lol you guys say stuff like... well just because stealth wasnt balanced in other games........ come on for one... there is not much you can do to balance stealth... besides adding shit loads of view stealth items or spells...because stealth is stealth no way to really balance it... personaly yay some ppl who are trying to fix pvp... not screw it up even more.. wow pvp sucked... l2 sucked... daoc sucked...no mmo has ever made pvp fun except for the griefers and thats just stupid
as i have already said, stealth in Shadowbane is very balanced. So to say it can't be balanced is nonsense
A pointless,or should I say infinite,discussion . However,witch elves are going to be some kind of realistic stealther("realistic" is a sum of everthing I would say). .All the matter is explained in the first podcasts and in-game footages/interview-description(warhammeronline.com) related to witch elves.
What WAR is missing is sensible and consistent class names. ("C'mon. Orc Choppa? Dwarf Hammerer? Enough r's in that last one?)
Would you prefer a "sensible and consistent" class name like, oh, "warrior"? It has three R's! Oh no! Hammerer has two r's, I think you will live, and I fail to understand your point.
The class names are consistent with the lore and the feel for each race, actually. It makes less sense for every race to have similar class names, really, like in other bland games. Orcs are rather stupid and brutish, hence a name like "Choppa". Dwarfs are blunt and gruff, hence a to-the-point name like "Hammerer".
With the names and the gender thing, you seem to be calling for a bland world, "World of Fantasy MMORPG", with few defining characteristics. I applaud actions taken to make things different and more vibrant. Little things like interesting, thematic class names and a strong push to stick to defining lore all help accomplish this.
Simple standard class names sure worked for the current king of MMORPG's: WOW
And numerous silly class names for redundant class types have not worked much for EQ2 or DAOC.
There is detail and there is needless detail. Some may like the WAR class names, but it's a turnoff to a lot of the more mature players; it just sounds like a kiddie PVP layout.
What WAR is missing is sensible and consistent class names. ("C'mon. Orc Choppa? Dwarf Hammerer? Enough r's in that last one?)
Would you prefer a "sensible and consistent" class name like, oh, "warrior"? It has three R's! Oh no! Hammerer has two r's, I think you will live, and I fail to understand your point.
The class names are consistent with the lore and the feel for each race, actually. It makes less sense for every race to have similar class names, really, like in other bland games. Orcs are rather stupid and brutish, hence a name like "Choppa". Dwarfs are blunt and gruff, hence a to-the-point name like "Hammerer".
With the names and the gender thing, you seem to be calling for a bland world, "World of Fantasy MMORPG", with few defining characteristics. I applaud actions taken to make things different and more vibrant. Little things like interesting, thematic class names and a strong push to stick to defining lore all help accomplish this.
Simple standard class names sure worked for the current king of MMORPG's: WOW
And numerous silly class names for redundant class types have not worked much for EQ2 or DAOC.
There is detail and there is needless detail. Some may like the WAR class names, but it's a turnoff to a lot of the more mature players; it just sounds like a kiddie PVP layout.
I have to disagree with more "Mature" players enjoying a list similar to WoW's 6 or 7 classes in Warhammer.
I would much rather have 24 to choose from. Remember, everyone wants to be unique.
What WAR is missing is sensible and consistent class names. ("C'mon. Orc Choppa? Dwarf Hammerer? Enough r's in that last one?)
Would you prefer a "sensible and consistent" class name like, oh, "warrior"? It has three R's! Oh no! Hammerer has two r's, I think you will live, and I fail to understand your point. The class names are consistent with the lore and the feel for each race, actually. It makes less sense for every race to have similar class names, really, like in other bland games. Orcs are rather stupid and brutish, hence a name like "Choppa". Dwarfs are blunt and gruff, hence a to-the-point name like "Hammerer". With the names and the gender thing, you seem to be calling for a bland world, "World of Fantasy MMORPG", with few defining characteristics. I applaud actions taken to make things different and more vibrant. Little things like interesting, thematic class names and a strong push to stick to defining lore all help accomplish this.
Simple standard class names sure worked for the current king of MMORPG's: WOW
And numerous silly class names for redundant class types have not worked much for EQ2 or DAOC. There is detail and there is needless detail. Some may like the WAR class names, but it's a turnoff to a lot of the more mature players; it just sounds like a kiddie PVP layout.
It is a laughable argument to claim that class names are to laud for WoW's success and to fault for EQ2's lack of success (well, lack of WoW-like success). You are taking one element and lending it far more value than it has in determining the fate of the game. It would be like me saying that McDonald's prepending many of their items with "Mc" (as in McNuggets) is a reason for their success, and that other restaurants should look to this for guidance in success. Really, it is price, convenience, marketing, and consistency, just like for WoW it was polish, accessibility, brand recognition, and marketing, not nine class names.
As for "mature players", this must be code for unimaginative, something apart from mature, as mature people still have a fun side. I hardly see how a career being called "Hammerer" makes it sound like a "kiddie PVP layout". But, hey, to each his own. I have always found that those who throw around "mature" tend to be the ones who have the most to prove, and dismiss things they view as childish in an effort to appear more adult than they really are. I mean, the nerve of not sounding sterile! We might start to have too much fun!
You will notice that Hammerer is there. Do you wonder why that is? Because it is in the IP! You know...the thing this game is based on? EA Mythic is not going to throw in careers that do not exist for the hell of it - Games Workshop made this stuff up, Mythic is putting it in MMORPG form. They want recognizable, rich careers in their game - iconic ones. When you think "Warrior", what image does that conjure up? A pretty boring, generic one. Think "Hammerer" and you get a heck of a lot more - a crazy Dwarf who loves hammers, especially when they are bashing in the head of an Orc.
When you go to the IP you will find the reasoning behind all of the game's setting there. If it is not mature enough for you, well, all I can say at this point is that millions of teenagers and millions of adults seem to love it - count me as one of them.
Oh, and at release I'll be happily playing my Knight of the Blazing Sun, with a big, feathery, iconic helmet and rich history, not a "Warrior" in "bland plate armour" with no history.
What WAR is missing is sensible and consistent class names. ("C'mon. Orc Choppa? Dwarf Hammerer? Enough r's in that last one?) Another thing they are missing which is a major no-no in public gaming is to allow all genders to play all classes. I know that WAR has its lore, but I think this is one area where they can bend things a little to the benefit and happiness of the majority. Lastly, they might be missing the world feel? Not sure about the latter, but if the game feels the least bit linear or contrived, this could destroy a major immersion factor.
'Orc Choppa' and 'Drawf Hammerer' are actally titles taken directly from the Warhammer mythos there never anything sensible about Warhammer..
I'm beggining to notice from this and other topics that players are expecting the Warhammer IP to be converted into a MMO 'standard' type just with the lore and themes attchatched... Much like LOTRO went through as that itself is still a 'cookie cutter' style mmo, even tho it has a LOTR 'theme' to it
However WAR again seems to be taking the reverse look at things, instead of changing the IP to suit the MMO industry (like as in adding a 'stealth' class, adding 'normal' class types, etc etc) it's taking the parts that suit the IP itself only and those which change 'how the world works' are left out preserving the whole 'style' of Warhammer... It's a welcome change imo as I'm a little bord of seeing the same game in a different 'skin', players may like this change, other may just be looking of another 'WoW' really dispite claims of disliking those 'clones' to begin with
They just need stealth like Fable or Splinter Cell or Riddick. Movement + position + lighting. They are even talking for the next Spinter Cell to have "crowd stealth." Point is, instant vanish stealth = exploitable Realistic stealth = takes skill Throw in distractions + disguises and it could work in a MMO Have the stealth class have to carry camo-kits based off of the local environment (shrubbery, trees, grass etc.) so that they could then hide and blend in so they could still ambush. Use distracting flash powders and slight of hand tricks to disorient their opposition, but NOT just magically disappear into thin air. Make it based off their skill in stealth + how good their camo is + how they are moving + the direction of their prey and which way they are facing+ night/day conditions or weather effects etc. etc and you could have realistic stealth that worked in a MMO. But I am very glad Mythic didn't go the "easy" way and just threw in magic-vanish stealth.
QFT.
Learn some skill if you want to get closer to a human enemy. Learn to hide behind cover.
It would be easy to implement skill based methods of camoflauge. You could also implement a class based cooldown skill to avoid showing on radar. You could use bits of enemy dead to camo yourself somewhat or foliage from the terrain.
However, having a button to press to go insta-invisible is a CRUTCH plain and simple. I am tired of ppl raising this exact type of thread. Whine piss moan... why no stealth? Boo hoo.
This is a skill based game, not an +invis +stun +big attack1 +big attack2 +restun +finishing combo type of kiddie kill game. Get over it.
Dude take your own advice will you! did you even read his post lmao. Go back to school cause your Comprehention skills need improvment.
"The most important thing is to have the design support the players in setting their own goals in both cooperative and competitive interaction with one another." - Ironore -
This has turned into a "omg stealth!" "omg oh noez ambush crit!"...
anyways, I think WAR might be missing...mounted combat?
I know this will no way be played into WAR initially and huge balance issues would arise but...cavalry and mounted combat is a huge determinant and tactic in Warhammer. Chariots, Heavy Cavalry, Cavalry Archers, Dragon and Monster Mounts, etc.
This would be great for WAR and could aid WAR making new innovative steps into MMO's.
I want Boar Cavalry! Mounted Spiders! Dragon Princes! Cold One Knights! Knights of the Blazing Sun! (oh wait... >.<) Chosen Knights of Chaos! (...and you think the Chosen footmen look badass) ...poor Dwarfs though (give them gyrocopters?)
What the hell is wrong with all this stealth talk? Either take it out or use the DAoC stealth system. It had the best stealth system in my opinion. The WoW stealth system is a joke.
L2 had no stealth class and had 3 different types of rogue classes (very good from C1-C4) . Stealth is a crutch for a weak played class/weak designed class IMO.
Frankly I am just stunned how little Mythic understands its customer base. They found out in beta that players wanted castle/keep seige......WHICH WAS NOT IN THE GAME !!!! ?? Now they are in the process of adding it. DDDDUUUHHHH !
May I suggest that they were well aware of how much players liked Open Field RvR and Keep Siege, but the problem I believe they were trying to reduce was the potential Realm imbalance issue.
Balance in Mythic's DAoC was always a consideration -- and to a lesser degree, they tried to cope with it.
I believe their thinking was that by having 25-man instanced battles, this would even up the imbalance issue.
And that is probably correct.
However, the players asked for, pleaded for and demanded MORE Open Field combat as well as the addition of Keep Siege warfare -- which DAoC players generally loved.
So the devs went back to the drawing board and attempted to add Open Field and Keep Siege warfare without sending the game spinning into an irreversible Realm imbalance.
And, I am sure throughout the rest of this last phase of beta and even somewhat into the opening months of retail release, they will still have to tinker with balance issues, nerfing classes, buffing classes, etc.
This won't please everyone, but in the long run it's usually better to bite the bullet and get it done.
Atleast one way they're attempting to handle imbalance issues is by adding NPC guards to Keeps so there's no late night ninja stealing of Keeps when people go to sleep. They still have to Fight for it and probably like hell too depending on how long you've had the keep.
WAR's devs are paying closer attention to the potentional player base more than some people give them credit for.
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
Everyone hated the 8 class system of WoW because pretty much every class had one pve tree and one pvp tree so you really only had 8 different classes the talent trees didnt change anything. If you are going to make a RvR game like WAR then its much better to have a wide spread of class like 24 because one big reason people play pvp/rvr is because of the varity of each fight. People bitched about the 8 class system all the time so Blizzrd keep saying they were putting in hero classes. Now SWG had a 100 different ways you could make a class, L2 had around 20 some different, GW has almost an unlimited amount of ways you could set up any archtype.
What WoW did was try and make everything in the game as simple as possible for younger and newer players so you got 8 classes. To pigeon hole classes isnt a good thing. WoW did so well compared to EQ2 because WoW had pvp and EQ2 didnt admit it or not that is the main reason. On top of that it was easy to level, ran on any system and was straight easy to play. That idea worked out with some things but some things the player base never really like and wanted more. You can find it all over their forums day in and day out.
I think you are going to be in the minority on this one. I'm happy stealth is out. I remember getting one shotted in DAoC by stealthed archers, and it sucked. WAR is going to be about fun PvP, and it's no fun to get killed without ever seeing who killed you. You have to realize that an MMORPG isn't exactly like a miniature game, so not everything will translate exactly.
And you should realise just because in a previous game stealth was imbalanced doesn't mean it cannot be balanced. and to alot of people being "about fun pvp" would mean including stealth. its a type of play style, some like it some hate it. same goes for support role or tank etc.
I think stealth should be on the game, definately make it weaker because DAoC stealth was way overpowered, too many 1-hit-KO's. I think no stealth will drive players away from the game, and if im right, and mythic realizes this, then they'll probably add stealth in an expansion.
What gankers want and mean by stealth: complete invisibility while moving behind another player
What is the middle ground: blending into the environment, only when not moving (ala elven stealth cap of Lord of the ring: if you move, it doesn't work). that would be a real "rogue" ability and would not be overpowered.
My addiction History: >> EQ1 2000-2004 - Shaman/Bard/Wizard/Monk - nolife raid-whore >> WoW 2004-2009 + Cataclysm for 2 months - hardcore casual >> Current status : done with MMO, too old for that crap.
Comments
Pre NF Daoc PVP was the best I have ever played. After NF It will still good but wasn't balenced.
Would you prefer a "sensible and consistent" class name like, oh, "warrior"? It has three R's! Oh no! Hammerer has two r's, I think you will live, and I fail to understand your point.
The class names are consistent with the lore and the feel for each race, actually. It makes less sense for every race to have similar class names, really, like in other bland games. Orcs are rather stupid and brutish, hence a name like "Choppa". Dwarfs are blunt and gruff, hence a to-the-point name like "Hammerer".
With the names and the gender thing, you seem to be calling for a bland world, "World of Fantasy MMORPG", with few defining characteristics. I applaud actions taken to make things different and more vibrant. Little things like interesting, thematic class names and a strong push to stick to defining lore all help accomplish this.
Simple standard class names sure worked for the current king of MMORPG's: WOWAnd numerous silly class names for redundant class types have not worked much for EQ2 or DAOC.
There is detail and there is needless detail. Some may like the WAR class names, but it's a turnoff to a lot of the more mature players; it just sounds like a kiddie PVP layout.
Would you prefer a "sensible and consistent" class name like, oh, "warrior"? It has three R's! Oh no! Hammerer has two r's, I think you will live, and I fail to understand your point.
The class names are consistent with the lore and the feel for each race, actually. It makes less sense for every race to have similar class names, really, like in other bland games. Orcs are rather stupid and brutish, hence a name like "Choppa". Dwarfs are blunt and gruff, hence a to-the-point name like "Hammerer".
With the names and the gender thing, you seem to be calling for a bland world, "World of Fantasy MMORPG", with few defining characteristics. I applaud actions taken to make things different and more vibrant. Little things like interesting, thematic class names and a strong push to stick to defining lore all help accomplish this.
Simple standard class names sure worked for the current king of MMORPG's: WOWAnd numerous silly class names for redundant class types have not worked much for EQ2 or DAOC.
There is detail and there is needless detail. Some may like the WAR class names, but it's a turnoff to a lot of the more mature players; it just sounds like a kiddie PVP layout.
I have to disagree with more "Mature" players enjoying a list similar to WoW's 6 or 7 classes in Warhammer.
I would much rather have 24 to choose from. Remember, everyone wants to be unique.
Regardless
It is a laughable argument to claim that class names are to laud for WoW's success and to fault for EQ2's lack of success (well, lack of WoW-like success). You are taking one element and lending it far more value than it has in determining the fate of the game. It would be like me saying that McDonald's prepending many of their items with "Mc" (as in McNuggets) is a reason for their success, and that other restaurants should look to this for guidance in success. Really, it is price, convenience, marketing, and consistency, just like for WoW it was polish, accessibility, brand recognition, and marketing, not nine class names.
As for "mature players", this must be code for unimaginative, something apart from mature, as mature people still have a fun side. I hardly see how a career being called "Hammerer" makes it sound like a "kiddie PVP layout". But, hey, to each his own. I have always found that those who throw around "mature" tend to be the ones who have the most to prove, and dismiss things they view as childish in an effort to appear more adult than they really are. I mean, the nerve of not sounding sterile! We might start to have too much fun!
Finally, as a coup de grace, try this link.
You will notice that Hammerer is there. Do you wonder why that is? Because it is in the IP! You know...the thing this game is based on? EA Mythic is not going to throw in careers that do not exist for the hell of it - Games Workshop made this stuff up, Mythic is putting it in MMORPG form. They want recognizable, rich careers in their game - iconic ones. When you think "Warrior", what image does that conjure up? A pretty boring, generic one. Think "Hammerer" and you get a heck of a lot more - a crazy Dwarf who loves hammers, especially when they are bashing in the head of an Orc.
When you go to the IP you will find the reasoning behind all of the game's setting there. If it is not mature enough for you, well, all I can say at this point is that millions of teenagers and millions of adults seem to love it - count me as one of them.
Oh, and at release I'll be happily playing my Knight of the Blazing Sun, with a big, feathery, iconic helmet and rich history, not a "Warrior" in "bland plate armour" with no history.
'Orc Choppa' and 'Drawf Hammerer' are actally titles taken directly from the Warhammer mythos there never anything sensible about Warhammer..
I'm beggining to notice from this and other topics that players are expecting the Warhammer IP to be converted into a MMO 'standard' type just with the lore and themes attchatched... Much like LOTRO went through as that itself is still a 'cookie cutter' style mmo, even tho it has a LOTR 'theme' to it
However WAR again seems to be taking the reverse look at things, instead of changing the IP to suit the MMO industry (like as in adding a 'stealth' class, adding 'normal' class types, etc etc) it's taking the parts that suit the IP itself only and those which change 'how the world works' are left out preserving the whole 'style' of Warhammer... It's a welcome change imo as I'm a little bord of seeing the same game in a different 'skin', players may like this change, other may just be looking of another 'WoW' really dispite claims of disliking those 'clones' to begin with
Bring on the WARRRRGGHH!
Learn some skill if you want to get closer to a human enemy. Learn to hide behind cover.
It would be easy to implement skill based methods of camoflauge. You could also implement a class based cooldown skill to avoid showing on radar. You could use bits of enemy dead to camo yourself somewhat or foliage from the terrain.
However, having a button to press to go insta-invisible is a CRUTCH plain and simple. I am tired of ppl raising this exact type of thread. Whine piss moan... why no stealth? Boo hoo.
This is a skill based game, not an +invis +stun +big attack1 +big attack2 +restun +finishing combo type of kiddie kill game. Get over it.
Dude take your own advice will you! did you even read his post lmao. Go back to school cause your Comprehention skills need improvment.
"The most important thing is to have the design support the players in setting their own goals in both cooperative and competitive interaction with one another." - Ironore -
anyways, I think WAR might be missing...mounted combat?
I know this will no way be played into WAR initially and huge balance issues would arise but...cavalry and mounted combat is a huge determinant and tactic in Warhammer. Chariots, Heavy Cavalry, Cavalry Archers, Dragon and Monster Mounts, etc.
This would be great for WAR and could aid WAR making new innovative steps into MMO's.
I want Boar Cavalry! Mounted Spiders! Dragon Princes! Cold One Knights! Knights of the Blazing Sun! (oh wait... >.<) Chosen Knights of Chaos! (...and you think the Chosen footmen look badass) ...poor Dwarfs though (give them gyrocopters?)
What the hell is wrong with all this stealth talk? Either take it out or use the DAoC stealth system. It had the best stealth system in my opinion. The WoW stealth system is a joke.
L2 had no stealth class and had 3 different types of rogue classes (very good from C1-C4) . Stealth is a crutch for a weak played class/weak designed class IMO.
Sig by WhiskeyJack1
Balance in Mythic's DAoC was always a consideration -- and to a lesser degree, they tried to cope with it.
I believe their thinking was that by having 25-man instanced battles, this would even up the imbalance issue.
And that is probably correct.
However, the players asked for, pleaded for and demanded MORE Open Field combat as well as the addition of Keep Siege warfare -- which DAoC players generally loved.
So the devs went back to the drawing board and attempted to add Open Field and Keep Siege warfare without sending the game spinning into an irreversible Realm imbalance.
And, I am sure throughout the rest of this last phase of beta and even somewhat into the opening months of retail release, they will still have to tinker with balance issues, nerfing classes, buffing classes, etc.
This won't please everyone, but in the long run it's usually better to bite the bullet and get it done.
~ Ancient Membership ~
Atleast one way they're attempting to handle imbalance issues is by adding NPC guards to Keeps so there's no late night ninja stealing of Keeps when people go to sleep. They still have to Fight for it and probably like hell too depending on how long you've had the keep.
WAR's devs are paying closer attention to the potentional player base more than some people give them credit for.
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
Everyone hated the 8 class system of WoW because pretty much every class had one pve tree and one pvp tree so you really only had 8 different classes the talent trees didnt change anything. If you are going to make a RvR game like WAR then its much better to have a wide spread of class like 24 because one big reason people play pvp/rvr is because of the varity of each fight. People bitched about the 8 class system all the time so Blizzrd keep saying they were putting in hero classes. Now SWG had a 100 different ways you could make a class, L2 had around 20 some different, GW has almost an unlimited amount of ways you could set up any archtype.
What WoW did was try and make everything in the game as simple as possible for younger and newer players so you got 8 classes. To pigeon hole classes isnt a good thing. WoW did so well compared to EQ2 because WoW had pvp and EQ2 didnt admit it or not that is the main reason. On top of that it was easy to level, ran on any system and was straight easy to play. That idea worked out with some things but some things the player base never really like and wanted more. You can find it all over their forums day in and day out.
Edit: Man I really cant type sometimes
Sig by WhiskeyJack1
And you should realise just because in a previous game stealth was imbalanced doesn't mean it cannot be balanced. and to alot of people being "about fun pvp" would mean including stealth. its a type of play style, some like it some hate it. same goes for support role or tank etc.
I think stealth should be on the game, definately make it weaker because DAoC stealth was way overpowered, too many 1-hit-KO's. I think no stealth will drive players away from the game, and if im right, and mythic realizes this, then they'll probably add stealth in an expansion.
What gankers want and mean by stealth: complete invisibility while moving behind another player
What is the middle ground: blending into the environment, only when not moving (ala elven stealth cap of Lord of the ring: if you move, it doesn't work). that would be a real "rogue" ability and would not be overpowered.
My addiction History:
>> EQ1 2000-2004 - Shaman/Bard/Wizard/Monk - nolife raid-whore
>> WoW 2004-2009 + Cataclysm for 2 months - hardcore casual
>> Current status : done with MMO, too old for that crap.