Originally posted by CleffyII I think its a little presumptious to really judge a game 3 months from release on broken features. I can't think of any mmo in history that had a pristine flawless game 3 months before release. Trust me, most mmos have key features broken this far from release. Anyways, I still think both games are just hot air of Bullshit until I see something that plays like what they are promising its just vaporware. In all actuality both companies are promising more then they can actually deliver so I wouldn't be surprised if both games flop but I will give them both a try.
I dont see how EA Mythic is promising anything that they cant accomplish. They dont promise the world, they just take elements from DAoC and WoW and throw them together in the Warhammer Universe with some new features added on top. With the financial backing of EA, I am pretty confident they will release a pretty polished game with all the features working as they say they will. They are very honest about it, and they admit they wont have "perfect" balance and will have to keep tweaking till the game dies.
I think WAR is the safe bet and AoC is the risky one.
I will try out WAR for sure. I will only try out AoC if it is released before WAR.
Greetings
If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site : http://mmodata.blogspot.be/ Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
Originally posted by SLI2000 War will be more popular than AoC just because it's a WoW clone
Flamebait
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I want to get away from MMO's that want to be like or similar in anyway to WoW. That game has worn me out mentally with the guild hoppers, l33t speakers and overall immaturity that came with it. AoC for me keeps my hope alive that at least some of these people won't be going to AoC and will go with WAR.
I think the cartoony style graphics in WAR has lost my interest too, while I like the fact that WoW can pretty much run on anything WAR might not yet still seems too much of a cartoon styled mmo. The pure fact that AoC has stated from the getgo that they were aiming at a mature audience made me happy and the decision easy.
I will try (buy both but not at release) and look forward to AoC the most because
WAR has immature humor AoC seems to be targeting a more mature crowd WAR's character customization seems standardized AoC seems to have deeper character customization WAR is primarily PvP AoC seems to be PvP with a lot of PvE WAR does not seem to have world immersion features such as non-instance houses AoC, I think, will have the world immersion extras that are underrated WAR's graphics look nice AoC's graphics look great
I am really looking forward to Elder Scrolls the most, though.
Ok I have a could of questions for you.
First, where do you get the basis that WAR has immature humor? If it follows the IP it has some, but mostly its verry subtle, yet verry funny humor that only people with a brain will catch/get.
Character customization your just guessing on since no one, unless your in the beta for both has any clue what one will offer that the other doest, so...where are you getting info on BOTH games customization to make your judgement?
Third. Have you dont ANY research on WAR at all or are you just looking to bash one game because your choice isnt doing so well on hype or the polls? WAR (at least from what the devs say and have released podcasts for) will have PLENTY of PvE and they are making it so the PvE matters in the overall war in the game.
And the biggest qustion is where do you get the idea that AoC is going for a mature crowd and WAR will have the immature crowd? Its actually going to be the oposite IMO. AoC putting "Mature" on there box is imediatly going to attract the immature crowd. "OOOOO this game has BOOBS how do I convince MoM to get it for me" I see it happening alot more with AoC than WAR. However just like every game, there will be immature people playing it.
All in all I plan on trying both just like you. I felt the need to defend WAR alittle bit with oposite opinions than yours, since in reality neither of us know what will be good, or bad with either game untill we play it. My personal opinion is I am going to enjoy WAR more because of being able to RvR from level 1 if I want, or PvE if I want depending on how I feel. The only other concern I have with AoC is it is going to leave out alot of people with....not so new comp gear. While some argue that is a bonus (parents dont buy there kids $1500+ computers for gaming) but the system requirements are still going to leave out ALOT of people. Alot of my friends wont be able to play because they cant afford a new rig because of having a family/morgage ect.
I will try (buy both but not at release) and look forward to AoC the most because
WAR has immature humor AoC seems to be targeting a more mature crowd WAR's character customization seems standardized AoC seems to have deeper character customization WAR is primarily PvP AoC seems to be PvP with a lot of PvE WAR does not seem to have world immersion features such as non-instance houses AoC, I think, will have the world immersion extras that are underrated WAR's graphics look nice AoC's graphics look great
I am really looking forward to Elder Scrolls the most, though.
Wow this is the worst comparising ever.
