I liked the post. But i cant reply on the official DF forum. But one thing im a bit worried about: soem players mix up FFA PvP with griefing, ganking and noob killing. And yes we see that alot in.....WoW. In a FFA PvP MMO without classes and levels, there are no noobs. A new character can kill of a veteran character. In example woW, you have NO chance of defending yourself from a high level character. And that seems to be ok? But be able to defend.....thats not ok??
The carebear mind is truly puzzling. (Great questioning there I must say Daarco.)
....
Are you stupid? Nothing he said was "carebear" at all you tool. I do not care how "well done" Darkfall is about the power difference between vets and noobs. Either there IS progression, or there isn't. If there IS progression then those players whom have "progressed" will have a very distinct advantage. It doesn't take an army of griefers to ruin the game, it takes only a handful. New players are going to be wanting to get a handle on the mechanics of a new game...and griefers do nothing but ruin that learning moment for them.
Unless Darkfall is nothing more THAN a PvP game anyway. I mean, if its built like Fury then that rough learning curve would be okay. But since there is so much more the new players have to learn and do than just kill people...its BAD. Basically, truly FFA PvP games are only good for those whom start when the game releases. Any new players are going to be cock blocked by the one or two tools that gank them nonstop and will tire of even trying. His point was very valid for this. I love PvP, more than anything. I didn't pay UO for the very reason I mentioned. I couldn't even walk out of town in that game, because each gate of every town was camped by gankers.
FFA PvP honestly doesn't work. The only reason EVE can do it now is because there are great community additions to HELP the new player. Oh, and there are more secure zones as well. EVE has a corp made JUST for new players to jump in and learn from. It took years for them to build that kind of community too. To top it all off...they had offline skill building. So even if you really couldn't compete...if you just left it skill building offline while you did something else you could come back later and compete more easily. IN games where all of the progression MUST be done at the PC, the new player is forced to endure the ganker cock block while all of the vets on the server got to progress on equal footing with their opponents. Its BS, it will never appeal to anyone. True FFA players already have invested in other FFA games that are light years ahead in their personal communities to support it.
Well, I am a member of those forums and I don't have sufficient priveleges to respond to it where you posted. I read your post. FFA PVP is fun and it seems like you're against it because you're afraid the world will slip into chaos or you'll get ganked. But what you're missing is that FFAPVP adds a huge sense of immersion to the game. I could go on, but I think many of my points will be lost on you (not an insult, it just seems like you have a totally different play style and you can't appreciate what you don't know.) - Phos
Completely false. I'm not at all against FFA PvP.
I just believe that FFA PvP doesn't have to be about ganking/griefing others.
Think about it this way...
Say you and your guild role play as a band of marauding Orcs. It's perfectly acceptable (and within the game rules) for you to go around slaughtering everyone that you come across.
But what's different in a MMO is that the helpless people you are slaughtering are other players.
It's like watching a movie, you don't care if the Orcs slaughter some nameless villagers, but you sure do care if they kill off one of the Heroes.
In a MMO, we all want to be Heroes, we want to be Heroes in all the games we play.
It's not fun to be the nameless villager, but that is what we start out as in a MMO. It takes a while to become a Hero. That's really want the RPG part of MMORPG is about, becoming a Hero.
And it's really hard to become a Hero if every time you go outside your village, some *sshole Orc kills you for no reason other then the fact that you were there.
That, is why total unrestricted FFA PvP does not work in MMOs.
FFA Guild vs. Guild and FFA Faction vs. Faction are and should be enough FFA for anyone.
That way your band of Orcs can slaughter all the people you want, as long as they are part of the faction/guild in opposition to you. They are just some random villager anymore, they are the enemy. The real enemy. There is HONOR in killing them.
Anyone who wants to go out and kill random noobs for fun is a pathetic coward, and nothing anyone will ever say will change my mind on that.
Take away the ability to randomly kill some lowbie, some poor shmuck crafting or killing monsters, and you can still very easily have your immersion, your epic, bloody, perpetual conflict, but you don't have to ruin the game for someone else at the same time.
Well, I am a member of those forums and I don't have sufficient priveleges to respond to it where you posted. I read your post. FFA PVP is fun and it seems like you're against it because you're afraid the world will slip into chaos or you'll get ganked. But what you're missing is that FFAPVP adds a huge sense of immersion to the game. I could go on, but I think many of my points will be lost on you (not an insult, it just seems like you have a totally different play style and you can't appreciate what you don't know.) - Phos
Completely false. I'm not at all against FFA PvP.
I just believe that FFA PvP doesn't have to be about ganking/griefing others.
Think about it this way...
Say you and your guild role play as a band of marauding Orcs. It's perfectly acceptable (and within the game rules) for you to go around slaughtering everyone that you come across.
But what's different in a MMO is that the helpless people you are slaughtering are other players.
It's like watching a movie, you don't care if the Orcs slaughter some nameless villagers, but you sure do care if they kill off one of the Heroes.
In a MMO, we all want to be Heroes, we want to be Heroes in all the games we play.
It's not fun to be the nameless villager, but that is what we start out as in a MMO. It takes a while to become a Hero. That's really want the RPG part of MMORPG is about, becoming a Hero.
And it's really hard to become a Hero if every time you go outside your village, some *sshole Orc kills you for no reason other then the fact that you were there.
That, is why total unrestricted FFA PvP does not work in MMOs.
FFA Guild vs. Guild and FFA Faction vs. Faction are and should be enough FFA for anyone.
That way your band of Orcs can slaughter all the people you want, as long as they are part of the faction/guild in opposition to you. They are just some random villager anymore, they are the enemy. The real enemy. There is HONOR in killing them.
Anyone who wants to go out and kill random noobs for fun is a pathetic coward, and nothing anyone will ever say will change my mind on that.
Take away the ability to randomly kill some lowbie, some poor shmuck crafting or killing monsters, and you can still very easily have your immersion, your epic, bloody, perpetual conflict, but you don't have to ruin the game for someone else at the same time.
