IMO those are not and should not be called skills at all.The reason is because it takes nothing to learn them or for a better word EARN them.You click a skill item and wait for time to pass by then you get it.
While you consider the skill training system a detriment, most EVE players appreciate the scheme. You don't earn skills in other games, most times you are mindlessly bashing trees or something to level them up. Hardly a real challenge, so why bother with it?
1 planet exploration/mobs/housing/battles.
See SWG
2 Ship animations with you in 3rd or first person view actually maintaining a full set of skills to manouvre a ship.I mean with you actually inside the ship with tons of panels and instruments all around you.Perhaps you have a crew that you have to give each one specific set of instructions that can make or break your battles or quests.There should be alot more animation and hands on control for the gunnery part of the ship also.
Jump Gate will probably be more your style.
3 There really isn't a whole lot of animation in the game so the battles should be a heck of a lot more animated and exciting.
Actually, a real space battle would likely be a whole lot more like how EVE depicts them, and less like you see on Battlestar Galactica or Star Wars.
This game appeared to me anyhow as being a very simplistic/old game engine.IMO scrap this game and build it all over from scratch again using modern day tech and it would prolly rock. How realistic is it having huge ships with only you doing all the work?where is your crew? lol.I think only small one manned vessels should be all a single player can use,unless you travel the universe hiring/seeking out NPC 's to man your ship.Perhaps you have to fight battles to free mercenaries to fight with you.
Of course its not realistic to have you as the only crew, however it is a game. The idea of a crewed ship was bounced around during STO's development and it was determined to be unworkable.
We who enjoy EVE like it just fine like it is. Its a matter of personal preference really, and it might not be your kind of game. I find that it appeal more to people who read a lot, are used to using their imaginations instead of viewing video displays, and its just a different mindset.
No game can be everything to everyone, would be impossible to develop such a thing and do it well. I'd prefer they focus on improving the core game play and leave the other features you mentioned to another game.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I've never lost any skill points in Eve. I didn't realise you could.
The game is a hardcore timesink for sure. It takes hours to go anywhere. It takes months to get competative and it takes years to get yourself rocking.
It's pretty much a hardcore crowd too. There is no casual play. You can't just log in and join a battleground. It's going to take you 45 minutes to jump to a rumored combat zone and when you get there, there is no guarentee anyone else will have shown up.
This is of course amplified during the begining year and half, where, since you wont be able to solo anything you will first have to organise a raid group before you all go jumping off for PvP anywhere at all.
This game engine may be old, but it is state of the art. It runs fine on 56K, it allows 10's of thousands of players to join the same game and it runs on a laptop. Upping the graphics or the sytem requirments would reduce a lot of it's strengths. It's is still the record holder for simultaneously connected games. (By a factor of about 50).
It's no more complex or in depth than WoW. Combat has nothing like WoW or Guild Wars intracies. Unless you get into a raid it's standard button mashing and is simple fare. You don't have the 50 or 60 different buttons to choose from that you do in games such as WoW, but you certainly have a much bigger fear of dying.
This isn't really a manually controlled game. It is mainly played AFK. Chatting in chatrooms and watching TV makes up the bulk of your time with perhaps 30 secs of input every half an hour. Your wife won't get angry with you if you play this game. The raid won't notice if you leave your computer to make dinner for the kids. It operates on a different time scale to action titles, the pace is closer to Civilisation than Unreal.
When I bought this game, I also bought a nifty flight yoke to go with it. What laugh! You might think I would have been tragically disappointed at this point, but I wasn't at all.
I enjoy it, but it's a no brainer, background entertainment. You need to be doing something a little more stimulating at the same time for it to be fun.
A lot of new players have a hard time finding combat on their level, and feel they have to wait to train skills or earn isk to "get to the good stuff". Listening to the newb corp chats, you might draw the conclusion that there is nothing beyond pvp in eve online. Everything from what skills to train to what builds work for a ship are constantly debated with PVP in mind. The veterans in this game are sharks; swim with them at your own risk. Try running missions. They aren't as horrible as many people say they are, and you can actually focus on having fun instead of a grind. Just a suggestion.
People always forget, that there will always be a bigger fish in PvP. Even if you maxed all your skills for the Vagabond (best soloship ingame), you will feel very vulnerable. It just takes a specialized ship and you are dead.
It is true, you wont be competitive in most solo-engagements for a long time. But mostly because you lack understanding of game-mechanics. But you CAN be "competitive" in small gangs. A gang typically is a mixed Setup of hard hitters, electronic warfare and tacklers, who "catch" the prey and hold him there until the rest arrives. That part is very fun and can be done with a minimum of skillpoints.
So to get into pvp you will have to do several things: -Get into a Corp, preferrably 0.0. They will teach you how to pvp. I have never heard of a succesful 0.0 corp that does not teach their newbies how to use their ships. -Get some basic skills for a battlecruiser. Takes about two weeks, so you can make your own money. -Get some initial Money from your corp. A kickstart into eve, so to say. I mostly give out 1-2 million ISK to newbies who deserve it, that equals 3-4 fully fitted frigates. You will get frigates from your corp anyways. (Again, i have yet to see a succesfull 0.0 operating corporation that does not offer free frigs and modules to newbies. Everybody knows how difficult moneymaking for newbies is.)
Eve is not so hardcore for newbies, actually. You dont have to worry about the expensive ships and even get them for free. Your loss equals a minute of killing npcs for a one month old character. When i lose one of my expensive ships, ill run out of money and will have to take a short break from pvp to get the money back. Insurance does not work fot tech2-ships..
"another" hardcore game? LoL I wish there were more.
If you still with EVE you will find that as your knowledge of the game and your skillpoints increase EVE is less and less of an in-game time sink.
You can raise your skills and play the market just as effectively by logging in once a day for an hour as you can playing 60 hours a week.
Also if you continue playing you will realize that there are ships and setups that you love to fly that you can make enough ISK to replace in a few minutes. The rate you make ISK will continue to snowball until doing suicide missions in a 10mil ship with a 90mil setup is something you recoup from by playing the market overnight while you are sleeping IRL.
