I propose someone makes a poll(I would but I don't know how) just to see the percentage of people that actually do want a true pvp game. I would hope that more people would want a true pvp game than is suggested by some in this post. As said by many in this post about eves true pvp concepts for people wanting true pvp to give that a test. Most people dont play eve who do appreciate its awesome(imo) pvp and player controlled territories, just simply because of its space only genre. Give me a fantasy version or a swg type model where ground is approachable as well, with player territory such as EVE and early SWG, and pvp with a risk, and I will buy that game right now.
And polls on this site will be accurate because?
I dunno know the percentage of the world population who wants a "true pvp" game. However, a) that would NOT be me, and b) there are at least 10M people would not want it.
With the immense number of games like World of Warcraft on the market, there is no cake for me. The PvP servers in these games are not PvP servers at all, they don't encourage players to claim land or towns for their clans and they don't encourage world PvP. Why can't I loot someone on death? Its not hardcore to drop a few items on death, its hardcore to have permadeath. I want my fuckin cake. Asheron's Call Darktide was good cake, and I want more. Hell even EQ had decent PvP cake. You dropped shit when you died.
How many people does a niche game needs to be successful? I don't know ask the developers of Matrix Online or Seed or any other number of failed niche games. That's exactly the point, games with 100k subscribers are still making money. Read.
Here's the thing, boss, you're not citing any evidence besides the fact that people like UO and EVE. Hell, even I love UO and EVE. People are playing UO because of nostalgia, even I get on a free shard every once in a while. EVE has a lot more to offer than just PvP with all of the politics and economy factors. Besides which, it's pretty much the only space mmo out there. And lastly, people are playing Shadowbane because it's free. It went free for a reason--no one wanted to pay for it. So? The fact that people play UO and EVE at all mean people exist that will at the very least tolerate open PvP mechanics. Contrary to your assertation that "nobody wants to play a game in which you can lose all your stuff". And Shadowbane was unpopular because it plain out sucked. People played it prior to it becoming free in 2006, despite it's horrid quality.
As for me being a mind reading developer, all I have to do is follow the trend of the MMORPGs under development to see where the market is heading and to which audience developers are trying to cater. Like I said, whip out a MS Word and get cracking on that business plan. If you honestly believe that there is a market for it, get to it, boss. Why? Guess what, retard, you're the one making comments about the state of developers' minds, and declaring by personal fiat what people will damn well enjoy in their games. In other words, you are playing armchair developer, not me. What did I say in my very first post?
1. Refuted the claim that nobody liked full loot
2. Pointed out the hypocrisy in protesting the OP's attitude toward "carebear" games, while doing the very same thing in reverse
3. Claimed that a hardcore PvP population exists, and that a game does not necessarily need WoW's numbers to be successful If anybody here has game developer aspirations, it's you, so why don't you mathematically prove a MMO game featuring hardcore PvP cannot exist?
I'll give you a hint: "Hardcore PVP MMO" is not in and of itself an MMO genre, one that you can stereotype with certain featuresets. So the statement "All MMOs featuring hardcore PvP must make you grind for month, only to lose it all to those dastardly teenagers." is quite incorrect. Hardcore PvP MMO simply means any MMOG with hardcore PvP elements in it. I'll give you another hint: EVE Online is an MMOG with semi-unrestricted PvP and full loot on death. That currently exists.
I'm only basing my comment on the 10 million players who pay Blizzard $15/month. I'm sure each and every one of those 10 million people said to themselves: 'I'M GOING TO PLAY WOW SOLEY FOR THE REASON THAT NOBODY CAN KILL ME AND STEAL MY STUFF. BLIZZARD'S REPUTATION FOR DELIVERING HIGH QUALITY POLISHED GAMES, GLOWING REVIEWS BY GAMING MEDIA, LAX GRAPHICAL REQUIREMENTS, AND THE FACT THAT ALL MY FRIENDS ARE PLAYING IT HAVE NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH MY DECISION." Yeah, I'm sure many WoW players like the relaxed death penalty. Like I said before, attributing WoW's success solely to this one factor is idiocy.
Using WoW's success as proof that nobody likes looting PvP is similarly retarded. By your logic, since WoW lacks spaceships (Naaru dimensional fortresses exempted), and WoW is a 10 million user success, a certain space based game which features spaceships must therefore suck balls.
RPGs are designed around improving your character through levels/skills and equipment. Take that away and you don't have an MMORPG, you have an MMOG. If we're talking about MMOGs, than I agree with you. Now you're splitting hairs. If you define RPG as "statistic based, leveling up game", then yes, I'm in agreement. To me, RPG simply means "role playing game", where you take on the role of a character.
Is EVE a traditional RPG? The EVE approach to equipment is what I was getting at, with the various T1 modules not being far inferior to T2. I never said "implement full loot PvP in a game designed for grinding PvE like WoW". I said "Hey, it'd be cool if somebody made a full loot PvP game that was designed around it, like EVE. I'll clarify: both an MMOG and an MMORPG can exist featuring hardcore PvP elements. "Hardcore PvP" being defined as unrestricted or semi-unrestricted PvP, with item loss on death.
UO was a hardcore PvP MMORPG. EVE is a hardcore PvP MMOG - it's up to you if you'd classify it as an RPG or not.
My claim is that hardcore PvP mechanics are compatible with both standard RPG formats and as well as less traditional skill-based formats.
With all of the insurance and the clones you aren't really risking anything, except maybe for your cargo and modules. I'll concede the insurance, but you're still losing your stuff'; insurance is more to soften the blow. EVE is somewhat newbie friendly that way, because when you're first starting out, you don't lose much. Later on, your implants, T2 hulls, and T2 modules have a much bigger impact. In any case, the point is people are willing to take risks in a game like EVE. People are willing to risk freaking Titans, Motherships and space stations in a game where risk and reward is meaningful, participation in the world is meaningful. Imagine that.
The hardcore population does exist, I'm not denying that. So does a furry population, however. And just how many games cater to furries? I'm sure that there are a couple of thousands of furries out there, why not cater to them? Hey genius, hardcore PvP is a gameplay preference. Gee, what could be more far fetched than designing games to match a gameplay preference. Furries are sexual/lifestyle fetishists. Huh, imagine that, they have websites, conventions, costumes, guess what, even gamesdevoted to or compatible with their interests, albeit crappy ones.
No but Darkfall is the only MMORPG that is going to offer unrestricted PvP. If it ever comes out that is. So what's your point for bringing it up? It's one of the few MMO games on the radar to offer unrestricted PvP, so?
They did add a lot more PVE content which greatly helped their game. Again, so what? More content never hurt anybody. EVE adds PVE and PVP content all the time. All the better for it. If you are trying to prove PVP is detrimental to EVE Online, you fail, because you haven't proven a thing.
