If quests are 'dull' then what are you expecting?

Kremlik

As the title states this topic is mainly to disccuss the fact I've noted very often now that players use the reason 'quests are the same fech/kill as X game' when they play a new MMO not to continue playing the game.. Simple question to this is what were players expecting?

For pratical and logical reasons (and money) I cannot see an alturnative way for doing things unless the system itself was changed as the quests cannot, I mean we can't really go kill raid bosses at level one, thats just silly as stats wise there is no way a character can hold up on their own and being limited on skills and lack of knowlege about the system, it's logical to have these simple quest types.

Mid to end game yes I'll expect it to fold into either pvp or pve (or both) grouping as thats the next logical step and then to massive combat bits at 'endgame' to fit that first M in MMO but what are players expecting this is the main question? to walk into a game with a full set of skills and have massive raid type battles from day one? Like I said it's not practical..

So I put the two questions to you:  why are players expecting more then just fech/kill quests when they first play, and what do they expect which isn't practically sound with their questing?

ElgarL

The best quest I've ever found were in Asheron's Call. Before they started copying all the rest and adding kill XX monsters.

Asheron's call quests were soaked in lore. You usually had to travel to some far off dungeon, battle your way to the end overcoming numerous jumping and logic puzzles to reach the boss monster. Kill him and retrieve your reward. These quests were for ALL levels, from 1 to 126 (later cap upped to 275).

k9wazere

Great question.

 

Here's why "kill X monster" quests are dull: you know where the monster is, you only have to kill them 1 at a time, and killing one isn't hard. Add to that, that when you've killed your X monsters, the quest is done. You can't get much more boring than that.

 

In EQ, a typical quest went like this: Find an NPC. Talk to him for a bit. Supply him with a muffin or two. Listen to his predicament (you had to listen, there was no dialog box where you could just click "next" until it said "quest journal updated"...), and work out where he was sending you (you didn't always know where you had to go).

 

Then you'd have to find an evil gnoll or something. But he wasn't out in the open, and he wasn't always around at all. Sometimes he'd be in zone A, sometimes in zone B. Sometimes you'd have to "spawn" him by using your knowledge of his placeholders to trigger him. Since he'd normally be at a dangerous point in the zone, you'd have to clear your way to him, hold the area (dealing with respawns), and make sure you could take him with any additional mobs who might come wandering past.

 

After you'd killed him and collected his head/ sword/ key/ whatever, you'd return to the original NPC, only to learn that you'd just scratched the surface of a much larger quest. You'd be sent to some other dungeons, with tougher monsters, to find rarer and rarer mobs and artifacts.

 

Those were real quests. But EQ was not a game where quests could be used to level up. Quests kept you entertained - gave you the bigger picture - while you leveled up. Today, so-called-quests are different. They are there to provide an alternative to mob grinding. In fact, it is called quest grinding.

 

So there you have it. Either you can have large, epic EQ style quests which do not help you level up, or you can have today's grinding quests which exist purely to give you an XP boost.

 

I know which I'd prefer.

Vincenz

It's kind if a double edged sword.  My personal game, DDO, went the route of entirely hand crafted quests.  Every quest has it's own story, personal dungeon and map, set of monsters/enemies, traps, chests, sometimes a "boss", sometimes unique treasure, etc.

Now, personally?  I love this about DDO.  That said, obviously making these kinds of quests takes a lot longer than programming an NPC to say "go over to those woods and kill 100 squirrels"...which means a lot less of them overall. 

And, if you haven't heard, DDO continuously gets the rap of having too little content as a result.  Now, I gotta give it to the DDO devs, having doubled what they started with in under 2 years, but gamers who play 30+ hours a week are never going to keep pace with this style of content even if you had 100 devs working round the clock.

k9wazere

But on the other hand, are people really dumb enough to view "kill X gorillas" tasks as added content? It really adds nothing. The gorillas were already there, and you were probably already going to kill them to level up anyhow.

