I've lost hope in MMORPGs. Goodbye fellow vets

Tierce · November 2007

Originally posted by Tatum

I think what people are getting at is that a good FFA PvP game would have to be designed for FFA PvP from the beginning, rather than just tacking a FFA server onto an existing game. I've never been a big fan of FFA PvP (although I'd be interested to see a FFA MMO with a good design) but I can see where people are coming from here. It's a similar situation to any MMO that has a tacked on PvP system. Most of them are really just a PvE game with some faction vs faction or battlegrounds tacked on at the end.
I guess a realistic option would be a PvP MMO that is designed with FFA servers in mind. So, the game could be faction vs faction or realm vs realm, but because of the design, you could have FFA servers that work pretty well. Of course, that still wouldn't be the same as having an MMO thats designed specifically for FFA PvP...

This is the same opinion I have about FFA PvP. I can enjoy playing FFA PvP when the game is designed for it from the beginning, and that is the only type of ruleset the game has. What I hate are the games that are designed for PvP, but get FFA (or faction FFA) PvP thrown in at the end to keep people happy. You play on the PvP servers because you want to be able to PvP at least sometimes, but then end up getting forced into it all the time. The PvE aspects of the game aren't balanced for the FFA PvP, so it ends up being a cesspool of griefers and annoyances.

I would wager that most people who are vehemently against FFA PvP have that opinion because of experiences with games that threw FFA PvP in at the end and never designed or balanced the game for its existance. We need more games that are designed and specialized towards the different playstyles that exist amongst gamers, not games that try to cater to all of them at the same time and end up being disappointments for everybody.

Unicorns_Pwn · November 2007

Originally posted by goneglockin

The carebear gamer only amounts to a majority of anything in MMO land which they have completely hijacked for themselves. All the biggest games are PvP in one form or another. Between FPS gamers and RTS gamers alone I think carebears don't amount to shit in terms of market segment of electronic entertainment industry. Then there's whole history of mankind where games have been invented, board games, card games, sports- to pit man against a man... thousands of years of history.
Carebears won't own the MMORPG genre forever. These developers are going to tire of investing tens of millions in production costs to chug out new grind after new grind for them every year because that's the nature of carebear gaming. Grind. Max out. Get bored. Repeat in new game that plays exactly the same as the last.
PvP games offer survivability where the game needs to change little if at all to keep people playing a long, long time.
Carebears, your time as masters of MMORPG is coming to an end. You've had your chance- and everyone is bored stupid by you.

Yet another comment made with some valid argument points ruined by a lack of tact. You could make arguments for your preferred game style without having to make attacks on others and the choices they make.

Dreadlich · November 2007

Originally posted by nomolas

Originally posted by goneglockin

The carebear gamer only amounts to a majority of anything in MMO land which they have completely hijacked for themselves. All the biggest games are PvP in one form or another. Between FPS gamers and RTS gamers alone I think carebears don't amount to shit in terms of market segment of electronic entertainment industry. Then there's whole history of mankind where games have been invented, board games, card games, sports- to pit man against a man... thousands of years of history.
Carebears won't own the MMORPG genre forever. These developers are going to tire of investing tens of millions in production costs to chug out new grind after new grind for them every year because that's the nature of carebear gaming. Grind. Max out. Get bored. Repeat in new game that plays exactly the same as the last.
PvP games offer survivability where the game needs to change little if at all to keep people playing a long, long time.
Carebears, your time as masters of MMORPG is coming to an end. You've had your chance- and everyone is bored stupid by you.

Amen to that!!

Play EVE

So... Your saying the players are to blame for the lack of vision in today's MMO gaming market. That's downright brilliant! You're right, sooner or later they'll tire of taking the carebear's money and make dozens of games for the hundreds of people like you.