If your point is that EVE requires both PVE and PVP elements, then I'm in agreement. Where did I ever claim mutual exclusivity between PvP and PvE?
PS: you hardcore PvPers are an angry bunch aren't you? Hah. I'd love to see the reasoning behind that observation.
Would you, as a potential business person, be happy providing a product to just 1,000 people, or would you want to reach as many people as possible, especialy if the product cost millions to develop? There is a market for everything out there. Hardcore PvP, softcore porn, furries, goths, cat lovers, you name it. There are thousands af different social and interest groups who could be catered to if a developer wanted to make a little money. But who wants to make a little money?
Problem is that to develop, most games require a lot of money. Money that the developers do not have and as such require investment by other people/firms. Those said investors would like to see a nice return on their investments. That's the main reason why they are investing--to make money. Most of them don't care about the game or wether or not it will have free PvP. Investors don't want to hear Vanguard's numbers (especialy after the development costs), they want to hear WoW's numbers.
Businesses are here to make money, plain and simple. If you fail to realize why most AAA games, which cost millions upon millions to develop, will not cater to a minority interest group, there is nothing I can do to convince you. However, if you claim that your UO shards and Shadowbane and even EVE numbers prove that there is a market for it, why is it that no one is jumping on such a lucrative bandwagon that hardcore PvP?
As for you coming of as angry, just the simple fact that you called me a retard and generaly come off as a pompous asshole is reason enough.
You can have your cake. The problem you're having is it's the same cake you've probably had for the last ten years, and so you don't want to eat the cake.
But I tell you this friend, there are only a few options for us connoiseurs sitting around the table. You either acknowledge your fate, give in to hunger and eat the cake, or you order pie, or you get up from the table and refuse to come back until they change the menu.
I propose someone makes a poll(I would but I don't know how) just to see the percentage of people that actually do want a true pvp game. I would hope that more people would want a true pvp game than is suggested by some in this post. As said by many in this post about eves true pvp concepts for people wanting true pvp to give that a test. Most people dont play eve who do appreciate its awesome(imo) pvp and player controlled territories, just simply because of its space only genre. Give me a fantasy version or a swg type model where ground is approachable as well, with player territory such as EVE and early SWG, and pvp with a risk, and I will buy that game right now.
And polls on this site will be accurate because?
I dunno know the percentage of the world population who wants a "true pvp" game. However, a) that would NOT be me, and b) there are at least 10M people would not want it.
I don't really care if its not you but from what I've seen just on this post alone is its about 50-50 between wanting hardcore pvp and not. I have played enough of the "wow" model games that have come out in the past 2 years that I am sick of their idea of pvp and from what I am seeing I am not the only one that is sick of it. Numbers might not be 100% realistic, but here you'll see better results than what you will see from anywhere else, this being an mmorpg site.
1. Nice misdirection, claiming a mere 1000 people will play a hardcore PvP game. When a single large UO shard has that much. When Shadowbane during it's paid subscription days peaked at 50k. When EVE Online packs 200k. So in other words, in order for your magical hardcore PvP game to be successful, it will need to somehow bring in most of the players from UO, Shadowbane and EVE?You ever thought that maybe the people that play these games don't just play them because of open PvP but because they are actualy fans of the above mentioned games?
Show me a game that'll even come close to WoW's numbers. You can't. At some point, you can make a mediocre game targeting a demographic that's almost entirely eaten up by WoW, or you can make a mediocre game targeting an entirely new demographic largely untouched not only by WoW, but by virtually the entire genre at large. But would you want to play a mediocre game? Asia is full of them and some do offer open PvP.
Hey dyslexio, I called you a retard in my most recent previous post - you know, after you called hardcore PvPers "angry". As for retard, well if the shoe fits...
Says the guy thinking himself a mind-reading, game-developing, business investor, apparently with the power to declare what people will and will not enjoy in their games.
If a spade's a spade, if dumb is dumb, if wrong is wrong; I calls em as I sees em.
Again, with the insults. I find it interesting that you cannot repply to a post without adding an insult or two. That's not a good way to help get your point across.
You seem to be really passionate about this hardcore PvP game that will have the polish of WoW, the depth of EVE and be mediocre enough to allow for a small development cost. To that, all I can see is good luck in your search!
I propose someone makes a poll(I would but I don't know how) just to see the percentage of people that actually do want a true pvp game. I would hope that more people would want a true pvp game than is suggested by some in this post. As said by many in this post about eves true pvp concepts for people wanting true pvp to give that a test. Most people dont play eve who do appreciate its awesome(imo) pvp and player controlled territories, just simply because of its space only genre. Give me a fantasy version or a swg type model where ground is approachable as well, with player territory such as EVE and early SWG, and pvp with a risk, and I will buy that game right now.
And polls on this site will be accurate because?
I dunno know the percentage of the world population who wants a "true pvp" game. However, a) that would NOT be me, and b) there are at least 10M people would not want it.
I don't really care if its not you but from what I've seen just on this post alone is its about 50-50 between wanting hardcore pvp and not. I have played enough of the "wow" model games that have come out in the past 2 years that I am sick of their idea of pvp and from what I am seeing I am not the only one that is sick of it. Numbers might not be 100% realistic, but here you'll see better results than what you will see from anywhere else, this being an mmorpg site.
50-50? LOL .. may be 50-50 for the active poster on a small website.
Just check the pop of PvP vs PvE servers on any major MMO and you will see PvE outnumber PvP by a LARGE margin.
50-50? LOL .. may be 50-50 for the active poster on a small website.
Just check the pop of PvP vs PvE servers on any major MMO and you will see PvE outnumber PvP by a LARGE margin.
First of all thats not true, second of all did I say this post or did I say every mmo out there, l2read. imo todays pvp servers are weak and hardly pvp servers anyways.
I ask for someone to make a poll about hardcore pvp and I get trolled, I didn't know having an opinion was wrong.
I know my crowd for pvp is not as numerous as the dull "wow model" crowd, but I know we are profitable nonetheless. Anyone who argues that is shitting themselves.
First of all thats not true, second of all did I say this post or did I say every mmo out there, l2read. imo todays pvp servers are weak and hardly pvp servers anyways.
I ask for someone to make a poll about hardcore pvp and I get trolled, I didn't know having an opinion was wrong. I know my crowd for pvp is not as numerous as the dull "wow model" crowd, but I know we are profitable nonetheless. Anyone who argues that is shitting themselves.
If your demographic was as profitable as you claim, there would be a lot of hardcore PvP games out there. Where are they?
First of all thats not true, second of all did I say this post or did I say every mmo out there, l2read. imo todays pvp servers are weak and hardly pvp servers anyways.
I ask for someone to make a poll about hardcore pvp and I get trolled, I didn't know having an opinion was wrong. I know my crowd for pvp is not as numerous as the dull "wow model" crowd, but I know we are profitable nonetheless. Anyone who argues that is shitting themselves.
If your demographic was as profitable as you claim, there would be a lot of hardcore PvP games out there. Where are they?
Cortanya has answered that question by you at lest 3 times in this thread. There are at least enough of us for someone to make at least 1 profitable game
First of all thats not true, second of all did I say this post or did I say every mmo out there, l2read. imo todays pvp servers are weak and hardly pvp servers anyways.
I ask for someone to make a poll about hardcore pvp and I get trolled, I didn't know having an opinion was wrong. I know my crowd for pvp is not as numerous as the dull "wow model" crowd, but I know we are profitable nonetheless. Anyone who argues that is shitting themselves.
If your demographic was as profitable as you claim, there would be a lot of hardcore PvP games out there. Where are they?
Cortanya has answered that question by you at lest 3 times in this thread. There are at least enough of us for someone to make at least 1 profitable game
But there is a reason why no one does it. I wonder why that is? Or do you think that MMORPGs are released on a whim without any research? I'm sure that before work started on World of Warcraft, Age of Conan, Warhammer and many others, research was done to determine which demographic should the game be geared towards. Somehow, your group was overlooked in most cases. If you are such a numerous bunch, why do developers continue to ignore you?
As far as Cortanya's answer, all he did was show me that people still play UO, EVE and Shadowbane. I knew that already. Those examples aren't an accurate representation of the hardcore PvP population simply because we can't be sure of the actual reasons for people playing those games. For example a simple reason could be: Shadowbane is free to play, EVE has a lot more going for it than hardcore PvP, which by the way is softened by insurance and clones and whatnot, and UO was the one of the first MMORPGs out there and is still considered one of the greatest by many, myself included. Both UO and EVE bring a whole lot more to the table than hardcore PvP, thus, I would consider claiming that all of the people play these games because of hardcore PvP as wrong. I cannot comment on Shadowbane because I never played it.
I appologize eventhough I live in the USA, I am originaly from Kiev, Ukraine and as such my command of the English language might not be as good as yours. However, I chose to answer the parts of your posts that I considered relevant to the discussion and tried to leave out the parts where you attempted to belittle me with your weak attempts at witty sarcasm.
To make the long story short, seek therapy. Seriously. If you cannot find a way to answer a post without resorting to insults, you might have a problem. No matter if you think that your points are valid, insults don't help them in any way. Anyway, I realize that it can be hard living with cooped up anger and no way to release it but there are treatments for that now.
But there is a reason why no one does it. I wonder why that is? Or do you think that MMORPGs are released on a whim without any research? I'm sure that before work started on World of Warcraft, Age of Conan, Warhammer and many others, research was done to determine which demographic should the game be geared towards. Somehow, your group was overlooked in most cases. If you are such a numerous bunch, why do developers continue to ignore you?
As far as Cortanya's answer, all he did was show me that people still play UO, EVE and Shadowbane. I knew that already. Those examples aren't an accurate representation of the hardcore PvP population simply because we can't be sure of the actual reasons for people playing those games.
Congratulations, dumbass. In one smooth move you managed to both misrepresent my argument, and accuse me of doing the very same thing I called you out for.
I never once said UO, EVE, Shadowbane players played solely for hardcore PvP. I stated numerous times that they represent players compatible with a hardcore PvP game. JTFC, learn to read.
And I recall nariusseldon as well as yourself claiming all 10 million of WoW's subscribers play soley for its softcore PvP system.
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
EVE has a lot more going for it than hardcore PvP, which by the way is softened by insurance and clones and whatnot
Because a hardcore PvP game must be simplistic, and can by no means be as complex as EVE, right?
Does it occur to you that many hardcore PvP proponents want hardcore PvP as a means to add meaning to the rich political, territorial, and economic aspects of gameplay, just like EVE?
And just how many hardcore PvP proponents are you talking about? You and who else? You're throwing numbers around saying that some people are compatible with free PvP, but these same people can be considered compatible with any other feature that these games have. Again, just because people play UO, EVE and Shadowbane does not meant that they enjoy free PvP. It's an assumption on your part just like me using 10 million WoW players was an assumption on my part.
I would still like an answer to why do you think that game developers are ingoring your demographic. I mean if you claim to be profitable then developers would be stupid not to cash in, right?
I appologize eventhough I live in the USA, I am originaly from Kiev, Ukraine and as such my command of the English language might not be as good as yours.
You seem to have a decent grasp of English grammar and mechanics. My beef with you is your apparent failure in logic.
However, this may be a result of your inability to fully understand what I'm saying or trying to say. If this is the case, then fine. I'll retract some of my insults, and say you're not as dumb as I thought you were.
However, I chose to answer the parts of your posts that I considered relevant to the discussion and tried to leave out the parts where you attempted to belittle me with your weak attempts at witty sarcasm.
Regardless of what your first language is, that's a dumb attitude. What's more important, the truth, or people's feelings?
No. I don't have to sprinkle insults into my responses. I do anyway. That's just what I do.
Dismissing logically valid arguments backed up by evidence soley because of a few insults tacked on to them? Why? Do insults make an argument any less valid? Does a false veneer of Miss Manners stick-up-the-ass protocol make anything more valid? True, an argument based on insults is invalid, but this is the equivalent of me saying "2 + 2 = 4, and you suck". And you replying with "2 + 2 does not = 4, because you insulted me.)
I notice this entire post did not attempt to respond to anything I previously said, just complaining about me being mean. How bout that.
To make the long story short, seek therapy. Seriously. If you cannot find a way to answer a post without resorting to insults, you might have a problem. No matter if you think that your points are valid, insults don't help them in any way. Anyway, I realize that it can be hard living with cooped up anger and no way to release it but there are treatments for that now.
If this is some kind of weakass lame insult attempt, I'm prepared to fire up the flamethrowers and return fire.
I'll chalk it up to culture clash, if you seriously think I'm sitting here with high blood pressure shouting at the keyboard. My primary state of mind here has been amusement. I'm laughing as I'm typing these. It's fun arguing with people online and trying to prove them wrong, and trying to prove you're cleverer, and insulting them and laughing at them.
I'm not trolling - trolling would be posting nonsense just to piss people off. I'm at least somewhat serious, but I'm just here having fun, waiting for some good games to come out. This is stress relief, not stress inducing.
PS - I'm not even deliberately trying to be excessively insulting or controversial. I save that for when I want to get banned from religious or political online communities.
In any case, let's not get side tracked. The following are my claims:
1. "Hardcore" PvP is defined as a player vs. player environment in which artificial restrictions on engaging in player vs. player combat are relaxed or removed. "Hardcore PvP" also features full or partial item loot on death, as part of a "zero sum" philosopy. For there to be a meaningful winner, there must also be a loser. Most descriptions of proposed "Hardcore PvP" are reminiscient of old school Felucca UO.
2. A population exists that actively wishes to play a Hardcore PvP game. The Darkfall Online forums have 50k registered users. The game has no planned release date, but thousands are anticipating the concept. Countless websites, forums, and blogs feature individual players reminiscing about the "old school UO days", and eagerly awaiting a new UO-esque game. The community is out there.
3. A larger population exists that is compatible with a hardcore PvP environment. This population exists in UO shards, Shadowbane, EVE Online, and a number of other PvP games. Runescape is massively popular among younger gamers for its simplicity, accessibility, and very low system requirements. Until very recently, it featured full loot PvP in large sections of the map. A recent poll found that 70% of all players engaged in some form of PvP (not counting consensual dueling). Obviously, the mere presence of hardcore PvP does not spell the kiss of death for a number of reasonably popular games.
4. Hardcore PvP is a mechanic that stands on its own. It is but one factor in a game's design, neither mutually exclusive or inclusive of other features such as: twitch FPS combat, gear based, skill based, territory conquest, sandbox MMO, sandbox open economy, etc. None of the above are mandatory in the definition of Hardcore PvP. They are seperate game design elements. EVE features hardcore PvP. It has territory conquest, but not twitch combat. Runescape features somewhat hardcore PvP, but does not have territory conquest.
5. While certain gameplay characteristics mentioned above do not necessarily form the description of hardcore PvP, some of them work well with hardcore PvP better than others. For example, most Western hardcore PvP games place less emphasis on gear, and generally more emphasis on either character skills that cannot be lost, or player skills independant of the character. EVE gear is not as gamebreaking as WoW gear. And if you keep your clone up to date, you don't lose your skills. Runescape gear is quite important, but relatively easy to obtain. Some Eastern hardcore PvP MMOs feature a large emphasis on gear, with an extreme grinding curve. Obviously, this is quite unpopular in Western gaming culture. Nobody wants to get stabbed cause you stole their Dragon Sword. Hardcore PvP tends to be compatible with the "sandbox" style game, with an open economy, and with open territorial and political conquest. What do hardcore PvPers want in their games? Not merely "BOOM HEADSHOT!". They want the more meaningful player interaction possible as a result of players having real power to affect the world and each other. (Note that I am not claiming a sandbox game MUST feature hardcore PvP to be successful. A game like Second Life features no PvP at all.)
6. A game does not have to be as "good" (stable, polished, well supported) as WoW to be successful. Blizzard has the resources and experience to keep their game running smoothly. EQ and LOTRO, similar to WoW, feature populations in the hundreds of thousands. SWG, maligned for their poor customer support, still sports 150k or so players. Vanguard, by all rights a buggy and rushed game, still has a population of 50k or so.
7. A game does not have to have WoW's subscriber numbers to be successful. The closest competitor to WoW on the horizon is WAR. In interviews, lead developers stated WoW's 10m count was "a one shot deal", and they'd "be happy with 1 million". Imagine that, one of the biggest names in MMO games is aiming for 1 million. If they hit it, they'd be the first western MMO to do so. Since WoW. Average MMO games do not pull in 10 million people. Average MMO games do not pull in 1 million people. Games with more than 100k can be considered "mainstream".
Do you have a problem with any of the above? Then prove me wrong, with logic and evidence. Hop to it.
And just how many hardcore PvP proponents are you talking about? You and who else? You're throwing numbers around saying that some people are compatible with free PvP, but these same people can be considered compatible with any other feature that these games have. Again, just because people play UO, EVE and Shadowbane does not meant that they enjoy free PvP. It's an assumption on your part just like me using 10 million WoW players was an assumption on my part.
Bullshit.
Let's go over this again, slowly.
You said: "WoW has 10 million players. All 10 million WoW players will never play a hardcore PvP game."
Can you not see the failure in logic there? Here's a hint: I play WoW. I would play a hardcore PvP game.
And here's what I said: "UO, Shadowbane, and EVE have a lot of players. Each of those players represents a player who would be willing to play in a game featuring hardcore PvP."
Had I claimed "everyone who plays UO/EVE/Shadowbane plays for PvP", I'd be just as WRONG as you. Lucky I never made that claim, huh?
I would still like an answer to why do you think that game developers are ingoring your demographic. I mean if you claim to be profitable then developers would be stupid not to cash in, right?
JTFC. I'll give you a dollar if you can point to where I claim developers are "ignoring" my demographic. Previous posters in the topic may or may not have, but I never did.
All I've done is proven that the demographic exists. If game developers for whatever reason are choosing not to market to that demographic at this time, what's that got to do with me? I'm not a games dev.
My goal was solely to 1)prove the hardcore PvP demographic exists, 2) refute and insult illogical and invalid responses to the same. I never made claims as to developers' states of mind or intentions, nor did I attempt to offer theories regarding what types of games they choose to develop.
I'll give you a dollar if you can point to where I claim developers are "ignoring" my demographic. Previous posters in the topic may or may not have, but I never did. All I've done is proven that the demographic exists. If game developers for whatever reason are choosing not to market to that demographic at this time, what's that got to do with me? I'm not a games dev. My goal was solely to 1)prove the hardcore PvP demographic exists, 2) refute and insult illogical and invalid responses to the same.
I never made claims as to developers' states of mind or intentions, nor did I attempt to offer theories regarding what types of games they choose to develop.
My point was to show that eventhough the hardcore PvP demographic exists, it is not big enough for most AAA development houses to bother with.
50-50? LOL .. may be 50-50 for the active poster on a small website.
Just check the pop of PvP vs PvE servers on any major MMO and you will see PvE outnumber PvP by a LARGE margin.
First of all thats not true, second of all did I say this post or did I say every mmo out there, l2read. imo todays pvp servers are weak and hardly pvp servers anyways.
I ask for someone to make a poll about hardcore pvp and I get trolled, I didn't know having an opinion was wrong.
I know my crowd for pvp is not as numerous as the dull "wow model" crowd, but I know we are profitable nonetheless. Anyone who argues that is shitting themselves.
Sure, there is one game for hardcore Pvpers ... Eve Online. And I am sure it is profitable.
WoW's PvP does not transfer. PvP in WoW is a cool down session, a hobby, and cool down.
the fact that WoW's PvP servers make up over half the servers just proves that people want to do as much as possible in a MMO. NOT that they want a game that focuses on PvP*.
do realize these are games, and that game is mentioned directly inside the genres title.
_________________________
As for me I just live with PvP, it's just a requirement(one that has to drift towards being 'hardcore') for player control worlds in order to balance them.
I mean seriously if you want this so called 'hardcore' PvP as far as I care you shouldn't be playing a game with it. It really doesn't add any meaning to the game if other mechanics aren't there, in other words you want an utter crap game designed around PvP instead of a game that's well designed.
*especially your prereq's for being 'real' PvP.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
I propose someone makes a poll(I would but I don't know how) just to see the percentage of people that actually do want a true pvp game. I would hope that more people would want a true pvp game than is suggested by some in this post. As said by many in this post about eves true pvp concepts for people wanting true pvp to give that a test. Most people dont play eve who do appreciate its awesome(imo) pvp and player controlled territories, just simply because of its space only genre. Give me a fantasy version or a swg type model where ground is approachable as well, with player territory such as EVE and early SWG, and pvp with a risk, and I will buy that game right now.
And polls on this site will be accurate because?
I dunno know the percentage of the world population who wants a "true pvp" game. However, a) that would NOT be me, and b) there are at least 10M people would not want it.
What is your point? Do you actually read posts on the forums or do you just skim through looking for one that you can utter your "WoW has 10 million subscribers, all of them obviously hate open PvP and only want to play casual MMO's". People on both sides of the arguement have mades some good points. WoW is very successful and does hold a lot of subscribers, but have you ever thought that maybe a lot of them only play because it because there is nothing really out there right now and it is just something to pass the time? I currently play WoW, along with 10 other friends. We don't play because it fits exactly what we want. We (my group of friends and I) are playing to pass the time until something better (our opinions) comes out. Right now we are waiting to play AoC, but we would all love to play a free loot, class-less, level-less, sandbox type game. Do you think it is possible that a large portion of WoW subscribers are doing the same thing? I talk to tons of people in game that say they are only playing until ______ releases. For real, WoW is like *insert popular band/musical artist that everyone listens to but they really aren't all that talented here*. Some listen because they actually like it. Some listen because its what some of their friends are doing. Some listen because it is easy to access (on TV and radio all the time), and others because they just don't know what else is out there and its the only thing they've listened to. These "artists" make a lot of money, largely dude to the fact that their managers are marketing geniouses. Hanah Montana tickets were selling for wat, 1,500 bucks or something like that? I don't think I'm alone in saying that there are much more talented musicians out there who are less popular. WoW is similar to this in a lot of ways.
That all said, I would gladly embrace an MMORPG that contains open-loot, FFA PvP.
I propose someone makes a poll(I would but I don't know how) just to see the percentage of people that actually do want a true pvp game. I would hope that more people would want a true pvp game than is suggested by some in this post. As said by many in this post about eves true pvp concepts for people wanting true pvp to give that a test. Most people dont play eve who do appreciate its awesome(imo) pvp and player controlled territories, just simply because of its space only genre. Give me a fantasy version or a swg type model where ground is approachable as well, with player territory such as EVE and early SWG, and pvp with a risk, and I will buy that game right now.
And polls on this site will be accurate because?
I dunno know the percentage of the world population who wants a "true pvp" game. However, a) that would NOT be me, and b) there are at least 10M people would not want it.
What is your point? Do you actually read posts on the forums or do you just skim through looking for one that you can utter your "WoW has 10 million subscribers, all of them obviously hate open PvP and only want to play casual MMO's". People on both sides of the arguement have mades some good points. WoW is very successful and does hold a lot of subscribers, but have you ever thought that maybe a lot of them only play because it because there is nothing really out there right now and it is just something to pass the time? I currently play WoW, along with 10 other friends. We don't play because it fits exactly what we want. We (my group of friends and I) are playing to pass the time until something better (our opinions) comes out. Right now we are waiting to play AoC, but we would all love to play a free loot, class-less, level-less, sandbox type game. Do you think it is possible that a large portion of WoW subscribers are doing the same thing? I talk to tons of people in game that say they are only playing until ______ releases. For real, WoW is like *insert popular band/musical artist that everyone listens to but they really aren't all that talented here*. Some listen because they actually like it. Some listen because its what some of their friends are doing. Some listen because it is easy to access (on TV and radio all the time), and others because they just don't know what else is out there and its the only thing they've listened to. These "artists" make a lot of money, largely dude to the fact that their managers are marketing geniouses. Hanah Montana tickets were selling for wat, 1,500 bucks or something like that? I don't think I'm alone in saying that there are much more talented musicians out there who are less popular. WoW is similar to this in a lot of ways.
That all said, I would gladly embrace an MMORPG that contains open-loot, FFA PvP.
Open-loot, FFA PvP has been tried (UO in the beginning) and it has failed miserably in the marketplace.
Sure, to find your niche game. Just don't expect a huge following.
Sure, there may be many reasons why there are so many people playing WOW. But have you considered that they may be doing something right and found the preferences of the many? It is not like they don't have competition when they started.
I propose someone makes a poll(I would but I don't know how) just to see the percentage of people that actually do want a true pvp game. I would hope that more people would want a true pvp game than is suggested by some in this post. As said by many in this post about eves true pvp concepts for people wanting true pvp to give that a test. Most people dont play eve who do appreciate its awesome(imo) pvp and player controlled territories, just simply because of its space only genre. Give me a fantasy version or a swg type model where ground is approachable as well, with player territory such as EVE and early SWG, and pvp with a risk, and I will buy that game right now.
And polls on this site will be accurate because?
I dunno know the percentage of the world population who wants a "true pvp" game. However, a) that would NOT be me, and b) there are at least 10M people would not want it.
What is your point? Do you actually read posts on the forums or do you just skim through looking for one that you can utter your "WoW has 10 million subscribers, all of them obviously hate open PvP and only want to play casual MMO's". People on both sides of the arguement have mades some good points. WoW is very successful and does hold a lot of subscribers, but have you ever thought that maybe a lot of them only play because it because there is nothing really out there right now and it is just something to pass the time? I currently play WoW, along with 10 other friends. We don't play because it fits exactly what we want. We (my group of friends and I) are playing to pass the time until something better (our opinions) comes out. Right now we are waiting to play AoC, but we would all love to play a free loot, class-less, level-less, sandbox type game. Do you think it is possible that a large portion of WoW subscribers are doing the same thing? I talk to tons of people in game that say they are only playing until ______ releases. For real, WoW is like *insert popular band/musical artist that everyone listens to but they really aren't all that talented here*. Some listen because they actually like it. Some listen because its what some of their friends are doing. Some listen because it is easy to access (on TV and radio all the time), and others because they just don't know what else is out there and its the only thing they've listened to. These "artists" make a lot of money, largely dude to the fact that their managers are marketing geniouses. Hanah Montana tickets were selling for wat, 1,500 bucks or something like that? I don't think I'm alone in saying that there are much more talented musicians out there who are less popular. WoW is similar to this in a lot of ways.
That all said, I would gladly embrace an MMORPG that contains open-loot, FFA PvP.
Open-loot, FFA PvP has been tried (UO in the beginning) and it has failed miserably in the marketplace.
Sure, to find your niche game. Just don't expect a huge following.
Sure, there may be many reasons why there are so many people playing WOW. But have you considered that they may be doing something right and found the preferences of the many? It is not like they don't have competition when they started.
Actually most of that 10 million people are new to MMO's and all they have played is WoW so in reality very few of that 10 mil have even tried out different game styles let alone heard of them. Not that there choice of MMO doesant count its just that compared to the minority that has tried several MMO's and therefore different styles are pretty uninformed in comparison.
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
Comments
And polls on this site will be accurate because?
I dunno know the percentage of the world population who wants a "true pvp" game. However, a) that would NOT be me, and b) there are at least 10M people would not want it.
Join the army
Problem is that to develop, most games require a lot of money. Money that the developers do not have and as such require investment by other people/firms. Those said investors would like to see a nice return on their investments. That's the main reason why they are investing--to make money. Most of them don't care about the game or wether or not it will have free PvP. Investors don't want to hear Vanguard's numbers (especialy after the development costs), they want to hear WoW's numbers.
Businesses are here to make money, plain and simple. If you fail to realize why most AAA games, which cost millions upon millions to develop, will not cater to a minority interest group, there is nothing I can do to convince you. However, if you claim that your UO shards and Shadowbane and even EVE numbers prove that there is a market for it, why is it that no one is jumping on such a lucrative bandwagon that hardcore PvP?
As for you coming of as angry, just the simple fact that you called me a retard and generaly come off as a pompous asshole is reason enough.
You can have your cake. The problem you're having is it's the same cake you've probably had for the last ten years, and so you don't want to eat the cake.
But I tell you this friend, there are only a few options for us connoiseurs sitting around the table. You either acknowledge your fate, give in to hunger and eat the cake, or you order pie, or you get up from the table and refuse to come back until they change the menu.
And polls on this site will be accurate because?
I dunno know the percentage of the world population who wants a "true pvp" game. However, a) that would NOT be me, and b) there are at least 10M people would not want it.
I don't really care if its not you but from what I've seen just on this post alone is its about 50-50 between wanting hardcore pvp and not. I have played enough of the "wow" model games that have come out in the past 2 years that I am sick of their idea of pvp and from what I am seeing I am not the only one that is sick of it. Numbers might not be 100% realistic, but here you'll see better results than what you will see from anywhere else, this being an mmorpg site.
And polls on this site will be accurate because?
I dunno know the percentage of the world population who wants a "true pvp" game. However, a) that would NOT be me, and b) there are at least 10M people would not want it.
I don't really care if its not you but from what I've seen just on this post alone is its about 50-50 between wanting hardcore pvp and not. I have played enough of the "wow" model games that have come out in the past 2 years that I am sick of their idea of pvp and from what I am seeing I am not the only one that is sick of it. Numbers might not be 100% realistic, but here you'll see better results than what you will see from anywhere else, this being an mmorpg site.
50-50? LOL .. may be 50-50 for the active poster on a small website.
Just check the pop of PvP vs PvE servers on any major MMO and you will see PvE outnumber PvP by a LARGE margin.
50-50? LOL .. may be 50-50 for the active poster on a small website.
Just check the pop of PvP vs PvE servers on any major MMO and you will see PvE outnumber PvP by a LARGE margin.
First of all thats not true, second of all did I say this post or did I say every mmo out there, l2read. imo todays pvp servers are weak and hardly pvp servers anyways.
I ask for someone to make a poll about hardcore pvp and I get trolled, I didn't know having an opinion was wrong.
I know my crowd for pvp is not as numerous as the dull "wow model" crowd, but I know we are profitable nonetheless. Anyone who argues that is shitting themselves.
If your demographic was as profitable as you claim, there would be a lot of hardcore PvP games out there. Where are they?
If your demographic was as profitable as you claim, there would be a lot of hardcore PvP games out there. Where are they?
Cortanya has answered that question by you at lest 3 times in this thread. There are at least enough of us for someone to make at least 1 profitable game
If your demographic was as profitable as you claim, there would be a lot of hardcore PvP games out there. Where are they?
Cortanya has answered that question by you at lest 3 times in this thread. There are at least enough of us for someone to make at least 1 profitable game
But there is a reason why no one does it. I wonder why that is? Or do you think that MMORPGs are released on a whim without any research? I'm sure that before work started on World of Warcraft, Age of Conan, Warhammer and many others, research was done to determine which demographic should the game be geared towards. Somehow, your group was overlooked in most cases. If you are such a numerous bunch, why do developers continue to ignore you?
As far as Cortanya's answer, all he did was show me that people still play UO, EVE and Shadowbane. I knew that already. Those examples aren't an accurate representation of the hardcore PvP population simply because we can't be sure of the actual reasons for people playing those games. For example a simple reason could be: Shadowbane is free to play, EVE has a lot more going for it than hardcore PvP, which by the way is softened by insurance and clones and whatnot, and UO was the one of the first MMORPGs out there and is still considered one of the greatest by many, myself included. Both UO and EVE bring a whole lot more to the table than hardcore PvP, thus, I would consider claiming that all of the people play these games because of hardcore PvP as wrong. I cannot comment on Shadowbane because I never played it.
I appologize eventhough I live in the USA, I am originaly from Kiev, Ukraine and as such my command of the English language might not be as good as yours. However, I chose to answer the parts of your posts that I considered relevant to the discussion and tried to leave out the parts where you attempted to belittle me with your weak attempts at witty sarcasm.
To make the long story short, seek therapy. Seriously. If you cannot find a way to answer a post without resorting to insults, you might have a problem. No matter if you think that your points are valid, insults don't help them in any way. Anyway, I realize that it can be hard living with cooped up anger and no way to release it but there are treatments for that now.
Congratulations, dumbass. In one smooth move you managed to both misrepresent my argument, and accuse me of doing the very same thing I called you out for.
I never once said UO, EVE, Shadowbane players played solely for hardcore PvP. I stated numerous times that they represent players compatible with a hardcore PvP game. JTFC, learn to read.
And I recall nariusseldon as well as yourself claiming all 10 million of WoW's subscribers play soley for its softcore PvP system.
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
Because a hardcore PvP game must be simplistic, and can by no means be as complex as EVE, right?
Does it occur to you that many hardcore PvP proponents want hardcore PvP as a means to add meaning to the rich political, territorial, and economic aspects of gameplay, just like EVE?
And just how many hardcore PvP proponents are you talking about? You and who else? You're throwing numbers around saying that some people are compatible with free PvP, but these same people can be considered compatible with any other feature that these games have. Again, just because people play UO, EVE and Shadowbane does not meant that they enjoy free PvP. It's an assumption on your part just like me using 10 million WoW players was an assumption on my part.
I would still like an answer to why do you think that game developers are ingoring your demographic. I mean if you claim to be profitable then developers would be stupid not to cash in, right?
You seem to have a decent grasp of English grammar and mechanics. My beef with you is your apparent failure in logic.
However, this may be a result of your inability to fully understand what I'm saying or trying to say. If this is the case, then fine. I'll retract some of my insults, and say you're not as dumb as I thought you were.
Regardless of what your first language is, that's a dumb attitude.
What's more important, the truth, or people's feelings?
No. I don't have to sprinkle insults into my responses. I do anyway. That's just what I do.
Dismissing logically valid arguments backed up by evidence soley because of a few insults tacked on to them? Why? Do insults make an argument any less valid? Does a false veneer of Miss Manners stick-up-the-ass protocol make anything more valid?
True, an argument based on insults is invalid, but this is the equivalent of me saying "2 + 2 = 4, and you suck". And you replying with "2 + 2 does not = 4, because you insulted me.)
I notice this entire post did not attempt to respond to anything I previously said, just complaining about me being mean. How bout that.
If this is some kind of weakass lame insult attempt, I'm prepared to fire up the flamethrowers and return fire.
I'll chalk it up to culture clash, if you seriously think I'm sitting here with high blood pressure shouting at the keyboard.
My primary state of mind here has been amusement. I'm laughing as I'm typing these. It's fun arguing with people online and trying to prove them wrong, and trying to prove you're cleverer, and insulting them and laughing at them.
I'm not trolling - trolling would be posting nonsense just to piss people off. I'm at least somewhat serious, but I'm just here having fun, waiting for some good games to come out. This is stress relief, not stress inducing.
PS - I'm not even deliberately trying to be excessively insulting or controversial. I save that for when I want to get banned from religious or political online communities.
In any case, let's not get side tracked.
The following are my claims:
1. "Hardcore" PvP is defined as a player vs. player environment in which artificial restrictions on engaging in player vs. player combat are relaxed or removed. "Hardcore PvP" also features full or partial item loot on death, as part of a "zero sum" philosopy. For there to be a meaningful winner, there must also be a loser. Most descriptions of proposed "Hardcore PvP" are reminiscient of old school Felucca UO.
2. A population exists that actively wishes to play a Hardcore PvP game. The Darkfall Online forums have 50k registered users. The game has no planned release date, but thousands are anticipating the concept. Countless websites, forums, and blogs feature individual players reminiscing about the "old school UO days", and eagerly awaiting a new UO-esque game. The community is out there.
3. A larger population exists that is compatible with a hardcore PvP environment. This population exists in UO shards, Shadowbane, EVE Online, and a number of other PvP games.
Runescape is massively popular among younger gamers for its simplicity, accessibility, and very low system requirements. Until very recently, it featured full loot PvP in large sections of the map. A recent poll found that 70% of all players engaged in some form of PvP (not counting consensual dueling).
Obviously, the mere presence of hardcore PvP does not spell the kiss of death for a number of reasonably popular games.
4. Hardcore PvP is a mechanic that stands on its own. It is but one factor in a game's design, neither mutually exclusive or inclusive of other features such as: twitch FPS combat, gear based, skill based, territory conquest, sandbox MMO, sandbox open economy, etc.
None of the above are mandatory in the definition of Hardcore PvP. They are seperate game design elements.
EVE features hardcore PvP. It has territory conquest, but not twitch combat. Runescape features somewhat hardcore PvP, but does not have territory conquest.
5. While certain gameplay characteristics mentioned above do not necessarily form the description of hardcore PvP, some of them work well with hardcore PvP better than others.
For example, most Western hardcore PvP games place less emphasis on gear, and generally more emphasis on either character skills that cannot be lost, or player skills independant of the character.
EVE gear is not as gamebreaking as WoW gear. And if you keep your clone up to date, you don't lose your skills. Runescape gear is quite important, but relatively easy to obtain.
Some Eastern hardcore PvP MMOs feature a large emphasis on gear, with an extreme grinding curve. Obviously, this is quite unpopular in Western gaming culture. Nobody wants to get stabbed cause you stole their Dragon Sword.
Hardcore PvP tends to be compatible with the "sandbox" style game, with an open economy, and with open territorial and political conquest. What do hardcore PvPers want in their games? Not merely "BOOM HEADSHOT!". They want the more meaningful player interaction possible as a result of players having real power to affect the world and each other.
(Note that I am not claiming a sandbox game MUST feature hardcore PvP to be successful. A game like Second Life features no PvP at all.)
6. A game does not have to be as "good" (stable, polished, well supported) as WoW to be successful.
Blizzard has the resources and experience to keep their game running smoothly. EQ and LOTRO, similar to WoW, feature populations in the hundreds of thousands. SWG, maligned for their poor customer support, still sports 150k or so players. Vanguard, by all rights a buggy and rushed game, still has a population of 50k or so.
7. A game does not have to have WoW's subscriber numbers to be successful.
The closest competitor to WoW on the horizon is WAR. In interviews, lead developers stated WoW's 10m count was "a one shot deal", and they'd "be happy with 1 million". Imagine that, one of the biggest names in MMO games is aiming for 1 million. If they hit it, they'd be the first western MMO to do so. Since WoW.
Average MMO games do not pull in 10 million people. Average MMO games do not pull in 1 million people. Games with more than 100k can be considered "mainstream".
Do you have a problem with any of the above? Then prove me wrong, with logic and evidence. Hop to it.
Bullshit.
Let's go over this again, slowly.
You said:
"WoW has 10 million players. All 10 million WoW players will never play a hardcore PvP game."
Can you not see the failure in logic there? Here's a hint: I play WoW. I would play a hardcore PvP game.
And here's what I said:
"UO, Shadowbane, and EVE have a lot of players. Each of those players represents a player who would be willing to play in a game featuring hardcore PvP."
Had I claimed "everyone who plays UO/EVE/Shadowbane plays for PvP", I'd be just as WRONG as you. Lucky I never made that claim, huh?
JTFC.
I'll give you a dollar if you can point to where I claim developers are "ignoring" my demographic. Previous posters in the topic may or may not have, but I never did.
All I've done is proven that the demographic exists. If game developers for whatever reason are choosing not to market to that demographic at this time, what's that got to do with me? I'm not a games dev.
My goal was solely to 1)prove the hardcore PvP demographic exists, 2) refute and insult illogical and invalid responses to the same.
I never made claims as to developers' states of mind or intentions, nor did I attempt to offer theories regarding what types of games they choose to develop.
My point was to show that eventhough the hardcore PvP demographic exists, it is not big enough for most AAA development houses to bother with.
50-50? LOL .. may be 50-50 for the active poster on a small website.
Just check the pop of PvP vs PvE servers on any major MMO and you will see PvE outnumber PvP by a LARGE margin.
First of all thats not true, second of all did I say this post or did I say every mmo out there, l2read. imo todays pvp servers are weak and hardly pvp servers anyways.