_______________________________ PM me when an MMO as good as UO was comes out.
I have been on the trial for a few days and I truly want to enjoy this game but why do I get the sense im in some kind of hardcore scam? Now im not bashing the game but this is how it feels to me, its one thing to loose your ships but to loose skills as well? On top of that the skills take a very long time so far mine can take up to 10 days I can just imagine what it will be at higher levels.
Now I dont mind hardcore games as long as I can play casually but I dont feel like this game is laid back as some people say, and I do enjoy pvp games just as much as I enjoy pve as long as it isnt cookie cutter. What is funny I am not really into sci fi unless its stargate but im finding I like everything about this game except the time sink and hardcore mentallity of this game.
I may be wrong here I just dont want to pay for a sub to learn im going to really dislike eve online. And if im wrong feel free to enlighten me thats why im here.
I guess you can say I really enjoyed city of heroes because it was fun and could be laid back but there was alot of other things that made me very bored with it.
I actually found it anything but hardcore.I kinda got bored playing it as the animations and overall gameplay lacked too many ideas that should have been in there.IMO those are not and should not be called skills at all.The reason is because it takes nothing to learn them or for a better word EARN them.You click a skill item and wait for time to pass by then you get it.It reminds me of RF online mining while i am not even playing the game.
This is what the game should have had and it would have rocked.
1 planet exploration/mobs/housing/battles. Other MMO's have this but don't have a good space setting. I advise you play SWG
2 Ship animations with you in 3rd or first person view actually maintaining a full set of skills to manouvre a ship.I mean with you actually inside the ship with tons of panels and instruments all around you.Perhaps you have a crew that you have to give each one specific set of instructions that can make or break your battles or quests.There should be alot more animation and hands on control for the gunnery part of the ship also. You are asking for Twitch combat it seems once again play SWG jump to lightspeed that has twitch combat space PvP tho its pretty poor. Also try reading EvE's lore a bit and it is explained why there is no Cockpit.
3 There really isn't a whole lot of animation in the game so the battles should be a heck of a lot more animated and exciting. So you want ultra unrealistic combat like you get in programs like Battlestar galactica do you? Well try out SWG jump to lightspeed. lots of flashy lights there to ammuse you and everyone moves like fighter planes rather than spaceships there.
This game appeared to me anyhow as being a very simplistic/old game engine Game engine is currently 1 year old now.IMO scrap this game and build it all over from scratch again using modern day tech and it would prolly rock. How realistic is it having huge ships with only you doing all the work? What do you want groupe controlled ships? where is your crew? lol ahh i see well your crew is in your ship manning the guns maintaining systems cleaning the Decks etc read the Lore..I think only small one manned vessels should be all a single player can use,unless you travel the universe hiring/seeking out NPC 's to man your ship.Perhaps you have to fight battles to free mercenaries to fight with you. Then make your own MMO im sure you will have fun doing that
It seems alot of your problems stemmed from not actually reading up on EvE. I advise you try out SWG. That game has ground combat and space combat. The sips move like fighter planes and there are lots of pretty explosions.
If however you want more realistic Space naval combat then EvE fits the bill. In realistic space combat ranges would be longer as friction is less of an issue so actually seeing another ship with the naked eye wont happen as often. Also larger ships don't manouver like Fighters as Bigger should Equel slower.
"Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Jean Rostand
I found the graphics quite nice in eve personally and the fighting looked great to me, I liked the way the combat was it reminded me of older games ive played in the past that had the same kind of combat. But I dont think eve is for me and thats ok I want some depth and challenge but not in this kind of game take care all.
EVE used to be a good sandbox. Now it's just another PvP/loot/grind game.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Yes KYLERAN i accept your response as an intelligent one.I know you are correct there is alot of players that follow your path of thinking, i tend to forget about them as i am not one them.I just wanted to point out what i expected from the game and what it could have done to make it a great game,but following your path of thought i wonder if it would have alienated those gamers i am not really sure.I in no way meant to bash the game ,like i said ,only wanted to give my view as to what i thought it should be.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Yes I was hoping it would be more of a sandbox it did turn out I was wrong, I really liked ryzom but I really could not get into the combat in that game. Eq1 to me was a sandbox it was my first mmorpg but man I loved it but I will never go to another time sink like that:)
Yes I was hoping it would be more of a sandbox it did turn out I was wrong, I really liked ryzom but I really could not get into the combat in that game. Eq1 to me was a sandbox it was my first mmorpg but man I loved it but I will never go to another time sink like that:)
No offense, but if you don't think EVE is a sandbox then you clearly have no idea what a sandbox game is. EVE is as sandbox as it gets. I noticed your thread in the EVE forum that you've done a trial but have never actually subscribed. This past time, you created three separate characters and now you're posting that you don't like it.
Yet you call EQ1 a sandbox.
Everquest was not a sandbox game. It was the first in a line of linear quest/raid based MMOs that fill the market right now. It was class-based, to the point of your character being almost identical stat/ability-wise as anyone else of the same level. There was a progression on gear that everyone of a certain class followed, and you had the same spells and abilities as anyone else of that level. Then at the end of the leveling treadmill, you worked on the same sets of gear that everyone else raided for, to get to the next raid. Everquest invented the point system now used in games like WoW, where you attend guild events and get points that you use to spend on loot drops.
Not speaking from an outsiders point of view either. I played on Rallos Zek, and then Zek when they merged, had a 65 cleric and a 65 enchanter, with access to a group of my friends' variety of high level characters, one being the main tank of the top raid guild on the server. So when you call Everquest a sandbox game, I immediately have to wonder what you were -really- expecting when you started to play EVE, since you clearly don't seem to know what a sandbox game is.
In sandbox games, you make your own fun. If you're not having fun with a certain aspect, you try another and another until you find your niche in the game. The content is created by the players as much as possible, and the game is made fun by finding a group of like-minded individuals who you can enjoy it with. There are no classes, and if there are, there are enough options to let you differentiate your character from another without simply wearing different gear than them.
