"WoW....true character customization"???? LMAO........ no seriously.......
Indeed..
Why do people love to hype their favorite title to the point of silliness. WOW has allot of strong points however customization & graphics aren't isn't one of them.
Let it go no title is the best at everything or we'd all be playing it..now
When I played WOW I choose the traditional Paladin tank first healer second role & guess what, that option wasn't available. Now how can you say a title has true customization when the base role of a class isn't even an option.
In all fairness though I've heard things have gotten better.
Originally posted by gestalt11 Originally posted by vajuras
Originally posted by gestalt11
Originally posted by Xenduli
With WoW you could put your talent points wherever you like. if you just randomly distributed your points you'd be gimped, there are countless forums and posts about theorycrafting the talent trees. Some go so far as to have graphs and optimum dps with a system of attaching a value to a particular attribute or statistic. In reality there looks like there are lots of choices to be made with regards to talent trees, but in truth there are 3 as others have said a PvE, PvP and raid. There are slight variations in what talents to pick, but the core skills are chosen, because the ones NOT chosen plain suck. If players could pick talents without severely gimping their character then you could argue that WoW has true customisation. Who in their sane mind would deliberately gimp their character just to be different? Yes there are small tweaks, options, you could put a point here instead of there, but there are so many players out there that the bad options are debunked usually very quickly. So to sum up, there aren't many options, because a lot of the talents suck the big one forcing the majority to pick a "build". Blizzard could remove the option of talents altogether and just give 3 subclasses per class raid, pve and pvp. Would it matter in raid or pve? No. In PvP? Well any serious PvPer would want to optimise their setup anyway so it would probably be fairly similar. In arenas provided the game doesn't drag on, most PvP builds would own a more PvE one although you'd be surprised what great players can do.
Isn't this also true of many skill based games? People like the say they are more customizable but in reality they suffer the same cookie cutter effect.
Just because you can do something does mean its a good idea. Just because some skills system may have millions of variations, if only 5 are used by 90% of the population. Then really its customization is seriously flawed.
This doesn't apply to EvE skills i don't feel like explaining why suffice it to say they are highly differentiated and specialied , but it certainly is a concern for many other skill based games. Sure in theory they have good coustomization, but in practice how many have really been better than WoW?
I beat if someone went through it in details you might find many of these skill based are roughly equivalent to WoW in practice. By that I mean what a large portion of people actually use.
1- In a skill based title, a crafter can be a "pure" crafter. Can Be but do many people do it? Also You could easily make a skill game with separate crafting skill progression. In fact WoW crafting is skill/use base in advancent. 2- In a skill based title, a pvper can skillup purely from DUELs. Only if it has use based advance and use based advancement has a number of significant problems. Such the the first generation of true sucoessors to UO (EvE and Neocron) do not sue it at all or modify it. 3- In a skill based title, in order to be the best swordsman I just practice swinging my sword. Impossible in WoW you would have to level up to max cap. Again you are talking about use based advance not a skill based game. And this has no impact of customization. Just how you achieve the customization. 4- In a skill-based RPG, many allow you to learn ANY skill on one character. Impossible in WoW. Is this even a good idea? EvE theoetically could have a character that had every skill but its impossible due to the fact that they put too many skills in to ever actually get to even with a character made at release. They do not want anyone to get every skill, even though they like the idea of skill deversification as a reward. 5- Most skill-based systems lack Tactical Transparency. For example, in a Class based game you know a Mage on sight. in most skill-based titles, you have no idea what your enemy is capable of If we call Guild Wars a class based game then this is not true. In fact Guild Wars makes it far far more uncertain than any skill based game. I have said in this thread that i think GW is a special case but either way it illustrates that a locked down hard to change spec is what really ruins this. Because you only need to see a person once in a skill based game to know, where as in GW you NEVER know. Clearly real freeform customization like what GW has offers more and better tactical transparency and it has nothing to do with class OR skills. 6- Skill-based systems are freeform. You can pursue any skill at anytime. Can yes, but do many people do take advantage of it? If they aren't your system is not actually diverse. It is not offering people a wealth of options with good trade offs. It may offer a wealth of options but that doesn't mean it offers a wealth of GOOD options.
The ideal skill-based system hasn't really been presented in mmorpgs so far either
I was responding to the poster that claimed WoW was the same as a skill-based system. I have no desire to debate what system is better. My goal is merely to point out key differences between WoW and skill-based systems
Originally posted by Vincenz From what I've seen of WoW, characters still all fit into the archetypal system of most MMOs. Frankly, I think DDO's cusomization is far superior. Feats, skills, enhancements, stats, and most importantly the ability to multiclass means you can make a fighter/bard mix unlike any other who's a completely viable and powerful character. Melee casters, battle clerics, and on and on.
Didn't play DDO but I've played Neverwinter Nights RPGs which sounds like they both use the same system (multi-classing, feats, etc). Yeah, D&D system is a lot more complex I agree (then World of Warcraft)
Did anyone mention FFXI? From what I seen of it Classes can be combined. Rappelz was very good at launch but I left before they introduced 'branching' at certain levels. I'm not a big fan of making choices I cant correct later...
From what I've seen of WoW, characters still all fit into the archetypal system of most MMOs. Frankly, I think DDO's cusomization is far superior. Feats, skills, enhancements, stats, and most importantly the ability to multiclass means you can make a fighter/bard mix unlike any other who's a completely viable and powerful character. Melee casters, battle clerics, and on and on.
Didn't play DDO but I've played Neverwinter Nights RPGs which sounds like they both use the same system (multi-classing, feats, etc). Yeah, D&D system is a lot more complex I agree (then World of Warcraft)
Did anyone mention FFXI? From what I seen of it Classes can be combined. Rappelz was very good at launch but I left before they introduced 'branching' at certain levels. I'm not a big fan of making choices I cant correct later...
Its not exactly the same, but its close enough that NWN should give you a close enough approximation. Or any knowledge of D&D 3rd edition really.
FFXI classes can be combined, but its not the to extent of Guild Wars or DDO. The secondary class is quite limited. It can be important though. I am not an expert on FFXI I gathered that the various key builds were not super differentiated. But its still looked like a pretty cool system.
I think one of the the key aspects of this discuss when you compare say DDO, Guild Wars, CoX and some arbitrary skill based game, lets just say Pre-CU SWG, that the key componenet are MODULAR. But WoW, EQ, EQ2 are not modular. They are a huge comglomerations onto which you can add a relatively few extra powers via talents/AA or simply enhance the static collection of powers.
There are many ways to make it so that a character can be built out of pieces. These could be D&D like feats ,or Guild Wars abilities, or skills or combinations of these. The pieces may be different but they can accomplish similar things.
And I think that to some extent people who know enough about the various games should agree the modular games clearly have better customaiztion than the non-modular games.
Lastly the customizable/modular games have far better replayability. CoX and DDO show this, most players have tons of Alts and enjoy making many different kinds of characeters.
Totally agree, and much like pre-cu SWG, there aren't "cookie cutters". Sure, there's flavor of the week (this character is UBER) builds that people use, but there's literally hundreds of viable combinations as well...each playing completely differently in style and aptitude.
It's so relative. The thing is, A LOT of MMOs these days have no customization at all, which makes WoW's system look great, in comparison.
I mean, in many games, the devs never even think to give players any choices or control over their characters, or decide against it for balance reasons. You have a few classes, and that's it. If even that.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
It's so relative. The thing is, A LOT of MMOs these days have no customization at all, which makes WoW's system look great, in comparison. I mean, in many games, the devs never even think to give players any choices or control over their characters, or decide against it for balance reasons. You have a few classes, and that's it. If even that.
While this may be true, it far from provides any claim to being the "only MMO with TRUE character customization".
Maybe the post should be entitled "WoW...our character customization doesn't suck as much as some games!"
I played many mmorpgs and i think blizzard is the only company that really perfected the talent system. And still does, i have yet to play a mmorpg with a AA/Talent system like WoWs, because for one reason. When we play WoW from 1-40 40 talent points in there really is a TRUE change to the class it makes it feel like playing a whole class all together kind of like a new class. Once at 40 you can tell a major difference between a Prot war/ fury war/ arms war , Holy priest/Shadow priest, etc. I think talents are a must have in any mmorpg because it really allows you to be more unique to your class WoWs system is ALMOST skill based mixed with a level based system. I Tried EQ2 talent system and for some reason it just doesnt hit the spot like WoWs does.
WoWs talent system is ok. I don't think its "customizable". The talent trees do not allow you to have a gimped character. There for they are wiping your ass. Games that allow you to make a gimped character feel "real" to me. Why? With no penalty or risk it just seems like a free be. As does much of WoW but thats another story.
When you factor in WoW's character visual customization, item diversity/customization, skill sets. I think it is the least customizable game out. My old character looked like a clone to every other toon of the same class/race.
Lastly the customizable/modular games have far better replayability. CoX and DDO show this, most players have tons of Alts and enjoy making many different kinds of characeters.[/b][/quote]
It depends.
In mmorpg space there are games like EVE Online in which is still highly replayable with alts due to the way you select primary skills which vastly speeds up training times.... So you still see a lot of alts in EVE online. I made an alt within the first month I think. Some purchase 2 accounts though to leverage the time training (not my thing personally)
In TES (elder scrolls) you also select primary skills for characters. Most players seem to have a wide selection of alts (I know I have a fleet). Primary skills train faster, making you more efficient in a specific area very quickly
Interestingly, for all the bashing of 'class-based' development, it does offer more replayability than 'skill-based' development. It is really hard to just make 200 skills and let people choose from them - they will just pick the same skills and ignore everything else. Different classes are an incentive to try something new.
Interestingly, for all the bashing of 'class-based' development, it does offer more replayability than 'skill-based' development. It is really hard to just make 200 skills and let people choose from them - they will just pick the same skills and ignore everything else. Different classes are an incentive to try something new.
this is in fact incorrect and a myth. The idea of a skill-based character progression/development is that you CAN change your character to fit your play-style. That means, one character can become all the classes out there. That is the replayability in the skill-based system.
As to incentive, they have the same incentive, just different ways to do it. (Class-based uses alts to give people the way to test different classes, while skill-based uses the available skills with set limits to control the skill gain and give the player the way to change their characters.)
As to people picking the same skilla nd ignore the rest, that is false as well. Since you are not anybody else but yourself, so you can only speak for yourself. I've seen (In SWG Pre-CU) of all types of mixing in professions, and many even pick those profession that were considered as broken or just plain suck. Yet that doesn't affect the game-play at all. These players are still invited into groups, and still can enjoy themselves.
Of course there will always min/max'ers basing their build on the FOTM when developers are trying to balance, but most of the people don't do that.
people cant handle choices and decisions... .. Most people consider choices and decisions too "hardcore" and not casual friendly or something like that.. Everyone just wants to skip it all, and be given the best possible everything.. Most dont want to earn anything or feel unique.. They are conten with being the same power based class that runs around pounding everyone..
They should make an mmo called Red vs. Blue. And in it, you either pick a RED soldier or a BLUE soldier, and in it, if you are RED then you wear a MASSIVE armor, like the best possible armor EVER in a game.. they can call it the BFA 5k (Big F*cking armor) but they will have the weakest weapon in the game.. a wooden rod.. and the blue soldiers have the BFG 5k, and only wear a cloth vest... NONE of this can ever change, and no stats can ever be obtained,,
Take all the choices out of a game and depth out of a game and everyone will be happy...
I cannot STAND cookie cutter games... and I think ALL games should use the Anarchy Online template where ANY class can use ANY weapon, but some classes can use certain weapons BETTER than others... This at least CAN offer choices that make you unique.. FEATS and PERKS are a MUST kinda like those achievements in Eq2... You really HAVE to have these features to be unique.. Not everyone uis content with playing the same guy as everyone else, and in my opinion thats a mold that most crunch happy asian games follow....
Originally posted by Xanrae Interestingly, for all the bashing of 'class-based' development, it does offer more replayability than 'skill-based' development. It is really hard to just make 200 skills and let people choose from them - they will just pick the same skills and ignore everything else. Different classes are an incentive to try something new.
That can occur in any system not balanced well my friend. Dont make me go dig up a PVP film from City of Heroes where you see -16- players slinging ICE primary. It has been this way for years in City of Villians. ICE Corrupters ruled. Now Fire has been buffed I stand corrected....
Now we might see FIRE or ICE Corrupters in high level PVP!
[b][i]Any system, balanced poorly, will lead to FoTM (Flavor of the Month)[/b][/i]
Talents, skill-based, Classes, CCG (card based game aka Guid Wars), etc can all lead to FoTM if the Developers do not carefully attempt to balance every set, every power to make them viable. When I played Guild Wars it seemed like one of the most balanced games too me. Now those devs understand balance (I cant speak for post-factions though havent pvped in awhile)
Pure skill based RPGs like GURPS lost out to D&D as it is so much easier to make up a class and understand it's role than it is to forge your own path. Also, skill-based games let you royally goof up your character relative to optimized builds.
Most people don't want to min/max their characters, they just want to play and have fun. I loved GURPS but had to practically build half of my player's characters.
What some people call "Cookie Cutter" others call "Structured." WoW provides a lot of structure but gives you the ability to vary a great deal within that structure. This works better for most people than a skill based game.
I do have one criticism of skill based games, BTW. In a skill-based setup you have nearly infinite combinations of possibilities, but only one is the best. Someone will figure out the optimum and you will see a lot of the same build.
I played many mmorpgs and i think blizzard is the only company that really perfected the talent system. And still does, i have yet to play a mmorpg with a AA/Talent system like WoWs, because for one reason. When we play WoW from 1-40 40 talent points in there really is a TRUE change to the class it makes it feel like playing a whole class all together kind of like a new class. Once at 40 you can tell a major difference between a Prot war/ fury war/ arms war , Holy priest/Shadow priest, etc. I think talents are a must have in any mmorpg because it really allows you to be more unique to your class WoWs system is ALMOST skill based mixed with a level based system. I Tried EQ2 talent system and for some reason it just doesnt hit the spot like WoWs does.
WoW has a horrible talent system. There's only 1 way to spec per class in pvp and 1 way to spec per class in pve. In order to make a perfect system, they would have to make it so that ALL builds were at least viable in all situations to some extent.
I played many mmorpgs and i think blizzard is the only company that really perfected the talent system. And still does, i have yet to play a mmorpg with a AA/Talent system like WoWs, because for one reason. When we play WoW from 1-40 40 talent points in there really is a TRUE change to the class it makes it feel like playing a whole class all together kind of like a new class. Once at 40 you can tell a major difference between a Prot war/ fury war/ arms war , Holy priest/Shadow priest, etc. I think talents are a must have in any mmorpg because it really allows you to be more unique to your class WoWs system is ALMOST skill based mixed with a level based system. I Tried EQ2 talent system and for some reason it just doesnt hit the spot like WoWs does.
WoW has a horrible talent system. There's only 1 way to spec per class in pvp and 1 way to spec per class in pve. In order to make a perfect system, they would have to make it so that ALL builds were at least viable in all situations to some extent.
That is the price you pay for safety. This is the WoW calculation on many things.
Its not horrible its just mediocre. But while a more flexible system may rise to greater heights, it also sinks to greater dpehts of gimpitude.
It's so relative. The thing is, A LOT of MMOs these days have no customization at all, which makes WoW's system look great, in comparison. I mean, in many games, the devs never even think to give players any choices or control over their characters, or decide against it for balance reasons. You have a few classes, and that's it. If even that.
While this may be true, it far from provides any claim to being the "only MMO with TRUE character customization".
Maybe the post should be entitled "WoW...our character customization doesn't suck as much as some games!"
Well, yeah I guess I'm referring more to some of the replies, not the OP, although his exaggerated view could even be understandable, depending on what he's played. Ignorant, sure, but understandably so.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
WoW has a horrible talent system. There's only 1 way to spec per class in pvp and 1 way to spec per class in pve. In order to make a perfect system, they would have to make it so that ALL builds were at least viable in all situations to some extent.
Any system will be that way, at the margins. Any set of rules, when examined, will provide an optimal way of proceeding -- a min/max solution. Sometimes the min/max solution is more obvious, sometimes less so, but it is always there, in any rule system.
WoW's custumization is not the best, but it is better than what most of these naysayers are stating it to be.
Just head on over to a class forum in Wow and you will see characters guides. In those character guides you will see up to 30 different builds for each class.
Wows talent trees ristrict you to being a certain form of your class but you sitll get to be a variation of that form. You can protection paladin, but within that you can also be an AE dmg prot pali. There is also PvP spec protection, blocker prot, healing protect, high damage protect, and the list goes on.
A slight change around of a few points in a talent tree and you can change just how well your character will perform in a specific job.
Here's a link to the warlock forum. At the end of his post he list out 11 different builds for the warlock class and explains strengths and weakness.
I played many mmorpgs and i think blizzard is the only company that really perfected the talent system. And still does, i have yet to play a mmorpg with a AA/Talent system like WoWs, because for one reason. When we play WoW from 1-40 40 talent points in there really is a TRUE change to the class it makes it feel like playing a whole class all together kind of like a new class. Once at 40 you can tell a major difference between a Prot war/ fury war/ arms war , Holy priest/Shadow priest, etc. I think talents are a must have in any mmorpg because it really allows you to be more unique to your class WoWs system is ALMOST skill based mixed with a level based system. I Tried EQ2 talent system and for some reason it just doesnt hit the spot like WoWs does.
WoW has a horrible talent system. There's only 1 way to spec per class in pvp and 1 way to spec per class in pve. In order to make a perfect system, they would have to make it so that ALL builds were at least viable in all situations to some extent.
You failed to mention which game has a better system. WoW's system may not be perfect but it is the best, as the OP had said.
It seems that there is no doubt that WoW has the best Xter customization( Talent sys), best perfromance and biggest population. It is so good it appeals to some many people.
The most notorious criticism levelled at this game is that a lot of kids play it, and this is Blizzards fault for making a game that appeals to all, ie it is over successful !?!
One way to look at this is that the first M in MMO stands for Massive, and should reflect society, there are kids in society and there are ways of dealing with them, and how they are dealt with is down to each individual, not the game designer.
And finally if WoW was not pure quality all the marketing (as a lot of peeps believe good marketing was what made WoW great) in the world could not make a crap game as successful as wow.
Note most of the Naysayers are just tried/bored of WoW which is OK, what is not OK is to play WoW for 2 years (enjoy it) get bored of it and then start thrashing the game at any opportunity.
WoW has a horrible talent system. There's only 1 way to spec per class in pvp and 1 way to spec per class in pve. In order to make a perfect system, they would have to make it so that ALL builds were at least viable in all situations to some extent.
You failed to mention which game has a better system. WoW's system may not be perfect but it is the best, as the OP had said.
It seems that there is no doubt that WoW has the best Xter customization( Talent sys), best perfromance and biggest population. It is so good it appeals to some many people.
This is nonsense. WoW might have some positive sides, but character customization IS surely not one of them.
It's silly cookie cutter system. You have 9 classes and each class a few options that increase your generic stats like +X critical strike with something or +X damage with some magic school etc... That's about it.
Ok what has better character customization: Just a few examples if you don't mind.
DDo = You have 11 classes, your character can be multiclassed (can have 2 or 3 classes at the same time sharing their abilities, where each class has its own level. So at level 14 your character can be for example level 7 cleric, level 3 rogue, level 4 mage being able to cast spells as level 4 mage, heal as level 7 cleric and open locks as level 3 rogue).. In addition you have a list of maybe 300 feats to choose each odd level. Then you have noncombat skills like jump, swim, spot, listen that are related to your basic attributes (str, dex...) .. I could go on you have the picture. Best customization undoubtedly around.
CoX = City of Villains & heroes have very good character customization. Same as in DDo, there are players playing both games just for the great customization and have tons of alts.
GW = As much as I don't like GW, the game has superior customization to WoW. The simple fact you have 300 spells and you have to choose 8 to fight at any time gives tons of choices how to be different. Plus being able to have 2 classes of course.
Vanguard = 19 classes, 15 races. Eventho customization is not the VG strongest point, it still is better than WoW. Out of the tons of possibilities coming out from 19 races & 15 classes you choose around 16 points each level to distribute among your attributes. The attributes do practically the same as talents in WoW. Higher vitality = bonus to healing spells, higher wisdom = better critical spell chance etc. So that way you basically choose what you want. It's obviously more non-linear as in WoW, because you can focus on your spell critical chance even as a warrior..
Actually, please tell me one game that has worse character customization than WoW. (Those that are p2p)
Final Fantasy Online.
But for the most part, I do agree with you... WoW does have just about the worst out of the games I've played. My current F2P, Perfect World, Is better than EQ2, Vanguard, or any P2P's I've played.
WoW has a horrible talent system. There's only 1 way to spec per class in pvp and 1 way to spec per class in pve. In order to make a perfect system, they would have to make it so that ALL builds were at least viable in all situations to some extent.
You failed to mention which game has a better system. WoW's system may not be perfect but it is the best, as the OP had said.
It seems that there is no doubt that WoW has the best Xter customization( Talent sys), best perfromance and biggest population. It is so good it appeals to some many people.
This is nonsense. WoW might have some positive sides, but character customization IS surely not one of them.
It's silly cookie cutter system. You have 9 classes and each class a few options that increase your generic stats like +X critical strike with something or +X damage with some magic school etc... That's about it.
Ok what has better character customization: Just a few examples if you don't mind.
DDo = You have 11 classes, your character can be multiclassed (can have 2 or 3 classes at the same time sharing their abilities, where each class has its own level. So at level 14 your character can be for example level 7 cleric, level 3 rogue, level 4 mage being able to cast spells as level 4 mage, heal as level 7 cleric and open locks as level 3 rogue).. In addition you have a list of maybe 300 feats to choose each odd level. Then you have noncombat skills like jump, swim, spot, listen that are related to your basic attributes (str, dex...) .. I could go on you have the picture. Best customization undoubtedly around.
CoX = City of Villains & heroes have very good character customization. Same as in DDo, there are players playing both games just for the great customization and have tons of alts.
GW = As much as I don't like GW, the game has superior customization to WoW. The simple fact you have 300 spells and you have to choose 8 to fight at any time gives tons of choices how to be different. Plus being able to have 2 classes of course.
Vanguard = 19 classes, 15 races. Eventho customization is not the VG strongest point, it still is better than WoW. Out of the tons of possibilities coming out from 19 races & 15 classes you choose around 16 points each level to distribute among your attributes. The attributes do practically the same as talents in WoW. Higher vitality = bonus to healing spells, higher wisdom = better critical spell chance etc. So that way you basically choose what you want. It's obviously more non-linear as in WoW, because you can focus on your spell critical chance even as a warrior..
Well WoW's customization is better than Vanguards as we established here
So dont really need to cover old ground, but to summerize VG is waiting for an AA system to be implemented to bring it line with what other MMO's offer and hopefully it will be better than WoWs.
As for GW 8 out of 300 different skills is good, but this game is slightly different from the way other games are designed, only 8 skills at a time SUP with that .
Not played DDO so can't comment (but DDO is dead anyway) nor COX
This is nonsense. WoW might have some positive sides, but character customization IS surely not one of them.
It's silly cookie cutter system. You have 9 classes and each class a few options that increase your generic stats like +X critical strike with something or +X damage with some magic school etc... That's about it. Ok what has better character customization: Just a few examples if you don't mind. DDo = You have 11 classes, your character can be multiclassed (can have 2 or 3 classes at the same time sharing their abilities, where each class has its own level. So at level 14 your character can be for example level 7 cleric, level 3 rogue, level 4 mage being able to cast spells as level 4 mage, heal as level 7 cleric and open locks as level 3 rogue).. In addition you have a list of maybe 300 feats to choose each odd level. Then you have noncombat skills like jump, swim, spot, listen that are related to your basic attributes (str, dex...) .. I could go on you have the picture. Best customization undoubtedly around. CoX = City of Villains & heroes have very good character customization. Same as in DDo, there are players playing both games just for the great customization and have tons of alts. GW = As much as I don't like GW, the game has superior customization to WoW. The simple fact you have 300 spells and you have to choose 8 to fight at any time gives tons of choices how to be different. Plus being able to have 2 classes of course. Vanguard = 19 classes, 15 races. Eventho customization is not the VG strongest point, it still is better than WoW. Out of the tons of possibilities coming out from 19 races & 15 classes you choose around 16 points each level to distribute among your attributes. The attributes do practically the same as talents in WoW. Higher vitality = bonus to healing spells, higher wisdom = better critical spell chance etc. So that way you basically choose what you want. It's obviously more non-linear as in WoW, because you can focus on your spell critical chance even as a warrior..
Well WoW's customization is better than Vanguards as we established here
So dont really need to cover old ground, but to summerize VG is waiting for an AA system to be implemented to bring it line with what other MMO's offer and hopefully it will be better than WoWs.
As for GW 8 out of 300 different skills is good, but this game is slightly different from the way other games are designed, only 8 skills at a time SUP with that .
Not played DDO so can't comment (but DDO is dead anyway) nor COX
That link proves nothing and it didn't establish anything. It's your opinion.
You should try DDo and CoX at least the trial to change your mind. You should realize that the customization in WoW IS linear as hell. All abilities are written and everything is controlled by the limit of talent points. In DDo you have nonlinear multiclassing as well in GW. Nonlinear is also in DDo the attribute distribute (as in VG) which gives any class any kind of bonus they want. They don't need to have special talents to get +10% life, they just put points into constitution. Simple as that...
And DDo is not dead, you ignorant. Just because it doesn't have milions of subs it doesn't mean it's dead. Not all games have 120$ mil for dev+marketing as WoW had so they don't rely on milions. DDo has loyal 40k base.
Comments
Indeed..
Why do people love to hype their favorite title to the point of silliness. WOW has allot of strong points however customization & graphics aren't isn't one of them.
Let it go no title is the best at everything or we'd all be playing it..now
When I played WOW I choose the traditional Paladin tank first healer second role & guess what, that option wasn't available. Now how can you say a title has true customization when the base role of a class isn't even an option.
In all fairness though I've heard things have gotten better.
Dutchess Zarraa Voltayre
Reborn/Zero Sum/Ancient Legacy/Jagged Legion/Feared/Nuke & Pave.
Just because you can do something does mean its a good idea. Just because some skills system may have millions of variations, if only 5 are used by 90% of the population. Then really its customization is seriously flawed.
This doesn't apply to EvE skills i don't feel like explaining why suffice it to say they are highly differentiated and specialied , but it certainly is a concern for many other skill based games.
Sure in theory they have good coustomization, but in practice how many have really been better than WoW?
I beat if someone went through it in details you might find many of these skill based are roughly equivalent to WoW in practice. By that I mean what a large portion of people actually use.
1- In a skill based title, a crafter can be a "pure" crafter. Can Be but do many people do it? Also You could easily make a skill game with separate crafting skill progression. In fact WoW crafting is skill/use base in advancent.
2- In a skill based title, a pvper can skillup purely from DUELs. Only if it has use based advance and use based advancement has a number of significant problems. Such the the first generation of true sucoessors to UO (EvE and Neocron) do not sue it at all or modify it.
3- In a skill based title, in order to be the best swordsman I just practice swinging my sword. Impossible in WoW you would have to level up to max cap. Again you are talking about use based advance not a skill based game. And this has no impact of customization. Just how you achieve the customization.
4- In a skill-based RPG, many allow you to learn ANY skill on one character. Impossible in WoW. Is this even a good idea? EvE theoetically could have a character that had every skill but its impossible due to the fact that they put too many skills in to ever actually get to even with a character made at release. They do not want anyone to get every skill, even though they like the idea of skill deversification as a reward.
5- Most skill-based systems lack Tactical Transparency. For example, in a Class based game you know a Mage on sight. in most skill-based titles, you have no idea what your enemy is capable of
If we call Guild Wars a class based game then this is not true. In fact Guild Wars makes it far far more uncertain than any skill based game. I have said in this thread that i think GW is a special case but either way it illustrates that a locked down hard to change spec is what really ruins this. Because you only need to see a person once in a skill based game to know, where as in GW you NEVER know. Clearly real freeform customization like what GW has offers more and better tactical transparency and it has nothing to do with class OR skills.
6- Skill-based systems are freeform. You can pursue any skill at anytime.
Can yes, but do many people do take advantage of it? If they aren't your system is not actually diverse. It is not offering people a wealth of options with good trade offs. It may offer a wealth of options but that doesn't mean it offers a wealth of GOOD options.
The ideal skill-based system hasn't really been presented in mmorpgs so far either
I was responding to the poster that claimed WoW was the same as a skill-based system. I have no desire to debate what system is better. My goal is merely to point out key differences between WoW and skill-based systems
Didn't play DDO but I've played Neverwinter Nights RPGs which sounds like they both use the same system (multi-classing, feats, etc). Yeah, D&D system is a lot more complex I agree (then World of Warcraft)
Did anyone mention FFXI? From what I seen of it Classes can be combined. Rappelz was very good at launch but I left before they introduced 'branching' at certain levels. I'm not a big fan of making choices I cant correct later...
Didn't play DDO but I've played Neverwinter Nights RPGs which sounds like they both use the same system (multi-classing, feats, etc). Yeah, D&D system is a lot more complex I agree (then World of Warcraft)
Did anyone mention FFXI? From what I seen of it Classes can be combined. Rappelz was very good at launch but I left before they introduced 'branching' at certain levels. I'm not a big fan of making choices I cant correct later...
Its not exactly the same, but its close enough that NWN should give you a close enough approximation. Or any knowledge of D&D 3rd edition really.FFXI classes can be combined, but its not the to extent of Guild Wars or DDO. The secondary class is quite limited. It can be important though. I am not an expert on FFXI I gathered that the various key builds were not super differentiated. But its still looked like a pretty cool system.
I think one of the the key aspects of this discuss when you compare say DDO, Guild Wars, CoX and some arbitrary skill based game, lets just say Pre-CU SWG, that the key componenet are MODULAR. But WoW, EQ, EQ2 are not modular. They are a huge comglomerations onto which you can add a relatively few extra powers via talents/AA or simply enhance the static collection of powers.
There are many ways to make it so that a character can be built out of pieces. These could be D&D like feats ,or Guild Wars abilities, or skills or combinations of these. The pieces may be different but they can accomplish similar things.
And I think that to some extent people who know enough about the various games should agree the modular games clearly have better customaiztion than the non-modular games.
Lastly the customizable/modular games have far better replayability. CoX and DDO show this, most players have tons of Alts and enjoy making many different kinds of characeters.
Totally agree, and much like pre-cu SWG, there aren't "cookie cutters". Sure, there's flavor of the week (this character is UBER) builds that people use, but there's literally hundreds of viable combinations as well...each playing completely differently in style and aptitude.
It's so relative. The thing is, A LOT of MMOs these days have no customization at all, which makes WoW's system look great, in comparison.
I mean, in many games, the devs never even think to give players any choices or control over their characters, or decide against it for balance reasons. You have a few classes, and that's it. If even that.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
While this may be true, it far from provides any claim to being the "only MMO with TRUE character customization".
Maybe the post should be entitled "WoW...our character customization doesn't suck as much as some games!"
WoWs talent system is ok. I don't think its "customizable". The talent trees do not allow you to have a gimped character. There for they are wiping your ass. Games that allow you to make a gimped character feel "real" to me. Why? With no penalty or risk it just seems like a free be. As does much of WoW but thats another story.
When you factor in WoW's character visual customization, item diversity/customization, skill sets. I think it is the least customizable game out. My old character looked like a clone to every other toon of the same class/race.
[quote]Originally posted by gestalt11
Lastly the customizable/modular games have far better replayability. CoX and DDO show this, most players have tons of Alts and enjoy making many different kinds of characeters.[/b][/quote]
It depends.
In mmorpg space there are games like EVE Online in which is still highly replayable with alts due to the way you select primary skills which vastly speeds up training times.... So you still see a lot of alts in EVE online. I made an alt within the first month I think. Some purchase 2 accounts though to leverage the time training (not my thing personally)
In TES (elder scrolls) you also select primary skills for characters. Most players seem to have a wide selection of alts (I know I have a fleet). Primary skills train faster, making you more efficient in a specific area very quickly
Interestingly, for all the bashing of 'class-based' development, it does offer more replayability than 'skill-based' development. It is really hard to just make 200 skills and let people choose from them - they will just pick the same skills and ignore everything else. Different classes are an incentive to try something new.
this is in fact incorrect and a myth. The idea of a skill-based character progression/development is that you CAN change your character to fit your play-style. That means, one character can become all the classes out there. That is the replayability in the skill-based system.
As to incentive, they have the same incentive, just different ways to do it. (Class-based uses alts to give people the way to test different classes, while skill-based uses the available skills with set limits to control the skill gain and give the player the way to change their characters.)
As to people picking the same skilla nd ignore the rest, that is false as well. Since you are not anybody else but yourself, so you can only speak for yourself. I've seen (In SWG Pre-CU) of all types of mixing in professions, and many even pick those profession that were considered as broken or just plain suck. Yet that doesn't affect the game-play at all. These players are still invited into groups, and still can enjoy themselves.
Of course there will always min/max'ers basing their build on the FOTM when developers are trying to balance, but most of the people don't do that.
Current MMO: FFXIV:ARR
Past MMO: Way too many (P2P and F2P)
people cant handle choices and decisions... .. Most people consider choices and decisions too "hardcore" and not casual friendly or something like that.. Everyone just wants to skip it all, and be given the best possible everything.. Most dont want to earn anything or feel unique.. They are conten with being the same power based class that runs around pounding everyone..
They should make an mmo called Red vs. Blue. And in it, you either pick a RED soldier or a BLUE soldier, and in it, if you are RED then you wear a MASSIVE armor, like the best possible armor EVER in a game.. they can call it the BFA 5k (Big F*cking armor) but they will have the weakest weapon in the game.. a wooden rod.. and the blue soldiers have the BFG 5k, and only wear a cloth vest... NONE of this can ever change, and no stats can ever be obtained,,
Take all the choices out of a game and depth out of a game and everyone will be happy...
I cannot STAND cookie cutter games... and I think ALL games should use the Anarchy Online template where ANY class can use ANY weapon, but some classes can use certain weapons BETTER than others... This at least CAN offer choices that make you unique.. FEATS and PERKS are a MUST kinda like those achievements in Eq2... You really HAVE to have these features to be unique.. Not everyone uis content with playing the same guy as everyone else, and in my opinion thats a mold that most crunch happy asian games follow....
That can occur in any system not balanced well my friend. Dont make me go dig up a PVP film from City of Heroes where you see -16- players slinging ICE primary. It has been this way for years in City of Villians. ICE Corrupters ruled. Now Fire has been buffed I stand corrected....
Now we might see FIRE or ICE Corrupters in high level PVP!
[b][i]Any system, balanced poorly, will lead to FoTM (Flavor of the Month)[/b][/i]
Talents, skill-based, Classes, CCG (card based game aka Guid Wars), etc can all lead to FoTM if the Developers do not carefully attempt to balance every set, every power to make them viable. When I played Guild Wars it seemed like one of the most balanced games too me. Now those devs understand balance (I cant speak for post-factions though havent pvped in awhile)
Pure skill based RPGs like GURPS lost out to D&D as it is so much easier to make up a class and understand it's role than it is to forge your own path. Also, skill-based games let you royally goof up your character relative to optimized builds.
Most people don't want to min/max their characters, they just want to play and have fun. I loved GURPS but had to practically build half of my player's characters.
What some people call "Cookie Cutter" others call "Structured." WoW provides a lot of structure but gives you the ability to vary a great deal within that structure. This works better for most people than a skill based game.
I do have one criticism of skill based games, BTW. In a skill-based setup you have nearly infinite combinations of possibilities, but only one is the best. Someone will figure out the optimum and you will see a lot of the same build.
WoW has a horrible talent system. There's only 1 way to spec per class in pvp and 1 way to spec per class in pve. In order to make a perfect system, they would have to make it so that ALL builds were at least viable in all situations to some extent.
Do you know for certain?
WoW has a horrible talent system. There's only 1 way to spec per class in pvp and 1 way to spec per class in pve. In order to make a perfect system, they would have to make it so that ALL builds were at least viable in all situations to some extent.
That is the price you pay for safety. This is the WoW calculation on many things.
Its not horrible its just mediocre. But while a more flexible system may rise to greater heights, it also sinks to greater dpehts of gimpitude.
While this may be true, it far from provides any claim to being the "only MMO with TRUE character customization".
Maybe the post should be entitled "WoW...our character customization doesn't suck as much as some games!"
Well, yeah
I guess I'm referring more to some of the replies, not the OP, although his exaggerated view could even be understandable, depending on what he's played. Ignorant, sure, but understandably so.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
Any system will be that way, at the margins. Any set of rules, when examined, will provide an optimal way of proceeding -- a min/max solution. Sometimes the min/max solution is more obvious, sometimes less so, but it is always there, in any rule system.
WoW's custumization is not the best, but it is better than what most of these naysayers are stating it to be.
Just head on over to a class forum in Wow and you will see characters guides. In those character guides you will see up to 30 different builds for each class.
Wows talent trees ristrict you to being a certain form of your class but you sitll get to be a variation of that form. You can protection paladin, but within that you can also be an AE dmg prot pali. There is also PvP spec protection, blocker prot, healing protect, high damage protect, and the list goes on.
A slight change around of a few points in a talent tree and you can change just how well your character will perform in a specific job.
Here's a link to the warlock forum. At the end of his post he list out 11 different builds for the warlock class and explains strengths and weakness.
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html;jsessionid=78F77A6D3D459CAEFB51AB72CFA2364A?topicId=81953310&sid=1
The restrictions in WoW are not as bad as people think.
WoW has a horrible talent system. There's only 1 way to spec per class in pvp and 1 way to spec per class in pve. In order to make a perfect system, they would have to make it so that ALL builds were at least viable in all situations to some extent.
You failed to mention which game has a better system. WoW's system may not be perfect but it is the best, as the OP had said.It seems that there is no doubt that WoW has the best Xter customization( Talent sys), best perfromance and biggest population. It is so good it appeals to some many people.
The most notorious criticism levelled at this game is that a lot of kids play it, and this is Blizzards fault for making a game that appeals to all, ie it is over successful !?!
One way to look at this is that the first M in MMO stands for Massive, and should reflect society, there are kids in society and there are ways of dealing with them, and how they are dealt with is down to each individual, not the game designer.
And finally if WoW was not pure quality all the marketing (as a lot of peeps believe good marketing was what made WoW great) in the world could not make a crap game as successful as wow.
Note most of the Naysayers are just tried/bored of WoW which is OK, what is not OK is to play WoW for 2 years (enjoy it) get bored of it and then start thrashing the game at any opportunity.
You failed to mention which game has a better system. WoW's system may not be perfect but it is the best, as the OP had said.It seems that there is no doubt that WoW has the best Xter customization( Talent sys), best perfromance and biggest population. It is so good it appeals to some many people.
This is nonsense. WoW might have some positive sides, but character customization IS surely not one of them.
It's silly cookie cutter system. You have 9 classes and each class a few options that increase your generic stats like +X critical strike with something or +X damage with some magic school etc... That's about it.
Ok what has better character customization: Just a few examples if you don't mind.
DDo = You have 11 classes, your character can be multiclassed (can have 2 or 3 classes at the same time sharing their abilities, where each class has its own level. So at level 14 your character can be for example level 7 cleric, level 3 rogue, level 4 mage being able to cast spells as level 4 mage, heal as level 7 cleric and open locks as level 3 rogue).. In addition you have a list of maybe 300 feats to choose each odd level. Then you have noncombat skills like jump, swim, spot, listen that are related to your basic attributes (str, dex...) .. I could go on you have the picture. Best customization undoubtedly around.
CoX = City of Villains & heroes have very good character customization. Same as in DDo, there are players playing both games just for the great customization and have tons of alts.
GW = As much as I don't like GW, the game has superior customization to WoW. The simple fact you have 300 spells and you have to choose 8 to fight at any time gives tons of choices how to be different. Plus being able to have 2 classes of course.
Vanguard = 19 classes, 15 races. Eventho customization is not the VG strongest point, it still is better than WoW. Out of the tons of possibilities coming out from 19 races & 15 classes you choose around 16 points each level to distribute among your attributes. The attributes do practically the same as talents in WoW. Higher vitality = bonus to healing spells, higher wisdom = better critical spell chance etc. So that way you basically choose what you want. It's obviously more non-linear as in WoW, because you can focus on your spell critical chance even as a warrior..
REALITY CHECK
Actually, please tell me one game that has worse character customization than WoW. (Those that are p2p)
REALITY CHECK
But for the most part, I do agree with you... WoW does have just about the worst out of the games I've played. My current F2P, Perfect World, Is better than EQ2, Vanguard, or any P2P's I've played.
You failed to mention which game has a better system. WoW's system may not be perfect but it is the best, as the OP had said.It seems that there is no doubt that WoW has the best Xter customization( Talent sys), best perfromance and biggest population. It is so good it appeals to some many people.
This is nonsense. WoW might have some positive sides, but character customization IS surely not one of them.
It's silly cookie cutter system. You have 9 classes and each class a few options that increase your generic stats like +X critical strike with something or +X damage with some magic school etc... That's about it.
Ok what has better character customization: Just a few examples if you don't mind.
DDo = You have 11 classes, your character can be multiclassed (can have 2 or 3 classes at the same time sharing their abilities, where each class has its own level. So at level 14 your character can be for example level 7 cleric, level 3 rogue, level 4 mage being able to cast spells as level 4 mage, heal as level 7 cleric and open locks as level 3 rogue).. In addition you have a list of maybe 300 feats to choose each odd level. Then you have noncombat skills like jump, swim, spot, listen that are related to your basic attributes (str, dex...) .. I could go on you have the picture. Best customization undoubtedly around.
CoX = City of Villains & heroes have very good character customization. Same as in DDo, there are players playing both games just for the great customization and have tons of alts.
GW = As much as I don't like GW, the game has superior customization to WoW. The simple fact you have 300 spells and you have to choose 8 to fight at any time gives tons of choices how to be different. Plus being able to have 2 classes of course.
Vanguard = 19 classes, 15 races. Eventho customization is not the VG strongest point, it still is better than WoW. Out of the tons of possibilities coming out from 19 races & 15 classes you choose around 16 points each level to distribute among your attributes. The attributes do practically the same as talents in WoW. Higher vitality = bonus to healing spells, higher wisdom = better critical spell chance etc. So that way you basically choose what you want. It's obviously more non-linear as in WoW, because you can focus on your spell critical chance even as a warrior..
Well WoW's customization is better than Vanguards as we established here
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/156620
So dont really need to cover old ground, but to summerize VG is waiting for an AA system to be implemented to bring it line with what other MMO's offer and hopefully it will be better than WoWs.
As for GW 8 out of 300 different skills is good, but this game is slightly different from the way other games are designed, only 8 skills at a time SUP with that .
Not played DDO so can't comment (but DDO is dead anyway) nor COX
Well WoW's customization is better than Vanguards as we established here
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/156620
So dont really need to cover old ground, but to summerize VG is waiting for an AA system to be implemented to bring it line with what other MMO's offer and hopefully it will be better than WoWs.
As for GW 8 out of 300 different skills is good, but this game is slightly different from the way other games are designed, only 8 skills at a time SUP with that .
Not played DDO so can't comment (but DDO is dead anyway) nor COX
That link proves nothing and it didn't establish anything. It's your opinion.
You should try DDo and CoX at least the trial to change your mind. You should realize that the customization in WoW IS linear as hell. All abilities are written and everything is controlled by the limit of talent points. In DDo you have nonlinear multiclassing as well in GW. Nonlinear is also in DDo the attribute distribute (as in VG) which gives any class any kind of bonus they want. They don't need to have special talents to get +10% life, they just put points into constitution. Simple as that...
And DDo is not dead, you ignorant. Just because it doesn't have milions of subs it doesn't mean it's dead. Not all games have 120$ mil for dev+marketing as WoW had so they don't rely on milions. DDo has loyal 40k base.
REALITY CHECK