Personally I think the Dark Age of Camelot aspect is weighing in very hard in people's judgements here. I have little problems with the rogue's in World of Warcraft, I'd *definately* not call them anywhere near to overpowered. (I'm a Hunter myself)
Playing catch with a rogue, seeing one person at a control point but never being sure if there aren't druids/rogues stealthed keeps things interesting imo. Stealthers are also excellent on information on area's you'd otherwise not get close to.
I personally think there are plenty of things stealth classes can bring to a game, just don't make them ridiculously overpowered like in Daoc.
Naw, while its true, stealthers in DAOC were a major pain, even in WOW they were irritating, especially as you were trying to level up on a PVP server. You'd be there, minding your own business, pulling 2 or 3 mobs that were well witihin your range and then out of no where a Rogue would uncloak and nail you while you were at 50% health and had 3 mobs on you.
Now, I'd be all for them if in the previously described scenario the moment they attacked me I was insta-healed to 100% and the mobs immediately aggo'd the stealther.
So your anti argument is based on the fact that a stealther "may" gank you unaware in PvE?
I mean, disregarding the fact that Warhammer is almost holding your hand through that already with their core ruleset and next to that the chicken, getting ganked is gonna happen if it's a level difference and you're fighting a mob anyway whether you saw him or not, not to mention at least for me as a hunter a similar level rogue jumping me certainly wasn't the end of the world.
It seems like a silly argument at best to base not having the mechanics it brings to PvP to be lost because it could be used for griefing in PvE(especially in a game based on PvP) and even then it only gives a small edge unless the class is either higher level or overpowered to begin with.
Good point, WAR is a PVP centric game and as you pointed out, the issue isn't that big of a deal in that case.
But I still prefer the combat to have everyone on the field where I can see them, and not have people magically popping out of thin air to attack.
Fair enough, I personally prefer the uncertainty of not knowing what I'm facing ^^
Originally posted by Kremlik
Saying that you said stunlocking can be broken via trinkets, but thats basically WoW is 'requires' XYZ gear wise in every aspect of the game but if a MMO wont be that gear dependent and just going from a skill base, plus that 'escape' skill out of stun/fear lock only has time to work that once were all a player really has to do is wait a bit then coniue the locking..
The only reason that is is because it's gear in that game, there's nothing stopping developers from making it an innate ability. It's just an example of something that can make it so an ability can be countered. it just happens to be a trinket in WoW.
To me stealth is just a "safe zone", not as perfect as say a WoW Paladins bubble but to the same effect. At any time stealthers can say "okay I'm outta here" and pop into their own little world where they are relatively "safe" from external sources.
While stealth is nice for giving that player a feeling of being an "assassin". Gameplay wise I see it as nothing more than a crutch for people who can't play on the field like others. Don't get me wrong I had a 60 rogue when I played WoW and he was fun, (I'm not going to deny stealthing is fun) but he was my least played 60.
Stealth is just not as prominent to my gaming experience as some I suppose.
I am pleased that WAR has no stealthing classes.
EDIT: (HYPOTHETICAL) Just to add I had a 50 Infiltrator in DAOC too, and if they ever decided to toss in stealthing classes it better not be like DAOCs. I loved 1 shotting people with PA but I hope it wouldn't be that simple anymore.
The dark elf assasin. And with it stealth. If you know something about warhammer then you know how awesome these guys are. heres a concept art for one by me. an mmorpg w/o stealth means no proper rogue class. which means a crippled mmo. warhammer has a great stealth class in the lore already. why leave it out? to keep the game simple it seems.
If you actually played Warhammer "TT" you would know why there are no stealth classes in the game in a WOW,EQ2 and DAoC sense.
Go buy the rule book, the Dark Elf book and you will find out there is a difference between hidden (applies to assasins,they are not moving around "hence hidden") and stealth (moving through undetected "difference than sneaking within 3 inches of your foe invisible like EQ2").
If you want Stealth in the aspect of being within 5 inches of your enemy and not being seen (invisible), I think you are looking at the wrong game, EQ2 and WOW has that.
On a note, I think they did good by not putting a cheap skill in the game and who knows, they haven't really went into description about the Shadow Warrior and we all know they fall in the category of the scout class.
