any other FPS is not worth playing and just because someone can use a farmbot in a MMO does not mean that the MMO are not playing.
Like my grandpa used to say, “just because someone jumps off a bridge does not mean that you must also jump"
SOTNW is a fun game, if you play it.
An so it begins
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.[/CENTER]
Um...What is the logic here? Your definition of 'serious gamer' must be wildly different from the norm. Toon is a widely accepted word to describe your in-game characters. It's not like most people use 100% correct grammar/spelling all the time in forum posts. Toon is used because it's short and sweet...both to spell and say.
If you want to be so anal, you can argue that serious gamers wouldn't waste the time to say the 3 syllables of avatar, when they can quickly say toon.
In addition, for SotNW, avatar is almost the wrong word. Since we're controlling a family in this game, I feel more like a commander of a small army. My family isn't me, so it's not my avatar either.