Originally posted by dirtyjoe78 I said nothing of WoW because it is an exception but the second runner up would have to be LoTR not near the subs but still a profitable game and 40,000 is not enough to make a profitable game. Also out of that 40k how many voted for EVE? Being that EVE won but not unanimously that makes an even smaller player base ie not enough to make a MMO for that crowd. As for 40k being a good core sample of of your target audience lets consider some numbers and yes this time i am going to include WoW. We'll low ball the WoW subs current to 2.5m LoTR at somewhere around 450k not including F2P games http://www.mmogchart.com/ puts the MMO community at just over 13million gamers now take your 40k as a percentage of 13m you get .31% of the total MMO gaming community (i know that the MMOCHART is from 06 and thus not entirely accurate for today but it gives a good general idea) I would say that that is NOT a good overall snapshot of the MMO gaming community.
I may be wrong, but opinion polls only have about 1000 or so respondents, clearly a very small precentage of the total population, but yet they are taken as useful data.
Granted, there are things done differently that makes that 1000 respondents a better picture of the genreal popultation (which this site does not do) but polling a small precentage of a populations does not mean that it is not an accurate assessment.
When are we gonna stop getting wow clones and get a new sandbox mmo ? Bioware's interviews makes it clear its another wow clone. So does Star Trek (if it even gets launched). The people have spoken developers, we prefer overwhelmingly sandbox MMO's. Its time to rethink those boring linear quest-driven concepts. Eve wins best MMO once again SWG loses hundreds of thousands of players once it dumps its sandbox game for a linear design. The evidence is clear. Why not give the folks what they want ?
When it starts winning game of the year on Spike TV
You consider spike to be the holy grail of game rating? **sighs**
In reality WoW wins this category every year, but that game is a four-letter-word around here. Here in the deepest dungeons of Fortress Nerd, we dareth not speaketh of that foul game, unless it's with distaste. That foul creation of Blizzard that took our hobby... and made it.... *gulp*... mainstream.
Interesting how about 10 different space-backdrops cobbled together with some static models, some particle effects and a lot of 'warping' can compare to the crafted world of Azeroth. Easy to make such a simple design "dynamic". Here... this solar-system (read: record in a database) belongs to that Alliance, and this one belongs to another.
A glorified chat room, that doesn't even have the decency to use newtonian physics, something Elite 2 had accomplished over a decade earlier. A skill system that does not even require participation, an economy so entrenched in secondary-market sales, that I have met people who play EVE online for a liviing. Oh yes, EVEs amazingly detailed economy, that dazzles you with features I've seen in Excel for over a decade (read: graphs), but pales in relevance tohow much real-life cash you have to burn.
It's a pyramid scheme at worst, and an interesting chat-room at best.
See, us WoW players can be scathingly critical as well
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
MMOs take more money to make than any other game type...period.
Not true. WoW - an excellent game but one of the most linear out there - cost about five times more to develop than Eve and pre-NGE SWG, both sandbox in conceot, put together.
You validate my point. So WoW cost more to make...it makes a crap ton more too doesn't it. Good investment.
All are MMOs last I checked...and only WoW is popular.
Originally posted by hubertgrove Originally posted by dirtyjoe78 The opinions of the posters on this site represent a small percentage of actual gamers nation and world wide. While the majority of gamers here prefer EVE to any other game this does not mean that everyone wants this type of game, quite the opposite i would say if you go by subscription trends.
Equally, it does not mean that such posters do NOT speak for the majority of all players. Subscription trends are irrelevant here. If 99of all cars available were Ford Probes and only 1% were the Ford Mustang, most people would drive Probes; but thayt doesn't mean that's what they want to drive.
The opinions of the posters on this site represent a small percentage of actual gamers nation and world wide. While the majority of gamers here prefer EVE to any other game this does not mean that everyone wants this type of game, quite the opposite i would say if you go by subscription trends.
Equally, it does not mean that such posters do NOT speak for the majority of all players.
Subscription trends are irrelevant here. If 99of all cars available were Ford Probes and only 1% were the Ford Mustang, most people would drive Probes; but thayt doesn't mean that's what they want to drive.
haha, that's a nice mindbender there
Not at all. it's not that complicated a concept. I mean, seriously - what would you rather drive: your current car or a Mustang? You probably would like to drive a Mustang but don't because (I am assuming) you are not rich and there's not a Mustang dealership near you. So you drive a Probe instead. Why? Because the availability is more convenient to you.
Originally posted by rikilii Originally posted by h00ligan182 Originally posted by -aLpHa- I dislike Sandbox Games .
what...exactly, do you "dislike" about sandbox games? the fact that you are free to do what you want? the fact that you arent held down by levels? you can advance in crafting or killing as you please? the bond created with your fellow warrior or craftsmen>? the player driven econony (all the good and bad that comes with it)? the clan wars? The sense of accomplishment not found in linear grind fests? enlighten us.
So many faulty premises.....where to start?