You say 5 times seems/seem, 1 time I think and you are looking at the graphics months before the launch... Where are your points based on?
I was going to try both but now I think I'm just going to do Warhammer. I've learned too much about the current state of AoC and Funcom to want to play or give them a monthly subscription. If I was an investor I would stay the hell away. That and its community is a big thumbs down, they spend too much time flaming other games and other opinions and not enough time worrying about their own.
I dont see anything innovative with WAR. The PvP seems forced and scripted so I will go with AoC.
Stuff like this gets on my nerves a bit. Everyone harps on about sand-box mmo's, we dont want to be told what to do, but really when it comes down to it you did some sense of direction otherwise you are just mincing about for no reason. The PvP in Warhammer does have a sense of direction, reems of lore building up the intense hatred between the races so you KNOW why you are fighting for the capitals, forts etc. Running about and seeing some random person and going oohh ill kill him means nothing.
There are exceptions, EVE for example. I tried playing it and unfortunately it did not keep me entertained long enough to get to the massively exciting PvP wars between the player built organisation (i got too lonely Just reading about the politics between organisations in this game is interesting. However, AoC does not have the scope and playability to achieve this in the long run. It may just turn into a fragfest.
Ignoring Warhammer just because it has a deep lore and history between the factions is absurd.
I think its a little presumptious to really judge a game 3 months from release on broken features. I can't think of any mmo in history that had a pristine flawless game 3 months before release. Trust me, most mmos have key features broken this far from release.
Anyways, I still think both games are just hot air of Bullshit until I see something that plays like what they are promising its just vaporware. In all actuality both companies are promising more then they can actually deliver so I wouldn't be surprised if both games flop but I will give them both a try.
I dont see how EA Mythic is promising anything that they cant accomplish.
They dont promise the world, they just take elements from DAoC and WoW and throw them together in the Warhammer Universe with some new features added on top. With the financial backing of EA, I am pretty confident they will release a pretty polished game with all the features working as they say they will. They are very honest about it, and they admit they wont have "perfect" balance and will have to keep tweaking till the game dies.
I think WAR is the safe bet and AoC is the risky one.
I will try out WAR for sure. I will only try out AoC if it is released before WAR.
Greetings
I don't think you understand how EA works. EA will only give enough money to make the game. They won't keep piling money onto it until its perfect, thats not what EA is about. Also EA doesn't have as direct a hand in this as they typically do. If they did then you would be hearing about WARs very sophisticated rendering engine to create ultra-realistic graphics.
Also you don't take an engine and re-use it for a game when the original engine was developed with the last generation. Its just not effecient, and they would have to go back and redo the code to be more modern. It would be faster to build the engine again from scrap.
As far as PVP goes, I don't think Mythic can capture the mass pvp aspect that is WAR. DAoC had mass PVP, but not really organized mass PVP. It was more PVP just for the sake of PVP. Ontop of that there was the early balance issues. Whats particular bad from a speculative sense since thats all I can assert as of right now on both games. Mythic didn't seem to do enough with the combat to make the PVP a meaningful experience. The combat systems in mmos is really where you can expand upon in mmos, and WAR is adopting an old and generic combat system. This may draw the life out of PVP being good, and from hands on reviews from people who played the game, it played lackluster at the moment.
Cleffy, your waiting for RO2 and AoC ? both of the games are very different in any way possible and still im looking for them both as well and Aion is on my list too... looks promising game for being from asia
Originally posted by CleffyII I think its a little presumptious to really judge a game 3 months from release on broken features. I can't think of any mmo in history that had a pristine flawless game 3 months before release. Trust me, most mmos have key features broken this far from release. Anyways, I still think both games are just hot air of Bullshit until I see something that plays like what they are promising its just vaporware. In all actuality both companies are promising more then they can actually deliver so I wouldn't be surprised if both games flop but I will give them both a try.
I dont see how EA Mythic is promising anything that they cant accomplish. They dont promise the world, they just take elements from DAoC and WoW and throw them together in the Warhammer Universe with some new features added on top. With the financial backing of EA, I am pretty confident they will release a pretty polished game with all the features working as they say they will. They are very honest about it, and they admit they wont have "perfect" balance and will have to keep tweaking till the game dies. I think WAR is the safe bet and AoC is the risky one. I will try out WAR for sure. I will only try out AoC if it is released before WAR.