 

It's not what I'd call content at all. The mobs themselves, and the zones they inhabit, those are the content. NPCs that direct me around like some sort of tour guide? Nah, I'll pass.

Kremlik

Originally posted by Vincenz


It's kind if a double edged sword.  My personal game, DDO, went the route of entirely hand crafted quests.  Every quest has it's own story, personal dungeon and map, set of monsters/enemies, traps, chests, sometimes a "boss", sometimes unique treasure, etc.
Now, personally?  I love this about DDO.  That said, obviously making these kinds of quests takes a lot longer than programming an NPC to say "go over to those woods and kill 100 squirrels"...which means a lot less of them overall. 
And, if you haven't heard, DDO continuously gets the rap of having too little content as a result.  Now, I gotta give it to the DDO devs, having doubled what they started with in under 2 years, but gamers who play 30+ hours a week are never going to keep pace with this style of content even if you had 100 devs working round the clock.

Ahh.. well this is were it really gets confusing trying to wrap you head around a players logic will 'dull questing': I wholeheartedly agree DDO has a fantastic line of quests ranging between solo and group play and diffitulty settings.. Problem is that players disreguarded it has it is 'heavily instanced', but for quests that constandly tell a 'story' in that way has the limtation of requiring to be instanced, thats that end of the sword.

Players expect that level of quality on the open world but then it's limted via hardware, we've hsd open world events like that however they normally end with server crashes or wrose like a guild hijacking the event, we can't have it both ways... yet

Briansho

"kill X gorillas" = additional lore

Vhaln

I think the idea of quests which are modelled after single-player games are all wrong.  It's totally immersion breaking to save the same princess that everyone else has been saving all day long.  I think that's part of why people don't care about the lore, because it's ridiculous and implausible, given the MMO world it takes place in.

I'd prefer quests which are more like jobs.  Quests which make sense in the world, and make sense that they'd need to be done a lot, by lots of players.  Space sim MMOs have this a little (EVE and E&B both) for some reason, but other genres don't.

If you have to kill 20 goblins, it should be because hundreds or even thousands of goblins are laying siege to a town, and you're part of the militia trying to stop them (and eventually does so, but some day they do come back to try again).  If you need to fetch and deliver something, it should be because you're a merchant, taking cargo along a line of supply and demand.  Maybe fending off bandits along the way, or whatever.

I'd also like to see quests/work randomized and dynamic (screw handcrafted lore in annoying little text boxes) so that it's unpredictable, and you aren't doing the exact same thing as everyone else.  So if a princess does need saving, it's because a random NPC approaches your character, and your character alone, making the quest a special opportunity. 

Unless it's a mass quest that requires lots of players to accomplsh.  A gameworld where food needs to be delivered because a roll of the dice creates a famine in an area, or another roll of the dice puts a town under attack, ruining certain advantages the town provides, until players deal with it.  Things like that.

Hmm, I could go on and on, but that's enough for now.  Already went on much longer than I'd intended, and I know no one really cares...

Vincenz

 

Originally posted by Vhaln


I think the idea of quests which are modelled after single-player games are all wrong.  It's totally immersion breaking to save the same princess that everyone else has been saving all day long.  I think that's part of why people don't care about the lore, because it's ridiculous and implausible, given the MMO world it takes place in.
I'd prefer quests which are more like jobs.  Quests which make sense in the world, and make sense that they'd need to be done a lot, by lots of players.  Space sim MMOs have this a little (EVE and E&B both) for some reason, but other genres don't.
If you have to kill 20 goblins, it should be because hundreds or even thousands of goblins are laying siege to a town, and you're part of the militia trying to stop them (and eventually does so, but some day they do come back to try again).  If you need to fetch and deliver something, it should be because you're a merchant, taking cargo along a line of supply and demand.  Maybe fending off bandits along the way, or whatever.
I'd also like to see quests/work randomized and dynamic (screw handcrafted lore in annoying little text boxes) so that it's unpredictable, and you aren't doing the exact same thing as everyone else.  So if a princess does need saving, it's because a random NPC approaches your character, and your character alone, making the quest a special opportunity. 
Unless it's a mass quest that requires lots of players to accomplsh.  A gameworld where food needs to be delivered because a roll of the dice creates a famine in an area, or another roll of the dice puts a town under attack, ruining certain advantages the town provides, until players deal with it.  Things like that.
Hmm, I could go on and on, but that's enough for now.  Already went on much longer than I'd intended, and I know no one really cares...

