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The term "Fun PvP"
Ferusa
Member Posts: 211
Hello, I am indeed relatively new to MMO's, I have only played Shadowbane for a day or two, WoW for two years, and lotro for a little bit, I was just wondering, everyone says the PvP in wow is boring, and the same for lotro, not neccisarily everyone, but a vast majority of the mmorpg.com population. I was wondering, what is different in games from WoW that make it fun, because I did find it fun for some time, besides the fact that it was really a grind, I thought the action was good along with the abilities, I have seen other games played, and videos but I just don't seem to get what is so special about it, could someone help me out here?
Though we have heard of stupid haste in war, cleverness has never been seen associated with long delays.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
Comments
Personally the only way I see WoW's PvP is flawed is because the only way to do it effectively is to be level 70 and fight people your level. But, half of WoW's community is level 70 so it's not really a problem. I guess other games' PvP just doesn't have these problems.
It will be another good few years before an MMO figures out how to properly balance PvP.
Objectives , Rewards, and Penalties . These make PvP fun imo, you need atleast 2 of these to make PvP Work, older games like EQ , UO worked on Rewards and Penalties , if you kill you take if you die you lose, simple but effective to make PvP competitive. DAOC and Shadowbane worked on all 3 which is why in most part people bring them up so much in regards to good pvp, Objective, take the enemy keeps, reward items / realm points / bragging rights , penalties lose items / lose keeps / lose realm bonuses / ect ect.
WoW only has 1, Rewards, there is no objective, there is no penalties, all you do is kill and die and be rewarded for it no matter how good or bad you are, this makes PvP boring. Theres no competition if you have no point to strive for and no fear of death or loss.
I don't get why it is fun to grind 70 levels so you can pvp?.. IMho.. pvp is about showing others how good you are as a player. But most games now seem to focus on how high level your character is. So level 70 will always win against level 60. Sure I could grind 70 levels, waste an entire year doing that. And then finally i can kill lower levels, and with some luck other level 70 players as well.
This is CvC not pvp. only thing you can call pvp in these types of games is the eternal race against others players grinding your character to the max. lol.. kill me now.
My cool sig: Turrets suck.
The only game i've ever played that you didn't have worry about leveling for pvp was Guild Wars where you can create a pvp only character that starts at the max level. At least with wow you can join a pve realm where 70 don't gank you when your leveling, howvever in game like L2, good luck leveling without PKers on you non-stop.
People say wows pvp is a joke because, well it is imo. Battlegrounds/Arena... have rewards as someone said, but you gain wether you win or lose. if you lose you still get honor/tolkiens, and arena points. god theres always at least 15-20 afkers in AV...
RvR is where its at for a good pvp experience imo.. DaoC had it, and Warhammer will be taking it over
There is something about wow, lotr, eve-online, etc that disconnects you from the action somehow... After a short time of playing each, the adrenalin rush or the personal pain from the loss quickly deminishes and you get more distant. I don't know if this is due to the overcomplexities, delayed response, overstimulation of the senses, or what it is... The simpler/yet fast paced mmorpg's seem to keep me close to the action. One of the ones I keep going back to is World of Pirates. But there are a few other games out there that allow hundreds of people to engage in pvp together in the same battle realtime. That's what holds my attention, not some reward and punnishment system. Just pure competition against dozens or hundreds real time.
I know this is just my opinion, but it seems to be the opinion of many.
IT does not have to be PVP then, CVC is true to RPG mechanics.
Much higher characters beating low level characters without breaking sweat is as it should be. A level40 should beat a level 25 without breaking sweat. This genre is all about character progression, and the prospect of having all player-skill-based PvP goes against everything that is inherent to RPGs. The merit you, as player, show, has to be investment in your character's progression... And the strength you should take pride in is your character's strength, not yours.
It seems to be that the genre is in danger of being infested with players who have no fondness for the basics of RPG. They ask that the genre be bent out of shape to play more like a FPS or maybe an RTS, but that would basically mean doing way with the genre. A new breed of MMOFPS or other sorts of MMO action games with some RPG elements thrown in seems to be in the horizon; I think they would be much more suitable for these players.
... fun is when u are having fun period
i guess if people say that a pvp system is not fun , must be unbalenced
but if it is unbalanced doesnt mean its not fun , it means its not fair.
i dont think anyone can define if a game is fun or not , ok a cumunity can have a opinion , but that doesnt mean you cant have fun with it right ?
exemple : americans dont like soccer that much , some might even say its not fun ..
now ask if soccer is fun to a brazilian
crappy exemple just to say :
never blind folow public opinions on anything
folow your emotions , its the only thing that counts.
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I agree with Neoteo. I also play first person shooters online, almost always where nothing persists except (hopefully) Punkbuster GUID/hardware bans. Everything is about winning the objective of the map (whatever that is). Its almost certainly going to be over and beyond all recall in five minutes to an hour.