A true sandbox is skill-based, not class based. There is usually a storyline, but it usually takes a backburner to what the players are creating for themselves. There can be quests, but in any skill-based game I've played these quests are not the end-all be-all for a player. They don't give your character a huge advantage, and are usually just for advancement or for status items.
Character advancement is usually achieved at your own pace, because you don't really worry about falling behind in gear. There should always be a role for your character even if you are not as high up in the food chain as another player. It allows players to do things together without segregating them because of level or gear.
Players are usually allowed to do whatever they want in these games. If they can find a way to have fun, they do it. They're not required to adhere to a certain way simply because that's "the way it is".
Look there is no reason to take offense that I did not think eve was much of a sandbox and I never said it was not one at all im just saying I was hoping for more freedom yes its differant then most games but ive felt more freedom from games like ryzom and and eq1 and some of that just may be my opinion if you dont like it thats not my fault, I already decided it was not for me yet your here trying to argue with me because I dont think its that much of a sandbox.
And by the way just because I created a character more then once does not mean I have not played the game. There is more I dislike about the game then just some of the lack of freedom I personally feel from it.
Oh and by the way your comment about eq not being a sandbox I disagree with I got to choose pretty much almost anything I wanted to be I could choose to explore level what zones I wanted to fight or explore or or if I wanted to group farm quest, and for the spell casting classes there was a wide variety in your spell combinations, the game had so much content and nothing hardly looked the same. You got to specialize what skills you wanted more over there others and dont get me started on the depth of aa skills. I played eq1 long before luclin I think I would know if it was not a sandbox. Now I know eq1 could have been more of a sandbox but in my opinion it had alot I would want in a sandbox.
And by the way I already said in my opinion it felt like a sandbox ealier.
But Everquest was, and still is, simply not a sandbox game.
Everquest, was a raid-based, class-based, gear-based game. Piece those all together, and you definitely don't get a sandbox.
It is the polar opposite of a sandbox game, and I am willing to bet that 99% of the people here will agree with me on that, even if they don't like sandbox type MMOs, regardless of what game it is that they dislike. I loved the game when I played it, but I found a type of game that I liked more, where I had 10 times the amount of freedom than I had in Everquest.
I understand you liked it, but what I'm saying is that if you liked it then perhaps you should have originally looked in a different place for a game than EVE, because EVE is as sandbox as it gets. Yeah, there are some features people don't like. But it is a pure sandbox, hands down.
If you liked Everquest, then other games such as WoW, EQ2, LotrO, FFXI... those are games that would appeal to you, and they aren't sandbox games. There's no problem with liking those types of games, but saying you like sandbox games and then claiming that a true sandbox isn't a sandbox... that's just asking to be countered with a debate like this.
Edit: And I was simply saying the fact that you made three characters meant that you really didn't have much time to give the game a chance judging by the time of those posts, and the time of this thread. You can't simply play a game through the tutorial, run a few missions and instantly say there is no freedom in the game. Had you done any amount of reading on the game, and you would find out that there are MANY things to do in the game that will get you money, and allow you to advance at whatever pace you desire.
Mission running and mining are not the only profitable things in EVE. Which is why I can't understand how you don't think there is freedom in the game.
Ok I never said that this game was not a sandbox but in some ways for me it was not and no matter what I disagree with you on eq1 its still a sandbox loot or not raiding is a choice not required. And no wow and other games do not appeal to me im not going to argue with you about this im going to bed. And I said eve did not have enough sandbox feeling for me, your limited to either doing gathering resources doing missions, pirating, or pvp. How is that much differant then eq1? Yes it had a variety of ships and skills yet your still doing the same things over and over in my opinion the space was repetitive no planets to really explore nothing new to add to the flavor, atleast in eq all the zones where differant that to me is part of a sandbox.
And again I never said eq1 was fully a sandbox but I guess people like you just dont think of it that way because you where to focused on raiding to see the variety of things you could have done, I always found myself making more choices in that game then any other mmorpg ive played. I may not have played eve for months like you but I played it long enough to understand that your just choosing to level certain skills and planning and choosing if you want to go out and pvp or pve.
This thread was posted with the intent of arguing. You asked questions, and the people in favor of the game gave you fairly long detailed responses explaining some of the intricacies of the game, even countering some of the things mentioned in your original post that you had been wondering about such as skill loss and financial/ship loss. That and you flat out asked if the game was a -scam-.
Where as those who dislike the game barely gave much of a response (except for a couple, who will remain exempt from this statement) and you chose to go ahead with your original thought regardless of the more in depth explanations given.
Sounds like an argument from the start.
I'm merely suggesting that perhaps you're mistaking sandbox for a type of game that it isn't, and that EVE was never intended for you in the first place, since you've already named a game that previously interested you which does not fit the -technical- definition of a sandbox game in any way.
We'll simply have to agree to disagree, since you seemed set in your ways the moment you created this thread, as if your opinion was set in stone before anyone responded.
First, about the sandbox, it is not a sandbox ( freeform from here on ) until you realise its full potential.
The new players I am sure do not see what makes this thing freeform.
It is all in the eye of the beholder, and you do not really get the full view until you have played for quite some time, get to know the industry and market of EVE, as well as its 0.0 conflicts that drives both of these things.
It still is freeform though, even though it may not look like it at first glance.
To the new player this is simply a quest for cash and a slow path to better ships and equipment.
CCP have done a lot to remedy this though, the tutorial now in place is very good, I tried it even though I started long before it was in place, it sets you up with enough cash, some gear and perhaps even an implant to get you well on your way with a good basic understanding of the game.
They increased the starting SP from varying between I think 10k-120k to settle around 900k, wich in the beginning is well over a month of play, until you have your learning skills.
I think the learning skills is one of the biggest hurdles for new players, most every old player will tell you to go for these first, and this is sound advice of course, it will benefit you in the long run.
Myself however tend to disagree with this, I say gor for fun first, and start on the learning skills when you know you are in it for the long run, going for the usual 5/4/3 setup ( 5 in the actual learning skill, 4 in basic, 3 in advanced ), in all skills, although most skip charisma, is something like 500k SP, wich will take you about 3 weeks tops.
