“We burned out some quantity of our beta-testers when the game wasn’t yet fun," he said, adding, "As we’ve begun to sell the game, the people who hadn’t participated in the beta became our fast early-adopters.”[/quote]
Nah - what they did was suck all the fun out of the game with a series of widely swinging attempts to balance things while ignoring the concerns of the beta community. Before they introduced weapon over-heating/jamming, armou decay, and the death penalty the game rocked and was an incredible amount of fun. Afterwards it became such a frustrating experience that it became harder and hardre to log on, let alone sink 12 hours into a major Bane gankfest.
Hell, it was on the strength of the initial experience that I pre-ordered, and was really looking forward to live, then all the fun vanished overnight.
If they'd listened to the concerns of the beta community instead of blindly rushing headlong into oblivion TR would be a gem.
That would work, if it was the bugs that were the issue. The problem was never bugs, it was that the core gameplay was dull, repetitive, and ultimately shallow.
The TR beta (closed and open both) was a very frustrating experience, because the devs didn't really listen to anything, or so it seemed. I filed close to 300 unique bugs, and hardly ever saw any fixed over the months I played. A lot of them are still in live, or so I hear. And yes, the core gameplay was something I had reservations about after only 2 days of play (level 11).
I've been in PotBS beta for a while now, and there is SUCH a difference, it's an example to how a beta should be. Live GMs on 24/7, actively announcing their presence, and there to help investigate bugs, developers who actually DISCUSS things extensively on the forums, feedback forms after missions, so you can pass on likes/dislikes.... even if you don't like the game (which I do, to my surprise), you have to admire the sheer effort.
I think it's not a bad thing to consider open beta a bit of a marketing tool. Primarily, however, it should be about testing server loads, and dealing with anything that's observed to cause lag at a near-normal population. Core game mechanics and missions should be DONE at that time. In TR, however, they did MASSIVE balancing passes in open beta, while they still had major bugs to deal with AND core game elements (logos, player skills) to implement... complaining about negative reactions after that is a wee bit stupid. If you're not near-ready for live, don't go open beta.
to Linna: I think that very well sums up what beta testing is supposed to be like, and what I try and expect when putting my own time into testing and finding bugs.
In TR, however, they did MASSIVE balancing passes in open beta, while they still had major bugs to deal with AND core game elements (logos, player skills) to implement... complaining about negative reactions after that is a wee bit stupid. If you're not near-ready for live, don't go open beta. Linna
And I think this sums up pretty well the real issue...inviting too many people into an unfinished game. I remember joining the LotRO closed beta a few months before release and was amazed at how polished the game was at that time (i had low expectations from previous bad experiences)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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I am neither a fan boi or a troll. I was one of the beta tester, and I actually have experience as a beta tester. I am probably one of the tester he is talking about.
I expected a buggy game, I though we were invited to play the game and find out where the coding errors were. Here's an example: the mission was to blow up 4 big guns. The quest would not update after the first gun was blown up, after a few tries I found that the 4th gun was registering as the 1st gun and the 1st gun was not registering at al. I filed a bug report and went on to play. The bug wasn't fixed, but then the nerf bat was swung, armor and weapons degrade, but the repair mechanism wasn't in place yet. I even posted on the forums suggesting a little perspective, "bug swatter before nerf bat."
The bat still swung and the swatter was not used. I stopped playing.
I kept an eye on the forums to see what bugs were fixed, and all I saw was the cost of ammo go up and other assorted nerfs.
Giving Garriott the benefit of doubt, I will say that marketing killed the game. On the other hand him giving an interview and blaming us neither solves the problem nor prevents it from happening again.
I decided not to purchase that game, and made my recommendation to my friends based on the fact that they nerfed when the should have fixed.
When I talk about my experience as a beta tester I don't talk about bugs, I knew there were going to be bugs, I talk about how they were constantly nerfing the game and not fixing those bugs.
Boy do I feel bad after reading Linna's post. I was one of those ship-skipping players Garriot talked about. True to life, I never filled a bug report and posted on the forums once or twice to the chagrin of long time COH members in the beta I verbally jostled with. My main fault with the system was the combat, too streamlined for my liking. My first inclination was to shuffle through the settings for a way to turn off the auto aim feature. After a few hours I managed to get out of the starter zone but performance issues with my rig, an issue TR is blameless for, prevented me from going further.
I do wish this title and all those with it market success and I'm saddened to see the lingering negative stigma undeserved.
I am slightly more optimistic about TR. I really enjoy the game yet I don't play it like an addict. I find myself running out EVE for a few hours and then jumping on to TR for an hour or so. I think the game has huge potential and in some ways if they allowed open PvP to fight for and build new bases the game could be truly special. I decided not to purchase this game due to the gamers flaming on about how bad beta was. However I took the chance and I now I really wont bother listening to anyone until I have tried the game for myself since I think a lot didn't even have a clue or seemed to be playing a completely different game. Its fun, pretty stable on launch and if they develop it right, will be around for a long time. Did Beta testers hurt this game? Yes they did but I feel Sci-Fi fans like me will eventually come around to it.
