Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
I've lost hope in MMORPGs. Goodbye fellow vets
This discussion has been closed.
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Comments
Basically, you are trying to dismiss the argument entirely. There are other players here who want to debate this subject, and they are doing so. Don't jump in here and ruin the debate by trying to invalidate the entire argument.Am I leaving? Yes, I won't be trying anything new and will play MMORPGs at a much lower rate than I have in the past, until I drop off the map. Just because I'm leaving doesn't mean I don't have a reduced right to post in these forums, any more than you do.
Am I sounding condescending? Sorry, again. I'm not here to nurture people's feelings - i'm trying to shed light on the subject we are debating.
We are debating the topic that was introduced in the original post - if you have nothing to add to the argument, please leave.
What part of my post did you find so hard to understand? If you look in my post it even states.." I have no problem with someone stating a preferred play style or setting to a game. I do however have a problem when people start stereotyping others just because they do not agree." I never claimed you had no right to post here, just try doing so in a more respectful manner if you want civilized conversation. There has been no light at all shed upon the subject from you beyond your preferences and then apparent distate you have for players whom you feel you need to belittle over the fact that they have something they enjoy while you don't. It's kind of reminds me of a child's temper tantrum.
There are some interesting dynamics related to this topic that I think are causing many of the newer MMOs to be led astray and take the wrong path(s):
First, it's necessary to point out that the posters saying the "PvE market has won" are quite wrong. The games that are doing quite well right now are EVE, Guild Wars, Wow, and the like. They all have PvP elements. Games with little to no PvP elements are floundering, like Vanguard and DDO. The market has spoken, and PvP is the clear winner.
Strangely, however, I doubt most people would claim PvP-centricity. This is the interesting dynamic that MMO designers are missing. PvE-ers to a large degree want social interaction, but have inhibitions about actually making it happen. In other words, many of them are confused. (BTW, I think this confusion frustrates many veteran PvP-ers because it seems so silly - its just a game.) PvE-ers don't generally do well by themselves. They grind, get all the uber loot they can, look around and see no one cares, then leave for another grindfest somewhere where they think someone might be watching.
FFA PvP, on the other hand, has the interesting dynamic of often policing itself. If things get out of hand, players band together and create "safe" zones for their own purposes. I think one of the worst mistakes ever made was when a developer saw that players were creating safe zones and decided to make it part of the code. I'm sure it seemed harmless...
The MMORPG genre has been and should always be about free form social interaction and expression. FFA PvP is an intrinsic part of that style, and until the game developers wake up and start understanding (which I think has already began to a certain degree), the players are going to have a hard time finding games that last.
I am curious since there are rewards for all the different BG's in WoW and those rewards happen to be weapons, armor, trinkets ect, what is the difference in that and fighting over a mine that you can use the mats out of to create armor, weapons, trinkets ect? Is this not meaningfull enough PvP? in the end the PvP rewards in WoW are really easy to get if your groups do not suck and it doesn't take an incredable amount of time. Winning screws your enemy because it forces him to grind mor honor or marks. So where is the grind? Unless you are constantly on the losing end and chances are that you are not on the losing end all the time. I do agree that fighting over land masses or castles or cities is a lot of fun and it does bring a lot more meaning to PvP when you owning a part of the game world effects everyone else. But you can not tell me that you can discount the way that PvP was implemented in a game like WoW because you got jaded by your experience.
If you have any interest in Science Fiction try Eve Online. It is certainly an uphill battle to understand it but people who play MMORPGs usually like such a challenge.
Yet another comment made with some valid argument points ruined by a lack of tact. You could make arguments for your preferred game style without having to make attacks on others and the choices they make.
Nah, he is coming here just to flame and practice typing the word "carebear". Guess he just learn the word and is very excited.Well as for his argument, its not all correct. Competition takes a lot of forms from head to head collision like boxing to racing to a mark, like 100m race. PVP is more like boxing you beat the other guy. PVE is somewhat less confronting, you win by showing off your gear, your title, your house, your city, your rank, your ... . Fame in the game is also a form of competition.
In the barbarian days, we compete by chopping off the head of the neighbor. In the Roman world, they compete with intrigue, plot, business wealth, or manipulating behind the senators. I wonder why people do not see the Romans as carebears while the barbarians were seldom praised as heroes.
Do you always think that people in PVE are not competing at all? Try look at what happens in a PUG raid when a 1/1000000 th chance drop lays on the ground.