Greetings
I don't think you understand how EA works. EA will only give enough money to make the game. They won't keep piling money onto it until its perfect, thats not what EA is about. Also EA doesn't have as direct a hand in this as they typically do. If they did then you would be hearing about WARs very sophisticated rendering engine to create ultra-realistic graphics. Also you don't take an engine and re-use it for a game when the original engine was developed with the last generation. Its just not effecient, and they would have to go back and redo the code to be more modern. It would be faster to build the engine again from scrap. As far as PVP goes, I don't think Mythic can capture the mass pvp aspect that is WAR. DAoC had mass PVP, but not really organized mass PVP. It was more PVP just for the sake of PVP. Ontop of that there was the early balance issues. Whats particular bad from a speculative sense since thats all I can assert as of right now on both games. Mythic didn't seem to do enough with the combat to make the PVP a meaningful experience. The combat systems in mmos is really where you can expand upon in mmos, and WAR is adopting an old and generic combat system. This may draw the life out of PVP being good, and from hands on reviews from people who played the game, it played lackluster at the moment.
DAoC did not have organised PvP ??? Mythic didn't seem to do enough with the combat to make the PVP a meaningful experience ???
I don't know what game you played, but if you ever seriously played DAoC, you would know that Keeps and Relics gave all the meaning to DAoC you ever needed in PvP ( RvR ). Honestly it was exactly that what made the game great, the Realm Pride, the RvR ... It made you roleplay automatically even if you didnt want or cared to, because you hated your enemy and would give your blood to defend your relics. One would actually stop doing a PvE Raid with 50+ people just to go defend the Relic keep, something unheard of in most other mmorpg's. Then we arent even talking about taking keeps so you could gain access to a large PvE/PvP dungeon, named Darkness Falls. Or, just killing to gain more RP's and generate killspam to make your name notorious to your enemies.
Sure nowadays DAoC is failing because of various issues, but during the SI era, DAoC rocked and there WAS meaning to PvP ( RvR ).
And to add to your comment of EA, I think they finally understand they have to be more patient and polish the game, as Mythic got another 6 months to finish/polish the game.
Greetz
If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site : http://mmodata.blogspot.be/ Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
amazing to see that theres more people going for warhammer and that they are really ready to make a statement about it than just click vote button and be quiet about it
i really thought that Conan would have been the one that most of the people would clearly vote for but yea, im too a bit concerned that how funcom is going to pull this out, the game really dont look like anything special and all characters and armors and such doestn look that good at all, i think its mainly the IP that makes me want to try it out
Problem with War it is being done by Mythic. They have not yet met the game they can't screw up. Really is a shame as the game could have been pretty good with a decent developer. Not sure about Funcom and Conan, will have to wait and see.
im not too keen on orcs and elfs... i want something different than basic fantasy-style... and cartoony designs and little anklebasher-dwarfs are a BIG no no for me
and because of all those things i've mentioned now or before in this thread i have my eyes set on few other games as well
oh, and all warhammer haters, try not to make too obvious statements, like how all the wow-kiddies should go ruin warhammers community instead of Conan's.
keep it this thread clean of flamebaits,
we have so many adults here in forums so we should try to act like one
I won't vote in the poll because none of the choices feels quite right to me. I'm not sure if I'll try War or not. I haven't followed it closely enough to have a good feel for what it will be like. It's certain that I'll wait and see what people are saying about it.
I am sure that I won't be playing AoC. It looks to me like they are doing everything they can to try to push people into those types of guilds that make you feel like you're surrounded by bosses and co-workers rather than friends. And I absolutely hate that.
They are trying too hard to make people dependant on guilds and when people are dependant on guilds they become slaves to their guild.
Also, although I can't prove this, I am convinced that AoC is going to be another "farm raids for loot" game. If someone else says it won't be I'm not going to argue about it now but if you doubt me just remember that I said it would be. And then if it turns out that I'm right and you're curious how I knew, well then you can ask me.
