Hello, all. My name is Zorvan. Maybe you've heard of me, maybe not. Doesn't matter. I am here to inform you all that I have been developing a game for the last 10 years that will blow Darkfall, and every other wannabe PvP game out of the water. At this time, I really have nothing to offer you in terms of proof, but I can say that the game is more than ready for beta testing, unfortunately I won't be having beta tests right now. But if I were to have one, the game is definitely ready for it!!! So, please. Go tell your friends, your neighbors, your best friends wife while you're "visiting" as your friend is at work, TELL EVERYONE!!! Hype my game everywhere you can, as it will be the game to end all games!! The name of my game is Light-Ascension. Don't forget to write your congress person, as you will need official holidays dedicated to my game, as you will want to play it as often as possible. Until my next startling update (Q4 2012, right after the Apocalypse). See ya all then!!
Perfect, good to know
Then i can begin to plan everything im gonna do in that game.
Hello, all. My name is Zorvan. Maybe you've heard of me, maybe not. Doesn't matter. I am here to inform you all that I have been developing a game for the last 10 years that will blow Darkfall, and every other wannabe PvP game out of the water. At this time, I really have nothing to offer you in terms of proof, but I can say that the game is more than ready for beta testing, unfortunately I won't be having beta tests right now. But if I were to have one, the game is definitely ready for it!!! So, please. Go tell your friends, your neighbors, your best friends wife while you're "visiting" as your friend is at work, TELL EVERYONE!!! Hype my game everywhere you can, as it will be the game to end all games!! The name of my game is Light-Ascension. Don't forget to write your congress person, as you will need official holidays dedicated to my game, as you will want to play it as often as possible. Until my next startling update (Q4 2012, right after the Apocalypse). See ya all then!!
Man, Light-Ascension is gonna be the greatest game ever! And you haters who call the game vaporware don't know what you are talking about. Give me proof that Light-Ascension is vaporware. You can't can you. This guy said Light-Ascension is ready for beta testing so I'm sure it will be realeased soon. See you all in game!!
Meaning they have the game developed for an open beta but they need other equipment. Im guessing you just ignored that part though.
"In any case, there will be an official announcement on any development. Technically we're ready for a beta test today". As you can see by saying they were ready for beta test it was a statement about the how far the game was developed. The game is in closed beta.
Blind fanboy fury.
As has been stated several times already and explained as simply as we could. There is more to a beta then a updated alpha build. The intricacies of hardware, OS, software, and game have to be fleshed out. This can only be done on a production server which Tasos has stated is not purchased yet. So how on earth can he claim the game build is beta ready? He does not even know how it will run or IF there will be any game breaking bugs when they push the game onto the servers.
In order to have a beta, you have to have external testers. Since they do not... this game is firmly stuck in alpha.
Ok thanks for clearing up the alpha, beta thingie
Striktly speaking there seem to be no standard as such. It's more like a set of loosly agreed upon definitons on how do define the status of the game. The game to me seem to be on hold between internal/closed beta and an limited open beta. Someone stated that family, friends and trusted professionals may or may not be considered external testers. Personally I'm taking things as they come
As for the servers, I agree that they should be part of a beta. As I understand it the main challenge with the servers are to get them up and working. Getting the software to run isn't that troublesome if you know what you are doing. i think the expences, not the ability to get it to work on aserver, the the most important reason for the hold up.
--- And when we got more women on the team, it was like No, no, no. We need puppies and horses in there. John Smedley, SOE
As for the servers, I agree that they should be part of a beta. As I understand it the main challenge with the servers are to get them up and working. Getting the software to run isn't that troublesome if you know what you are doing. i think the expences, not the ability to get it to work on aserver, the the most important reason for the hold up.
As a professional that works on production servers (not in the gaming industry but software is software) your assumption is wrong. As I stated before the intricacies between hardware, OS, external software, and the production software make the initial setup very time consuming. Ask any game developer which is easier building a game for the PC or consoles... they will always say consoles because everything stays the same.
A dev cannot honestly say they have a working beta build until it is on a production server for beta. They can say they have code that is finalized to put on a server but it will hardly be stable or working. That is why Tasos said they could have beta now... He knows that most of the people reading his article will not understand how big a lie that actually is.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
Meaning they have the game developed for an open beta but they need other equipment. Im guessing you just ignored that part though.
"In any case, there will be an official announcement on any development. Technically we're ready for a beta test today". As you can see by saying they were ready for beta test it was a statement about the how far the game was developed. The game is in closed beta.
Blind fanboy fury.
As has been stated several times already and explained as simply as we could. There is more to a beta then a updated alpha build. The intricacies of hardware, OS, software, and game have to be fleshed out. This can only be done on a production server which Tasos has stated is not purchased yet. So how on earth can he claim the game build is beta ready? He does not even know how it will run or IF there will be any game breaking bugs when they push the game onto the servers.
In order to have a beta, you have to have external testers. Since they do not... this game is firmly stuck in alpha.
They've stated they have working beta build on servers since january and have been patching it up.
You said it yourself "friends and family= closed beta". Thats what their doing at this point.
Hello, all. My name is Zorvan. Maybe you've heard of me, maybe not. Doesn't matter. I am here to inform you all that I have been developing a game for the last 10 years that will blow Darkfall, and every other wannabe PvP game out of the water. At this time, I really have nothing to offer you in terms of proof, but I can say that the game is more than ready for beta testing, unfortunately I won't be having beta tests right now. But if I were to have one, the game is definitely ready for it!!! So, please. Go tell your friends, your neighbors, your best friends wife while you're "visiting" as your friend is at work, TELL EVERYONE!!! Hype my game everywhere you can, as it will be the game to end all games!! The name of my game is Light-Ascension. Don't forget to write your congress person, as you will need official holidays dedicated to my game, as you will want to play it as often as possible. Until my next startling update (Q4 2012, right after the Apocalypse). See ya all then!!
