LOTRO devs; seemingly clueless about PvP?

Kuanshu · November 2007

Hello all,

I have long since quit playing LOTRO shortly after book 10 was released simply because I only found enjoyment in Monster Play as a Creep and everything else was simply boring, repetitious, and not very immersive (I played this game primarily because of the lore). Even though Monster play was poorly implimented, it had its ups and downs, but over time even it could not sustain my enthusiasm anymore, so therefore I cancelled my subscription.

I still follow the evolution of LOTRO because I am always curious about the evolution of the game. I still follow the evolution of EQ2, WoW, and Vanguard as well. I think its good to keep current on MMORPGs currently active and in development.

One thing I never understood is how seemingly obliviant the developers were concerning Monster Play; something they created and something that has gained a life of its own. With each new Book update they seem to never fail to surprise or should I say appall those who participate in Monster Play.

The causal PvE enthusiasts within the game are not pleased that Monster Play adjustments not only effect their toons in PvMP but it also effects their toons in PvE. PvE and lore will always be the bread and butter of this game and untimately will lead to its fullfillment or miserable exisistance. It is well known that the biggest gripes, whines, ranting, flaming, etc... comes from PvP. So therefore the biggest adjustments will come from Monster Play.

Early on Creeps were at a huge disadvantage and many good PvP players who participated as a Creep in Monster Play left LOTRO simply because of the constant frustration and malcontent that came along with being a Creep. Some of the main things which these developers are slow to learn is that certain facets of PvP need balance and careful scrutiny as to how such and such change will effect everything and everyone involved in the game. Each update seemingly favors one side then the other (Freeps and Creeps), as this is the ever so typical nerfing/buffing that goes hand in hand with PvP.

I could argue certain facets of Monster Play like Crowd Control, Trolls/Rangers, Fellowship Maneuvers (conjunctions)/ WarBand Maneuvers, Potions, Keeps, NPCs, Tracking, Stealth, etc...but I would rather point out that you can call this Player vs Monster Player (PvMP) and think doing so seperates it from all the negative connotations surrounding Player vs Player (PvP), but ultimately you will only realize how foolish this is over time.

I am curious who ultimately decides what is going to be implimented in Monster Play. I know Orion (developer who started with Asheron's Call) has come up with alot of ideas concerning Monster Play but he needs to get them OKd by the powers to be and even then it seems that there are others who add and take away certain things before it gets to be a part of the next update. I really think its some kind of cluster f**k, but its their game and it seems they will do with it what they please.

Seriously Turbine before you implimented PvP in Lord of the Rings you should have considered the long term impact. Now that you have, you might want to pull your heads out and realize there are players animating the Monsters (liken to your precious Heroes) and rein this beast you call Monster Play and the Ettenmoors before it gets out of hand.

Personally I am waiting and wondering when the Creeps will eventually spill out into Middle Earth, into the very lands where some casual player is innocently tending to his crops of pipeweed.

FikusOfAhazi · November 2007

Originally posted by Kuanshu
Personally I am waiting and wondering when the Creeps will eventually spill out into Middle Earth, into the very lands where some casual player is innocently tending to his crops of pipeweed.

This is the only point I saw in your whole post. Its also the the one thing that will never happen. PVP is a choice and will always be a choice. Everyone knows that FFS. Why even insinuate that?

You say the devs are doing it all wrong,(which that is debateable), but never say what it is they did wrong, why you thought it was wrong, and why more people pve'ing and pvp'ing now than 2 months ago is actually bad. Not saying you dont have any arguments..just that you didnt make any. If you want to debate why you think Turbine is doing a bad job and give some specifics..k. Saying monster play is an outta control beast that is taking over the game and ruining it and your now just waiting for monsters to control the shire Pk'ing noobs as they exit the tutorial needs some specifics to back up why you think that.

eugam · November 2007

Monsterplay was implemented very late. It was not intended to have any PvP, but a lot of people demanded it and so Turbine did the best they could do and develeoped Monsterplay.

I think they never should have done this. PvP is not a must-have feature. Besides that PvP only works well in games that where designed with PvP in mind. LOTRO is a "storytelling" mmorpg and has actually no room for PvP.

Otherwise the game has much bigger problems then Monsterplay. The game is almost unplayable. While there is lot of content to level up to 50 there is a huge problem with playing the books and the bigger group quests. I consider the books as main content and they are unplayable. You might get help from players or from your kinship, but that trivializes the content to massive boredom. I have two level 30ies and had only two exiting groups. Everything else was trivialized by high levels.

Czzarre · November 2007

I believe the best bet your going to have in LOTRO is large arenas for battles. Although in the future they may offfer something like a battleground ...but true PvP, I doubt it.

Torrential

qombi · November 2007

Why would you pick up an obvious PvE game for PvP? That boggles my mind.

Kuanshu · November 2007

Oh I know about the history of Monster Play and that implimenting it was to be more of a novelty then what it has turned out to be. I read where they had actually contemplated allowing the Creeps to enter certain high level zones, sometime in the future...imagine that

I agree with the second poster about the fact that alot of the endgame content is bugged and poorly implimented. Believe me if anyone knows about all this I do simply because I led the first raids into Helegrod on my server.

I was in the first fellowship on my server that defeated Mordirith and completed Carn Dum, which was the second fellowship in the game to do it, prolly the first to do it without exploitation. I remember all the problems Carn Dum had for a long while...did they ever address them all?

What is rather interesting is that Lord of the Rings Online has a nice setup for Battlegrounds (Helms Deep) and you guys can scoff at the PvP in LOTRO but it exists and can be really challenging. Peeps got to amuse themselves with something till AoC and WAR release...

