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another bad decision? still not listening?
ArcAngel3
Member Posts: 2,931
After responding to some recent posts asking about the state of the game, asking what it would take to get people back etc.. I have to question the decision not to rollback or provide classic servers.
The reason I'm questioning that NOW is that SOE seems surprised that they've added some stuff from pre-nge and still the vets haven't come back to the game.
What I want to say to the decision makers is that vets by the thousands told you in 2005 they didn't want the NGE with bits and pieces of their old stuff thrown back in. They said the same thing in 2006, and people are still saying in now.
If you ask people what they want, and they tell you pre-cu servers, when you don't listen, why are you surprised that they haven't come back?
Someone must have thought that adding back pre-cu bits to the NGE was a winning strategy. The problem with that is the players you want back told you they didn't want that, and you didn't listen, again.
The more I think of the whole track record of this game, the more convinced I am that I'm just going to continue enjoying myself elsewhere until someone else comes out with a StarWars MMO.
Comments
Did I miss something recently? Did SOE lift their heads up from their X-boxes long enough to notice that SWG has been stagnant for 2 years?
Did I miss something recently? Did SOE lift their heads up from their X-boxes long enough to notice that SWG has been stagnant for 2 years?
Will you be told........the devs are still playing RE4 and they are still trying to work out how capcom got there aiming system to work!!:)
I don't know if I honestly would like to come back even if they did bring back pre CU. SWG is starting to show its age, and with all the MMO's coming out next year (hopefully Bioware will make an announcement) I don't know if I'd even want to. I'm too burned out from what SOE has done and how it has treated its veteran players.
34 proffessions with 250 skillpoints would bring a lot back.
Yeah, I think I'm with you there Bane. I just don't know why SOE or LA thought that NGE plus old pieces of pre-cu would work. It's like this:
Service provider number 1: Well we didn't get the numbers we wanted from the WoW crowd, I wonder what would bring vets back to the game?
Vets: pre-cu servers!
Service provider number 2: I dunno, maybe if you give them a few pieces of their old game back. We could try camps, I don't know why we took those out in the first place.
Vets: we want pre-cu servers!
Service provider number 1: Yeah, yeah that's a good idea, let's try that and add back a few other pieces every so often too.
Vets: We're telling you we want pre-cu servers!
Service provider number 2: (two years later) Hey this isn't working, you know I got this crazy idea, what about pre-cu servers? (hypothetical)
Service provider 1: I think we told them we lost the code.
Service provider 2: Yeah, yeah we did, but they didn't buy it.
Service provider 1: Well then didn't we tell them we can't afford to run pre-cu servers?
Service provider 2: Yeah, but I'm starting to think we can't afford NOT to.
Service provider 1: O.k. you know maybe we should try pre-cu servers.
Vets: meh, been way to long, with too much nonsense along the way, forget about it.
Did I miss something recently? Did SOE lift their heads up from their X-boxes long enough to notice that SWG has been stagnant for 2 years?
Will you be told........the devs are still playing RE4 and they are still trying to work out how capcom got there aiming system to work!!:)
lol
SoE has said from the very beginning that they 'Technically' can not do a roll back. But they never say exactly what 'Technically' means.
My theory (and I get flamed for this all the time) is that 'Technically means that they simply can not. As in they are not allowed. I think that someone is not letting them have access to, or use of the CU/Pre-CU game system.
I often wonder if a game system can be actually owned. It is and idea after all. An invention if you will. Ideas get patented and copy right all the time. They become an Intellectual Property themselves with an actual owner(s). These copy right ideas get sold or maybe.....leased?
Could it be that SoE never actually held ownership of the Pre-CU/CU game system and instead had some kind of limited lease to use it that ran its course and/or got cancelled?
Now, if we decide to go ahead and run with that idea, then things kind of start to make sense (atleast to me).
SoE has admitted that the NGE was thier idea. But why such a drastic change? Could they have felt pushed into it? Well, if they lost the right to use a Patented game system, then it would make sense that the New game system would have to be completely different to avoid copy right laws.
Maybe it is why they are slowly adding things from the old game system into the new one, and still try and keep it as different as possible from the old gaming system..
