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MMORPGs going downhill
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MMORPGs going downhill? Nah.....
The average player now demands more immersion, and unfortunately feel they should become MMO net-critics as a result of not finding what they want in an MMO. Thus providing your negativity towards today's games. MMO companies did fantastic last year and will continue to improve in future years.
But I enjoyed my time in WOW, including raiding, at least the first time we cleared an instance. (was really just the re-runs and endless hours that bothered me)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I do love how people always say such bad things about WoW but then offer no better solution.
They always use the "skill system instead of class/level" but fail to mention or even realize many of the shortcomings of such a skill system that we've seen in games past.
They always use the "no grinding / raiding instanced crap" but never offer an alternative.
In fact the only really intellectually valid argument against WoW is that the PvP only really serves as a means to acquire better gear. Yes, there are world PvP objectives but the incentives to their completion do not match the incentives in game to "grind" for better PvP gear...
There are two games on the horizon, WAR and AoC, that promise to deliver PvP with meaning, direction, and purpose, and people say MMORPG development is going downhill?
The only reasonable argument against WoW has been fully acknowledged by Funcom/Mythic and they have given us solutions.
I'd say developers are learning from the mistakes of the past and attempted to improve on/correct these issues with their products. That sounds like very forward thinking to me.
Video gaming industry is hardly going downhill, in fact it's grown from a cottage industry that used to be ran from someone's garage to a 18 billion dollars a year business.
Source: http://www.efluxmedia.com/news_Gaming_Industry_Set_to_Surpass_18_Billion_in_2007_07995.html
You should really read an article before you quote it...
"This was mainly due to the revenues reaped from console hardware sales, which more than tripled in July 2007 compared to July 2006. Combined sales of portable and fixed consoles reached C$35.8 million ($33.6 million), up 11% from the same period last year.
Having more consoles means that developers and publishers are more likely to work on titles specifically addressed to them (because piracy is far more reduced), and Canadian sales charts stand proof of that: overall software sales were up more than 30 percent, to C$38.2 million ($35.9 million), driven by strong sales of games for fixed consoles (a 43% increase in July 2007 compared to July 2006)."
Sure, consoles are up...games for consoles are up...hell, soon console MMOs will be up. I don't want to play on a console.
This thread's original intent was on pointing out the weaknesses in WoW and not MMORPGs in general. The OP fails to answer questions and gives largely unsupported claims presenting no hard facts and/or giving credit to articles previously published if he is indeed using source information from elsewhere.
The OP also fails at reading, or comprehending, many posts that try to talk about other MMOs and not just WoW.
With that being said I, for one, request that the subject of this thread be, "The inconsistencies of WoW" (or something along those lines) because this topic is continuing on a one sided whine (with no cheese) about WoW and not MMOs in general. I feel the subject line should represent the topic matter the OP included in his first post.
~Webby "This MMO needs more dead bird."
I agree with the OP. I'm not going to split hairs about profits, and other nonsense. Most MMORPGs suck these days, regardless of how profitable they are. In fact, I think it's the 'profitable model' of MMOs that suck most and which are being duplicated all over the place.
- Phos
Tell me exactly where LOTR is better than UO of old made 11 years ago.
LOTR vs UO
About the only thing LOTR would claim fame over UO is updated new graphics, ability for a 6-year old to play.
Seems like a pretty serious tradeoff to me.
Edit: You can replace LOTR with any MMO made in the last 5yrs actually.
If you think you can defend their PvP system, respond to that specific post, #49, and tell me why WoW's pvp system isn't a steaming pile of shit.
Go ahead, back up the fact that there is no real PvP in WoW.
Tell me exactly where LOTR is better than UO of old made 11 years ago.
LOTR vs UO
About the only thing LOTR would claim fame over UO is updated new graphics, ability for a 6-year old to play.
Seems like a pretty serious tradeoff to me.
LOTRO is a much better game for casuals whereas UO is a much better game for hardcores. That is the underlying difference and it's also why LOTRO has much higher subs than UO ever had. There's nothing wrong with hardcore, but it's a fact that it is niche now and will never garner the numbers that a casual game can draw in. Sadly, they are caving in to the hardcores even in this game and are starting to put more focus on raiding and giving that play style the best rewards.