I still cannot get over how they are allowing conjunctions against Player Characters and Monster Players...seriously who the freak gave the OK for that...LOL

Kuanshu

Cerion · November 2007

Originally posted by Kuanshu
The causal PvE enthusiasts within the game are not pleased that Monster Play adjustments not only effect their toons in PvMP but it also effects their toons in PvE. PvE and lore will always be the bread and butter of this game and untimately will lead to its fullfillment or miserable exisistance. It is well known that the biggest gripes, whines, ranting, flaming, etc... comes from PvP. So therefore the biggest adjustments will come from Monster Play.

First of all, you must NOT follow LOTRO very closely because changes to PvE were not motivated by PvMP. True there are those victims out there who have the need to feel abused and so blame the changes to PvE on PvMP, but the facts state otherwise. So I'd say you're the one who is obliviant [sic].

Early on Creeps were at a huge disadvantage and many good PvP players who participated as a Creep in Monster Play left LOTRO simply because of the constant frustration and malcontent that came along with being a Creep. Some of the main things which these developers are slow to learn is that certain facets of PvP need balance and careful scrutiny as to how such and such change will effect everything and everyone involved in the game. Each update seemingly favors one side then the other (Freeps and Creeps), as this is the ever so typical nerfing/buffing that goes hand in hand with PvP.

So it goes hand in hand with PvP? You say this is typical. Then perhaps it isn't the LOTRO Devs that are obliviant [sic], but that PvP is just damn hard to balance for any Dev team? Every PvP game I've ever experienced has had this problem. It is not unique to LOTRO.

Primarily the 'looser' rarely admits he might suck, but always blames the game for some perceived lacking. That in and of itself makes PvP hard to balance for fun. How does one balance to the lowest common denominator on both sides? Well, you can't.

I could argue certain facets of Monster Play like Crowd Control, Trolls/Rangers, Fellowship Maneuvers (conjunctions)/ WarBand Maneuvers, Potions, Keeps, NPCs, Tracking, Stealth, etc...but I would rather point out that you can call this Player vs Monster Player (PvMP) and think doing so seperates it from all the negative connotations surrounding Player vs Player (PvP), but ultimately you will only realize how foolish this is over time.

Yes, PvMP is PvP. Not sure how ths statement clarifies anything.

Seriously Turbine before you implimented PvP in Lord of the Rings you should have considered the long term impact. Now that you have, you might want to pull your heads out and realize there are players animating the Monsters (liken to your precious Heroes) and rein this beast you call Monster Play and the Ettenmoors before it gets out of hand.

Uhm, yeah, they HAVE considered the long term impact. That's why PvMP is a mini-game. That is why it is contained within one zone. That is why changes to PvMP do not effect changes in PvE. Pull their heads out? Out of what? Rein this beast in? You've posted a nice string of cliches that make absolutely no sense...

Personally I am waiting and wondering when the Creeps will eventually spill out into Middle Earth, into the very lands where some casual player is innocently tending to his crops of pipeweed.

This will never happen. In case you missed the bulliten, FFA PvP is dead, and has been dead in MMOs for many years now. FFA PvP is a sub-niche market in the niche market that is MMO PvP.

Kuanshu · November 2007

I can only follow LOTRO as per what I read on the forums; I currently do not play and I was considering re-entering the game for some amusement till AoC went live. With what I have read about Book 12 so far I will not return to LOTRO; main reason I thought about returning was because of my gf, she played her character on my account and enjoyed it. After I showed her some stuff in Age of Conan she said she could wait till then, np.

If you honestly think PvMP is the mini-game within LOTRO your kidding yourself. Not only is it a big part of the endgame in LOTRO, alot of peeps participate in Monster Play as a Creep early on as well.

The LOTRO Devs are seemingly obliviant simply because who the freak would impliment:

1) Trolls/Rangers: I was there when they were first implimented and I have to admit I have not laughed that hard in LOTRO, ever. It surely was a revolutionary idea, but seriously it was released wayyyyy tooo early and was very poorly implimented imo.

2) Tracking/Stealth: You know its bad when you allow a Hunter to destealth a warg at max range and many of the players on both sides scoff at the use of it. When players are calling it an exploit no matter how many times the actual developers say otherwise, you might want to take a good hard look at it.

3) Warband Maneuvers/Fellowship Maneuvers being useable on Freeps/Creeps has to be the most rediculous thing eva. Its almost like they are like, "Hey lets impliment this and see how it plays out". I guess if they want Monster Play to be their own little laboratory, then more power to them. All I know is that players will only tolerate so much.

I could go on and on here but I simply believe if your going to impliment some form of PvP you might as well embrace it and support it wholeheartedly.

FFA PvP is not only far from being dead it is going to play a role in the future of MMOGs. If you honestly think instanced PvP is going to replace FFA PvP you need to listen to the pleas of a great many gamers more.

Actually if you take a good look at what LOTRO is doing with Monster Play and then take it a few steps further you have the future of MMORPGs. Honestly, AI in its current state falls way short of players expectations, so until it is tweaked sufficiently PvP will be a necessary evil.

