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U.S. Constitution 1787 - 2007 RIP
Coldmeat
Member UncommonPosts: 3,409
http://www.opednews.com/articles/genera_joe_park_070825_government_training_.htm
Well, 220 years is a damn good run.
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so what does this mean xD i couldnt understand even by reading it.
Amazing to see what kind of people that are supposed to be given rights by the constitution. One almost applauds its passing.
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US Navy Chaplain Corps
On Nov. 28, 1775, the Congress established regulations to govern the new Continental Navy. Article II directed captains to provide for religious services aboard their ships. Interestingly enough, Article III enacted punishments for blaspheming the name of God as well as punishments for drunkenness. This date is regarded as the birth date of the Navy Chaplain Corps.
Clergy have been used by the government since before there was even a constitution.
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sorry I am not for bias stories or comentary. this is why I don't read the news. I read what you wrote on that but I looked a litle around and they just look a little bias. I read what facts are coming out. i also take most new media's explanations with a grain of salt. thats all I have to add.
Actual KSLA story
I think if you actually read the KSLA-TV story, it's a far cry from the big deal the Opednews.com "reporter" makes it out to be. Amazingly enough, neither of these articles are cited or corroborated so I know I certainly trust everything they say.
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Life sucks, buy a helmet.
US Military Chaplains provided a lot of those services. I volunteered to go to help support the event while I was stationed in Keflavik Iceland, but the Navy didn't need to ship me there.
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The OP and the first article really tries to spin the service that was provided by those clergy. They take a quote from a Christian clergyman and make it sound like the service is some religious right take conspiracy with the Government. When in fact the service was already provided after Katrina and there were Chaplains from dozens of faith groups sent to the area. Including Jewish Rabbis, Muslim Imams, Catholic Priests, and Protestant Ministers.
This isn't some huge conspiracy item. It is just a fact of life that the best trained counselors and support team happen to be Chaplains, since they are trained to deal with combat like situations. It wouldn't of done any good to send in a bunch of social workers or other mental health professionals to try and counsel these individuals.
So stop trying to perpetuate some type of conspiracy theory!
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I have read the original story. And I watched the original newscast, which is actually a bit longer, and more indepth than the written piece was, thanks.
At what point do you people stop, and tell the government that enough is enough? Do you really believe that stripping away your rights one at a time is a good thing?
I have read the original story. And I watched the original newscast, which is actually a bit longer, and more indepth than the written piece was, thanks.
At what point do you people stop, and tell the government that enough is enough? Do you really believe that stripping away your rights one at a time is a good thing?
What would you like them to do during a time of crisis? Let the people loot what was left after Katrina? Let them roam the streets murdering and stealing from other people?I mean come on. Get off your high horse about "supposed" personal freedoms and really ask yourself. What would you do for your house in a time of extreme crisis. Would you gather your wife and children around and have a vote on what the best course of action is, or would you attempt to do what you need to save them?
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These aren't Chaplains. They're local ministers. And pray tell, how are they somehow superior to a trained mental health professional? Unless you're gonna claim that the power of Jeeeeesus can magically make everything ok for these people?
However, I realize that insignificant details just get in the way of zealotry, so carry on, Christian Soldier.
These aren't Chaplains. They're local ministers. And pray tell, how are they somehow superior to a trained mental health professional? Unless you're gonna claim that the power of Jeeeeesus can magically make everything ok for these people?
However, I realize that insignificant details just get in the way of zealotry, so carry on, Christian Soldier.
Every Chaplain has a Masters degree. Every chaplain has advanced training between 3-5 years minimum in counseling people. I have only worked with one Chaplain who didn't also have a masters degree in counseling psychology. And yes they are Chaplains not local ministers. I think I would know considering I actually know some of the people who went and supported Katrina. One of the Chaplains I work with not only had his degree in counseling psychology, but was state licensed.Also no trained mental health professionals go through the trauma and combat training like a Chaplain does. Chaplains and RPs (which I am an RP in the US Navy) attend a combat training school with the US Marine Corps.