The biggest problem I have with Blizzard is that they backed down on the raiding issue. They never intended for raids to replace group and solo play. Raiding would be a miniscule part of the end game and the rewards would be superficial, such as special particle effects, not the current ubers items they have now. This is due to the tremendous outcry from the hardcores. Despite the fact that hardcores have plenty of games that cater to them, they just can't seem to stand it if any game comes out that doesn't make them top dogs on the food chain. I have a great disrespect for Blizzard for caving in on that issue and I have a tremendous respect for EA Mythic for deciding to go raidless. They're the only company so far to really get it. Even AoC, after many years of development without raids, suddenly decided to go raid centric a year ago after all of the negative feedback from hardcores.
I guess I will console myself with having just one truly casual game on the market that doesn't cave in to the very vocal niche that is the hardcore geek.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Hell yeah this man tells the true stuff!
there are tons of mmos and there will be for a long time. however i think the OP meant quality not quantity.
mmo gaming went from something cool and "indie" to corporate cash cow. once bean counters saw and lusted for wow level subs we the gamers became nothing more than 14.99. in the old days it was a little more
like a group of devs with a crazy idea for a persistent online game...about making customers happy and seing their creation enjoyed by many...and of course making money.
now generating cash is the only concern. the reason a boring game like wow took off is because it is simple enough for bored housewives and children in other words people who never bothered to play mmos before because they were to "deep".
one day however the bean counters will realize one simple fact: people who want a wow experience WILL PLAY WOW.
arguing with a corporate fanboi is like teaching special education.
even if you teach him something...at the end of the day he's still retarded.
EACH PERSON is entitled to his view. There are many that played WoW and 9M still paying to play it. That is some substantial number, and also the lion's share of MMORPG. Yes there are many billion christians, more than the number of WoW subscribers. So what? There are also many more billion ants. So what? Irrelevant statistics. Why compare the population of christians to population of WoW players, why not compare population of WoW players to that of VG? You are manipulating numbers and comparing totally irrelavant numbers. Bad use of statistics, very bad indeed.
Apart from using wrong comparison, you keep creating new definitions. You have not yet defined what a real PVP is apart from vague statements like PVP with costs. Who says that everyone wants PVP with costs, and what costs? PVP that will cut off your arm when you lose? PVP that will permanently kill your avatar when you lose? PVP that would strip you of all gear when you lose? PVP that will force you to go back to the grave and wait for 20 sec before rejoining? Every game has a different way of implementing PVP penalties. You have your idea about what you like, that does not make it REAL, nor does that make the others FAKE. You are trying to pass on your idea as the truth, as if your view and your view alone matters. Come on, who are you? I do not know you, and need not follow your view. Keep your view and respect our views that are different. We should share and discuss but not impose.
Sweeping statements, wrong comparison, bad use of statistics, random new terms, intolerance of different views, ... and a totally wrong way of discussing the topic. Are MMORPGs going down hill? From what you have said we know nothing, we only see a pile of hatred thrown against WoW, and WoW =/= the entire MMORPG. Nor is your hatred a reason to conclude that something must be going downhill. Your line of argument surely is going downhill.
Aye that is a sad way of describing the MMO market now. More and more games, less and less choice. Most games I would dismiss right away. I am so pessimistic that I stopped playing nor participating in closed betas. Enough disappointment after VG and a whole new wave of promise lands. Will WAR do it? Will AoC do it? Will XYZ do it? Who knows.
Is WoW the curse of MMORPG and the source of the plight today? We can blame the developers for trying to cash into the majority, which now appears to be the casual players. We can blame the casual players for invading what once was core players playground, but who are we to exclude others from joining the MMORPG scene?
Gone were the days where players play 24/7. Instead we would log on, start crafting, go afk to cook or alt-tab to read mail and check the weather. Where is the dragon, I do not care, will I die when I was afk or alt-tabbed out, and babysitting, I do not care, b/c I do not lose all my items or lose 2 levels with 1 dying. Do I go PVP, yes once in a while when I feel like, so no forced total PVP server. Do I go afk during PVP sure, when the baby split his milk, I go afk and if I got PKed, I expect some nuisance but not the end of the world as penalty. That is what an MMO to me is, now. And yes I am no longer the 24/7 dedicate I once was when I was 15 years younger. Now I have far more responsibility on earth, than just nursing my avatar every moment I was awake.
People have changed. Tastes have evolved. New faces have joined the gaming market. Old men have faded away, slowly. What was the Bible of gaming 15 years ago, is now a small segment. Alas, we are all old now. Will I replay UO or EQ1 if they relaunch a classic server, most probably not. I have outgrown those days, my lifestyle have changed. I will remember those days as the days MMORPG filled every moments of my waking hours with fun and intensity, but ... those are over, history now.