Man, Light-Ascension is gonna be the greatest game ever! And you haters who call the game vaporware don't know what you are talking about. Give me proof that Light-Ascension is vaporware. You can't can you. This guy said Light-Ascension is ready for beta testing so I'm sure it will be realeased soon. See you all in game!!
Wow someone is impersonating me. Am i truly that famous?
As for the servers, I agree that they should be part of a beta. As I understand it the main challenge with the servers are to get them up and working. Getting the software to run isn't that troublesome if you know what you are doing. i think the expences, not the ability to get it to work on aserver, the the most important reason for the hold up.
As a professional that works on production servers (not in the gaming industry but software is software) your assumption is wrong. As I stated before the intricacies between hardware, OS, external software, and the production software make the initial setup very time consuming. Ask any game developer which is easier building a game for the PC or consoles... they will always say consoles because everything stays the same.
A dev cannot honestly say they have a working beta build until it is on a production server for beta. They can say they have code that is finalized to put on a server but it will hardly be stable or working. That is why Tasos said they could have beta now... He knows that most of the people reading his article will not understand how big a lie that actually is.
They have had a beta build on servers since january and they've been patching it. Apparently he has one thats working.
They have had a beta build on servers since january and they've been patching it. Apparently he has one thats working.
First they have an alpha version not beta (beta implies external testers which there are none confirmed by the devs.
Second this is not a hard concept to understand man... beta and finally gold release will be on different hardware and by my experience a different OS build then what they are running now. Do they have an alpha server up... sure probably can handle 100 people maybe. Now lets got to production where they want thousands... this means they will probably end up with a server cluster.
To put it in words you understand.
right now they have a baby server.
Beta and release will be on full grown servers.
Do babies and adults differ? yes they do. (nod along if you understand).
There are so many elements Tasos and the other devs have not even begun to tackle yet... can't tackle until they have a publisher (even if it is them). However these issues must get RESOLVED before beta can get off the ground. The difficulty of these issues vary and the length of time can be affected by the quality and quantity of staff. We know they are a small company and we don't know the quality of their staff. This would imply a rather length setup process once a publisher is picked (probably 1 - 3 months internal configuration). So when adventurine announces they have a publish then expect beta in about 1 - 3 months after.
This hardly constitutes being ready "today".
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
They have had a beta build on servers since january and they've been patching it. Apparently he has one thats working.
First they have an alpha version not beta (beta implies external testers which there are none confirmed by the devs.
Second this is not a hard concept to understand man... beta and finally gold release will be on different hardware and by my experience a different OS build then what they are running now. Do they have an alpha server up... sure probably can handle 100 people maybe. Now lets got to production where they want thousands... this means they will probably end up with a server cluster.
To put it in words you understand.
right now they have a baby server.
Beta and release will be on full grown servers.
Do babies and adults differ? yes they do. (nod along if you understand).
There are so many elements Tasos and the other devs have not even begun to tackle yet... can't tackle until they have a publisher (even if it is them). However these issues must get RESOLVED before beta can get off the ground. The difficulty of these issues vary and the length of time can be affected by the quality and quantity of staff. We know they are a small company and we don't know the quality of their staff. This would imply a rather length setup process once a publisher is picked (probably 1 - 3 months internal configuration). So when adventurine announces they have a publish then expect beta in about 1 - 3 months after.
This hardly constitutes being ready "today".
Its not just the devs its their family and friends and since you said that equals closed beta than its beta.
That is possible yet you are assuming that they arent working with a server cluster but they said servers so they may very well be working with a server cluster. Of course probably not as big as the ones they plan to launch.
If they have been working on a server cluster since january than it would be more like comparing a midget to an adult. The only thing different is size.
Wow you still dont get it do you?
Tasos said as far as the GAME BEING DEVELOPED its ready for beta. Do you get it now?
Let me say it again. The game is developed for beta. WHICH IS WHAT HE MEANT.
Its not just the devs its their family and friends and since you said that equals closed beta than its beta.
That is possible yet you are assuming that they arent working with a server cluster but they said servers so they may very well be working with a server cluster. Of course probably not as big as the ones they plan to launch. If they have been working on a server cluster since january than it would be more like comparing a midget to an adult. The only thing different is size. Wow you still dont get it do you? Tasos said as far as the GAME BEING DEVELOPED its ready for beta. Do you get it now? Let me say it again. The game is developed for beta. WHICH IS WHAT HE MEANT.
/facepalm
You cannot possibly be dense.
Do you even know anything about setting up production servers and everything that entails? If not you need to stop right now because I do.
Does Tasos have a build of the game that is playable... probably.
Will that build work on a completely new system with different hardware and a different build of the OS the architecture is built on... Probably not.
This is not like throwing a gaming client on your new PC... this is much more complicated. Your talking raids, clusters, SANs, burstable networks just on the hardware side alone. Then they have to decide on what operating system they want to run on which can be partially dictated by the hardware they decide on. Your talking about clustering software, server administrative tools, network and server security, All of this affects the server client for the game.
Tasos knows all of this so his statement is misleading at best... a direct lie more then likely.
Tell you what... if they have the beta up in 2 months I will post a public apology to you on these boards. I won't even ask you to do the same... that is how sure I am about what I know and what Tasos has said.
This debate is over since I can't argue against your lack of knowledge. If you were at least in server administration or a network engineer we could have a discussion. You simply do not know enough about the topic to understand.
I applaud your conviction on the game and I only hope for your mental health it lives up to your expectations.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
Will that build work on a completely new system with different hardware and a different build of the OS the architecture is built on... Probably not. This is not like throwing a gaming client on your new PC... this is much more complicated. Your talking raids, clusters, SANs, burstable networks just on the hardware side alone. Then they have to decide on what operating system they want to run on which can be partially dictated by the hardware they decide on. Your talking about clustering software, server administrative tools, network and server security, All of this affects the server client for the game. Tasos knows all of this so his statement is misleading at best... a direct lie more then likely
Atziluth,
I understand where you are coming from atziluth. But I think you must make room to try to understand what communication is about before you throw that "lie" word around. I think we have stablished by now that beta status is not formally defined anywhere. If Tasos invite friends and family and call it closed beta, that is fine in my book. I have friends that is very good at what they do and who's opinin I would value more that some faceless gamer off the Internet. I must assume that Tasos is in the same position.
Tasos is a developer, when he says they are ready for beta, it could mean that the developers have done all they can to be ready for open beta. All the features that needs to be tested on servers are in their code now.
What you are talking about is the worries of the publisher. Aventurine hasn't decided if they are going to take on the publisher role. Until they do, they are just developers.
Sure there will be problems, they may have patch their game to get it to run on servers and a 1-3 month set-up time for a compex piece of software like this, sounds fair. That said, this game has been in development since 2003, 3 more months(assuming the publisherquestion have been dealt with), isn't that much. I for one understand that as developers they belive they are getting close to the end.
--- And when we got more women on the team, it was like No, no, no. We need puppies and horses in there. John Smedley, SOE
I understand where you are coming from atziluth. But I think you must make room to try to understand what communication is about before you throw that "lie" word around. I think we have stablished by now that beta status is not formally defined anywhere. If Tasos invite friends and family and call it closed beta, that is fine in my book. I have friends that is very good at what they do and who's opinin I would value more that some faceless gamer off the Internet. I must assume that Tasos is in the same position. Tasos is a developer, when he says they are ready for beta, it could mean that the developers have done all they can to be ready for open beta. All the features that needs to be tested on servers are in their code now. What you are talking about is the worries of the publisher. Aventurine hasn't decided if they are going to take on the publisher role. Until they do, they are just developers. Sure there will be problems, they may have patch their game to get it to run on servers and a 1-3 month set-up time for a compex piece of software like this, sounds fair. That said, this game has been in development since 2003, 3 more months(assuming the publisherquestion have been dealt with), isn't that much. I for one understand that as developers they belive they are getting close to the end.
Your right Tasos is a developer and as such he knows better then to make statements that "beta is ready today". You cannot say that line was not misleading. Look at the fanboys on the official forums that are saying beta could still hit before summers end.
Why would they think this if the statement was not misleading?
This is not the first time Tasos has used vague and misleading statements to spin the game development.
I do agree with you that waiting a while longer is not that big a deal... I am not arguing that point. The problem stems from the fanboys that blow sunshine up peoples back sides when a rational person would see that this game is in trouble. I would love to see DF succeed and I think if it had been developed by a proven company it would. This game reeks of shadowbane. The Devs are evasive and misleading. The information on the game is vague and generalized. The development time is getting long in the tooth.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
Your right Tasos is a developer and as such he knows better then to make statements that "beta is ready today". You cannot say that line was not misleading. Look at the fanboys on the official forums that are saying beta could still hit before summers end.
Why would they think this if the statement was not misleading? This is not the first time Tasos has used vague and misleading statements to spin the game development. I do agree with you that waiting a while longer is not that big a deal... I am not arguing that point. The problem stems from the fanboys that blow sunshine up peoples back sides when a rational person would see that this game is in trouble. I would love to see DF succeed and I think if it had been developed by a proven company it would. This game reeks of shadowbane. The Devs are evasive and misleading. The information on the game is vague and generalized. The development time is getting long in the tooth.
He is saying "Technically we're ready for a beta test today, and every day that goes by, we get more ready."
Also
"We want to settle this before we move to a beta, and preferably do that as soon as possible, but we're still considering several options."
He is NOT saying "beta is ready today". There is is a suddle but important difference in that. I stand with my assesment that Tasos is speaking as a developer with regards to the software and NOT to the hardware.
The summer statement is from a former journal (#9) where Tasos says;
"We've specified that our internal target date is this summer and we can't get more specific yet, but we will when we're ready to make an announcement."
The actual beta statement hasn't been made yet. Noone has been lying (yet )
I think you guys can give DF some slack about this, especially on the day that AoC announced they would have to move their releasedate by half a year. And how much did WAR move their release date ? Almost a year? And I for one belive release dates are more important that betadates.
--- And when we got more women on the team, it was like No, no, no. We need puppies and horses in there. John Smedley, SOE
He is saying "Technically we're ready for a beta test today, and every day that goes by, we get more ready."