As for those who think that PVP is true heroism, or truly makes a big man, grow up. Flashing a big gun in front of an infant is an act of cowardice. Ganging on the noob, camping a gate, or stealth killing an unexpected opponent is not the usual definition of a hero. For all the big talks about how good people can be in a ffa pvp world, how many more people feel the nasty side of pvp and give up? The fact that players flock to pve or regulated pvp might be a suggestion. The man who is willing to control his greed and innate desire to "own" and cooperate with others for a greater win for all, is in some way a bigger hero. After all, the hero is not the one waving a big banner in front of a cheering crowd. He is usually the one who sacrificed allowing the movement to hit the zenith, and allowing those unscrupulous politicians to go out and steal the show.
I would say, PVP is fun, PVE is fun, IF AND ONLY IF its implemented in a FUN way. Yes sounds circular reasoning, but I want to point out that its the rule that makes something fun. PVP and PVE is just part of the rules that defines the game in total. In a game in which everyone can kill everyone else with cheats and cracks (diablo 1 anyone?) there is no fun. The winner is the one who tries to host the game and implements the biggest cheat (instant town killing anyone?). No fun. The functioning of a game is the rule, the environment, warriors got x2 as much hp as a mage, but mages hits x2 as hard, that is the rule. Even a so call free pvp is subjected to rules of the spells, of ... . RVR is another type of rule, red naming is another. Restriction to fighting in arena yet another. If the rules/environment makes pvp fun (siege warfare, lots of siegecraft, wall or defensive constructs, raid formation that facilitates team work ...), then there is a chance to organise fun pvp, crafting, leadership, teamwork ... all goes together to give a sense of purpose as we go kill the other side.
Different game implements pvp in its own way. People with different taste for forms of competition are given a fairly wide spectrum of games to choose from. From gore pvp (FPS, Fury, UO, EVE) to almost total cooperation (coop server of DAoC), you play what you want, but you can only play with people willing to join you in your chosen game/server. The only reason I saw that ffa pvp rant is that the ffa pvp form of game/server is largely deserted, and those who want to play the most extreme form of pvp find themselves lonely.
My greatest reservations to ffa pvp is player quality. Bad money drives out good money, bad players drives out the civil ones. The lowest common denominator rules. If someone begins to hack, cheat, and gang/grief, you either do it or you suffer. If the system rewards the cheaters (full loot or whatever), more will be attracted to that form of behaviour. Do not kid me by saying that the MMORPG community consists of all the best moraled people following the 10 commendants. Eventually only the worst bunch of mob players are left and they will start screaming "carebears carebears where are you, come log in so I got some chance to test my latest version of cheat.exe"
I only have a few hours a week for games, as I have a lot of other things to do after work. Carebear or not, I do not want to go around with bloodlust pvpers, who try to stab me once I go afk talking with my neighbors 20 month old. Dying might be fun, but I just happen to find slightly more fun ways of gaming elsewhere.
yeah this is the painful truth of it all. PVe'ers tend to burn through content. PVPers create fun for each other.
Richard Bartle classified carebears as 'achievers'. If they have no goal (like uber loot), this type will stop playing. The only players that create content for each other are socializers and killers he describes. Explorers will stick around too to experiment with game mechanics.
The only type that burns through content is achiever (aka carebear)
{edit} however, most of us aren't 100% one of these types. so its a tricky thing to make a broad generalization. especially since most of us change as we mature (go from 100% killer to a bit of all)
Well PVPers think and define what they create as content. Others see what PVPers bring along as chaos or even torment. PVPers might think they are doing good to the game, but what generally happen is most people move away from them. Achievers, carebears whatever labels being used these people do not automatically prefer to mingle with the PVPers.
When a lovely girl declines my date proposal, what do I call her? carebear?
It is not a crime to burn through content. If you burn through the content (burgers) in MacDonalds, should I call you a carebear? The PVEers pay a fee to do whatever they want in a game they subscribed to, and some of them want to run thru the missions since they find it fun, more fun than your endless PKing. You got no right to question their preference.
As for creation of content, I wonder, I doubt. Creation of content for each other? Who is each other? The few who stay behind to keep killing each other? or the "others" who left the game and do not want to be your each other?
I noticed that people have been saying PvE has won - which is just dumb. WoW is not strictly a PvP or PvE game, I don't know what they are basing their argument on. If PvE won, EQ2 would be much more popular. In fact, PvP in MMORPGs has increased since the days of UO and runescape.
