Once again, this has absolutely nothing to do with Chaplains. These are civilian clergy being given government training to assist government control during martial law.
I'm trying to remain polite with you, Cabe. If you call me a conspiracy nut one more time, I will not remain so any longer. I have not resorted to any personal attacks against you thus far, but you keep taking shots at me. It had better stop if you want this to remain civil.
Since we had this whole "Homeland security upgrade" we lost most of our rights anyhow.
All it takes is for some asshat in a office to go "Hey he looks like a terrorist/or has terrorist like ways" to kill your rights.
I'm not so much mad at the chumps who tossed planes into the buildings for doing what they did, as how they destroyed our freedoms (what little we really did have).
That makes mad, yet there is nothing to do about it anymore, we've lost democracy and have come into a new kind of dictatorship with a republic spin.
I miss the old republic, atleast then you killed indians or anything that was different. Now you can't even kill a squirel without a hunting license.
What you guys are not understanding is that you are basing your "facts" on some garbage article that is extremely biased. While I am basing my facts on what the Government has done in the past. They did declare martial law in New Orleans. They did you the Military to police the city. They did take away weapons from the people of the city.
And guess what....
They did you Military Chaplains to provide counseling services down there. They did not enlist a bunch of civilian clergy to do so.
So I am sorry, you can continue to believe some editorial with no basis in facts at all. Or you can actually look at what the government has done in the past while declaring Martial Law. See it is pretty easy to understand what they are going to do since they have done it before.
I am sorry if I offended you Sawtooth, my comments were mainly directed at the OP. As you can see in his post a few up he is extremely anti Religion and was using this as an attack on something he doesn't have any knowledge about or even understand.
So once again I will repeat the Government did declare Martial Law during Katrina. They did take away all of the freedoms you are so worried about. And they did use Military Chaplains to provide counseling services.
Oh and guess what...
When the crisis was over they returned all of the freedoms.
Also I didn't notice this last night because I was tired:
"Dr. Durell Tuberville serves as chaplain for the Shreveport Fire Department and the Caddo Sheriff's Office."
The guy mentioned in the Article is not a Civilian Clergyman. He is a Chaplain for the Local Government. So even the very guy talking in the article isn't a Civilian Clergyman.
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I think if you actually read the KSLA-TV story, it's a far cry from the big deal the Opednews.com "reporter" makes it out to be. Amazingly enough, neither of these articles are cited or corroborated so I know I certainly trust everything they say.
I have read the original story. And I watched the original newscast, which is actually a bit longer, and more indepth than the written piece was, thanks.
At what point do you people stop, and tell the government that enough is enough? Do you really believe that stripping away your rights one at a time is a good thing?
Read entire thread, find it interesting to base an isolated occurrence in New Orleans to clarify the State of the Union as a whole.
The city of New Orleans demanded the Govt stay Out initially after Katrina. Then, realized, in short order, they did indeed need help and proceeded to blame the Govt for not reacting sooner...
There Will always be diverse opinions against ANY Govt.
Once again, this has absolutely nothing to do with Chaplains. These are civilian clergy being given government training to assist government control during martial law.
I'm trying to remain polite with you, Cabe. If you call me a conspiracy nut one more time, I will not remain so any longer. I have not resorted to any personal attacks against you thus far, but you keep taking shots at me. It had better stop if you want this to remain civil.
Sawtooth, you don't have to be polite to him...you don't have to respond to him at all; just click the block button. You can't get through to some of these primates, so why bother?
The US will be under martial law within a year...it will hold for a very short time, but ultimately it will fail. (Those incompetent jackasses couldn't even get control of one city - New Orleans - let alone every city in the US!!!) Millions will die in the ensuing chaos; food riots, revenge killings, rapes, and ethnic cleansing will rip through this country like wild fire.
The rich and powerful will flee to other countries or retreat into heavily fortified compounds...leaving the rest of us to our own devices; no laws, no rules, just do what you will. A few million sheeple (the lucky ones?) will be relocated to work camps where they will make bullets and bombs and clothing for "our" troops fighting WW III.
I think if you actually read the KSLA-TV story, it's a far cry from the big deal the Opednews.com "reporter" makes it out to be. Amazingly enough, neither of these articles are cited or corroborated so I know I certainly trust everything they say.
I have read the original story. And I watched the original newscast, which is actually a bit longer, and more indepth than the written piece was, thanks.
At what point do you people stop, and tell the government that enough is enough? Do you really believe that stripping away your rights one at a time is a good thing?
Read entire thread, find it interesting to base an isolated occurrence in New Orleans to clarify the State of the Union as a whole.
The city of New Orleans demanded the Govt stay Out initially after Katrina. Then, realized, in short order, they did indeed need help and proceeded to blame the Govt for not reacting sooner...
There Will always be diverse opinions against ANY Govt.
I am not using it to clarify the State of the Union. I am using it as pretty much the only example of the Government Declaring Martial Law and using Clergy to help with this function.
People seem to think that the government has some nefarious plans, when in fact when an emergency is declared the only feasable thing for the majority of people's safety is to declare martial law and fix the problem.
Some people in this very thread seem to think there is some type of conspiracy between the Neocons and the Religious right to declare Martial Law and then turn this country into some type of theocracy.
I can't believe that some people actually believe that crock of bull. The religious right can't even agree on what their plans are. Much less the Neocons either. Yet somehow they are going to pull off a coup throughout the 50 states to take control of this country. When each state has national Guard and militia that are pretty much just as well armed as the US Military who will be under the control of each individual Governor. And last time I check there aren't 50 Neocon Governors.
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Once again, this has absolutely nothing to do with Chaplains. These are civilian clergy being given government training to assist government control during martial law.
I'm trying to remain polite with you, Cabe. If you call me a conspiracy nut one more time, I will not remain so any longer. I have not resorted to any personal attacks against you thus far, but you keep taking shots at me. It had better stop if you want this to remain civil.
Sawtooth, you don't have to be polite to him...you don't have to respond to him at all; just click the block button. You can't get through to some of these primates, so why bother?
The US will be under martial law within a year...it will hold for a very short time, but ultimately it will fail. (Those incompetent jackasses couldn't even get control of one city - New Orleans - let alone every city in the US!!!) Millions will die in the ensuing chaos; food riots, revenge killings, rapes, and ethnic cleansing will rip through this country like wild fire.
The rich and powerful will flee to other countries or retreat into heavily fortified compounds...leaving the rest of us to our own devices; no laws, no rules, just do what you will. A few million sheeple (the lucky ones?) will be relocated to work camps where they will make bullets and bombs and clothing for "our" troops fighting WW III.
I think if you actually read the KSLA-TV story, it's a far cry from the big deal the Opednews.com "reporter" makes it out to be. Amazingly enough, neither of these articles are cited or corroborated so I know I certainly trust everything they say.
I have read the original story. And I watched the original newscast, which is actually a bit longer, and more indepth than the written piece was, thanks.
At what point do you people stop, and tell the government that enough is enough? Do you really believe that stripping away your rights one at a time is a good thing?
Read entire thread, find it interesting to base an isolated occurrence in New Orleans to clarify the State of the Union as a whole.
The city of New Orleans demanded the Govt stay Out initially after Katrina. Then, realized, in short order, they did indeed need help and proceeded to blame the Govt for not reacting sooner...
There Will always be diverse opinions against ANY Govt.
I am not using it to clarify the State of the Union. I am using it as pretty much the only example of the Government Declaring Martial Law and using Clergy to help with this function.
People seem to think that the government has some nefarious plans, when in fact when an emergency is declared the only feasable thing for the majority of people's safety is to declare martial law and fix the problem.