Let me round up with 1 example, as comparison. During the early days of PC, its an "indie". Commodore to Atari to Apple to IBM (before XT). Its an exciting period, but its also a nightmare of chaos, product incompatibility (remember the problems of finding drivers, of writing endless list of printer drivers for products you maintain?). Microsoft has standardised the market a lot. No more "indie", Netscape is driven out of the market, almost every competitor is gone. Is it good? Yes and no. The same for MMORPG. The market is relatively standardised (UI, basic features like AH, skill buttons, mutiple chat channels, quests, maps ...) the age of chaos and novelty is replaced by copycat or polishing. Is it good? Yes and No.
Is that the end? Not really. PCs replaced mainframes, something will enhance or replace PCs eventually. MMO has been displacing movie going or other forms of entertainment. What will come next?
Short,to the point,no flaming,informed and non critical
EACH PERSON is entitled to his view. There are many that played WoW and 9M still paying to play it. That is some substantial number, and also the lion's share of MMORPG. Yes there are many billion christians, more than the number of WoW subscribers. So what? There are also many more billion ants. So what? Irrelevant statistics. Why compare the population of christians to population of WoW players, why not compare population of WoW players to that of VG? You are manipulating numbers and comparing totally irrelavant numbers. Bad use of statistics, very bad indeed.
Apart from using wrong comparison, you keep creating new definitions. You have not yet defined what a real PVP is apart from vague statements like PVP with costs. Who says that everyone wants PVP with costs, and what costs? PVP that will cut off your arm when you lose? PVP that will permanently kill your avatar when you lose? PVP that would strip you of all gear when you lose? PVP that will force you to go back to the grave and wait for 20 sec before rejoining? Every game has a different way of implementing PVP penalties. You have your idea about what you like, that does not make it REAL, nor does that make the others FAKE. You are trying to pass on your idea as the truth, as if your view and your view alone matters. Come on, who are you? I do not know you, and need not follow your view. Keep your view and respect our views that are different. We should share and discuss but not impose.
Sweeping statements, wrong comparison, bad use of statistics, random new terms, intolerance of different views, ... and a totally wrong way of discussing the topic. Are MMORPGs going down hill? From what you have said we know nothing, we only see a pile of hatred thrown against WoW, and WoW =/= the entire MMORPG. Nor is your hatred a reason to conclude that something must be going downhill. Your line of argument surely is going downhill.
The christian comment was a response to someone saying how great an MMORPG WoW was because of the 10 million or whatever suscribers. Learn to read thanks.
I told you what real PvP is. It's a PvP system that entails risk and reward, where players fight each other because they may not have good relations with a guild, or they may want control of a zone.
Real PvP is not having people queue up and fight each other over and over, over pointless objectives that un-immerse the player from the whole server they belong to. BGs have nothing to do with WoW the game and should not be the pvp system of choice. If you think players should be able to fight people on any server in some artificial environment over pointless objectives, maybe you should go play tetris or some other single player game because that's equivalent to what you do when you put people in instanced BGs against random people.
Everquest had a real pvp system. People fight over zones, or because they hated another guild, etc. Why is it that these newer MMORPGs have no drama? That just means they are boring. MMORPGs should largely be unmoderated, and players should be able to cause drama etc. or whatever just because it makes the game more enjoyable. It is more real that way.
Why should online games be moderated for language(profanity, not racial slurs etc.), player conduct, etc.? To me that just means each player has less rights. You have to conform to some idiotic view of an MMORPG being some kind of boxing ring where everyone is wearing padding and no one can cause any problems for other players. Not that I enjoy causing problems, but lets face it, WoW is kind of like a game where you are just fighting NPCs because there is no emotion in WoW really. It's like you can kill someone and they won't give a shit because they'll just come back in 10 seconds and fight you again.
A real PvP system wouldn't allow players to do that..
You can argue that WoW has a real pvp system, but that is a stupid viewpoint. Anyone who played real games knows that WoW's pvp system exists so unskilled players arent penalized for playing like garbage. That is a good reason why you can take the max level players in WoW, go raid an instance and get raped.. Because these players don't ever learn or become better. All they do is die and respawn and it doesn't matter at all. MMOS with costs will force players to be more careful about where they go, who they attack, and how they play their character.
How about the fact that WOW has no exploratory value at all? You can even download fully complete maps.. not that it matters much. You aren't penalized for running into level 70 zones as a level 1 really. In EQ you'd be lucky to get through 1 zone without getting beat down by some weird NPC... Games like WoW just aren't even close to being as exciting as EQ was.