To me stealth is just a "safe zone", not as perfect as say a WoW Paladins bubble but to the same effect. At any time stealthers can say "okay I'm outta here" and pop into their own little world where they are relatively "safe" from external sources. While stealth is nice for giving that player a feeling of being an "assassin". Gameplay wise I see it as nothing more than a crutch for people who can't play on the field like others. Don't get me wrong I had a 60 rogue when I played WoW and he was fun, (I'm not going to deny stealthing is fun) but he was my least played 60. Stealth is just not as prominent to my gaming experience as some I suppose. I am pleased that WAR has no stealthing classes. EDIT: (HYPOTHETICAL) Just to add I had a 50 Infiltrator in DAOC too, and if they ever decided to toss in stealthing classes it better not be like DAOCs. I loved 1 shotting people with PA but I hope it wouldn't be that simple anymore.
I think that your assumption that people who play rogues can't hang with the non-stealthers in battle is dead wrong. I had a 70 rogue before I quit. Every type of BG.. I would be the top killer, defender, attacker.. one of them, if not all, at least.. most of the time. I played a rogue exclusively. So much that I didn't even have another 60. The closest was a 56 holy priest.
I did my fair share of ganking people out in the open world. NEWS FLASH. Rogues are underhanded, cheap, mean, and any other bad thing you can think of. They are supposed to kill for profit, steal for profit... in general, be a nuisance. If you don't see their place in an MMO, then you are just another carebear. Sure, they can go AFK rather safely, they can pick and choose their fights, gank, scout without much danger.. but they had to have stealth and stunlocks to be effective.
Someone said Warlocks had the toughest time against rogues.. well, how about you be a rogue in WoW and attack a warrior with a powerful 2 hander. It was suicide. There is a weakness to every class. Mages and Warriors were tough. It was like that for every different class. Stealth is fine. Diminishing returns on stuns would be fine. Have to be near underbrush or trees.. or structures would be a good addition. I still think the vanish ability should be there.. but only if rooted where you have control of your character. But it shouldn't break abilities that would allow you to see stealth and it shouldn't break dots or an ability that would slow you. That way, you may not be able to get back to safety before the 10 seconds wears off.
In a game where WAR is everwhere.. and RvR has a lot of siege in it. Where large armies are... scouts should have an opportunity to not be seen. You would be extremely ineffective against a group of players on your own even if you are stealthed. Plus, you can always go to PvE only zones to level up. They are in every tier of the game. Ganking lower levels isn't even an option. And it is DAoC''s fault to give sleathed archers the ability to one-shot players. The chicken should change a lot of it. I understand the table-top game doesn't support stealth.. but this is a video game.. there are plenty of things in the MMO that won't be in the old game.
Whether there is stealth or not.. that's fine. But, I believe it is a viable option and could certainly be balanced.
To me stealth is just a "safe zone", not as perfect as say a WoW Paladins bubble but to the same effect. At any time stealthers can say "okay I'm outta here" and pop into their own little world where they are relatively "safe" from external sources. While stealth is nice for giving that player a feeling of being an "assassin". Gameplay wise I see it as nothing more than a crutch for people who can't play on the field like others. Don't get me wrong I had a 60 rogue when I played WoW and he was fun, (I'm not going to deny stealthing is fun) but he was my least played 60. Stealth is just not as prominent to my gaming experience as some I suppose. I am pleased that WAR has no stealthing classes. EDIT: (HYPOTHETICAL) Just to add I had a 50 Infiltrator in DAOC too, and if they ever decided to toss in stealthing classes it better not be like DAOCs. I loved 1 shotting people with PA but I hope it wouldn't be that simple anymore.
I think that your assumption that people who play rogues can't hang with the non-stealthers in battle is dead wrong. I had a 70 rogue before I quit. Every type of BG.. I would be the top killer, defender, attacker.. one of them, if not all, at least.. most of the time. I played a rogue exclusively. So much that I didn't even have another 60. The closest was a 56 holy priest. I think you are assuming I assume that, which is wrong. It's not about your "wow rogue" it's about "stealth". I think stealth is a whole dimension of gaming, and yes I think it is a crutch style of gaming. I think stealthers can hang, but like I said it's a safe zone. I will also say though that it is incredibly fun to play stealthers as well. When I played them though, I felt like I was playing a game on easy difficulty.