EDIT: While I totally disagree with Nomolas's amen, I do agree with the play EVE. If you want more FFA PVP games then go populate those that are showing success wether you like them or not. Game publishers do NOT care about the art of gaming, they care about money. Support your niche and stop blaming fellow gamers.

nomolas · November 2007

Originally posted by Dreadlich

Originally posted by nomolas

Originally posted by goneglockin

The carebear gamer only amounts to a majority of anything in MMO land which they have completely hijacked for themselves. All the biggest games are PvP in one form or another. Between FPS gamers and RTS gamers alone I think carebears don't amount to shit in terms of market segment of electronic entertainment industry. Then there's whole history of mankind where games have been invented, board games, card games, sports- to pit man against a man... thousands of years of history.
Carebears won't own the MMORPG genre forever. These developers are going to tire of investing tens of millions in production costs to chug out new grind after new grind for them every year because that's the nature of carebear gaming. Grind. Max out. Get bored. Repeat in new game that plays exactly the same as the last.
PvP games offer survivability where the game needs to change little if at all to keep people playing a long, long time.
Carebears, your time as masters of MMORPG is coming to an end. You've had your chance- and everyone is bored stupid by you.

Amen to that!!

Play EVE

So... Your saying the players are to blame for the lack of vision in today's MMO gaming market. That's downright brilliant! You're right, sooner or later they'll tire of taking the carebear's money and make dozens of games for the hundreds of people like you.

EDIT: While I totally disagree with Nomolas's amen, I do agree with the play EVE. If you want more FFA PVP games then go populate those that are showing success wether you like them or not. Game publishers do NOT care about the art of gaming, they care about money. Support your niche and stop blaming fellow gamers.

Sorry for my lack of knowdeledge , but, What is a carebear (in MMOPRGs, of course)???

Dreadlich · November 2007

Originally posted by nomolas

Originally posted by Dreadlich

Originally posted by nomolas

Originally posted by goneglockin

The carebear gamer only amounts to a majority of anything in MMO land which they have completely hijacked for themselves. All the biggest games are PvP in one form or another. Between FPS gamers and RTS gamers alone I think carebears don't amount to shit in terms of market segment of electronic entertainment industry. Then there's whole history of mankind where games have been invented, board games, card games, sports- to pit man against a man... thousands of years of history.
Carebears won't own the MMORPG genre forever. These developers are going to tire of investing tens of millions in production costs to chug out new grind after new grind for them every year because that's the nature of carebear gaming. Grind. Max out. Get bored. Repeat in new game that plays exactly the same as the last.
PvP games offer survivability where the game needs to change little if at all to keep people playing a long, long time.
Carebears, your time as masters of MMORPG is coming to an end. You've had your chance- and everyone is bored stupid by you.

Amen to that!!

Play EVE

So... Your saying the players are to blame for the lack of vision in today's MMO gaming market. That's downright brilliant! You're right, sooner or later they'll tire of taking the carebear's money and make dozens of games for the hundreds of people like you.

EDIT: While I totally disagree with Nomolas's amen, I do agree with the play EVE. If you want more FFA PVP games then go populate those that are showing success wether you like them or not. Game publishers do NOT care about the art of gaming, they care about money. Support your niche and stop blaming fellow gamers.

Sorry for my lack of knowdeledge , but, What is a carebear (in MMOPRGs, of course)???

It's a derogatory term for people that don't think FFA PVP is the coolest thing ever.

EDIT: or read here for the elitist version: http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=16698

Jupsto · November 2007

Originally posted by kemphbc

Still holding out hope for WAR, and in a recent interview they were talking about improving the world RvR and making it more significant. They also mentioned splitting the servers into different kinds, with some being entirely RvR....including the ability to kill anyone anywhere.
Death penalty probably won't be as severe as back in the olden days, but hopefully there will be some initiative for destroying the enemy around every turn.
Best throwback we can expect, I think.

WHAT? servers with world "RvR"?! thats crazy beserk! and TOTALLY original. and so not like pvp servers...

...oh wait no its EXACTLY the same a pvp servers which have been going for years.

JK-Kanosi · November 2007

Originally posted by tylerthedrui

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi

Out of those 3, only UO was built from the ground up with FFA PvP in it. So honestly, UO is the only prominent FFA PvP game there, regardless if the other games offered a FFA PvP server or not. Plus, one of the biggies for FFA is Asheron's Call: Darktide server. I think it is the sandbox model with FFA PvP thrown in is what they want. I want that too, but I won't complain about not having it while there are still games that offer it. That's like saying, "I'm too snobby to play older games that offer exactly what I want, gimmee something new to play!" "Spend tens of millions of dollars on making ME a new FFA PvP game that only a handful of people in the genre will actually play."