But waiting with this for a month or two will not cost you all that much, at the very most a week total slower learning during that time.
Loss of ships and clones will not bother you much if you go prepared, a clone and good insurance will make you come out with no skill loss and an economic loss that migth well sting but wont crush you.
Insurance do not cover modules, and when you start moving into t2 ships it will not cover much of that cost either, I do not even insure my t2 ships, but that is a much later problem.
EVE is an aquired taste for most people, you get out of it what you put in, and the beginning can be troublseome no doubt, this is probably why EVE has one of the longest trials out there, and it still may not be enough for you to ge into it.
But its cheap as well, 20euro for the game with one month sub gives you a play time of 6 weeks for peanut money, by wich time you should be pretty sure about wether or not you like it or not.
At that point you sit at about 2m SP, wich is not all that bad and if you skipped lvl5 skills should let you fly both frigates and cruisers with some success.
About the huge SP differences between players, remember that over 75% of all skillpoints is the step from 4 to 5 and using the same ship, skills and modules someone with 40m SP will only have a minute advantage over someone with 10m.
Allthough lvl5 skills usually lets you move into tech 2 modules and ships with all things being even skillpoints do not matter as much as most people lets you think.
The two most important things to remember.
1. Do not fly something you can not afford to loose, I know this is starting to sound kilché, but it just can not be stated enugh.
2. It is all about setup, skills and experience do matter but if you pick a role and equip for it you will be far more efficient then anyone that tries to be jack of all trades, regardless of how many skillpoints they have.
Sorry for the windy post..
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And that's why the skill progression is still linear not sandbox.
The restrictions are not prescribed by character class, they are prescribed by time. The same result by a different system.
You chose a role and have to set yourself up in a prescribed way to make it effective. Just as you do in every other game.
The difference between Eve skill systems and the lvl/character class systems is predominently the way in which character advancement is achieved.
In Eve it is a reward for money spent. The more time you spend subscribed, the more powerful you become. Even without playing. While in EQ you are rewarded for actual hours spent playing rather than game time spent subscribed. Eve is a game played on a different timescale. I can get to the top of of my chosen role in EQ in about a month. In Eve it might take more like 6 months. Both with the same amount of actual manhours spent in game.
In EQ advancement is a factor of game money plus gameplay, while in Eve it is a factor of game money plus real money.
You have to choose which system best suits your gaming habits/wallet.
And that's why the skill progression is still linear not sandbox. The restrictions are not prescribed by character class, they are prescribed by time. The same result by a different system. You chose a role and have to set yourself up in a prescribed way to make it effective. Just as you do in every other game.
The difference between Eve skill systems and the lvl/character class systems is predominently the way in which character advancement is achieved. In Eve it is a reward for money spent. The more time you spend subscribed, the more powerful you become. Even without playing. While in EQ you are rewarded for actual hours spent playing rather than game time spent subscribed. Eve is a game played on a different timescale. I can get to the top of of my chosen role in EQ in about a month. In Eve it might take more like 6 months. Both with the same amount of actual manhours spent in game. In EQ advancement is a factor of game money plus gameplay, while in Eve it is a factor of game money plus real money. You have to choose which system best suits your gaming habits/wallet.
You seem to have 'forgotten' that skill learning is classless to, you can learn to do any skill not just the ones that apply to your proffesion. Thats the important difference between EQ skills and EvE skills.
"Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Jean Rostand
That's a bit of an overplayed distinction in my opinon.
If I want to be melee I choose a melee class. If I want to fly frigates I learn frigate skills.
Call them skills, call them abilities, call them classes, call them levels. Call them any combination of these if you like. What's in a name? A tank is tank, it fulfills the same role. DPs is DPS.
The options are provided in both games to chose speciality roles, to jack of all trades or to multirole. Both games give you multiple skill tree's. EQ's tradeskills are not class specific for example. But if you want a heavy hitter character in either, you will make your choices to support the kind role you are looking to play.
The important part is that you have a progression tree. What makes it linear is that tree starts with basic options that all expand from the same root. You can't get to z without going through a then b then c in order in either games.
I still have to learn cruiser pilot in Eve, whatever role I choose. No choice. Take it or never progress.
Step A in maybe choose warrior class or it maybe choose interceptor pilot, you still have to choose it, and you still have to take it before you can go any further.
Is it better to be able to start learning a seperate skill tree right from the beginning when you want a major change of style, or just respec and take the whole lot?
I think that's an important difference in the progression tree's. It take a lot longer to experiment in games that don;t support respecs. And frankly with the legth of time it takes to experiment with something in Eve, I would be persoanlly very apprehensive and end up reading Evewiki rather than just letting my toon develop as the wind blows it through life.
It's all the same to me Metal. The minutae change but the deals the same. Go up levels. Follow a prescribed tree. Make the same choices everyone else made if you want to power up fast, experiment a bit for yourself if your not so bothered.
Eve takes a lot long but requires a lot less keyboard input. Formula stuff, different timescale.
If you're looking for a care free game you've probably come to the wrong place. Granted there are things to do in the relatively safe areas, but in the case of the PVE missions at least. It's pretty slow going at first and really missions are not the game in and of themselves, but a means to a greater end. (such as nicer faction equipment, ships, and ammo via loyalty points and the using and/or sales of the occasional nice loot drop plus bing rigs with salvage)
EVE is a game where it is a neccessity to embrace risk. Find a corp that likes to work in low sec/0.0 areas. Go out, meet friends, work to make your niche, fight off pirates or try to inflitrate an alliance's space to take advantage of it.
Then again, I've lived on and off in a heavily contested 0.0 area for a large portion of my time in EVE, while 90% of the game resides in empire. So I may be wrong, but from my perspective, you must embrace risk.
If you where not trying to argue then you would stop making comments as in im set in my ways or you seem to already decided before anyone responded to this thread, you dont know me so please dont act like you do. I didnt decide that until after a few responses and not all of my decision was based on others opinions on the game I thought about it for a while, it seems to me your just assuming things you dont even know about me.