I did my fair share of ganking people out in the open world. NEWS FLASH. Rogues are underhanded, cheap, mean, and any other bad thing you can think of. They are supposed to kill for profit, steal for profit... in general, be a nuisance. If you don't see their place in an MMO, then you are just another carebear. Sure, they can go AFK rather safely, they can pick and choose their fights, gank, scout without much danger.. but they had to have stealth and stunlocks to be effective. See other thread about stealth and my "immersion factor" response.
In a game where WAR is everwhere.. and RvR has a lot of siege in it. Where large armies are... scouts should have an opportunity to not be seen. You would be extremely ineffective against a group of players on your own even if you are stealthed. Plus, you can always go to PvE only zones to level up. They are in every tier of the game. Ganking lower levels isn't even an option. And it is DAoC''s fault to give sleathed archers the ability to one-shot players. The chicken should change a lot of it. I understand the table-top game doesn't support stealth.. but this is a video game.. there are plenty of things in the MMO that won't be in the old game.
Whether there is stealth or not.. that's fine. But, I believe it is a viable option and could certainly be balanced.
That's not true, it doesn't support it in the sense that everyone understands it from games like EQ2, WOW and even Vanguard.
The best example I can give for how stealth works in Warhammer is with that of the Tabula Rasa game and the Ranger class. Your pretty much off the radar while moving around but you are not invisible "can be seen all the time".
Hidden works differently also, it works in where you can pretty much blend in a shadowy environment but you cannot move "cannot be seen or detected easily either" and even with all this description I gave you, all this stuff works differently when in skirmishes/battles.
I have to say that no stealth is the best stealth. Sneak up on your own, without some cheesy 'vanish' ability. If you want to play a rogue, play one but do it with skill. I play a rogue in WoW and it is one of the easiest 'easy' mode classes in the game.
Believe a year ago Mark Jacobs did a interview where he discussed the mechanics of stealth in MMO's and in DAOC and used that to state why they will be leaving it out of War
Im not a huge WAR beta news freak so I dont have the link handy, but Im sure someone on the forums here can quote it word for word.
I'm a HUGE Assassin/Rogue player in every game I play. It's a fun play-style for me. The rush of just killing someone incredibly fast, with a combination of fast attacks and many different conditions on them to further hurt them, is just a really fun thing for me in games. In Guildwars, the Assassin character didn't have stealth at all, but it has a Shadow Step feature for the arch-type, and with you, you could go in, kill, and get out incredibly quickly, just like an assassin SHOULD.
So, it all depends on how Warrhammer implements it. In Guildwars they did it perfectly without stealth, and in WoW/DAoC/UO they had stealth characters that got advantages from being stealthed, and made it a good thing to have.
It doesn't exist in the Warhammer game mechanics so it has no place in the online version. If they were to add it, they'd just be making shit up and I doubt GW would allow it.
MMOs Played: EQ 1&2, DAoC, SWG, Planetside, WoW, GW, CoX, DDO, EVE, Vanguard, TR Playing: WAR Awaiting 40k Online and wishing for Battletech Online
The fact is everyone had a level 60-70 Rogue, while I did have a very fun time playing that class, I don't believe Blizzard implemented stealth correctly. And as others have said, it doesn't belong here. All of the Warhammer classes we have so far are very iconic and should replicate what they were about in the TT.
The dark elf assasin. And with it stealth. If you know something about warhammer then you know how awesome these guys are. heres a concept art for one by me. an mmorpg w/o stealth means no proper rogue class. which means a crippled mmo. warhammer has a great stealth class in the lore already. why leave it out? to keep the game simple it seems.
I personally am very happy that stealthy types are not going to be part of this game. The big win is that type of player, you know the type, the type who will not play this game because of no stealth, won't be present in the game. Win-win for the fans. Lose for the losers.