"the fact that you are free to do what you want?" In what way are you "free" in a "sandbox" game, but not "free" in a "linear" game? Let's have some examples, shall we? I'll start. In WoW (AKA every sandbox touter's whipping-boy), just by way of example you are "free" to: 1. Raid 2. Do Daily Quests 3. Farm resource nodes 4. Farm MOB drops 5. Speculate on the AH 6. Level a toon through quests 7. Level a toon by grinding 8. Craft 9. Run Battlegrounds 10. Spawn camp for poops and grins 11. get a big group together and raid Orgrimar or Ironforge or Crossroads or Southshore 12. Grind rep 13. Run nubs through low level dungeons for money 14. Do world PVP 15. Run a 5-man instance 16. Fly around on your mount just for the hell of it
you can advance in crafting or killing as you please? Same question....you can't advance in crafting or killing in WoW?
the bond created with your fellow warrior or craftsmen Where is it written that linear play precludes one from forming bonds? the player driven econony (all the good and bad that comes with it)
Since when is "sandbox" synonymous with "player driven economy" and "linear" antithetical to that concept? Last I checked, you couldn't by herbs, minerals, potions, or crafted armor or weapons from NPCs in WoW. the clan wars?
I'm not even sure I know what this is, but who needs clan wars when you have Horde vs. Alliance? The sense of accomplishment not found in linear grind fests? enlighten us.
Downing Illidan is not an accomplishment then? If not that, what is?
Like I told you the other day World of Warcraft is completely different from a Sandbox MMO. That is one thing pretty much everyone agrees upon
#1 most sandbox MMOs lack developer created "Classes" (all that I have played)
Originally posted by hubertgrove Originally posted by vajuras
Originally posted by hubertgrove
Originally posted by dirtyjoe78
The opinions of the posters on this site represent a small percentage of actual gamers nation and world wide. While the majority of gamers here prefer EVE to any other game this does not mean that everyone wants this type of game, quite the opposite i would say if you go by subscription trends.
Equally, it does not mean that such posters do NOT speak for the majority of all players. Subscription trends are irrelevant here. If 99of all cars available were Ford Probes and only 1% were the Ford Mustang, most people would drive Probes; but thayt doesn't mean that's what they want to drive.
haha, that's a nice mindbender there Not at all. it's not that complicated a concept. I mean, seriously - what would you rather drive: your current car or a Mustang? You probably would like to drive a Mustang but don't because (I am assuming) you are not rich and there's not a Mustang dealership near you. So you drive a Probe instead. Why? Because the availability is more convenient to you.
Well to be honest I drive a Ford Mustang but yeah I know what you're saying. I just like how you phrased your example :P
A rigged game is not a true sandbox. EVE developers have been caught multiple times cheating, lying to their players, and rigging supposedly open ended events.
Unfortunately the reality is that in a sandbox game, you can only develop your charcter in the tree paths that the developer has included. Just as in every other game.
There is now, has never been and never can be a game with infinite possibilites. You are always restricted by the limitations of the code. You always have been, you always wil be.
The fact that something can't be done perfectly is no reason to believe it can't be done at all. Classless skill systems certainly give the players more freedom than classes do. If you have a character archetype in mind, you can attempt to play it without being told "That type of person can't do x".
I don't know of a single MMO where anyone is "forced" to do anything. High level charcters are perfectly able to trade with low level characters.
They choose not to, just as I choose to longer do a paper round to earn my money but have progressed to speculating on the stock exchange. I still can deliver papers or wash cars for a living if I like, but just as in game, I no longer wish to. I have learnt more effective methods of self advancement.
Further more, not only do I no longer earn my money delvering newspapers, but I no longer have any particular interaction with people who do. And I don't want to. Character advancement and progression is a much loved feature in RPG games. There are many multiplayer games that do not use this principle. In Enemy Territory for example, all players have very similar rank and their chosen secondary proffesions, (engineer, medic, assault troop etc) all play well together at all levels. But this isn't RPG.
The fundamental key to the RPG format is character progression. This is a higher principle than "balance" for this formula of game. Quite simply if you are looking for level playing fields you are barking up the wrong genre.
I'll believe you don't hang out or share drinks with paperboys, but don't you or anyone else you know of equal or greater status happen to READ a paper delivered to your house? If yes, they're interacting with the paperboy. He doesn't just deliver papers to other paperboys, he delivers them to homeowners who are usually much richer. Furthermore, no matter how advanced they are in their career, they almost all read the same paper delivered by the same type of paperboy, not "Ultimate Herald of Doom +15" delivered by a master paperboy who received this exalted rank by mugging a bunch of orcs for their papers and chucking them against a wall over and over. The lowly paperboy provides an important service to the homeowners, who in return help pay his salary. This kind of interaction is what's lacking in most level based games.
It's not the game that is linear, it is you.
If you feel cheated because other people level faster than you or have progressed faster by following certain paths that you do not enjoy, you still don't have to follow. This isn't a competiton. You haven't been cheated. You have had access to the same options as them. That a game should provide you a different method for achieving the same goal is hardly what I would call linear. In fact it is the opposite of linear. That you are only intrested in following the fast track route is linear.