WSIMike · November 2007

Originally posted by Kuanshu

I can only follow LOTRO as per what I read on the forums; I currently do not play and I was considering re-entering the game for some amusement till AoC went live. With what I have read about Book 12 so far I will not return to LOTRO; main reason I thought about returning was because of my gf, she played her character on my account and enjoyed it. After I showed her some stuff in Age of Conan she said she could wait till then, np.
If you honestly think PvMP is the mini-game within LOTRO your kidding yourself. Not only is it a big part of the endgame in LOTRO, alot of peeps participate in Monster Play as a Creep early on as well.
Is it required to enter the Ettenmoors, at any point, to progress in the game? To complete the main storyline quests? To get to level cap? To raid? Is it part of the critical path of the game in any sense? No, No, No, No and No.
Could someone spend their entire time in LoTRO and experience everything else there is to do without ever creating a Creep or entering as a Freep? Absolutely. Thus, it's a mini-game. A "game within a game". An alternative to the main game. A fairly involved one, sure, but a mini-game nonetheless.
The LOTRO Devs are seemingly obliviant simply because who the freak would impliment:
1) Trolls/Rangers: I was there when they were first implimented and I have to admit I have not laughed that hard in LOTRO, ever. It surely was a revolutionary idea, but seriously it was released wayyyyy tooo early and was very poorly implimented imo.
And... do you believe they can't or won't fix/tweak/improve on it over time? It's just like any new feature in as dynamic a game as a MMO. There is no MMO I've ever played that implemented something perfect and without requiring tweaks/fixes after it went live.
2) Tracking/Stealth: You know its bad when you allow a Hunter to destealth a warg at max range and many of the players on both sides scoff at the use of it. When players are calling it an exploit no matter how many times the actual developers say otherwise, you might want to take a good hard look at it.
Sounds to me like Hunter's de-stealth is intended to be the scissors to the Warg's paper. Every advantageous ability should have an equally effective counter-ability; else you end up with a rather bad imbalance and an over-powered class.
And again, because they don't change it when and how the players say so does not mean it will never be changed. Devs typically require more than players' say so (which can often be subjective and self-serving in nature) before they decide how to adjust things.
3) Warband Maneuvers/Fellowship Maneuvers being useable on Freeps/Creeps has to be the most rediculous thing eva. Its almost like they are like, "Hey lets impliment this and see how it plays out". I guess if they want Monster Play to be their own little laboratory, then more power to them. All I know is that players will only tolerate so much.
News for you... *Everything* they put into a MMO is "experimental", because they don't know really how it's going to play out, be taken advantage of, or effect the game overall until they actually get 10s of thousands of players beating on it. It's called "on-going balance and tweaking" and, yes, it happens in all MMOs for the entirety of their existence.
I could go on and on here but I simply believe if your going to impliment some form of PvP you might as well embrace it and support it wholeheartedly.
Because you don't fully support the way it's implemented in LoTRO does not mean it's flawed. It means, simply, you don't fully support it. Turbine is going to work on it to make it work as well as it can in the capacity they intend it to. As has been said before, open world PvP has no place in LoTRO - at least not at this time. You can either accept that and roll with it, or decide it's not what you're looking for and move on. No one's forcing you to play the game.
FFA PvP is not only far from being dead it is going to play a role in the future of MMOGs. If you honestly think instanced PvP is going to replace FFA PvP you need to listen to the pleas of a great many gamers more.
"A great many gamers" is not as big a population as you might believe. And I think you're drawing an irrelevant connection between FFA and Instanced. Free-For-All generally means wide-open, attack anyone, anytime, often with very few restrictions. It's a type of PvP.
Instanced pertains to having a private, "exclusive" area to a single player or group of people. Which, by the way, PvMP isn't Instanced - a Freep can enter and leave the Etternmoors at will, so long as they're high enough level. A player can enter as a Creep at any time they want from the login.
And honestly, FFA PvP in the sense that many seem to believe "could work" has not worked, time and again, in any other MMO that has had it. Why? Because, no matter how great it sounds in theory, it never works out that way in practice.
Some players want to believe that "no one's gotten it right", or that it's "because carebears cry about it and the devs cave into them" (most "carebears" wouldn't go anywhere near an open PvP game in the first place).
The truth is... the downfall of it is out of the developers' hands. What keeps them from succeeding is a certain sub-group of players, basically a-holes, who abuse it and screw it up for everyone else by repeatedly corpse-camping, ganking and otherwise harassing new players for their own personal enjoyment. After a time, even the most "hardened" PvP'ers get sick of dealing with that - after all, they are still spending their real money and (often limited) time to play it. Developers have no choice but to put restrictions in place to keep those relative few people in line.

The only MMO I can think of that has had open FFA PvP and kept it is Shadowbane. And even Shadowbane's newbie experience kept new players safe from being ganked for up to their first 20 levels. But then again, how many people do you know playing Shadowbane, even at its most popular period?
It's like what was said earlier... FFA PvP is a sub-niche of a niche playstyle. It's hugely popular among those who want that playstyle. It's not hugely popular among MMO players overall. I would have thought that after years, now, of crying out for a "true hardcore, FFA PvP MMO", and not yet getting it that fact might have sunken in.

[Deleted User] · November 2007

The user and all related content has been deleted.

dragonace · November 2007

Originally posted by solareus

Rumor :
They are going to be releasing a expansion in the way COH did. Maybe something like Mordor when you can roll an evil character and then everyone meets in big , like big battles never witnessed in an mmo. The battles will rage with 500vs 500 maybe, epic stuff, that is what LotRO is about. Until we get to certain epic parts of the LotR trilogy, you can't expect Turbine to beable to make up some funky story just to fit the game. This is probably one of the first gmes that has to truely fit the story in the sense of "big battles" go.
Also you need to realize that Turbine is wearing lil ballerina slippers and dancing to the tune of the Tolkien Estate, and until the Tolkien Estate feels 100% confident in what Turbine is doing, we can expect increments in what is released .
Be well in your next game, and hopefully you will come back when the battles start up ! if the rumors hold any truth , that is

Just thought I'd clarify for those that don't visit often.

Salvatoris · November 2007

Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi

Originally posted by Kuanshu
Personally I am waiting and wondering when the Creeps will eventually spill out into Middle Earth, into the very lands where some casual player is innocently tending to his crops of pipeweed.

This is the only point I saw in your whole post. Its also the the one thing that will never happen. PVP is a choice and will always be a choice. Everyone knows that FFS. Why even insinuate that?

You say the devs are doing it all wrong,(which that is debateable), but never say what it is they did wrong, why you thought it was wrong, and why more people pve'ing and pvp'ing now than 2 months ago is actually bad. Not saying you dont have any arguments..just that you didnt make any. If you want to debate why you think Turbine is doing a bad job and give some specifics..k. Saying monster play is an outta control beast that is taking over the game and ruining it and your now just waiting for monsters to control the shire Pk'ing noobs as they exit the tutorial needs some specifics to back up why you think that.

Apparently PvP is only fun when the other guy isn't interested in it. I guess ganking the unsuspecting makes you "hardcore".....

openedge1 · November 2007

Originally posted by Salvatoris

Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi

Originally posted by Kuanshu
Personally I am waiting and wondering when the Creeps will eventually spill out into Middle Earth, into the very lands where some casual player is innocently tending to his crops of pipeweed.

This is the only point I saw in your whole post. Its also the the one thing that will never happen. PVP is a choice and will always be a choice. Everyone knows that FFS. Why even insinuate that?

You say the devs are doing it all wrong,(which that is debateable), but never say what it is they did wrong, why you thought it was wrong, and why more people pve'ing and pvp'ing now than 2 months ago is actually bad. Not saying you dont have any arguments..just that you didnt make any. If you want to debate why you think Turbine is doing a bad job and give some specifics..k. Saying monster play is an outta control beast that is taking over the game and ruining it and your now just waiting for monsters to control the shire Pk'ing noobs as they exit the tutorial needs some specifics to back up why you think that.

Apparently PvP is only fun when the other guy isn't interested in it. I guess ganking the unsuspecting makes you "hardcore".....

Choice is GOOD

FFA is BAD (Very BAD)

Kuanshu · November 2007

If you honestly think PvMP is the mini-game within LOTRO your kidding yourself. Not only is it a big part of the endgame in LOTRO, alot of peeps participate in Monster Play as a Creep early on as well.

Is it required to enter the Ettenmoors, at any point, to progress in the game? To complete the main storyline quests? To get to level cap? To raid? Is it part of the critical path of the game in any sense? No, No, No, No and No.

Could someone spend their entire time in LoTRO and experience everything else there is to do without ever creating a Creep or entering as a Freep? Absolutely. Thus, it's a mini-game. A "game within a game". An alternative to the main game. A fairly involved one, sure, but a mini-game nonetheless.

Keep telling yourself that....I would say that over 90% of players post 40th level have entered the Ettenmoors. I knew of alot on Gladden who simply played a Creep and did not have a Freep anywhere near 40th level.

Up to 40th level players are pretty much doing the same things over and over. There are two things which players participate post 40th level that are not included prior to that...RAIDING and MONSTER PLAY as a freep.

1) Trolls/Rangers: I was there when they were first implimented and I have to admit I have not laughed that hard in LOTRO, ever. It surely was a revolutionary idea, but seriously it was released wayyyyy tooo early and was very poorly implimented imo.

And... do you believe they can't or won't fix/tweak/improve on it over time? It's just like any new feature in as dynamic a game as a MMO. There is no MMO I've ever played that implemented something perfect and without requiring tweaks/fixes after it went live.

And your point is? In no way does your response address what I was trying to point out. Session Play was surprisingly introduced with the Book 10 update and Trolls/Rangers were thrown into the Ettenmoors in a very poorly implimented fashion amongst Monster Play and the Ettenmoors bugs and issues should have been addressed first, then they can do stuff like this...

If you look at the timing and how it was introduced you will see their true intentions and mindstate

2) Tracking/Stealth: You know its bad when you allow a Hunter to destealth a warg at max range and many of the players on both sides scoff at the use of it. When players are calling it an exploit no matter how many times the actual developers say otherwise, you might want to take a good hard look at it.

Sounds to me like Hunter's de-stealth is intended to be the scissors to the Warg's paper. Every advantageous ability should have an equally effective counter-ability; else you end up with a rather bad imbalance and an over-powered class.

And again, because they don't change it when and how the players say so does not mean it will never be changed. Devs typically require more than players' say so (which can often be subjective and self-serving in nature) before they decide how to adjust things.

Have you ever participated in Monster Play/Ettenmoors? Everything you are saying is very general and condescending in nature. Rock/Paper/Scissors is best left in the world where it was created. There was more then a few really good ideas concerning Hunters advanced tracking trait and Wargs Stealth(this also concerned Black Arrows and their human tracking talisman affecting human burglars). The problem you create by nullifying a wargs stealth (where alot of their attacks are initiated) at 40 yards; you literally take them out of their element...but then again what does this matter to you...

I for one have faith in the objective nature of players, much moreso then developers who are all to human in reference to the final product. You believe in who you like...all too often have I played a MMO where a certain class/template/team excelled against the rest and the community not only knew it they came up with really good ideas how to address it...all too often it fell on deaf ears

3) Warband Maneuvers/Fellowship Maneuvers being useable on Freeps/Creeps has to be the most rediculous thing eva. Its almost like they are like, "Hey lets impliment this and see how it plays out". I guess if they want Monster Play to be their own little laboratory, then more power to them. All I know is that players will only tolerate so much.

News for you... *Everything* they put into a MMO is "experimental", because they don't know really how it's going to play out, be taken advantage of, or effect the game overall until they actually get 10s of thousands of players beating on it. It's called "on-going balance and tweaking" and, yes, it happens in all MMOs for the entirety of their existence.

Here you go again....seriously if you only knew of my mmog experience you would sit back quiet and really try to understand me moreso, then simply insulting my intelligence and experience. I played LOTRO since closed beta into open beta, I was a founder and carried my 15th level toons into the official release and basically did it all and then some, finally quitting sometime in August (shortly after the release of the Book 10 update). Isengard server is the best place to preview some of this stuff...but anymore it seems it gets previewed there then pushed directly into an update.

I could go on and on here but I simply believe if your going to impliment some form of PvP you might as well embrace it and support it wholeheartedly.

Because you don't fully support the way it's implemented in LoTRO does not mean it's flawed. It means, simply, you don't fully support it. Turbine is going to work on it to make it work as well as it can in the capacity they intend it to. As has been said before, open world PvP has no place in LoTRO - at least not at this time. You can either accept that and roll with it, or decide it's not what you're looking for and move on. No one's forcing you to play the game.

Assumption and innuendo....I was speaking from the developers viewpoint...Also, I stated intitally that I do not currently play the game...