I am sorry that my facts get in the way of your conspiracy theories.
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I have read the original story. And I watched the original newscast, which is actually a bit longer, and more indepth than the written piece was, thanks.
At what point do you people stop, and tell the government that enough is enough? Do you really believe that stripping away your rights one at a time is a good thing?
What would you like them to do during a time of crisis? Let the people loot what was left after Katrina? Let them roam the streets murdering and stealing from other people?
I mean come on. Get off your high horse about "supposed" personal freedoms and really ask yourself. What would you do for your house in a time of extreme crisis. Would you gather your wife and children around and have a vote on what the best course of action is, or would you attempt to do what you need to save them?
Simple. Anyone coming on my property gets shot. Couple corpses strung up makes for a mighty impressive No Trespassing sign.
I think the problem here is that you are under the misguided assumption that I care about anyone other than myself.
These aren't Chaplains. They're local ministers. And pray tell, how are they somehow superior to a trained mental health professional? Unless you're gonna claim that the power of Jeeeeesus can magically make everything ok for these people?
However, I realize that insignificant details just get in the way of zealotry, so carry on, Christian Soldier.
Every Chaplain has a Masters degree. Every chaplain has advanced training between 3-5 years minimum in counseling people. I have only worked with one Chaplain who didn't also have a masters degree in counseling psychology. And yes they are Chaplains not local ministers. I think I would know considering I actually know some of the people who went and supported Katrina. One of the Chaplains I work with not only had his degree in counseling psychology, but was state licensed.
Also no trained mental health professionals go through the trauma and combat training like a Chaplain does. Chaplains and RPs (which I am an RP in the US Navy) attend a combat training school with the US Marine Corps.
I am sorry that my facts get in the way of your conspiracy theories.
Again, not Chaplains. Local. Ministers. Whose job is to pacify the populace, and to quell dissent.
These aren't Chaplains. They're local ministers. And pray tell, how are they somehow superior to a trained mental health professional? Unless you're gonna claim that the power of Jeeeeesus can magically make everything ok for these people?
However, I realize that insignificant details just get in the way of zealotry, so carry on, Christian Soldier.
Every Chaplain has a Masters degree. Every chaplain has advanced training between 3-5 years minimum in counseling people. I have only worked with one Chaplain who didn't also have a masters degree in counseling psychology. And yes they are Chaplains not local ministers. I think I would know considering I actually know some of the people who went and supported Katrina. One of the Chaplains I work with not only had his degree in counseling psychology, but was state licensed.Also no trained mental health professionals go through the trauma and combat training like a Chaplain does. Chaplains and RPs (which I am an RP in the US Navy) attend a combat training school with the US Marine Corps.
I am sorry that my facts get in the way of your conspiracy theories.
There is a difference between civilian and military culture and law. Training these priests in this manner is a serious conflict of interests. If the government were training secular specialists it would be a different matter entirely. By coopting religious leaders, what they are doing appears more akin to thought control.
Now, I know that sounds paranoid, but this is a heavy-handed and uneccessary mistake. These priests are not to function as government employees, they are to function as priests. Priests can and do work for the government, but in that capacity their role as government employee comes first, and often the priest aspect never sees the light of day. Take charities, for instance. If a charity gets federal money, even if it functions from a church using priests and nuns, it has certain rules about what it's allowed to do in its capacity as a charity.
Do you not see the terrible conflict of interest here? Not only is a priest sacrificing the integrity of their position by working directly for the government, the government sacrifices its integrity by taking on religious figures directly as emissaries.
These aren't Chaplains. They're local ministers. And pray tell, how are they somehow superior to a trained mental health professional? Unless you're gonna claim that the power of Jeeeeesus can magically make everything ok for these people?
However, I realize that insignificant details just get in the way of zealotry, so carry on, Christian Soldier.