It's not about a level playing field. I don't care if someone I know is a higher level than me. I do care if it means I'll never see or play with them again. Some people like to keep playing with their friends.
Besides, how is providing alternatives more linear than forcing everyone along the same path? Would you play a game where 80% of the content is something you don't enjoy, but you still need to play through it to access the part you like? Or would you be looking for a game that features more of the elements you enjoy, whether or not you can actually find a good one?
Player housing is a much called for feature, I think you can expect to see it in more MMO's of the future. However do not expect new games that include player housing to ditch progression tree's/chacater classes or pre-scripted quests and events.
I wonder why it's so called for, despite having nothing to do with storyline, progression, or anything else like that. Could it be that players like having a space to express their creativity in some small way by decorating how they wish? Or is it because players like owning a part of the game world and leaving their mark on it? Just maybe player choice and impact are more important to some people than one might think.
Player worlds must always be restricted. They are forced to be. In the end all the computers have to print the same picture on all the other computers. Once again, they always have been. They are now and they always will be. Player affected area's are limited by the bandwidth available and the programmers ability and time to write the code. There is no "infinite" choice available. Resources are finite.
Unfortunately the laws of the universe restrict and limit every human accomplishment, ever, so we may as well stop doing anything. Again, just because you can't do it perfectly doesn't mean it can't be done at all.
Lets have a little look at the success of the unrestricted skill system. I'll use as my example the only game I've seen that actaully used one. Matrix online.
At any point in the game, you could respec your character completely you could chop and change your skills and professions by simply reprogramming your self Matrix style. (rememebr the armoury scene from the movie or the kung-fu training uploaded directly to Keanu's head). Did this make for a more intresting character? No. It made for a whole load of identy clones.
As you pointed out earlier, a good proportion of players will all just adopt the method they think will advance them fastest. So they all spec the same.
Not sure what this has to do with anything I said. All you'd need to do is what UO or SWG did, and limit how many skills a player can have at once and the speed at which they can change them. This still leaves them with much more freedom then they'd have in a class system.
One of the benefits of a class system which, since Dungeons and Dragons started the whole Role Play game thing off, has been a mainstay of the genre; is that it encourages multiplay. The classes are interdependant and rightly designed to be that way. In Matrix where everyone can do everything there is no team dynamic. No reason to play together at all. No need for interaction and no economy.
Why would I wish to buy something from you, if I can craft it myself?
There's the possibility that some kind of economy of scale would take effect, where a dedicated crafter who spends all their time gathering the materials and developing the tools they need will have an easier time creating the item than someone who devotes their energy to doing something else. The latter may find it more convenient to simply buy the item rather than gather the necessary tools and resources themselves.
But you're right, an economy is a delicate thing and needs to be carefully designed and balanced. The economies of most major games are not. It amazes how few developers seem to anticipate the inflation that results from endless loot tables or the MUDflation that results from the leveling system.
No. Prescribed roles work. It is a fundamental part of the RPG formula. Ignore it at your peril. Imagine a football game with no goal keeper, no defender, no winger and no striker and you will soon see that it isn't going to be a great game. A game of cricket is not a good game, if everybody decides to bat and no one wants to bowl. Rugby with no dedictaed scrum.
Another of the drawbacks of Matrix was that there was very limited replayability, once you leveled your toon to max level and were then able to be a master of any skill, there simply wasn't anything else left to try.
In my example of Matrix online we can see that this system clearly doesn't work well in a multiplayer enviroment. Despite that all the other developers have seen it, none of them chose to adopt it, and the bulk of MMO players ran from it like the plague. The game was a major flop and is perhaps one of the stalest weakest MMO's on the market.
The innovation suited the rationale of the game and the implimetation was practical, but it ignored the basic formula of all team games and the successful working formula's found in all other RPG's.
MMORPG's evolved. Unrestricted skill tree's got hit by Darwinism. They went the way of the dodo a few years back.
If the only thing to do in Matrix Online is grind skills, it doesn't sound very sandboxy. Are you aware that plenty of popular PnP RPGs other than DnD used classless skill systems? Alot of big single player games use them too. Some of the few mmos that use them are still doing great.
We seem to have different different definitions of sandbox. Games like WoW are not what I'm talking about, not because they have linear content, but because they lack the elemants that make what I consider a sandbox. To me, saying that these games have sandbox content is like saying you can play hockey during a baseball game by not hitting the ball or stealing bases, since you don't do those things in hockey.
When I hear sandbox, I expect some sort of outlet for player creativity. I expect content in more than one path of advancement. I expect it to be left up to the player to decide what his character is, rather than having it told to him. But most of all, I expect an emphasis on players interacting dynamically as a community. I guess that's not implicit in the term "sandbox", so maybe "virtual world" is a better term. An important part of this is how conducive the gameplay is towards things like economics, politics, and other complex interactions between players. I do think the players should write the story and create the content, but through their actions that come naturally. I don't think any game has achieved this, although some have attempted it and come closer than others. I don't think it's impossible either, but most of the major mmorpgs are a step backwards from this. I don't think this makes them bad games, necessarily, but they are not what I'm talking about when I say sandbox.