I could run all day with this speculation lol...But in the end thats all it is....Speculation. Just something that I thought of to try and justify the situation.
Thanks for reading my totally unfounded conspiracy theory lol
P.S. Try and keep the flames to a minimum....I have sensitive skin
Oh, I think it's a lot simpler than that. I think they started to lose the in-depth knowledge about how the nuts and bolts of the game operate around december 2003, due to lack of process documentation and people leaving. Addons to the code (like JTL and updates) made the software ever more of a frankensteinian construct. Taking the stuff that was stored in the databases (houses, characters, items) and migrating them to another system is one thing, but actually going back to the old system? I think they don't understand how the old system works anymore. The guys doing the reverse-engineering for the EMU probably DO understand. I think they should just go and hire THEM.
=p
Linna
This is an interesting idea, but I strongly suspect that SOE would not have gotten themselves into a position where the game engine itself was not under their complete control. They were already somewhat out on a limb by contracting with LA for rights to the SW franchise...that's enough of of a risk all by itself. To compound the risk by not having absolute control over the game sans the SW veneer seems to me to be too great a risk.
Then again, so many decisions made by SOE seem to be driven by ego and emotion, not hard headed no nonsense business. The entire reaction to WoW that the CU and NGE represent, and the desperation of it, seem to have been driven by emotion...specifically anger that those upstarts made both SOE, the king of MMOs look bad, and LA's world class IP look bad.
Many on these boards don't buy into thise particular take, but then again, many can't fathom what business sense compelled them to go forward with the disaster, on multiple levels, of the NGE. I contend that the lack of business sense displayed by both supports the case that both the CU and NGE were committed to without regard to the numbers, but on the basis of emotion...specifically, desperation that SWG was not performing to expectations and to compound matters, WoW was kicking SOE ass in the marketplace.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
Yeah, from a technical sense, the idea that SOE lost the institutional memory, due to poor software change management practices, seems reasonable to me. I've agreed with Linna on this in the past and I probably will again.
From a project management POV, SWG never seemed to be organized to me, and my experience is based on work on military staffs and running a local ISP back in the 90's.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
Regarding SOE not rolling back to the Pre-CU or even CU systems? Several, IMO.
* Someone higher up, whether in SOE or in LA, maybe both, will not allow it.
* SOE / LA has decided on the NGE route, for better or worse. Well, worse actually
They've put in work in the NGE already for some time now, and I don't think they'll go back and undo all that work (again). As time went on, the chances of seeing Pre-NGE rollbacks or even a Pre-NGE server became less and less.
* IIRC, SOE cut down on the dev team size for SWG sometime after the NGE debacle. Don't ask for a link, since I can't remember where I read about it anymore.
* Pride. They can admit the NGE was a mistake. But they'll never allow the return of the previous system, as the single-largest admission of "Yeah, we were dumbasses."
Some have said that the Pre-NGE system is gone... kaput... destroyed. I say BS. Guys at regular jobs walk out with copies of files on them all the time, stuff that they're not supposed to have (remember the computers from the US and UK with gov't files of millions of people that went missing?). Not to mention backups and what not.
But, as I said in the past, even IF SOE rolled back or put in a Classic Server, it is simply too late. The wrongs from 2005 were done, many left in disgust, and a bunch of us are still irate about it, going into 2008. Other MMOs have come (and gone). Some good, some bad. But worst of all, even if SOE did go back, is that the player community SWG once had is gone and never, ever coming back. It's a shame, really.
What it should have been, at least to me:
Pre-NGE system + Bug fixes + Profession Reviews + Additional Content added since CU & NGE + Occasional Story Arcs, such as the whole Imperial Crackdown and prior
SWG would offer a type of gameplay that is still quite rare in the MMO world. The players would still be there, at least far more than the small numbers they have now, and still taking advantage of the Star Wars name. You'd have the deep, sophisticated gameplay of the Pre-NGE game, a community to go out and interact with. You'd have combat guys running around with non-combat (Entertainers, Crafters, etc), all of whom were vital in the Pre-NGE game. Sandbox gameplay you can say is a "niche" in the MMO these days. Everyone's trying to be overly simplistic or trying to tackle up high the WoW gorilla (who isn't really budging, IMO). But SWG was a home for us that did like the Sandbox + Star Wars world.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
It would bring me and my three account back, for a start.
It would bring me and my three account back, for a start.
I hate to admit it, but yes, there's a good chance I would be back with my five accounts, if that ever happened...
Linna
It would bring me and my three account back, for a start.
I hate to admit it, but yes, there's a good chance I would be back with my five accounts, if that ever happened...
Linna
It would take the removal of that level system for me. It divides the community too much IMO.
At this point the battle lines are clearly drawn and both sides are in the trenches.
Here is the furthest I am willing to compromise:
If SOE:
1. Fires Smed
2. Fires Cao and any other senior managers who were part of the NGE decision in 2005
3. Starts a discussion with the community about HOW they are going to bring back the NGE, be it by publishing the old system into the current game, or by a new revamp of the core that essentially brings it back
4. Opens classic servers in the meantime
If they do that, I will then consider them to have not only apologized, but taken appropriate measures to make good on that apology.
Until then, they will continue to bleed, not just from SWG, but from the -5000 industry faction they have acquired.
This is like World War II for me and many others. Nothing short of unconditional surrender and the end of the regime responsible for starting this mess will do. Until then, scorched earth. I like our chances to eventually get a better game that isn't SOE a lot more than I like SOE's chances to survive with their reputation and without our money.
A pure Pre-CU server? Sure... It'll get me back and at least 90% of my guild...
But will they listen? It seems hell needs to freeze over before they do.
"There's one MMO developer that doesn't want the money put in front of them - SOE"
I'm one of those who have argued against the "ego" or "pride" factor, believing SOE didn't reach the top in the industry being led by self-centered idiots. On the other hand, I've always been at a loss to fully explain what logic could lead them to such a disasterous choice.
While I can't accept "ego" in the traditional sense, I can accept "panic" or "desperation" as a valid emotional reason for the NGE. It fills all requirements as an explaination.
Back to the topic - SOE is listening. Reading between the lines, I've concluded they would love to roll back or open classic servers. Something more than stubborness is stopping them, whether it is licensing, technical issues or simple cost (my choice). It doesn't matter now; that ship has sailed.
If (if!!!) Bioware's upcoming "online entertainment" will be Star Wars based MMO, SOE maybe will launch pre-NGE servers, otherwise they will end up having zero subs. If not - It never gonna happen, too much investment for a very doubtfull targeting group because even big part of 2003-04 crowd won't come back already and their overall numbers were not that huge even at the glory days comparing to current market monsters.
Exactly. People are still complaining about SOE not rolling back to Pre-CU. Guess what, if they did do that, they'd lose 50% of their remaining customers easily, and most of the old vets have moved on so they would not resub. As fond of the old game as I am, I would not go back to that TKM in composite filled buggy POS game, with no collision detection, no Z axis, and not to mention, still laggy servers and client. It's just too old.
My theory on why SOE won't bring back Pre-CU is because right after the NGE hit Bioware started making it's Star Wars based MMO and this would prevent SOE from do anything else to SWG. Think about it, since the NGE hit and soon after Obiwan expansion, there has been no more expansions for SWG. All SOe is aloud to do to SWG is debug and add some type of random content to keep the masses (all 200 of them) happy.
Just a theory, I'm sure it has plenty of holes in it, but it's nice to think this might be the case
I Reject your Reality and Substitute it with My Own!
Exactly. People are still complaining about SOE not rolling back to Pre-CU. Guess what, if they did do that, they'd lose 50% of their remaining customers easily, and most of the old vets have moved on so they would not resub. As fond of the old game as I am, I would not go back to that TKM in composite filled buggy POS game, with no collision detection, no Z axis, and not to mention, still laggy servers and client. It's just too old.
/agreedSOE screwed the pooch by doing the following:
Instead of balancing out what was already existent, they implemented the CU. The CU wasn't bad, but it killed socializing in groups thanks to the level-based system. Sorry, level + skill base didn't work that well. It could have if it was done properly, but it wasn't - it segregated the players. No one wants to group with a level 54, and the level 54 would get no XP when grouped with level 80.