FFA PvP is not only far from being dead it is going to play a role in the future of MMOGs. If you honestly think instanced PvP is going to replace FFA PvP you need to listen to the pleas of a great many gamers more.

"A great many gamers" is not as big a population as you might believe. And I think you're drawing an irrelevant connection between FFA and Instanced. Free-For-All generally means wide-open, attack anyone, anytime, often with very few restrictions. It's a type of PvP.

Duh

Instanced pertains to having a private, "exclusive" area to a single player or group of people. Which, by the way, PvMP isn't Instanced - a Freep can enter and leave the Etternmoors at will, so long as they're high enough level. A player can enter as a Creep at any time they want from the login.

Duh

And honestly, FFA PvP in the sense that many seem to believe "could work" has not worked, time and again, in any other MMO that has had it. Why? Because, no matter how great it sounds in theory, it never works out that way in practice.

Primary reason it has not worked is because the companies introducing FFA PvP MMOs are simply not established well enough, nor have the money/coders for the long term development and usually flop. Shadowbane, Darkfall (which I consider vaporware) are such games. In the past it was mostly servers which had a FFA ruleset. The upcoming titles Age of Conan and Warhammer Online have a strong PvP flair to them and there is good reason for this...

Some players want to believe that "no one's gotten it right", or that it's "because carebears cry about it and the devs cave into them" (most "carebears" wouldn't go anywhere near an open PvP game in the first place).

They want the choice of participating in PvP or not. It has been widely debated that casual players and carebears have negatively influenced alot of MMOs

The truth is... the downfall of it is out of the developers' hands. What keeps them from succeeding is a certain sub-group of players, basically a-holes, who abuse it and screw it up for everyone else by repeatedly corpse-camping, ganking and otherwise harassing new players for their own personal enjoyment. After a time, even the most "hardened" PvP'ers get sick of dealing with that - after all, they are still spending their real money and (often limited) time to play it. Developers have no choice but to put restrictions in place to keep those relative few people in line.

Which is why you restrict FFA PvP to a certain server. Imagine the interest in a FFA PvP server in LOTRO if you could not only fight other classes, you could fight Creeps in certain areas as well.

The only MMO I can think of that has had open FFA PvP and kept it is Shadowbane. And even Shadowbane's newbie experience kept new players safe from being ganked for up to their first 20 levels. But then again, how many people do you know playing Shadowbane, even at its most popular period?

I particpated in Shadowbane closed beta and quit during it simply because the game ran like crap. They had some great ideas and many followed their development closely for years only to be greatily dissappointed. I informed them during beta that they would regret releasing Shadowbane at their current release date.

It's like what was said earlier... FFA PvP is a sub-niche of a niche playstyle. It's hugely popular among those who want that playstyle. It's not hugely popular among MMO players overall. I would have thought that after years, now, of crying out for a "true hardcore, FFA PvP MMO", and not yet getting it that fact might have sunken in.

Many of these so called FFA fanbois would be happy on a server in a decent MMO with a true FFA ruleset that did not have performance issues and had a decent community.

dragonace · November 2007

Originally posted by openedge1

Originally posted by Salvatoris

Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi

Originally posted by Kuanshu
Personally I am waiting and wondering when the Creeps will eventually spill out into Middle Earth, into the very lands where some casual player is innocently tending to his crops of pipeweed.

This is the only point I saw in your whole post. Its also the the one thing that will never happen. PVP is a choice and will always be a choice. Everyone knows that FFS. Why even insinuate that?

You say the devs are doing it all wrong,(which that is debateable), but never say what it is they did wrong, why you thought it was wrong, and why more people pve'ing and pvp'ing now than 2 months ago is actually bad. Not saying you dont have any arguments..just that you didnt make any. If you want to debate why you think Turbine is doing a bad job and give some specifics..k. Saying monster play is an outta control beast that is taking over the game and ruining it and your now just waiting for monsters to control the shire Pk'ing noobs as they exit the tutorial needs some specifics to back up why you think that.

Apparently PvP is only fun when the other guy isn't interested in it. I guess ganking the unsuspecting makes you "hardcore".....

Choice is GOOD

FFA is BAD (Very BAD)

Amen to that one! Agree whole-heartedly!

dragonace · November 2007

Originally posted by Kuanshu

....

I decided that anyone who responds with a "Duh" to answer or debate a point isn't really worth responding to on a point by point basis. So, I'll sum it all up with this.

Get over yourself!

You aren't the salvation of MMOs and you don't have an inside track to the desires of the majority of gamers. Your point of view most definitely does not represent myself or anyone in my group of friends.

Beda · November 2007

Dude, it doesn't matter about the pvp. This game is so hyped up just because it was the newest MMO out on the market. I played it for 2 weeks and thought Maplestory was actually more fun and it's a POS. It wouldn't matter. Some company could of put out Barbie Love Doll Adventure Land MMO and the guys drooling over something new to play besides WoW would be all over it saying it's the best MMO known to man. Every time I come here people are debating the same old crap. Who cares really?

Yeebo · November 2007

Actually PvMP is currently a side game in LoTRO. That's one of the criticisms it currently gets, there is no decent set of PvP rewards that compet with rading or end game crafting. In patch 12 they are adding PvMP PvP gear rewards and adding a new zone mainly because players like it more than they expected them too.

As it stands currently, PvMP is an entertaining diversion for capped characters and a fun "play a monster" mini game. It has never been billed as anything else. This would be like critcizing FF IX because that card trading mini game sucked balls (and it did, oh yes it certainly did).

LoTRO is a poor choice for a serious PvPer. Any tiny bit of research will show you that. If that's what you really want, see EVE or DAoC. If you take PvMP at face value, it's a very fun change of pace once in a while. But it's not ever going to be a game unto itself.

Why is everyone so amazed when the PvP in a game like LoTRO, WoW, or EQ isn't all it's cracked up to be? If you really want good PvP, go for a game that specializes in it and don't dick around with games designed primarily for PvE. It's common sense. You don't go to a grocery store for their amazing assortment of novels. They usually have some, but if you want a decent selection you go to a bookstore.

All that said, PvMP is the most fun I've had in PvP since I was heavy into DAoC. On the Freep or the Creep side I think it's a blast. It's like a popcorn version of RvR. Mmm, salty....but you shouldn't try to make a meal out of it.

dragonace · November 2007

Originally posted by Yeebo

Actually PvMP is currently a side game in LoTRO. That's one of the criticisms it currently gets, there is no decent set of PvP rewards that compet with rading or end game crafting. In patch 12 they are adding PvMP PvP gear rewards and adding a new zone mainly because players like it more than they expected them too.
As it stands currently, PvMP is an entertaining diversion for capped characters and a fun "play a monster" mini game. It has never been billed as anything else. This would be like critcizing FF IX because that card trading mini game sucked balls (and it did, oh yes it certainly did).
LoTRO is a poor choice for a serious PvPer. Any tiny bit of research will show you that. If that's what you really want, see EVE or DAoC. If you take PvMP at face value, it's a very fun change of pace once in a while. But it's not ever going to be a game unto itself.
Why is everyone so amazed when the PvP in a game like LoTRO, WoW, or EQ isn't all it's cracked up to be? If you really want good PvP, go for a game that specializes in it and don't dick around with games designed primarily for PvE.    It's common sense.   You don't go to a grocery store for their amazing assortment of novels. They usually have some, but if you want a decent selection you go to a bookstore.
All that said, PvMP is the most fun I've had in PvP since I was heavy into DAoC.   On the Freep or the Creep side I think it's a blast. It's like a popcorn version of RvR.   Mmm, salty....but you shouldn't try to make a meal out of it.

Now those are some great analogies there! Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Deleted User] · November 2007

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Dave08 · November 2007

Originally posted by Cerion

First of all, you must NOT follow LOTRO very closely because changes to PvE were not motivated by PvMP. True there are those victims out there who have the need to feel abused and so blame the changes to PvE on PvMP, but the facts state otherwise. So I'd say you're the one who is obliviant [sic].

I follow LOTRO closely. I've played since beta. I have a lifetime account. I've read all the threads about whether these changes were made for PVP/PVE etc.

When things are changed so drastically, with no real Pve reason (the ones listed make no sense), and you know there were PVP complaints, how can you NOT think PVP could have been a reason? Only Turbine really knows, and they will not come out and say, yes, we changed PVE for PVP because they said they never would.

Whether they did or not, I don't see how you can claim someone doesn't know LOTR when in fact this issue has been hotly debated in the LOTR forums. I don't see how you can follow LOTR and not know this is highly debated.

I personally think things were changed because there were too many hunters (it was a fun, challenging job), and Turbine wants to get people to play other classes to keep people playing (lack of content).

I don't mind balance, but I've taken a break till the game settles down.

There is nothing more frustrating than building a character to 50, making choices along the way, then with every book update, facing changes that cause you to completely rework/retool your char. Items that you worked hard for, are made useless or worse, dangerous to use.

They currently have no regard for the effort someone has put into their class. They put in buggy code and then fix some of it. If they break something for your class, you have to wait for the next book or two to get it corrected or adjusted.

Changes/balancing are expected in an MMO. I've never had a problem with change in any other MMO that I've played. But when you start dreading content updates because you know they're going to hit you with some new whacky untested, thoughtless, careless class changes is ridiculous. I play a game for fun, not constant frustration.

I don't play MP myself. I've stepped in the Moors occasionally with friends, but have never been a PVPer. But my friends who do PVP complain about the constant MP changes.

MP seems to radically swing back and forth with every update. I can certainly understand their frustration. They do play for MP, and you just never know what they are going to do next with it. Change isn't bad, but MP seems incredibly unstable. They change it without much thought, and then keep changing it back. It's like watching a ping pong match. I'd probably do more in MP if I didn't see how much my friends struggle with trying to adjust to the changes. It's supposed to be a game, not a source of unending frustration.

I agree with the OP that Turbine is seemingly clueless, not only about PVP but about PVE. They hurry to get updates in, but have no balance of quantity vs quality. Yes, I love new content. But I would rather wait a bit for well-done, decently tested updates than rushed buggy frustrating updates.

I hope Turbine gets their act together eventually. I'm a lifer. I'm going to wait till it's a bit more stable.

popinjay · November 2007

Again, Turbine didn't create LOTRO for pvp play. They made it for PvE play, with pvp as a side distraction if you got bored with the PvE content on any given day. (which doesnt happen a lot.. a LOT of quests)

If I bought Guildwars or Fury or something like that, and then after leveling out started complaining about the lack of PvE content... well, I'd be about as dumb as a bag of hammers. Its a PvP game with PvE as a distraction; or a way to just level the character up. Its not the main focus of the game. So why do people constantly buy/play PvE BASED games, and then complain about the pvp content? These sound like the same people who would go to a neo-Nazi rally and complain about the lack of diversity.

Before you continue whining about monster play, think about this... this game wasnt designed to pull in your specific dollar. You are not the target audience. When they finish the other stuff, they MAY get around to you and your needs. If thats not enough, Fury awaits.. Warhammer is coming. Go play 2moons. Go play Archlord. There is plenty of pvp stuff to do and honestly, if youre a big pvper, youre probably not much of a LOTRO type person anyways. I could care less about Lotro lore, but i LOVE PvE content and questing.. pvp is boring. The day characters drop loot and exp like mobs, then I'll start pvping. Until then, let's keep the two separate.

This 'dual focusing" is whats making a lot of games WEAK nowadays by trying to please everyone. You know what happens when you try to please everyone? You please NO one. So pvp people, please find your own stuff. Devs; please ignore this type of whining because itll water down your main focus of games.

In this game the PvE content is the show.. PvMP is the commercial. You are basically asking Turbine to play more commercials with less show time. Never gonna happen. And glad for that too.

What they really need to design, is a PvP game where the ONLY way you can level your character is to kill other people from Lvl 1. Let them hack it out amongst themselves and see just how truly boring pvp is. Then all the pvp's will understand why actually having story and questing should always be the focus. "Die hard" pvps wouldnt last 1 week in that enviroment, yet they always try to change PvE games.

WSIMike · November 2007

Originally posted by Kuanshu

If you honestly think PvMP is the mini-game within LOTRO your kidding yourself. Not only is it a big part of the endgame in LOTRO, alot of peeps participate in Monster Play as a Creep early on as well.
Is it required to enter the Ettenmoors, at any point, to progress in the game? To complete the main storyline quests? To get to level cap? To raid? Is it part of the critical path of the game in any sense? No, No, No, No and No.
Could someone spend their entire time in LoTRO and experience everything else there is to do without ever creating a Creep or entering as a Freep? Absolutely. Thus, it's a mini-game. A "game within a game". An alternative to the main game. A fairly involved one, sure, but a mini-game nonetheless.
Keep telling yourself that....I would say that over 90% of players post 40th level have entered the Ettenmoors. I knew of alot on Gladden who simply played a Creep and did not have a Freep anywhere near 40th level.
I don't have to keep telling myself anything. It's evident enough on its own. Evem if 100% of players PvMP'd, my point still stands. Read what I said again... It has nothing to do with whether people PvMP or not, the point is - they don't *have* to. It is not required to progress in the game, like say, getting levels or completing the book quests to advance the storyline. It's an optional side activity that players may choose to get involved with nor not.
Up to 40th level players are pretty much doing the same things over and over. There are two things which players participate post 40th level that are not included prior to that...RAIDING and MONSTER PLAY as a freep.
Generalization and presumption. I've known of people who haven't raided or done monsterplay, but rather focus on other aspects of the game.
1) Trolls/Rangers: I was there when they were first implimented and I have to admit I have not laughed that hard in LOTRO, ever. It surely was a revolutionary idea, but seriously it was released wayyyyy tooo early and was very poorly implimented imo.
And... do you believe they can't or won't fix/tweak/improve on it over time? It's just like any new feature in as dynamic a game as a MMO. There is no MMO I've ever played that implemented something perfect and without requiring tweaks/fixes after it went live.
And your point is? In no way does your response address what I was trying to point out. Session Play was surprisingly introduced with the Book 10 update and Trolls/Rangers were thrown into the Ettenmoors in a very poorly implimented fashion amongst Monster Play and the Ettenmoors bugs and issues should have been addressed first, then they can do stuff like this...
If you look at the timing and how it was introduced you will see their true intentions and mindstate
And, again, regardless of how or when it was implemented, it can be modified and improved over time. It's not like it's etched in stone the way it is forever. If it were, I'd see a point in griping about it. Since it isn't, I don't.
2) Tracking/Stealth: You know its bad when you allow a Hunter to destealth a warg at max range and many of the players on both sides scoff at the use of it. When players are calling it an exploit no matter how many times the actual developers say otherwise, you might want to take a good hard look at it.
Sounds to me like Hunter's de-stealth is intended to be the scissors to the Warg's paper. Every advantageous ability should have an equally effective counter-ability; else you end up with a rather bad imbalance and an over-powered class.
And again, because they don't change it when and how the players say so does not mean it will never be changed. Devs typically require more than players' say so (which can often be subjective and self-serving in nature) before they decide how to adjust things.
Have you ever participated in Monster Play/Ettenmoors? Everything you are saying is very general and condescending in nature. Rock/Paper/Scissors is best left in the world where it was created.
Rock/Paper/Scissors is a common metaphor for class balancing in all MMOs. Every class and ability has another that can counter it, or else you end up with the dreaded "overpowered class" that becomes the topic of many threads.
And how am I being condescending? Is it because you believe that many people don't request, demand or argue against changes based on how it would affect them personally?
There was more then a few really good ideas concerning Hunters advanced tracking trait and Wargs Stealth(this also concerned Black Arrows and their human tracking talisman affecting human burglars). The problem you create by nullifying a wargs stealth (where alot of their attacks are initiated) at 40 yards; you literally take them out of their element...but then again what does this matter to you...
Right... because there should always be something that will take any class out of its natural element and keep them on their toes. Or else, again, it becomes seen as an over-powered class and/or ability. This situation is present and dealt with in every MMO out there; LoTRO is no exception.
I for one have faith in the objective nature of players, much moreso then developers who are all to human in reference to the final product. You believe in who you like...all too often have I played a MMO where a certain class/template/team excelled against the rest and the community not only knew it they came up with really good ideas how to address it...all too often it fell on deaf ears
Well, then perhaps I've seen the greedy, "me, me, me" side of people come out a bit too often to share your faith in them.
3) Warband Maneuvers/Fellowship Maneuvers being useable on Freeps/Creeps has to be the most rediculous thing eva. Its almost like they are like, "Hey lets impliment this and see how it plays out". I guess if they want Monster Play to be their own little laboratory, then more power to them. All I know is that players will only tolerate so much.
News for you... *Everything* they put into a MMO is "experimental", because they don't know really how it's going to play out, be taken advantage of, or effect the game overall until they actually get 10s of thousands of players beating on it. It's called "on-going balance and tweaking" and, yes, it happens in all MMOs for the entirety of their existence.
Here you go again....seriously if you only knew of my mmog experience you would sit back quiet and really try to understand me moreso, then simply insulting my intelligence and experience. I played LOTRO since closed beta into open beta, I was a founder and carried my 15th level toons into the official release and basically did it all and then some, finally quitting sometime in August (shortly after the release of the Book 10 update). Isengard server is the best place to preview some of this stuff...but anymore it seems it gets previewed there then pushed directly into an update.
Your MMO experience and background has nothing to do with it. If you choose to take what I say that personally, then I can't help that.
If you think I'm "insulting your intelligence" with that statement, then don't take my word for it. Ask some MMO devs. Do some research on the topic. Visit some game-development websites and peruse their forums, ask questions of experienced developers. See if they claim anything I've said is at all far-fetched.
I could go on and on here but I simply believe if your going to impliment some form of PvP you might as well embrace it and support it wholeheartedly.
And you have a right to that view, just as others a right to theirs.
Because you don't fully support the way it's implemented in LoTRO does not mean it's flawed. It means, simply, you don't fully support it. Turbine is going to work on it to make it work as well as it can in the capacity they intend it to. As has been said before, open world PvP has no place in LoTRO - at least not at this time. You can either accept that and roll with it, or decide it's not what you're looking for and move on. No one's forcing you to play the game.
Assumption and innuendo....I was speaking from the developers viewpoint...Also, I stated intitally that I do not currently play the game...
How can you speak from the developers' viewpoint? Are you a developer? Are you privy to their long-term plans? I'm going to guess you're not. What I stated in that paragraph is, again, common to all MMOs. All MMOs are ever-evolving and changing. They can up and revamp an entire system if they felt it was warranted. Again, don't take my word for it, do your own research and you'll find the same holds true across the board.
At the end of the day, they're going to design, implement and adjust things as they feel is best and at the end of the day you either accept it or not. I see nothing off in that statement.
FFA PvP is not only far from being dead it is going to play a role in the future of MMOGs. If you honestly think instanced PvP is going to replace FFA PvP you need to listen to the pleas of a great many gamers more.
"A great many gamers" is not as big a population as you might believe. And I think you're drawing an irrelevant connection between FFA and Instanced. Free-For-All generally means wide-open, attack anyone, anytime, often with very few restrictions. It's a type of PvP.
Duh
Hey, you're the one who confused the terms. I was just pointing out the error and illustrating the difference.
Instanced pertains to having a private, "exclusive" area to a single player or group of people. Which, by the way, PvMP isn't Instanced - a Freep can enter and leave the Etternmoors at will, so long as they're high enough level. A player can enter as a Creep at any time they want from the login.
Again... see m y last statement.

And honestly, FFA PvP in the sense that many seem to believe "could work" has not worked, time and again, in any other MMO that has had it. Why? Because, no matter how great it sounds in theory, it never works out that way in practice.
Primary reason it has not worked is because the companies introducing FFA PvP MMOs are simply not established well enough, nor have the money/coders for the long term development and usually flop. Shadowbane, Darkfall (which I consider vaporware) are such games. In the past it was mostly servers which had a FFA ruleset. The upcoming titles Age of Conan and Warhammer Online have a strong PvP flair to them and there is good reason for this...
That's a very popular conclusion but rather flawed. If you'd like I can point you to a publication or two that discusses why. In short, it has more to do with human nature and certain people's determination to abuse a system at others' expense, and how that translates into drops in subscriptions over time.
Some players want to believe that "no one's gotten it right", or that it's "because carebears cry about it and the devs cave into them" (most "carebears" wouldn't go anywhere near an open PvP game in the first place).
They want the choice of participating in PvP or not. It has been widely debated that casual players and carebears have negatively influenced alot of MMOs
Well, I agree with you there - it's debated .
The truth is... the downfall of it is out of the developers' hands. What keeps them from succeeding is a certain sub-group of players, basically a-holes, who abuse it and screw it up for everyone else by repeatedly corpse-camping, ganking and otherwise harassing new players for their own personal enjoyment. After a time, even the most "hardened" PvP'ers get sick of dealing with that - after all, they are still spending their real money and (often limited) time to play it. Developers have no choice but to put restrictions in place to keep those relative few people in line.
Which is why you restrict FFA PvP to a certain server. Imagine the interest in a FFA PvP server in LOTRO if you could not only fight other classes, you could fight Creeps in certain areas as well.
I agree with that. A dedicated FFA server would be fine. It's amazing what people will accept when they have the choice to not participate.

The only MMO I can think of that has had open FFA PvP and kept it is Shadowbane. And even Shadowbane's newbie experience kept new players safe from being ganked for up to their first 20 levels. But then again, how many people do you know playing Shadowbane, even at its most popular period?
I particpated in Shadowbane closed beta and quit during it simply because the game ran like crap. They had some great ideas and many followed their development closely for years only to be greatily dissappointed. I informed them during beta that they would regret releasing Shadowbane at their current release date.
It's interesting, though, that there are still players to this day who refuse to play anything else, warts and all. I played SB for a bit, but was put off by the elitism of many of its community. Almost like they don't want new players... then they wonder why Wolfpack had to close down. Very odd situation there.
It's like what was said earlier... FFA PvP is a sub-niche of a niche playstyle. It's hugely popular among those who want that playstyle. It's not hugely popular among MMO players overall. I would have thought that after years, now, of crying out for a "true hardcore, FFA PvP MMO", and not yet getting it that fact might have sunken in.
Many of these so called FFA fanbois would be happy on a server in a decent MMO with a true FFA ruleset that did not have performance issues and had a decent community.
Again, I could agree with that. I don't even call them "fanbois". If you're a fan of FFA, then great. If you're not, then great, too. I think most fans of FFA PvP are good people with the "ideal" intentions and would really make the most out of that kind of setup. It's the rotten few that ruin it for the many, though and, unfortunately, it's those rotten few that the rules and restrictions tend to exist for.
I personally have never understood why some people get all outraged when the idea of servers with alternate rule sets is introduced.. like it's going to somehow taint their experience or something. -shrug- That's people for ya.

Kuanshu · November 2007

Originally posted by Dave08

Originally posted by Cerion

First of all, you must NOT follow LOTRO very closely because changes to PvE were not motivated by PvMP. True there are those victims out there who have the need to feel abused and so blame the changes to PvE on PvMP, but the facts state otherwise. So I'd say you're the one who is obliviant [sic].