In summary I hope these moronic gaming companies release a game for players who want a challening MMORPG with a non-carebear PvE and PvP system that is more unforgiving than WoW's incompetent noob-fest they call an MMORPG. What a joke of a game, nothing is an accomplishment there.
you must not be familiar with the original poster I dont think he's a fan of skill-based RPGs...
On topic, hmmm..... I really dig Indy MMOs which do things a lot diff from what you see out there now. I like to explore those and see what neat ideas they're experimenting with
Totally unsubstantiated post full of nonsense rants lacking any contributive factor. With 10 million subscribers worldwide it clearly proves people LIked the game. i THINK you are one of those WoW players that got frustrated with the game so don't go around saying the whole MMORPG industry is going down because WoW does not represent the whole gaming industry.
10 million suscribers, haha. Just because it has a lot of suscribers doesn't mean anything. Just because there are 2-3 billion people belonging to a religion, by your logic, you should assume that is the best religion? Good one
Anyway, here is my main problem with WoW.
Read it if you actually are interested in knowing why WoW went downhill (i included some meat in this argument).
Ok. The WoW PVP system is basically fake. What I mean by this is that it's artificial. Back when WoW came out, everyone was doing world pvp, attacking various cities, and had huge battles in hillsbrad. This kind of PvP sucked, but it was slightly better than BGs. The reason why it sucked: there was really no reason to pvp or to attack towns other than the act of PvPing.
If you look at a game like Everquest, and if you played a pvp server.. You would know that people would frequently have massive battles just to take control of a PvE zone to raid it. That is imo a real good reason for people to fight each other. Current MMORPGs seem to throw in PvP just to get the "PvP player" but WoW doesn't really attract the true pvpers.
Instead, WoW attracts a kind of "PvE PvPer", which means they have to throw in all this honor crap / rewards just to get people to fight each other. After WoW was released, people were kind of complainin about how PvP is like a pointless grind because you don't really get rewards, and the BGs came soon after. In addition, they decided to take out all the incentives to participate in world PvP.
Sure, the BGs might have been an improvement over the "no pvp" system that was originally in WoW. Even on the PvP servers people thought it was pointless to fight each other due to there being no rewards. You' just kill the same people over and over, and nothing really happens.
The real reason why WoW is a FAKE pvp game is because it had no real incentives to participate in World PvP over real objectives.
Almost every NPC encounter in WoW is provided by an instance. Some may agree with this, but I think it ruins the intra-server community. Guilds no longer negotiate with each other, and they don't have to deal with each other at all. Each guild has its own instance, but is that really an improvement?
Shouldn't there be a system where everything is a global spawn, and get rid of all these fake pvp systems. The real rewards were to destroy other guilds in certain zones then raid them. What is the point of fighting over and over and over in a BG? It's like there is no objective..
As I said though, it attracts the PvE PvPer: the type of person who only pvps for the rewards. That is a huge problem with the PvP system as any real pvper knows. Real PvPers don't want to keep killing the same people over and over and over, those are griefers (not that you can be griefed in WoW though). There is something about beating another guild in a fight over control of a zone that makes it more meaningful than fighting another guild in a BG and completing some pointless objective.
And there should be LOSSES in PVP. You shouldn't just respawn without a dura hit, or something like that. It's ridiculous to let them just keep coming back like that in world pvp. In EQ, the loser would leave because if they didn't, they would just get destroyed by the other guild (because they had no gear usually after losing).
With losses in pvp, it means if you win, you win. There is no sense of winning or losing in WoW pvp. It's not even an accomplishment to be on the top of your battlegroup, because your opponent doesnt lose anything. All you get is some gear, but it's not like you actually win.
What would have made WoW a better game? They should have losses in pvp, rare super-tough global npcs that causes guilds to fight each other. Get rid of the BG system, put in HUGE honor rewards for taking down town bosses. However, make it so difficult that there needs to be hundreds of people to kill them. That is an ideal WoW and it is a shame they didn't put in a real system like that, where world PvP is encouraged. Only then will there be a sense of community among a server.
I truly hope future MMORPGs don't put in systems similar to WoW's because it is really a bad system. People who play under the system i described realize that it is much more exciting to fight over real objectives rather than "run a flag back 3x" or something else.
The good news though there are some MMOs coming down the pipe that promises "meaningful pvp". Some are in early alpha stages. if you search hard you might find some that are accepting internal testers <wink, hint, hint>. But if you are picky about graphics that might limit your options...
Awesome. I was wondering if we'd have our weekly "MMOs suck" post, and by Jove here it is!
_____________________________
Currently Playing: LOTRO; DDO
Played: AC2, AO, Auto Assault, CoX, DAoC, DDO, Earth&Beyond, EQ1, EQ2, EVE, Fallen Earth, Jumpgate, Roma Victor, Second Life, SWG, V:SoH, WoW, World War II Online.
Games I'm watching: Infinity: The Quest for Earth, Force of Arms.
Find the Truth: http://www.factcheck.org/
Short,to the point,no flaming,informed and non critical
I second that...These days, the providers seem to design the game to get the $15 recurring charge. In other words, the providers today don't charge the fee to maintain the game. They make the game so they can charge the fee. When I think of all the games that either altered their development strategy (like SWG and EVE) or cancelled entirely, or reworked in development to mimic WoW gameplay (like Vanguard), it seems to me that this genre is no longer about creating virtual realities, and more about designing a Diablo II that you pay monthly for.
That's why we have all this carrot on a stick gameplay, the treadmills, and the raid instances. They want the next $15 check by leaving the player dissatisfied, rather than make the virtual environment so large and compelling, the player wants to stay there.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
I can't believe this thread is still going...
so I'll charge back in, head first, both feet forward, etc. etc.
So much opinion. Soooo much subjective material. Soooo soooo soo much...
Very little fact.
So little fact.
Fact - MMO population is much, much, much, much, much *pauses to catch breath* much, much, much higher NOW then it was BEFORE
Fact - More MMOs available and in development now then ever before (just look at the game list) and heck we even have pirate MMOs now!
Fact - Two titles currently on the horizon, AoC and WAR, that aim to offer a more "hardcore" play experience - i.e. PvP for you that believe that PvP ===== hardcore. WAR will have servers where you can only PvP in certain areas, i.e. consensual AND they will have servers where there are no "safe" areas, you can always be attacked by/attack others. ONLY protection is that you can't gank/grief people much lower in level then you.
AoC (from what I've gathered) is going to have more FFA oriented servers, and we all know the details about Guild ownership and sieges etc. etc.
Both games also promise better PvE, more depth, more customization and uniqueness.
Heck, I'll even talk about Darkfall. The FFA Hardcore PvPer's dream, YES they have been saying "any time now" for a while, but maybe/hopefully 2008 will be the year it's finally ready for Beta and release.
TO SUM IT UP-
We have a couple games on the horizon that plan to break the mold.
We have more games of more types available then ever before.
More people play MMORPGs then ever before.
So, given this information... how can someone say that MMORPGs are going downhill? All this seems very positive and uphill to me!
Three points:
1) Equating MMORPG catering to the bigger audience (the casual) as going downhill is silly. First, there is no BETTER preference. People just want different things. Second, it is a bitch that your (the hardcore) preference has become a smaller and smaller fraction of the MMORPG population. It is bad for you but that is reality. So accept it. You can bitch and moan but most (but not all) developers are going to where the audience is.
2) I don't agree that more challenge makes a better game. Games are ENTERTAINMENT. Most people, including myself, wants their entertainment stress free. In fact, I would say WOW will be BETTER if it is easier (for example, dungeon runs can be done with TWO instead of FIVE people). If I want challenges, I will do real work on my free time.
3) Don't assume a MMORPG should hold a player attention forever. It is a game, a virtual world, not a real one. If something like WOW can hold a player's attention for 6 months (and forked out 90+40 = $130), it is a huge success.
Why? Because WoW is designed to only cater to hardcore needs and hardcore playing habits. It's designed to make loot and level grinding the only things worth doing, and rewards hardcore templating, powerclan membership, and TS/vent use.
Roleplay tools, crafting, and immersion take a backseat to levelling and looting, meaning that the game really only appeals to the achiever segment at the expense of the other dispositions that typically play MMOs.
And the reason I feel safe in saying that WoW has catered to the hardcore is the rise of worlds such as Second Life, which appeal to non-gamers, with no rigidly discernable goals or achievement benchmarks like rankings, stats, or levels.
I'm sure a lot of those Second Lifers would like a new virtual setting to visit. The only problem is that the places like WoW have no room for creative expression or user determined goals. All of this can be traced back to the attitude that has become commonplace in today's MMO landscape: that if you aren't pursuing combat/exp/loots, you aren't having fun.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Your definition of hardcore is different from mine. Achievement based gameplay (grinding for xp/loot)is not necessarily hard core in my definition.
I define casual (the opposite of hardcore) as less risks, less time-commitment, and less stress in the gameplay, and not necessarily the actual activity. Grinding can be hardcore (like the campfest in EQ) or casual (like the easy-to-jump-into WOW questing).
PvP can be hardcore (dead penalty high, player controlled space like in Eve) or casual (BG in WOW).