Some people in this very thread seem to think there is some type of conspiracy between the Neocons and the Religious right to declare Martial Law and then turn this country into some type of theocracy.
I can't believe that some people actually believe that crock of bull. The religious right can't even agree on what their plans are. Much less the Neocons either. Yet somehow they are going to pull off a coup throughout the 50 states to take control of this country. When each state has national Guard and militia that are pretty much just as well armed as the US Military who will be under the control of each individual Governor. And last time I check there aren't 50 Neocon Governors.
I don't think they are using religious figures to start a theocracy and I don't think any one ever said that. If this truly is happening they are getting trained to calm us down and submit. Btw, martial law was never called in new orleans, It was a state of emergency. On top of all this, the national guard will be under the direct command of the president according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.R._5122_(2006)
I think if you actually read the KSLA-TV story, it's a far cry from the big deal the Opednews.com "reporter" makes it out to be. Amazingly enough, neither of these articles are cited or corroborated so I know I certainly trust everything they say.
I have read the original story. And I watched the original newscast, which is actually a bit longer, and more indepth than the written piece was, thanks.
At what point do you people stop, and tell the government that enough is enough? Do you really believe that stripping away your rights one at a time is a good thing?
Read entire thread, find it interesting to base an isolated occurrence in New Orleans to clarify the State of the Union as a whole.
The city of New Orleans demanded the Govt stay Out initially after Katrina. Then, realized, in short order, they did indeed need help and proceeded to blame the Govt for not reacting sooner...
There Will always be diverse opinions against ANY Govt.
I am not using it to clarify the State of the Union. I am using it as pretty much the only example of the Government Declaring Martial Law and using Clergy to help with this function.
People seem to think that the government has some nefarious plans, when in fact when an emergency is declared the only feasable thing for the majority of people's safety is to declare martial law and fix the problem.
Some people in this very thread seem to think there is some type of conspiracy between the Neocons and the Religious right to declare Martial Law and then turn this country into some type of theocracy.
I can't believe that some people actually believe that crock of bull. The religious right can't even agree on what their plans are. Much less the Neocons either. Yet somehow they are going to pull off a coup throughout the 50 states to take control of this country. When each state has national Guard and militia that are pretty much just as well armed as the US Military who will be under the control of each individual Governor. And last time I check there aren't 50 Neocon Governors.
I don't think they are using religious figures to start a theocracy and I don't think any one ever said that. If this truly is happening they are getting trained to calm us down and submit. Btw, martial law was never called in new orleans, It was a state of emergency. On top of all this, the national guard will be under the direct command of the president according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.R._5122_(2006)
The military was policing the streets. A curfew was put into place. Individual freedoms were taken away. Yes it was Martial Law. It might not of been called that but it sure was.
Secondly the OP very much is taking this article and situation as some type of Neocon conspiracy.
Thirdly the President can take control all he wants, but if what he is doing is wrong he is going to find it very hard to command the troops. The OP likes to make out that the soldiers are mindless beings who will say how high when the president says jump. But in fact we have very clear rules about questioning unlawful orders. One of those things is preservation of Civilian casualities.
Take the "war" in Iraq (which btw like the new orleans non- martial law incident, is also not really what it is, Since the WAr isn't actually a war since congress never declared war) We could of won by now very easily, but we are taking extreme measures to make sure we perserve civilian life to the best of our ability. Even to the point of placing our troops in greater danger. And people actually expect this type of military to go into a city and open fire on American Civilians? That is laughable.
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Thirdly the President can take control all he wants, but if what he is doing is wrong he is going to find it very hard to command the troops.
Really, mind citing all thousands of examples in your "A Patriots Handbook" where a President or Military Leader found it difficult to command the troops into doing immoral, unethical, or illegal acts?
Originally posted by Cabe2323 The OP likes to make out that the soldiers are mindless beings who will say how high when the president says jump. But in fact we have very clear rules about questioning unlawful orders.
I guess everyone starts out with such an idealistic view on their governmental structure. I used to like "wholesone" Disney movies too.
Originally posted by Cabe2323
One of those things is preservation of Civilian casualities.
I love how your statement is oh so true yet not what you were intending.
Take the "war" in Iraq (which btw like the new orleans non- martial law incident, is also not really what it is, Since the WAr isn't actually a war since congress never declared war) We could of won by now very easily, but we are taking extreme measures to make sure we perserve civilian life to the best of our ability.
So winning means killing a mass portion of the populous, military and civilian alike? Ok, duly noted, you are on the "I don't believe in proportionality" side of the debate.
Originally posted by Cabe2323
Even to the point of placing our troops in greater danger. And people actually expect this type of military to go into a city and open fire on American Civilians? That is laughable.
Oh dear, placing your "volunteer" military troops in danger. I'm sure most civilians in the myriad countries in which the US has instigated or supported war in wish they could voluntarily be placed in the situation which has been forced upon them.
Wow you went way back there to pull that one out. And the piece is very biased. A lot of people (who are not neocons) consider FDR to be one of the worst Presidents in History. He turned this country into a socialist instead of the free democracy that it should be.
Originally posted by Cabe2323
Thirdly the President can take control all he wants, but if what he is doing is wrong he is going to find it very hard to command the troops.
Really, mind citing all thousands of examples in your "A Patriots Handbook" where a President or Military Leader found it difficult to command the troops into doing immoral, unethical, or illegal acts?
I don't need to quote the Patriots Handbook. The UCMJ Clearly states that we are to report any infractions of the UCMJ.
Originally posted by Cabe2323 The OP likes to make out that the soldiers are mindless beings who will say how high when the president says jump. But in fact we have very clear rules about questioning unlawful orders.
I guess everyone starts out with such an idealistic view on their governmental structure. I used to like "wholesone" Disney movies too.
I am the Member of the US Navy. I have a much better Idea about the governmental structure then you do. All you have is internet ideas and silly conspiracies. I have history on my side.
Thousands of US service members had PTSD because of the trama of dealing with Vietnam. They couldn't come to terms with the killing of Civilians who had bombs and weapons on them. Yet you seem to think that all the President needs to do is order the execution of some people protesting and we will do it.
You have no idea how the Military works, nor do you have any real idea how we think.
Originally posted by Cabe2323
One of those things is preservation of Civilian casualities.
I love how your statement is oh so true yet not what you were intending.
I was tired and thinking of the comment in two ways. I actually meant to say the Preservation of Civilian life. Which is a huge priority of the military. There are numerous techniques and equipment that we do not use because it would cause excessive civilian casualities.
Originally posted by Cabe2323
Take the "war" in Iraq (which btw like the new orleans non- martial law incident, is also not really what it is, Since the WAr isn't actually a war since congress never declared war) We could of won by now very easily, but we are taking extreme measures to make sure we perserve civilian life to the best of our ability.
So winning means killing a mass portion of the populous, military and civilian alike? Ok, duly noted, you are on the "I don't believe in proportionality" side of the debate.
No I said that if all we cared about was winning at all costs that is what we would of done. But we care about civilians and not causing casualities. So for some reason the conspiracy theorists think that the same military members who take extreme measures to not kill Iraqi Civilians, would turn around and kill American Civilians with no problems.
Originally posted by Cabe2323
Even to the point of placing our troops in greater danger. And people actually expect this type of military to go into a city and open fire on American Civilians? That is laughable.
Oh dear, placing your "volunteer" military troops in danger. I'm sure most civilians in the myriad countries in which the US has instigated or supported war in wish they could voluntarily be placed in the situation which has been forced upon them.
We have a right to disagree with the actions of our politicians as well. So yes we are being placed in greater danger due to the planning that is being used by the military. But we care about protecting life and are willing to risk our lives in order to protect innocents ever where.
The vast majority of the "Civilians" are actually happy that we helped them. They lived in an extremely oppressed country where the majority was treated horribly by the minority in power.
When Grown Folks are Talking...
Yes please let us get back to talking and when you learn some stuff come back and join the conversation.
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Did you seriously think this weak rebuttal was worthy of the smack I laid down? I'll simply tear you to bits, then go back to watching my tin foil hat specials.
Originally posted by tunabun
Originally posted by Cabe2323
Wow you went way back there to pull that one out.
The age has no relevance, it was a NeoCon conspiracy. As I will point out throughout this response, you seem to chronically rely on fallacious debate.
Originally posted by Cabe2323
And the piece is very biased.
Mind stating how it's biased, you don't generally like to source or cite your comments, you mearly make fallacious statements as to try to shortcut to a deviatory victory.
Originally posted by Cabe2323
A lot of people (who are not neocons) consider FDR to be one of the worst Presidents in History.
The fact that some people dislike, disliked, or didn't like the smell of FDR's feet has no bearing on whether this was a NeoCon conspiracy. Another well placed logical fallacy, sadly it is merely the beginning.
Originally posted by Cabe2323
He turned this country into a socialist instead of the free democracy that it should be.
Whether he, as you put it, "turned this country into a socialist" matters not, as it is not a counter to my point, which was simply that NeoCon conspiracies exist at the highest of levels, and for you to even label them was a sad, weak, pathetic attempt to debunk legitimate arguments.
First paragraph out of the way and not one point made that would counter my statement, merely fallacy after fallacy.
Consequently, this style of respondence is the reason I salivate when I see asinine posts such as yours, because I love tearing your fleshy weak minded arguments apart.
Originally posted by Cabe2323
I don't need to quote the Patriots Handbook. The UCMJ Clearly states that we are to report any infractions of the UCMJ.
How does this argue the REALITY of every Militaries blind allegiance. What you are supposed to do in your, oh so beloved handbook, and what is done are not mutually exclusive. Even when soldiers don't agree you'd be hard pressed to find dissenters. You sound like a boy scout reciting your pledge of alligence, "the UCMJ clearly states".
Are you seriously this naive? lol.
Originally posted by Cabe2323 I am the Member of the US Navy. I have a much better Idea about the governmental structure then you do. All you have is internet ideas and silly conspiracies. I have history on my side.
The only history you have on your side is the “Those who don't know history are destined to repeat it” part.
As for being "the" member of the US Navy, I'd love to see you prove how that makes you any more qualified to speak on "the governmental structure" than anyone else. That line of logic is as idiotic as the argument stating that being American means you know more about American politics and history and thus win any debate regarding those issues. Not to mention you have no idea if I was once in the Army, Navy, or Air Force, but as I already pointed out, you merely used another fallacious argument, which you seem to have a predilection for.
Originally posted by Cabe2323 Thousands of US service members had PTSD because of the trama of dealing with Vietnam. They couldn't come to terms with the killing of Civilians who had bombs and weapons on them. Yet you seem to think that all the President needs to do is order the execution of some people protesting and we will do it.
Thousands of US service members HAVE PTSD for a numerous amount of reasons. Alluding that the military only killed civilians who were armed is horrid and shows that you either know nothing about that war or believe what the powers that be propagate to you. Yes indeed all the President needs to do is convince those in the military such as your self that certain acts are warranted and you will do them. If the majority of your country can be convinced to consistantly support wars that are unwarrented and in some cases illegal, how much effort would it take to convince those who signed up to actually get into combat. By your own BS arguments anyone in the military should have stood down during the Iraq war, since it broke international Law, yet, that didn't seem to happen now did it.
Originally posted by Cabe2323
You have no idea how the Military works, nor do you have any real idea how we think.
This is laughable on so many levels. If you care to debate, military history, strategy, tactics, novels, or theory just give me a holler. As for not understanding the Military mind, I AM it. Proven by my consistent and flawless strategic manuevering on these boards, you on the other hand are a great example why in guerrilla warfare you guys get your anus handed to you. I'd also be more than willing to prove my points literally, be it in one on one combat or team leadership. I have taken many Military friends up on their oh so innocent offer on this very subject. I'm sure you can guess by my tone how it turned out.
Originally posted by Cabe2323
I was tired and thinking of the comment in two ways. I actually meant to say the Preservation of Civilian life. Which is a huge priority of the military. There are numerous techniques and equipment that we do not use because it would cause excessive civilian casualities.
I admit I was taking a cheap shot here, but your statement was perfect. I knew exactly what you were trying to say. I do understand that the military has measures and codes, but that in no way means they are adhered to, or will be when a higher officer is commanding one to do something in the heat of battle.
Originally posted by Cabe2323
No I said that if all we cared about was winning at all costs that is what we would of done. But we care about civilians and not causing casualities. So for some reason the conspiracy theorists think that the same military members who take extreme measures to not kill Iraqi Civilians, would turn around and kill American Civilians with no problems.
Although you may care, some in the Military have been clearly shown not to and most definitely those in charge don't. Politicians care about the "popular vote" and when it sways to civil behaviour, your government will ATTEMPT to act accordingly. You think that much has changed with policy and the value of life when it comes to those running this planet. Honesty and morality are not characteristics most Polititions, CEO's, or Military leaders could put on there resume.
Originally posted by Cabe2323
We have a right to disagree with the actions of our politicians as well. So yes we are being placed in greater danger due to the planning that is being used by the military. But we care about protecting life and are willing to risk our lives in order to protect innocents ever where. The vast majority of the "Civilians" are actually happy that we helped them. They lived in an extremely oppressed country where the majority was treated horribly by the minority in power.
You protect the interests of the ruling Elite, you are no different than the infantry of the ancient world. You are merely the most unvaluable piece of military equipment on the battlefield chessboard. You're worth 1 point if you were wondering.
Yes please let us get back to talking and when you learn some stuff come back and join the conversation. It amuses me that even with a state or private education you lack all ability to critically think, make logical connections or think on your own, you merely parrot what you are told, live within the system and feel that somehow you have an enlightened understanding of the world around you. I have no accolades to represent me, no degrees or certificates to rely on when debating, I am relatively uneducated as far as the system is concerned, and I rely on my simple ability to think critically, read and ponder, added to a certain level of paranoia that helps me to see through the fog that bellows from the depths of those you call friends.
added to a certain level of paranoia that helps me to see through the fog that bellows from the depths of those you call friends.
I do not need to respond anything above that you have said. Because you say it best yourself here. Your Paranoia clouds your mind. You see conspiracies because you want to. You think that the government is actually competent enough to commit these types of acts. When I can see from being in the government that it isn't competent enough to build a road properly much less 99% of the conspiracies people float about.
Your "certain level of paranoia" reeks of mail bomber living in a cabin in the woods. I think your critical thinking and reading and pondering has been too biased towards one side and that you should broaden your intellectual horizons.
You seem to think that everyone in the military is incapable of individual thoughts, which means you are sadly mistaken. Don't take the actions of a few bad apples who are unable to determine the difference between a lawful order and an unlawful one fool you into thinking you know the Military as a whole.
Unlike you I have a formal education and I have been exposed to numerous different teachers with differing views from the far left to the far right. I have been able to take that learning and combine it with living overseas to formulate a very unbiased view of our nation.
You seem to call me out like I am some type of sheep who follows blindly and yet you know nothing about me. All you know is that I am in the Military. You know nothing of my Political Views nor of my Personal views. You know nothing about my history at all.
And on a side note. I have never actually seen you bury a thread Tunabun. Does your crushing wins in debates take place in your head?
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Look at what the CIA has done before and then tell us that the government can't orchestrate a great change.
The CIA Didn't have to deal with intrusive media and the internet back then. Now they can't even keep "secret prisons" a secret or the names of the operatives secret. And you think in todays day and age, when the media has a hand in everything going on (including broadcasting when attacks are going to start,etc) that the CIA can honestly keep something as massive as a Coup to overthrow the US government a secret?
What the people who believe there is some type of conspiracy with these laws are saying is that they believe that President Bush is going to declare Martial Law. Suspend the elections. and Use the military to do the whole thing. So that he can stay in power.
I can't believe that people actually see this as a plausible reality. We are talking about occupying a country that stretches between two oceans and holding 300 million people basically as hostages with around 1 million troops. And a rough estimate would state that around 100-200 million of those people would be armed.
So people honestly believe that someone would be stupid enough to think they could pull it off? God, we can't even occupy Iraq and quell dissent. And yet the same people who will happily point that out, seem to think we could do it to more people who are used to more freedom here.
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U.S. most armed country with 90 guns per 100 people
By Laura MacInnis Tue Aug 28, 1:25 PM ET
GENEVA (Reuters) - The United States has 90 guns for every 100 citizens, making it the most heavily armed society in the world, a report released on Tuesday said.
US. citizens own 270 million of the world's 875 million known firearms, according to the Small Arms Survey 2007 by the Geneva-based Graduate Institute of International Studies.
About 4.5 million of the 8 million new guns manufactured worldwide each year are purchased in the United States, it said.
"There is roughly one firearm for every seven people worldwide. Without the United States, though, this drops to about one firearm per 10 people," it said.
India had the world's second-largest civilian gun arsenal, with an estimated 46 million firearms outside law enforcement and the military, though this represented just four guns per 100 people there. China, ranked third with 40 million privately held guns, had 3 firearms per 100 people.
Germany, France, Pakistan, Mexico, Brazil and Russia were next in the ranking of country's overall civilian gun arsenals.
On a per-capita basis, Yemen had the second most heavily armed citizenry behind the United States, with 61 guns per 100 people, followed by Finland with 56, Switzerland with 46, Iraq with 39 and Serbia with 38.
France, Canada, Sweden, Austria and Germany were next, each with about 30 guns per 100 people, while many poorer countries often associated with violence ranked much lower. Nigeria, for instance, had just one gun per 100 people.
"Firearms are very unevenly distributed around the world. The image we have of certain regions such as Africa or Latin America being awash with weapons -- these images are certainly misleading," Small Arms Survey director Keith Krause said.
"Weapons ownership may be correlated with rising levels of wealth, and that means we need to think about future demand in parts of the world where economic growth is giving people larger disposable income," he told a Geneva news conference.
The report, which relied on government data, surveys and media reports to estimate the size of world arsenals, estimated there were 650 million civilian firearms worldwide, and 225 million held by law enforcement and military forces.
Five years ago, the Small Arms Survey had estimated there were a total of just 640 million firearms globally.
"Civilian holdings of weapons worldwide are much larger than we previously believed," Krause said, attributing the increase largely to better research and more data on weapon distribution networks.
Only about 12 percent of civilian weapons are thought to be registered with authorities.
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
I do not need to respond anything above that you have said. Ya, you wouldn't be able to debate it anyway, so why bother right? Because you say it best yourself here. Your Paranoia clouds your mind. You see conspiracies because you want to. I have more knowledge, ability, and intellect than you. I have clearer vision emotionally and intellectually than you. I am much better at reasoning, critical thought, and basic or advanced problem solving than you. All of which I've proven throughout this one sided episode some would label a debate. I see the possibility of conspiracies when the evidence suggests as much, just because you are an average joe with average abilities who sucks on the teat of your governmental structure, doesn't mean I am wrong, my ideas are loopy or that I have a dysfunctional disorder. You think that the government is actually competent enough to commit these types of acts. When I can see from being in the government that it isn't competent enough to build a road properly much less 99% of the conspiracies people float about. The competence of the government isn't what we are debating but rather the inexhaustible stupidity of the average Joe, i.e., you. Your "certain level of paranoia" reeks of mail bomber living in a cabin in the woods. I think your critical thinking and reading and pondering has been too biased towards one side and that you should broaden your intellectual horizons. If killing those in power who are destroying the lives and liberty of BILLIONS of people around the globe is what it takes then sure, I'm your huckleberry. Lol, I should broaden my horizons, I've lived all over the world, have close friends in 30 or more countries, most of which have major hardships and are directly affected by the self serving scumbag policies put out by your government. I doubt, compared to you, that I am the one in need of a mass awakening. You seem to think that everyone in the military is incapable of individual thoughts, which means you are sadly mistaken. Don't take the actions of a few bad apples who are unable to determine the difference between a lawful order and an unlawful one fool you into thinking you know the Military as a whole. Not everyone, I have many friends in the US Military, most in the Army and one in the Airforce, many of them are intelligent enough to admit the backwards stance your government takes on Human Life. I'll take your advice however, I won't let the imbecilic disgorgement of a so called educated individual sour my faith in higher education. Unlike you I have a formal education and I have been exposed to numerous different teachers with differing views from the far left to the far right. I have been able to take that learning and combine it with living overseas to formulate a very unbiased view of our nation. Unlike you I don't rely on my education as a supposed proof of my knowledge and open-mindedness. I show it through my words and deeds. You are one of the more biased posters on this site, it's humorous that you would claim the opposite. You seem to call me out like I am some type of sheep who follows blindly and yet you know nothing about me. All you know is that I am in the Military. You know nothing of my Political Views nor of my Personal views. You know nothing about my history at all. I call you out because you are wrong, I put you in your place, and then we, the royal we, laugh at you. I know what you lay down in text, and that is merely what I argued. I know your wife has a psychology degree and doesn't require her mates to have much intellect. I know you think that education in a scholastic polygonal structure means something grand. You are correct, I know little of your history, but luckily, knowing your history is in no way needed to hand you your literal carcass.
And on a side note. I have never actually seen you bury a thread Tunabun. Does your crushing wins in debates take place in your head? Lol, I've never lost any debate on this forum. I defend the weak from delusio-intellectuals such as yourself. You are mildly entertaining but you aren't even close to a challenge. I'm sure I'm hated here but I can guarantee that anyone with any level of knowledge of logical debate could verify how horribly fallacious nearly everything you have stated here is. You, and those like you are the quintessential example of why throughout history monsters masquerading as men have been able to destroy so much life and happiness. Good Will Hunting for the win.
I do not need to respond anything above that you have said. Ya, you wouldn't be able to debate it anyway, so why bother right? What is the point of debating your opinion? You haven't used any factual information. You claim your opinion as if it was the truth. Yet all you do is follow up your thoughts with more opinion. Because you say it best yourself here. Your Paranoia clouds your mind. You see conspiracies because you want to. I have more knowledge, ability, and intellect than you. I have clearer vision emotionally and intellectually than you. I am much better at reasoning, critical thought, and basic or advanced problem solving than you. All of which I've proven throughout this one sided episode some would label a debate. So you have more knowledge, ability, and intellect than I do? A clearer vision emotionally and intellectually too? And you are better at reasoning, critical thought, and basic or advanced problem solving than I. Wow you were able to prove that in this thread too? You are amazing. Your level of self delusion is quite grand. I envy your imaginary world that you live in where you seem to be so amazing. Maybe one day you will wake up from this delision that you have created and begin to actually make a place in the regular world. I see the possibility of conspiracies when the evidence suggests as much, just because you are an average joe with average abilities who sucks on the teat of your governmental structure, doesn't mean I am wrong, my ideas are loopy or that I have a dysfunctional disorder. Average joe. That is laughable. Once again you prove that you know nothing about me. You assume to know my intellect, education level, and experiences. You think that the government is actually competent enough to commit these types of acts. When I can see from being in the government that it isn't competent enough to build a road properly much less 99% of the conspiracies people float about. The competence of the government isn't what we are debating but rather the inexhaustible stupidity of the average Joe, i.e., you. Resorting to personal attacks. That is not a good sign at all. That is usually the sign of a very weak position. Obviously the competence of the government is exactly what the debate was about. You have chosen to try and change this into something else. But the OP and what we were actually talking about is directly related to the competence of the Government. The very question on the heart of this whole thread is whether the Government is creating a team to help with another situation like Katrina or to declare Martial Law so that Bush can stay in power. I think history has shown that the Government is in no way competent enough to pull off a military coup like that. It is a ridiculous theory of the anti government establishment. The very far wing of that group. A Little background info here. I personally believe that the US Government should be much smaller and each state should be individually stronger as the Constitution and the Founding fathers intended. I believe that our Military should be removed from overseas and only used to protect our own territory. I also believe that Social welfare programs should be scaled back and that the States should individually take care of their own. So an "average joe sucking the governmental teat" I am not. Your "certain level of paranoia" reeks of mail bomber living in a cabin in the woods. I think your critical thinking and reading and pondering has been too biased towards one side and that you should broaden your intellectual horizons. If killing those in power who are destroying the lives and liberty of BILLIONS of people around the globe is what it takes then sure, I'm your huckleberry. Ahh so American Service members are killing Billions of people huh? No blame should be placed on the terrorists who commit most of the killings. It is all our fault. That is a wonderful world view you have. You probably believe that 9/11 was our fault or maybe you even believe that the government did it. You probably believe that the Jews were at fault during the holocaust as well. Or maybe you don't believe that the Holocaust even took place? Lol, I should broaden my horizons, I've lived all over the world, have close friends in 30 or more countries, most of which have major hardships and are directly affected by the self serving scumbag policies put out by your government. I doubt, compared to you, that I am the one in need of a mass awakening. So, you don't have any friends in the hundreds of countries that recieve aid from the US? Or how about the millions upon millions of people that benefit from our aid? Not one of your friends either. So I guess a lot of your friends are European. The funny thing about the American Hate in other nations is it ins't exactly true. There was an article a couple of years back done by the BBC. Where the BBC reporter actually said that the reason people hate America is because they actually wish they were American. I find it extremely humerous that while our country is looking at Universal healthcare options (somehting Europe has had for years) European countries are looking more and more at private options. I guess the grass always does look greener. You seem to think that everyone in the military is incapable of individual thoughts, which means you are sadly mistaken. Don't take the actions of a few bad apples who are unable to determine the difference between a lawful order and an unlawful one fool you into thinking you know the Military as a whole. Not everyone, I have many friends in the US Military, most in the Army and one in the Airforce, many of them are intelligent enough to admit the backwards stance your government takes on Human Life. Find me a single Military in history that was in any significant wars who held human life in greater regard. Please do. I would love to see one. The US has always attempted to protect as many civilians as possible. I'll take your advice however, I won't let the imbecilic disgorgement of a so called educated individual sour my faith in higher education. Falling back on the personal attacks. Unlike you I have a formal education and I have been exposed to numerous different teachers with differing views from the far left to the far right. I have been able to take that learning and combine it with living overseas to formulate a very unbiased view of our nation. Unlike you I don't rely on my education as a supposed proof of my knowledge and open-mindedness. I show it through my words and deeds. You are one of the more biased posters on this site, it's humorous that you would claim the opposite. Ha. I am one of the more biased posters on this site? That is extremely funny. Unlike you who I actually have liberal and conservative views. You seem to call me out like I am some type of sheep who follows blindly and yet you know nothing about me. All you know is that I am in the Military. You know nothing of my Political Views nor of my Personal views. You know nothing about my history at all. I call you out because you are wrong, I put you in your place, and then we, the royal we, laugh at you. I know what you lay down in text, and that is merely what I argued. I know your wife has a psychology degree and doesn't require her mates to have much intellect. I know you think that education in a scholastic polygonal structure means something grand. You are correct, I know little of your history, but luckily, knowing your history is in no way needed to hand you your literal carcass. Hand me what? Once again you follow up with personal opinions and personal attacks. You don't back up anything you say with any factual unbaised information. You are extremely biased in your arguement and unwilling to deter from your supposed higher ground. I hope you and your "royal" enjoy your laughs. And on a side note. I have never actually seen you bury a thread Tunabun. Does your crushing wins in debates take place in your head? Lol, I've never lost any debate on this forum. I defend the weak from delusio-intellectuals such as yourself. You are mildly entertaining but you aren't even close to a challenge. I'm sure I'm hated here but I can guarantee that anyone with any level of knowledge of logical debate could verify how horribly fallacious nearly everything you have stated here is. It is funny that you actually call me fallacious. Considering you do not make use of any facts at all. You spout off your opinion like you should dare not be questioned. Your ideas are baised and twisted and have no real standing in fact. The actual arguement was about the usage of Clergy in response to disasters. The OP and a lot of others try to turn this into sometype of neocon/religious right conspiracy to take over the country. They attempt to say that it would be better to use mental health professionals to provide the service. Sure that would be fine, as long as they are willing to pay the extra taxes to cover the cost of using mental health professionals. For instance a Chaplain in the US Navy makes roughly 4K per month to provide this service. A Psychologist in the Navy makes 6250 per month if they are the same rank as that chaplain. For a civilian psychologist you are looking from about 100-300 dollars per hour. Not to mention the extraordinary risk of placing the civilian in a war like situation. I thoroughly enjoyed the supposed shredding I recieved. It gave me a good laugh. You, and those like you are the quintessential example of why throughout history monsters masquerading as men have been able to destroy so much life and happiness. Good Will Hunting for the win.
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
Originally posted by Cabe2323 Average joe. That is laughable. Once again you prove that you know nothing about me. You assume to know my intellect, education level, and experiences.
Odd, you seem to be fairly fond of doing the exact same thing.
I think if you actually read the KSLA-TV story, it's a far cry from the big deal the Opednews.com "reporter" makes it out to be. Amazingly enough, neither of these articles are cited or corroborated so I know I certainly trust everything they say.
I have read the original story. And I watched the original newscast, which is actually a bit longer, and more indepth than the written piece was, thanks.
At what point do you people stop, and tell the government that enough is enough? Do you really believe that stripping away your rights one at a time is a good thing?
What would you like them to do during a time of crisis? Let the people loot what was left after Katrina? Let them roam the streets murdering and stealing from other people?
I mean come on. Get off your high horse about "supposed" personal freedoms and really ask yourself. What would you do for your house in a time of extreme crisis. Would you gather your wife and children around and have a vote on what the best course of action is, or would you attempt to do what you need to save them?
Couple corpses strung up makes for a mighty impressive No Trespassing sign.
Just when I thought I could start agreeing with you, you post this. You have it all wrong. You shoot them then put there head on a pike for the sign.
Comments
Once again, this has absolutely nothing to do with Chaplains. These are civilian clergy being given government training to assist government control during martial law.
I'm trying to remain polite with you, Cabe. If you call me a conspiracy nut one more time, I will not remain so any longer. I have not resorted to any personal attacks against you thus far, but you keep taking shots at me. It had better stop if you want this to remain civil.
This truely changes nothing now.
Since we had this whole "Homeland security upgrade" we lost most of our rights anyhow.
All it takes is for some asshat in a office to go "Hey he looks like a terrorist/or has terrorist like ways" to kill your rights.
I'm not so much mad at the chumps who tossed planes into the buildings for doing what they did, as how they destroyed our freedoms (what little we really did have).