Remember when they laid the WoW concept on the table for the very first time?

I remember the hordes of players who said only a niche market will be interested in WoW, with it's pvp servers and instanced dungeons.

If MMORPG developers offer something new - the sheep will likely migrate to it, having found something funt o do - and hordes of new players that are interested in something other than grinding will flock to join the MMO genre.

Change is inevitable - sometimes for the worse and sometimes for the better. JK-Kanosi, you haven't been around long enough to know that.

Actually, I don't remember the WOW concept being thought of as niche like the FFA PvPer niche is. Maybe you can prove this to me. What makes you think I haven't been around long enough to know about change. Chances are, I have probably seen more in my 27 years of life than you have. I've lived in several different states and countries, have been through a war, and many tough trials in life. So don't come preaching to me about change, when you have no idea who I am or what I've been through. Now quit being ignorant and stick to what you know.

Dreadlich · November 2007

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi

Originally posted by tylerthedrui

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi

Out of those 3, only UO was built from the ground up with FFA PvP in it. So honestly, UO is the only prominent FFA PvP game there, regardless if the other games offered a FFA PvP server or not. Plus, one of the biggies for FFA is Asheron's Call: Darktide server. I think it is the sandbox model with FFA PvP thrown in is what they want. I want that too, but I won't complain about not having it while there are still games that offer it. That's like saying, "I'm too snobby to play older games that offer exactly what I want, gimmee something new to play!" "Spend tens of millions of dollars on making ME a new FFA PvP game that only a handful of people in the genre will actually play."

Remember when they laid the WoW concept on the table for the very first time?

I remember the hordes of players who said only a niche market will be interested in WoW, with it's pvp servers and instanced dungeons.

If MMORPG developers offer something new - the sheep will likely migrate to it, having found something funt o do - and hordes of new players that are interested in something other than grinding will flock to join the MMO genre.

Change is inevitable - sometimes for the worse and sometimes for the better. JK-Kanosi, you haven't been around long enough to know that.

Actually, I don't remember the WOW concept being thought of as niche like the FFA PvPer niche is. Maybe you can prove this to me. What makes you think I haven't been around long enough to know about change. Chances are, I have probably seen more in my 27 years of life than you have. I've lived in several different states and countries, have been through a war, and many tough trials in life. So don't come preaching to me about change, when you have no idea who I am or what I've been through. Now quit being ignorant and stick to what you know.

Pay no mind. The one thing I've noticed most of these FFA PVP advocates share is a total disdain for anyone that disagrees with them.

goneglockin · November 2007

Originally posted by Unicorns_Pwn

Yet another comment made with some valid argument points ruined by a lack of tact. You could make arguments for your preferred game style without having to make attacks on others and the choices they make.

The time for tact was when the divide began and as I recall carebears had a hissy fit and got their way by volume whining. That was when the genre was comprised of a few hundred thousand people at best. People who came from very specific and similar backgrounds that do not reflect mainstream society.

Now that the genre is going mainstream- PvP dominance in MMORPGs is an inevitability. It's an inevitability because people are captivated by human conflict. It's evidenced in popularity of things like competitive reality television, sports fans of all kinds, the fascinations with things like the wild west and world wars.

I don't need to be tactful anymore at all. Carebears are going to lose control of MMORPGs. They're losing it little by little every time the genre grows to outsiders who demand what the majority of society at large has proven itself to be fond of- human conflict.

Just you wait and see.

Bane82 · November 2007

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi
Originally posted by tylerthedrui
Originally posted by JK-Kanosi

Out of those 3, only UO was built from the ground up with FFA PvP in it. So honestly, UO is the only prominent FFA PvP game there, regardless if the other games offered a FFA PvP server or not. Plus, one of the biggies for FFA is Asheron's Call: Darktide server. I think it is the sandbox model with FFA PvP thrown in is what they want. I want that too, but I won't complain about not having it while there are still games that offer it. That's like saying, "I'm too snobby to play older games that offer exactly what I want, gimmee something new to play!" "Spend tens of millions of dollars on making ME a new FFA PvP game that only a handful of people in the genre will actually play."