 

I think the "continuous game world" like you're explaining is the best defense I've seen for the "kill 20 goblins" style quests actually.  I don't particularly want to play a game with those quests still, but it does still make sense.  Of course, doing it that way pretty much eliminates all raids, unique bosses, etc. which I'm not sure would cater to a lot of MMO'ers, but again...at least I get your point completely.

 

p.s. and even agree with it, in principle.

HotAznBoy90x

Eh? You guys want good questing? There IS something called runescape. Best quests EVER.Seriously, go play it.

paulscott

the sad part is that runescape does have better quests than quite a few MMO's.

guildwars has some interesting story quests, and normal quests.

Vincenz

Originally posted by HotAznBoy90x


Eh? You guys want good questing? There IS something called runescape. Best quests EVER.Seriously, go play it.

I actually agree, Runescape has a pretty strong questing development.  Unfortunately, I didn't like the game very much, but 100% agree that it's quests are well built and interesting.

Taram

 

Originally posted by Kremlik


As the title states this topic is mainly to disccuss the fact I've noted very often now that players use the reason 'quests are the same fech/kill as X game' when they play a new MMO not to continue playing the game.. Simple question to this is what were players expecting?
For pratical and logical reasons (and money) I cannot see an alturnative way for doing things unless the system itself was changed as the quests cannot, I mean we can't really go kill raid bosses at level one, thats just silly as stats wise there is no way a character can hold up on their own and being limited on skills and lack of knowlege about the system, it's logical to have these simple quest types.
Mid to end game yes I'll expect it to fold into either pvp or pve (or both) grouping as thats the next logical step and then to massive combat bits at 'endgame' to fit that first M in MMO but what are players expecting this is the main question? to walk into a game with a full set of skills and have massive raid type battles from day one? Like I said it's not practical..
So I put the two questions to you:  why are players expecting more then just fech/kill quests when they first play, and what do they expect which isn't practically sound with their questing?

 

DDO has the absolute BEST quest system of any MMORPG I have ever played.  TBQFH that's the level of quality I expect from quests anymore in a fantasy style MMORPG.  "go kill x orcs and bring me their teeth" just doesn't cut it anymore with me.

TBH if the rest of DDO lived up to the quality of the quests the game would have toppled WoW.

Vincenz

Originally posted by Taram


 
Originally posted by Kremlik


As the title states this topic is mainly to disccuss the fact I've noted very often now that players use the reason 'quests are the same fech/kill as X game' when they play a new MMO not to continue playing the game.. Simple question to this is what were players expecting?
For pratical and logical reasons (and money) I cannot see an alturnative way for doing things unless the system itself was changed as the quests cannot, I mean we can't really go kill raid bosses at level one, thats just silly as stats wise there is no way a character can hold up on their own and being limited on skills and lack of knowlege about the system, it's logical to have these simple quest types.
Mid to end game yes I'll expect it to fold into either pvp or pve (or both) grouping as thats the next logical step and then to massive combat bits at 'endgame' to fit that first M in MMO but what are players expecting this is the main question? to walk into a game with a full set of skills and have massive raid type battles from day one? Like I said it's not practical..
So I put the two questions to you:  why are players expecting more then just fech/kill quests when they first play, and what do they expect which isn't practically sound with their questing?

 

DDO has the absolute BEST quest system of any MMORPG I have ever played.  TBQFH that's the level of quality I expect from quests anymore in a fantasy style MMORPG.  "go kill x orcs and bring me their teeth" just doesn't cut it anymore with me.

TBH if the rest of DDO lived up to the quality of the quests the game would have toppled WoW.