So purely out of curiosity, what does sandbox mean to you, that you insist it exists within WOW?
If you're building an mmorpg, or if you'd like to share ideas or talk about this industry, visit Multiplayer Worlds.
The opinions of the posters on this site represent a small percentage of actual gamers nation and world wide. While the majority of gamers here prefer EVE to any other game this does not mean that everyone wants this type of game, quite the opposite i would say if you go by subscription trends.
Equally, it does not mean that such posters do NOT speak for the majority of all players.
Subscription trends are irrelevant here. If 99of all cars available were Ford Probes and only 1% were the Ford Mustang, most people would drive Probes; but thayt doesn't mean that's what they want to drive.
haha, that's a nice mindbender there
Not at all. it's not that complicated a concept. I mean, seriously - what would you rather drive: your current car or a Mustang? You probably would like to drive a Mustang but don't because (I am assuming) you are not rich and there's not a Mustang dealership near you. So you drive a Probe instead. Why? Because the availability is more convenient to you.
Well to be honest I drive a Ford Mustang but yeah I know what you're saying. I just like how you phrased your example :P
Last time I checked, Eve was cheaper than WoW, and just as accessible.....so yeah, bad analogy.
____________________________________________ im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
To be honest, it's because the devolopers don't spend time on MMORPG.com. They are working on their game, they dont know we want a sandbox game, nor they want to spend time making one. It obvously takes work compaired to a linear design. But I do get where you are going, I wish we had a good sandbox game to get out of that repetitive gameplay mode.
Something different than EVE. I am not stupid, I know about EVE. I want something fresh though. Something with a bit more than EVE. I hate being a "ship" the whole time. I want a little of everything.
I agree. Sandbox wins hands down. To me and to alot of others. I would play EVE but I hate its controls. Not my type of game anyway. I'm waiting for Darkfall and Renassaince. Two MMO's that leave off from where UO started. Two REAL Sandboxes.
------------------------------ atsdf.com Among The Shadows Darkfall Clan
In reality WoW wins this category every year, but that game is a four-letter-word around here. Here in the deepest dungeons of Fortress Nerd, we dareth not speaketh of that foul game, unless it's with distaste. That foul creation of Blizzard that took our hobby... and made it.... *gulp*... mainstream. LoL at the WoW fanboi calling other MMO players Nerds Try looking in a mirror WoWboy. Interesting how about 10 different space-backdrops cobbled together with some static models, some particle effects and a lot of 'warping' can compare to the crafted world of Azeroth. Easy to make such a simple design "dynamic". Here... this solar-system (read: record in a database) belongs to that Alliance, and this one belongs to another. And here you prove you know nothing at all about EvE. HeH most of the trolls here stopped using the database analogy a year ago and if you consider WoW crafted then you need glasses m8 A glorified chat room, that doesn't even have the decency to use newtonian physics Woo newtonion Phsics wooooo glad they use them in WoW , something Elite 2 had accomplished over a decade earlier. A skill system that does not even require participation yep and thats a good thing to for those with a life, job, family etc.True i can understand why people like you who spend 20 hours a day killing Elves and orks for hats and gloves like mind numbing tedium but some of us have a life, an economy so entrenched in secondary-market sales, that I have met people who play EVE online for a liviing. Oh yes, EVEs amazingly detailed economy, that dazzles you with features I've seen in Excel for over a decade (read: graphs), but pales in relevance to how much real-life cash you have to burn Err this bit makes no sence at all. Well whatever at least its realistic and not like what WoW has for an economy [read stagnent]. It's a pyramid scheme at worst, and an interesting chat-room at best. See, us WoW players can be scathingly critical as well Actually chritasism is where you are being constructive in your negative comments for example i could say that while WoW has cartoony graphics that might appeal to low end computers, for those with some experience with graphics the graphics in WoW look old and dated and the textures washed out. What you posted was not Chritism it was a borderline attempt to get an angry responce.
So why does WoW win every year then? Does this mean that 9 million WoWdrones come over here to vote for WoW and some forum mod comes by and erases then?
Or are you just bitter EvE is more popular on this site than your Azeroth?
"Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Jean Rostand
You guys need to be careful with statistics, what we have here on MMORPG.com is not a random sampling of the population and thus cannot be used accurately determine what people think is the best game. All it shows is that people that had the time and motivation to vote on this site prefer EVE. It is an accomplishment, but it does not mean all that much.
Anyways, say you were to log in in WoW and ask anyone at random what they think is the best MMO available at the time. I think you'll agree that most, not all but most, will throw their vote in favor of the game their playing ( in this case WoW). Now say you were to ask every WoW players what they think, you'd get quite a few millions votes for the game. That amount would be higher then for any other game, thus showing that currently what people playing MMO think is the best game is WoW. Does it means WoW is the best game? Certainly not, but it shows that people generally think so.