I'm also glad there isn't going to be stealth and all that goes with it. There is nothing fun about living through a tough fight and then having someone who couldn't kill you on thier best day in a fair fight pop out of stealth and do 1/1000th of your hit points in damage for a kill. I'd much rather have every class on semi even ground where if the player (not the class) pays attention then the majority of fights at least start equal. 1 or 2 classes should never get to be the only ones able to pick and choose thier encounters while everyone else has to deal with chance. Either give every class stealth (and watch your massive game of marko/polo fail) or give no class stealth. Or better yet do away with classes and let us choose our own skills.
Anyway I can't wait to see the influx of WoW rogues quickly leave WAR shortly after release because they can't play a character who doesn't start with an unfair advantage. If we're lucky they'll put in a harsh death penalty too (unlikely) which would drive out the impatient kiddies and immature adults also.
i love that picture, it looks cool, but your statement about warhammer in need of a stealth class is down right retarded. and here is the reason why.
Play any game that has classes that use steath, now i want you to play a class that dose not have it,
stand out in the open, and fight something you can see and enjoy the fight,
now do the exsact same thing but let that something hit you first for about 6 seconds, before you fight it,
oh wait a second, too late, you are dead.
hows the ground ? , yeah i thought as much.
next fight, you get the upper hand , awww shoot , they disappered, , they ran away, no kill for you.
opps you just got perfed by his friend, and now you are dead again,
Having fun yet ? sure is a blast,
Stealth ruins mmorpgs, invisabillity ruins games,
camoflauge is a better choice. and here is the reason why, you blend in with your envirorment to give the sorta element of surprise , unlike the wtf , where did that come from surprise.
plus there is no challenge in killing casters or non fighting classes all day , and run away .
Stealthers should die like everyone eles, not be demi god like
No stealth was one of the early things that made me most interested in this game.
Stealth is a pain to balance in PvP. Mythic learned this from DAOC.
Stealth stinks for PvE for everyone *else* in a group with a stealth character. The stealher goes off on their own 'scouting' forcing everyone else to sits on their rears doing nothing. Yeah, that's a real blast. This happens in WoW, CoH and every other game with stealth.
Unbalanced PvP. Wrecks the concept of grouping for PvE. The disadvantages to any game far outweigh the benefits and a developer has finally realized this.
WAR decided to slap stealthing in the face. And frankly, it deserves it.
I really want an Assasin, but the Stealth part will give people the excuse to call WAR a (I hate this term) "WoW clone".
They already do because of similar artwork (nevermind that Warhammer created their look LONG before Blizzard ever even thought of making the original Warcraft RTS). Pretty much everything is labeled a WoW clone now. I try my best to overlook people that say stuff like that. I'm sure in their mind it's a true statement.
MMOs Played: EQ 1&2, DAoC, SWG, Planetside, WoW, GW, CoX, DDO, EVE, Vanguard, TR Playing: WAR Awaiting 40k Online and wishing for Battletech Online
I'm also glad there isn't going to be stealth and all that goes with it. There is nothing fun about living through a tough fight and then having someone who couldn't kill you on thier best day in a fair fight pop out of stealth and do 1/1000th of your hit points in damage for a kill. I'd much rather have every class on semi even ground where if the player (not the class) pays attention then the majority of fights at least start equal. 1 or 2 classes should never get to be the only ones able to pick and choose thier encounters while everyone else has to deal with chance. Either give every class stealth (and watch your massive game of marko/polo fail) or give no class stealth. Or better yet do away with classes and let us choose our own skills. Anyway I can't wait to see the influx of WoW rogues quickly leave WAR shortly after release because they can't play a character who doesn't start with an unfair advantage. If we're lucky they'll put in a harsh death penalty too (unlikely) which would drive out the impatient kiddies and immature adults also.
Assuming WoW rogue players will leave WAR because there isn't stealth is pretty dumb. They'll know that going into the game. Also, assuming WoW rogue players don't know how to fight without stealth is extremely stupid as well. In fact, the rogue makes you play your positions more than any other class in the game. A good rogue will be able to move themselves better than someone who hasn't played a rogue. You have to have great timing and be extremely precise in every action.. I will be able to beat you with any class at any time. Don't be ignorant.. just because people play a certain class.. doesn't mean they have no experience with other classes.
There won't be a death penalty of significant nature. Sorry.
