Originally posted by rathma The funny thing is, the more controversial this movie gets, the more money it will rake in.
Funny you should say that. I actually mentioned that to my mother one day while watching some news coverage on whether they should censor the movie. The more they try to get rid of it, the more popular it becomes.
_____________________________________ "Io rido, e rider mio non passa dentro; Io ardo, e l'arsion mia non par di fore." -Machiavelli
Originally posted by ViolentY <Quote>[Insert everything Murt's said in this thread here]</quote> I find it ironic how you feel that these liberal's videos are bias and full of lies, when all you're doing is reading bias conservatives' articles via the internet that scarcely give citations. At least Michael Moore backs his stuff up with evidence, even if it is distorted to his bias. Think of this, Murt: What if Michael Moore was a conservative, sporting your opinions in his movies? Even if he still used the same "style" of evidence? Would you still think he's a fat moron who perverts the truth? In reply to a specific comment you made: "WHEN WILL ALL U LIBERALS OPEN UR EYES AND SEE THAT BUSH/CHENEY ISNT MAKING ANY MONEY?!?!?!!!!!!!11111oneone" [Paraphrasing] You could say the same on the other side; When will you conservative open your eyes and see that Bush and Cheney are making a fortune on this war? It's easy to make claims like that, Murt, when you don't have to put up evidence. As said in one of the very early posts, it's all a bunch of the classic "He said/She said," until someone puts up evidence--which most of you refrain from doing, seeing as you're too busy bashing Moore or Bush or Aquaman to research. I haven't even seen the movie yet, and I think it's a great movie. Any movie that can get people talking and debating serious issues is a great movie in my book. Flame away.
I can easily say Bush and Cheney aren't making a profit on this war. Their tax records are public. Now, if you are accusing them of criminal activity then you better damn well be able to bring some kind of proof to the table. The same people who don't want to see all the ties between Osama and Saddam (enough ties there is a book out now doccumenting them all), will still say things like Bush and Cheney are making money off the war without a shred of evidence to back it up.
As for bringing evidence to counter Moore, it has been done to death, but the fans of Moore just ignore the facts. Take this for example, Moore tries to make a shadey deal out of members of the Bin Laden family being tied to the Bush family. One of the ways he does this is by saying they got special treatement to leave the country early. Yet the 9/11 commission (the same one the anti-Bush types like to misquote to say there is no Osama/Saddam ties) has already investigated it and says there was no special treatment involved at all (other than the special treatment the rich can get). Almost every single member of the family who flew out after 9/11 were interviewed by the CIA, and they flew out as soon as possible, but not before anyone else could fly out.
He also tries to build up ties between the Bush family and the Carlyle Group. Yet he leaves out that this administration cut the $11 billion Crusader project. Not a very good move if they were raking in the dough from ties to this group.
He intentionally misleads the viewers, and he leaves out very important information to his topic in order to do so. It may be an entertaining film for those who like Bush bashing (the French seemed to enjoy it quite a bit), but it is only very loosely based on facts and should in no way be concidered a documentary. It is too bad that he has to resort to those tactics in order to make his points.
So Bush isn't FANATICALLY biased? Bush doesn't speak out of context, and tell half truths?
Lol, read his documented interviews on http://dubyaspeak.com/ you'll see he doesn tell half truths or lie cause he never really answers the question
I'd also like to add if you haven't seen it because you hate the "fat liberal" as someone pointed out at least look at someof the facts that he points at. They are a matter of public record and how he plays connect the dots with the names involved shows you a background story that we weren't suppose to see. And although he is definantly biased, it's not just against Bush it's agains't anyone who profits from the suffering of others. Watch his works, you'll see the pattern.
Although truth be told, I don't think Bush is evil, but he has proven himself to be less then intellegent, and honestly, I think he's more likley a puppet then the mastermind. After all he ran 3 companies into the ground, and every time he was saved it was by people who wanted access to his father while he was pres. And the sure as hell didn't put him on thier board of directors for his uncanny business sense.
Originally posted by n2sooners I can easily say Bush and Cheney aren't making a profit on this war. Their tax records are public. Now, if you are accusing them of criminal activity then you better damn well be able to bring some kind of proof to the table.
Yeah, cause they're gonna go ahead and list all the kickbacks they've gotten from Haliburton, and various oil interests, etc on their taxes. Given that that sort of thing is illegal, there really isn't going to be alot of evidence just laying around for Joe Nobody to pick up. Maybe I'm just reaaaaaaaally cynical, but when one of the cabinet members has an oil tanker named after her, and they go to war with an oil producing country, my BS detector perks up just a bit. YMMV.