Remember when they laid the WoW concept on the table for the very first time?

I remember the hordes of players who said only a niche market will be interested in WoW, with it's pvp servers and instanced dungeons.
If MMORPG developers offer something new - the sheep will likely migrate to it, having found something funt o do - and hordes of new players that are interested in something other than grinding will flock to join the MMO genre.
Change is inevitable - sometimes for the worse and sometimes for the better. JK-Kanosi, you haven't been around long enough to know that.

Actually, I don't remember the WOW concept being thought of as niche like the FFA PvPer niche is. Maybe you can prove this to me. What makes you think I haven't been around long enough to know about change. Chances are, I have probably seen more in my 27 years of life than you have. I've lived in several different states and countries, have been through a war, and many tough trials in life. So don't come preaching to me about change, when you have no idea who I am or what I've been through. Now quit being ignorant and stick to what you know.

Oh Snap! very well said!

Bane82 · November 2007

Originally posted by goneglockin
Originally posted by Unicorns_Pwn

Yet another comment made with some valid argument points ruined by a lack of tact. You could make arguments for your preferred game style without having to make attacks on others and the choices they make.

The time for tact was when the divide began and as I recall carebears had a hissy fit and got their way by volume whining. That was when the genre was comprised of a few hundred thousand people at best. People who came from very specific and similar backgrounds that do not reflect mainstream society.
Now that the genre is going mainstream- PvP dominance in MMORPGs is an inevitability. It's an inevitability because people are captivated by human conflict. It's evidenced in popularity of things like competitive reality television, sports fans of all kinds, the fascinations with things like the wild west and world wars.
I don't need to be tactful anymore at all. Carebears are going to lose control of MMORPGs. They're losing it little by little every time the genre grows to outsiders who demand what the majority of society at large has proven itself to be fond of- human conflict.
Just you wait and see.

Would you like us "carebears" to start wearing stars of david on our clothing so you can tell us apart fromt he rest mein fuhrer?

Symone · November 2007

Theres plenty of games out there that have barely any PVP... why would anyone who doesn't like PVP come here and flame?

Just go back to your Vanguard, LOTRO, HGL or Tabula Rasa.. theres plenty of boring and repetitve questing for you to do. I want an actual adrenaline rush from an MMO again if I am to go back to one. That just doesn't exist anymore.

JK-Kanosi · November 2007

Originally posted by tylerthedrui

Originally posted by jusomdude

Your preferences are on the unpopular side. Most people like playing games for fun... not to be stressed out by some griefer who kills them just so they get a death penalty.

They are more popular than you think. there are armies of online gamers waiting to join the MMORPG market when meaningful pvp is introduced.

The grinders are a rare breed, in the big picture. Grinders are fairly large suckers - they have too much time on their hands, and are complacent enough to eat the same crap patch after patch (new instance, etc etc).

Most wow players are dead miserable and are dying for an alternative to WoW. To state that 7 million players are content with WoW is just ridiculous. There would not be such heated emotions on MMORPG.com if everything was fine and dandy.

Getting killed again and again is not really a part of meaningful pvp. Anyways, if you suck at a game, you should die - again and again and again. However, smart players can fight back. Having an extensive PvE requirement to increase power on a character is not a good way to avoid abusive griefing. Plus, a level treadmill is not a necessity in an MMORPG. You can have RPG-style combat without the pointless levels.

Most people would agree that a player should not be stronger because they grind longer (except for that desperate part of society that wastes 350 hours of time levelling a wow character).

Won't don't you stick with the facts. Prove to us that there are armies of online gamers waiting to join the MMORPG market when meaningful PvP is introduced. In my opinion, fighting over land for your nation/faction is plenty enough reason. After all, we as a race have fought over land and far less for several millenia. Now off the top of my head, DAoC, Shadowbane, EvE, Guildwars, RF Online, Lineage II, and SWG give you a reason to PvP. Not all of those give you tangible rewards, like loot, but loot is only one form of rewards. If all you are interested in is getting loot from killing players, why don't you say so, instead of acting like you really want meaningful PvP. You don't need to lose your gear to make PvP meaningful.