I do agree on the having to many beta testers kind of screwed them over a bit. I mean heard nothing but negative things from most 70% of the beta testers who posted, and it got to the point where i was'nt going to buy the game. But i ended up buying the game any way, and im glad i did.
______________________________ Currently Playing: Tabula Rasa Waiting to play: Aion Games played: Lineage, Lineage 2, WoW, Guild Wars, City of Heroes, Archlord, Espa Grenada ______________________________ System Specs: Windows Vista Home Premium (x64) AMD X2 5200 (OC-2.8ghz) 4gb Corsair XMS2 ddr2-800 mem. Crossfire 2 x (ATI 2600xt HD)
Originally posted by phluux One thing that bugs me though and that's how he points his finger at the development team. Hell, HIS name is on the freakin' box... its part of the title of the game! If he's going to put his name on the box to help gain brand recognition, he needs to step up to the plate and accept part of the blame through the development process. I was torn whether to buy this game or not because I think Garriot is an ancient dinosaur in the gaming world and an egomaniac to add to it... this just reinforces my opinion even more.
Agreed. That article just sounds like someone foisting off the blame for lackluster sales of TR. And that is definitely what is being said in spite of some people claiming the servers are packed. It will be amusing to see the NCSoft quarterly report.
Really good games sell themselves. It doesn't matter how many beta-testers you had. Garriott seems to think the word of mouth will make the sales of TR improve. Another sign of his inability to grasp reality. TR has been constantly getting mixed reviews, not just from people in the beta but people playing the current version. Some people say the game is great, others say it stinks. The more reasonable review articles tend to be of the general tone that 'It's okay".
"It's okay" doesn't lead to a word of mouth campaign and bring in new players. TR will be a niche game, just like Garriott's UO and NCSoft will be asking why it took 6 years to develop and cost them millions.
"It's okay" doesn't lead to a word of mouth campaign and bring in new players. TR will be a niche game, just like Garriott's UO and NCSoft will be asking why it took 6 years to develop and cost them millions.
I agree the game is ok, and its fun, if your looking for a WoW killer look else where. Im playing TR to hold me over for Aion, but again i think TR is'nt spectacular or bad at all. Its a fun game, and it has its good moments, as the previous poster said its a niche game.
Overall i would definately say TR is just a little above an average game, i'd give it a 3/5.
______________________________ Currently Playing: Tabula Rasa Waiting to play: Aion Games played: Lineage, Lineage 2, WoW, Guild Wars, City of Heroes, Archlord, Espa Grenada ______________________________ System Specs: Windows Vista Home Premium (x64) AMD X2 5200 (OC-2.8ghz) 4gb Corsair XMS2 ddr2-800 mem. Crossfire 2 x (ATI 2600xt HD)
That would work, if it was the bugs that were the issue. The problem was never bugs, it was that the core gameplay was dull, repetitive, and ultimately shallow.
Nailed it!
I was never in the beta, only managed to play the game till about lvl 10, gave up cause it was too boring and lacked any atmosphere, or at least likeable characters or setting.
Gave account to a friend, he quit at level 21.
I tried to interest the crowds that play games at the cybercafe I manage, there were NOONE who wanted to play it (we have a place with 35 PCs, busy all day and night, mostly WoW players, many in search of a new MMO to pass the time).
Sorry Mr. British, you can kid yourself about beta all you like, but your game just isn't FUN to most people.
What Richard's saying is they viewed beta testing as a marketing vehicle, meant to drum up interest in the game, and as such it probably drove away as many folks as it encouraged due to their incorrect perception of the game.
Whilst I largely agree with what your saying.... There is no such thing as an incorrect perception in relation to a game. Your perception is your perception, nothing more.
Even finished products like movies gain or suffer from perception, I really liked 300. A guy at my work reckons its thw worst movie hes ever seen. Who is right ?
Given Richard's extensive experience he should have known that 95% of beta testers are not. By that I mean 99% of the people who enter betas these days do so in order to decide if they want to shell out for the game, not to assist with testing. I probably exagerated a bit with 95%..... its probably more like 99.99%
So why would he be surprised that these people saw a lemon and shopped accordingly.
The simple fact is (as much as it burns the fanbois). The game is a very average product and even subscribers would be highly unlikely to run it beyond 3 months. I predicted a 12 to 18 month life span for this product, I remain convinced thats about right.
As George Bush said.... "fool me once, shame on...... um..... me ?, fool me twice..... um ....um..."
Point being..... you cant win if you make a bad game. You show people early you kill your sales, you dont show them, they suspect correctly that your game sux and it kills your sales.
Best option..... make a good game....
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I have to aggree with you there. I used to go for closed early beta testing stages, to report and post up bugs and screenshots in order to help them. Aye many bugs, server wipes and all, were to be expected but the latest games don't even take into account half the bugs that are reported. In fact half the time you posted info, it was deleted and they would press on with these still in the game. Thesedays i go for late stage beta's now, one were its not far off being released so what you see is going to be pretty much what you get (bugs and problems included so you know whats comming).