That makes mad, yet there is nothing to do about it anymore, we've lost democracy and have come into a new kind of dictatorship with a republic spin.
I miss the old republic, atleast then you killed indians or anything that was different. Now you can't even kill a squirel without a hunting license.
Except in Texas, they shoot anything.
What you guys are not understanding is that you are basing your "facts" on some garbage article that is extremely biased. While I am basing my facts on what the Government has done in the past. They did declare martial law in New Orleans. They did you the Military to police the city. They did take away weapons from the people of the city.
And guess what....
They did you Military Chaplains to provide counseling services down there. They did not enlist a bunch of civilian clergy to do so.
So I am sorry, you can continue to believe some editorial with no basis in facts at all. Or you can actually look at what the government has done in the past while declaring Martial Law. See it is pretty easy to understand what they are going to do since they have done it before.
I am sorry if I offended you Sawtooth, my comments were mainly directed at the OP. As you can see in his post a few up he is extremely anti Religion and was using this as an attack on something he doesn't have any knowledge about or even understand.
So once again I will repeat the Government did declare Martial Law during Katrina. They did take away all of the freedoms you are so worried about. And they did use Military Chaplains to provide counseling services.
Oh and guess what...
When the crisis was over they returned all of the freedoms.
Also I didn't notice this last night because I was tired:
"Dr. Durell Tuberville serves as chaplain for the Shreveport Fire Department and the Caddo Sheriff's Office."
The guy mentioned in the Article is not a Civilian Clergyman. He is a Chaplain for the Local Government. So even the very guy talking in the article isn't a Civilian Clergyman.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
"Nothing says obey me like a good head on a pole!"
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I have read the original story. And I watched the original newscast, which is actually a bit longer, and more indepth than the written piece was, thanks.
At what point do you people stop, and tell the government that enough is enough? Do you really believe that stripping away your rights one at a time is a good thing?
Read entire thread, find it interesting to base an isolated occurrence in New Orleans to clarify the State of the Union as a whole.
The city of New Orleans demanded the Govt stay Out initially after Katrina. Then, realized, in short order, they did indeed need help and proceeded to blame the Govt for not reacting sooner...
There Will always be diverse opinions against ANY Govt.
The US will be under martial law within a year...it will hold for a very short time, but ultimately it will fail. (Those incompetent jackasses couldn't even get control of one city - New Orleans - let alone every city in the US!!!) Millions will die in the ensuing chaos; food riots, revenge killings, rapes, and ethnic cleansing will rip through this country like wild fire.
The rich and powerful will flee to other countries or retreat into heavily fortified compounds...leaving the rest of us to our own devices; no laws, no rules, just do what you will. A few million sheeple (the lucky ones?) will be relocated to work camps where they will make bullets and bombs and clothing for "our" troops fighting WW III.
vivid imagination
I have read the original story. And I watched the original newscast, which is actually a bit longer, and more indepth than the written piece was, thanks.
At what point do you people stop, and tell the government that enough is enough? Do you really believe that stripping away your rights one at a time is a good thing?
Read entire thread, find it interesting to base an isolated occurrence in New Orleans to clarify the State of the Union as a whole.
The city of New Orleans demanded the Govt stay Out initially after Katrina. Then, realized, in short order, they did indeed need help and proceeded to blame the Govt for not reacting sooner...
There Will always be diverse opinions against ANY Govt.
I am not using it to clarify the State of the Union. I am using it as pretty much the only example of the Government Declaring Martial Law and using Clergy to help with this function.People seem to think that the government has some nefarious plans, when in fact when an emergency is declared the only feasable thing for the majority of people's safety is to declare martial law and fix the problem.
Some people in this very thread seem to think there is some type of conspiracy between the Neocons and the Religious right to declare Martial Law and then turn this country into some type of theocracy.
I can't believe that some people actually believe that crock of bull. The religious right can't even agree on what their plans are. Much less the Neocons either. Yet somehow they are going to pull off a coup throughout the 50 states to take control of this country. When each state has national Guard and militia that are pretty much just as well armed as the US Military who will be under the control of each individual Governor. And last time I check there aren't 50 Neocon Governors.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
The US will be under martial law within a year...it will hold for a very short time, but ultimately it will fail. (Those incompetent jackasses couldn't even get control of one city - New Orleans - let alone every city in the US!!!) Millions will die in the ensuing chaos; food riots, revenge killings, rapes, and ethnic cleansing will rip through this country like wild fire.
The rich and powerful will flee to other countries or retreat into heavily fortified compounds...leaving the rest of us to our own devices; no laws, no rules, just do what you will. A few million sheeple (the lucky ones?) will be relocated to work camps where they will make bullets and bombs and clothing for "our" troops fighting WW III.
vivid imagination
Thank you!Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.
I have read the original story. And I watched the original newscast, which is actually a bit longer, and more indepth than the written piece was, thanks.
At what point do you people stop, and tell the government that enough is enough? Do you really believe that stripping away your rights one at a time is a good thing?
Read entire thread, find it interesting to base an isolated occurrence in New Orleans to clarify the State of the Union as a whole.
The city of New Orleans demanded the Govt stay Out initially after Katrina. Then, realized, in short order, they did indeed need help and proceeded to blame the Govt for not reacting sooner...
There Will always be diverse opinions against ANY Govt.
I am not using it to clarify the State of the Union. I am using it as pretty much the only example of the Government Declaring Martial Law and using Clergy to help with this function.People seem to think that the government has some nefarious plans, when in fact when an emergency is declared the only feasable thing for the majority of people's safety is to declare martial law and fix the problem.
Some people in this very thread seem to think there is some type of conspiracy between the Neocons and the Religious right to declare Martial Law and then turn this country into some type of theocracy.
I can't believe that some people actually believe that crock of bull. The religious right can't even agree on what their plans are. Much less the Neocons either. Yet somehow they are going to pull off a coup throughout the 50 states to take control of this country. When each state has national Guard and militia that are pretty much just as well armed as the US Military who will be under the control of each individual Governor. And last time I check there aren't 50 Neocon Governors.
I don't think they are using religious figures to start a theocracy and I don't think any one ever said that. If this truly is happening they are getting trained to calm us down and submit. Btw, martial law was never called in new orleans, It was a state of emergency. On top of all this, the national guard will be under the direct command of the president according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.R._5122_(2006)
I have read the original story. And I watched the original newscast, which is actually a bit longer, and more indepth than the written piece was, thanks.
At what point do you people stop, and tell the government that enough is enough? Do you really believe that stripping away your rights one at a time is a good thing?
Read entire thread, find it interesting to base an isolated occurrence in New Orleans to clarify the State of the Union as a whole.
The city of New Orleans demanded the Govt stay Out initially after Katrina. Then, realized, in short order, they did indeed need help and proceeded to blame the Govt for not reacting sooner...
There Will always be diverse opinions against ANY Govt.
I am not using it to clarify the State of the Union. I am using it as pretty much the only example of the Government Declaring Martial Law and using Clergy to help with this function.People seem to think that the government has some nefarious plans, when in fact when an emergency is declared the only feasable thing for the majority of people's safety is to declare martial law and fix the problem.
Some people in this very thread seem to think there is some type of conspiracy between the Neocons and the Religious right to declare Martial Law and then turn this country into some type of theocracy.
I can't believe that some people actually believe that crock of bull. The religious right can't even agree on what their plans are. Much less the Neocons either. Yet somehow they are going to pull off a coup throughout the 50 states to take control of this country. When each state has national Guard and militia that are pretty much just as well armed as the US Military who will be under the control of each individual Governor. And last time I check there aren't 50 Neocon Governors.