You're wrong about everyone wanting to be the Hero. There are a lot of people out there that want to be the Villain. Some people thrive on the struggle between good an evil. If you want to play a FFA PvP game, you have to accept that you could be entering a world that, at times, could be a little unfair. You might have to adapt to get around certain situations. If you go into an environment that you know could be cruel, then you complain when it is cruel, that is your fault.
While I agree that it is pathetic to kill players who pose no threat, games that support this tend to lean towards the realistic aspects of life. Some things aren't entirely fair. If you leave the protection of a town, you are subject to getting whacked. That is why there is progression. Today, you have the ability to call a GM on someone who is obviously targeting you out and harassing you. One day, if you work hard enough, you'll be able to compete due to level or skill caps, and you'll have your laugh when you kill that player who use to pick on you all the time.
The problem with people today is that they are too lazy. They want everything handed to them. If it is an inconvenience, screw working hard to overcome it, they just complain until they get their way. FFA PvP games have worked and can still work. As a company, you can't create the game based solely on the idea of getting to kill other players though. It has to have depth, it has to appeal everyone.
It seems like you have too often been the one getting ganked. Seems to me there is much repressed anger towards player killers. Very rarely do you ever see people in newbie towns killing all of the people learning the game. Most games don't allow that to happen.
FFA PvP doesn't work well in MMORPG's. It works perfectly fine in games like BF2 and Quake3 etc because everyone is on a level playing field.
Umm...
I hate to say it...
but DUH
I think it's pretty obvious he's talking about MMOs
this is MMORPG.com after all
But the statement is important, and it is the very same statement draaco wanted to point out. Everyone should be almost the same level, and therefore the progression should be just very small. It was a little bit in UO like this, if you skilled up decent 5-7 skills to around 70-80 you could more or less compete with everyone. And Darkfall is trying to do the same, at least concept wise. You can progress the first few skill points very fast, and compete with it with almost everyone.. to master every skill would on the other hand take ages.. but the advantage of it is not as huge.
Look at BF2, there are also some progression, in form of the new weapons you are able to get, especially the Special Forces AddOn weapons are really better than the standard one. But on the other side, the advantage is not huge enough, that a good player(player skill wise) can beat another player with the advanced weapons.
And so a newcomer have from the very beginning the chance to survive, and kill his attackers. Of course, he will not in the beginning, because not only the skill advantage is important, but also how to use it, and knowledge about the environment. But he will be able to learn quite fast and compete then.. as in any FPS or RTS game, too. And in my humble opinion this is a important part of a ffa pvp mmorpg.
On the other side mmorpgs need some form of progression, would it a rpg without it? But, the progression should be in other forms, not really the abilitiy to fight against each other. The progression should be much more in wealth, in reputation, or in influence(think about clans controlling different cities and location all over the world, or controll resource spots and so on). Withit everyone has a feeling of progression in a roleplaying manner, but without to imbalance it in the fighting field, and make it almost impossible for newcomers to come into the world.. and it will also avoid a lot of frustration.
And exact the same about Items, they should not really improve your character.. a plate mail is a plate mail, but some look different, maybe have a legend story to it, and are quite rare or anything else to make them something special, and interesting to get them.. but in the end it is just a plate mail and as good as from the local craftsmen.
But nowadays everything is about instant gratification, and well, it is simpler to give them shiny powerfull items and level to make them something special(even if everyone get it and is special with it.. after years of useless wasting of playtime.. or nobody), instead of let grow them slowly and let them get special because what they have afforded.. or not.
You're wrong about everyone wanting to be the Hero. There are a lot of people out there that want to be the Villain. Some people thrive on the struggle between good an evil. If you want to play a FFA PvP game, you have to accept that you could be entering a world that, at times, could be a little unfair. You might have to adapt to get around certain situations. If you go into an environment that you know could be cruel, then you complain when it is cruel, that is your fault.
While I agree that it is pathetic to kill players who pose no threat, games that support this tend to lean towards the realistic aspects of life. Some things aren't entirely fair. If you leave the protection of a town, you are subject to getting whacked. That is why there is progression. Today, you have the ability to call a GM on someone who is obviously targeting you out and harassing you. One day, if you work hard enough, you'll be able to compete due to level or skill caps, and you'll have your laugh when you kill that player who use to pick on you all the time.
The problem with people today is that they are too lazy. They want everything handed to them. If it is an inconvenience, screw working hard to overcome it, they just complain until they get their way. FFA PvP games have worked and can still work. As a company, you can't create the game based solely on the idea of getting to kill other players though. It has to have depth, it has to appeal everyone.
It seems like you have too often been the one getting ganked. Seems to me there is much repressed anger towards player killers.
Completely wrong again
I never left town after the first day I started playing UO until Trammel was released. I was only ganked a few times. I used the random monster attacks on Brittania to level up my skills and make some money. Even after the Trammel/Felluca split, I started playing on the hardcore server, Siege Perilous, as a PK. And once they came out with Factions PvP, I spent most of my time in Felucca.
The one thing you are TOTALLY wrong about is people being lazy. It's not that people want everything handed to them, it's not that they want to avoid inconvenience, it's not that they don't want to work hard, it's that we DON'T want to do everything knuckles dragging kicking and screaming on fire being chased by rabid dogs and zombies in Helicoptors jumping hurdles and through rings of fire.
Know what I mean?
I don't want a game that resembles real life. I want a game that is a game. Trammel/Felluca split made UO a game worth playing. I also love PvP, both instanced fair match-making style and the open world more chaotic variety.
Being able to compete in a game shouldn't be about having to work hard to get somewhere. It's a game, not a job. I work hard enough at the gym, at my job, in my personal life etc. I don't want to have to work hard at a game in order to be competitive. Hence why I really don't like how item-centric games have become. Item centric ruins PvP. It becomes about work, not competition.
Of course people don't all want to be the Hero, some want to be the Villian. But it's a multiplayer game. What kind of villian only preys on the weak and those who cannot defend themselves? A cowardly one.