Having said that, Tabula Rasa did change quite alot in its quick run up to release, however the game just wasnt my sort of gameplay for an online monthly subscripted game. Is why i did not buy it. It had something lacking in its gameplay, like addictiveness. But thats just me, others will have a differant opinion. Like you said, you loved the film 300, i thought it was watchable but nothing like all the hype about it.
He should go back and look at his older game, Ultima, now that was great to play, especially from Ultima III Exodus, though to Ultima VII. Thats were he made his name and if he can come up with something that had that sort of gameplay addictiveness and fun then he would be on another cracker. To blame the testers is wrong.
IHe should go back and look at his older game, Ultima, now that was great to play, especially from Ultima III Exodus, though to Ultima VII. Thats were he made his name and if he can come up with something that had that sort of gameplay addictiveness and fun then he would be on another cracker. To blame the testers is wrong.
Exactly mate!
I played UO for 6 years. I played all the Ultima games. To me Garriot was a god until recently.
I really thought he would have learned from his involvement with Origin and EA that you need to follow your gut when you have as much talent as he does.
The TR we have is not the TR that he described and THAT is why I find it difficult to listen to him making excuses. He had a vision, he should have stuck to it instead of trying to gain popularity by making decisions that attempted to second guess what people want.
People rarely know what they want until it is presented to them. The games industry is so classic of this. Some of the best titles have come out of left field with little fanfare. Someone's vision made real.
Ita a damn shame.
On the other hand I played the beta releases of Call of Duty 4 and Crysis recently and pre-ordered collectors editions of both. It works contingent only on the premise of your game not sucking.
Sorry Dick.... I love ya..... but you blew it baby.
+-+-+-+-+-+ "MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol" http://purepwnage.com -+-+-+-+-+-+ "Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
Originally posted by ThompsonSub If pretty asinine to go around telling everyone that you are going to put out the "end all" of MMORPGs that will be a WoW killer and revolutionize the industry and then end up with a shallow single player console game at the end of the day. It wasn't us testers that hurt your game, RG, it was too much hype and not enough sweat on your part.
And people posting lies like this dont help either. I havent seens a single quote where they have claimed to be making a WOW killer or the 'end all' of MMORPG's. In fact the opposite - I have seen quotes saying they had no intention of making a wow killer.
maybe garriot thinks tabula rasa will be a blockbuster like his ultima online and thats the reason why he starts whining
tabula rasa dont have enough innovation to be better then other standard mmorpgs. like many others i have played the beta, the game dont knocked me out of the socks. perhabs tabula rasa should be released 2-3 years earlier to be a big seller.
If pretty asinine to go around telling everyone that you are going to put out the "end all" of MMORPGs that will be a WoW killer and revolutionize the industry and then end up with a shallow single player console game at the end of the day.
It wasn't us testers that hurt your game, RG, it was too much hype and not enough sweat on your part.
And people posting lies like this dont help either. I havent seens a single quote where they have claimed to be making a WOW killer or the 'end all' of MMORPG's. In fact the opposite - I have seen quotes saying they had no intention of making a wow killer.
One reason a lot of us are severely disappointed with Tabula Rasa is the difference between what was hyped to be in 2004, and what it became:
Player housing, player-to-player teleportation, decoration, full character customisation, no armor but clothing with enhancement slots... that game sounded REALLY interesting, even if it did border on fantasy in some respects.
One trend throughout the articles and interviews over the years, is that Garriott was continuously stressing how TR would break the mold, do things different, etc. He didn't always say 'revolutionise', but it's often implied, very clearly so in this interview
On the whole, I think TR doesn't deliver on a lot of what it promised. All this stuff about ethical quests and their impacts (I've seen 2 or 3, but never noticed an impact), dynamic battlefields (hmm... mobs were already attacking each other without you being there in SWG, and that was in 2003)... meh.
That would work, if it was the bugs that were the issue. The problem was never bugs, it was that the core gameplay was dull, repetitive, and ultimately shallow.
Nailed it!
I was never in the beta, only managed to play the game till about lvl 10, gave up cause it was too boring and lacked any atmosphere, or at least likeable characters or setting.
Gave account to a friend, he quit at level 21.
I tried to interest the crowds that play games at the cybercafe I manage, there were NOONE who wanted to play it (we have a place with 35 PCs, busy all day and night, mostly WoW players, many in search of a new MMO to pass the time).
Sorry Mr. British, you can kid yourself about beta all you like, but your game just isn't FUN to most people.
Yep...pretty much sad to say, I'm glad I did the Trial and not forked over 50.00 bucks for this. The thing is he was given a Scrooge Mcduck sized bank account and years to develop this and this was the best he could do...it's really a Modern day Dikatanna story. I understand that he has plans to ad a couple mechs as being playable, but that should have been included at launch at the very least along with a quest system that didn't put you to sleep, a Space game ala SWG with more of a Buck Rogers Flare would have gone a long way to keep this game out of the shit bin...but adding stuff like this as an after thought never works, the game had it's shot failed and will chug along with a handful of true believers.