Every Chaplain has a Masters degree. Every chaplain has advanced training between 3-5 years minimum in counseling people. I have only worked with one Chaplain who didn't also have a masters degree in counseling psychology. And yes they are Chaplains not local ministers. I think I would know considering I actually know some of the people who went and supported Katrina. One of the Chaplains I work with not only had his degree in counseling psychology, but was state licensed.Also no trained mental health professionals go through the trauma and combat training like a Chaplain does. Chaplains and RPs (which I am an RP in the US Navy) attend a combat training school with the US Marine Corps.
I am sorry that my facts get in the way of your conspiracy theories.
Chaplains have been working for the government longer then the Government has been around!There is a difference between civilian and military culture and law. Training these priests in this manner is a serious conflict of interests. If the government were training secular specialists it would be a different matter entirely. By coopting religious leaders, what they are doing appears more akin to thought control.
Now, I know that sounds paranoid, but this is a heavy-handed and uneccessary mistake. These priests are not to function as government employees, they are to function as priests. Priests can and do work for the government, but in that capacity their role as government employee comes first, and often the priest aspect never sees the light of day. Take charities, for instance. If a charity gets federal money, even if it functions from a church using priests and nuns, it has certain rules about what it's allowed to do in its capacity as a charity.
Do you not see the terrible conflict of interest here? Not only is a priest sacrificing the integrity of their position by working directly for the government, the government sacrifices its integrity by taking on religious figures directly as emissaries.
Secondly each Chaplain serves at the whim of their particular church or religious background. They can pull them back from Military service if the Chaplain is doing something against the religious beliefs of their particular religion.
No it is not a terrible conflict of interest. They serve a specific service to the Military members they work with. They come from all manner of religious backgrounds. They are specifically here to protect everyone's right to religious freedoms, to practice or not practice what ever they choose. They also are here to provide much needed counseling to families and service members.
Maybe you guys should actually get an idea of what you are talking about before spouting off on the board.
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These are not Chaplains, Cabe! They are ordinary priests and ministers, who are not in the military, who do not receive a government paycheck, who have taken no oaths of service to the United States government. They are civilians. That is a huge difference. Civilian does not equal military law, military rule. Do these clergy need to tell their flocks that they are following the instructions of the government should they begin acting on their training? What if the government tells them that they must identify troublemakers for police forces to arrest, or people who simply express their distrust of the government in confidence? Chaplains have a structure in place, rules to follow, which are supposed to prevent this kind of conflict of interest. A chaplain is not the same as a civilian priest.
Hmmm... I can't read the article for some reason, but from what I read in this tread so far I have to ask. Is the military recruting these chaplins to perform religious services or are they just soldiers that just so happens to be of the priestly type.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
Civilian clergy has the same structures in place. They have what is known as the priest-penitent privilege that protects them from just this such type of attempts to force the clergy to tell something that was told in confidence.
The article is a biased piece of anti government that doesn't have any facts right. The government makes use of the Military to take care of these situations.
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Civilian clergy has the same structures in place. They have what is known as the priest-penitent privilege that protects them from just this such type of attempts to force the clergy to tell something that was told in confidence.
The article is a biased piece of anti government that doesn't have any facts right. The government makes use of the Military to take care of these situations.
Do not speak to me presuming I know nothing of this subject, Cabe.
Clergy do not live day to day attempting to balance their duty to nation with their duty to God. Taking clergy who are unprepared for such an obligation and training them to serve the government is a conflict of interest. I'd like to think they place their duty to God first, but I doubt that would happen. These clergy will have no badge of office, no identifier, that they are servants of the government as well as their church. If they were all required to wear bright orange badges on their robes/suits/uniforms proclaiming that they act at the behest of the government as well as God, I would have no problem with any of this.
Civilian clergy has the same structures in place. They have what is known as the priest-penitent privilege that protects them from just this such type of attempts to force the clergy to tell something that was told in confidence.
The article is a biased piece of anti government that doesn't have any facts right. The government makes use of the Military to take care of these situations.
Do not speak to me presuming I know nothing of this subject, Cabe.
Clergy do not live day to day attempting to balance their duty to nation with their duty to God. Taking clergy who are unprepared for such an obligation and training them to serve the government is a conflict of interest. I'd like to think they place their duty to God first, but I doubt that would happen. These clergy will have no badge of office, no identifier, that they are servants of the government as well as their church. If they were all required to wear bright orange badges on their robes/suits/uniforms proclaiming that they act at the behest of the government as well as God, I would have no problem with any of this.