Originally posted by heerobya What kind of villian only preys on the weak and those who cannot defend themselves? A cowardly one.
I think this is important to remember. One doesn't have to prey on the weak in order to be a "bad guy." There are plenty of other ways to get the "good guys" riled up without harrassing new players.
Originally posted by DAS1337 Very rarely do you ever see people in newbie towns killing all of the people learning the game. Most games don't allow that to happen.
Another important statement, which begs the question: if given the tools at level 1 to defend themselves against a level 70, would WoW players even know what to do? I would be willing to bet that they are so programmed into "level 70 = instant loss" that even if they stood a pretty good chance at winning, they would still run away. I'm not saying it's their fault, since Blizzard is the one who decided this was a good mechanic to have, but we need to break out of this mold and let newbies have some fun, too.
OK, some players have been burned in some other MMOs. Lets wait and see how (if) it will be done in Darkfall. And one little thing many seems to forget: FFA PvP is just a feature...you dont need to do, because you can. You have a choice.
OK, some players have been burned in some other MMOs. Lets wait and see how (if) it will be done in Darkfall. And one little thing many seems to forget: FFA PvP is just a feature...you dont need to do, because you can. You have a choice.
But if I choose not to PvP, and someone doesn't respect that choice and comes and ganks me, then they have taken away my freedom of choice.
Hence, why many do not like non-consensual PvP in MMOs.
Sandbox games and FFA games are great because they give you choices, unfortunately some of these choices allow you remove another players choice.
Some seem to very much enjoy removing another players freedom of choice, but apparently the majority would rather retain their freedom of choice, and thus they choose games were they don't have to worry about someone forcing their playstyle on them.
And how often has the justification been "I did it because I could do it?" You see another player going about his business doing whatever, and it looks like he's got a shiny new Axe. This is one of those situations where the Devil pops up on one shoulder and the Angel on the other.
The thing that keeps most of us listening to the Angel in real life is consequence. But online, where no one knows who you really are unless you want them to, what consequence matters enough to keep you from wanting the shiny new Axe?
True, you do have a choice. A choice to allow others their freedom of choice, or a choice to take that right away from someone else.
Many will make the choice to simply not even bother and not play a game like Darkfall. Yes, the FFA PvP is just a feature, but it is one whose scope and bredth effect every aspect of the game, every other feature.
Lets cut to the chase here: You can choose to not PvP in a FFA PvP MMO. But you dont get it for free. Thats the whole point in a sandbox MMO. You can do whatever you want....but none will just give it to you.
The player that fails to understand this.....will in the end try to blame the game for them not having fun. And by doing that, only look very misinformed.
Example: you dont want to PvP, then stay out of dangerous places and always try to have friends around. And PvP dont just mean combat.....merchants must trade with other players...business PvP, then we have diplomatic and political PvP.....and those are just as fun as the combat PvP.
I have played Lineage 2, EVE and Shadowbane..and i have never had any trouble with PK. Only when i tryed WoW did i get greifed and PKed.....so that shows MMOs without FFA PvP doesnt work. Some people cant handle the power of a "high level" character.
Skill based advancement isn't the total end all answer to the noob vs. veteran debate. Skill based advancement is really the exact same as levels. Skill based combat, i.e. twitch mechanics do go a long way in helping to even the balance between noob and vet. And I am going to put my post on the DF general forums once i can
Ah but the issue here is that in making it more "skill based" you are moving the game away from the MMORPG genre. Even still, there is the matter of time spent using that skill and getting better with handling the mechanics of the game which noobs won't have. Furthermore, the skill issue dies the moment any form of progression is present in the game at all. Whether level based, or skill point based, progression ensures that BESIDES the natural use skill advantage that vets will have just from being more familiar with the mechanics...they will ALSO have a statistical lead. It actually compounds the problem with more problems rather than alleviate either one.
Player loot = death for the game. Anyone who truly wants to make a sandbox MMO that is Blockbuster at this point is going to accept that. EVE spent years getting the players it has...and it ONLY has them because it finally developed the community to support it. There is no need to loot the player to enjoy FFA PvP.
That wasn't an attack at you, by the way. I realize you say the same things I do in your blog. I only mentioned it for anyone else reading.
Lets cut to the chase here: You can choose to not PvP in a FFA PvP MMO. But you dont get it for free. Thats the whole point in a sandbox MMO. You can do whatever you want....but none will just give it to you. The player that fails to understand this.....will in the end try to blame the game for them not having fun. And by doing that, only look very misinformed. Example: you dont want to PvP, then stay out of dangerous places and always try to have friends around. And PvP dont just mean combat.....merchants must trade with other players...business PvP, then we have diplomatic and political PvP.....and those are just as fun as the combat PvP. I have played Lineage 2, EVE and Shadowbane..and i have never had any trouble with PK. Only when i tryed WoW did i get greifed and PKed.....so that shows MMOs without FFA PvP doesnt work. Some people cant handle the power of a "high level" character.
In every FFA PvP game I have ever played there was no such "dangerous" zone. In every case I logged into a game where I IMMEDIATELY was hunted and killed by player after player until I realized I could never get ahead because I spent more time running to try and salvage some of the meager items I had instead of actually progressing.
You are a fool to suggest otherwise. It does not take an army of gankers to ruin this game type...it takes only a handful. Experience has shown me that, more often than not, FAR more than a handful participate in this. They do so because it is easy, and it is profitable. They are veteran players who got the luxury of progressing WITHOUT that problem, and are those whom do not wish to lose anything hunting other vets. Instead they abuse the noobs for cheap easy loot because losing sucks.
Its a stupid ideal, and it ruins that game for anyone who does not play from the day the servers open. Only one game has ever done it successfully and that game has ways to help noobs.
Originally posted by heerobya Skill based advancement isn't the total end all answer to the noob vs. veteran debate. Skill based advancement is really the exact same as levels.
This is like saying "money is really the exact same as currency." That's because it is a sub-system within the "leveling" mechanic. Just as money is a TYPE of currency, skill-based advancement is a TYPE of leveling. The difference is that in a class-based system, you're stuck with your class, and ONLY with your class. With a skill-based system, I can invest in healing and tanking and DPS as much (or as little) as I want to, and it won't affect my other abilities (short of a hard-cap on total levels).
Anyone who thinks skill-based advancement is not the same as leveling clearly doesn't understand either term.
Skill based advancement isn't the total end all answer to the noob vs. veteran debate.
Skill based advancement is really the exact same as levels.
This is like saying "money is really the exact same as currency."
Nobody was saying it isn't. That's because... it is the exact same as leveling. The difference is that in a class-based system, you're stuck with your class, and ONLY with your class. With a skill-based system, I can invest in healing and tanking and DPS as much (or as little) as I want to, and it won't affect my other abilities (short of a hard-cap on total levels).
Anyone who thinks skill-based advancement is not the same as leveling clearly doesn't understand either term.
You can call both "Empowering Progression".
In either case, the player moves ahead and becomes stronger than he was before.
Skill based advancement isn't the total end all answer to the noob vs. veteran debate.
Skill based advancement is really the exact same as levels.
This is like saying "money is really the exact same as currency."
Nobody was saying it isn't. That's because... it is the exact same as leveling. The difference is that in a class-based system, you're stuck with your class, and ONLY with your class. With a skill-based system, I can invest in healing and tanking and DPS as much (or as little) as I want to, and it won't affect my other abilities (short of a hard-cap on total levels).
Anyone who thinks skill-based advancement is not the same as leveling clearly doesn't understand either term.
You can call both "Empowering Progression".
In either case, the player moves ahead and becomes stronger than he was before.
Correct.
Only difference is that in most skill based systems, you are allowed to choose your set of skills, where as in a class base game you choose an archetype and get the skills that archetype possesses.
You still have choice, actually in most skill games people end up mimicking classes anyway, funny enough, but just having the choice to do something different is a good thing.
Lets cut to the chase here: You can choose to not PvP in a FFA PvP MMO. But you dont get it for free. Thats the whole point in a sandbox MMO. You can do whatever you want....but none will just give it to you. The player that fails to understand this.....will in the end try to blame the game for them not having fun. And by doing that, only look very misinformed. Example: you dont want to PvP, then stay out of dangerous places and always try to have friends around. And PvP dont just mean combat.....merchants must trade with other players...business PvP, then we have diplomatic and political PvP.....and those are just as fun as the combat PvP. I have played Lineage 2, EVE and Shadowbane..and i have never had any trouble with PK. Only when i tryed WoW did i get greifed and PKed.....so that shows MMOs without FFA PvP doesnt work. Some people cant handle the power of a "high level" character.
I understand your point and appreciate the response, however I just have to disagree.
First off, when talking about PvP you know we are talking about combat between players, not ecnomics and politics...
You are right, you can choose to not PvP in a FFA PvP MMO.
But because it is a FFA PvP MMO, it does NOT guarantee that someone else will not choose to PvP you.
It's like saying you can go to war and choose not to fight, but people can still attack and kill you if they choose.
From my experience, "Staying out of dangerous places" means you never leave town and stick close to any Guard/Patrol NPCs.
EVE is a LOT different and barely FFA PvP in comparison to classic UO. EVE is plenty of rules and restrictions, both social and game system mechanics that make EVE barely FFA.
You say that we should bring friends and avoid dangerous areas.
So you are saying that I need to change my play style and adapt how I play because some other jerk wants to ruin my day?
I'll pass, thanks. I'd rather play a game where I could play however I wanted to, but with an understanding that everyone else has the RIGHT and RESPONSIBILITY as paying customers to play how they want to.
I don't imagine you'll see a long line of subscribers lining up to be innocent victims.
If two players choose to battle each other, sweet. May the best man/women win.
Let's say you have a MMORPG with 1,000 players. If 500 player choose to attack other players, but that second group of 500 players wants nothing to do with the first, 50% of your subscribers aren't paying for a product that is allowing them to do what they want.
Which means eventually 50% of your subscribers will quit.
Which means the other 50% have just lost their target practice, and they'll probably soon quit. Gankers/Griefers don't find it too fun when the tables are turned and people start ganking/griefing them.
The stories of the guy/gal who is ganked by a PK and then spending all this time/effort to build their strength and get even?
Yeah, cool stories. Very Rocky Balboa. Very American "we can overcome any obstacle!"
But how many people get to be that Hero? For that one person to be a Hero, how many people have to be innocent victims first?
So some Detective gets a medal and key to the city for catching a mass murderer who raped and killed 15 people. Hurray! We're so happy!
But wouldn't it be better if those 15 people hadn't been raped and killed in the first place?
if osme jerk was tryign to kill you just kill him if your a good player you shouldnt have a problem
the pk probly wont be nowhere as bad as like shadowbane because level makes more diffrence than skill based ever will well swg precu kinda had templates you can mix it wasnt trully skilled based
and if the alignmeant system works the way its suppose to that will help alot
I think most of you must read up about the alignmentsystem.
______________________________ The Sceptics, yes they're special but we've need them to.. I guess. And if they're put more effort MMORPG.com can create a 'Team Sceptic' and send them to the Special Olympus.
Darkfall is not exactly FFA, it has an alignment system in place so if you decide to kill someone of your own race you get an alignment hit and if you do that too many times you will not only turn blood eye RED to the rest of your race but the town and city guards will attack you on sight. Also remember that there is only 1 character per server so you gotta be carefull, you can't just create 10 characters and use them for griefing.
FFA PVP is possible but most of the guilds who follow that type of policy will be either Pirate or shadowy clans who have a small hidden base somewhere, it will be well defended but it also will be remote away from the major population centers of their own race that they decided to declare war against.