I was in the first beta stage all the way till the end and as far as games i beta tested the beta for this game went along smoothly, except for memory errors (which i barely experienced myself) and adjusting ingame items and quests (when i started playing the quests/missions for lvl 20+) was nearly non-existant. I also played when the beginning gun was bugged and could insta-kill most mobs out there (i used that to level through the game quite quickly)
I found the game lacking as far as character creation and customization, and i didnt feel like i was really in the story.
Im in a gaming group in rl a rather large one, and one of our members was a developer for the game, even with our communication with him, the game still didnt change anything the mass suggested really.
Im with everyone else, id really like to see a real bonafied sci-fi game to play again, im so tired of fantasy. I want the feeling the original AO gave me, i want gameplay like AC 1. Im so tired of what mmorpgs have become im almost about to just give up and take on a new hobby.
In summary, it was NOT the bugs, which any real beta tester will expect; it was the game. The things that were most appealing about the game were being removed or nerfed, which made the game less fun. The last few patches also made it quite obvious that getting the first 20 levels relatively bug-free before launch was all they really cared about. As the 1-25 review points out, the game is still getting major bugs worked out in the higher level areas. Perhaps if they had used their testers to test the game instead of simply to report the 10,000 places where it was possible to get stuck in the Concordia Wilderness terrain, the closed beta testers would have picked up the game. Instead the people who came in AFTER they hit the FUN with the nerf bat (and then beat it to make sure it didn't try to get back up) are the ones who find the game enjoyable because they have no idea how much fun the game could have and should have been.
Thank you, starbead. I couldn't have said it better myself.
TR is not a 'bad' game or a 'great' game. Personally I find it fun but as usual others will disagree. What I am excited about is the future of TR. The game for me was stable at launch and I still yet to see any obvious flaws. The only real issue I will have with TR is probably clearing out all the maps and instances and then looking for more. However thats to be expected. If they develop TR right and introduce mech's and possibly PvP over bases then this game will have a very long future.
For those that play imagine defending a base against players and not the Bane....
Originally posted by johndmes In other words, he feels they invited too many people too soon, when the game was still buggy, resulting in lesser sales, from people that got a bad impression.
He is absolutly correct too, I was a former beta tester that was looking forward to this game and when I got my hands on it I was turned off almost immediately. I tried to like it really did but I just could not since to ME it was not fun at all and had no upside that I could see either.
I also have a hard time believing it is any better now, and attribute the people saying good things about it people just being plum crazy nowadays.. I mean seriously there were people that said good things about DarknLight and Roma Victor while the majority said it was a crap fest and I concur. So this is basicly how I see this game still today since I had first hand knowledge of how bad it is.
------------------------------ You see, every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with their surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You spread to an area, and you multiply, and you multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet.-Mr.Smith
I haven't read all the comments after the first page, so someone may have beaten me to this point, but there was a comment on the first page that struck me as particularly insightful: that it's probably NOT a good idea to consider your beta testing as part of your marketing.
I think that's why there are NDAs. Testersare supposed to be eyes and ears and hands of the dev team in the world to find the seams and bugs and report them. Secondarily, you're there to evaluate the gameplay itself.
Anytime you invite outsiders behind the curtain, you're taking a risk, and having a large beta population probably increases that risk. Some of your beta testers are going to not carry their weight, are going to spend too much time playing and not enough testing. When I was in beta3 for SWG, I'd stop fighting if I found a bug. I spent a lot of time doing really mundane things to see what would happen and report that thing either via the ingame system or on the forum.
I dare say that there is a desire to create word of mouth buzz well before release via beta testers, and that may have backfired on TR, if you've got too many testers, you're going to be drowned in data and it might just overwhelm you. Then again, some of the testers may not actually be testing, and not making the contribution that you're anticipating.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
I do software development professionally; our programs sell for $200,000 to $1,000,000 a copy. A typical large customer will buy $100 million over a 3 year contract (chip design s/w). We always do a beta test before full release, but a new thing has cropped up in the last few years: "early access". So now it goes:
- R/D testing -- also called "unit testing". This is where you specifically test features. If the user does X, the program is supposed to do Y. So, test X and look for Y.
- Alpha testing -- this lets small numbers of internal people test the program in a more real sense. For us, it means running chips through it, for a game, it is playtesting.
- Beta testing -- this is the first time you let a customer (or potential customer) try it out. You only get friendly customers under NDA to try it, and they run their chips through it (or playtest).
- Release -- we then release the program, but only in a limited way. This is the new thing:
- Early Access -- customers can get early access to code that we think is better than beta quality. In fact, we expect it to work correctly, but there is an occasional bug. There is no NDA needed, but not everyone can get it.
- Full release -- everyone can buy it and use it.
In the MMO arena, it appears that they are calling it "beta", but it's really early access. The FilePlanet "beta" players are a great example; these people are getting early access to a game that they think should basically be finished. What TR did was to try to get many early access people to do a "beta", and then it backfired when it turned out that the program was really only beta quality. The attempt at free marketing ended up being a negative.