And before anyone lumps me in with the Liberal dipshits, I am a registered Republican, and as for my personal views, I'm conservative enough to make that fruitcake Hannity weep.
HOWEVER, that doesn't mean I'm walking around with my fingers in my ears, head up my ass, screaming NYAH, NYAH, NYAH, and sucking up everything the Republicans, or Dems for that matter, say without giving it any thought. I still think Bush is a flaming dimwit, better relegated to trimming the shrubbery around the White House, than running the place.
And yes, if Micheal Moore made a movie called Fahrenheit 9/11 praising the war, and fellating Bush and Co., the conservative crowd would be singing it's praises as the gospel truth, no matter how biased it was, and the liberals would freak out about fascist shadow governments, and whatever tinfoil conspiracy is in favor this week.
I think Lewis Black said it best: "The Republican party is a party of bad ideas, and the Democratic party is a party of no ideas."
------- They panic, so... just hold them down I could live like this I'm closing in; hate all around I could be like this Hearing them; them in my head How can they be so sweet... sweet?
Yet you still don't back it up with any evidence. Using my BS meter, I am going to say that you are a thirteen year old, overweight teenager who is a raging liberal because his favorite teacher at school is a raging liberal. I have no evidence whatsoever to back it up, but since when did that stop anyone from saying that sort of thing?
PS. For those simple minded folk, I don't really believe that, it was just an example.
My problem with Bush is.....Hes too LIBERAL. Yes. Thats right. I said it. Hes too liberal. Which he is. Just look at alot of the crap hes been doing. Expanding government, high deficit, a war. etc. etc.
200 years ago, he would of been a raving liberal lunatic and they would of stoned him. (exaggeration about the stoning)
Got nothin against Bush, he seems to be a good guy. And I sure as ell would vote him over kerry (although its more of a lesser of two evils)
Republicans, democrats, bah. Only reason I support republicans more is because they are closer of wanting what the origins of this nation are.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didnt exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
"And although he is definantly biased, it's not just against Bush it's agains't anyone who profits from the suffering of others. Watch his works, you'll see the pattern."
So.....Wait. I just have to make this clear. His own movie....Is....Against himself?
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didnt exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
Discussion is good. Asking for truth, is good. We have minds of our own. We can watch bias, whether in movies, news or articles, and think for ourselves. How many people do that? How many just swallow whatever their government, political party etc. wants to tell them? How many would ever admit they were wrong in their views, even if it was proven to them? As human beings, we suck.
Ive seen it, and i think it is a great movie. Oh yeah, after reading some of MurtBijani's posts... i do believe he is one of those rednecks with "God Bless Bush" stickers on his truck...
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didnt exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
------- They panic, so... just hold them down I could live like this I'm closing in; hate all around I could be like this Hearing them; them in my head How can they be so sweet... sweet?
Sometimes I think Moore damages his causes more than he helps them. He's often on the right track, but there always seems to be some fundamental flaw in his logic.
To quote Eco, "...all dogs are pets, and all dogs bark, and cats are pets too, therefore cats bark." that's Michael Moore logic. If you're not paying close attention, you fall into his trap.
That said, I still like his movies. I know going in there that he's going to be unflinchingly liberal, and subsequently I try to weed through his Rush Limbaugh-esque spin to find the real truth.
But while he may not be objective, I don't think many people can argue convincingly that he makes movies about issues that do not exist.
Fahrenheit 9/11 is controversial because it's effective. Not because Moore is slanting the truth (and I have no doubt he is) but because Bush hurts himself far more by what he is caught casually saying on tape than the damage Moore tries to do with his Saudi oil conspiracy theory. Frankly, it could have been worse. I've followed Bush closely over his presidency and conservatives ought to consider themselves lucky that Moore loses focus and isn't a better researcher. Farhenheit 9/11's "shame on me" parting shot isn't the worst of Bush's on-camera bumbling by a long shot.
The conservatives have had a master propagandist in Limbaugh for years, it was only a matter of time before the liberals followed suit - but ultimately, Bush made his own bed.
"I find it ironic how you feel that these liberal's videos are bias and full of lies, when all you're doing is reading bias conservatives' articles via the internet that scarcely give citations."
Yeah I see your point. Here's an article from a well known conservative.
Unfairenheit 9/11 The lies of Michael Moore. By Christopher Hitchens
To describe this film as dishonest and demagogic would almost be to promote those terms to the level of respectability. To describe this film as a piece of crap would be to run the risk of a discourse that would never again rise above the excremental. To describe it as an exercise in facile crowd-pleasing would be too obvious. Fahrenheit 9/11 is a sinister exercise in moral frivolity, crudely disguised as an exercise in seriousness. It is also a spectacle of abject political cowardice masking itself as a demonstration of "dissenting" bravery.
i think he is nice cuz i like conservatives and his victims frowning and get annoyed as hell yet unable to do anything plus some stuff he does are funny,6 such as the bill gates episode
Shit i'm bad... I self educated myself in ways of controlling feelings, now nothing feels like it's true... gotta be an assasin or sumtin.