Oh yea.. if you get into a fight that you might not win against a monster.. and you get down to 100 hp.. then lose to a player 20 lvls lower than you. The joke is on you. Was that risk worth running back to your grave for 10 minutes?
i love that picture, it looks cool, but your statement about warhammer in need of a stealth class is down right retarded. and here is the reason why.
Play any game that has classes that use steath, now i want you to play a class that dose not have it, stand out in the open, and fight something you can see and enjoy the fight, Done that plenty of times, as a stealther and non-stealther.
now do the exsact same thing but let that something hit you first for about 6 seconds, before you fight it, oh wait a second, too late, you are dead. hows the ground ? , yeah i thought as much. next fight, you get the upper hand , awww shoot , they disappered, , they ran away, no kill for you. opps you just got perfed by his friend, and now you are dead again, Having fun yet ? sure is a blast, Obviously they are fighting as a group, maybe you should leave.. or adopt the same idea. Fight with friends. Most groups can kill a single target easily. Your point is invalid. I can say the same for a rogue class against a high dps tank class. Swing swing, dead. Stealth ruins mmorpgs, invisabillity ruins games, Not a fact, an opinion. camoflauge is a better choice. and here is the reason why, you blend in with your envirorment to give the sorta element of surprise , unlike the wtf , where did that come from surprise. I agree here, for WAR. plus there is no challenge in killing casters or non fighting classes all day , and run away . That was the purpose of rogues in WoW. Play to your class strengths.. doing anything else is downright stupid.
Stealthers should die like everyone eles, not be demi god like They do, like I said.. stick with a group, don't get picked off.. take precautions. It's obvious that you won't have to plan for stealthers in WAR though.. since they are being left out.
They just need stealth like Fable or Splinter Cell or Riddick.
Movement + position + lighting.
They are even talking for the next Spinter Cell to have "crowd stealth."
Point is, instant vanish stealth = exploitable
Realistic stealth = takes skill
Throw in distractions + disguises and it could work in a MMO
Have the stealth class have to carry camo-kits based off of the local environment (shrubbery, trees, grass etc.) so that they could then hide and blend in so they could still ambush. Use distracting flash powders and slight of hand tricks to disorient their opposition, but NOT just magically disappear into thin air.
Make it based off their skill in stealth + how good their camo is + how they are moving + the direction of their prey and which way they are facing+ night/day conditions or weather effects etc. etc and you could have realistic stealth that worked in a MMO.
But I am very glad Mythic didn't go the "easy" way and just threw in magic-vanish stealth.
They just need stealth like Fable or Splinter Cell or Riddick. Movement + position + lighting. They are even talking for the next Spinter Cell to have "crowd stealth." Point is, instant vanish stealth = exploitable Realistic stealth = takes skill Throw in distractions + disguises and it could work in a MMO Have the stealth class have to carry camo-kits based off of the local environment (shrubbery, trees, grass etc.) so that they could then hide and blend in so they could still ambush. Use distracting flash powders and slight of hand tricks to disorient their opposition, but NOT just magically disappear into thin air. Make it based off their skill in stealth + how good their camo is + how they are moving + the direction of their prey and which way they are facing+ night/day conditions or weather effects etc. etc and you could have realistic stealth that worked in a MMO. But I am very glad Mythic didn't go the "easy" way and just threw in magic-vanish stealth.
QFT.
Learn some skill if you want to get closer to a human enemy. Learn to hide behind cover.
It would be easy to implement skill based methods of camoflauge. You could also implement a class based cooldown skill to avoid showing on radar. You could use bits of enemy dead to camo yourself somewhat or foliage from the terrain.
However, having a button to press to go insta-invisible is a CRUTCH plain and simple. I am tired of ppl raising this exact type of thread. Whine piss moan... why no stealth? Boo hoo.
This is a skill based game, not an +invis +stun +big attack1 +big attack2 +restun +finishing combo type of kiddie kill game. Get over it.
Comments
Naw, while its true, stealthers in DAOC were a major pain, even in WOW they were irritating, especially as you were trying to level up on a PVP server. You'd be there, minding your own business, pulling 2 or 3 mobs that were well witihin your range and then out of no where a Rogue would uncloak and nail you while you were at 50% health and had 3 mobs on you.
Now, I'd be all for them if in the previously described scenario the moment they attacked me I was insta-healed to 100% and the mobs immediately aggo'd the stealther.
So your anti argument is based on the fact that a stealther "may" gank you unaware in PvE?
I mean, disregarding the fact that Warhammer is almost holding your hand through that already with their core ruleset and next to that the chicken, getting ganked is gonna happen if it's a level difference and you're fighting a mob anyway whether you saw him or not, not to mention at least for me as a hunter a similar level rogue jumping me certainly wasn't the end of the world.
It seems like a silly argument at best to base not having the mechanics it brings to PvP to be lost because it could be used for griefing in PvE(especially in a game based on PvP) and even then it only gives a small edge unless the class is either higher level or overpowered to begin with.
Good point, WAR is a PVP centric game and as you pointed out, the issue isn't that big of a deal in that case.
But I still prefer the combat to have everyone on the field where I can see them, and not have people magically popping out of thin air to attack.
Fair enough, I personally prefer the uncertainty of not knowing what I'm facing ^^
The only reason that is is because it's gear in that game, there's nothing stopping developers from making it an innate ability. It's just an example of something that can make it so an ability can be countered. it just happens to be a trinket in WoW.
To me stealth is just a "safe zone", not as perfect as say a WoW Paladins bubble but to the same effect. At any time stealthers can say "okay I'm outta here" and pop into their own little world where they are relatively "safe" from external sources.
While stealth is nice for giving that player a feeling of being an "assassin". Gameplay wise I see it as nothing more than a crutch for people who can't play on the field like others. Don't get me wrong I had a 60 rogue when I played WoW and he was fun, (I'm not going to deny stealthing is fun) but he was my least played 60.
Stealth is just not as prominent to my gaming experience as some I suppose.
I am pleased that WAR has no stealthing classes.
EDIT: (HYPOTHETICAL) Just to add I had a 50 Infiltrator in DAOC too, and if they ever decided to toss in stealthing classes it better not be like DAOCs. I loved 1 shotting people with PA but I hope it wouldn't be that simple anymore.
If you actually played Warhammer "TT" you would know why there are no stealth classes in the game in a WOW,EQ2 and DAoC sense.
Go buy the rule book, the Dark Elf book and you will find out there is a difference between hidden (applies to assasins,they are not moving around "hence hidden") and stealth (moving through undetected "difference than sneaking within 3 inches of your foe invisible like EQ2").
If you want Stealth in the aspect of being within 5 inches of your enemy and not being seen (invisible), I think you are looking at the wrong game, EQ2 and WOW has that.
On a note, I think they did good by not putting a cheap skill in the game and who knows, they haven't really went into description about the Shadow Warrior and we all know they fall in the category of the scout class.
I did my fair share of ganking people out in the open world. NEWS FLASH. Rogues are underhanded, cheap, mean, and any other bad thing you can think of. They are supposed to kill for profit, steal for profit... in general, be a nuisance. If you don't see their place in an MMO, then you are just another carebear. Sure, they can go AFK rather safely, they can pick and choose their fights, gank, scout without much danger.. but they had to have stealth and stunlocks to be effective.
Someone said Warlocks had the toughest time against rogues.. well, how about you be a rogue in WoW and attack a warrior with a powerful 2 hander. It was suicide. There is a weakness to every class. Mages and Warriors were tough. It was like that for every different class. Stealth is fine. Diminishing returns on stuns would be fine. Have to be near underbrush or trees.. or structures would be a good addition. I still think the vanish ability should be there.. but only if rooted where you have control of your character. But it shouldn't break abilities that would allow you to see stealth and it shouldn't break dots or an ability that would slow you. That way, you may not be able to get back to safety before the 10 seconds wears off.
In a game where WAR is everwhere.. and RvR has a lot of siege in it. Where large armies are... scouts should have an opportunity to not be seen. You would be extremely ineffective against a group of players on your own even if you are stealthed. Plus, you can always go to PvE only zones to level up. They are in every tier of the game. Ganking lower levels isn't even an option. And it is DAoC''s fault to give sleathed archers the ability to one-shot players. The chicken should change a lot of it. I understand the table-top game doesn't support stealth.. but this is a video game.. there are plenty of things in the MMO that won't be in the old game.
Whether there is stealth or not.. that's fine. But, I believe it is a viable option and could certainly be balanced.
I did my fair share of ganking people out in the open world. NEWS FLASH. Rogues are underhanded, cheap, mean, and any other bad thing you can think of. They are supposed to kill for profit, steal for profit... in general, be a nuisance. If you don't see their place in an MMO, then you are just another carebear. Sure, they can go AFK rather safely, they can pick and choose their fights, gank, scout without much danger.. but they had to have stealth and stunlocks to be effective. See other thread about stealth and my "immersion factor" response.
In a game where WAR is everwhere.. and RvR has a lot of siege in it. Where large armies are... scouts should have an opportunity to not be seen. You would be extremely ineffective against a group of players on your own even if you are stealthed. Plus, you can always go to PvE only zones to level up. They are in every tier of the game. Ganking lower levels isn't even an option. And it is DAoC''s fault to give sleathed archers the ability to one-shot players. The chicken should change a lot of it. I understand the table-top game doesn't support stealth.. but this is a video game.. there are plenty of things in the MMO that won't be in the old game.
Whether there is stealth or not.. that's fine. But, I believe it is a viable option and could certainly be balanced.
That's not true, it doesn't support it in the sense that everyone understands it from games like EQ2, WOW and even Vanguard.The best example I can give for how stealth works in Warhammer is with that of the Tabula Rasa game and the Ranger class. Your pretty much off the radar while moving around but you are not invisible "can be seen all the time".
Hidden works differently also, it works in where you can pretty much blend in a shadowy environment but you cannot move "cannot be seen or detected easily either" and even with all this description I gave you, all this stuff works differently when in skirmishes/battles.
I have to say that no stealth is the best stealth. Sneak up on your own, without some cheesy 'vanish' ability. If you want to play a rogue, play one but do it with skill. I play a rogue in WoW and it is one of the easiest 'easy' mode classes in the game.
Down with stealth...up with skill
Believe a year ago Mark Jacobs did a interview where he discussed the mechanics of stealth in MMO's and in DAOC and used that to state why they will be leaving it out of War
Im not a huge WAR beta news freak so I dont have the link handy, but Im sure someone on the forums here can quote it word for word.
I'm a HUGE Assassin/Rogue player in every game I play. It's a fun play-style for me. The rush of just killing someone incredibly fast, with a combination of fast attacks and many different conditions on them to further hurt them, is just a really fun thing for me in games. In Guildwars, the Assassin character didn't have stealth at all, but it has a Shadow Step feature for the arch-type, and with you, you could go in, kill, and get out incredibly quickly, just like an assassin SHOULD.
So, it all depends on how Warrhammer implements it. In Guildwars they did it perfectly without stealth, and in WoW/DAoC/UO they had stealth characters that got advantages from being stealthed, and made it a good thing to have.
It doesn't exist in the Warhammer game mechanics so it has no place in the online version. If they were to add it, they'd just be making shit up and I doubt GW would allow it.
MMOs Played: EQ 1&2, DAoC, SWG, Planetside, WoW, GW, CoX, DDO, EVE, Vanguard, TR
Playing: WAR
Awaiting 40k Online and wishing for Battletech Online
The fact is everyone had a level 60-70 Rogue, while I did have a very fun time playing that class, I don't believe Blizzard implemented stealth correctly. And as others have said, it doesn't belong here. All of the Warhammer classes we have so far are very iconic and should replicate what they were about in the TT.
I personally am very happy that stealthy types are not going to be part of this game. The big win is that type of player, you know the type, the type who will not play this game because of no stealth, won't be present in the game. Win-win for the fans. Lose for the losers.
Anyway I can't wait to see the influx of WoW rogues quickly leave WAR shortly after release because they can't play a character who doesn't start with an unfair advantage. If we're lucky they'll put in a harsh death penalty too (unlikely) which would drive out the impatient kiddies and immature adults also.
Stop whining and login so I can kill you!
WAR is missing me in the beta...
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
TRUTH... at least I mean for me
i love that picture, it looks cool, but your statement about warhammer in need of a stealth class is down right retarded. and here is the reason why.
Play any game that has classes that use steath, now i want you to play a class that dose not have it,
stand out in the open, and fight something you can see and enjoy the fight,
now do the exsact same thing but let that something hit you first for about 6 seconds, before you fight it,
oh wait a second, too late, you are dead.
hows the ground ? , yeah i thought as much.
next fight, you get the upper hand , awww shoot , they disappered, , they ran away, no kill for you.
opps you just got perfed by his friend, and now you are dead again,
Having fun yet ? sure is a blast,
Stealth ruins mmorpgs, invisabillity ruins games,
camoflauge is a better choice. and here is the reason why, you blend in with your envirorment to give the sorta element of surprise , unlike the wtf , where did that come from surprise.
plus there is no challenge in killing casters or non fighting classes all day , and run away .
Stealthers should die like everyone eles, not be demi god like
No stealth was one of the early things that made me most interested in this game.
Stealth is a pain to balance in PvP. Mythic learned this from DAOC.
Stealth stinks for PvE for everyone *else* in a group with a stealth character. The stealher goes off on their own 'scouting' forcing everyone else to sits on their rears doing nothing. Yeah, that's a real blast. This happens in WoW, CoH and every other game with stealth.
Unbalanced PvP. Wrecks the concept of grouping for PvE. The disadvantages to any game far outweigh the benefits and a developer has finally realized this.
WAR decided to slap stealthing in the face. And frankly, it deserves it.
No stealth/invisibility.
No heavy crowd control.
These were left back in DAoC and left out of WAR.
That's a win-win.
~~~
Also, not much change of equal-level players just walking up and one-shot, crit-hit killing an enemy.
~~~
Long ago, the lead dev said that "stealth ganking" was out.
If you want to gank, you have to do it the old-fashioned way.
~ Ancient Membership ~
Bollocks!
I really want an Assasin, but the Stealth part will give people the excuse to call WAR a (I hate this term) "WoW clone".
They already do because of similar artwork (nevermind that Warhammer created their look LONG before Blizzard ever even thought of making the original Warcraft RTS). Pretty much everything is labeled a WoW clone now. I try my best to overlook people that say stuff like that. I'm sure in their mind it's a true statement.
MMOs Played: EQ 1&2, DAoC, SWG, Planetside, WoW, GW, CoX, DDO, EVE, Vanguard, TR
Playing: WAR
Awaiting 40k Online and wishing for Battletech Online
There won't be a death penalty of significant nature. Sorry.
Oh yea.. if you get into a fight that you might not win against a monster.. and you get down to 100 hp.. then lose to a player 20 lvls lower than you. The joke is on you. Was that risk worth running back to your grave for 10 minutes?
They just need stealth like Fable or Splinter Cell or Riddick.
Movement + position + lighting.
They are even talking for the next Spinter Cell to have "crowd stealth."
Point is, instant vanish stealth = exploitable
Realistic stealth = takes skill
Throw in distractions + disguises and it could work in a MMO
Have the stealth class have to carry camo-kits based off of the local environment (shrubbery, trees, grass etc.) so that they could then hide and blend in so they could still ambush. Use distracting flash powders and slight of hand tricks to disorient their opposition, but NOT just magically disappear into thin air.
Make it based off their skill in stealth + how good their camo is + how they are moving + the direction of their prey and which way they are facing+ night/day conditions or weather effects etc. etc and you could have realistic stealth that worked in a MMO.
But I am very glad Mythic didn't go the "easy" way and just threw in magic-vanish stealth.
Learn some skill if you want to get closer to a human enemy. Learn to hide behind cover.
It would be easy to implement skill based methods of camoflauge. You could also implement a class based cooldown skill to avoid showing on radar. You could use bits of enemy dead to camo yourself somewhat or foliage from the terrain.
However, having a button to press to go insta-invisible is a CRUTCH plain and simple. I am tired of ppl raising this exact type of thread. Whine piss moan... why no stealth? Boo hoo.
This is a skill based game, not an +invis +stun +big attack1 +big attack2 +restun +finishing combo type of kiddie kill game. Get over it.