I just don't have this ingrained feeling that virtually shooting some guy has got to mean something to either of us. Unless he's shot me a lot already in which case I want to get him back (he's probably hacking after all...)
As long as there is an objective, I'm up for it. Any reward is secondary to playing well, and any punishment is an annoying distraction from getting on with the next match.
If it turns out FFA PVP full-loot is your thing, have fun. If it isn't, then you're probably like most fans of any non-persistent online game. Which are not exactly that uncommon.
Wow ..... and I do not mean the game. You nailed it.
Objectives, Rewards, Penalties.
Actually its not a crappy example its actually one that hits to the core of the problem as in its all about personall taste.
"Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god."
-- Jean Rostand
IT does not have to be PVP then, CVC is true to RPG mechanics.
Much higher characters beating low level characters without breaking sweat is as it should be. A level40 should beat a level 25 without breaking sweat. This genre is all about character progression, and the prospect of having all player-skill-based PvP goes against everything that is inherent to RPGs. The merit you, as player, show, has to be investment in your character's progression... And the strength you should take pride in is your character's strength, not yours.
It seems to be that the genre is in danger of being infested with players who have no fondness for the basics of RPG. They ask that the genre be bent out of shape to play more like a FPS or maybe an RTS, but that would basically mean doing way with the genre. A new breed of MMOFPS or other sorts of MMO action games with some RPG elements thrown in seems to be in the horizon; I think they would be much more suitable for these players.
RPG = Role Playing Game. You can role play as a character and still kick ass. We have dice rolls in games due to Pen and Paper days and never evolved much from that. only way to play PnP was using dice using the books I have
not saying we 'must' go FPS but I do like to see player skill get blended in. hell you could have zero skill progression and still be a RPG. you can just focus on amassing wealth and progressing linearly
what do you do at max level in an MMORPG? In city of heroes I role played I didnt gain any xp. I jsut wanted to have fun with my character.
Guild Wars is pretty much the closest I've seen. Starport is close to whereas newbie can own veteran. now thats 'true' player skill being accounted for.
not saying people dont use 'skill' in other MMOs but usually its more of a tactical nature. I could write a long book just how a little thing like Classes make PVP so predictable and cookie cutter. Like Mage sees Warrior, mage roots warrior. Warrior gets owned without getting a swing in (of course you can argue thats a 1-on-1 but how bout in huge PVP battles where most Warriors are still useless?)
No objectives? WoW PvP has tons of objecitves. I assume you've done Alterac Valley, the epitome of objective based PvP. Ah, but battlegrounds don't count? OK, WoW's non-existent world PvP then:
World PvP:
That's just the start. What about Gurubashi arena in STV? What about taking over an area in any part of the world and preventing the other side from going there, or conversely going to liberate an area for your friends to play in? What about taking a whole group of players on by yourself taking them by surprise when they're engaged with a mob?
WoW has all 3 of these somewhat arbitrary 'requirements' for PvP and I haven't even gone into great detail.
As for penalties. There is only one true penalty in PvP in MMOs. And that's time. All that you've lost can be regained with time. So when you earn 3 times fewer points for spending time in AV, you've been penalized for losing with time. Because now it will take you longer to than if you won to get the rewards you are after.
Also hasn't anyone even tried the WoW arenas yet? That's a very pure form of PvP.
The amount of PvP options, the different kinds, from duelling, to huge 40 vs 40 battles, resource control, capture the flag, arena style.. it just blows my mind when people say WoW has no PvP. I've tried the PvP in other games and it's bland, it aint really much fun, and a lot of time it's just opportunistic - you only fight when the risk of losing something is very low.
I am not saying that WoW's PvP is perfect. I'd like to see FFA PvP outside the few places you can atm, and being able to steal items off other players might be interesting too. But these things wouldn't dramatically change the game - if anything they would discourage fighting and people would avoid combat instead just going for it. I think a lot of people don't understand WoW's PvP options, or haven't tried them properly, or don't know anything at all about it (read the PvP section on the WoW website if this is the case).
The way other games handle PvP isn't perfect either.
Play what you like, but WoW PvP is nowhere near as shallow as people say. The depth they cling to in other games isn't quite as deep as they would like to believe, or it comes with heavy costs: Territory control in eve: Tedious gate camping, for example.
MMORPG.com is full of miserable folk who hate most of the games here anyway, especially WoW, so most of what I said will be ignored, or considered a 'joke'. Yet that's just the equivalent of saying "WoW smells!", not tot be taken seriously.
Oh by the way, people who believe in "true PvP" are a joke. Like those who believe in "true metal".
Good hunting.