1. PvEer's often believe that people will notice their shiny new piece of armor.
2.PvEer's are often nervous about social interaction. PvP-centered players tend to be somewhat more promiscuous and uninhibited (not ALWAYS, mr.Unicorn)
I used to be drawn in by the feeling that people would envy me if I grinded for items; but learned that nobody cares about anyone but themselves within PvE circles. There are a few beggars here and there, but the large ammount of players are very competitive and want to get items for themselves. It's odd how many raiders actually hate raiding - they just do it for the items. Many of these players don't know what it is they want from the game; they let instinct take over and go for the most powerful items.
Strange how all the people against FFA PvP always bring up the point that you can get ganked anywhere. Perhaps I enjoy being prey, because I never once had a problem with ganking in WoW. I got ganked plenty, and got angry as hell, but never expected some intervention from the developers. I blame the gankers themselves. I don't see why carebears go running to the developers to create some godlike protection for them in-game. Ganking isn't so bad that it ruins the game. And honestly, it can be fun losing a conflict. I look back at all the games of halo where I've really been beat to shit by someone with more skill; and remember them being fun. Perhaps some people just lament too much when they can't be handed an easy win - and therefore must avoid combat with a thinking enemy at all costs; avoiding pvp and battling simple-minded mobs.
With experience, these players will learn to enjoy PvP.
Fighting a helpless monster that has been killed thousands of times by players worldwide, and several times by yourself, again and again - is nothing short of cruel. Do you really feel a sense of accomplishment when you defeat an instanced boss again and again and again? It uses the same tricks every time you battle it, and you feel like a big strong value-oriented player because you defeated the evil monster that had no ability to attack you in the first place.
We've already addressed the argument that the FFA PvP crowd is allegedly smaller - which it is not. Were that true, EQ2 would probably be more popular, and MMORPGs would not have had progressively more relaxed PvP rules since the days of runescape.
Quit pretending like all the players who play WoW are PVEer's. Many of them are players who ended up raiding because that is the fastest/easiest way to get good gear.
Orthedos please. Read the posts that occured before you jumped in. Your responses are covering some ground we've already gone over.
I noticed that you are saying that gamers should have free choice. That is not the topic of the argument. If I like to eat shit and say it is not better or worse because it is my choice - I would never survive as a food critic.
Ignore the insults between the hardcore PvEers and hardcore PvPers and focus on the subject at hand. The only constructive information that will come out of this post will not be flames.
Come to think of it, I have not even seen the original standpoint that some of the opposition have towards MMORPGs and where they are headed. Why not tell me what you stand for, rather than shooting down the ideas that other people have? You will see how much more difficult it is to defend your own ground than simple attack everyone else's.
What do you value in MMORPGs? What sort of gameplay do you think is the future of MMORPGs? What is the gameplay that has the best score overall in popularity, fun, etc? Why is it so fun?
I noticed that people have been saying PvE has won - which is just dumb. WoW is not strictly a PvP or PvE game, I don't know what they are basing their argument on. If PvE won, EQ2 would be much more popular. In fact, PvP in MMORPGs has increased since the days of UO and runescape.
PVE is not fighting against PVP, that only appears in your mind, so there is no PVE winning and PVP losing. PVEers and PVPers are basically two different style of playing and that might be the same person. I for one, am trying to point out that PVE seems to attract more development attention, and this seems to suggest more interest in PVE than PVP from paying customers.
1. PvEer's often believe that people will notice their shiny new piece of armor.
You think so, not all PVEers care for loot or armor or grind. Some lady I know in person are interested in finding matching armor with look and color that is beautiful. Only some, no claims at majority or anything. It goes to say at different times people may have different wishes from a game.
2.PvEer's are often nervous about social interaction. PvP-centered players tend to be somewhat more promiscuous and uninhibited (not ALWAYS, mr.Unicorn)
You think so. Since you only know so many (a few hundred WoWers you claim), you tend to over generalise the statement. I wonder what nervous about social interaction means, does it mean nervous about being ganked upon exiting the newbie zone? Is that a meaning form of social interaction? What else is missing in a normal PVE game that a PVP game has, apart from being killed by a fellow player? If that is the kind of social interaction you are referring to, it is possible that there are quite a portion of PVEers not interested in that kind of interaction.