Also "We want to settle this before we move to a beta, and preferably do that as soon as possible, but we're still considering several options." He is NOT saying "beta is ready today". There is is a suddle but important difference in that. I stand with my assesment that Tasos is speaking as a developer with regards to the software and NOT to the hardware. The summer statement is from a former journal (#9) where Tasos says; "We've specified that our internal target date is this summer and we can't get more specific yet, but we will when we're ready to make an announcement." The actual beta statement hasn't been made yet. Noone has been lying (yet ) I think you guys can give DF some slack about this, especially on the day that AoC announced they would have to move their releasedate by half a year. And how much did WAR move their release date ? Almost a year? And I for one belive release dates are more important that betadates.
Logic really is not second nature to you guys is it.
Lets dissect this shall we.
Tasos quote: "Technically we're ready for a beta test today"
Now your argument: "He is NOT saying "beta is ready today"."
Can you connect the dots please.
"We've specified that our internal target date is this summer and we can't get more specific yet, but we will when we're ready to make an announcement."
So you are saying this statement does not imply closed beta this summer? This is what they have been doing since 2005... "beta coming soon threads" You would think after 2 years they might... just might smarten up and say they have no clue when beta will be. That would not string the sheeple along however and the rabid fan boys might go away... GASP!
As to AoC and WAR delays... and?
1) Both are in closed beta.
2) Both have movies and pics showing the combat system and skills in action.
3) Both have award winning companies with deep pocket publishers.
4) Both have been infinitely more forth coming with information.
DF cannot claim any of the 4 points above. We are talking apples and oranges here. Just like questionable you need to stop right here... you know nothing about what you are speaking about.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
Lets dissect this shall we. Tasos quote: "Technically we're ready for a beta test today " Now your argument: "He is NOT saying "beta is ready today"." Can you connect the dots please. Talos is saying "our beta software is now ready to run on a server" NOT "our beta software is now running on a server". "We've specified that our internal target date is this summer and we can't get more specific yet, but we will when we're ready to make an announcement." So you are saying this statement does not imply closed beta this summer? He isn't imlying anything. He is stating the fact that they have an internal goal of a beta this summer. He is also saying he is not yet sure when the beta is going to bet. So, Tasos is not prepared to give you a date yet. And that is bad how ? It is better than giving you a date and then move it forward 3 months before it comes up ? If DF is a scam, they are now painting themselves into a corner when they say their software is ready for beta. The time remaing is the time it takes to decide if they are going to publish it or not. Then they or or their publisher have to plan the beta, buy the hardware, set it up etc. These is pretty concrete and timelimited tasks. So after 2-4 months their investors are now going to want to see a publisher contracts see servers, see betas up and running, see some kind of progress. If not, I am sure they will want to take actions to get their money back. Beliving aventurine or not, you will be getting the answer of the vaporware question before christmas As to AoC and WAR delays... and? Delays is about not being able no deliver as promised. It is an clear indication that the companies are hyping their games beyond capacity. Its a big "and" if you ask me.
--- And when we got more women on the team, it was like No, no, no. We need puppies and horses in there. John Smedley, SOE
Lets dissect this shall we. Tasos quote: "Technically we're ready for a beta test today " Now your argument: "He is NOT saying "beta is ready today"." Can you connect the dots please. Talos is saying "our beta software is now ready to run on a server" NOT "our beta software is now running on a server". "We've specified that our internal target date is this summer and we can't get more specific yet, but we will when we're ready to make an announcement." So you are saying this statement does not imply closed beta this summer? He isn't imlying anything. He is stating the fact that they have an internal goal of a beta this summer. He is also saying he is not yet sure when the beta is going to bet. So, Tasos is not prepared to give you a date yet. And that is bad how ? It is better than giving you a date and then move it forward 3 months before it comes up ? If DF is a scam, they are now painting themselves into a corner when they say their software is ready for beta. The time remaing is the time it takes to decide if they are going to publish it or not. Then they or or their publisher have to plan the beta, buy the hardware, set it up etc. These is pretty concrete and timelimited tasks. So after 2-4 months their investors are now going to want to see a publisher contracts see servers, see betas up and running, see some kind of progress. If not, I am sure they will want to take actions to get their money back. Beliving aventurine or not, you will be getting the answer of the vaporware question before christmas As to AoC and WAR delays... and? Delays is about not being able no deliver as promised. It is an clear indication that the companies are hyping their games beyond capacity. Its a big "and" if you ask me.
Here is the problem that I think you and questionable are missing. In order for his beta build to work on a beta server he will have to modify that software. The developers will have to make another build fixing the issues they come across when trying to run it on the production servers. What he has is a pre-beta version of the server software which means it is not beta ready. The line is misleading... Just look at the official boards... plenty of threads were started where people thought the beta is just around the corner because they could start beta today.
As to delays... all MMOs have them. When a company sets a date it is a target date... something they are shooting for not a promise to the followers it will come out exactly on that date. Sometimes you are correct companies are hyping beyond what they can produce... but that is not always the case. WAR is a good example... They have several thousands of testers on production servers right now in beta... if the game was horrible word would leak out. Word has leaked for tabula rasa that it is a shadow of what fans thought it would be. The reasons they gave was to revisit some of the first work they did and bring it up to the quality of the newer material. They wanted to do this now instead of pushing it off until after the game was complete. This extended their release date back about 6 months. AoC is a little harder to nail down because the beta just started.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
I think it would be a an amazing feat of development if the DF team have managed to put the game into beta this year.
Since the produktion really begun in 2003, (same as AoC) but DF have some really special features. As the naval combat for example. That part alone must have taken years to develop.