These early access people are not testers; real beta testing takes a certain amount of skill in testing procedures, and does not necessarily lead to FUN. Perhaps the game producers did not know that the game was only in "beta" shape when they tried an early access marketing program. This speaks to bad communication or a failure of perception within the company. RG was right.
I do software development professionally; our programs sell for $200,000 to $1,000,000 a copy. A typical large customer will buy $100 million over a 3 year contract (chip design s/w). We always do a beta test before full release, but a new thing has cropped up in the last few years: "early access". So now it goes: - R/D testing -- also called "unit testing". This is where you specifically test features. If the user does X, the program is supposed to do Y. So, test X and look for Y. - Alpha testing -- this lets small numbers of internal people test the program in a more real sense. For us, it means running chips through it, for a game, it is playtesting. - Beta testing -- this is the first time you let a customer (or potential customer) try it out. You only get friendly customers under NDA to try it, and they run their chips through it (or playtest). - Release -- we then release the program, but only in a limited way. This is the new thing: - Early Access -- customers can get early access to code that we think is better than beta quality. In fact, we expect it to work correctly, but there is an occasional bug. There is no NDA needed, but not everyone can get it. - Full release -- everyone can buy it and use it. In the MMO arena, it appears that they are calling it "beta", but it's really early access. The FilePlanet "beta" players are a great example; these people are getting early access to a game that they think should basically be finished. What TR did was to try to get many early access people to do a "beta", and then it backfired when it turned out that the program was really only beta quality. The attempt at free marketing ended up being a negative. These early access people are not testers; real beta testing takes a certain amount of skill in testing procedures, and does not necessarily lead to FUN. Perhaps the game producers did not know that the game was only in "beta" shape when they tried an early access marketing program. This speaks to bad communication or a failure of perception within the company. RG was right.
We told them in closed beta that the game wasn't even NEAR ready, and that we estimated another 4-5 months at least for a smooth release. They extended release 2 weeks - not NEARLY enough - and are now crying it was the testers' fault. Well, if you don't want people to burn down your product, then don't release it to the general public before it's in a shape fit to be seen.
The fact the servers now seem to be emptying out is what we predicted would happen. People play their free month, and decide that's all they're willing to shell out. If the game was good enough in its current state to keep those people, they WOULD stay. That's NOT the fault of bad word of mouth, that's the result of gaming and not liking it.
Comments
Nah - what they did was suck all the fun out of the game with a series of widely swinging attempts to balance things while ignoring the concerns of the beta community. Before they introduced weapon over-heating/jamming, armou decay, and the death penalty the game rocked and was an incredible amount of fun. Afterwards it became such a frustrating experience that it became harder and hardre to log on, let alone sink 12 hours into a major Bane gankfest.
Hell, it was on the strength of the initial experience that I pre-ordered, and was really looking forward to live, then all the fun vanished overnight.
If they'd listened to the concerns of the beta community instead of blindly rushing headlong into oblivion TR would be a gem.
They didn't, it isn't, too bad.
I've been in PotBS beta for a while now, and there is SUCH a difference, it's an example to how a beta should be. Live GMs on 24/7, actively announcing their presence, and there to help investigate bugs, developers who actually DISCUSS things extensively on the forums, feedback forms after missions, so you can pass on likes/dislikes.... even if you don't like the game (which I do, to my surprise), you have to admire the sheer effort.
I think it's not a bad thing to consider open beta a bit of a marketing tool. Primarily, however, it should be about testing server loads, and dealing with anything that's observed to cause lag at a near-normal population. Core game mechanics and missions should be DONE at that time. In TR, however, they did MASSIVE balancing passes in open beta, while they still had major bugs to deal with AND core game elements (logos, player skills) to implement... complaining about negative reactions after that is a wee bit stupid. If you're not near-ready for live, don't go open beta.
Linna
to Linna: I think that very well sums up what beta testing is supposed to be like, and what I try and expect when putting my own time into testing and finding bugs.
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I am neither a fan boi or a troll. I was one of the beta tester, and I actually have experience as a beta tester. I am probably one of the tester he is talking about.
I expected a buggy game, I though we were invited to play the game and find out where the coding errors were. Here's an example: the mission was to blow up 4 big guns. The quest would not update after the first gun was blown up, after a few tries I found that the 4th gun was registering as the 1st gun and the 1st gun was not registering at al. I filed a bug report and went on to play. The bug wasn't fixed, but then the nerf bat was swung, armor and weapons degrade, but the repair mechanism wasn't in place yet. I even posted on the forums suggesting a little perspective, "bug swatter before nerf bat."
The bat still swung and the swatter was not used. I stopped playing.
I kept an eye on the forums to see what bugs were fixed, and all I saw was the cost of ammo go up and other assorted nerfs.
Giving Garriott the benefit of doubt, I will say that marketing killed the game. On the other hand him giving an interview and blaming us neither solves the problem nor prevents it from happening again.
I decided not to purchase that game, and made my recommendation to my friends based on the fact that they nerfed when the should have fixed.