Yea I deffinatly understand that now, I do enjoy pvp but im more of a fair pvper I believe in honor I dont ever fight for personal gain just the challenge and fun. Of couse I want to be challenged and I dont always want carefree but eve just felt to bitter for my tastes.
I have been on the trial for a few days and I truly want to enjoy this game but why do I get the sense im in some kind of hardcore scam? Now im not bashing the game but this is how it feels to me, its one thing to loose your ships but to loose skills as well? On top of that the skills take a very long time so far mine can take up to 10 days I can just imagine what it will be at higher levels.
Now I dont mind hardcore games as long as I can play casually but I dont feel like this game is laid back as some people say, and I do enjoy pvp games just as much as I enjoy pve as long as it isnt cookie cutter. What is funny I am not really into sci fi unless its stargate but im finding I like everything about this game except the time sink and hardcore mentallity of this game.
I may be wrong here I just dont want to pay for a sub to learn im going to really dislike eve online. And if im wrong feel free to enlighten me thats why im here.
I guess you can say I really enjoyed city of heroes because it was fun and could be laid back but there was alot of other things that made me very bored with it.
Hello Angelbound,
1. The first thing any new player must do in EvE is join a Corportation (aka guild) as soon as possible. Post on the EvE forums at this here site "New and eager player looking for a good corporation/guild to join". The game is created with the intent to be corportation-centric. It also opens up a whole new world, and more things to do, when one joins a corp.
2. EvE is so a hardcore game. Hardcore on the brain. It is a thinking game. In fact, EvE currently has the highest learning curve out of every mmorpg out. With Anarchy Online a solid second. There are soo many stats to choose from, but no one character can be highly trained in every single stat. On one end of the spectrum is WoW ..... on the other end is EvE. WoW is currently the definition of a casual player game. Casual in every way. The majority of WoW involves little planning, and there is no death at all. Death means nothing in WoW. In EvE death hurts, even if one is insured. Death stings.
EvE is also one of the few mmorpgs with PvP that allow some form of player looting. (The enemy player you blow up will sometimes leave a cargo container. You can then take it. Same thing happens with many NPC spaceships you blow up.
Comments
We who enjoy EVE like it just fine like it is. Its a matter of personal preference really, and it might not be your kind of game. I find that it appeal more to people who read a lot, are used to using their imaginations instead of viewing video displays, and its just a different mindset.
No game can be everything to everyone, would be impossible to develop such a thing and do it well. I'd prefer they focus on improving the core game play and leave the other features you mentioned to another game.
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I've never lost any skill points in Eve. I didn't realise you could.
The game is a hardcore timesink for sure. It takes hours to go anywhere. It takes months to get competative and it takes years to get yourself rocking.
It's pretty much a hardcore crowd too. There is no casual play. You can't just log in and join a battleground. It's going to take you 45 minutes to jump to a rumored combat zone and when you get there, there is no guarentee anyone else will have shown up.
This is of course amplified during the begining year and half, where, since you wont be able to solo anything you will first have to organise a raid group before you all go jumping off for PvP anywhere at all.
This game engine may be old, but it is state of the art. It runs fine on 56K, it allows 10's of thousands of players to join the same game and it runs on a laptop. Upping the graphics or the sytem requirments would reduce a lot of it's strengths. It's is still the record holder for simultaneously connected games. (By a factor of about 50).
It's no more complex or in depth than WoW. Combat has nothing like WoW or Guild Wars intracies. Unless you get into a raid it's standard button mashing and is simple fare. You don't have the 50 or 60 different buttons to choose from that you do in games such as WoW, but you certainly have a much bigger fear of dying.
This isn't really a manually controlled game. It is mainly played AFK. Chatting in chatrooms and watching TV makes up the bulk of your time with perhaps 30 secs of input every half an hour. Your wife won't get angry with you if you play this game. The raid won't notice if you leave your computer to make dinner for the kids. It operates on a different time scale to action titles, the pace is closer to Civilisation than Unreal.
When I bought this game, I also bought a nifty flight yoke to go with it. What laugh! You might think I would have been tragically disappointed at this point, but I wasn't at all.
I enjoy it, but it's a no brainer, background entertainment. You need to be doing something a little more stimulating at the same time for it to be fun.
I just tried the game and it feels more like a simulation then a game.
A lot of new players have a hard time finding combat on their level, and feel they have to wait to train skills or earn isk to "get to the good stuff". Listening to the newb corp chats, you might draw the conclusion that there is nothing beyond pvp in eve online. Everything from what skills to train to what builds work for a ship are constantly debated with PVP in mind. The veterans in this game are sharks; swim with them at your own risk. Try running missions. They aren't as horrible as many people say they are, and you can actually focus on having fun instead of a grind. Just a suggestion.
People always forget, that there will always be a bigger fish in PvP. Even if you maxed all your skills for the Vagabond (best soloship ingame), you will feel very vulnerable. It just takes a specialized ship and you are dead.
It is true, you wont be competitive in most solo-engagements for a long time. But mostly because you lack understanding of game-mechanics. But you CAN be "competitive" in small gangs. A gang typically is a mixed Setup of hard hitters, electronic warfare and tacklers, who "catch" the prey and hold him there until the rest arrives. That part is very fun and can be done with a minimum of skillpoints.
So to get into pvp you will have to do several things:
-Get into a Corp, preferrably 0.0. They will teach you how to pvp. I have never heard of a succesful 0.0 corp that does not teach their newbies how to use their ships.
-Get some basic skills for a battlecruiser. Takes about two weeks, so you can make your own money.
-Get some initial Money from your corp. A kickstart into eve, so to say. I mostly give out 1-2 million ISK to newbies who deserve it, that equals 3-4 fully fitted frigates. You will get frigates from your corp anyways. (Again, i have yet to see a succesfull 0.0 operating corporation that does not offer free frigs and modules to newbies. Everybody knows how difficult moneymaking for newbies is.)
Eve is not so hardcore for newbies, actually. You dont have to worry about the expensive ships and even get them for free. Your loss equals a minute of killing npcs for a one month old character. When i lose one of my expensive ships, ill run out of money and will have to take a short break from pvp to get the money back. Insurance does not work fot tech2-ships..
"another" hardcore game? LoL I wish there were more.
If you still with EVE you will find that as your knowledge of the game and your skillpoints increase EVE is less and less of an in-game time sink.
You can raise your skills and play the market just as effectively by logging in once a day for an hour as you can playing 60 hours a week.
Also if you continue playing you will realize that there are ships and setups that you love to fly that you can make enough ISK to replace in a few minutes. The rate you make ISK will continue to snowball until doing suicide missions in a 10mil ship with a 90mil setup is something you recoup from by playing the market overnight while you are sleeping IRL.
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PM me when an MMO as good as UO was comes out.
I actually found it anything but hardcore.I kinda got bored playing it as the animations and overall gameplay lacked too many ideas that should have been in there.IMO those are not and should not be called skills at all.The reason is because it takes nothing to learn them or for a better word EARN them.You click a skill item and wait for time to pass by then you get it.It reminds me of RF online mining while i am not even playing the game.
This is what the game should have had and it would have rocked.
1 planet exploration/mobs/housing/battles. Other MMO's have this but don't have a good space setting. I advise you play SWG
2 Ship animations with you in 3rd or first person view actually maintaining a full set of skills to manouvre a ship.I mean with you actually inside the ship with tons of panels and instruments all around you.Perhaps you have a crew that you have to give each one specific set of instructions that can make or break your battles or quests.There should be alot more animation and hands on control for the gunnery part of the ship also. You are asking for Twitch combat it seems once again play SWG jump to lightspeed that has twitch combat space PvP tho its pretty poor. Also try reading EvE's lore a bit and it is explained why there is no Cockpit.
3 There really isn't a whole lot of animation in the game so the battles should be a heck of a lot more animated and exciting. So you want ultra unrealistic combat like you get in programs like Battlestar galactica do you? Well try out SWG jump to lightspeed. lots of flashy lights there to ammuse you and everyone moves like fighter planes rather than spaceships there.
This game appeared to me anyhow as being a very simplistic/old game engine Game engine is currently 1 year old now.IMO scrap this game and build it all over from scratch again using modern day tech and it would prolly rock. How realistic is it having huge ships with only you doing all the work? What do you want groupe controlled ships? where is your crew? lol ahh i see well your crew is in your ship manning the guns maintaining systems cleaning the Decks etc read the Lore..I think only small one manned vessels should be all a single player can use,unless you travel the universe hiring/seeking out NPC 's to man your ship.Perhaps you have to fight battles to free mercenaries to fight with you. Then make your own MMO im sure you will have fun doing that
It seems alot of your problems stemmed from not actually reading up on EvE. I advise you try out SWG. That game has ground combat and space combat. The sips move like fighter planes and there are lots of pretty explosions.If however you want more realistic Space naval combat then EvE fits the bill. In realistic space combat ranges would be longer as friction is less of an issue so actually seeing another ship with the naked eye wont happen as often. Also larger ships don't manouver like Fighters as Bigger should Equel slower.
"Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god."
-- Jean Rostand
I found the graphics quite nice in eve personally and the fighting looked great to me, I liked the way the combat was it reminded me of older games ive played in the past that had the same kind of combat. But I dont think eve is for me and thats ok I want some depth and challenge but not in this kind of game take care all.
EVE used to be a good sandbox. Now it's just another PvP/loot/grind game.
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"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Yes KYLERAN i accept your response as an intelligent one.I know you are correct there is alot of players that follow your path of thinking, i tend to forget about them as i am not one them.I just wanted to point out what i expected from the game and what it could have done to make it a great game,but following your path of thought i wonder if it would have alienated those gamers i am not really sure.I in no way meant to bash the game ,like i said ,only wanted to give my view as to what i thought it should be.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I would say no to the fun. And no to the hardcore game.
Yes I was hoping it would be more of a sandbox it did turn out I was wrong, I really liked ryzom but I really could not get into the combat in that game. Eq1 to me was a sandbox it was my first mmorpg but man I loved it but I will never go to another time sink like that:)
No offense, but if you don't think EVE is a sandbox then you clearly have no idea what a sandbox game is. EVE is as sandbox as it gets. I noticed your thread in the EVE forum that you've done a trial but have never actually subscribed. This past time, you created three separate characters and now you're posting that you don't like it.
Yet you call EQ1 a sandbox.
Everquest was not a sandbox game. It was the first in a line of linear quest/raid based MMOs that fill the market right now. It was class-based, to the point of your character being almost identical stat/ability-wise as anyone else of the same level. There was a progression on gear that everyone of a certain class followed, and you had the same spells and abilities as anyone else of that level. Then at the end of the leveling treadmill, you worked on the same sets of gear that everyone else raided for, to get to the next raid. Everquest invented the point system now used in games like WoW, where you attend guild events and get points that you use to spend on loot drops.
Not speaking from an outsiders point of view either. I played on Rallos Zek, and then Zek when they merged, had a 65 cleric and a 65 enchanter, with access to a group of my friends' variety of high level characters, one being the main tank of the top raid guild on the server. So when you call Everquest a sandbox game, I immediately have to wonder what you were -really- expecting when you started to play EVE, since you clearly don't seem to know what a sandbox game is.
In sandbox games, you make your own fun. If you're not having fun with a certain aspect, you try another and another until you find your niche in the game. The content is created by the players as much as possible, and the game is made fun by finding a group of like-minded individuals who you can enjoy it with. There are no classes, and if there are, there are enough options to let you differentiate your character from another without simply wearing different gear than them.
A true sandbox is skill-based, not class based. There is usually a storyline, but it usually takes a backburner to what the players are creating for themselves. There can be quests, but in any skill-based game I've played these quests are not the end-all be-all for a player. They don't give your character a huge advantage, and are usually just for advancement or for status items.
Character advancement is usually achieved at your own pace, because you don't really worry about falling behind in gear. There should always be a role for your character even if you are not as high up in the food chain as another player. It allows players to do things together without segregating them because of level or gear.