I ask for someone to make a poll about hardcore pvp and I get trolled, I didn't know having an opinion was wrong.
I know my crowd for pvp is not as numerous as the dull "wow model" crowd, but I know we are profitable nonetheless. Anyone who argues that is shitting themselves.
Sure, there is one game for hardcore Pvpers ... Eve Online. And I am sure it is profitable.
Good lucky finding another.
WoW's PvP does not transfer. PvP in WoW is a cool down session, a hobby, and cool down.
the fact that WoW's PvP servers make up over half the servers just proves that people want to do as much as possible in a MMO. NOT that they want a game that focuses on PvP*.
do realize these are games, and that game is mentioned directly inside the genres title.
_________________________
As for me I just live with PvP, it's just a requirement(one that has to drift towards being 'hardcore') for player control worlds in order to balance them.
I mean seriously if you want this so called 'hardcore' PvP as far as I care you shouldn't be playing a game with it. It really doesn't add any meaning to the game if other mechanics aren't there, in other words you want an utter crap game designed around PvP instead of a game that's well designed.
*especially your prereq's for being 'real' PvP.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
And polls on this site will be accurate because?
I dunno know the percentage of the world population who wants a "true pvp" game. However, a) that would NOT be me, and b) there are at least 10M people would not want it.
What is your point? Do you actually read posts on the forums or do you just skim through looking for one that you can utter your "WoW has 10 million subscribers, all of them obviously hate open PvP and only want to play casual MMO's". People on both sides of the arguement have mades some good points. WoW is very successful and does hold a lot of subscribers, but have you ever thought that maybe a lot of them only play because it because there is nothing really out there right now and it is just something to pass the time? I currently play WoW, along with 10 other friends. We don't play because it fits exactly what we want. We (my group of friends and I) are playing to pass the time until something better (our opinions) comes out. Right now we are waiting to play AoC, but we would all love to play a free loot, class-less, level-less, sandbox type game. Do you think it is possible that a large portion of WoW subscribers are doing the same thing? I talk to tons of people in game that say they are only playing until ______ releases. For real, WoW is like *insert popular band/musical artist that everyone listens to but they really aren't all that talented here*. Some listen because they actually like it. Some listen because its what some of their friends are doing. Some listen because it is easy to access (on TV and radio all the time), and others because they just don't know what else is out there and its the only thing they've listened to. These "artists" make a lot of money, largely dude to the fact that their managers are marketing geniouses. Hanah Montana tickets were selling for wat, 1,500 bucks or something like that? I don't think I'm alone in saying that there are much more talented musicians out there who are less popular. WoW is similar to this in a lot of ways.
That all said, I would gladly embrace an MMORPG that contains open-loot, FFA PvP.
And polls on this site will be accurate because?
I dunno know the percentage of the world population who wants a "true pvp" game. However, a) that would NOT be me, and b) there are at least 10M people would not want it.
What is your point? Do you actually read posts on the forums or do you just skim through looking for one that you can utter your "WoW has 10 million subscribers, all of them obviously hate open PvP and only want to play casual MMO's". People on both sides of the arguement have mades some good points. WoW is very successful and does hold a lot of subscribers, but have you ever thought that maybe a lot of them only play because it because there is nothing really out there right now and it is just something to pass the time? I currently play WoW, along with 10 other friends. We don't play because it fits exactly what we want. We (my group of friends and I) are playing to pass the time until something better (our opinions) comes out. Right now we are waiting to play AoC, but we would all love to play a free loot, class-less, level-less, sandbox type game. Do you think it is possible that a large portion of WoW subscribers are doing the same thing? I talk to tons of people in game that say they are only playing until ______ releases. For real, WoW is like *insert popular band/musical artist that everyone listens to but they really aren't all that talented here*. Some listen because they actually like it. Some listen because its what some of their friends are doing. Some listen because it is easy to access (on TV and radio all the time), and others because they just don't know what else is out there and its the only thing they've listened to. These "artists" make a lot of money, largely dude to the fact that their managers are marketing geniouses. Hanah Montana tickets were selling for wat, 1,500 bucks or something like that? I don't think I'm alone in saying that there are much more talented musicians out there who are less popular. WoW is similar to this in a lot of ways.
That all said, I would gladly embrace an MMORPG that contains open-loot, FFA PvP.
Open-loot, FFA PvP has been tried (UO in the beginning) and it has failed miserably in the marketplace.
Sure, to find your niche game. Just don't expect a huge following.
Sure, there may be many reasons why there are so many people playing WOW. But have you considered that they may be doing something right and found the preferences of the many? It is not like they don't have competition when they started.
And polls on this site will be accurate because?
I dunno know the percentage of the world population who wants a "true pvp" game. However, a) that would NOT be me, and b) there are at least 10M people would not want it.
What is your point? Do you actually read posts on the forums or do you just skim through looking for one that you can utter your "WoW has 10 million subscribers, all of them obviously hate open PvP and only want to play casual MMO's". People on both sides of the arguement have mades some good points. WoW is very successful and does hold a lot of subscribers, but have you ever thought that maybe a lot of them only play because it because there is nothing really out there right now and it is just something to pass the time? I currently play WoW, along with 10 other friends. We don't play because it fits exactly what we want. We (my group of friends and I) are playing to pass the time until something better (our opinions) comes out. Right now we are waiting to play AoC, but we would all love to play a free loot, class-less, level-less, sandbox type game. Do you think it is possible that a large portion of WoW subscribers are doing the same thing? I talk to tons of people in game that say they are only playing until ______ releases. For real, WoW is like *insert popular band/musical artist that everyone listens to but they really aren't all that talented here*. Some listen because they actually like it. Some listen because its what some of their friends are doing. Some listen because it is easy to access (on TV and radio all the time), and others because they just don't know what else is out there and its the only thing they've listened to. These "artists" make a lot of money, largely dude to the fact that their managers are marketing geniouses. Hanah Montana tickets were selling for wat, 1,500 bucks or something like that? I don't think I'm alone in saying that there are much more talented musicians out there who are less popular. WoW is similar to this in a lot of ways.
That all said, I would gladly embrace an MMORPG that contains open-loot, FFA PvP.
Open-loot, FFA PvP has been tried (UO in the beginning) and it has failed miserably in the marketplace.
Sure, to find your niche game. Just don't expect a huge following.
Sure, there may be many reasons why there are so many people playing WOW. But have you considered that they may be doing something right and found the preferences of the many? It is not like they don't have competition when they started.
Actually most of that 10 million people are new to MMO's and all they have played is WoW so in reality very few of that 10 mil have even tried out different game styles let alone heard of them. Not that there choice of MMO doesant count its just that compared to the minority that has tried several MMO's and therefore different styles are pretty uninformed in comparison.
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981