And John Kerry can provide that for this country! He breaks the mold of the average slandering politician, and gives the people what they need--even if it's not what they want!
Democrats, bah! Hellspawn! Republicans! About as bad, still too liberal and their own agenda's for me!
What we need is a libertarian! Fanatical conservative! Bring back to the roots of this country and make it great again!
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didnt exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
Comments
_____________________________________
"Io rido, e rider mio non passa dentro;
Io ardo, e l'arsion mia non par di fore."
-Machiavelli
I can easily say Bush and Cheney aren't making a profit on this war. Their tax records are public. Now, if you are accusing them of criminal activity then you better damn well be able to bring some kind of proof to the table. The same people who don't want to see all the ties between Osama and Saddam (enough ties there is a book out now doccumenting them all), will still say things like Bush and Cheney are making money off the war without a shred of evidence to back it up.
As for bringing evidence to counter Moore, it has been done to death, but the fans of Moore just ignore the facts. Take this for example, Moore tries to make a shadey deal out of members of the Bin Laden family being tied to the Bush family. One of the ways he does this is by saying they got special treatement to leave the country early. Yet the 9/11 commission (the same one the anti-Bush types like to misquote to say there is no Osama/Saddam ties) has already investigated it and says there was no special treatment involved at all (other than the special treatment the rich can get). Almost every single member of the family who flew out after 9/11 were interviewed by the CIA, and they flew out as soon as possible, but not before anyone else could fly out.
He also tries to build up ties between the Bush family and the Carlyle Group. Yet he leaves out that this administration cut the $11 billion Crusader project. Not a very good move if they were raking in the dough from ties to this group.
He intentionally misleads the viewers, and he leaves out very important information to his topic in order to do so. It may be an entertaining film for those who like Bush bashing (the French seemed to enjoy it quite a bit), but it is only very loosely based on facts and should in no way be concidered a documentary. It is too bad that he has to resort to those tactics in order to make his points.
Lol, read his documented interviews on http://dubyaspeak.com/ you'll see he doesn tell half truths or lie cause he never really answers the question
I'd also like to add if you haven't seen it because you hate the "fat liberal" as someone pointed out at least look at someof the facts that he points at. They are a matter of public record and how he plays connect the dots with the names involved shows you a background story that we weren't suppose to see. And although he is definantly biased, it's not just against Bush it's agains't anyone who profits from the suffering of others. Watch his works, you'll see the pattern.
Although truth be told, I don't think Bush is evil, but he has proven himself to be less then intellegent, and honestly, I think he's more likley a puppet then the mastermind. After all he ran 3 companies into the ground, and every time he was saved it was by people who wanted access to his father while he was pres. And the sure as hell didn't put him on thier board of directors for his uncanny business sense.
Yeah, cause they're gonna go ahead and list all the kickbacks they've gotten from Haliburton, and various oil interests, etc on their taxes. Given that that sort of thing is illegal, there really isn't going to be alot of evidence just laying around for Joe Nobody to pick up. Maybe I'm just reaaaaaaaally cynical, but when one of the cabinet members has an oil tanker named after her, and they go to war with an oil producing country, my BS detector perks up just a bit. YMMV.
And before anyone lumps me in with the Liberal dipshits, I am a registered Republican, and as for my personal views, I'm conservative enough to make that fruitcake Hannity weep.
HOWEVER, that doesn't mean I'm walking around with my fingers in my ears, head up my ass, screaming NYAH, NYAH, NYAH, and sucking up everything the Republicans, or Dems for that matter, say without giving it any thought. I still think Bush is a flaming dimwit, better relegated to trimming the shrubbery around the White House, than running the place.
And yes, if Micheal Moore made a movie called Fahrenheit 9/11 praising the war, and fellating Bush and Co., the conservative crowd would be singing it's praises as the gospel truth, no matter how biased it was, and the liberals would freak out about fascist shadow governments, and whatever tinfoil conspiracy is in favor this week.
I think Lewis Black said it best: "The Republican party is a party of bad ideas, and the Democratic party is a party of no ideas."
-------
They panic, so... just hold them down
I could live like this
I'm closing in; hate all around
I could be like this
Hearing them; them in my head
How can they be so sweet... sweet?
Yet you still don't back it up with any evidence. Using my BS meter, I am going to say that you are a thirteen year old, overweight teenager who is a raging liberal because his favorite teacher at school is a raging liberal. I have no evidence whatsoever to back it up, but since when did that stop anyone from saying that sort of thing?
PS. For those simple minded folk, I don't really believe that, it was just an example.
My problem with Bush is.....Hes too LIBERAL. Yes. Thats right. I said it. Hes too liberal. Which he is. Just look at alot of the crap hes been doing. Expanding government, high deficit, a war. etc. etc.
200 years ago, he would of been a raving liberal lunatic and they would of stoned him. (exaggeration about the stoning)
Got nothin against Bush, he seems to be a good guy. And I sure as ell would vote him over kerry (although its more of a lesser of two evils)
Republicans, democrats, bah. Only reason I support republicans more is because they are closer of wanting what the origins of this nation are.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didnt exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
intel sucks even with their 3.6
Imperium Acranum rapped me
"And although he is definantly biased, it's not just against Bush it's agains't anyone who profits from the suffering of others. Watch his works, you'll see the pattern."
So.....Wait. I just have to make this clear. His own movie....Is....Against himself?
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didnt exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
Have not seen it.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didnt exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
Republican: "I've got a really BAD idea!"
Democrat: "And I can make it shittier!"
-------
They panic, so... just hold them down
I could live like this
I'm closing in; hate all around
I could be like this
Hearing them; them in my head
How can they be so sweet... sweet?
Sometimes I think Moore damages his causes more than he helps them. He's often on the right track, but there always seems to be some fundamental flaw in his logic.
To quote Eco, "...all dogs are pets, and all dogs bark, and cats are pets too, therefore cats bark." that's Michael Moore logic. If you're not paying close attention, you fall into his trap.
That said, I still like his movies. I know going in there that he's going to be unflinchingly liberal, and subsequently I try to weed through his Rush Limbaugh-esque spin to find the real truth.
But while he may not be objective, I don't think many people can argue convincingly that he makes movies about issues that do not exist.
Fahrenheit 9/11 is controversial because it's effective. Not because Moore is slanting the truth (and I have no doubt he is) but because Bush hurts himself far more by what he is caught casually saying on tape than the damage Moore tries to do with his Saudi oil conspiracy theory. Frankly, it could have been worse. I've followed Bush closely over his presidency and conservatives ought to consider themselves lucky that Moore loses focus and isn't a better researcher. Farhenheit 9/11's "shame on me" parting shot isn't the worst of Bush's on-camera bumbling by a long shot.
The conservatives have had a master propagandist in Limbaugh for years, it was only a matter of time before the liberals followed suit - but ultimately, Bush made his own bed.
Hehe, breakdown of the word Politic.
Poli means many, tic means blood sucking creatures.
サ ー ス ベ ン
_____________________________________
"Io rido, e rider mio non passa dentro;
Io ardo, e l'arsion mia non par di fore."
-Machiavelli
"I find it ironic how you feel that these liberal's videos are bias and full of lies, when all you're doing is reading bias conservatives' articles via the internet that scarcely give citations."
Yeah I see your point. Here's an article from a well known conservative.
Unfairenheit 9/11
The lies of Michael Moore.
By Christopher Hitchens
http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723/
~snip~
To describe this film as dishonest and demagogic would almost be to promote those terms to the level of respectability. To describe this film as a piece of crap would be to run the risk of a discourse that would never again rise above the excremental. To describe it as an exercise in facile crowd-pleasing would be too obvious. Fahrenheit 9/11 is a sinister exercise in moral frivolity, crudely disguised as an exercise in seriousness. It is also a spectacle of abject political cowardice masking itself as a demonstration of "dissenting" bravery.
Shit i'm bad... I self educated myself in ways of controlling feelings, now nothing feels like it's true... gotta be an assasin or sumtin.
-----------------------
....must ....play .....WoW
Politics - The deciding of one person for people under his power... well I mean if thats what you think it should mean. Whatever gets me elected
We need a real person
And John Kerry can provide that for this country! He breaks the mold of the average slandering politician, and gives the people what they need--even if it's not what they want!
Er...I mean...uh...I changed my mind. Vote Kerry!
I'm a democrat... but Kerry? Why choose Kerry? I like that one guy that everyone seemed to hate... what was his name form the dem primaries?
I'll be voting for the 3rd party... I don't care who it will be jsut to go opposite the two evils.
Democrats, bah! Hellspawn! Republicans! About as bad, still too liberal and their own agenda's for me!
What we need is a libertarian! Fanatical conservative! Bring back to the roots of this country and make it great again!
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didnt exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979