As for all those claims on competition, there are many ways to compete, cutting off the head of the rival is not usually the most welcome way of competing. Competing for gear, title, fame, crafting quality, guild status .... lots of competition that brings less personal confrontation and less attracting to griefers. I for one do not always wait to hang around the cut-throats.
I used to be drawn in by the feeling that people would envy me if I grinded for items; but learned that nobody cares about anyone but themselves within PvE circles. There are a few beggars here and there, but the large ammount of players are very competitive and want to get items for themselves. It's odd how many raiders actually hate raiding - they just do it for the items. Many of these players don't know what it is they want from the game; they let instinct take over and go for the most powerful items.
It is odd how many workers hate working. So what? What does your long winding argument lead to? Many of these players do not know what they want, but you know what they want? Oh you must be very intelligent. Can you tell me what Bush want tonight?
Strange how all the people against FFA PvP always bring up the point that you can get ganked anywhere. Perhaps I enjoy being prey, because I never once had a problem with ganking in WoW. I got ganked plenty, and got angry as hell, but never expected some intervention from the developers. I blame the gankers themselves. I don't see why carebears go running to the developers to create some godlike protection for them in-game. Ganking isn't so bad that it ruins the game. And honestly, it can be fun losing a conflict. I look back at all the games of halo where I've really been beat to shit by someone with more skill; and remember them being fun. Perhaps some people just lament too much when they can't be handed an easy win - and therefore must avoid combat with a thinking enemy at all costs; avoiding pvp and battling simple-minded mobs.
Why is it strange that people who has experience the excess of griefing and ganking decides that they do not want it? You say you like it, sure you do. We do not find it strange. Perhaps you should try to be a bit tolerant and understand that it is possible that people like something you do not, and you might not understand why they like it, and you do not NEED to understand, nor do you NEED to comment about.
With experience, these players will learn to enjoy PvP.
with experience, these players will learn to enjoy PVE, a statement as empty as yours.
Most of what you are saying are opinions which you are fully entitled. I have reservations, and hold somewhat different opinion. Opinion can differ. You view is noted, but so far I feel my views to be more comfortable to me.
IMO FFA PVP is the wave of the future.
What do people play MMO's for? Why not single player games?
A sense of community. Social interaction.
FFA PVP is the best way to get community because you NEED each other for common protection. There is a sense of "that's my buddy and nobody better attack him."
That's something that PvE "tries" to emulate but fails, because the NPC's are just dumb scripts, so if the group fails to take down a boss mob, its not solidatiry, its a blame game of "who screwed up."
In PvE environment you are competing with the people on your team, you are not really a team you are just individuals trying to one-up each other in terms of gear, dice rolls, crits and so forth. This leads to a very poor feeling of community.
In WoW my guild leader was a cool person but I cant say we were friends, because we didnt need each other, we were independent PvE competators rolling on loot.
In PvP environment you are part of your defense network, there is a real feeling of comeraderie, and a real feeling of hatred for your enemies. This leads to a much better community that truly appreciates each other with genuine feelings of comeraderie.
I do not know if PVP is the future. I know PVP is always here and is being incorporated in many forms over all the major games. I do not believe that cut-throat ganking is the best social interaction. I for one do not like it.
As for PVE being less socially dependent? Try maintaining a raid team of 24 or 48, the dependency is very obvious and solidarity sometimes very moving. Blame game? not really, mistakes and learning is always part of the game, but there is hardly blaming. After all, its a game, we wipe we laugh we log out. Do it again some other day.
Its impossible to generalise and rank PVP over PVE or the other round. It all depends on the game. If its fun, it will be played.
Haven't both sides exhausted every argument by now? Play EVE if you want to support FFA PVP. It's what you got for now. If you want, then wait for AoC or try joining a team and play WAR. This whole argument was past silly a long time ago.
MMOs Played: EQ 1&2, DAoC, SWG, Planetside, WoW, GW, CoX, DDO, EVE, Vanguard, TR
Playing: WAR
Awaiting 40k Online and wishing for Battletech Online
How can you have any solidarity without "griefing" and ganking?
Who are you trying to protect yourself from?
The enemies. Who will try to kill you any way they can.
If theres no ganking, then what do you need alliance for?
In WoW a guild is basically a social club.
In EvE a corp is a means of organizing your forces and collecting taxes.
The so-called "griefing and ganking" is what makes solidarity possible, otherwise you have no enemies and no reason to stick with anybody.