I don't think they are using religious figures to start a theocracy and I don't think any one ever said that. If this truly is happening they are getting trained to calm us down and submit. Btw, martial law was never called in new orleans, It was a state of emergency. On top of all this, the national guard will be under the direct command of the president according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.R._5122_(2006)
The military was policing the streets. A curfew was put into place. Individual freedoms were taken away. Yes it was Martial Law. It might not of been called that but it sure was.Secondly the OP very much is taking this article and situation as some type of Neocon conspiracy.
Thirdly the President can take control all he wants, but if what he is doing is wrong he is going to find it very hard to command the troops. The OP likes to make out that the soldiers are mindless beings who will say how high when the president says jump. But in fact we have very clear rules about questioning unlawful orders. One of those things is preservation of Civilian casualities.
Take the "war" in Iraq (which btw like the new orleans non- martial law incident, is also not really what it is, Since the WAr isn't actually a war since congress never declared war) We could of won by now very easily, but we are taking extreme measures to make sure we perserve civilian life to the best of our ability. Even to the point of placing our troops in greater danger. And people actually expect this type of military to go into a city and open fire on American Civilians? That is laughable.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
Fixed.
- Burying Threads Since 1979 -
Because those don't exist. lol.
Really, mind citing all thousands of examples in your "A Patriots Handbook" where a President or Military Leader found it difficult to command the troops into doing immoral, unethical, or illegal acts?
I guess everyone starts out with such an idealistic view on their governmental structure. I used to like "wholesone" Disney movies too.
I love how your statement is oh so true yet not what you were intending.
"prevention"
So winning means killing a mass portion of the populous, military and civilian alike? Ok, duly noted, you are on the "I don't believe in proportionality" side of the debate.
Oh dear, placing your "volunteer" military troops in danger. I'm sure most civilians in the myriad countries in which the US has instigated or supported war in wish they could voluntarily be placed in the situation which has been forced upon them.
When Grown Folks are Talking...
- Burying Threads Since 1979 -
Because those don't exist. lol.
Wow you went way back there to pull that one out. And the piece is very biased. A lot of people (who are not neocons) consider FDR to be one of the worst Presidents in History. He turned this country into a socialist instead of the free democracy that it should be.
Really, mind citing all thousands of examples in your "A Patriots Handbook" where a President or Military Leader found it difficult to command the troops into doing immoral, unethical, or illegal acts?
I don't need to quote the Patriots Handbook. The UCMJ Clearly states that we are to report any infractions of the UCMJ.
I guess everyone starts out with such an idealistic view on their governmental structure. I used to like "wholesone" Disney movies too.
I am the Member of the US Navy. I have a much better Idea about the governmental structure then you do. All you have is internet ideas and silly conspiracies. I have history on my side.
Thousands of US service members had PTSD because of the trama of dealing with Vietnam. They couldn't come to terms with the killing of Civilians who had bombs and weapons on them. Yet you seem to think that all the President needs to do is order the execution of some people protesting and we will do it.
You have no idea how the Military works, nor do you have any real idea how we think.
I love how your statement is oh so true yet not what you were intending.
"prevention"
I was tired and thinking of the comment in two ways. I actually meant to say the Preservation of Civilian life. Which is a huge priority of the military. There are numerous techniques and equipment that we do not use because it would cause excessive civilian casualities.
So winning means killing a mass portion of the populous, military and civilian alike? Ok, duly noted, you are on the "I don't believe in proportionality" side of the debate.
No I said that if all we cared about was winning at all costs that is what we would of done. But we care about civilians and not causing casualities. So for some reason the conspiracy theorists think that the same military members who take extreme measures to not kill Iraqi Civilians, would turn around and kill American Civilians with no problems.
Oh dear, placing your "volunteer" military troops in danger. I'm sure most civilians in the myriad countries in which the US has instigated or supported war in wish they could voluntarily be placed in the situation which has been forced upon them.
We have a right to disagree with the actions of our politicians as well. So yes we are being placed in greater danger due to the planning that is being used by the military. But we care about protecting life and are willing to risk our lives in order to protect innocents ever where.
The vast majority of the "Civilians" are actually happy that we helped them. They lived in an extremely oppressed country where the majority was treated horribly by the minority in power.
When Grown Folks are Talking...
Yes please let us get back to talking and when you learn some stuff come back and join the conversation.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
Did you seriously think this weak rebuttal was worthy of the smack I laid down? I'll simply tear you to bits, then go back to watching my tin foil hat specials.
Originally posted by tunabun
The age has no relevance, it was a NeoCon conspiracy. As I will point out throughout this response, you seem to chronically rely on fallacious debate.
Originally posted by Cabe2323
And the piece is very biased.
Mind stating how it's biased, you don't generally like to source or cite your comments, you mearly make fallacious statements as to try to shortcut to a deviatory victory.
Originally posted by Cabe2323
A lot of people (who are not neocons) consider FDR to be one of the worst Presidents in History.
The fact that some people dislike, disliked, or didn't like the smell of FDR's feet has no bearing on whether this was a NeoCon conspiracy. Another well placed logical fallacy, sadly it is merely the beginning.
Originally posted by Cabe2323
He turned this country into a socialist instead of the free democracy that it should be.
Whether he, as you put it, "turned this country into a socialist" matters not, as it is not a counter to my point, which was simply that NeoCon conspiracies exist at the highest of levels, and for you to even label them was a sad, weak, pathetic attempt to debunk legitimate arguments.
First paragraph out of the way and not one point made that would counter my statement, merely fallacy after fallacy.
Consequently, this style of respondence is the reason I salivate when I see asinine posts such as yours, because I love tearing your fleshy weak minded arguments apart.
How does this argue the REALITY of every Militaries blind allegiance. What you are supposed to do in your, oh so beloved handbook, and what is done are not mutually exclusive. Even when soldiers don't agree you'd be hard pressed to find dissenters. You sound like a boy scout reciting your pledge of alligence, "the UCMJ clearly states".
Are you seriously this naive? lol.
The only history you have on your side is the “Those who don't know history are destined to repeat it” part.
As for being "the" member of the US Navy, I'd love to see you prove how that makes you any more qualified to speak on "the governmental structure" than anyone else. That line of logic is as idiotic as the argument stating that being American means you know more about American politics and history and thus win any debate regarding those issues. Not to mention you have no idea if I was once in the Army, Navy, or Air Force, but as I already pointed out, you merely used another fallacious argument, which you seem to have a predilection for.
Originally posted by Cabe2323
Thousands of US service members had PTSD because of the trama of dealing with Vietnam. They couldn't come to terms with the killing of Civilians who had bombs and weapons on them. Yet you seem to think that all the President needs to do is order the execution of some people protesting and we will do it.
Thousands of US service members HAVE PTSD for a numerous amount of reasons. Alluding that the military only killed civilians who were armed is horrid and shows that you either know nothing about that war or believe what the powers that be propagate to you.
Yes indeed all the President needs to do is convince those in the military such as your self that certain acts are warranted and you will do them. If the majority of your country can be convinced to consistantly support wars that are unwarrented and in some cases illegal, how much effort would it take to convince those who signed up to actually get into combat. By your own BS arguments anyone in the military should have stood down during the Iraq war, since it broke international Law, yet, that didn't seem to happen now did it.
Originally posted by Cabe2323
You have no idea how the Military works, nor do you have any real idea how we think.
This is laughable on so many levels. If you care to debate, military history, strategy, tactics, novels, or theory just give me a holler. As for not understanding the Military mind, I AM it. Proven by my consistent and flawless strategic manuevering on these boards, you on the other hand are a great example why in guerrilla warfare you guys get your anus handed to you.
I'd also be more than willing to prove my points literally, be it in one on one combat or team leadership. I have taken many Military friends up on their oh so innocent offer on this very subject. I'm sure you can guess by my tone how it turned out.