I'm with most of you guys, I do not think WoW is the best thing since sliced bread, but please let's not make number say things that aren't true.
everyone knows the majority of players vote on mmorpg.com
we are a perfectly representative sample of MMO players...
Most of you are miserable and hate every mmo on the market.. or are obsessed with sharing EVE with the world. Your a horrible, horrible sample of mmorpg gamers.
after 6 or so years, I had to change it a little...
Last time I checked, Eve was cheaper than WoW, and just as accessible.....so yeah, bad analogy.
I don't mean to be rude but I am afraid you are rather missing the point. I was not talking about the relative subscription rates of Blizzard and CCP but their corporate capitalisation.
Probably the most sandboxy thing about EVE today is the "hands off" CS policy that allows you to scam.
But other than that, even EVE is becoming a lot more "WoW like."
Exclusive and rare faction loot is starting to play a larger role in gameplay, so much so that most players are either grinding loyalty points to get it, or raiding DED complexes to loot it.
Saying that EVE isn't level based is a bit misleading. While there are no hard classes, you are still very level restricted as to what you can or cannot fly or equip. These levels oftentimes take months of sub fees in realtime to acquire.
Crafting isn't very engaging. Basically it involves a lot of sitting around waiting for research labs to open up (which can be booked for months) so that your blueprints to become more efficient. After you do this for about a few months, crafting isn't very engagaing. It's not like EQ2 where you actually handle the materials. Rather, you dump a bunch of minerals into a factory , log back on in a couple of days, and receive your packaged goods.
A lot of the best things about sandbox (avatars, style, housing, interpersonal and situational charater roleplay) aren't available in EVE like they are in, say, SWG back when it was good. So while EVE might be a sandbox in a very loose way, it's not the sort of sandbox that people who want a real sanbox would find appealing.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Comments
I may be wrong, but opinion polls only have about 1000 or so respondents, clearly a very small precentage of the total population, but yet they are taken as useful data.
Granted, there are things done differently that makes that 1000 respondents a better picture of the genreal popultation (which this site does not do) but polling a small precentage of a populations does not mean that it is not an accurate assessment.
When it starts winning game of the year on Spike TV
You consider spike to be the holy grail of game rating? **sighs**
In reality WoW wins this category every year, but that game is a four-letter-word around here. Here in the deepest dungeons of Fortress Nerd, we dareth not speaketh of that foul game, unless it's with distaste. That foul creation of Blizzard that took our hobby... and made it.... *gulp*... mainstream.
Interesting how about 10 different space-backdrops cobbled together with some static models, some particle effects and a lot of 'warping' can compare to the crafted world of Azeroth. Easy to make such a simple design "dynamic". Here... this solar-system (read: record in a database) belongs to that Alliance, and this one belongs to another.
A glorified chat room, that doesn't even have the decency to use newtonian physics, something Elite 2 had accomplished over a decade earlier. A skill system that does not even require participation, an economy so entrenched in secondary-market sales, that I have met people who play EVE online for a liviing. Oh yes, EVEs amazingly detailed economy, that dazzles you with features I've seen in Excel for over a decade (read: graphs), but pales in relevance tohow much real-life cash you have to burn.
It's a pyramid scheme at worst, and an interesting chat-room at best.
See, us WoW players can be scathingly critical as well
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
Just noticed a lot of posters claim that EVE-online has not won any awards from other sites which is not true with but a quick google:
EVE-Online Awards
took best online RPG from pc gamer and other mags.
You validate my point. So WoW cost more to make...it makes a crap ton more too doesn't it. Good investment.Not true. WoW - an excellent game but one of the most linear out there - cost about five times more to develop than Eve and pre-NGE SWG, both sandbox in conceot, put together.
All are MMOs last I checked...and only WoW is popular.
Subscription trends are irrelevant here. If 99of all cars available were Ford Probes and only 1% were the Ford Mustang, most people would drive Probes; but thayt doesn't mean that's what they want to drive.
haha, that's a nice mindbender there
Subscription trends are irrelevant here. If 99of all cars available were Ford Probes and only 1% were the Ford Mustang, most people would drive Probes; but thayt doesn't mean that's what they want to drive.
haha, that's a nice mindbender there
Not at all. it's not that complicated a concept. I mean, seriously - what would you rather drive: your current car or a Mustang? You probably would like to drive a Mustang but don't because (I am assuming) you are not rich and there's not a Mustang dealership near you. So you drive a Probe instead. Why? Because the availability is more convenient to you.
what...exactly, do you "dislike" about sandbox games? the fact that you are free to do what you want? the fact that you arent held down by levels? you can advance in crafting or killing as you please? the bond created with your fellow warrior or craftsmen>? the player driven econony (all the good and bad that comes with it)? the clan wars? The sense of accomplishment not found in linear grind fests? enlighten us.
So many faulty premises.....where to start?
- "the fact that you are free to do what you want?" In what way are you "free" in a "sandbox" game, but not "free" in a "linear" game? Let's have some examples, shall we? I'll start. In WoW (AKA every sandbox touter's whipping-boy), just by way of example you are "free" to: 1. Raid 2. Do Daily Quests 3. Farm resource nodes 4. Farm MOB drops 5. Speculate on the AH 6. Level a toon through quests 7. Level a toon by grinding 8. Craft 9. Run Battlegrounds 10. Spawn camp for poops and grins 11. get a big group together and raid Orgrimar or Ironforge or Crossroads or Southshore 12. Grind rep 13. Run nubs through low level dungeons for money 14. Do world PVP 15. Run a 5-man instance 16. Fly around on your mount just for the hell of it
Downing Illidan is not an accomplishment then? If not that, what is?- you can advance in crafting or killing as you please? Same question....you can't advance in crafting or killing in WoW?
I'm not even sure I know what this is, but who needs clan wars when you have Horde vs. Alliance? The sense of accomplishment not found in linear grind fests? enlighten us.- the bond created with your fellow warrior or craftsmen Where is it written that linear play precludes one from forming bonds? the player driven econony (all the good and bad that comes with it)
Since when is "sandbox" synonymous with "player driven economy" and "linear" antithetical to that concept? Last I checked, you couldn't by herbs, minerals, potions, or crafted armor or weapons from NPCs in WoW. the clan wars?Like I told you the other day World of Warcraft is completely different from a Sandbox MMO. That is one thing pretty much everyone agrees upon
#1 most sandbox MMOs lack developer created "Classes" (all that I have played)
#2 Any item can be crafted. ANY ITEM
#3 ITems do not have "level" restrictions
#4 Character development is freeform. A crafter can be a "pure" crafter. Never pick up a sword. Impossible in WoW, impossible.....
#5 WoW does indeed restrict advancement in PVP. In UO, you could skillup in a DUEL. WoW- impossible.....
#6 in most sandbox MMOs you are free to explore any area of the world. In WoW, lowbies will get one shot for such a thing.
Subscription trends are irrelevant here. If 99of all cars available were Ford Probes and only 1% were the Ford Mustang, most people would drive Probes; but thayt doesn't mean that's what they want to drive.
haha, that's a nice mindbender there
Not at all. it's not that complicated a concept. I mean, seriously - what would you rather drive: your current car or a Mustang? You probably would like to drive a Mustang but don't because (I am assuming) you are not rich and there's not a Mustang dealership near you. So you drive a Probe instead. Why? Because the availability is more convenient to you.
Well to be honest I drive a Ford Mustang but yeah I know what you're saying. I just like how you phrased your example :P
A rigged game is not a true sandbox. EVE developers have been caught multiple times cheating, lying to their players, and rigging supposedly open ended events.
Unfortunately the reality is that in a sandbox game, you can only develop your charcter in the tree paths that the developer has included. Just as in every other game.
There is now, has never been and never can be a game with infinite possibilites. You are always restricted by the limitations of the code. You always have been, you always wil be.
The fact that something can't be done perfectly is no reason to believe it can't be done at all. Classless skill systems certainly give the players more freedom than classes do. If you have a character archetype in mind, you can attempt to play it without being told "That type of person can't do x".
I don't know of a single MMO where anyone is "forced" to do anything. High level charcters are perfectly able to trade with low level characters.
They choose not to, just as I choose to longer do a paper round to earn my money but have progressed to speculating on the stock exchange. I still can deliver papers or wash cars for a living if I like, but just as in game, I no longer wish to. I have learnt more effective methods of self advancement.
Further more, not only do I no longer earn my money delvering newspapers, but I no longer have any particular interaction with people who do. And I don't want to. Character advancement and progression is a much loved feature in RPG games. There are many multiplayer games that do not use this principle. In Enemy Territory for example, all players have very similar rank and their chosen secondary proffesions, (engineer, medic, assault troop etc) all play well together at all levels. But this isn't RPG.
The fundamental key to the RPG format is character progression. This is a higher principle than "balance" for this formula of game. Quite simply if you are looking for level playing fields you are barking up the wrong genre.
I'll believe you don't hang out or share drinks with paperboys, but don't you or anyone else you know of equal or greater status happen to READ a paper delivered to your house? If yes, they're interacting with the paperboy. He doesn't just deliver papers to other paperboys, he delivers them to homeowners who are usually much richer. Furthermore, no matter how advanced they are in their career, they almost all read the same paper delivered by the same type of paperboy, not "Ultimate Herald of Doom +15" delivered by a master paperboy who received this exalted rank by mugging a bunch of orcs for their papers and chucking them against a wall over and over. The lowly paperboy provides an important service to the homeowners, who in return help pay his salary. This kind of interaction is what's lacking in most level based games.
It's not the game that is linear, it is you.
If you feel cheated because other people level faster than you or have progressed faster by following certain paths that you do not enjoy, you still don't have to follow. This isn't a competiton. You haven't been cheated. You have had access to the same options as them. That a game should provide you a different method for achieving the same goal is hardly what I would call linear. In fact it is the opposite of linear. That you are only intrested in following the fast track route is linear.
It's not about a level playing field. I don't care if someone I know is a higher level than me. I do care if it means I'll never see or play with them again. Some people like to keep playing with their friends.
Besides, how is providing alternatives more linear than forcing everyone along the same path? Would you play a game where 80% of the content is something you don't enjoy, but you still need to play through it to access the part you like? Or would you be looking for a game that features more of the elements you enjoy, whether or not you can actually find a good one?
Player housing is a much called for feature, I think you can expect to see it in more MMO's of the future. However do not expect new games that include player housing to ditch progression tree's/chacater classes or pre-scripted quests and events.
I wonder why it's so called for, despite having nothing to do with storyline, progression, or anything else like that. Could it be that players like having a space to express their creativity in some small way by decorating how they wish? Or is it because players like owning a part of the game world and leaving their mark on it? Just maybe player choice and impact are more important to some people than one might think.
Player worlds must always be restricted. They are forced to be. In the end all the computers have to print the same picture on all the other computers. Once again, they always have been. They are now and they always will be. Player affected area's are limited by the bandwidth available and the programmers ability and time to write the code. There is no "infinite" choice available. Resources are finite.
Unfortunately the laws of the universe restrict and limit every human accomplishment, ever, so we may as well stop doing anything. Again, just because you can't do it perfectly doesn't mean it can't be done at all.
Lets have a little look at the success of the unrestricted skill system. I'll use as my example the only game I've seen that actaully used one. Matrix online.
At any point in the game, you could respec your character completely you could chop and change your skills and professions by simply reprogramming your self Matrix style. (rememebr the armoury scene from the movie or the kung-fu training uploaded directly to Keanu's head). Did this make for a more intresting character? No. It made for a whole load of identy clones.
As you pointed out earlier, a good proportion of players will all just adopt the method they think will advance them fastest. So they all spec the same.
Not sure what this has to do with anything I said. All you'd need to do is what UO or SWG did, and limit how many skills a player can have at once and the speed at which they can change them. This still leaves them with much more freedom then they'd have in a class system.
One of the benefits of a class system which, since Dungeons and Dragons started the whole Role Play game thing off, has been a mainstay of the genre; is that it encourages multiplay. The classes are interdependant and rightly designed to be that way. In Matrix where everyone can do everything there is no team dynamic. No reason to play together at all. No need for interaction and no economy.
Why would I wish to buy something from you, if I can craft it myself?
There's the possibility that some kind of economy of scale would take effect, where a dedicated crafter who spends all their time gathering the materials and developing the tools they need will have an easier time creating the item than someone who devotes their energy to doing something else. The latter may find it more convenient to simply buy the item rather than gather the necessary tools and resources themselves.
But you're right, an economy is a delicate thing and needs to be carefully designed and balanced. The economies of most major games are not. It amazes how few developers seem to anticipate the inflation that results from endless loot tables or the MUDflation that results from the leveling system.
No. Prescribed roles work. It is a fundamental part of the RPG formula. Ignore it at your peril. Imagine a football game with no goal keeper, no defender, no winger and no striker and you will soon see that it isn't going to be a great game. A game of cricket is not a good game, if everybody decides to bat and no one wants to bowl. Rugby with no dedictaed scrum.
Another of the drawbacks of Matrix was that there was very limited replayability, once you leveled your toon to max level and were then able to be a master of any skill, there simply wasn't anything else left to try.
In my example of Matrix online we can see that this system clearly doesn't work well in a multiplayer enviroment. Despite that all the other developers have seen it, none of them chose to adopt it, and the bulk of MMO players ran from it like the plague. The game was a major flop and is perhaps one of the stalest weakest MMO's on the market.
The innovation suited the rationale of the game and the implimetation was practical, but it ignored the basic formula of all team games and the successful working formula's found in all other RPG's.
MMORPG's evolved. Unrestricted skill tree's got hit by Darwinism. They went the way of the dodo a few years back.
If the only thing to do in Matrix Online is grind skills, it doesn't sound very sandboxy. Are you aware that plenty of popular PnP RPGs other than DnD used classless skill systems? Alot of big single player games use them too. Some of the few mmos that use them are still doing great.
We seem to have different different definitions of sandbox. Games like WoW are not what I'm talking about, not because they have linear content, but because they lack the elemants that make what I consider a sandbox. To me, saying that these games have sandbox content is like saying you can play hockey during a baseball game by not hitting the ball or stealing bases, since you don't do those things in hockey.
When I hear sandbox, I expect some sort of outlet for player creativity. I expect content in more than one path of advancement. I expect it to be left up to the player to decide what his character is, rather than having it told to him. But most of all, I expect an emphasis on players interacting dynamically as a community. I guess that's not implicit in the term "sandbox", so maybe "virtual world" is a better term. An important part of this is how conducive the gameplay is towards things like economics, politics, and other complex interactions between players. I do think the players should write the story and create the content, but through their actions that come naturally. I don't think any game has achieved this, although some have attempted it and come closer than others. I don't think it's impossible either, but most of the major mmorpgs are a step backwards from this. I don't think this makes them bad games, necessarily, but they are not what I'm talking about when I say sandbox.
So purely out of curiosity, what does sandbox mean to you, that you insist it exists within WOW?
If you're building an mmorpg, or if you'd like to share ideas or talk about this industry, visit Multiplayer Worlds.
Subscription trends are irrelevant here. If 99of all cars available were Ford Probes and only 1% were the Ford Mustang, most people would drive Probes; but thayt doesn't mean that's what they want to drive.
haha, that's a nice mindbender there
Not at all. it's not that complicated a concept. I mean, seriously - what would you rather drive: your current car or a Mustang? You probably would like to drive a Mustang but don't because (I am assuming) you are not rich and there's not a Mustang dealership near you. So you drive a Probe instead. Why? Because the availability is more convenient to you.
Well to be honest I drive a Ford Mustang but yeah I know what you're saying. I just like how you phrased your example :P
Last time I checked, Eve was cheaper than WoW, and just as accessible.....so yeah, bad analogy.
____________________________________________
im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
To be honest, it's because the devolopers don't spend time on MMORPG.com. They are working on their game, they dont know we want a sandbox game, nor they want to spend time making one. It obvously takes work compaired to a linear design. But I do get where you are going, I wish we had a good sandbox game to get out of that repetitive gameplay mode.
We do.
It's called "Eve Online."
I can't remember where, but I heard it won MMO of the year or something like that.
____________________________________________
im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
Something different than EVE. I am not stupid, I know about EVE. I want something fresh though. Something with a bit more than EVE. I hate being a "ship" the whole time. I want a little of everything.
I agree. Sandbox wins hands down. To me and to alot of others. I would play EVE but I hate its controls. Not my type of game anyway. I'm waiting for Darkfall and Renassaince. Two MMO's that leave off from where UO started. Two REAL Sandboxes.
------------------------------
atsdf.com
Among The Shadows
Darkfall Clan
God i love sandbox games, I want pre cu swg back i want AC2 back i want want want good games!
Playing: Everthing
Played: DAoC,AC2,EvE,SWG,WAR,MXO,CoX,EQ2,L2,LOTRO,SB,UO,WoW.
I have played every MMO that has ever come out.
So why does WoW win every year then? Does this mean that 9 million WoWdrones come over here to vote for WoW and some forum mod comes by and erases then?
Or are you just bitter EvE is more popular on this site than your Azeroth?
"Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god."
-- Jean Rostand
You guys need to be careful with statistics, what we have here on MMORPG.com is not a random sampling of the population and thus cannot be used accurately determine what people think is the best game. All it shows is that people that had the time and motivation to vote on this site prefer EVE. It is an accomplishment, but it does not mean all that much.
Anyways, say you were to log in in WoW and ask anyone at random what they think is the best MMO available at the time. I think you'll agree that most, not all but most, will throw their vote in favor of the game their playing ( in this case WoW). Now say you were to ask every WoW players what they think, you'd get quite a few millions votes for the game. That amount would be higher then for any other game, thus showing that currently what people playing MMO think is the best game is WoW. Does it means WoW is the best game? Certainly not, but it shows that people generally think so.
I'm with most of you guys, I do not think WoW is the best thing since sliced bread, but please let's not make number say things that aren't true.
we are a perfectly representative sample of MMO players...
Most of you are miserable and hate every mmo on the market.. or are obsessed with sharing EVE with the world. Your a horrible, horrible sample of mmorpg gamers.
after 6 or so years, I had to change it a little...
I don't mean to be rude but I am afraid you are rather missing the point. I was not talking about the relative subscription rates of Blizzard and CCP but their corporate capitalisation.
i love eve, it is the best mmo imo. I can do whatever i want, nothing tells me i cant do something.
Can you get out of your space buggy, walk around and take a leak?
I kid, i kid.
Probably the most sandboxy thing about EVE today is the "hands off" CS policy that allows you to scam.
But other than that, even EVE is becoming a lot more "WoW like."
Exclusive and rare faction loot is starting to play a larger role in gameplay, so much so that most players are either grinding loyalty points to get it, or raiding DED complexes to loot it.
Saying that EVE isn't level based is a bit misleading. While there are no hard classes, you are still very level restricted as to what you can or cannot fly or equip. These levels oftentimes take months of sub fees in realtime to acquire.
Crafting isn't very engaging. Basically it involves a lot of sitting around waiting for research labs to open up (which can be booked for months) so that your blueprints to become more efficient. After you do this for about a few months, crafting isn't very engagaing. It's not like EQ2 where you actually handle the materials. Rather, you dump a bunch of minerals into a factory , log back on in a couple of days, and receive your packaged goods.
A lot of the best things about sandbox (avatars, style, housing, interpersonal and situational charater roleplay) aren't available in EVE like they are in, say, SWG back when it was good. So while EVE might be a sandbox in a very loose way, it's not the sort of sandbox that people who want a real sanbox would find appealing.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE