You didn't play wow much did you? LOL The stuff I have seen..... from warroirs who can't tank, to healers that can't heal.... and yes they where speced that way..... stupid is as stupid does. Laff, what they need is an IQ test... seriously...
I agree really they need a new game that has the same skill based system or like it that preNGE SWG had.
I think Darkfall said they where going to do something like that..... so right now my hopes are on DF. And AoC to really "boost" the MMO market....
Also they need a different Space-based mmo... EvE imo unless you wanna spend a year to get into just one of the "small" dreads and thats just skills. Thats no encluding all the farming you need to get the money to afford all the skills.
Originally posted by slask777 Oh really? In the old Anarchy Online I can make a healer who tank, a dps who heal, a melee class who use ranged, a support class to act as a holy trinity class(tank/doc/dps). In other words, WoW's talent tree, while ok and indeed do support some different builds, is a complete joke compared to skill based mmo's. What skill based mmo's does is saying 'Here is a character. Build him whatever way you freaking want'. What WoW say is 'Here is a character. Build him our cookie-cutter way, oh..and take these points so you can feel special and unique while you arent'. It is impossible to screw a character up in WoW. No matter how stupid you are, your character will do ok in all situations. Not so with skill based mmo's. You can severly screw them up if you dont plan ahead. That is true character customization. They make you go and at times, and certainly are an aquired taste. Not everyone got the patience to reroll when they fuck shit up. ...heh! I love this guy
It almost sounds like you are trying to define true character customization as the ability for someone to screw their character up.
Anarchy online has a fine system, but there isn't anything wrong with WoW system either. It may not be as open ended, but it provide plenty of options. It is a decent blend between free form and class templates.
Honestly I liked Ulitma Online and Star Wars Galaxies the best.
Originally posted by Daffid011 It almost sounds like you are trying to define true character customization as the ability for someone to screw their character up. Anarchy online has a fine system, but there isn't anything wrong with WoW system either. It may not be as open ended, but it provide plenty of options. It is a decent blend between free form and class templates.
Honestly I liked Ulitma Online and Star Wars Galaxies the best.
Nope. True character customization is about freedom to build the character any damn way you please, not being caught in predefined classes and stuff like that. Oh, and ofcourse the ability to screw things up is part of the fun. It weeds out the stupid and I'm all for that
I think WoW's skill/class system is excellently done.
I think it provides a very inspired balance between individual customisation, and offering players a co-herant and game functional path.
Essential it has a few very different classes, all wioth their own roles to play, and then for each of those classes it offers you one of 3 functional configs. 2 for PvE and 1 for PvP.
Thius works well for me. Groups are instantly dynamic, characters that become boring can be recon fogured for other avenues of the game.
As much of a fanboy of this particular system as I am, I still have a hard time swallowing the WoW has the most customiseable character systems. It has a rock solid ands much underestimated one, that much I'll grant you.
But for me, when it comes to character customisation, COH and Eve online always jump first to mind.
Although WoW has perhaps the most balanced skill tree's and classes. Although it's system is genuinely less flawed than any other. I just don't feel customised when I play.
My tank is 90% configed identically to all the other tanks. He wears the same gear, and he looks identical in all but name above my head. He does the same job, and fights every encounter identically to every other tank.
In CoH, although my skill tree's are way more limited than WoWs, I look like MC Hammer and no one else does.
And in Eve although my skill tree's are preposterously unbalanced and cumbersome, I look like a potato head man and my choice of skill progressions is unending.
Perhaps I should include Matrix Online in here as an example of getting it totally wrong. The gear all looks the same so like WoW you have no particular individuality to your look. And the skill system is too customiseable.
Despite offering a class system, with a well plumbed configuration progression, They fluffed it by allowing free respecs.
In fact you can instantly respec for free at anytime. The end result is, everyone chooses the same skills. Or they could if the wanted to. There is no room for individuality. You cannot master your own playstyle. You aren't forced to choose a role. Which resluts in Matrix's gameplay ending up as a whole load of solo players fighting as standalone individuals even though they are grouped.
If anyone believes that WoW is the only MMORPG with true character customization or even good character customization they need to point me in the direction of what WoW they are playing, because it certainly is not the one I've played. Either that or whoever holds that opinion needs to experience other games.
"God, please help us sinful children of Ivalice.."
The OP has a right to his opinion.And from his experience,he may be correct.NOTE,key phrase ,"From his experience".His opinion is derived from,it seems to me,a very,very limited experience in mmorpgs.
WoW made it very easy for just about anyone to jump right into the game and play without having to worry about gimpimg their char.It was made for the masses,simple and easy,with limited choices,and therefor limited chances of ,for lack of a better term, ruining your char.Thus improving the chance that the person would keep playing the game.
Most of the games that had really good char customization are , for one reason or another, are no longer with us or limping along with low population.
Examples..UO,AC,pre-cu SWG and several others,Compared to those,WoW is severely lacking in the custom char department.
A highly customizable char is a double edged sword.You can make it like you want.Could be really great,or,it could really suck,but either way,the choices were yours. For the people that say high customization leads to the tempeplate chars,yes it does,but any time there are more than 3 choices it will.
If you want a game you can jump into and not worry about having to build a char too much,Wow is your game.
If you want to create a char the way you really want,be it good or bad,It isn't
The thing I miss the most from DAoC and that other devs never adapt for some obscur reason is how you don't have to rebuff constantly anyone. You go to whatever the name of the screen, select who to buffs according to limits, and your done.
Buffs never fade, never goes away, you can't buff anyone outside of your group. Simple and efficient. Simple is good (not dumb).
I will never understand why other MMOs doesn't adopt this buffing system. It is vastly superior, you adapt the buffs only when the group members change, and that is it.
I don't like you.
what about buffing other people? passerby, enimies... anything! ...I understand you like ease... but freedom is where it is at!! If I want to heal the mob Im fighting...I should be able to! that kind of freedom in a game is what creates fun moments... It is what gives you more to do than buff only your party members...It is what gives you more to do than follow the cutt out path....
WoW's talent progression is good...however I've also played EQ2 and the AA system and advancement in skills is a little more in depth and grants further choices...however you'll still always have those cookie-cutter builds that seem to overpower TRUE character uniqueness
EQ2's talent system is actually inferior to WoW's in that EQ2's does not allow your class to alter it's general platform of use; WoW, on the other hand, does indeed do that.
As the OP said there's a fairly substantial difference between Prot warriors, Fury warriors, and Arms warriors.
In EQ2 all it does really is increase your overall productiveness and efficiency of what your class's basic premise is; which in reality is not customization at all, but rather upgrading.
beyond that if you arent playing the most "uber" line in WoW, youll get a lot of criticism, as well as a lot of people who will ask what your talent tree is, then if its not the 'uber' one, you'll get the no thanks.
Whats the point of giving people options if you screw them into a hole with ones that are clearly better than the rest? If you ask me that makes the whole concept of the talent tree pointless. You either play the uber one, or get the shaft, go figure.
But the best thing of WoW is talents are always rechanged if you cant find groups with your current spec, unlike most mmorpgs if your not a cerrtain CLASS all together you get the nothanks. In WoW for example if no one wants me as a fury warrior, i can just go to a warrior trainer and for 1 - 50 gold i can change my talent line all together and become a prot warrior and become extremely useful to any group.Just like that.
And "Just like that" you have destroyed the very point your trying to make. Having all these talent trees does not help you, the game is so badly designed that you have to ditch all the individuality the allow for, and respec to a common as muck "Accepted" talent set so that you can become useful to a group.
So no WoW is crap with its talent tree as it forces you to ignore all the possibilities and respec into one of the 'accepted' 'standard' pidgeon hole setups so that your useful.
If i was making millions monthly i'd make dam sure my game was perfect, which WoW continues to provide. Dispute i got bored after 2 months and threw 70$ down the drain.
No but really in the beta it wasen't as defined as it is now from what i understand.
Comments
You didn't play wow much did you? LOL The stuff I have seen.....
from warroirs who can't tank, to healers that can't heal.... and yes they where speced that way..... stupid is as stupid does. Laff, what they need is an IQ test... seriously... 
I agree really they need a new game that has the same skill based system or like it that preNGE SWG had.
I think Darkfall said they where going to do something like that..... so right now my hopes are on DF. And AoC to really "boost" the MMO market....
Also they need a different Space-based mmo... EvE imo unless you wanna spend a year to get into just one of the "small" dreads and thats just skills. Thats no encluding all the farming you need to get the money to afford all the skills.
It almost sounds like you are trying to define true character customization as the ability for someone to screw their character up.
Anarchy online has a fine system, but there isn't anything wrong with WoW system either. It may not be as open ended, but it provide plenty of options. It is a decent blend between free form and class templates.
Honestly I liked Ulitma Online and Star Wars Galaxies the best.
DAoC
Nough' said.
There are two kinds of people in this world. People who pick their nose.. and liars.
Nope. True character customization is about freedom to build the character any damn way you please, not being caught in predefined classes and stuff like that. Oh, and ofcourse the ability to screw things up is part of the fun. It weeds out the stupid and I'm all for that
---
Grammar nazi's. This one is for you.
I think WoW's skill/class system is excellently done.
I think it provides a very inspired balance between individual customisation, and offering players a co-herant and game functional path.
Essential it has a few very different classes, all wioth their own roles to play, and then for each of those classes it offers you one of 3 functional configs. 2 for PvE and 1 for PvP.
Thius works well for me. Groups are instantly dynamic, characters that become boring can be recon fogured for other avenues of the game.
As much of a fanboy of this particular system as I am, I still have a hard time swallowing the WoW has the most customiseable character systems. It has a rock solid ands much underestimated one, that much I'll grant you.
But for me, when it comes to character customisation, COH and Eve online always jump first to mind.
Although WoW has perhaps the most balanced skill tree's and classes. Although it's system is genuinely less flawed than any other. I just don't feel customised when I play.
My tank is 90% configed identically to all the other tanks. He wears the same gear, and he looks identical in all but name above my head. He does the same job, and fights every encounter identically to every other tank.
In CoH, although my skill tree's are way more limited than WoWs, I look like MC Hammer and no one else does.
And in Eve although my skill tree's are preposterously unbalanced and cumbersome, I look like a potato head man and my choice of skill progressions is unending.
Perhaps I should include Matrix Online in here as an example of getting it totally wrong. The gear all looks the same so like WoW you have no particular individuality to your look. And the skill system is too customiseable.
Despite offering a class system, with a well plumbed configuration progression, They fluffed it by allowing free respecs.
In fact you can instantly respec for free at anytime. The end result is, everyone chooses the same skills. Or they could if the wanted to. There is no room for individuality. You cannot master your own playstyle. You aren't forced to choose a role. Which resluts in Matrix's gameplay ending up as a whole load of solo players fighting as standalone individuals even though they are grouped.
There is such a thing as too customiseable.
If anyone believes that WoW is the only MMORPG with true character customization or even good character customization they need to point me in the direction of what WoW they are playing, because it certainly is not the one I've played. Either that or whoever holds that opinion needs to experience other games.
"God, please help us sinful children of Ivalice.."
The OP has a right to his opinion.And from his experience,he may be correct.NOTE,key phrase ,"From his experience".His opinion is derived from,it seems to me,a very,very limited experience in mmorpgs.
WoW made it very easy for just about anyone to jump right into the game and play without having to worry about gimpimg their char.It was made for the masses,simple and easy,with limited choices,and therefor limited chances of ,for lack of a better term, ruining your char.Thus improving the chance that the person would keep playing the game.
Most of the games that had really good char customization are , for one reason or another, are no longer with us or limping along with low population.
Examples..UO,AC,pre-cu SWG and several others,Compared to those,WoW is severely lacking in the custom char department.
A highly customizable char is a double edged sword.You can make it like you want.Could be really great,or,it could really suck,but either way,the choices were yours. For the people that say high customization leads to the tempeplate chars,yes it does,but any time there are more than 3 choices it will.
If you want a game you can jump into and not worry about having to build a char too much,Wow is your game.
If you want to create a char the way you really want,be it good or bad,It isn't
The thing I miss the most from DAoC and that other devs never adapt for some obscur reason is how you don't have to rebuff constantly anyone. You go to whatever the name of the screen, select who to buffs according to limits, and your done.
Buffs never fade, never goes away, you can't buff anyone outside of your group. Simple and efficient. Simple is good (not dumb).
I will never understand why other MMOs doesn't adopt this buffing system. It is vastly superior, you adapt the buffs only when the group members change, and that is it.
I don't like you.
what about buffing other people? passerby, enimies... anything! ...I understand you like ease... but freedom is where it is at!! If I want to heal the mob Im fighting...I should be able to! that kind of freedom in a game is what creates fun moments... It is what gives you more to do than buff only your party members...It is what gives you more to do than follow the cutt out path....
As the OP said there's a fairly substantial difference between Prot warriors, Fury warriors, and Arms warriors.
In EQ2 all it does really is increase your overall productiveness and efficiency of what your class's basic premise is; which in reality is not customization at all, but rather upgrading.
beyond that if you arent playing the most "uber" line in WoW, youll get a lot of criticism, as well as a lot of people who will ask what your talent tree is, then if its not the 'uber' one, you'll get the no thanks.Whats the point of giving people options if you screw them into a hole with ones that are clearly better than the rest? If you ask me that makes the whole concept of the talent tree pointless. You either play the uber one, or get the shaft, go figure.
But the best thing of WoW is talents are always rechanged if you cant find groups with your current spec, unlike most mmorpgs if your not a cerrtain CLASS all together you get the nothanks. In WoW for example if no one wants me as a fury warrior, i can just go to a warrior trainer and for 1 - 50 gold i can change my talent line all together and become a prot warrior and become extremely useful to any group.Just like that.
And "Just like that" you have destroyed the very point your trying to make. Having all these talent trees does not help you, the game is so badly designed that you have to ditch all the individuality the allow for, and respec to a common as muck "Accepted" talent set so that you can become useful to a group.
So no WoW is crap with its talent tree as it forces you to ignore all the possibilities and respec into one of the 'accepted' 'standard' pidgeon hole setups so that your useful.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
If i was making millions monthly i'd make dam sure my game was perfect, which WoW continues to provide. Dispute i got bored after 2 months and threw 70$ down the drain.
No but really in the beta it wasen't as defined as it is now from what i understand.