Lets dissect this shall we. Tasos quote: "Technically we're ready for a beta test today " Now your argument: "He is NOT saying "beta is ready today"." Can you connect the dots please. Talos is saying "our beta software is now ready to run on a server" NOT "our beta software is now running on a server". "We've specified that our internal target date is this summer and we can't get more specific yet, but we will when we're ready to make an announcement." So you are saying this statement does not imply closed beta this summer? He isn't imlying anything. He is stating the fact that they have an internal goal of a beta this summer. He is also saying he is not yet sure when the beta is going to bet. So, Tasos is not prepared to give you a date yet. And that is bad how ? It is better than giving you a date and then move it forward 3 months before it comes up ? If DF is a scam, they are now painting themselves into a corner when they say their software is ready for beta. The time remaing is the time it takes to decide if they are going to publish it or not. Then they or or their publisher have to plan the beta, buy the hardware, set it up etc. These is pretty concrete and timelimited tasks. So after 2-4 months their investors are now going to want to see a publisher contracts see servers, see betas up and running, see some kind of progress. If not, I am sure they will want to take actions to get their money back. Beliving aventurine or not, you will be getting the answer of the vaporware question before christmas As to AoC and WAR delays... and? Delays is about not being able no deliver as promised. It is an clear indication that the companies are hyping their games beyond capacity. Its a big "and" if you ask me.
Here is the problem that I think you and questionable are missing. In order for his beta build to work on a beta server he will have to modify that software. The developers will have to make another build fixing the issues they come across when trying to run it on the production servers. What he has is a pre-beta version of the server software which means it is not beta ready. The line is misleading... Just look at the official boards... plenty of threads were started where people thought the beta is just around the corner because they could start beta today.
As to delays... all MMOs have them. When a company sets a date it is a target date... something they are shooting for not a promise to the followers it will come out exactly on that date. Sometimes you are correct companies are hyping beyond what they can produce... but that is not always the case. WAR is a good example... They have several thousands of testers on production servers right now in beta... if the game was horrible word would leak out. Word has leaked for tabula rasa that it is a shadow of what fans thought it would be. The reasons they gave was to revisit some of the first work they did and bring it up to the quality of the newer material. They wanted to do this now instead of pushing it off until after the game was complete. This extended their release date back about 6 months. AoC is a little harder to nail down because the beta just started.
His beta build is on a beta server that he among other devs and their families and friends are testing. The test server is not much different than production server. So a game in beta has pre-beta server software? Seriously?
They also said they had to deal with discussing whether to self-publish or go with a publisher BEFORE they could get beta started. So those who made those threads DID NOT read it all the way.
Exactly so what makes this one any different? If this one misses a date what makes it any different than a game that missed its date? They have only missed 2 announced dates.
Here is the problem that I think you and questionable are missing. In order for his beta build to work on a beta server he will have to modify that software. The developers will have to make another build fixing the issues they come across when trying to run it on the production servers. What he has is a pre-beta version of the server software which means it is not beta ready. The line is misleading... Just look at the official boards... plenty of threads were started where people thought the beta is just around the corner because they could start beta today. As to delays... all MMOs have them. When a company sets a date it is a target date... something they are shooting for not a promise to the followers it will come out exactly on that date. Sometimes you are correct companies are hyping beyond what they can produce... but that is not always the case. WAR is a good example... They have several thousands of testers on production servers right now in beta... if the game was horrible word would leak out. Word has leaked for tabula rasa that it is a shadow of what fans thought it would be. The reasons they gave was to revisit some of the first work they did and bring it up to the quality of the newer material. They wanted to do this now instead of pushing it off until after the game was complete. This extended their release date back about 6 months. AoC is a little harder to nail down because the beta just started.
His beta build is on a beta server that he among other devs and their families and friends are testing. The test server is not much different than production server. So a game in beta has pre-beta server software? Seriously?
They also said they had to deal with discussing whether to self-publish or go with a publisher BEFORE they could get beta started. So those who made those threads DID NOT read it all the way.
Exactly so what makes this one any different? If this one misses a date what makes it any different than a game that missed its date? They have only missed 2 announced dates.
Atzzilut,
Of course you will need to adress any faullty code, that is what beta is about. If it doesn't run on servers, you patch it. I'm am not missing that point at all. My point is that this is pretty easy stuff to fix if you know what you are doing. You are "loosing" weeks on it rather than months and years. You are blackpainting the situation.
--- And when we got more women on the team, it was like No, no, no. We need puppies and horses in there. John Smedley, SOE
I think it would be a an amazing feat of development if the DF team have managed to put the game into beta this year. Since the produktion really begun in 2003, (same as AoC) but DF have some really special features. As the naval combat for example. That part alone must have taken years to develop. So if Tasos say they want beta 2007.......
Stop saying they began developement in 2003. that is a blatant lie. They began in 2001. Thats 6 years , still in alpha, and no beta in sight.
If the AOC delay shows us anything, its that games need to be in beta for a year or more. And since this game won't even be in beta for a long time, its going to be years before this gamei s released. SO don't hold your breath guys.
I think it would be a an amazing feat of development if the DF team have managed to put the game into beta this year. Since the produktion really begun in 2003, (same as AoC) but DF have some really special features. As the naval combat for example. That part alone must have taken years to develop. So if Tasos say they want beta 2007.......
Stop saying they began developement in 2003. that is a blatant lie. They began in 2001. Thats 6 years , still in alpha, and no beta in sight.
If the AOC delay shows us anything, its that games need to be in beta for a year or more. And since this game won't even be in beta for a long time, its going to be years before this gamei s released. SO don't hold your breath guys.
Spread your ignorance elsewhere. Rasorwax joined with aventurine in 2003 where they pretty much scratched previous work and started over.
It shows that every game has delays not "beta needs to be in for a year or more" thats complete BS. Once again its just you making crap up so please stfu and leave.
its '08 or bust for this game i think... if they cant even get functional servers up this year, i think the financial backers will quit investing.... honestly if i was investing millions into something that just didnt seem to deliver in 4-5 years .... i wouldnt have much faith in it.... and would take my money elsewhere.
Playing: EVE Online Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online Looking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2 KUF2's Official Website - http://www.kufii.com/ENG/ -
I think it would be a an amazing feat of development if the DF team have managed to put the game into beta this year. Since the produktion really begun in 2003, (same as AoC) but DF have some really special features. As the naval combat for example. That part alone must have taken years to develop. So if Tasos say they want beta 2007.......
Stop saying they began developement in 2003. that is a blatant lie. They began in 2001. Thats 6 years , still in alpha, and no beta in sight.
If the AOC delay shows us anything, its that games need to be in beta for a year or more. And since this game won't even be in beta for a long time, its going to be years before this gamei s released. SO don't hold your breath guys.
Spread your ignorance elsewhere. Rasorwax joined with aventurine in 2003 where they pretty much scratched previous work and started over.
It shows that every game has delays not "beta needs to be in for a year or more" thats complete BS. Once again its just you making crap up so please stfu and leave.
I have never seen one item that says they started over in 2003. You are totally and completely making that up.
In fact in early 2003, they announced beta would be in september of 2003. So obviously they weren't starting from scratch.
Comments
Then i can begin to plan everything im gonna do in that game.
/sarcasm
As has been stated several times already and explained as simply as we could. There is more to a beta then a updated alpha build. The intricacies of hardware, OS, software, and game have to be fleshed out. This can only be done on a production server which Tasos has stated is not purchased yet. So how on earth can he claim the game build is beta ready? He does not even know how it will run or IF there will be any game breaking bugs when they push the game onto the servers.
In order to have a beta, you have to have external testers. Since they do not... this game is firmly stuck in alpha.
Ok thanks for clearing up the alpha, beta thingie
Striktly speaking there seem to be no standard as such. It's more like a set of loosly agreed upon definitons on how do define the status of the game. The game to me seem to be on hold between internal/closed beta and an limited open beta. Someone stated that family, friends and trusted professionals may or may not be considered external testers. Personally I'm taking things as they come
As for the servers, I agree that they should be part of a beta. As I understand it the main challenge with the servers are to get them up and working. Getting the software to run isn't that troublesome if you know what you are doing. i think the expences, not the ability to get it to work on aserver, the the most important reason for the hold up.
---
And when we got more women on the team, it was like No, no, no. We need puppies and horses in there.
John Smedley, SOE
As a professional that works on production servers (not in the gaming industry but software is software) your assumption is wrong. As I stated before the intricacies between hardware, OS, external software, and the production software make the initial setup very time consuming. Ask any game developer which is easier building a game for the PC or consoles... they will always say consoles because everything stays the same.
A dev cannot honestly say they have a working beta build until it is on a production server for beta. They can say they have code that is finalized to put on a server but it will hardly be stable or working. That is why Tasos said they could have beta now... He knows that most of the people reading his article will not understand how big a lie that actually is.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
As has been stated several times already and explained as simply as we could. There is more to a beta then a updated alpha build. The intricacies of hardware, OS, software, and game have to be fleshed out. This can only be done on a production server which Tasos has stated is not purchased yet. So how on earth can he claim the game build is beta ready? He does not even know how it will run or IF there will be any game breaking bugs when they push the game onto the servers.
In order to have a beta, you have to have external testers. Since they do not... this game is firmly stuck in alpha.
They've stated they have working beta build on servers since january and have been patching it up.
You said it yourself "friends and family= closed beta". Thats what their doing at this point.
Wow someone is impersonating me. Am i truly that famous?
Well go play LA and ill stay here in DF.
As a professional that works on production servers (not in the gaming industry but software is software) your assumption is wrong. As I stated before the intricacies between hardware, OS, external software, and the production software make the initial setup very time consuming. Ask any game developer which is easier building a game for the PC or consoles... they will always say consoles because everything stays the same.
A dev cannot honestly say they have a working beta build until it is on a production server for beta. They can say they have code that is finalized to put on a server but it will hardly be stable or working. That is why Tasos said they could have beta now... He knows that most of the people reading his article will not understand how big a lie that actually is.
They have had a beta build on servers since january and they've been patching it. Apparently he has one thats working.
Can you prove that? Has anyone from the outside seen it? No. If they did have a playable beta, they would have shown it to someone on the outside.
Second this is not a hard concept to understand man... beta and finally gold release will be on different hardware and by my experience a different OS build then what they are running now. Do they have an alpha server up... sure probably can handle 100 people maybe. Now lets got to production where they want thousands... this means they will probably end up with a server cluster.
To put it in words you understand.
right now they have a baby server.
Beta and release will be on full grown servers.
Do babies and adults differ? yes they do. (nod along if you understand).
There are so many elements Tasos and the other devs have not even begun to tackle yet... can't tackle until they have a publisher (even if it is them). However these issues must get RESOLVED before beta can get off the ground. The difficulty of these issues vary and the length of time can be affected by the quality and quantity of staff. We know they are a small company and we don't know the quality of their staff. This would imply a rather length setup process once a publisher is picked (probably 1 - 3 months internal configuration). So when adventurine announces they have a publish then expect beta in about 1 - 3 months after.
This hardly constitutes being ready "today".
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
Second this is not a hard concept to understand man... beta and finally gold release will be on different hardware and by my experience a different OS build then what they are running now. Do they have an alpha server up... sure probably can handle 100 people maybe. Now lets got to production where they want thousands... this means they will probably end up with a server cluster.
To put it in words you understand.
right now they have a baby server.
Beta and release will be on full grown servers.
Do babies and adults differ? yes they do. (nod along if you understand).
There are so many elements Tasos and the other devs have not even begun to tackle yet... can't tackle until they have a publisher (even if it is them). However these issues must get RESOLVED before beta can get off the ground. The difficulty of these issues vary and the length of time can be affected by the quality and quantity of staff. We know they are a small company and we don't know the quality of their staff. This would imply a rather length setup process once a publisher is picked (probably 1 - 3 months internal configuration). So when adventurine announces they have a publish then expect beta in about 1 - 3 months after.
This hardly constitutes being ready "today".
Its not just the devs its their family and friends and since you said that equals closed beta than its beta.
That is possible yet you are assuming that they arent working with a server cluster but they said servers so they may very well be working with a server cluster. Of course probably not as big as the ones they plan to launch.
If they have been working on a server cluster since january than it would be more like comparing a midget to an adult. The only thing different is size.
Wow you still dont get it do you?
Tasos said as far as the GAME BEING DEVELOPED its ready for beta. Do you get it now?
Let me say it again. The game is developed for beta. WHICH IS WHAT HE MEANT.
You cannot possibly be dense.
Do you even know anything about setting up production servers and everything that entails? If not you need to stop right now because I do.
Does Tasos have a build of the game that is playable... probably.
Will that build work on a completely new system with different hardware and a different build of the OS the architecture is built on... Probably not.
This is not like throwing a gaming client on your new PC... this is much more complicated. Your talking raids, clusters, SANs, burstable networks just on the hardware side alone. Then they have to decide on what operating system they want to run on which can be partially dictated by the hardware they decide on. Your talking about clustering software, server administrative tools, network and server security, All of this affects the server client for the game.
Tasos knows all of this so his statement is misleading at best... a direct lie more then likely.
Tell you what... if they have the beta up in 2 months I will post a public apology to you on these boards. I won't even ask you to do the same... that is how sure I am about what I know and what Tasos has said.
This debate is over since I can't argue against your lack of knowledge. If you were at least in server administration or a network engineer we could have a discussion. You simply do not know enough about the topic to understand.
I applaud your conviction on the game and I only hope for your mental health it lives up to your expectations.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
Atziluth,
I understand where you are coming from atziluth. But I think you must make room to try to understand what communication is about before you throw that "lie" word around. I think we have stablished by now that beta status is not formally defined anywhere. If Tasos invite friends and family and call it closed beta, that is fine in my book. I have friends that is very good at what they do and who's opinin I would value more that some faceless gamer off the Internet. I must assume that Tasos is in the same position.
Tasos is a developer, when he says they are ready for beta, it could mean that the developers have done all they can to be ready for open beta. All the features that needs to be tested on servers are in their code now.
What you are talking about is the worries of the publisher. Aventurine hasn't decided if they are going to take on the publisher role. Until they do, they are just developers.
Sure there will be problems, they may have patch their game to get it to run on servers and a 1-3 month set-up time for a compex piece of software like this, sounds fair. That said, this game has been in development since 2003, 3 more months(assuming the publisherquestion have been dealt with), isn't that much. I for one understand that as developers they belive they are getting close to the end.
---
And when we got more women on the team, it was like No, no, no. We need puppies and horses in there.
John Smedley, SOE
Why would they think this if the statement was not misleading?
This is not the first time Tasos has used vague and misleading statements to spin the game development.
I do agree with you that waiting a while longer is not that big a deal... I am not arguing that point. The problem stems from the fanboys that blow sunshine up peoples back sides when a rational person would see that this game is in trouble. I would love to see DF succeed and I think if it had been developed by a proven company it would. This game reeks of shadowbane. The Devs are evasive and misleading. The information on the game is vague and generalized. The development time is getting long in the tooth.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
Also
"We want to settle this before we move to a beta, and preferably do that as soon as possible, but we're still considering several options."
He is NOT saying "beta is ready today". There is is a suddle but important difference in that. I stand with my assesment that Tasos is speaking as a developer with regards to the software and NOT to the hardware.
The summer statement is from a former journal (#9) where Tasos says;
"We've specified that our internal target date is this summer and we can't get more specific yet, but we will when we're ready to make an announcement."
The actual beta statement hasn't been made yet. Noone has been lying (yet
)
I think you guys can give DF some slack about this, especially on the day that AoC announced they would have to move their releasedate by half a year. And how much did WAR move their release date ? Almost a year? And I for one belive release dates are more important that betadates.
---
And when we got more women on the team, it was like No, no, no. We need puppies and horses in there.
John Smedley, SOE
Lets dissect this shall we.
Tasos quote: "Technically we're ready for a beta test today"
Now your argument: "He is NOT saying "beta is ready today"."
Can you connect the dots please.
"We've specified that our internal target date is this summer and we can't get more specific yet, but we will when we're ready to make an announcement."
So you are saying this statement does not imply closed beta this summer? This is what they have been doing since 2005... "beta coming soon threads" You would think after 2 years they might... just might smarten up and say they have no clue when beta will be. That would not string the sheeple along however and the rabid fan boys might go away... GASP!