Darkfall is not exactly FFA, it has an alignment system in place so if you decide to kill someone of your own race you get an alignment hit and if you do that too many times you will not only turn blood eye RED to the rest of your race but the town and city guards will attack you on sight. Also remember that there is only 1 character per server so you gotta be carefull, you can't just create 10 characters and use them for griefing. FFA PVP is possible but most of the guilds who follow that type of policy will be either Pirate or shadowy clans who have a small hidden base somewhere, it will be well defended but it also will be remote away from the major population centers of their own race that they decided to declare war against.
Yup some people have to read up on the game before they have too many assumptions concerning Darkfall.
And the ones that never played a similar game, like UO, be a bit humble regarding alignment, how it will work and so on. Get some own experience, then dump it or cheerish it.
UO worked like a clock with their type of alignment system.
people say that they think the start game will be bad? i mean i think it could just be one of the best, most newbs spend all their time powergrinding LVLs, in darkfall that wont be so easy(not to mention its meant to be quick skill gaining) anyway, your going to get killed and looted in this game, you are going to make friends good ones and quickly, your going to need them. Isn't this how a game should be built? maybe im wrong
people say that they think the start game will be bad? i mean i think it could just be one of the best, most newbs spend all their time powergrinding LVLs, in darkfall that wont be so easy(not to mention its meant to be quick skill gaining) anyway, your going to get killed and looted in this game, you are going to make friends good ones and quickly, your going to need them. Isn't this how a game should be built? maybe im wrong
Nah youre right. Darkfall is a game much like real life. No carebear zones where you can stay protected. No place is 100% protected, even though the main cities of the races will be very hard to conquer.
Free For all PvP / Free For all PvP , in the context of this game is not what most people seem to think it is.
This game has PvE/PvP whatever it is not relevant wiuth the game mechanics, the mechanic is if you abuse the ability to PvP the penalty will be far too great for all but the best to play this game as they slowly but surely become outcasts.
The Faction/Alignment system will see to that.
Full Loot, okay the loot does not play the major part in this game skills do believe it or not it's a skill based game. These can be complimented by items weapons and the like but people who do not want to loose good items have the opportunitty to live in game areas that protect them. So a little inteligence and theres no problem.
This game will be perfect for non PvPers because it is all about choice.
The griefers/gankers well they always exit but only if they gain overwhelming advantage and this game will not allow that unless the player getting it, is stupid enough to put himself in that position.
The penalties for ganking new players from what I have seen will be too severe for it to be worth it.
Items will be easily replaceable to the extent of being able to play , so the real PvP will be a reputation thing not a look at all the gold and items i just looted.
This world will be of quite a size and PvP will be avoidable ... easily from what I can gather.
This should clarify for all those who love to band the Full PvP / loot All mantra... It's a little like the guys who shout rollback in game channels to get a response... someone always bites.
This game concept is great ... now lets just hope it releases...!!!!
________________________________________________________ Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
Comments
The carebear mind is truly puzzling.
....
Are you stupid? Nothing he said was "carebear" at all you tool. I do not care how "well done" Darkfall is about the power difference between vets and noobs. Either there IS progression, or there isn't. If there IS progression then those players whom have "progressed" will have a very distinct advantage. It doesn't take an army of griefers to ruin the game, it takes only a handful. New players are going to be wanting to get a handle on the mechanics of a new game...and griefers do nothing but ruin that learning moment for them.
Unless Darkfall is nothing more THAN a PvP game anyway. I mean, if its built like Fury then that rough learning curve would be okay. But since there is so much more the new players have to learn and do than just kill people...its BAD. Basically, truly FFA PvP games are only good for those whom start when the game releases. Any new players are going to be cock blocked by the one or two tools that gank them nonstop and will tire of even trying. His point was very valid for this. I love PvP, more than anything. I didn't pay UO for the very reason I mentioned. I couldn't even walk out of town in that game, because each gate of every town was camped by gankers.
FFA PvP honestly doesn't work. The only reason EVE can do it now is because there are great community additions to HELP the new player. Oh, and there are more secure zones as well. EVE has a corp made JUST for new players to jump in and learn from. It took years for them to build that kind of community too. To top it all off...they had offline skill building. So even if you really couldn't compete...if you just left it skill building offline while you did something else you could come back later and compete more easily. IN games where all of the progression MUST be done at the PC, the new player is forced to endure the ganker cock block while all of the vets on the server got to progress on equal footing with their opponents. Its BS, it will never appeal to anyone. True FFA players already have invested in other FFA games that are light years ahead in their personal communities to support it.
Completely false. I'm not at all against FFA PvP.
I just believe that FFA PvP doesn't have to be about ganking/griefing others.
Think about it this way...
Say you and your guild role play as a band of marauding Orcs. It's perfectly acceptable (and within the game rules) for you to go around slaughtering everyone that you come across.
But what's different in a MMO is that the helpless people you are slaughtering are other players.
It's like watching a movie, you don't care if the Orcs slaughter some nameless villagers, but you sure do care if they kill off one of the Heroes.
In a MMO, we all want to be Heroes, we want to be Heroes in all the games we play.
It's not fun to be the nameless villager, but that is what we start out as in a MMO. It takes a while to become a Hero. That's really want the RPG part of MMORPG is about, becoming a Hero.
And it's really hard to become a Hero if every time you go outside your village, some *sshole Orc kills you for no reason other then the fact that you were there.
That, is why total unrestricted FFA PvP does not work in MMOs.
FFA Guild vs. Guild and FFA Faction vs. Faction are and should be enough FFA for anyone.
That way your band of Orcs can slaughter all the people you want, as long as they are part of the faction/guild in opposition to you. They are just some random villager anymore, they are the enemy. The real enemy. There is HONOR in killing them.
Anyone who wants to go out and kill random noobs for fun is a pathetic coward, and nothing anyone will ever say will change my mind on that.
Take away the ability to randomly kill some lowbie, some poor shmuck crafting or killing monsters, and you can still very easily have your immersion, your epic, bloody, perpetual conflict, but you don't have to ruin the game for someone else at the same time.
FFA PvP doesn't work well in MMORPG's.
It works perfectly fine in games like BF2 and Quake3 etc because everyone is on a level playing field.
Umm...
I hate to say it...
but DUH
I think it's pretty obvious he's talking about MMOs
this is MMORPG.com after all
Completely false. I'm not at all against FFA PvP.
I just believe that FFA PvP doesn't have to be about ganking/griefing others.
Think about it this way...
Say you and your guild role play as a band of marauding Orcs. It's perfectly acceptable (and within the game rules) for you to go around slaughtering everyone that you come across.
But what's different in a MMO is that the helpless people you are slaughtering are other players.
It's like watching a movie, you don't care if the Orcs slaughter some nameless villagers, but you sure do care if they kill off one of the Heroes.
In a MMO, we all want to be Heroes, we want to be Heroes in all the games we play.
It's not fun to be the nameless villager, but that is what we start out as in a MMO. It takes a while to become a Hero. That's really want the RPG part of MMORPG is about, becoming a Hero.
And it's really hard to become a Hero if every time you go outside your village, some *sshole Orc kills you for no reason other then the fact that you were there.
That, is why total unrestricted FFA PvP does not work in MMOs.
FFA Guild vs. Guild and FFA Faction vs. Faction are and should be enough FFA for anyone.
That way your band of Orcs can slaughter all the people you want, as long as they are part of the faction/guild in opposition to you. They are just some random villager anymore, they are the enemy. The real enemy. There is HONOR in killing them.
Anyone who wants to go out and kill random noobs for fun is a pathetic coward, and nothing anyone will ever say will change my mind on that.
Take away the ability to randomly kill some lowbie, some poor shmuck crafting or killing monsters, and you can still very easily have your immersion, your epic, bloody, perpetual conflict, but you don't have to ruin the game for someone else at the same time.
You're wrong about everyone wanting to be the Hero. There are a lot of people out there that want to be the Villain. Some people thrive on the struggle between good an evil. If you want to play a FFA PvP game, you have to accept that you could be entering a world that, at times, could be a little unfair. You might have to adapt to get around certain situations. If you go into an environment that you know could be cruel, then you complain when it is cruel, that is your fault.
While I agree that it is pathetic to kill players who pose no threat, games that support this tend to lean towards the realistic aspects of life. Some things aren't entirely fair. If you leave the protection of a town, you are subject to getting whacked. That is why there is progression. Today, you have the ability to call a GM on someone who is obviously targeting you out and harassing you. One day, if you work hard enough, you'll be able to compete due to level or skill caps, and you'll have your laugh when you kill that player who use to pick on you all the time.
The problem with people today is that they are too lazy. They want everything handed to them. If it is an inconvenience, screw working hard to overcome it, they just complain until they get their way. FFA PvP games have worked and can still work. As a company, you can't create the game based solely on the idea of getting to kill other players though. It has to have depth, it has to appeal everyone.
It seems like you have too often been the one getting ganked. Seems to me there is much repressed anger towards player killers. Very rarely do you ever see people in newbie towns killing all of the people learning the game. Most games don't allow that to happen.
Umm...
I hate to say it...
but DUH
I think it's pretty obvious he's talking about MMOs
this is MMORPG.com after all
But the statement is important, and it is the very same statement draaco wanted to point out. Everyone should be almost the same level, and therefore the progression should be just very small. It was a little bit in UO like this, if you skilled up decent 5-7 skills to around 70-80 you could more or less compete with everyone. And Darkfall is trying to do the same, at least concept wise. You can progress the first few skill points very fast, and compete with it with almost everyone.. to master every skill would on the other hand take ages.. but the advantage of it is not as huge.
Look at BF2, there are also some progression, in form of the new weapons you are able to get, especially the Special Forces AddOn weapons are really better than the standard one. But on the other side, the advantage is not huge enough, that a good player(player skill wise) can beat another player with the advanced weapons.
And so a newcomer have from the very beginning the chance to survive, and kill his attackers. Of course, he will not in the beginning, because not only the skill advantage is important, but also how to use it, and knowledge about the environment. But he will be able to learn quite fast and compete then.. as in any FPS or RTS game, too. And in my humble opinion this is a important part of a ffa pvp mmorpg.
On the other side mmorpgs need some form of progression, would it a rpg without it? But, the progression should be in other forms, not really the abilitiy to fight against each other. The progression should be much more in wealth, in reputation, or in influence(think about clans controlling different cities and location all over the world, or controll resource spots and so on). Withit everyone has a feeling of progression in a roleplaying manner, but without to imbalance it in the fighting field, and make it almost impossible for newcomers to come into the world.. and it will also avoid a lot of frustration.
And exact the same about Items, they should not really improve your character.. a plate mail is a plate mail, but some look different, maybe have a legend story to it, and are quite rare or anything else to make them something special, and interesting to get them.. but in the end it is just a plate mail and as good as from the local craftsmen.
But nowadays everything is about instant gratification, and well, it is simpler to give them shiny powerfull items and level to make them something special(even if everyone get it and is special with it.. after years of useless wasting of playtime.. or nobody), instead of let grow them slowly and let them get special because what they have afforded.. or not.
Completely wrong again
I never left town after the first day I started playing UO until Trammel was released. I was only ganked a few times. I used the random monster attacks on Brittania to level up my skills and make some money. Even after the Trammel/Felluca split, I started playing on the hardcore server, Siege Perilous, as a PK. And once they came out with Factions PvP, I spent most of my time in Felucca.
The one thing you are TOTALLY wrong about is people being lazy. It's not that people want everything handed to them, it's not that they want to avoid inconvenience, it's not that they don't want to work hard, it's that we DON'T want to do everything knuckles dragging kicking and screaming on fire being chased by rabid dogs and zombies in Helicoptors jumping hurdles and through rings of fire.
Know what I mean?
I don't want a game that resembles real life. I want a game that is a game. Trammel/Felluca split made UO a game worth playing. I also love PvP, both instanced fair match-making style and the open world more chaotic variety.
Being able to compete in a game shouldn't be about having to work hard to get somewhere. It's a game, not a job. I work hard enough at the gym, at my job, in my personal life etc. I don't want to have to work hard at a game in order to be competitive. Hence why I really don't like how item-centric games have become. Item centric ruins PvP. It becomes about work, not competition.
Of course people don't all want to be the Hero, some want to be the Villian. But it's a multiplayer game. What kind of villian only preys on the weak and those who cannot defend themselves? A cowardly one.
I think this is important to remember. One doesn't have to prey on the weak in order to be a "bad guy." There are plenty of other ways to get the "good guys" riled up without harrassing new players.
Another important statement, which begs the question: if given the tools at level 1 to defend themselves against a level 70, would WoW players even know what to do? I would be willing to bet that they are so programmed into "level 70 = instant loss" that even if they stood a pretty good chance at winning, they would still run away. I'm not saying it's their fault, since Blizzard is the one who decided this was a good mechanic to have, but we need to break out of this mold and let newbies have some fun, too.
Skill based advancement isn't the total end all answer to the noob vs. veteran debate.
Skill based advancement is really the exact same as levels.
Skill based combat, i.e. twitch mechanics do go a long way in helping to even the balance between noob and vet.
And I am going to put my post on the DF general forums once i can
OK, some players have been burned in some other MMOs. Lets wait and see how (if) it will be done in Darkfall. And one little thing many seems to forget: FFA PvP is just a feature...you dont need to do, because you can. You have a choice.
Hence, why many do not like non-consensual PvP in MMOs.
Sandbox games and FFA games are great because they give you choices, unfortunately some of these choices allow you remove another players choice.
Some seem to very much enjoy removing another players freedom of choice, but apparently the majority would rather retain their freedom of choice, and thus they choose games were they don't have to worry about someone forcing their playstyle on them.
And how often has the justification been "I did it because I could do it?" You see another player going about his business doing whatever, and it looks like he's got a shiny new Axe. This is one of those situations where the Devil pops up on one shoulder and the Angel on the other.
The thing that keeps most of us listening to the Angel in real life is consequence. But online, where no one knows who you really are unless you want them to, what consequence matters enough to keep you from wanting the shiny new Axe?
True, you do have a choice. A choice to allow others their freedom of choice, or a choice to take that right away from someone else.
Many will make the choice to simply not even bother and not play a game like Darkfall. Yes, the FFA PvP is just a feature, but it is one whose scope and bredth effect every aspect of the game, every other feature.
Lets cut to the chase here: You can choose to not PvP in a FFA PvP MMO. But you dont get it for free. Thats the whole point in a sandbox MMO. You can do whatever you want....but none will just give it to you.
The player that fails to understand this.....will in the end try to blame the game for them not having fun. And by doing that, only look very misinformed.
Example: you dont want to PvP, then stay out of dangerous places and always try to have friends around. And PvP dont just mean combat.....merchants must trade with other players...business PvP, then we have diplomatic and political PvP.....and those are just as fun as the combat PvP.
I have played Lineage 2, EVE and Shadowbane..and i have never had any trouble with PK. Only when i tryed WoW did i get greifed and PKed.....so that shows MMOs without FFA PvP doesnt work. Some people cant handle the power of a "high level" character.
Ah but the issue here is that in making it more "skill based" you are moving the game away from the MMORPG genre. Even still, there is the matter of time spent using that skill and getting better with handling the mechanics of the game which noobs won't have. Furthermore, the skill issue dies the moment any form of progression is present in the game at all. Whether level based, or skill point based, progression ensures that BESIDES the natural use skill advantage that vets will have just from being more familiar with the mechanics...they will ALSO have a statistical lead. It actually compounds the problem with more problems rather than alleviate either one.
Player loot = death for the game. Anyone who truly wants to make a sandbox MMO that is Blockbuster at this point is going to accept that. EVE spent years getting the players it has...and it ONLY has them because it finally developed the community to support it. There is no need to loot the player to enjoy FFA PvP.
That wasn't an attack at you, by the way. I realize you say the same things I do in your blog. I only mentioned it for anyone else reading.
In every FFA PvP game I have ever played there was no such "dangerous" zone. In every case I logged into a game where I IMMEDIATELY was hunted and killed by player after player until I realized I could never get ahead because I spent more time running to try and salvage some of the meager items I had instead of actually progressing.
You are a fool to suggest otherwise. It does not take an army of gankers to ruin this game type...it takes only a handful. Experience has shown me that, more often than not, FAR more than a handful participate in this. They do so because it is easy, and it is profitable. They are veteran players who got the luxury of progressing WITHOUT that problem, and are those whom do not wish to lose anything hunting other vets. Instead they abuse the noobs for cheap easy loot because losing sucks.
Its a stupid ideal, and it ruins that game for anyone who does not play from the day the servers open. Only one game has ever done it successfully and that game has ways to help noobs.
This is like saying "money is really the exact same as currency." That's because it is a sub-system within the "leveling" mechanic. Just as money is a TYPE of currency, skill-based advancement is a TYPE of leveling. The difference is that in a class-based system, you're stuck with your class, and ONLY with your class. With a skill-based system, I can invest in healing and tanking and DPS as much (or as little) as I want to, and it won't affect my other abilities (short of a hard-cap on total levels).
Anyone who thinks skill-based advancement is not the same as leveling clearly doesn't understand either term.
This is like saying "money is really the exact same as currency."
Nobody was saying it isn't. That's because... it is the exact same as leveling. The difference is that in a class-based system, you're stuck with your class, and ONLY with your class. With a skill-based system, I can invest in healing and tanking and DPS as much (or as little) as I want to, and it won't affect my other abilities (short of a hard-cap on total levels).
Anyone who thinks skill-based advancement is not the same as leveling clearly doesn't understand either term.
You can call both "Empowering Progression".
In either case, the player moves ahead and becomes stronger than he was before.
This is like saying "money is really the exact same as currency."
Nobody was saying it isn't. That's because... it is the exact same as leveling. The difference is that in a class-based system, you're stuck with your class, and ONLY with your class. With a skill-based system, I can invest in healing and tanking and DPS as much (or as little) as I want to, and it won't affect my other abilities (short of a hard-cap on total levels).
Anyone who thinks skill-based advancement is not the same as leveling clearly doesn't understand either term.
You can call both "Empowering Progression".
In either case, the player moves ahead and becomes stronger than he was before.
Correct.
Only difference is that in most skill based systems, you are allowed to choose your set of skills, where as in a class base game you choose an archetype and get the skills that archetype possesses.
You still have choice, actually in most skill games people end up mimicking classes anyway, funny enough, but just having the choice to do something different is a good thing.
First off, when talking about PvP you know we are talking about combat between players, not ecnomics and politics...
You are right, you can choose to not PvP in a FFA PvP MMO.
But because it is a FFA PvP MMO, it does NOT guarantee that someone else will not choose to PvP you.
It's like saying you can go to war and choose not to fight, but people can still attack and kill you if they choose.
From my experience, "Staying out of dangerous places" means you never leave town and stick close to any Guard/Patrol NPCs.
EVE is a LOT different and barely FFA PvP in comparison to classic UO. EVE is plenty of rules and restrictions, both social and game system mechanics that make EVE barely FFA.
You say that we should bring friends and avoid dangerous areas.
So you are saying that I need to change my play style and adapt how I play because some other jerk wants to ruin my day?
I'll pass, thanks. I'd rather play a game where I could play however I wanted to, but with an understanding that everyone else has the RIGHT and RESPONSIBILITY as paying customers to play how they want to.
I don't imagine you'll see a long line of subscribers lining up to be innocent victims.
If two players choose to battle each other, sweet. May the best man/women win.
Let's say you have a MMORPG with 1,000 players. If 500 player choose to attack other players, but that second group of 500 players wants nothing to do with the first, 50% of your subscribers aren't paying for a product that is allowing them to do what they want.
Which means eventually 50% of your subscribers will quit.
Which means the other 50% have just lost their target practice, and they'll probably soon quit. Gankers/Griefers don't find it too fun when the tables are turned and people start ganking/griefing them.
The stories of the guy/gal who is ganked by a PK and then spending all this time/effort to build their strength and get even?
Yeah, cool stories. Very Rocky Balboa. Very American "we can overcome any obstacle!"
But how many people get to be that Hero? For that one person to be a Hero, how many people have to be innocent victims first?
So some Detective gets a medal and key to the city for catching a mass murderer who raped and killed 15 people. Hurray! We're so happy!
But wouldn't it be better if those 15 people hadn't been raped and killed in the first place?
Yes.
if osme jerk was tryign to kill you just kill him if your a good player you shouldnt have a problem
the pk probly wont be nowhere as bad as like shadowbane because level makes more diffrence than skill based ever will well swg precu kinda had templates you can mix it wasnt trully skilled based
and if the alignmeant system works the way its suppose to that will help alot
I think most of you must read up about the alignmentsystem.
______________________________
The Sceptics, yes they're special but we've need them to.. I guess.
And if they're put more effort MMORPG.com can create a 'Team Sceptic'
and send them to the Special Olympus.
Darkfall is not exactly FFA, it has an alignment system in place so if you decide to kill someone of your own race you get an alignment hit and if you do that too many times you will not only turn blood eye RED to the rest of your race but the town and city guards will attack you on sight. Also remember that there is only 1 character per server so you gotta be carefull, you can't just create 10 characters and use them for griefing.
FFA PVP is possible but most of the guilds who follow that type of policy will be either Pirate or shadowy clans who have a small hidden base somewhere, it will be well defended but it also will be remote away from the major population centers of their own race that they decided to declare war against.
Yup some people have to read up on the game before they have too many assumptions concerning Darkfall.
And the ones that never played a similar game, like UO, be a bit humble regarding alignment, how it will work and so on. Get some own experience, then dump it or cheerish it.
UO worked like a clock with their type of alignment system.
people say that they think the start game will be bad? i mean i think it could just be one of the best, most newbs spend all their time powergrinding LVLs, in darkfall that wont be so easy(not to mention its meant to be quick skill gaining) anyway, your going to get killed and looted in this game, you are going to make friends good ones and quickly, your going to need them. Isn't this how a game should be built? maybe im wrong
Nah youre right. Darkfall is a game much like real life. No carebear zones where you can stay protected. No place is 100% protected, even though the main cities of the races will be very hard to conquer.
{ Mod Edit }
Free For all PvP / Free For all PvP , in the context of this game is not what most people seem to think it is.
This game has PvE/PvP whatever it is not relevant wiuth the game mechanics, the mechanic is if you abuse the ability to PvP the penalty will be far too great for all but the best to play this game as they slowly but surely become outcasts.
The Faction/Alignment system will see to that.
Full Loot, okay the loot does not play the major part in this game skills do believe it or not it's a skill based game. These can be complimented by items weapons and the like but people who do not want to loose good items have the opportunitty to live in game areas that protect them. So a little inteligence and theres no problem.
This game will be perfect for non PvPers because it is all about choice.
The griefers/gankers well they always exit but only if they gain overwhelming advantage and this game will not allow that unless the player getting it, is stupid enough to put himself in that position.
The penalties for ganking new players from what I have seen will be too severe for it to be worth it.
Items will be easily replaceable to the extent of being able to play , so the real PvP will be a reputation thing not a look at all the gold and items i just looted.
This world will be of quite a size and PvP will be avoidable ... easily from what I can gather.
This should clarify for all those who love to band the Full PvP / loot All mantra... It's a little like the guys who shout rollback in game channels to get a response... someone always bites.
This game concept is great ... now lets just hope it releases...!!!!
________________________________________________________
Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel