Lets cut to the chase here: You can choose to not PvP in a FFA PvP MMO. But you dont get it for free. Thats the whole point in a sandbox MMO. You can do whatever you want....but none will just give it to you. The player that fails to understand this.....will in the end try to blame the game for them not having fun. And by doing that, only look very misinformed. Example: you dont want to PvP, then stay out of dangerous places and always try to have friends around. And PvP dont just mean combat.....merchants must trade with other players...business PvP, then we have diplomatic and political PvP.....and those are just as fun as the combat PvP. I have played Lineage 2, EVE and Shadowbane..and i have never had any trouble with PK. Only when i tryed WoW did i get greifed and PKed.....so that shows MMOs without FFA PvP doesnt work. Some people cant handle the power of a "high level" character.
I understand your point and appreciate the response, however I just have to disagree.
First off, when talking about PvP you know we are talking about combat between players, not ecnomics and politics...
You are right, you can choose to not PvP in a FFA PvP MMO.
But because it is a FFA PvP MMO, it does NOT guarantee that someone else will not choose to PvP you.
It's like saying you can go to war and choose not to fight, but people can still attack and kill you if they choose.
From my experience, "Staying out of dangerous places" means you never leave town and stick close to any Guard/Patrol NPCs.
EVE is a LOT different and barely FFA PvP in comparison to classic UO. EVE is plenty of rules and restrictions, both social and game system mechanics that make EVE barely FFA.
You say that we should bring friends and avoid dangerous areas.
So you are saying that I need to change my play style and adapt how I play because some other jerk wants to ruin my day?
I'll pass, thanks. I'd rather play a game where I could play however I wanted to, but with an understanding that everyone else has the RIGHT and RESPONSIBILITY as paying customers to play how they want to.
I don't imagine you'll see a long line of subscribers lining up to be innocent victims.
If two players choose to battle each other, sweet. May the best man/women win.
Let's say you have a MMORPG with 1,000 players. If 500 player choose to attack other players, but that second group of 500 players wants nothing to do with the first, 50% of your subscribers aren't paying for a product that is allowing them to do what they want.
Which means eventually 50% of your subscribers will quit.
Which means the other 50% have just lost their target practice, and they'll probably soon quit. Gankers/Griefers don't find it too fun when the tables are turned and people start ganking/griefing them.
The stories of the guy/gal who is ganked by a PK and then spending all this time/effort to build their strength and get even?
Yeah, cool stories. Very Rocky Balboa. Very American "we can overcome any obstacle!"
But how many people get to be that Hero? For that one person to be a Hero, how many people have to be innocent victims first?
So some Detective gets a medal and key to the city for catching a mass murderer who raped and killed 15 people. Hurray! We're so happy!
But wouldn't it be better if those 15 people hadn't been raped and killed in the first place?
Yes.
If you do not have the ability to understand and play the game for what it is then it is not for you. Anyone will be able to play this game how they feel fit. Now if you insist that you want to walk on water through an area where you know of the danger then that is just plain stupidity and no matter how the game is layed out you will complain.
Sound like you want linear / easy / no thought game mechanics.... Well the ones in Darkfall will be simple but maybe not simple enough for you.
________________________________________________________ Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
Please go read up on the Darkfall site / you are making far too many assumptions about the game and taking things out of context. I could pick through youre responses and correct you but whats the point I am not sure you are interested. As far as digging holes youre responses are ammusing, but out of context.
The game is about player skill, If you dont have the skill to adapt and want to macro and AFK then you will be in trouble no way around it.
If you know Orcs are marauding why do you have the right to walk by like God, and why on earth have you got yourself in that situation.
Mute argument again, I think you will like Darkfall because it will give to a greater extend what you want but in return you will have to abide by the rules of the game. If you put your head into the cats mouth don't be surprised that it gets bitten off( And that was mean't to read big cat).
________________________________________________________ Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
Please go read up on the Darkfall site / you are making far too many assumptions about the game and taking things out of context. I could pick through youre responses and correct you but whats the point I am not sure you are interested. As far as digging holes youre responses are ammusing, but out of context. The game is about player skill, If you dont have the skill to adapt and want to macro and AFK then you will be in trouble no way around it. If you know Orcs are marauding why do you have the right to walk by like God, and why on earth have you got yourself in that situation. Mute argument again, I think you will like Darkfall because it will give to a greater extend what you want but in return you will have to abide by the rules of the game. If you put your head into the cats mouth don't be surprised that it gets bitten off( And that was mean't to read big cat).
I've read nearly every line of text on the Darkfall website and been heavily involved in the discussions about Darkfall here on the MMORPG.com forums.
The alignment / justice system is the key to creating an environment that isn't full of *sshat ganker/griefer d-bags.
Does the alignment system work? I don't know, I haven't played, the devs aren't saying much, and the only 1st person account of playing the game was from that Asp guy, and I doubt the credibility.
I am very interesting in this game, and will try it out for sure if it's ever released, and if I like it I'll play it.
I love FFA PvP etc. but only when it is done right. I have serious doubts about a small indy developer with questionable reliability and honesty to "do it right."
Yup some people have to read up on the game before they have too many assumptions concerning Darkfall. And the ones that never played a similar game, like UO, be a bit humble regarding alignment, how it will work and so on. Get some own experience, then dump it or cheerish it. UO worked like a clock with their type of alignment system.
See I played UO and I don't the alignment system worked well at all.
Players who were PKs, who went red, had no real consequences. Yeah, you couldn't go into the towns and cities without being attacked... Oh well, you could still go to Skara Brae and bank, you could still have your house as a safe spot / bank.... There were Red healers to rez you (at least on Siege Perilous)
Going red and being a PK was a choice, a choice with very little real consequence. At least, this was my experience.
See I played UO and I don't the alignment system worked well at all. Players who were PKs, who went red, had no real consequences. Yeah, you couldn't go into the towns and cities without being attacked... Oh well, you could still go to Skara Brae and bank, you could still have your house as a safe spot / bank.... There were Red healers to rez you (at least on Siege Perilous) Going red and being a PK was a choice, a choice with very little real consequence. At least, this was my experience.
A questin, did UO have full loot ? I mean, who would you attack the "riskfree" dude with double loot or the riskie dude with no loot ?
--- And when we got more women on the team, it was like No, no, no. We need puppies and horses in there. John Smedley, SOE
A questin, did UO have full loot ? I mean, who would you attack the "riskfree" dude with double loot or the riskie dude with no loot ?
Yes UO did have full loot.
And all the &sshat gankers and griefers would attack the "riskfree" dude with NO loot just because they are cowards and pathetic.
It didn't matter that the stuff didn't really have too much value, it didn't matter that it was easy to replace...
Gankers / griefers do it for kicks. Plain and simple.
Stalking a guy who goes out and does some mining, letting him fill his pack with ores and THEN killing him and stealing everything? That's just smart playing.
Killing Joe-Noob as he leaves town for the first time to get the 37 gold pieces he started the game with? No one will ever be able to justify that as being a "hardcore" or "challenging" aspect of game.
I liked the post. But i cant reply on the official DF forum. But one thing im a bit worried about: soem players mix up FFA PvP with griefing, ganking and noob killing. And yes we see that alot in.....WoW. In a FFA PvP MMO without classes and levels, there are no noobs. A new character can kill of a veteran character. In example woW, you have NO chance of defending yourself from a high level character. And that seems to be ok? But be able to defend.....thats not ok??
Daarco, you should have posted this 20 times in succession because of how many people DO NOT GET THIS CONCEPT. It's alarming that people automatically assume that new player = gimped. They need to think of it like Unreal Tournament or something. You have a chance if you have talent and intelligence/wit at your disposal.
It has been said time and time again, veteran players can be taken down by a couple smart noobs (in starter gear). FFA PVP with full loot doesn't work in a game like WoW, and that's the frame of reference so many of the posters here have. All I have to offer is to try the game when it comes out. I'm sure it will be some of the most exciting action ever, not to mention the world is the square mileage of Germany irl. Don't forget dungeons, tons of quake-bot type AI mobs that migrate, have racial leaders, loot players' corpses and wield their weapons, etc. etc. etc.
The point is, this game isn't ONLY pvp, it's a massive MMO with no safe-zones, tons of dungeons, no INSTANCES, and sea battles!
Please go read up on the Darkfall site / you are making far too many assumptions about the game and taking things out of context. I could pick through youre responses and correct you but whats the point I am not sure you are interested. As far as digging holes youre responses are ammusing, but out of context. The game is about player skill, If you dont have the skill to adapt and want to macro and AFK then you will be in trouble no way around it. If you know Orcs are marauding why do you have the right to walk by like God, and why on earth have you got yourself in that situation. Mute argument again, I think you will like Darkfall because it will give to a greater extend what you want but in return you will have to abide by the rules of the game. If you put your head into the cats mouth don't be surprised that it gets bitten off( And that was mean't to read big cat).
I've read nearly every line of text on the Darkfall website and been heavily involved in the discussions about Darkfall here on the MMORPG.com forums.
The alignment / justice system is the key to creating an environment that isn't full of *sshat ganker/griefer d-bags.
Does the alignment system work? I don't know, I haven't played, the devs aren't saying much, and the only 1st person account of playing the game was from that Asp guy, and I doubt the credibility.
I am very interesting in this game, and will try it out for sure if it's ever released, and if I like it I'll play it.
I love FFA PvP etc. but only when it is done right. I have serious doubts about a small indy developer with questionable reliability and honesty to "do it right."
That is all.
BTW, no way you've "read nearly every line of text on the Darkfall website". The discussions here mean jack, also. They are typically so far off base from what the known facts are, it's hard to make it through a post. If you are interested, continue posting and take part. The devs come from UO, they know what they're doing. They've taken a long time to perfect it and it is their passion.
I really think that only a small % of people who want FFA PvP want it for the ability to gank/griefer others. Those that do want to gank/grief others are just tools, and nothing can be done for them.
The OP is labouring under an amusing - but very common - misconception about the "ganker" mindset. Namely, he is thinking that people do this beause they're some sort of psychologically broken sadists, or whatever.
The truth is...most of them simply don't give a damn about you. You're a moving target, your threat level is quickly summarized based on the available metrics, and you are either engaged or evaded based on that. Maybe you put up a fight. Maybe you don't. The thing is, you don't matter to them. You're just another target, and any psychological anguish you may express afterwards is, at best, just icing on the cake. Hey, look! That one we just skewered now is twitching. Haha, cute. There is nothing targeted or malicious about this; they wanted a warm body to stab, and you just happened to be the first one to pop up. Too bad, so sad.
The underlying principle here is typical of mass market MMO appeals - I am the main character, I am the hero, so clearly anything done against me is a villianous plot! Conspiracy! Deviants! Child-molesting halfwit psychopaths!
No, my friend, nothing nearly so grandiose. The truth is really much more simple: you're not part of their peer group, so in their eyes, you're nothing more than another NPC to be farmed.
Why, then, do these players want FFA PvP? Why not arena duels, or Realm versus Realm, or a thousand other restrictions that have been tried in the past? In response to that, more questions: why is the sport fisherman most enthusiastic during the spawning season? Why do hunters gravitate to the most populated animal habitats? And there you have your answer.
EDIT: wtf is wrong with this damned forum software; either it doesn't do spacing properly or it has issues interpreting code tags
I really think that only a small % of people who want FFA PvP want it for the ability to gank/griefer others. Those that do want to gank/grief others are just tools, and nothing can be done for them.
The OP is labouring under an amusing - but very common - misconception about the "ganker" mindset. Namely, he is thinking that people do this beause they're some sort of psychologically broken sadists, or whatever.
The truth is...most of them simply don't give a damn about you. You're a moving target, your threat level is quickly summarized based on the available metrics, and you are either engaged or evaded based on that. Maybe you put up a fight. Maybe you don't. The thing is, you don't matter to them. You're just another target, and any psychological anguish you may express afterwards is, at best, just icing on the cake. Hey, look! That one we just skewered now is twitching. Haha, cute. There is nothing targeted or malicious about this. They wanted a warm body to stab, and you just happened to be the first one to pop up. Too bad, so sad.
The underlying principle here is typical of mass market MMO appeals - I am the main character, I am the hero, so clearly anything done against me is a villianous plot! Conspiracy! Deviants!
No, my friend, the truth is just that you're simply another notch in the belt waiting to happen. Just another NPC to be farmed, if you would.
ha ha, ouchy.....that got to hurt for all wannabe heroes. Thats is a +1 post.
The OP is labouring under an amusing - but very common - misconception about the "ganker" mindset. Namely, he is thinking that people do this beause they're some sort of psychologically broken sadists, or whatever.
The truth is...most of them simply don't give a damn about you. You're a moving target, your threat level is quickly summarized based on the available metrics, and you are either engaged or evaded based on that. Maybe you put up a fight. Maybe you don't. The thing is, you don't matter to them. You're just another target, and any psychological anguish you may express afterwards is, at best, just icing on the cake. Hey, look! That one we just skewered now is twitching. Haha, cute. There is nothing targeted or malicious about this; they wanted a warm body to stab, and you just happened to be the first one to pop up. Too bad, so sad.
The underlying principle here is typical of mass market MMO appeals - I am the main character, I am the hero, so clearly anything done against me is a villianous plot! Conspiracy! Deviants! Child-molesting halfwit psychopaths!
No, my friend, nothing nearly so grandiose. The truth is really much more simple: you're not part of their peer group, so in their eyes, you're nothing more than another NPC to be farmed.
Why, then, do these players want FFA PvP? Why not arena duels, or Realm versus Realm, or a thousand other restrictions that have been tried in the past? In response to that, more questions: why is the sport fisherman most enthusiastic during the spawning season? Why do hunters gravitate to the most populated animal habitats? And there you have your answer.
EDIT: wtf is wrong with this damned forum software; either it doesn't do spacing properly or it has issues interpreting code tags
The ganker/griefer may not give a damn about me. But I don't give a damn about the ganker/griefer, and I do give a damn about me.
So if I choose to leave the ganker/griefer alone, because I think he's a tool, if I chose to not give a damn about him and go about my business...
It doesn't matter, because he/she can still attack me and kill me. People say a skill based system is the answer. A skill based system is exactly the same as a level system in terms of relative character power.
Someone with 50/100 Swords skill and someone who is level 50 out of 100 is exactly the same. They are still very underpowered when fighting someone who is level 100 out of 100 or has their Sword skill at 100/100.
Even in the great UO, 7x GM vs. noob whose highest skill is what, 25? Who wins? Hands down, every single time the 7x GM will win.
7 noobs vs. one 7x GM? It is possible the 7 noobs can win.
I don't care about that, veteran players deserve the right to be powerful. They have worked and played and advanced their character. They deserve to be more powerful.
If they use that power to slaughter people who have no chance of defending themselves successfully, then they are a tool, a d-bag, and an *sshat. They get nothing from it other then some cruel sense of "HAHAAH I PWND JOO!"
If by skill based system you are talking about twitch mechanics like FPS style combat, which Darkfall will have, then yes, a Noob does have a good chance to defeat a veteran player. It's up to the player's skill not their RPG stat 50/100 swords skill.
I'm just saying why would the Veteran target the noob in the first place? Because he/she is a coward. They want a sure thing, they want a gauranteed victory. Cowrards. Pathetic.
To those who don't have access to the Darkfall Forums here is what I said:
"Here are my viewpoints, cut/pasted from other blogs- Warning: Long read
I really think that only a small % of people who want FFA PvP want it for the ability to gank/griefer others. Those that do want to gank/grief others are just tools, and nothing can be done for them.
I believe that the majority who want FFA PvP really just want FFA faction/guild PvP. They want to choose their alliances, choose their enemies, and wage their own wars, not the pre-defined allies/enemies the devs force them into. What Darkfall PvP will supposedly give us.
If you were to create a game where Guilds could wage war with each other, and guilds could band together to form their own factions, and thus choose what other guilds/faction to war against, that would be enough FFA PvP for the majority of those who want FFA PvP. Darkfall is doing this, and given them the ability to create and control their own lands/cities.
For the small minority that just want to gank/grief random players and slaughter noobs, well, you are the reason FFA PvP doesn't exist anymore. It's not the "carebears" fault, it's yours.
I heard a good point made, "With FFA-PvP you had the anti-PK guilds, the PK guilds, the neutral guilds, the policiing guilds and the gank squads everywhere, all in a harmony in a system that worked."
They were right, FFA PvP is all about community.
If you aren't one of these guilds, these "factions" then you are merely the victim of the system, not a participant in it.
HENCE, why so many games have gone to or are going to Faction based and/or guild based PvP only.
It garauntees that those who PvP aren't outside the system, but a part of it.
Getting ganked (which I define as simply being outnumbers/ambushed/swarmed etc.) is totally OK and a part of the game, IF you are a member of the faction/guild in opposition to those that ganked you.
If you are random Joe unguilded noob and a squad of PKs randomly kills you, it sucks, they are cowards, and you hate the game for it.
Get what I'm saying?
FFA PvP ends up breaking down into these groups, these guilds, these factions anyway, but it still REALLY sucks for those who are not part of the system.
And that, I think, is the reason so many dislike FFA PvP.
FFA PvP only "works" if the community is there.
The "lone wolf" will always be the victim. I hated the FFA PvP in UO until I joined up with a large guild. Garaunteed protection and friends who wouldn't grief you. It completely changed the game for me.
If everyone who played was garaunteed a good guild to run with and some teammates to support them, FFA PvP is actually not that FFA, but instead factional. It will break down in Guild vs. Guild or Faction vs. Faction, but there will always be those without a guild or faction to align themselves with, and they will always be the victim or victimize others.
That is why FFA PvP was pretty much abandoned long ago and Faction or Guild based PvP has become the "norm." It garauntees support and belongingness, and help eliminate the "random PK" factor which can (and will) ruin the game.
Open world (i.e. non instanced/balanced teams) PvP is generally all about strength in numbers. Sure, player skill, terrain, preparedness etc. will always help, but no matter those factors 30 vs 10 I'm always putting my money on the team of 30.
Griefing someone for no reason, which I define as "killing someone who has absolutely zero chance of defending themselves" just to be a d*ck and kill them is childish. The more that can be done to prevent this, the better. Even in a "FFA" game, measures SHOULD be taken to prevent vets from slaughtering noobs.
Vets who kill noobs are cowards. This is not an argument, it is fact. They blah blah blah about "Real PvP and challenge" but ganking/griefing is not real PvP, nor is it challenging, it's a pathetic practice by insecure *ssholes who are too scared and cowardly to start a fair fight. They're bullies. Sad, lonely bullies.
Real PvP, just to let you know, is a fair fight or a fight where one party/person has a slight advantage, but the possibility of loss is always there. Ganking/griefing create NO possibility of loss, and are thus NOT real PvP. It's cowardice.
Most FFA PvP i have ever seen ends up being faction/guild vs. faction/guild anyway, it's just the few *sshats who are bored/unguilded etc. will greif/gank random noobs to feel better about themselves, and it's always pathetic.
In terms of full looting, it only "works" when gear is easily replaced and there is no "uber" gear. Like old Ultima Online. Full looting simple will not work in item centric games, nor will ever be attempted by any game that is item centric. Item centric + full loot = bankrupt devs and server shut down.
Look at EVE, the only remaining mostly FFA PvP game. The majority of the uber-awesome exciting PvP people talk about is Corp vs. Corp. Corps are allowed to choose who they war with, who they ally with. But you also have ganker/griefer pilots who ruin the game for others because they are too scared to join the big conflicts, fight fairly, and risk losing their precious stuff.
I personally am really drawn to the idea of open warfare and ownership of land/resources in Darkfall. But ONLY because I'm part of a long running PvP / RP Guild. I'd never even dream of joining Darkfall if I didn't already have a guild.
The skill based advancement is really just another way to do levels. Instead of experience for kills/quests it is skill-ups for using skills. It's the same basic system: different flavor.
The one thing that really separates Darkfall is the FPS like combat. Honestly, we won't know if it "works" till we see it. I don't have much faith. If they can do it as good as Might and Magic: Dark Messiah it'll be sweet.
To end, there are a LOT of jerks on these forums like many of you who can't see but an inch past your own nose, you leave NO room for alternate perspectives and opinions. This makes you very immature and unintelligent, and does not reflect well on the Darkfall community nor does it help build interest in this game.
That was a really good post. Please write some more : )
And i have to add, i have many friends that always have gone "lone wolf" in every MMO they have played. These players are amazing skilled in computer games. And they all will go solo in DF. And i really belive they will pull it of to become solo players roaming the DF world and manage to create a name for themselves.
That was a really good post. Please write some more : ) And i have to add, i have many friends that always have gone "lone wolf" in every MMO they have played. These players are amazing skilled in computer games. And they all will go solo in DF. And i really belive they will pull it of to become solo players roaming the DF world and manage to create a name for themselves.
Thanks!
What I really meant with the "lone wolf" though was that those who don't CHOOSE to be lone wolfs always end up the victim.
Someone who plays the game and chooses to fly solo can def have a great experience and make a name for themselves.
Someone who can't find a guild or friends to adventure with, someone who doesn't choose to be a lone wolf but ends up that way, they've always been the cannon fodder for the PK guilds, for the random gankers/griefers etc.
Vets who kill noobs are cowards. This is not an argument, it is fact. They blah blah blah about "Real PvP and challenge" but ganking/griefing is not real PvP, nor is it challenging, it's a pathetic practice by insecure *ssholes who are too scared and cowardly to start a fair fight. They're bullies. Sad, lonely bullies.
Swiiiiing and a miss. If you've accepted my statement earlier that the PvPers just don't give a damn about you because you're not part of their peer group, then this entire line of thought suddenly becomes very flimsy. Because, lo, for what you say to be true, they would have to actually give a damn about you and your response, but that isn't the case.
Apathy can be malicious, but it is not malice in and of itself. Furthermore, your rant - clearly the product of somebody scarred back in the days of yore - utterly fails to take into account those who fight both fair and unfair fights: the equal-opportunity killers, surprisingly common amongst the more serious PvP crowd. These are the people I was talking about earlier. Newb, vet, equal, unequal...it doesn't matter. You are just a walking target, and if they there's an acceptable chance you can be killed without dying in the process, here we go!
So, again, explain to me how your "wah wah sad lonely bully" rhetoric applies in the realm of simply killing for the sake of killing, stripped of all attendant moral judgements?
Again, I think you resort to your complaints of PKers as being bullies simply because it comforts you to think that you actually matter enough for them to feel even sadistic glee over your death. Unfortunately, you don't even get that. You're just another faceless metric to be dropped, stripped, and passed over, and when that is done, they'll probably never even remember who you were.
Welcome to the cold brutality of the bureaucracy. You're a statistic, not a person.
Swiiiiing and a miss. If you've accepted my statement earlier that the PvPers just don't give a damn about you because you're not part of their peer group, then this entire line of thought suddenly becomes very flimsy. Because, lo, for what you say to be true, they would have to actually give a damn about you and your response, but that isn't the case.
Apathy can be malicious, but it is not malice in and of itself. Furthermore, your rant - clearly the product of somebody scarred back in the days of yore - utterly fails to take into account those who fight both fair and unfair fights: the equal-opportunity killers, surprisingly common amongst the more serious PvP crowd. These are the people I was talking about earlier. Newb, vet, equal, unequal...it doesn't matter. You are just a walking target, and if they there's an acceptable chance you can be killed without dying in the process, here we go! So, again, explain to me how your "wah wah sad lonely bully" rhetoric applies in the realm of simply killing for the sake of killing, stripped of all attendant moral judgements? Again, I think you resort to your complaints of PKers as being bullies simply because it comforts you to think that you actually matter enough for them to feel even sadistic glee over your death. Unfortunately, you don't even get that. You're just another faceless metric to be dropped, stripped, and passed over, and when that is done, they'll probably never even remember who you were. Welcome to the cold brutality of the bureaucracy. You're a statistic, not a person.
Swing and a miss.
I never got griefed/ganked once I started rolling with a solid guild. I'm not scarred and jaded from bad experiences in UO, as I've said elsewhere, I was a bloddy murdering PK myself! Only thing is, we fought with honor. We wouldn't slaughter noobs, we wouldn't loot people's corpses dry, we only took what was fair and what we could take according to the rules we gave ourselves.
You say the PK doesn't discriminate, but you are 100% wrong. The PK will always look for situations where they know they will win, EVERYONE does that in PvP. Even in instanced / gear based PvP, you never go running stupidly into a crowd of 10 people expecting victory.
The difference is the motivation behind the attack. If I see a noob who has no chance of defending himself, I will not attack unless they are stupid enough to attack me. Sometimes, lessons need to be taught!
But the person who views other players as "faceless metric(s) to be dropped, striped and passed over" are the PK's that have ruined FFA PvP. It's your fault Trammel came into existence, it's YOUR fault FFA PvP is no longer available in 99% of MMOs out there.
I don't care who my enemy is, I'll kill them because they are my enemy. But if they are not my enemy? If they have done nothing to insult me, why would I kill them?
Are you trying to keep people down? That is cowardice. You are afraid of them rising up and defeating you. I'd PERFER they be left alone while they are young so when they grow up, I can have myself a decent challange in defeating them.
That is why I said that most SANE FFA PvP supporters like the freedom to create your own guilds and factions, wage your own wars, control your own territories.
But the small percentage who either get off at killing random noobs or kill random noobs simply because they are targets like you say (which = bored btw) are asshole ganker/griefer tools that ruin the game for other players.
If you kill for the sake of killing, stripped of any morallity and judgement then I am really, really sorry for you that you can't make any friends in a MMO or don't have the common decency to not be a jack ass to your fellow players.
How do we keep a game alive, growing, and fun? Get more people involved, spread positive word of mouth, create an in game environment that is welcoming to noobs yet still challenging for veterans.
People like you don't seem to understand that, and thus, sit there behind your keyboard and scream about "carebears" and the likes ruining classic UO and how all games now suck blah blah blah but you don't even realize that YOU are the ones who killed your favorite oldies, not the "carebears" that brought the genre out of the niche market and into the mainstream.
Comments
First off, when talking about PvP you know we are talking about combat between players, not ecnomics and politics...
You are right, you can choose to not PvP in a FFA PvP MMO.
But because it is a FFA PvP MMO, it does NOT guarantee that someone else will not choose to PvP you.
It's like saying you can go to war and choose not to fight, but people can still attack and kill you if they choose.
From my experience, "Staying out of dangerous places" means you never leave town and stick close to any Guard/Patrol NPCs.
EVE is a LOT different and barely FFA PvP in comparison to classic UO. EVE is plenty of rules and restrictions, both social and game system mechanics that make EVE barely FFA.
You say that we should bring friends and avoid dangerous areas.
So you are saying that I need to change my play style and adapt how I play because some other jerk wants to ruin my day?
I'll pass, thanks. I'd rather play a game where I could play however I wanted to, but with an understanding that everyone else has the RIGHT and RESPONSIBILITY as paying customers to play how they want to.
I don't imagine you'll see a long line of subscribers lining up to be innocent victims.
If two players choose to battle each other, sweet. May the best man/women win.
Let's say you have a MMORPG with 1,000 players. If 500 player choose to attack other players, but that second group of 500 players wants nothing to do with the first, 50% of your subscribers aren't paying for a product that is allowing them to do what they want.
Which means eventually 50% of your subscribers will quit.
Which means the other 50% have just lost their target practice, and they'll probably soon quit. Gankers/Griefers don't find it too fun when the tables are turned and people start ganking/griefing them.
The stories of the guy/gal who is ganked by a PK and then spending all this time/effort to build their strength and get even?
Yeah, cool stories. Very Rocky Balboa. Very American "we can overcome any obstacle!"
But how many people get to be that Hero? For that one person to be a Hero, how many people have to be innocent victims first?
So some Detective gets a medal and key to the city for catching a mass murderer who raped and killed 15 people. Hurray! We're so happy!
But wouldn't it be better if those 15 people hadn't been raped and killed in the first place?
Yes.
If you do not have the ability to understand and play the game for what it is then it is not for you. Anyone will be able to play this game how they feel fit. Now if you insist that you want to walk on water through an area where you know of the danger then that is just plain stupidity and no matter how the game is layed out you will complain.Sound like you want linear / easy / no thought game mechanics.... Well the ones in Darkfall will be simple but maybe not simple enough for you.
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Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
Please go read up on the Darkfall site / you are making far too many assumptions about the game and taking things out of context. I could pick through youre responses and correct you but whats the point I am not sure you are interested. As far as digging holes youre responses are ammusing, but out of context.
The game is about player skill, If you dont have the skill to adapt and want to macro and AFK then you will be in trouble no way around it.
If you know Orcs are marauding why do you have the right to walk by like God, and why on earth have you got yourself in that situation.
Mute argument again, I think you will like Darkfall because it will give to a greater extend what you want but in return you will have to abide by the rules of the game. If you put your head into the cats mouth don't be surprised that it gets bitten off( And that was mean't to read big cat).
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Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
I've read nearly every line of text on the Darkfall website and been heavily involved in the discussions about Darkfall here on the MMORPG.com forums.
The alignment / justice system is the key to creating an environment that isn't full of *sshat ganker/griefer d-bags.
Does the alignment system work? I don't know, I haven't played, the devs aren't saying much, and the only 1st person account of playing the game was from that Asp guy, and I doubt the credibility.
I am very interesting in this game, and will try it out for sure if it's ever released, and if I like it I'll play it.
I love FFA PvP etc. but only when it is done right. I have serious doubts about a small indy developer with questionable reliability and honesty to "do it right."
That is all.
See I played UO and I don't the alignment system worked well at all.
Players who were PKs, who went red, had no real consequences. Yeah, you couldn't go into the towns and cities without being attacked... Oh well, you could still go to Skara Brae and bank, you could still have your house as a safe spot / bank.... There were Red healers to rez you (at least on Siege Perilous)
Going red and being a PK was a choice, a choice with very little real consequence. At least, this was my experience.
A questin, did UO have full loot ? I mean, who would you attack the "riskfree" dude with double loot or the riskie dude with no loot ?
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And when we got more women on the team, it was like No, no, no. We need puppies and horses in there.
John Smedley, SOE
And all the &sshat gankers and griefers would attack the "riskfree" dude with NO loot just because they are cowards and pathetic.
It didn't matter that the stuff didn't really have too much value, it didn't matter that it was easy to replace...
Gankers / griefers do it for kicks. Plain and simple.
Stalking a guy who goes out and does some mining, letting him fill his pack with ores and THEN killing him and stealing everything? That's just smart playing.
Killing Joe-Noob as he leaves town for the first time to get the 37 gold pieces he started the game with? No one will ever be able to justify that as being a "hardcore" or "challenging" aspect of game.
It's being a dick. Plain and simple.
It has been said time and time again, veteran players can be taken down by a couple smart noobs (in starter gear). FFA PVP with full loot doesn't work in a game like WoW, and that's the frame of reference so many of the posters here have. All I have to offer is to try the game when it comes out. I'm sure it will be some of the most exciting action ever, not to mention the world is the square mileage of Germany irl. Don't forget dungeons, tons of quake-bot type AI mobs that migrate, have racial leaders, loot players' corpses and wield their weapons, etc. etc. etc.
The point is, this game isn't ONLY pvp, it's a massive MMO with no safe-zones, tons of dungeons, no INSTANCES, and sea battles!
I've read nearly every line of text on the Darkfall website and been heavily involved in the discussions about Darkfall here on the MMORPG.com forums.
The alignment / justice system is the key to creating an environment that isn't full of *sshat ganker/griefer d-bags.
Does the alignment system work? I don't know, I haven't played, the devs aren't saying much, and the only 1st person account of playing the game was from that Asp guy, and I doubt the credibility.
I am very interesting in this game, and will try it out for sure if it's ever released, and if I like it I'll play it.
I love FFA PvP etc. but only when it is done right. I have serious doubts about a small indy developer with questionable reliability and honesty to "do it right."
That is all.
BTW, no way you've "read nearly every line of text on the Darkfall website". The discussions here mean jack, also. They are typically so far off base from what the known facts are, it's hard to make it through a post. If you are interested, continue posting and take part. The devs come from UO, they know what they're doing. They've taken a long time to perfect it and it is their passion.
The truth is...most of them simply don't give a damn about you. You're a moving target, your threat level is quickly summarized based on the available metrics, and you are either engaged or evaded based on that. Maybe you put up a fight. Maybe you don't. The thing is, you don't matter to them. You're just another target, and any psychological anguish you may express afterwards is, at best, just icing on the cake. Hey, look! That one we just skewered now is twitching. Haha, cute. There is nothing targeted or malicious about this; they wanted a warm body to stab, and you just happened to be the first one to pop up. Too bad, so sad.
The underlying principle here is typical of mass market MMO appeals - I am the main character, I am the hero, so clearly anything done against me is a villianous plot! Conspiracy! Deviants! Child-molesting halfwit psychopaths!
No, my friend, nothing nearly so grandiose. The truth is really much more simple: you're not part of their peer group, so in their eyes, you're nothing more than another NPC to be farmed.
Why, then, do these players want FFA PvP? Why not arena duels, or Realm versus Realm, or a thousand other restrictions that have been tried in the past? In response to that, more questions: why is the sport fisherman most enthusiastic during the spawning season? Why do hunters gravitate to the most populated animal habitats? And there you have your answer.
EDIT: wtf is wrong with this damned forum software; either it doesn't do spacing properly or it has issues interpreting code tags
The truth is...most of them simply don't give a damn about you. You're a moving target, your threat level is quickly summarized based on the available metrics, and you are either engaged or evaded based on that. Maybe you put up a fight. Maybe you don't. The thing is, you don't matter to them. You're just another target, and any psychological anguish you may express afterwards is, at best, just icing on the cake. Hey, look! That one we just skewered now is twitching. Haha, cute. There is nothing targeted or malicious about this. They wanted a warm body to stab, and you just happened to be the first one to pop up. Too bad, so sad.
The underlying principle here is typical of mass market MMO appeals - I am the main character, I am the hero, so clearly anything done against me is a villianous plot! Conspiracy! Deviants!
No, my friend, the truth is just that you're simply another notch in the belt waiting to happen. Just another NPC to be farmed, if you would.
ha ha, ouchy.....that got to hurt for all wannabe heroes. Thats is a +1 post.
The ganker/griefer may not give a damn about me. But I don't give a damn about the ganker/griefer, and I do give a damn about me.
So if I choose to leave the ganker/griefer alone, because I think he's a tool, if I chose to not give a damn about him and go about my business...
It doesn't matter, because he/she can still attack me and kill me. People say a skill based system is the answer. A skill based system is exactly the same as a level system in terms of relative character power.
Someone with 50/100 Swords skill and someone who is level 50 out of 100 is exactly the same. They are still very underpowered when fighting someone who is level 100 out of 100 or has their Sword skill at 100/100.
Even in the great UO, 7x GM vs. noob whose highest skill is what, 25? Who wins? Hands down, every single time the 7x GM will win.
7 noobs vs. one 7x GM? It is possible the 7 noobs can win.
I don't care about that, veteran players deserve the right to be powerful. They have worked and played and advanced their character. They deserve to be more powerful.
If they use that power to slaughter people who have no chance of defending themselves successfully, then they are a tool, a d-bag, and an *sshat. They get nothing from it other then some cruel sense of "HAHAAH I PWND JOO!"
If by skill based system you are talking about twitch mechanics like FPS style combat, which Darkfall will have, then yes, a Noob does have a good chance to defeat a veteran player. It's up to the player's skill not their RPG stat 50/100 swords skill.
I'm just saying why would the Veteran target the noob in the first place? Because he/she is a coward. They want a sure thing, they want a gauranteed victory. Cowrards. Pathetic.
I reposted on the general Darkfall forums.
Now let's see what they do to me!
To those who don't have access to the Darkfall Forums here is what I said:
I really think that only a small % of people who want FFA PvP want it for the ability to gank/griefer others. Those that do want to gank/grief others are just tools, and nothing can be done for them.
I believe that the majority who want FFA PvP really just want FFA faction/guild PvP. They want to choose their alliances, choose their enemies, and wage their own wars, not the pre-defined allies/enemies the devs force them into. What Darkfall PvP will supposedly give us.
If you were to create a game where Guilds could wage war with each other, and guilds could band together to form their own factions, and thus choose what other guilds/faction to war against, that would be enough FFA PvP for the majority of those who want FFA PvP. Darkfall is doing this, and given them the ability to create and control their own lands/cities.
For the small minority that just want to gank/grief random players and slaughter noobs, well, you are the reason FFA PvP doesn't exist anymore. It's not the "carebears" fault, it's yours.
I heard a good point made, "With FFA-PvP you had the anti-PK guilds, the PK guilds, the neutral guilds, the policiing guilds and the gank squads everywhere, all in a harmony in a system that worked."
They were right, FFA PvP is all about community.
If you aren't one of these guilds, these "factions" then you are merely the victim of the system, not a participant in it.
HENCE, why so many games have gone to or are going to Faction based and/or guild based PvP only.
It garauntees that those who PvP aren't outside the system, but a part of it.
Getting ganked (which I define as simply being outnumbers/ambushed/swarmed etc.) is totally OK and a part of the game, IF you are a member of the faction/guild in opposition to those that ganked you.
If you are random Joe unguilded noob and a squad of PKs randomly kills you, it sucks, they are cowards, and you hate the game for it.
Get what I'm saying?
FFA PvP ends up breaking down into these groups, these guilds, these factions anyway, but it still REALLY sucks for those who are not part of the system.
And that, I think, is the reason so many dislike FFA PvP.
FFA PvP only "works" if the community is there.
The "lone wolf" will always be the victim. I hated the FFA PvP in UO until I joined up with a large guild. Garaunteed protection and friends who wouldn't grief you. It completely changed the game for me.
If everyone who played was garaunteed a good guild to run with and some teammates to support them, FFA PvP is actually not that FFA, but instead factional. It will break down in Guild vs. Guild or Faction vs. Faction, but there will always be those without a guild or faction to align themselves with, and they will always be the victim or victimize others.
That is why FFA PvP was pretty much abandoned long ago and Faction or Guild based PvP has become the "norm." It garauntees support and belongingness, and help eliminate the "random PK" factor which can (and will) ruin the game.
Open world (i.e. non instanced/balanced teams) PvP is generally all about strength in numbers. Sure, player skill, terrain, preparedness etc. will always help, but no matter those factors 30 vs 10 I'm always putting my money on the team of 30.
Griefing someone for no reason, which I define as "killing someone who has absolutely zero chance of defending themselves" just to be a d*ck and kill them is childish. The more that can be done to prevent this, the better. Even in a "FFA" game, measures SHOULD be taken to prevent vets from slaughtering noobs.
Vets who kill noobs are cowards. This is not an argument, it is fact. They blah blah blah about "Real PvP and challenge" but ganking/griefing is not real PvP, nor is it challenging, it's a pathetic practice by insecure *ssholes who are too scared and cowardly to start a fair fight. They're bullies. Sad, lonely bullies.