Players are usually allowed to do whatever they want in these games. If they can find a way to have fun, they do it. They're not required to adhere to a certain way simply because that's "the way it is".
Look there is no reason to take offense that I did not think eve was much of a sandbox and I never said it was not one at all im just saying I was hoping for more freedom yes its differant then most games but ive felt more freedom from games like ryzom and and eq1 and some of that just may be my opinion if you dont like it thats not my fault, I already decided it was not for me yet your here trying to argue with me because I dont think its that much of a sandbox.
And by the way just because I created a character more then once does not mean I have not played the game. There is more I dislike about the game then just some of the lack of freedom I personally feel from it.
Oh and by the way your comment about eq not being a sandbox I disagree with I got to choose pretty much almost anything I wanted to be I could choose to explore level what zones I wanted to fight or explore or or if I wanted to group farm quest, and for the spell casting classes there was a wide variety in your spell combinations, the game had so much content and nothing hardly looked the same. You got to specialize what skills you wanted more over there others and dont get me started on the depth of aa skills. I played eq1 long before luclin I think I would know if it was not a sandbox. Now I know eq1 could have been more of a sandbox but in my opinion it had alot I would want in a sandbox.
And by the way I already said in my opinion it felt like a sandbox ealier.
But Everquest was, and still is, simply not a sandbox game.
Everquest, was a raid-based, class-based, gear-based game. Piece those all together, and you definitely don't get a sandbox.
It is the polar opposite of a sandbox game, and I am willing to bet that 99% of the people here will agree with me on that, even if they don't like sandbox type MMOs, regardless of what game it is that they dislike. I loved the game when I played it, but I found a type of game that I liked more, where I had 10 times the amount of freedom than I had in Everquest.
I understand you liked it, but what I'm saying is that if you liked it then perhaps you should have originally looked in a different place for a game than EVE, because EVE is as sandbox as it gets. Yeah, there are some features people don't like. But it is a pure sandbox, hands down.
If you liked Everquest, then other games such as WoW, EQ2, LotrO, FFXI... those are games that would appeal to you, and they aren't sandbox games. There's no problem with liking those types of games, but saying you like sandbox games and then claiming that a true sandbox isn't a sandbox... that's just asking to be countered with a debate like this.
Edit: And I was simply saying the fact that you made three characters meant that you really didn't have much time to give the game a chance judging by the time of those posts, and the time of this thread. You can't simply play a game through the tutorial, run a few missions and instantly say there is no freedom in the game. Had you done any amount of reading on the game, and you would find out that there are MANY things to do in the game that will get you money, and allow you to advance at whatever pace you desire.
Mission running and mining are not the only profitable things in EVE. Which is why I can't understand how you don't think there is freedom in the game.
Ok I never said that this game was not a sandbox but in some ways for me it was not and no matter what I disagree with you on eq1 its still a sandbox loot or not raiding is a choice not required. And no wow and other games do not appeal to me im not going to argue with you about this im going to bed. And I said eve did not have enough sandbox feeling for me, your limited to either doing gathering resources doing missions, pirating, or pvp. How is that much differant then eq1? Yes it had a variety of ships and skills yet your still doing the same things over and over in my opinion the space was repetitive no planets to really explore nothing new to add to the flavor, atleast in eq all the zones where differant that to me is part of a sandbox.
And again I never said eq1 was fully a sandbox but I guess people like you just dont think of it that way because you where to focused on raiding to see the variety of things you could have done, I always found myself making more choices in that game then any other mmorpg ive played. I may not have played eve for months like you but I played it long enough to understand that your just choosing to level certain skills and planning and choosing if you want to go out and pvp or pve.
This thread was posted with the intent of arguing. You asked questions, and the people in favor of the game gave you fairly long detailed responses explaining some of the intricacies of the game, even countering some of the things mentioned in your original post that you had been wondering about such as skill loss and financial/ship loss. That and you flat out asked if the game was a -scam-.
Where as those who dislike the game barely gave much of a response (except for a couple, who will remain exempt from this statement) and you chose to go ahead with your original thought regardless of the more in depth explanations given.
Sounds like an argument from the start.
I'm merely suggesting that perhaps you're mistaking sandbox for a type of game that it isn't, and that EVE was never intended for you in the first place, since you've already named a game that previously interested you which does not fit the -technical- definition of a sandbox game in any way.
We'll simply have to agree to disagree, since you seemed set in your ways the moment you created this thread, as if your opinion was set in stone before anyone responded.
Ah EVE, on of my MMO love/hate relationships.
First, about the sandbox, it is not a sandbox ( freeform from here on ) until you realise its full potential.
The new players I am sure do not see what makes this thing freeform.
It is all in the eye of the beholder, and you do not really get the full view until you have played for quite some time, get to know the industry and market of EVE, as well as its 0.0 conflicts that drives both of these things.
It still is freeform though, even though it may not look like it at first glance.
To the new player this is simply a quest for cash and a slow path to better ships and equipment.
CCP have done a lot to remedy this though, the tutorial now in place is very good, I tried it even though I started long before it was in place, it sets you up with enough cash, some gear and perhaps even an implant to get you well on your way with a good basic understanding of the game.
They increased the starting SP from varying between I think 10k-120k to settle around 900k, wich in the beginning is well over a month of play, until you have your learning skills.
I think the learning skills is one of the biggest hurdles for new players, most every old player will tell you to go for these first, and this is sound advice of course, it will benefit you in the long run.
Myself however tend to disagree with this, I say gor for fun first, and start on the learning skills when you know you are in it for the long run, going for the usual 5/4/3 setup ( 5 in the actual learning skill, 4 in basic, 3 in advanced ), in all skills, although most skip charisma, is something like 500k SP, wich will take you about 3 weeks tops.
But waiting with this for a month or two will not cost you all that much, at the very most a week total slower learning during that time.
Loss of ships and clones will not bother you much if you go prepared, a clone and good insurance will make you come out with no skill loss and an economic loss that migth well sting but wont crush you.
Insurance do not cover modules, and when you start moving into t2 ships it will not cover much of that cost either, I do not even insure my t2 ships, but that is a much later problem.