When I talk about my experience as a beta tester I don't talk about bugs, I knew there were going to be bugs, I talk about how they were constantly nerfing the game and not fixing those bugs.
And that is Mr. Garriott's fault.
Boy do I feel bad after reading Linna's post. I was one of those ship-skipping players Garriot talked about. True to life, I never filled a bug report and posted on the forums once or twice to the chagrin of long time COH members in the beta I verbally jostled with. My main fault with the system was the combat, too streamlined for my liking. My first inclination was to shuffle through the settings for a way to turn off the auto aim feature. After a few hours I managed to get out of the starter zone but performance issues with my rig, an issue TR is blameless for, prevented me from going further.
I do wish this title and all those with it market success and I'm saddened to see the lingering negative stigma undeserved.
I am slightly more optimistic about TR. I really enjoy the game yet I don't play it like an addict. I find myself running out EVE for a few hours and then jumping on to TR for an hour or so. I think the game has huge potential and in some ways if they allowed open PvP to fight for and build new bases the game could be truly special. I decided not to purchase this game due to the gamers flaming on about how bad beta was. However I took the chance and I now I really wont bother listening to anyone until I have tried the game for myself since I think a lot didn't even have a clue or seemed to be playing a completely different game. Its fun, pretty stable on launch and if they develop it right, will be around for a long time. Did Beta testers hurt this game? Yes they did but I feel Sci-Fi fans like me will eventually come around to it.
I do agree on the having to many beta testers kind of screwed them over a bit. I mean heard nothing but negative things from most 70% of the beta testers who posted, and it got to the point where i was'nt going to buy the game. But i ended up buying the game any way, and im glad i did.
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Currently Playing: Tabula Rasa
Waiting to play: Aion
Games played: Lineage, Lineage 2, WoW, Guild Wars, City of Heroes, Archlord, Espa Grenada
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System Specs: Windows Vista Home Premium (x64)
AMD X2 5200 (OC-2.8ghz)
4gb Corsair XMS2 ddr2-800 mem.
Crossfire 2 x (ATI 2600xt HD)
Agreed. That article just sounds like someone foisting off the blame for lackluster sales of TR. And that is definitely what is being said in spite of some people claiming the servers are packed. It will be amusing to see the NCSoft quarterly report.
Really good games sell themselves. It doesn't matter how many beta-testers you had. Garriott seems to think the word of mouth will make the sales of TR improve. Another sign of his inability to grasp reality. TR has been constantly getting mixed reviews, not just from people in the beta but people playing the current version. Some people say the game is great, others say it stinks. The more reasonable review articles tend to be of the general tone that 'It's okay".
"It's okay" doesn't lead to a word of mouth campaign and bring in new players. TR will be a niche game, just like Garriott's UO and NCSoft will be asking why it took 6 years to develop and cost them millions.
"It's okay" doesn't lead to a word of mouth campaign and bring in new players. TR will be a niche game, just like Garriott's UO and NCSoft will be asking why it took 6 years to develop and cost them millions.
I agree the game is ok, and its fun, if your looking for a WoW killer look else where. Im playing TR to hold me over for Aion, but again i think TR is'nt spectacular or bad at all. Its a fun game, and it has its good moments, as the previous poster said its a niche game.
Overall i would definately say TR is just a little above an average game, i'd give it a 3/5.
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Currently Playing: Tabula Rasa
Waiting to play: Aion
Games played: Lineage, Lineage 2, WoW, Guild Wars, City of Heroes, Archlord, Espa Grenada
______________________________
System Specs: Windows Vista Home Premium (x64)
AMD X2 5200 (OC-2.8ghz)
4gb Corsair XMS2 ddr2-800 mem.
Crossfire 2 x (ATI 2600xt HD)
I was never in the beta, only managed to play the game till about lvl 10, gave up cause it was too boring and lacked any atmosphere, or at least likeable characters or setting.
Gave account to a friend, he quit at level 21.
I tried to interest the crowds that play games at the cybercafe I manage, there were NOONE who wanted to play it (we have a place with 35 PCs, busy all day and night, mostly WoW players, many in search of a new MMO to pass the time).
Sorry Mr. British, you can kid yourself about beta all you like, but your game just isn't FUN to most people.
NEW IDEAS that can refresh the STALE state of MMORPGs
Whilst I largely agree with what your saying.... There is no such thing as an incorrect perception in relation to a game. Your perception is your perception, nothing more.
Even finished products like movies gain or suffer from perception, I really liked 300. A guy at my work reckons its thw worst movie hes ever seen. Who is right ?
Given Richard's extensive experience he should have known that 95% of beta testers are not. By that I mean 99% of the people who enter betas these days do so in order to decide if they want to shell out for the game, not to assist with testing. I probably exagerated a bit with 95%..... its probably more like 99.99%
So why would he be surprised that these people saw a lemon and shopped accordingly.
The simple fact is (as much as it burns the fanbois). The game is a very average product and even subscribers would be highly unlikely to run it beyond 3 months. I predicted a 12 to 18 month life span for this product, I remain convinced thats about right.
As George Bush said.... "fool me once, shame on...... um..... me ?, fool me twice..... um ....um..."
Point being..... you cant win if you make a bad game. You show people early you kill your sales, you dont show them, they suspect correctly that your game sux and it kills your sales.
Best option..... make a good game....
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"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
http://purepwnage.com
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
I have to aggree with you there. I used to go for closed early beta testing stages, to report and post up bugs and screenshots in order to help them. Aye many bugs, server wipes and all, were to be expected but the latest games don't even take into account half the bugs that are reported. In fact half the time you posted info, it was deleted and they would press on with these still in the game. Thesedays i go for late stage beta's now, one were its not far off being released so what you see is going to be pretty much what you get (bugs and problems included so you know whats comming).
Having said that, Tabula Rasa did change quite alot in its quick run up to release, however the game just wasnt my sort of gameplay for an online monthly subscripted game. Is why i did not buy it. It had something lacking in its gameplay, like addictiveness. But thats just me, others will have a differant opinion. Like you said, you loved the film 300, i thought it was watchable but nothing like all the hype about it.
He should go back and look at his older game, Ultima, now that was great to play, especially from Ultima III Exodus, though to Ultima VII. Thats were he made his name and if he can come up with something that had that sort of gameplay addictiveness and fun then he would be on another cracker. To blame the testers is wrong.
Exactly mate!
I played UO for 6 years. I played all the Ultima games. To me Garriot was a god until recently.
I really thought he would have learned from his involvement with Origin and EA that you need to follow your gut when you have as much talent as he does.
The TR we have is not the TR that he described and THAT is why I find it difficult to listen to him making excuses. He had a vision, he should have stuck to it instead of trying to gain popularity by making decisions that attempted to second guess what people want.
People rarely know what they want until it is presented to them. The games industry is so classic of this. Some of the best titles have come out of left field with little fanfare. Someone's vision made real.
Ita a damn shame.
On the other hand I played the beta releases of Call of Duty 4 and Crysis recently and pre-ordered collectors editions of both. It works contingent only on the premise of your game not sucking.
Sorry Dick.... I love ya
..... but you blew it baby. 
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"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
http://purepwnage.com
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
And people posting lies like this dont help either. I havent seens a single quote where they have claimed to be making a WOW killer or the 'end all' of MMORPG's. In fact the opposite - I have seen quotes saying they had no intention of making a wow killer.
maybe garriot thinks tabula rasa will be a blockbuster like his ultima online and thats the reason why he starts whining
tabula rasa dont have enough innovation to be better then other standard mmorpgs. like many others i have played the beta, the game dont knocked me out of the socks. perhabs tabula rasa should be released 2-3 years earlier to be a big seller.
And people posting lies like this dont help either. I havent seens a single quote where they have claimed to be making a WOW killer or the 'end all' of MMORPG's. In fact the opposite - I have seen quotes saying they had no intention of making a wow killer.
One reason a lot of us are severely disappointed with Tabula Rasa is the difference between what was hyped to be in 2004, and what it became:
TR 2004:
http://videogames.yahoo.com/pc/richard-garriotts-tabula-rasa/preview-22047
http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/tabula-rasa/512085p1.html
http://pc.ign.com/articles/515/515206p1.html
Player housing, player-to-player teleportation, decoration, full character customisation, no armor but clothing with enhancement slots... that game sounded REALLY interesting, even if it did border on fantasy in some respects.
One trend throughout the articles and interviews over the years, is that Garriott was continuously stressing how TR would break the mold, do things different, etc. He didn't always say 'revolutionise', but it's often implied, very clearly so in this interview
http://play.tm/wire/click/1452863
On the whole, I think TR doesn't deliver on a lot of what it promised. All this stuff about ethical quests and their impacts (I've seen 2 or 3, but never noticed an impact), dynamic battlefields (hmm... mobs were already attacking each other without you being there in SWG, and that was in 2003)... meh.
Linna
I was never in the beta, only managed to play the game till about lvl 10, gave up cause it was too boring and lacked any atmosphere, or at least likeable characters or setting.
Gave account to a friend, he quit at level 21.
I tried to interest the crowds that play games at the cybercafe I manage, there were NOONE who wanted to play it (we have a place with 35 PCs, busy all day and night, mostly WoW players, many in search of a new MMO to pass the time).
Sorry Mr. British, you can kid yourself about beta all you like, but your game just isn't FUN to most people.
Yep...pretty much sad to say, I'm glad I did the Trial and not forked over 50.00 bucks for this. The thing is he was given a Scrooge Mcduck sized bank account and years to develop this and this was the best he could do...it's really a Modern day Dikatanna story. I understand that he has plans to ad a couple mechs as being playable, but that should have been included at launch at the very least along with a quest system that didn't put you to sleep, a Space game ala SWG with more of a Buck Rogers Flare would have gone a long way to keep this game out of the shit bin...but adding stuff like this as an after thought never works, the game had it's shot failed and will chug along with a handful of true believers.