Real PvP, just to let you know, is a fair fight or a fight where one party/person has a slight advantage, but the possibility of loss is always there. Ganking/griefing create NO possibility of loss, and are thus NOT real PvP. It's cowardice.
Most FFA PvP i have ever seen ends up being faction/guild vs. faction/guild anyway, it's just the few *sshats who are bored/unguilded etc. will greif/gank random noobs to feel better about themselves, and it's always pathetic.
In terms of full looting, it only "works" when gear is easily replaced and there is no "uber" gear. Like old Ultima Online. Full looting simple will not work in item centric games, nor will ever be attempted by any game that is item centric. Item centric + full loot = bankrupt devs and server shut down.
Look at EVE, the only remaining mostly FFA PvP game. The majority of the uber-awesome exciting PvP people talk about is Corp vs. Corp. Corps are allowed to choose who they war with, who they ally with. But you also have ganker/griefer pilots who ruin the game for others because they are too scared to join the big conflicts, fight fairly, and risk losing their precious stuff.
I personally am really drawn to the idea of open warfare and ownership of land/resources in Darkfall. But ONLY because I'm part of a long running PvP / RP Guild. I'd never even dream of joining Darkfall if I didn't already have a guild.
The skill based advancement is really just another way to do levels. Instead of experience for kills/quests it is skill-ups for using skills. It's the same basic system: different flavor.
The one thing that really separates Darkfall is the FPS like combat. Honestly, we won't know if it "works" till we see it. I don't have much faith. If they can do it as good as Might and Magic: Dark Messiah it'll be sweet.
To end, there are a LOT of jerks on these forums like many of you who can't see but an inch past your own nose, you leave NO room for alternate perspectives and opinions. This makes you very immature and unintelligent, and does not reflect well on the Darkfall community nor does it help build interest in this game.
Thanks for reading."
That was a really good post. Please write some more : )
And i have to add, i have many friends that always have gone "lone wolf" in every MMO they have played. These players are amazing skilled in computer games. And they all will go solo in DF. And i really belive they will pull it of to become solo players roaming the DF world and manage to create a name for themselves.
Thanks!
What I really meant with the "lone wolf" though was that those who don't CHOOSE to be lone wolfs always end up the victim.
Someone who plays the game and chooses to fly solo can def have a great experience and make a name for themselves.
Someone who can't find a guild or friends to adventure with, someone who doesn't choose to be a lone wolf but ends up that way, they've always been the cannon fodder for the PK guilds, for the random gankers/griefers etc.
BTW read up on the action here:
http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=50695
Apathy can be malicious, but it is not malice in and of itself. Furthermore, your rant - clearly the product of somebody scarred back in the days of yore - utterly fails to take into account those who fight both fair and unfair fights: the equal-opportunity killers, surprisingly common amongst the more serious PvP crowd. These are the people I was talking about earlier. Newb, vet, equal, unequal...it doesn't matter. You are just a walking target, and if they there's an acceptable chance you can be killed without dying in the process, here we go!
So, again, explain to me how your "wah wah sad lonely bully" rhetoric applies in the realm of simply killing for the sake of killing, stripped of all attendant moral judgements?
Again, I think you resort to your complaints of PKers as being bullies simply because it comforts you to think that you actually matter enough for them to feel even sadistic glee over your death. Unfortunately, you don't even get that. You're just another faceless metric to be dropped, stripped, and passed over, and when that is done, they'll probably never even remember who you were.
Welcome to the cold brutality of the bureaucracy. You're a statistic, not a person.
Swing and a miss.
I never got griefed/ganked once I started rolling with a solid guild. I'm not scarred and jaded from bad experiences in UO, as I've said elsewhere, I was a bloddy murdering PK myself! Only thing is, we fought with honor. We wouldn't slaughter noobs, we wouldn't loot people's corpses dry, we only took what was fair and what we could take according to the rules we gave ourselves.
You say the PK doesn't discriminate, but you are 100% wrong. The PK will always look for situations where they know they will win, EVERYONE does that in PvP. Even in instanced / gear based PvP, you never go running stupidly into a crowd of 10 people expecting victory.
The difference is the motivation behind the attack. If I see a noob who has no chance of defending himself, I will not attack unless they are stupid enough to attack me. Sometimes, lessons need to be taught!
But the person who views other players as "faceless metric(s) to be dropped, striped and passed over" are the PK's that have ruined FFA PvP. It's your fault Trammel came into existence, it's YOUR fault FFA PvP is no longer available in 99% of MMOs out there.
I don't care who my enemy is, I'll kill them because they are my enemy. But if they are not my enemy? If they have done nothing to insult me, why would I kill them?
Are you trying to keep people down? That is cowardice. You are afraid of them rising up and defeating you. I'd PERFER they be left alone while they are young so when they grow up, I can have myself a decent challange in defeating them.
That is why I said that most SANE FFA PvP supporters like the freedom to create your own guilds and factions, wage your own wars, control your own territories.
But the small percentage who either get off at killing random noobs or kill random noobs simply because they are targets like you say (which = bored btw) are asshole ganker/griefer tools that ruin the game for other players.
If you kill for the sake of killing, stripped of any morallity and judgement then I am really, really sorry for you that you can't make any friends in a MMO or don't have the common decency to not be a jack ass to your fellow players.
How do we keep a game alive, growing, and fun? Get more people involved, spread positive word of mouth, create an in game environment that is welcoming to noobs yet still challenging for veterans.
People like you don't seem to understand that, and thus, sit there behind your keyboard and scream about "carebears" and the likes ruining classic UO and how all games now suck blah blah blah but you don't even realize that YOU are the ones who killed your favorite oldies, not the "carebears" that brought the genre out of the niche market and into the mainstream.
PWNT