The combat in AoC, I don't know. Before beta testing I didn't expect it to live up to the hype so I'm more or less indifferent about it now. Too many people have been expecting it to be some great revolution in gameplay. It was inevitable that they would be let down.
seriously guys, take a look at the real world here. AoC is a Indie Film and WAR is a blockbuster. While AoC i'm sure is going to kick ass and be a great game overall it will wont be much competition for WAR. The way i see it WAR is going to grab massive chucks out of the WoW market and everyone else looking for the fast paced rvr.
AoC isn't looking for the same population of people WAR is going for, so its really not going to matter. If AoC releases a few months before WAR the population will be pretty big just due to the fact DAOC is dying and WoW is... well. WoW is just horrible but the last resort for millions of people. AoC population will be alot of fun but its going to take a massive hit as soon as WAR comes out. one way or another most people will go play WAR for atleast a few months to see what the end game is like and they will then make th choice between returning to AoC or staying with WAR.
So yeah, as far as i can see, AoC will have massive populations ( prob even a little too big..) if it comes out atleast 3 months before WAR, it will take a massive hit no matter how good it is when WAR is out because everyone is going to want to atleast try WAR. And then after a few months you will get the population of AoC increasing getting stable.
I'll be more interested in seeing what happens to WoW and LoTr populations when both AoC and WAR is out. I think AoC and WAR offer everything better then the anything WoW or Lotr can come up with.
Spoils of War - The quickest way of ending a war is to lose it.
Comments
I am gonna buy and play both
plus Darkfall !!! 
... and probably Huxley too.
War will be more popular than AoC just because it's a WoW clone
I would say I'm looking forward mostly to WAR but it will depend a lot on how the games turn out. They may as well both become total crap.
I dont see how EA Mythic is promising anything that they cant accomplish.
They dont promise the world, they just take elements from DAoC and WoW and throw them together in the Warhammer Universe with some new features added on top. With the financial backing of EA, I am pretty confident they will release a pretty polished game with all the features working as they say they will. They are very honest about it, and they admit they wont have "perfect" balance and will have to keep tweaking till the game dies.
I think WAR is the safe bet and AoC is the risky one.
I will try out WAR for sure. I will only try out AoC if it is released before WAR.
Greetings
If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site :
http://mmodata.blogspot.be/
Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
Flamebait
If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site :
http://mmodata.blogspot.be/
Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
I dont see anything innovative with WAR. The PvP seems forced and scripted so I will go with AoC.
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I want to get away from MMO's that want to be like or similar in anyway to WoW. That game has worn me out mentally with the guild hoppers, l33t speakers and overall immaturity that came with it. AoC for me keeps my hope alive that at least some of these people won't be going to AoC and will go with WAR.
I think the cartoony style graphics in WAR has lost my interest too, while I like the fact that WoW can pretty much run on anything WAR might not yet still seems too much of a cartoon styled mmo. The pure fact that AoC has stated from the getgo that they were aiming at a mature audience made me happy and the decision easy.
First, where do you get the basis that WAR has immature humor? If it follows the IP it has some, but mostly its verry subtle, yet verry funny humor that only people with a brain will catch/get.
Character customization your just guessing on since no one, unless your in the beta for both has any clue what one will offer that the other doest, so...where are you getting info on BOTH games customization to make your judgement?
Third. Have you dont ANY research on WAR at all or are you just looking to bash one game because your choice isnt doing so well on hype or the polls? WAR (at least from what the devs say and have released podcasts for) will have PLENTY of PvE and they are making it so the PvE matters in the overall war in the game.
And the biggest qustion is where do you get the idea that AoC is going for a mature crowd and WAR will have the immature crowd? Its actually going to be the oposite IMO. AoC putting "Mature" on there box is imediatly going to attract the immature crowd. "OOOOO this game has BOOBS how do I convince MoM to get it for me" I see it happening alot more with AoC than WAR. However just like every game, there will be immature people playing it.
All in all I plan on trying both just like you. I felt the need to defend WAR alittle bit with oposite opinions than yours, since in reality neither of us know what will be good, or bad with either game untill we play it. My personal opinion is I am going to enjoy WAR more because of being able to RvR from level 1 if I want, or PvE if I want depending on how I feel. The only other concern I have with AoC is it is going to leave out alot of people with....not so new comp gear. While some argue that is a bonus (parents dont buy there kids $1500+ computers for gaming) but the system requirements are still going to leave out ALOT of people. Alot of my friends wont be able to play because they cant afford a new rig because of having a family/morgage ect.
You say 5 times seems/seem, 1 time I think and you are looking at the graphics months before the launch... Where are your points based on?
I was going to try both but now I think I'm just going to do Warhammer. I've learned too much about the current state of AoC and Funcom to want to play or give them a monthly subscription. If I was an investor I would stay the hell away. That and its community is a big thumbs down, they spend too much time flaming other games and other opinions and not enough time worrying about their own.
Stuff like this gets on my nerves a bit. Everyone harps on about sand-box mmo's, we dont want to be told what to do, but really when it comes down to it you did some sense of direction otherwise you are just mincing about for no reason. The PvP in Warhammer does have a sense of direction, reems of lore building up the intense hatred between the races so you KNOW why you are fighting for the capitals, forts etc. Running about and seeing some random person and going oohh ill kill him means nothing.
There are exceptions, EVE for example. I tried playing it and unfortunately it did not keep me entertained long enough to get to the massively exciting PvP wars between the player built organisation (i got too lonely
Just reading about the politics between organisations in this game is interesting. However, AoC does not have the scope and playability to achieve this in the long run. It may just turn into a fragfest.
Ignoring Warhammer just because it has a deep lore and history between the factions is absurd.
good answers on both sides of opinions guys, just keep it clean of flamings and such arrogance
even though topics like these tend to get dirt on
I dont see how EA Mythic is promising anything that they cant accomplish.
They dont promise the world, they just take elements from DAoC and WoW and throw them together in the Warhammer Universe with some new features added on top. With the financial backing of EA, I am pretty confident they will release a pretty polished game with all the features working as they say they will. They are very honest about it, and they admit they wont have "perfect" balance and will have to keep tweaking till the game dies.
I think WAR is the safe bet and AoC is the risky one.
I will try out WAR for sure. I will only try out AoC if it is released before WAR.
Greetings
I don't think you understand how EA works. EA will only give enough money to make the game. They won't keep piling money onto it until its perfect, thats not what EA is about. Also EA doesn't have as direct a hand in this as they typically do. If they did then you would be hearing about WARs very sophisticated rendering engine to create ultra-realistic graphics.
Also you don't take an engine and re-use it for a game when the original engine was developed with the last generation. Its just not effecient, and they would have to go back and redo the code to be more modern. It would be faster to build the engine again from scrap.
As far as PVP goes, I don't think Mythic can capture the mass pvp aspect that is WAR. DAoC had mass PVP, but not really organized mass PVP. It was more PVP just for the sake of PVP. Ontop of that there was the early balance issues. Whats particular bad from a speculative sense since thats all I can assert as of right now on both games. Mythic didn't seem to do enough with the combat to make the PVP a meaningful experience. The combat systems in mmos is really where you can expand upon in mmos, and WAR is adopting an old and generic combat system. This may draw the life out of PVP being good, and from hands on reviews from people who played the game, it played lackluster at the moment.
Cleffy, your waiting for RO2 and AoC ? both of the games are very different in any way possible and still im looking for them both as well
and Aion is on my list too... looks promising game for being from asia
DAoC did not have organised PvP ???
Mythic didn't seem to do enough with the combat to make the PVP a meaningful experience ???
I don't know what game you played, but if you ever seriously played DAoC, you would know that Keeps and Relics gave all the meaning to DAoC you ever needed in PvP ( RvR ).
Honestly it was exactly that what made the game great, the Realm Pride, the RvR ... It made you roleplay automatically even if you didnt want or cared to, because you hated your enemy and would give your blood to defend your relics. One would actually stop doing a PvE Raid with 50+ people just to go defend the Relic keep, something unheard of in most other mmorpg's.
Then we arent even talking about taking keeps so you could gain access to a large PvE/PvP dungeon, named Darkness Falls. Or, just killing to gain more RP's and generate killspam to make your name notorious to your enemies.
Sure nowadays DAoC is failing because of various issues, but during the SI era, DAoC rocked and there WAS meaning to PvP ( RvR ).