I don't think that you should have to level up a character to PvP, but most PvP were done on FPS games before MMORPG's were popular. You want a RPG/FPS hybrid it seems like. Well, both Guild Wars and Fury allows you to create a character for PvP without any PvE gringing. Hell, even Planetside can offer what you want. However, I say again, there are still games with the sandbox FFA PvP mold out there. If FFA PVP is so popular and so great, how come you and the others aren't playing those games. I love PvP and can't wait for Darkfall to be released, but you don't hear me complaining about not having a game to play either. I could care less about full loot PvP, what I care most about is city building and fighting over territory. To me, that is content that never ends. No need for raids with that kind of PvP.

Bane82 · November 2007

Originally posted by Symone
Theres plenty of games out there that have barely any PVP... why would anyone who doesn't like PVP come here and flame?
Just go back to your Vanguard, LOTRO, HGL or Tabula Rasa.. theres plenty of boring and repetitve questing for you to do. I want an actual adrenaline rush from an MMO again if I am to go back to one. That just doesn't exist anymore.

What the heck are you talking about? EQ is still around, so is UO, DAoC (heck it even had an expansion even though it's been around since forever) there's EVE and a plethora of games offer PvP servers! The only difference now from before, is that now *gasp* developers have actually given players a choice to play on PvP servers or normal servers instead of mashing them all together in the same FFA PvP server.

Bane82 · November 2007

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi
Originally posted by tylerthedrui

Originally posted by jusomdude
Your preferences are on the unpopular side. Most people like playing games for fun... not to be stressed out by some griefer who kills them just so they get a death penalty.
They are more popular than you think. there are armies of online gamers waiting to join the MMORPG market when meaningful pvp is introduced.

The grinders are a rare breed, in the big picture. Grinders are fairly large suckers - they have too much time on their hands, and are complacent enough to eat the same crap patch after patch (new instance, etc etc).
Most wow players are dead miserable and are dying for an alternative to WoW. To state that 7 million players are content with WoW is just ridiculous. There would not be such heated emotions on MMORPG.com if everything was fine and dandy.

Getting killed again and again is not really a part of meaningful pvp. Anyways, if you suck at a game, you should die - again and again and again. However, smart players can fight back. Having an extensive PvE requirement to increase power on a character is not a good way to avoid abusive griefing. Plus, a level treadmill is not a necessity in an MMORPG. You can have RPG-style combat without the pointless levels.
Most people would agree that a player should not be stronger because they grind longer (except for that desperate part of society that wastes 350 hours of time levelling a wow character).
Won't don't you stick with the facts. Prove to us that there are armies of online gamers waiting to join the MMORPG market when meaningful PvP is introduced. In my opinion, fighting over land for your nation/faction is plenty enough reason. After all, we as a race have fought over land and far less for several millenia. Now off the top of my head, DAoC, Shadowbane, EvE, Guildwars, RF Online, Lineage II, and SWG give you a reason to PvP. Not all of those give you tangible rewards, like loot, but loot is only one form of rewards. If all you are interested in is getting loot from killing players, why don't you say so, instead of acting like you really want meaningful PvP. You don't need to lose your gear to make PvP meaningful.
I don't think that you should have to level up a character to PvP, but most PvP were done on FPS games before MMORPG's were popular. You want a RPG/FPS hybrid it seems like. Well, both Guild Wars and Fury allows you to create a character for PvP without any PvE gringing. Hell, even Planetside can offer what you want. However, I say again, there are still games with the sandbox FFA PvP mold out there. If FFA PVP is so popular and so great, how come you and the others aren't playing those games. I love PvP and can't wait for Darkfall to be released, but you don't hear me complaining about not having a game to play either. I could care less about full loot PvP, what I care most about is city building and fighting over territory. To me, that is content that never ends. No need for raids with that kind of PvP.

Well said, unfortunately, you will never hear them admit what they REALLY want (gank unsuspecting lowbies to sell their loot, or corpse camp because they have nothing better to do in their sad pathetic lives.)
Someone posted a link to what it seems to be the poster child of FFA PvPers, he certainly has the typical behavior of one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeEl2GE8Tfo

Dreadlich · November 2007

They want more gamers to play their type games. They blame those gamers for making their niche smaller. They ridicule those same gamers for being less "virtually" tough or aggressive. Then they blame those gamers for not wanting to associate with them.

You're really not helping your cause guys. I like all games. I'll play a good FFA PVP if they make one. I've played EVE and enjoyed it. Planetside was a big favorite (can't get the game to run now). Advocate your preference without pissing on every other format and player type.

JK-Kanosi · November 2007

Originally posted by goneglockin

Originally posted by Unicorns_Pwn

Yet another comment made with some valid argument points ruined by a lack of tact. You could make arguments for your preferred game style without having to make attacks on others and the choices they make.

The time for tact was when the divide began and as I recall carebears had a hissy fit and got their way by volume whining. That was when the genre was comprised of a few hundred thousand people at best. People who came from very specific and similar backgrounds that do not reflect mainstream society.

Now that the genre is going mainstream- PvP dominance in MMORPGs is an inevitability. It's an inevitability because people are captivated by human conflict. It's evidenced in popularity of things like competitive reality television, sports fans of all kinds, the fascinations with things like the wild west and world wars.

I don't need to be tactful anymore at all. Carebears are going to lose control of MMORPGs. They're losing it little by little every time the genre grows to outsiders who demand what the majority of society at large has proven itself to be fond of- human conflict.

Just you wait and see.

Perhaps, but have you tried looking at it from a different perspective. Such as the perspective of the majority of MMORPG players are not into competing against other human beings and would rather have fun. Competing against people in real life is hard. Depending on your field of work, it could mean you have to work out all the time, go to college, learn several languages and etc. The people who are actually competitive probably don't even play MMORPG's or even know what they are. Maybe they are too busy making themselves competitive in real life. Maybe the hardcore PvP addicts are the way they are, because they can't compete in real life. So they get their jollies off on bullying other players who play for the fun of playing with other people to conquer NPC foes to feel superior to others.

I know my perspective is a bit off, because I know I am not the only one who has done something competitive in life that the majority of the people will never ever do. But the point is that not everyone likes sports, reality television, the wild west or wars. Some people, and I bet a lot of gamers, are probably pacifists who would rather have world peace than world war. They would rather log onto a game and join a group of close friends to beat a powerful NPC boss or fend off a NPC raid than to dodge Pkers out of the city walls.

But I will wait and see, not because of this argument, but because I can't stop the clock and as long as I am following MMORPG's, I will see how the genre develops. As for me, I am hoping for a few more sandbox MMORPG's WITH some content and at least a factional PvP ruleset with city building. But just because I like that sort of game doesn't make the people who play WoW carebears, wimps, or losers. Different strokes for different folks, right? Some people want to PvE, others like to PvE w/ a side helping of PvP, and still others like little PvE w/ a lot of PvP, and then you have those that want a pure PvP game, but come to MMORPGs' because ganking people who don't like PvP is entertaining. I'll admit, I have ganked a person before and it was so fun it was scary. But logic and reason won over and I knew that if I gank somebody, I am only having fun at the expense of others. Besides, ganking isn't challenging and will only be fun for a while. When you have fun at the expense of others, one thing starts to happen. Those others leave. This is what happened with Trammel. This was the big red flag to the genre that the majority does not like gankers. You will hear from more people on these forums that DAoC is the king of PvP. I tend to agree because it offers you the ability to PvP at all levels in both battlegrounds and New Frontiers AND it offers other people the ability to just PvE or craft. Not only that, but in PvP you fight for your realm and for keeps and towers. You also have a PvP ranking system called Real Ranks and you get realm points which allow you to buy special skills that can be used in BOTH PvP and PvE. You see, fun PvP w/o looting and the game caters to everyone. I'd say the game was more of a success than UO was, but this isn't the place to discuss that.

McGrugg · November 2007

@Bane Take some time to actually read people's posts and look at it from someone else's perspective. You're not even debating anymore, you're acting like some politician dodging any words with any logic and reason, and quoting people who only cater to your opinion.

Dreadlich · November 2007

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi

Originally posted by goneglockin

Originally posted by Unicorns_Pwn

Yet another comment made with some valid argument points ruined by a lack of tact. You could make arguments for your preferred game style without having to make attacks on others and the choices they make.

The time for tact was when the divide began and as I recall carebears had a hissy fit and got their way by volume whining. That was when the genre was comprised of a few hundred thousand people at best. People who came from very specific and similar backgrounds that do not reflect mainstream society.

Now that the genre is going mainstream- PvP dominance in MMORPGs is an inevitability. It's an inevitability because people are captivated by human conflict. It's evidenced in popularity of things like competitive reality television, sports fans of all kinds, the fascinations with things like the wild west and world wars.

I don't need to be tactful anymore at all. Carebears are going to lose control of MMORPGs. They're losing it little by little every time the genre grows to outsiders who demand what the majority of society at large has proven itself to be fond of- human conflict.

Just you wait and see.

Perhaps, but have you tried looking at it from a different perspective. Such as the perspective of the majority of MMORPG players are not into competing against other human beings and would rather have fun. Competing against people in real life is hard. Depending on your field of work, it could mean you have to work out all the time, go to college, learn several languages and etc. The people who are actually competitive probably don't even play MMORPG's or even know what they are. Maybe they are too busy making themselves competitive in real life. Maybe the hardcore PvP addicts are the way they are, because they can't compete in real life. So they get their jollies off on bullying other players who play for the fun of playing with other people to conquer NPC foes to feel superior to others.

I know my perspective is a bit off, because I know I am not the only one who has done something competitive in life that the majority of the people will never ever do. But the point is that not everyone likes sports, reality television, the wild west or wars. Some people, and I bet a lot of gamers, are probably pacifists who would rather have world peace than world war. They would rather log onto a game and join a group of close friends to beat a powerful NPC boss or fend off a NPC raid than to dodge Pkers out of the city walls.

But I will wait and see, not because of this argument, but because I can't stop the clock and as long as I am following MMORPG's, I will see how the genre develops. As for me, I am hoping for a few more sandbox MMORPG's WITH some content and at least a factional PvP ruleset with city building.

Behind you in spirit, but you're getting almost as demeaning as them. Some people (like my wife and I) get so mentally fatigued dealing with life and 2 daughters that we just want to veg out. She'll play Neopets or Freecell or some other mindless game. I'll play strategy or something that lets me focus on something other than life for a while. Sometimes we like playing a lite MMO to relieve stress. We don't need people judging us to be inferior because of this.

PVP is not stress relieving to me. I love it, but it gets my blood pressure up and can be stressful at times. It's exciting, but that's not what I'm after most of the time. I usually want to relax when I play a game. So put away your e-peen and STFU.

Bane82 · November 2007

Originally posted by McGrugg
@Bane Take some time to actually read people's posts and look at it from someone else's perspective. You're not even debating anymore, you're acting like some politician dodging any words with any logic and reason, and quoting people who only cater to your opinion.

I've debated long enough, my opinion has already been read by those that read my previous posts. I honestly don't feel like reiterating myself over and over again, and as for me quoting what others have said here, if you notice, I'm showing my support for what some people have had to say, are you saying I shouldn't show my support? I wasn't aware we lived in a dictatorship where showing my support or expressing myself is a crime.

JK-Kanosi · November 2007

Originally posted by Dreadlich

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi

Originally posted by goneglockin

Originally posted by Unicorns_Pwn

Yet another comment made with some valid argument points ruined by a lack of tact. You could make arguments for your preferred game style without having to make attacks on others and the choices they make.

The time for tact was when the divide began and as I recall carebears had a hissy fit and got their way by volume whining. That was when the genre was comprised of a few hundred thousand people at best. People who came from very specific and similar backgrounds that do not reflect mainstream society.

Now that the genre is going mainstream- PvP dominance in MMORPGs is an inevitability. It's an inevitability because people are captivated by human conflict. It's evidenced in popularity of things like competitive reality television, sports fans of all kinds, the fascinations with things like the wild west and world wars.

I don't need to be tactful anymore at all. Carebears are going to lose control of MMORPGs. They're losing it little by little every time the genre grows to outsiders who demand what the majority of society at large has proven itself to be fond of- human conflict.

Just you wait and see.