There is still ganking in team PvP. Anyone not on your team can sneak up and attack you whenever they want. I don't get why it's all or nothing with you guys. No matter how much carnage there is in a games pvp system, if you aren't allowed to wtfpwn every person you see, then it's carebear? Most people don't want anarchy. If you want chaos then you'll have to settle for the crumbs the industry hands you, because it's not a model that will make anyone any money.
EDIT: should probably just delete that. Say what you want, it doesn't matter anymore. blah, blah, blah....
MMOs Played: EQ 1&2, DAoC, SWG, Planetside, WoW, GW, CoX, DDO, EVE, Vanguard, TR
Playing: WAR
Awaiting 40k Online and wishing for Battletech Online
Aye our mileage differ
What FFA PvP provides is it opens up CRIME as a profession.
You don't just kill people because of nationalistic loyalty.
You kill em because they might be carrying something valuable.
Lets say 2 mining companies live in the same system. They both have members mining 24x7, so the asteroid fields are always depleted. One mining company can push the other mining company out by attacking them, or hiring thugs to drive them out.
Gives the game more of a "business" or "mafia" flavor.
Faction PvP = Join the Army
Open PvP = Join the Mafia
What FFA PvP provides is it opens up CRIME as a profession.
You don't just kill people because of nationalistic loyalty.
You kill em because they might be carrying something valuable.
Lets say 2 mining companies live in the same system. They both have members mining 24x7, so the asteroid fields are always depleted. One mining company can push the other mining company out by attacking them, or hiring thugs to drive them out.
Gives the game more of a "business" or "mafia" flavor.
Faction PvP = Join the Army
Open PvP = Join the Mafia
Very interesting analysis. So it provides a choice, some ppl want to play like the mafia, some prefer national army type conflicts. I see no reason why the two cannot co-exist as 2 forms of pvp entertainment.
What FFA PvP provides is it opens up CRIME as a profession.
You don't just kill people because of nationalistic loyalty.
You kill em because they might be carrying something valuable.
Lets say 2 mining companies live in the same system. They both have members mining 24x7, so the asteroid fields are always depleted. One mining company can push the other mining company out by attacking them, or hiring thugs to drive them out.
Gives the game more of a "business" or "mafia" flavor.
Faction PvP = Join the Army
Open PvP = Join the Mafia
Very interesting analysis. So it provides a choice, some ppl want to play like the mafia, some prefer national army type conflicts. I see no reason why the two cannot co-exist as 2 forms of pvp entertainment.
How is the mafia not a team? They DEFINITELY have rules and guidlines about who can and cannot be killed. The mining company example is a team of people as well. None of it is anarchy or chaos.
EDIT: If this were the argument, there wouldn't be one. I say you are wanting NO RULES. Kill everyone and take their stuff. Anarchy. Survival of the fittest and victimize everyone that's weaker than you. That seems to be the mentality. Not organized crime.
MMOs Played: EQ 1&2, DAoC, SWG, Planetside, WoW, GW, CoX, DDO, EVE, Vanguard, TR
Playing: WAR
Awaiting 40k Online and wishing for Battletech Online
So we can safely say that PVPers like the game mechanics of playing against others because it provides a challenge to them. No where in that does it have to require full looting. Real PVPers love the thrill of the hunt and the fight and get their satisfaction from this. That is why the First Person Shooter genre is so popular. In the First Person Shooter Genre there are no long term consequences to your death but it is still extremely popular.
"Gankers" on the other hand are only interested in inflicting pain on other players. They are usually players who in their group are able to inflict their will upon new players. They take this position of power and abuse it. They are the reason why FFA Full Loot PVP games do not work. They are the same as the spawn campers in FPS games. Players who look for any advantage to make sure the other player can't do anything to stop them.
Like I said in my last post, FFA full loot PVP does not go along with a RPG game.
Lastly, PVP is not a huge portion of the gaming market. Competitive gaming is pretty big but it is not the same as PVP in a MMO game. Guild Wars, World of Warcraft's arenas, etc are more like Competitive gaming and not like the FFA PVP that the OP wants. Heck most of the popular FPS games are squad or team based PVP not FFA. Look at Counterstrike, Team Fortress, or any of the rainbow six games (some of the most popular FPS games) they are all based on team based "PVP" which would be more similar to RvR in a MMO game.
Anyone who honestly thinks that FFA PVP in a MMORPG is the wave of the future will be sadly disappointed.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)