EVE is an aquired taste for most people, you get out of it what you put in, and the beginning can be troublseome no doubt, this is probably why EVE has one of the longest trials out there, and it still may not be enough for you to ge into it.
But its cheap as well, 20euro for the game with one month sub gives you a play time of 6 weeks for peanut money, by wich time you should be pretty sure about wether or not you like it or not.
At that point you sit at about 2m SP, wich is not all that bad and if you skipped lvl5 skills should let you fly both frigates and cruisers with some success.
About the huge SP differences between players, remember that over 75% of all skillpoints is the step from 4 to 5 and using the same ship, skills and modules someone with 40m SP will only have a minute advantage over someone with 10m.
Allthough lvl5 skills usually lets you move into tech 2 modules and ships with all things being even skillpoints do not matter as much as most people lets you think.
The two most important things to remember.
1. Do not fly something you can not afford to loose, I know this is starting to sound kilché, but it just can not be stated enugh.
2. It is all about setup, skills and experience do matter but if you pick a role and equip for it you will be far more efficient then anyone that tries to be jack of all trades, regardless of how many skillpoints they have.
Sorry for the windy post..
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Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
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And that's why the skill progression is still linear not sandbox.
The restrictions are not prescribed by character class, they are prescribed by time. The same result by a different system.
You chose a role and have to set yourself up in a prescribed way to make it effective. Just as you do in every other game.
The difference between Eve skill systems and the lvl/character class systems is predominently the way in which character advancement is achieved.
In Eve it is a reward for money spent. The more time you spend subscribed, the more powerful you become. Even without playing. While in EQ you are rewarded for actual hours spent playing rather than game time spent subscribed. Eve is a game played on a different timescale. I can get to the top of of my chosen role in EQ in about a month. In Eve it might take more like 6 months. Both with the same amount of actual manhours spent in game.
In EQ advancement is a factor of game money plus gameplay, while in Eve it is a factor of game money plus real money.
You have to choose which system best suits your gaming habits/wallet.
You seem to have 'forgotten' that skill learning is classless to, you can learn to do any skill not just the ones that apply to your proffesion. Thats the important difference between EQ skills and EvE skills.
"Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god."
-- Jean Rostand
That's a bit of an overplayed distinction in my opinon.
If I want to be melee I choose a melee class. If I want to fly frigates I learn frigate skills.
Call them skills, call them abilities, call them classes, call them levels. Call them any combination of these if you like. What's in a name? A tank is tank, it fulfills the same role. DPs is DPS.
The options are provided in both games to chose speciality roles, to jack of all trades or to multirole. Both games give you multiple skill tree's. EQ's tradeskills are not class specific for example. But if you want a heavy hitter character in either, you will make your choices to support the kind role you are looking to play.
The important part is that you have a progression tree. What makes it linear is that tree starts with basic options that all expand from the same root. You can't get to z without going through a then b then c in order in either games.
I still have to learn cruiser pilot in Eve, whatever role I choose. No choice. Take it or never progress.
Step A in maybe choose warrior class or it maybe choose interceptor pilot, you still have to choose it, and you still have to take it before you can go any further.
Is it better to be able to start learning a seperate skill tree right from the beginning when you want a major change of style, or just respec and take the whole lot?
I think that's an important difference in the progression tree's. It take a lot longer to experiment in games that don;t support respecs. And frankly with the legth of time it takes to experiment with something in Eve, I would be persoanlly very apprehensive and end up reading Evewiki rather than just letting my toon develop as the wind blows it through life.
It's all the same to me Metal. The minutae change but the deals the same. Go up levels. Follow a prescribed tree. Make the same choices everyone else made if you want to power up fast, experiment a bit for yourself if your not so bothered.
Eve takes a lot long but requires a lot less keyboard input. Formula stuff, different timescale.
If you're looking for a care free game you've probably come to the wrong place. Granted there are things to do in the relatively safe areas, but in the case of the PVE missions at least. It's pretty slow going at first and really missions are not the game in and of themselves, but a means to a greater end. (such as nicer faction equipment, ships, and ammo via loyalty points and the using and/or sales of the occasional nice loot drop plus bing rigs with salvage)
EVE is a game where it is a neccessity to embrace risk. Find a corp that likes to work in low sec/0.0 areas. Go out, meet friends, work to make your niche, fight off pirates or try to inflitrate an alliance's space to take advantage of it.
Then again, I've lived on and off in a heavily contested 0.0 area for a large portion of my time in EVE, while 90% of the game resides in empire. So I may be wrong, but from my perspective, you must embrace risk.
If you where not trying to argue then you would stop making comments as in im set in my ways or you seem to already decided before anyone responded to this thread, you dont know me so please dont act like you do. I didnt decide that until after a few responses and not all of my decision was based on others opinions on the game I thought about it for a while, it seems to me your just assuming things you dont even know about me.
Yea I deffinatly understand that now, I do enjoy pvp but im more of a fair pvper I believe in honor I dont ever fight for personal gain just the challenge and fun. Of couse I want to be challenged and I dont always want carefree but eve just felt to bitter for my tastes.
Hello Angelbound,
1. The first thing any new player must do in EvE is join a Corportation (aka guild) as soon as possible. Post on the EvE forums at this here site "New and eager player looking for a good corporation/guild to join". The game is created with the intent to be corportation-centric. It also opens up a whole new world, and more things to do, when one joins a corp.
2. EvE is so a hardcore game. Hardcore on the brain. It is a thinking game. In fact, EvE currently has the highest learning curve out of every mmorpg out. With Anarchy Online a solid second. There are soo many stats to choose from, but no one character can be highly trained in every single stat. On one end of the spectrum is WoW ..... on the other end is EvE. WoW is currently the definition of a casual player game. Casual in every way. The majority of WoW involves little planning, and there is no death at all. Death means nothing in WoW. In EvE death hurts, even if one is insured. Death stings.
EvE is also one of the few mmorpgs with PvP that allow some form of player looting. (The enemy player you blow up will sometimes leave a cargo container. You can then take it. Same thing happens with many NPC spaceships you blow up.