Perhaps, but have you tried looking at it from a different perspective. Such as the perspective of the majority of MMORPG players are not into competing against other human beings and would rather have fun. Competing against people in real life is hard. Depending on your field of work, it could mean you have to work out all the time, go to college, learn several languages and etc. The people who are actually competitive probably don't even play MMORPG's or even know what they are. Maybe they are too busy making themselves competitive in real life. Maybe the hardcore PvP addicts are the way they are, because they can't compete in real life. So they get their jollies off on bullying other players who play for the fun of playing with other people to conquer NPC foes to feel superior to others.

I know my perspective is a bit off, because I know I am not the only one who has done something competitive in life that the majority of the people will never ever do. But the point is that not everyone likes sports, reality television, the wild west or wars. Some people, and I bet a lot of gamers, are probably pacifists who would rather have world peace than world war. They would rather log onto a game and join a group of close friends to beat a powerful NPC boss or fend off a NPC raid than to dodge Pkers out of the city walls.

But I will wait and see, not because of this argument, but because I can't stop the clock and as long as I am following MMORPG's, I will see how the genre develops. As for me, I am hoping for a few more sandbox MMORPG's WITH some content and at least a factional PvP ruleset with city building.

Behind you in spirit, but you're getting almost as demeaning as them. Some people (like my wife and I) get so mentally fatigued dealing with life and 2 daughters that we just want to veg out. She'll play Neopets or Freecell or some other mindless game. I'll play strategy or something that lets me focus on something other than life for a while. Sometimes we like playing a lite MMO to relieve stress. We don't need people judging us to be inferior because of this.

PVP is not stress relieving to me. I love it, but it gets my blood pressure up and can be stressful at times. It's exciting, but that's not what I'm after most of the time. I usually want to relax when I play a game. So put away your e-peen and STFU.

I am a person who loves philosophy and psychology. When I state another perspective, I do not do so because I hold that perspective. I for one do not hold the perspective I said as an alternative. This, some people would call being objective, not demeaning. However, tone is lost in written word and I have to depend on the readers to guide me in my writings. If one person thinks I am being demeaning, than another probably does as well. For this I apologize, because being demeaning is not my intent.

What I strive for is tolerance. This is a big world with billions of people. We as people don't always like the same things, but this doesn't mean the other person is wrong for their likes either. It is not unethical to want a different game or to have a different play style. I for one being a parent myself can symphathize with your situation. I'd go out on a limb and say that the majority of PvE gamers in the U.S. are in the same boat. They are too tired competing all day in real life to really want to compete in a game against other people.

So maybe it is a more accurate perspective to say that maybe those who are more competitive in real life are less competitive in-game since they have had their fill of competition before logging into the game, whereas a person whose life is dull may want to spice it up with a bit of virtual competition. Even still, maybe others are weak and pathetic in real life and get relief by griefing others in-game.

The point is, I support your right to choose your own play style. So I am not sure why you told me to put away my e-peen and STFU. I don't use that language with others and I don't like it used against me in return.

Dreadlich · November 2007

Originally posted by McGrugg

Originally posted by Bane82

Originally posted by McGrugg

@Bane Take some time to actually read people's posts and look at it from someone else's perspective. You're not even debating anymore, you're acting like some politician dodging any words with any logic and reason, and quoting people who only cater to your opinion.

I've debated long enough, my opinion has already been read by those that read my previous posts. I honestly don't feel like reiterating myself over and over again, and as for me quoting what others have said here, if you notice, I'm showing my support for what some people have had to say, are you saying I shouldn't show my support? I wasn't aware we lived in a dictatorship where showing my support or expressing myself is a crime.

There you go with your politician mannerisms. It's the way you've gone about quoting people and way you filter people into your way of quoting. Twist this post up as you see fit, honestly I'm done trying to get anything worth reading out of you. Maybe you need to learn what a forum is. It's a place for discussion. Discussion is not a pep rally.

GO discussion! GO! GO discussion!

EDIT: sorry, I couldn't resist.

Dreadlich · November 2007

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi

Originally posted by Dreadlich

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi

Originally posted by goneglockin

Originally posted by Unicorns_Pwn

Yet another comment made with some valid argument points ruined by a lack of tact. You could make arguments for your preferred game style without having to make attacks on others and the choices they make.