I was in the first beta stage all the way till the end and as far as games i beta tested the beta for this game went along smoothly, except for memory errors (which i barely experienced myself) and adjusting ingame items and quests (when i started playing the quests/missions for lvl 20+) was nearly non-existant. I also played when the beginning gun was bugged and could insta-kill most mobs out there (i used that to level through the game quite quickly)
I found the game lacking as far as character creation and customization, and i didnt feel like i was really in the story.
Im in a gaming group in rl a rather large one, and one of our members was a developer for the game, even with our communication with him, the game still didnt change anything the mass suggested really.
Im with everyone else, id really like to see a real bonafied sci-fi game to play again, im so tired of fantasy. I want the feeling the original AO gave me, i want gameplay like AC 1. Im so tired of what mmorpgs have become im almost about to just give up and take on a new hobby.
Thank you, starbead. I couldn't have said it better myself.
TR is not a 'bad' game or a 'great' game. Personally I find it fun but as usual others will disagree. What I am excited about is the future of TR. The game for me was stable at launch and I still yet to see any obvious flaws. The only real issue I will have with TR is probably clearing out all the maps and instances and then looking for more. However thats to be expected. If they develop TR right and introduce mech's and possibly PvP over bases then this game will have a very long future.
For those that play imagine defending a base against players and not the Bane....
He is absolutly correct too, I was a former beta tester that was looking forward to this game and when I got my hands on it I was turned off almost immediately. I tried to like it really did but I just could not since to ME it was not fun at all and had no upside that I could see either.
I also have a hard time believing it is any better now, and attribute the people saying good things about it people just being plum crazy nowadays.. I mean seriously there were people that said good things about DarknLight and Roma Victor while the majority said it was a crap fest and I concur. So this is basicly how I see this game still today since I had first hand knowledge of how bad it is.
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You see, every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with their surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You spread to an area, and you multiply, and you multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet.-Mr.Smith
I haven't read all the comments after the first page, so someone may have beaten me to this point, but there was a comment on the first page that struck me as particularly insightful: that it's probably NOT a good idea to consider your beta testing as part of your marketing.
I think that's why there are NDAs. Testersare supposed to be eyes and ears and hands of the dev team in the world to find the seams and bugs and report them. Secondarily, you're there to evaluate the gameplay itself.
Anytime you invite outsiders behind the curtain, you're taking a risk, and having a large beta population probably increases that risk. Some of your beta testers are going to not carry their weight, are going to spend too much time playing and not enough testing. When I was in beta3 for SWG, I'd stop fighting if I found a bug. I spent a lot of time doing really mundane things to see what would happen and report that thing either via the ingame system or on the forum.
I dare say that there is a desire to create word of mouth buzz well before release via beta testers, and that may have backfired on TR, if you've got too many testers, you're going to be drowned in data and it might just overwhelm you. Then again, some of the testers may not actually be testing, and not making the contribution that you're anticipating.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
I do software development professionally; our programs sell for $200,000 to $1,000,000 a copy. A typical large customer will buy $100 million over a 3 year contract (chip design s/w). We always do a beta test before full release, but a new thing has cropped up in the last few years: "early access". So now it goes:
- R/D testing -- also called "unit testing". This is where you specifically test features. If the user does X, the program is supposed to do Y. So, test X and look for Y.
- Alpha testing -- this lets small numbers of internal people test the program in a more real sense. For us, it means running chips through it, for a game, it is playtesting.
- Beta testing -- this is the first time you let a customer (or potential customer) try it out. You only get friendly customers under NDA to try it, and they run their chips through it (or playtest).
- Release -- we then release the program, but only in a limited way. This is the new thing:
- Early Access -- customers can get early access to code that we think is better than beta quality. In fact, we expect it to work correctly, but there is an occasional bug. There is no NDA needed, but not everyone can get it.
- Full release -- everyone can buy it and use it.
In the MMO arena, it appears that they are calling it "beta", but it's really early access. The FilePlanet "beta" players are a great example; these people are getting early access to a game that they think should basically be finished. What TR did was to try to get many early access people to do a "beta", and then it backfired when it turned out that the program was really only beta quality. The attempt at free marketing ended up being a negative.
These early access people are not testers; real beta testing takes a certain amount of skill in testing procedures, and does not necessarily lead to FUN. Perhaps the game producers did not know that the game was only in "beta" shape when they tried an early access marketing program. This speaks to bad communication or a failure of perception within the company. RG was right.
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2025: 48 years on the Net.
We told them in closed beta that the game wasn't even NEAR ready, and that we estimated another 4-5 months at least for a smooth release. They extended release 2 weeks - not NEARLY enough - and are now crying it was the testers' fault. Well, if you don't want people to burn down your product, then don't release it to the general public before it's in a shape fit to be seen.
The fact the servers now seem to be emptying out is what we predicted would happen. People play their free month, and decide that's all they're willing to shell out. If the game was good enough in its current state to keep those people, they WOULD stay. That's NOT the fault of bad word of mouth, that's the result of gaming and not liking it.
Linna