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
I enjoyed WoW pvp back in the day before the Battlegrounds I did. but the instant they made world pvp unfruitful with granting honor points for being AFK in BGs was the dasy I finally packed my bags, gave my good RL buddies the middle finger, and bounced (okay not the day BGs came out by soon afterwards).
was a joke our #1 PVPer was simply a guy that literally AFK'ed in BGs all day ppl had screenshots!
what point is it to takeover taurren mill and experience the success of denying your enemy a precious resource? You can't the guards will respawn and your enemy will jsut keep respawning and eventually they get reinforcements and zerg the hell outta ya *with* the guards
without the morale hits from a death penalty your enemy will jsut keep respawning and the zerging will never end til everyone falls asleep. no end, no impact.
then 40 vs 40 instanced combat. man I can do that for *free* in an FPS and get character progression to boot
edit- you know what happened other day in EVE? we got attacked in our own space by an enemy guild. We killed them and they were like "gf bro". you know why it would take them 1+ hour to get back to our space + they lost resources. this could never happen in WoW
The honor system has been tweaked quite a bit and you'll find that people who are AFK will be booted out of the instance after a few minutes. A lot of TBC zones have PvP objectives and the Arena system has no room for slackers whatsoever. You can also gain rewards entirely via PvP.
And taking over tarren mill is a kind of silly thing to do. There are much better areas to control, like places away from guards for example
Your EVE example, won't happen in WoW no. But then, all games are different. EVE PvP has flaws too... gate gamping? Oh jesus, give me a battleground over that any day!
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
Taking towers in plaguelands is all fine and good for you and the people in the zone. But what does that do for the level 1 priest in Goldshire?
Having the horde/alliance take the towers makes virtually no impact on a large number of the other players in the game. I'd like to think of it as lacking follow through because when the towers go the game continues as if nothing ever happened. Most of the time when I used to play WoW nobody wanted to bother with any of those towers when asked.
The greatest pvp system I've been fortunate to participate in is, was and will be for a long time that of Dark Age of Camelot. The keeps and towers out in the pvp area affected the rest of the game. When you went out and took towers the rest of your realm would gain bonuses such as more gold dropping from mobs you kill, or if enough towers were taken a dungeon would open up with better rewards and a better place for leveling. Taking keeps would further increase the bonuses gained by giving you +% damage and so on.
Alterac Valley as fun as it was the first 3 or 4 times lost it's meaning to me. The battle grounds of DAoC were much more interesting if you ask me. They all had a Keep in the center of it. You can siege it, blow holes in it's wall, take it from one of the 2 other realms who occupied it and claim it for almost 1 full level of exp, and it would remain yours until one of the 2 other realms went up in arms to capture it from you. The BG would not reset itself after a certain amount of time, it would persist. And when it came down to Realm Points (wow's honor equivalent) you would either get some or not. Not the in between where you would get a lesser amount even if you fail to accomplish what you started. I think this made you want to work harder and be better at whatever it is you were trying to achieve.
And when you bring in the arena that WoW had instituted it again only affected you, and only you. You may have won 10 times and only lost 2 but that means absolutely nothing to any of the other people out there. If it's supposed to be a Massive Multiplayer online community I'd would at least hope that my actions somehow bettered the game experience for my allies, and made my enemies want to become better at the game so that they can provide a more stimulating and thrilling fight.
No required quests! And if I decide I want to be an assassin-cartographer-dancer-pastry chef who lives only to stalk and kill interior decorators, then that's who I want to be, even if it takes me four years to max all the skills and everyone else thinks I'm freaking nuts. -Madimorga-
Go watch 300 and see how that small army defended their land. Bottlenecks. real warfare
now maybe noobs get ganked going to 0.0 but big deal they should join an Allaince, insure their craft, and help camp the gates and protect their space
Well how does controlling deep 0.0 space affect the newbie that just did the tutorial? The analogy you gave isn't really relevant.
And your actions in a battleground do affect things. If you win, the enemy has lost 2 marks. They've spent the same amount of time as you to get 33% of the rewards. With the rewards, you buy gear, making you stronger, allowing you to contribute a little more to the fight.
The World PvP areas give buffs, and there are PvP quests that require that you do the objectives. If you have complete control, you deny the other side from completing the quests.
It's not territorial control as per EVE. But they're objectives nonetheless.
Just so we're clear, I think EVE has an overall better philosophy than WoW when it comes to PvP. But it offers a different experience, that doesn't make WoW PvP suck, it can be very enjoyable. When you think about it, these are all just games, and nothing has any real meaning anyway. WoW PvP is more about the moment, EVE PvP is about the long term consequences.
I play both, I see the strengths and weaknesses in both. WoW is just hated cos it's so damn popular.
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
yeah but who gives a care about some noob doing the tutorial? I'm protecting space for the newbies in "my" space. protecting my assets. I dont care about some random noob out there in safe space. now maybe if that noob is in my corp and he gets ganked thats different but just some guy out doing the tutorials? he can join my cause and fight or just stay outta my way (when I'm in 0.0)
I've watched 300. I wouldn't call it 'real' warfare, since the events have been dramatized in literature before they even reached Hollywood, but still, I see your point.