Actually they did in New Orleans. THey had on very nice Military Uniforms with Military Ranks of office such as LT or CDR. That very clearly identified them as not only religious people but also Military officers.
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And yet, again, THESE ARE NOT CHAPLAINS. These are civilian clergy. They would be under no requirement to wear any identifiers. They would not even be required to tell people what they're up to. Everyone who would normally follow their advice due to their office, would follow the government's wishes through them. Your examples of Chaplains are not valid. These are not Chaplains, they have nothing to do with the government, nothing to do with the military.
Any time there is an emergency the Government makes use of its military resources before outsourcing to civilians. It is more cost effective this way. Plus if something happens to the Chaplain in a situation like this there is no chance that the Government will get sued. Even if the Chaplain is placed in a hostile environment where it is likely that he will get killed.
Look at the incident with the Bridge that collapsed. They sent in Navy divers to look for the bodies, the government didn't pay salvage divers to go in there and do it.
So I will stand by my statement that it will be Chaplains that are used by the Federal Government in these cases and those Chaplains will be identified very clearly.
But once again, please don't let my facts and logical ideas get in the way of your conspiracy!
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Eh, you're wasting your time, it won't register. He'll just bring up Military Chaplains, and Katrina(because Katrina is a stellar example of Gov't response to a disaster...)again, and tell you you're an anti-gov't hippy liberal conspiracy theorist, or somesuch.
I wonder what he'll do when he gets his orders to open fire on US Citizens... erm dissenters... erm terrorist sympathizers. Yeah, that's it, terrorist sympathizers. Because all he knows is to do whatever his superiors tell him to do, and not to ask questions. Because the Government never does wrong. We're the shining knights on white horses, here to save The World with a Bible in one hand, and an M16 in the other. Didn't you know?
And I am not anti-Government, for the record. I'm anti-Bush Administration/Neocon power grab that puts Nixon to shame. I'd just as soon not live in a Theocratic police state, thanks.
If they use clearly identified Chaplains that is fine, but this is clearly not the case. What they are doing, is asking a member of the clergy *WHILE ACTING AS A PRIEST* to secretly serve government interests.
Eh, you're wasting your time, it won't register. He'll just bring up Military Chaplains, and Katrina(because Katrina is a stellar example of Gov't response to a disaster...)again, and tell you you're an anti-gov't hippy liberal conspiracy theorist, or somesuch.
I wonder what he'll do when he gets his orders to open fire on US Citizens... erm dissenters... erm terrorist sympathizers. Yeah, that's it, terrorist sympathizers. Because all he knows is to do whatever his superiors tell him to do, and not to ask questions. Because the Government never does wrong. We're the shining knights on white horses, here to save The World with a Bible in one hand, and an M16 in the other. Didn't you know?
And I am not anti-Government, for the record. I'm anti-Bush Administration/Neocon power grab that puts Nixon to shame. I'd just as soon not live in a Theocratic police state, thanks.
Umm what I am not is a conspiracy nut like you two are.I can clearly come up with thoughts on my own based on how the Government has responded in the past and also based on the funding nightmare that using civilians provides when there is a cheaper alternative available.
This has nothing to do with Neocons or Bush, since Chaplains have been serving in this capacity since before there was a US nation. At least in the US Navy.
Chaplains help found the Naval Academy.
Chaplains founded Fleet and family service centers in the seventies when it was seen that more service members were going to have families after the change to an all volunteer service.
Chaplains have always been there to help the Service members, families and local communities.
You are obviously very anti christian because you keep spouting off about the Bible. That has nothing to do with this. Several of the Chaplains that I know that were sent to New Orleans were not Christians. One was an Imam and another two were Jewish. The US Navy has Chaplains representing hundreds of different religious views that make up the US.
So take your anti-christian garbage elsewhere because you are barking up the wrong tree.
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