You know T, on certain levels (as a clear DDO fan) I do agree.  If somehow they'd been able to include some uninstanced stuff, some robust PVP, some of the things that people seem to crave...combined that with the quest quality and combat...trust me, I'd be a happier guy tooting the horn of a game that would be, no doubt, universally fairly accepted.  It's part of why I trumpet the changes and additions they have added, because I truly believe in the game and what it offers that's different. 

My big hope, my biggest hope when it comes to gaming, is that eventually they offer a paid expansion pack that brings in some of the things that people want in an MMO experience on a more mass market level...without changing a bit of what makes DDO great (to me).

Vyeth

I think the quest system IS busted these days.. As a matter of fact I think they should do away with "quests" all together and do something called events... Like live events that can change daily or weekly where  besides the normal "hunting" (xp grinding), players can partake in a server wide event that requires them to say amass like certain things to help in dong something bigger..

Say like the event can be to defend your home city against a rading army of orcs. You dont "neccesariyl" HAVE to defend the city but if you fail to do so, your starting city would be lost and you will be forced to spawn or bind at a nearby camp or such. But part of the event would be for everyone to fill a role of some sort, crafters will have the choice to arm the defenders or help build defenses for the city. Defenders will need to form groups and determine roles and leadership. And the event will run on a timer and when it expires the city will be attacked and blah blah..

Notice this does not have to always be a "war" styled event.. It could be disater relief, hostage situation, or even an uprising or rebellion.. But the key to these is that they must be actually PART of the game and happen quite often and random. And they must effect the game world...

Quests are really just too static and we always know what to expect from them..

Another idea could be something i'd call "Open quests"... This is where the NPC would tell you a story of lore about say, like an item of great power... He'd tell you all the names of the people involved in creation of the item, and tell you the lore about where the item was last seen.. And guess what? Thats it!

Then you must go around looking for clues and talking to villagers to aid in finding such items.. They can make it so some people or monsters do not speak willingly about the item and the player has to decide whether to try and beat it out of them or bring something that they like to persuade them (which would have to be found out by the player through clues also which would be another quest in its own).. Of course the item will randomly place itself around the area where its rumoured to be found, so you couldnt  just read a guide and run to it, and certain items may be needed to open locks, bleh bleh bleh...

There are many different ways to break the static kill x quests.. I mean think about it, why should everyone have to attain something the same exact way? IS my quest always the same as your quest?

k9wazere

Originally posted by Vhaln



I'd also like to see quests/work randomized and dynamic (screw handcrafted lore in annoying little text boxes) so that it's unpredictable, and you aren't doing the exact same thing as everyone else.  So if a princess does need saving, it's because a random NPC approaches your character, and your character alone, making the quest a special opportunity.

Computers don't make very good GMs. The only thing they can change is numbers. So yes, you could have the computer vary mob HP, mob damage, mob model, mob colour... those basic things.

 

What you have described above is not that. If you want each player to experience unique opportunities, you have to have designers working all day on one-shot only content. The computer cannot make content like that on the fly. I promise you.

 

So on one hand you say "screw hand crafted content" and on the other "give players unique experiences". Unfortunately, you can't have both.

paulscott

warhammer online seems to be doing stuff along the lines of go kill that scout master,  then when someone is sucessful fewer scouts are sent into an area, and you activate the quest of recruit me a scout master(edit: for the other side).

 

they didn't say it word for word like that but a few months ago they were trying to imply that this is one of the quest types they will have.

Wizardry

All the posts in here are pretty much correct or have the right train of thought.The problem however is that it's not really possible.I have seen variations in quests playing EQ2 and vanguard ,however only to a degree and could never satisfy thousands of players.