But gate gaming IS tedious, even though there is some strategic purpose to it. You can go for hours, even days without seeing any action, controlling your little section of space.
Not saying EVE's PvP is bad, just that it's not without flaws.
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
yeah but who gives a care about some noob doing the tutorial? I'm protecting space for the newbies in "my" space. protecting my assets. I dont care about some random noob out there in safe space. now maybe if that noob is in my corp and he gets ganked thats different but just some guy out doing the tutorials? he can join my cause and fight or just stay outta my way (when I'm in 0.0)
I was referring to the guy who asked "how does fighting in a battleground affect a level 1 priest".
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
Alright I got alot of replys here, I appreciate that..im not so much looking for a new MMO, I already know what I want to play, I was looking for the features in the games the older mmo gamers are always referring to when judging a game, im not saying its right, but I was just a bit curious as to what the big difference that made it more fun, and you guys are pretty much right, WoW is nothing but a reward, everyone is effected, and there are penaltys... to the one guy who was talking about PvP in WoW, those world PvP objective are a joke, noone does them, and I was playing about two weeks ago and people still afk and macro spam in AV, arenas are only a grind for gear, and for me they just got old once i did them for about two weeks, don't get me wrong I think WoW's PvP is fine, but that might just be because im a moron to mmos besides only a small portion.
Oh and while I am at it, is there any games you guys reccomend while I wait for WAR, im not really into paying, I really would just like to try a trial, do they have those for games like dark age of camelot, eve online, ultima online or any other classic pvp games
Again thanks for the help with giving me some info on the history of mmos, i've just been so clueless to what the diff was, because the games seem to play similarly.
Though we have heard of stupid haste in war, cleverness has never been seen associated with long delays.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
Oh rubbish. Azeroth PvP objectives might not be used as much as they used to be, but Outland PvP objectives are contested all the time. It's a constant battle.
You call WoW PvP a joke yet you have admitted you don't know what other MMOs offer that WoW doesn't. And you also admitted you've had fun for 2 years. So now you're contradicting yourself by saying you had fun in 'joke PVP'.
Pfft. Burn-out case right here.
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
EvE has a free trial, just go to their site. Dark Age of Camelot also has a trial but they still ask you for a credit card # even though they don't bill you which I find deflates the population all that much more and limits a bit of the accessibility. I believe Ultima Online is free to play but I could be wrong.
In the end you've picked the best way to find out by just trying the games themselves. There is no substitute for personal experience. I could tell you numerous advantages/disadvantages of any given game but those are personal views and opinions and are biased no matter if the person telling you says they are not.
@ Recant
I had a whole lot more fun in the days of open world pvp in wow. Even though there were no rewards for say killing all the inhabitants of Terran Mill it still made you feel like you did something. And as soon as others of the opposite faction found out that there was action brewing in Terran Mill they would get on their mains, or whatever character they had that was able to do something in that situation and come and fight.
To me, the BGs in wow seemed somewhat underwhelming. The whole CTF just didn't fit into the lore or the style of game IMO. I just can't for the life of me picture elves or gnomes or even orcs giving a damn about a flag no matter what it is supposed to symbolize. It just does not fit the genre IMO.
No required quests! And if I decide I want to be an assassin-cartographer-dancer-pastry chef who lives only to stalk and kill interior decorators, then that's who I want to be, even if it takes me four years to max all the skills and everyone else thinks I'm freaking nuts. -Madimorga-
man the WoW objectives you just said the flaw- "constant battle". that just shouldnt be. It should be more like, "We have taken control of this area you can either fight or gtfo". you kill your enemy they need to take some sort of punishment. Really i dont like grind and if you know of some other way to achieve true impact I'll listen. but death penalty is the best way to hit it.
its okay for FPS games to not have a penalty- the whole darn thing ends and it shows the rankings when its over.
In MMORPG we need 'victory'. I cannot have victory if my enemies are immortal GODS that cant be killed.
my friends loved to just ride around, gank, and spit on the opposite faction. I was like why what did this little night elf lowbie do to me lol. I want to take control and get gear and money. Like at least takeover Taurren Mill and rob the freakin NPCs lol
I did have fun in WoW pvp for two years, and it wasn't because I hardcore PvPd, its because i had about 15 characters because I couldnt stick to one, I think that if I hardcore pvpd i would have stopped playing earlier.
Please realize that I am in NO way saying WoW is a bad game, I am just trying to find out why other people think it is lacking compared to the older games. I found that answer, and I really would appreciate if it goes no further then my post.
Though we have heard of stupid haste in war, cleverness has never been seen associated with long delays.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War