As to AoC and WAR delays... and?
1) Both are in closed beta.
2) Both have movies and pics showing the combat system and skills in action.
3) Both have award winning companies with deep pocket publishers.
4) Both have been infinitely more forth coming with information.
DF cannot claim any of the 4 points above. We are talking apples and oranges here. Just like questionable you need to stop right here... you know nothing about what you are speaking about.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
---
And when we got more women on the team, it was like No, no, no. We need puppies and horses in there.
John Smedley, SOE
Here is the problem that I think you and questionable are missing. In order for his beta build to work on a beta server he will have to modify that software. The developers will have to make another build fixing the issues they come across when trying to run it on the production servers. What he has is a pre-beta version of the server software which means it is not beta ready. The line is misleading... Just look at the official boards... plenty of threads were started where people thought the beta is just around the corner because they could start beta today.
As to delays... all MMOs have them. When a company sets a date it is a target date... something they are shooting for not a promise to the followers it will come out exactly on that date. Sometimes you are correct companies are hyping beyond what they can produce... but that is not always the case. WAR is a good example... They have several thousands of testers on production servers right now in beta... if the game was horrible word would leak out. Word has leaked for tabula rasa that it is a shadow of what fans thought it would be. The reasons they gave was to revisit some of the first work they did and bring it up to the quality of the newer material. They wanted to do this now instead of pushing it off until after the game was complete. This extended their release date back about 6 months. AoC is a little harder to nail down because the beta just started.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
I think it would be a an amazing feat of development if the DF team have managed to put the game into beta this year.
Since the produktion really begun in 2003, (same as AoC) but DF have some really special features. As the naval combat for example. That part alone must have taken years to develop.
So if Tasos say they want beta 2007.......
Here is the problem that I think you and questionable are missing. In order for his beta build to work on a beta server he will have to modify that software. The developers will have to make another build fixing the issues they come across when trying to run it on the production servers. What he has is a pre-beta version of the server software which means it is not beta ready. The line is misleading... Just look at the official boards... plenty of threads were started where people thought the beta is just around the corner because they could start beta today.
As to delays... all MMOs have them. When a company sets a date it is a target date... something they are shooting for not a promise to the followers it will come out exactly on that date. Sometimes you are correct companies are hyping beyond what they can produce... but that is not always the case. WAR is a good example... They have several thousands of testers on production servers right now in beta... if the game was horrible word would leak out. Word has leaked for tabula rasa that it is a shadow of what fans thought it would be. The reasons they gave was to revisit some of the first work they did and bring it up to the quality of the newer material. They wanted to do this now instead of pushing it off until after the game was complete. This extended their release date back about 6 months. AoC is a little harder to nail down because the beta just started.
His beta build is on a beta server that he among other devs and their families and friends are testing. The test server is not much different than production server. So a game in beta has pre-beta server software? Seriously?
They also said they had to deal with discussing whether to self-publish or go with a publisher BEFORE they could get beta started. So those who made those threads DID NOT read it all the way.
Exactly so what makes this one any different? If this one misses a date what makes it any different than a game that missed its date? They have only missed 2 announced dates.
I am done here man... My final post to you is here:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/143591/page/4
It really is not worth my time talking with you. I will give you the last word.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
They also said they had to deal with discussing whether to self-publish or go with a publisher BEFORE they could get beta started. So those who made those threads DID NOT read it all the way.
Exactly so what makes this one any different? If this one misses a date what makes it any different than a game that missed its date? They have only missed 2 announced dates.
Atzzilut,
Of course you will need to adress any faullty code, that is what beta is about. If it doesn't run on servers, you patch it. I'm am not missing that point at all. My point is that this is pretty easy stuff to fix if you know what you are doing. You are "loosing" weeks on it rather than months and years. You are blackpainting the situation.
---
And when we got more women on the team, it was like No, no, no. We need puppies and horses in there.
John Smedley, SOE
If the AOC delay shows us anything, its that games need to be in beta for a year or more. And since this game won't even be in beta for a long time, its going to be years before this gamei s released. SO don't hold your breath guys.
If the AOC delay shows us anything, its that games need to be in beta for a year or more. And since this game won't even be in beta for a long time, its going to be years before this gamei s released. SO don't hold your breath guys.
Spread your ignorance elsewhere. Rasorwax joined with aventurine in 2003 where they pretty much scratched previous work and started over.
It shows that every game has delays not "beta needs to be in for a year or more" thats complete BS. Once again its just you making crap up so please stfu and leave.
its '08 or bust for this game i think... if they cant even get functional servers up this year, i think the financial backers will quit investing.... honestly if i was investing millions into something that just didnt seem to deliver in 4-5 years .... i wouldnt have much faith in it.... and would take my money elsewhere.
Playing: EVE Online
Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online
Looking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2
KUF2's Official Website - http://www.kufii.com/ENG/ -
If the AOC delay shows us anything, its that games need to be in beta for a year or more. And since this game won't even be in beta for a long time, its going to be years before this gamei s released. SO don't hold your breath guys.
Spread your ignorance elsewhere. Rasorwax joined with aventurine in 2003 where they pretty much scratched previous work and started over.
It shows that every game has delays not "beta needs to be in for a year or more" thats complete BS. Once again its just you making crap up so please stfu and leave.
I have never seen one item that says they started over in 2003. You are totally and completely making that up.
In fact in early 2003, they announced beta would be in september of 2003. So obviously they weren't starting from scratch.