Originally posted by Cabe2323
I was tired and thinking of the comment in two ways. I actually meant to say the Preservation of Civilian life. Which is a huge priority of the military. There are numerous techniques and equipment that we do not use because it would cause excessive civilian casualities.
I admit I was taking a cheap shot here, but your statement was perfect. I knew exactly what you were trying to say. I do understand that the military has measures and codes, but that in no way means they are adhered to, or will be when a higher officer is commanding one to do something in the heat of battle.
Originally posted by Cabe2323
No I said that if all we cared about was winning at all costs that is what we would of done. But we care about civilians and not causing casualities. So for some reason the conspiracy theorists think that the same military members who take extreme measures to not kill Iraqi Civilians, would turn around and kill American Civilians with no problems.
Although you may care, some in the Military have been clearly shown not to and most definitely those in charge don't. Politicians care about the "popular vote" and when it sways to civil behaviour, your government will ATTEMPT to act accordingly. You think that much has changed with policy and the value of life when it comes to those running this planet. Honesty and morality are not characteristics most Polititions, CEO's, or Military leaders could put on there resume.
Originally posted by Cabe2323
We have a right to disagree with the actions of our politicians as well. So yes we are being placed in greater danger due to the planning that is being used by the military. But we care about protecting life and are willing to risk our lives in order to protect innocents ever where.
The vast majority of the "Civilians" are actually happy that we helped them. They lived in an extremely oppressed country where the majority was treated horribly by the minority in power.
You protect the interests of the ruling Elite, you are no different than the infantry of the ancient world. You are merely the most unvaluable piece of military equipment on the battlefield chessboard. You're worth 1 point if you were wondering.
Yes please let us get back to talking and when you learn some stuff come back and join the conversation.
It amuses me that even with a state or private education you lack all ability to critically think, make logical connections or think on your own, you merely parrot what you are told, live within the system and feel that somehow you have an enlightened understanding of the world around you.
I have no accolades to represent me, no degrees or certificates to rely on when debating, I am relatively uneducated as far as the system is concerned, and I rely on my simple ability to think critically, read and ponder, added to a certain level of paranoia that helps me to see through the fog that bellows from the depths of those you call friends.
- Burying Threads Since 1979 -
I do not need to respond anything above that you have said. Because you say it best yourself here. Your Paranoia clouds your mind. You see conspiracies because you want to. You think that the government is actually competent enough to commit these types of acts. When I can see from being in the government that it isn't competent enough to build a road properly much less 99% of the conspiracies people float about.
Your "certain level of paranoia" reeks of mail bomber living in a cabin in the woods. I think your critical thinking and reading and pondering has been too biased towards one side and that you should broaden your intellectual horizons.
You seem to think that everyone in the military is incapable of individual thoughts, which means you are sadly mistaken. Don't take the actions of a few bad apples who are unable to determine the difference between a lawful order and an unlawful one fool you into thinking you know the Military as a whole.
Unlike you I have a formal education and I have been exposed to numerous different teachers with differing views from the far left to the far right. I have been able to take that learning and combine it with living overseas to formulate a very unbiased view of our nation.
You seem to call me out like I am some type of sheep who follows blindly and yet you know nothing about me. All you know is that I am in the Military. You know nothing of my Political Views nor of my Personal views. You know nothing about my history at all.
And on a side note. I have never actually seen you bury a thread Tunabun. Does your crushing wins in debates take place in your head?
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Look at what the CIA has done before and then tell us that the government can't orchestrate a great change.
What the people who believe there is some type of conspiracy with these laws are saying is that they believe that President Bush is going to declare Martial Law. Suspend the elections. and Use the military to do the whole thing. So that he can stay in power.
I can't believe that people actually see this as a plausible reality. We are talking about occupying a country that stretches between two oceans and holding 300 million people basically as hostages with around 1 million troops. And a rough estimate would state that around 100-200 million of those people would be armed.
So people honestly believe that someone would be stupid enough to think they could pull it off? God, we can't even occupy Iraq and quell dissent. And yet the same people who will happily point that out, seem to think we could do it to more people who are used to more freedom here.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
Oh I am sorry. My rough estimate wasn't even close.
Guns
U.S. most armed country with 90 guns per 100 people
By Laura MacInnis Tue Aug 28, 1:25 PM ET
GENEVA (Reuters) - The United States has 90 guns for every 100 citizens, making it the most heavily armed society in the world, a report released on Tuesday said.
US. citizens own 270 million of the world's 875 million known firearms, according to the Small Arms Survey 2007 by the Geneva-based Graduate Institute of International Studies.
About 4.5 million of the 8 million new guns manufactured worldwide each year are purchased in the United States, it said.
"There is roughly one firearm for every seven people worldwide. Without the United States, though, this drops to about one firearm per 10 people," it said.
India had the world's second-largest civilian gun arsenal, with an estimated 46 million firearms outside law enforcement and the military, though this represented just four guns per 100 people there. China, ranked third with 40 million privately held guns, had 3 firearms per 100 people.
Germany, France, Pakistan, Mexico, Brazil and Russia were next in the ranking of country's overall civilian gun arsenals.
On a per-capita basis, Yemen had the second most heavily armed citizenry behind the United States, with 61 guns per 100 people, followed by Finland with 56, Switzerland with 46, Iraq with 39 and Serbia with 38.
France, Canada, Sweden, Austria and Germany were next, each with about 30 guns per 100 people, while many poorer countries often associated with violence ranked much lower. Nigeria, for instance, had just one gun per 100 people.
"Firearms are very unevenly distributed around the world. The image we have of certain regions such as Africa or Latin America being awash with weapons -- these images are certainly misleading," Small Arms Survey director Keith Krause said.
"Weapons ownership may be correlated with rising levels of wealth, and that means we need to think about future demand in parts of the world where economic growth is giving people larger disposable income," he told a Geneva news conference.
The report, which relied on government data, surveys and media reports to estimate the size of world arsenals, estimated there were 650 million civilian firearms worldwide, and 225 million held by law enforcement and military forces.
Five years ago, the Small Arms Survey had estimated there were a total of just 640 million firearms globally.
"Civilian holdings of weapons worldwide are much larger than we previously believed," Krause said, attributing the increase largely to better research and more data on weapon distribution networks.
Only about 12 percent of civilian weapons are thought to be registered with authorities.
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LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
- Burying Threads Since 1979 -
I don't quite like you tunabun but boy is it entertaining watching you tear people apart so elegantly.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
He knows how to DEBATE, that makes him nothing more than a good orator.
Manipulating peoples responses is his challenge. That doesn't preclude right, wrong or indifferent.
Only that he can put words into sentences and berate those he sees as a twisted challenge.
His self proclaimed victories only serve an inadequate and meager existence of his 'Real World'.
Stay tuned for the required 'FIXED' response. Only to self serve.
Odd, you seem to be fairly fond of doing the exact same thing.
I have read the original story. And I watched the original newscast, which is actually a bit longer, and more indepth than the written piece was, thanks.
At what point do you people stop, and tell the government that enough is enough? Do you really believe that stripping away your rights one at a time is a good thing?
What would you like them to do during a time of crisis? Let the people loot what was left after Katrina? Let them roam the streets murdering and stealing from other people?
I mean come on. Get off your high horse about "supposed" personal freedoms and really ask yourself. What would you do for your house in a time of extreme crisis. Would you gather your wife and children around and have a vote on what the best course of action is, or would you attempt to do what you need to save them?
Couple corpses strung up makes for a mighty impressive No Trespassing sign.
Just when I thought I could start agreeing with you, you post this. You have it all wrong. You shoot them then put there head on a pike for the sign.If you agree with that, then we are all better.