The best you can hope for is say maybe 10 different scenarios ,so that not every single person is doing the same one,or waiting for the exact same boss.Problem with most quests is that 99% of the players look online for the simple walkthrough and the other 1% just shout in chat asking.This really ruins any hard work a dev puts into quests.This would lead us to expect total randomness in every aspect of even the "10"scenario .If there is anything other than total randomness within the "10" as an example then it's all posted on forums or shouted in chat.I only used 10 as an example because trying to create infinite scenarios is impossible,computers still have to be told what to do,they can't think.

several random scenarios to a quest also makes it fun if say you have to go back and help a guild member complete one.This way it could be a whole new experience for you,so not so boring repeating the exact same quest/mission.

Jupsto

Id rather not have any kill X of Y quests. rather just kill what you want when you want for exp, making it a quest makes it more anooiyng, less fun -yes you get more exp - but why not just make the monsters give more exp in the first place.

as for quests why not make people travel to a place, or do a taks which will make them face monsters instead of just asking them to kill monsters which is stupid.

the more quests are like single player rpg's such as biowares the better. its too hard to get quests that standard in a mmo currently but we're getting closer. aoc will have some branchin quests and voiceovers. but its tons easier to make quests for single player games. but adding some more complex quests, puzzle solving questings, ones which make you think - would be cool and possible.

k9wazere

Originally posted by Vyeth



Another idea could be something i'd call "Open quests"... This is where the NPC would tell you a story of lore about say, like an item of great power... He'd tell you all the names of the people involved in creation of the item, and tell you the lore about where the item was last seen.. And guess what? Thats it!
Then you must go around looking for clues and talking to villagers to aid in finding such items.. They can make it so some people or monsters do not speak willingly about the item

Something like that is how a lot of early EQ quests were like. I loved it, but a lot of people complained that they had to "run around hailing all the NPCs", and that it was taking time out of their monster grinding time.

 

Unfortunately, as dull as "kill X monster" quests are, they are probably what a lot of people want. Easy, disposable, predictable.

Unknown

Originally posted by paulscott


the sad part is that runescape does have better quests than quite a few MMO's.
guildwars has some interesting story quests, and normal quests.

GW has the ability to change based on the quest due to private instances.

 

The funny thing is people forget that get a bunch of quests, have 3 customs spawns attack them all at once and then wonder why the instance is so hard.

HelloKirby

Very few games have good quests.     It is easier to make +1500 boring quests than it is to make +100 non-boring quests. Most companies just make fedex quests because it is cheaper, faster, and because WoW did that.  Other companies see that wow is a success so they copy everything of that game.    Runescape, Guild Wars, and few others actually have fun quests. 

devils_hymn

Ya know if there was something exactly like runescape free I would be willing to play it. I just didnt like how once im lvl 50 ive beaten all the free quests and i dont want to waste $5 a month that i can spend on my girlfriend by taking her to the movies

Torak

If quest are 'dull' then what are you expecting?

All is lost if players are asking questions like this...........the genre is through Bring on the next WoW clone men, they want more!

 

Here is what I am expecting

Something - entertaining

Something written on the level of someone over the age of 12

Something that involves some....dare I say......thinking

Something...interesting

Something dynamic that involves choices

Something thats fun rather then playing "go fetch for the NPC"

 

Yeah, I'm an idiot to have expectations like that, what the hell am I thinking? I'm going to hazard to guess the OP never played any sort of RPG or any of the older MMORPG's like AC.

Levels are just a mechanic and are irrelevant. You could just as easily eliminate them. Are you still going to be satisfied with killing 10 rats if they took the numbers away?

MMOs suck as RPG's. The only redeeming quality they have is the communities which games like WoW do their best to neuter.

 

 

Lobotomist

Clearly Turbine is the king of quests.

Asherons Call , DDO , LOTRO

I think MMOs can hardly pull something better than that...

 

Well until they put in branching dialogues.... AOC will do that (hopefully)

And than towards Bioware MMO that will lift Questing to a next level.

rikilii

Here's a really boring quest:

Take this ring, travel to the other side of the map, and drop it in some lava.

Or how about this incredibly boring group quest:

Find a group, then fly your ships around the other side of that moon, and blow up the big space station.

But this one takes the cake.

Look all over the map for a cup that some dude drank wine out of once a long time ago