Well, obviously it didn't work the way they expected, and with the popularity of WoW - they thought "Lets clone the WoW gameplay a bit, and while were at it, make combat more interactive!" So we got the NGE. The NGE is a slow/quick poison. Quick in that it caused so many people to leave all at once, and slow because it just keeps degrading the game more and more with each update.
Even if they could "roll-back", people would be pissed because they'd have to work to get Jedi again. Wouldn't hurt my feelings any, but a rollback would mean going back to character stats, item, etc that were there over two years ago. All things in-between would be gone. Including Kashyyyk and Mustafar.
I don't see them rolling back to Pre-CU. Doubtful they'll even go back to CU.
Exactly. People are still complaining about SOE not rolling back to Pre-CU. Guess what, if they did do that, they'd lose 50% of their remaining customers easily, and most of the old vets have moved on so they would not resub. As fond of the old game as I am, I would not go back to that TKM in composite filled buggy POS game, with no collision detection, no Z axis, and not to mention, still laggy servers and client. It's just too old.
They don't even have 50K players anymore (nowhere near that) and they'd get at least 50K for classic server. Besides they don't even have to do that, they can keep the NGE going and just offer alternate servers. But they won't. Smed isn't that smart.
I have considered how much pride $OE and teh Smedz actually has to do with not rolling back to pre-CU earlier or opening new pre-CU servers now. If there is one thing that truly rules the roost at $OE, and that is unadulterated greed. They would sell out their very souls in the name of the almighty dollar (they have already sacrificed their reputations long ago), so how much does pride really matter? I suspect that there are actual barriers that those idiots can't over come (probably self-created to a large extent), such as contractual issues with LA upon the creation of every revamp done. There is also the stupidity factor which continues on without any accountability, which enables them to step over a dollar for a shiney, new penny over and over again.
LA's silence has been 'deafening' in regards to any classic servers or roll backs, but they are content letting those who created the NGE fiasco dangle over the fiery rage of the betrayed consumers. I can't say I blame them. I also believe LA wants to distance itself further from the likes of $OE before any major release of future games....better to see SWG fade out with less than 25k active subs.
Exactly. People are still complaining about SOE not rolling back to Pre-CU. Guess what, if they did do that, they'd lose 50% of their remaining customers easily, and most of the old vets have moved on so they would not resub. As fond of the old game as I am, I would not go back to that TKM in composite filled buggy POS game, with no collision detection, no Z axis, and not to mention, still laggy servers and client. It's just too old.
The thing is, rolling back the entire game to preCU would be a gamble, one where they're hoping that pissing off their existing player base would be made up for by getting back much of their old one.
They tried a similar stunt two years ago, and they got burned bad.
Such a move would also just further their reputation as being untrustworthy.
The thing is, they've dug a hole with the NGE and the way out...classic servers...they've dismissed as "too expensive" because they'd have to maintain two code bases, and essentially be running two games. Apparently LA ruled out two side by side SWGs long ago. Why this is, when it's well known that LA is if anything more Ferengi than SOE, and that two SWGs would probably allow them to get a lot of subscription revenue they otherwise would not, eludes me, but I'm assuming that they have run some numbers and don't think they'd get the same percentage return with two versions running as opposed to one, and therefore they've ruled it out.
I know there are a lot of people who take the "WW II" approach...that unless SOE cans Smedly, purges the SWG staff of any taint of NGE responsible parties, that they won't come back. What SOE did with the CU and the NGE was destroy consumer confidence and trust, and that's ridiculously hard to get back We see this in the larger economy with the subprime lending mess; trust has been eroded, and once you've done that, you're screwed. It's next to impossible to get back. SOE is in the same mess, so much so that every last property they're associated with is tainted by it.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
I'm sure Smed would like to spell out exactly what LA's role was in the whole deal, but he can't. I'm also fairly confident that some SOE folks would have loved to try classic servers, but they weren't allowed to.
I think we know some of the reasons behind these decisions, but it always seems like some of the reasons are withheld and/or hidden behind NDAs. While this is understandable from a corporate and legal point of view, it doesn't really allow for the kind of honest communication strategy that builds trust.