And to add to your comment of EA, I think they finally understand they have to be more patient and polish the game, as Mythic got another 6 months to finish/polish the game.
Greetz
If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site :
http://mmodata.blogspot.be/
Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
warhammer. AoC jsut doesn;t look like for me.
I thinik most peopel will try both games and then settle on one. I plan to try WAR first, and then AoC second. In the end, both games will do well
Torrential
Torrential: DAOC (Pendragon)
Awned: World of Warcraft (Lothar)
Torren: Warhammer Online (Praag)
Mostly I'm looking forward WAR. Darkfall and Spellborn are the 2nd MMOs I'm most interested in and the last being AoC.
amazing to see that theres more people going for warhammer and that they are really ready to make a statement about it than just click vote button and be quiet about it
i really thought that Conan would have been the one that most of the people would clearly vote for but yea, im too a bit concerned that how funcom is going to pull this out, the game really dont look like anything special and all characters and armors and such doestn look that good at all, i think its mainly the IP that makes me want to try it out
Age of Conan by a long shot.
I hope WAR takes as many subscribers off WoW as it can though
keep AoC nice and clean.
You want cool armor and stats and all that jazz? go to WAR! they have a ton of that stuff! you want orcs and elves and all that? go to WAR! please,
Problem with War it is being done by Mythic. They have not yet met the game they can't screw up. Really is a shame as the game could have been pretty good with a decent developer. Not sure about Funcom and Conan, will have to wait and see.
im not too keen on orcs and elfs... i want something different than basic fantasy-style... and cartoony designs and little anklebasher-dwarfs are a BIG no no for me
and because of all those things i've mentioned now or before in this thread i have my eyes set on few other games as well
oh, and all warhammer haters, try not to make too obvious statements, like how all the wow-kiddies should go ruin warhammers community instead of Conan's.
keep it this thread clean of flamebaits,
we have so many adults here in forums so we should try to act like one
I won't vote in the poll because none of the choices feels quite right to me. I'm not sure if I'll try War or not. I haven't followed it closely enough to have a good feel for what it will be like. It's certain that I'll wait and see what people are saying about it.
I am sure that I won't be playing AoC. It looks to me like they are doing everything they can to try to push people into those types of guilds that make you feel like you're surrounded by bosses and co-workers rather than friends. And I absolutely hate that.
They are trying too hard to make people dependant on guilds and when people are dependant on guilds they become slaves to their guild.
Also, although I can't prove this, I am convinced that AoC is going to be another "farm raids for loot" game. If someone else says it won't be I'm not going to argue about it now but if you doubt me just remember that I said it would be. And then if it turns out that I'm right and you're curious how I knew, well then you can ask me.
The combat in AoC, I don't know. Before beta testing I didn't expect it to live up to the hype so I'm more or less indifferent about it now. Too many people have been expecting it to be some great revolution in gameplay. It was inevitable that they would be let down.
seriously guys, take a look at the real world here. AoC is a Indie Film and WAR is a blockbuster. While AoC i'm sure is going to kick ass and be a great game overall it will wont be much competition for WAR. The way i see it WAR is going to grab massive chucks out of the WoW market and everyone else looking for the fast paced rvr.
AoC isn't looking for the same population of people WAR is going for, so its really not going to matter. If AoC releases a few months before WAR the population will be pretty big just due to the fact DAOC is dying and WoW is... well. WoW is just horrible but the last resort for millions of people. AoC population will be alot of fun but its going to take a massive hit as soon as WAR comes out. one way or another most people will go play WAR for atleast a few months to see what the end game is like and they will then make th choice between returning to AoC or staying with WAR.
So yeah, as far as i can see, AoC will have massive populations ( prob even a little too big..) if it comes out atleast 3 months before WAR, it will take a massive hit no matter how good it is when WAR is out because everyone is going to want to atleast try WAR. And then after a few months you will get the population of AoC increasing getting stable.
I'll be more interested in seeing what happens to WoW and LoTr populations when both AoC and WAR is out. I think AoC and WAR offer everything better then the anything WoW or Lotr can come up with.
Spoils of War - The quickest way of ending a war is to lose it.
editt