Do you think in-game markets would alleviate the inflation (well i'm not sure if it's too late already for existing servers) let's say if the in-game markets are only in certain servers? I mean the inflation in those servers will rise, but that's a given and that's what players who would join those servers would understand. Those servers would entice players like Jasco, because they'd be legit, ban-free and it would give the typical user a shot at making some money themselves with the integrated market system governed by Blizzard. Maybe that will sway alot of people to these servers and forget about 3rd party vendors all-together. I'm sure there will still be some market activity for non-in-game market servers but the demand would lower drastically because I'm sure most buyers don't want the risk of getting caught and banned for it and would rather move server. Would that entice you Jasco? And heerobya do you think that would be a step in the right direction or a step backwards? Love to hear your thoughts. Lol not that any of this stuff would get implemented, I"m just trying to see why Blizzard wouldn't want to do this. I only see positive influence.
I know EQ2 has servers with RMT (real money transactions) so you'd have to ask someone who plays on those servers.
I just think it's an unfair advantage. Like most things in Real life, the person with more money has the advantage. Why extend that harsh reality to the gaming world? We all pay our monthly fee, we should have the same access to goods.
I've always thought that Blizzard needs to put some controls on the market. Think of it this way, how much do goods sell for if you sell them to a vendor? Not even CLOSE to what people sell stuff on the Auction House for.
So they already have a "value" attached to every item that can be traded / sold. Why not use that value as a hard CAP on the auction house (and even in player to player trades and mail)
They could easily incorporate some supply and demand features that would bump the price cap up a bit if the item is rare, etc.
That would be great since they would have power over that. Lol why haven't they done this? With everything inflated now though, if they put caps on the items wouldn't things sell of like hotcakes? Like I dunno I haven't played in a while, but let's say their silk on AH sells for 4gold, but now all of a sudden they cap the vendors and AH to 25 silver. Since there's so much currency around already wouldn't those sell a little too fast, to the point where no one would get a chance to buy those items. And the thought that maybe people would just lazily sell to NPC's instead?
Or are you talking about a cap that is like not more than X% over the NPC's value? That would be some good control and I think I'd enjoy the game more at that point, hoping that people would at that point still find it worthwhile to sell stuff at the AH.
It's cool I get your point on not bringing the harsh reality to games where those with money get an advantage. Although personally and as we've seen on TV monetary possesion doesn't always equate to happiness although most of us would be much happier with a few extra bucks in our pockets :P
I like to think of the integrated market servers as a catering to those striving to make a few bucks while playing. I mean I'm sure the average gamer would like a few bucks in their pocket by doing something they love. The tedium of the careers most of us get stuck with is way worse than that of grinding in a game, and to give someone the possibillity to maybe pay some bills having fun in this virtual world is a pretty cool thought. It brings a new meaning to investing time and heart into a game.
I think it's just another way to look at it, it definately wouldn't cater to all players, but I do think it's unfair to look down on other players that scenario would cater to.
Probably the cheaper of the developments as far Blizzards costs are, would be the solution you mentioned. I don't think Blizzard is lacking in any monetary means though. And man I love that, I love to see how successful Blizzard is, to create something that people like so much and to employ so many people to do what they love as well.
We'll see what Blizzard does do about this situation. But for myself, I'm just waiting for an MMO that'll be as good as WoW and support the in-game market. (I tried EQ2 a few times and really didn't like it) Blizzard FTW!
It's also awesome to see their brain child Diablo2 still having a pretty hot market. Although I'd rather an integrated market with that, it's very impressive to see how well it's holding off. :P
All I can say is that I hope they catch you and ban you.
They don't really want to ban gold buyers... there are far too many of us. And we are very lucrative for them. I play maybe 2-10hrs a week, usually closer to 2 to 4 hrs. Blizz is making money hand over fist on me and the tens of thousands of other gold buyers. My kind consumes very few RL resources from Blizzard.
Maybe then you'll look outside the box and realize that people like you are the reason for the inflation we see in the markets.
Nope, the problem is securely in the box. The WOW box. Or maybe the big Blizzard box on Adams Ave.
It's a circle.
1. Things become overpriced due to player greed. That's fine, only an idiot would buy something that is way way way overpriced.
Yes yes, greed is much more palatable than cheating, much more tasty... and I'm an idiot now as well as a cheater, apparently, based on your inference. Now we're finally getting to the name-calling part.
2. People then buy gold to buy these overpriced goods.
3. People then realize they can actually sell things at inflated prices. So they keep bumping up the price.
4. Repeat step 1.
Your 'circle' is called a free market economy. Have you noticed the price of milk in RL lately? But WOW's economy is based on a broken supply & demand model.
So then you have way too much gold in the economy, so Blizzard makes things like Epic flying mounts and training cost more gold then a casual gamer will ever see. So the gold buying cheater thus directly influences the inflation of the price of goods in the game economy.
Yes yes again. Blizzard reacts to and further propagates their broken supply & demand model instead of fixing it. Make no mistake, however, fixing it is no simple or easy thing. The fix goes right down to the psychological core of the MMO gaming model- mammalian conditioning to consistent action and randomized reward. Blizzard doesn't want to screw with their incarnation of this age old model because it has proven to be massively lucrative for them, so they tolerate the minor inconvenience of gold buyers/sellers and the relatively minor gameplay consequences they have in their world. Afterall, as someone previously so eloquently stated, if the problems were that big, there wouldn't be 10,000,000 subscribers and growing. Blizzard also tosses out the occassional bone to quell the disturbed masses by posting a message strongly discouraging gold buying or another announcement about how they've banned 500,000 farming accounts.
Can you not see this? You admit to cheating because you have more fun. I'm glad you are having fun, but having fun at the expense of others is not a good thing.
Now, now Heerobya, it's a pretend world, I'm just pretend cheating. But you're right. I repent. Wait, that was just pretend repenting...
If you cannot see this, then you are beyond hope and I pray that your account is banned.
Do you think in-game markets would alleviate the inflation...
Originally posted by heerobya
I know EQ2 has servers with RMT (real money transactions) so you'd have to ask someone who plays on those servers.
I just think it's an unfair advantage. Like most things in Real life, the person with more money has the advantage. Why extend that harsh reality to the gaming world? We all pay our monthly fee, we should have the same access to goods.
I've always thought that Blizzard needs to put some controls on the market. Think of it this way, how much do goods sell for if you sell them to a vendor? Not even CLOSE to what people sell stuff on the Auction House for.
So they already have a "value" attached to every item that can be traded / sold. Why not use that value as a hard CAP on the auction house (and even in player to player trades and mail)
They could easily incorporate some supply and demand features that would bump the price cap up a bit if the item is rare, etc.
See here, Heerobya, now you're crackin'! The problem stems from Blizzards poor supply/demand model and should be fixed there. Then the gold harvesters/sellers are out of job and I have no need to buy gold.
In response to your question, dtportnoy69, would an RMT server entice me? No. Because Blizzard and SOE did such a great job of convincing nearly the entire player community that RMT (Real Money Transactions) are an unforgiveable sin that there is a stigma associated with those servers. Rumor has it that only evil-doers play there. I play with many people who are not nearly as prepared or willing as I am to buck the system by spending RL money on gold, so they'd never come over with me to a stigmatized RMT server.
Studies have also demonstrated that the implementation of RMT servers by SOE for EQII had little effect on the RL gold trade for non-rmt EQII servers.
Well people being able to buy gold/platinum/credits or whatever might be as you say gaining an unfair advantage but then you might as well say people being able to play 6 hours a day everyday is gaining an unfair advantage over the ones that can play 2 hours a week, life is unfair get over it
I see it was mentioned about eq2's rmt servers, not sure the one i play on is one but i think it is a good thing, if you like to spend real cash you can do so "legaly", even funcom has put in paid points in anarchy online that you then can use for flying vehicles for instance.
I like to play a lot of different chars in a game, i mean why pay for wow and only play one class on one side, so with like all classes on 2 servers grinding cash is getting really nasty, sure now you might say stop playing many and only play one single toon, would love to but that burns me out fast leading me to stop playing all together.
I do agree that some of the sellers i noticed in game some time ago was really nasty spamming you but the service i used a few times never did any in game advertising what so ever, to me the spamming is more anoying then the fact that people buy cash/items/chars.
I wonder how many people in wow share account info which is also against the rules, but many do cause they might need that priest for a raid or tank, don't see many people complain about that even though the owner of that char might gain items he should not have cause he/she was not playing.
I played on a pvp server and well even standing a chance you needed some good stuff, and while stuff in the outlands are rather good even quest rewards the 50+ levels before that is not as good, not that it matters much if you have great gear when the attacker almost always was 30+ levels above you.
Considering many game companys today seem hell bent on driving the player insane no wonder you enable cheat modes, having to redo the same thing for 20+ times is not even remotely fun, Tomb raider was a good example where you can't even enable cheats without a time trial, that i for one never managed to complete
You try to turn my arguments around one me, but all you do is further incriminate yourself.
You sounds more and more like a lazy gamer who would rather cheat their way to the top then actually play the game.
Yes, I agree with you that the principles of the WoW in-game economy (and actually every in-game economy I have seen in a MMORPG) are way, way off.
In real life, people's greed and ambition are limited by their situation, resources, eductation, etc. In a game, these factors don't matter near as much or not at all, so people become greedy SOBs online because they don't have to answer for their actions in any way, shape or form.
This causes massive economic inflation, and because the resources and money are all virtual, people spend them like it's going out of style...
It's like playing Monopoly with 1 game board but the paper cash from 1,000 game boxes. "Sure I'll buy Park Place for 2.3 million dollars!"
MMO economies, just like real market economies, need some system of control. The MMO system of control is money sinks.. repair costs, travel costs, upkeep, etc. but it's never been enough to offset the supply of in game currency and the greed of the market.
Hence why I said that they need to enforce price caps based off of real value. Real supply and demand. The WoW economy is broken because WE broke it, not Blizzard.
I'll use this example again, how much can you sell stuff to vendors for compared to on the Auction house? Even a somewhat common item, like Large Prismatic Shards sell on the Auction House for like 20-25 gold on my server. The vendor price is barely over 1 gold I think.
Blizzard gave all the items that could be sold real-world values. Then we completely screwed up the economy, and in The Burning Crusade instead of taking the time to fix the economy, they just added to the inflation by increasing quest reward money, loot drops, money drops etc.
We broke it, Blizzard failed to fix it, so we continued to break it.
Buying gold only ADDS to the problem.
You are helping no one but yourself by buying gold, and hurting more then you think.
This debate is as unwinnable as the debates about PvP rule-sets.
I have bought gold. And would do so again. I work 60+ hours a week, have a great social life, and other hobbies besides MMOs (like golf, some of you may want to get outdoors once in a while). The people who are so righteous about the evil gold buyers, and how they are "cheaters" are people who have 20+ hours a week to play these games. And yes I realize this point has been stated ad nauseum as well.
And I agree completely with the above post about RMT servers, they have become so stigmatized they are useless. I will admit however that I left WoW over a year and a half ago and the gold selling spamming was not an issue then. I can imagine it would be infuriating in-game to get those tells.
The bottom line is my money = your free time spent in game. I simply don't have equal free time and you don't have equal money. So I am just leveling the playing field is all. If that ruins the extremely simplistic "economy" in your opinion then so be it. This issue will never, ever go away.
This debate is as unwinnable as the debates about PvP rule-sets.
I have bought gold. And would do so again. I work 60+ hours a week, have a great social life, and other hobbies besides MMOs (like golf, some of you may want to get outdoors once in a while). The people who are so righteous about the evil gold buyers, and how they are "cheaters" are people who have 20+ hours a week to play these games. And yes I realize this point has been stated ad nauseum as well.
And I agree completely with the above post about RMT servers, they have become so stigmatized they are useless. I will admit however that I left WoW over a year and a half ago and the gold selling spamming was not an issue then. I can imagine it would be infuriating in-game to get those tells. The bottom line is my money = your free time spent in game. I simply don't have equal free time and you don't have equal money. So I am just leveling the playing field is all. If that ruins the extremely simplistic "economy" in your opinion then so be it. This issue will never, ever go away. -Flame away.
Old argument and not a good one. Your lack of free time compared to others does not give you the RIGHT to do anything. I have more time to play, ergo I have more crap than you due to my time spent. Does this make me a bad person or someone who does not have equal money? No.
People like you need to learn patience and realize your lack of free time doesn't mean you won't obtain your loots, rep, whatever, it just means it will take you longer in real time. Suck it up.
We all pay to play and follow the same rules. If you do not have the patience to play by the set rules, then find a game where you can achieve more with the time you do have instead of contributing problems to other people.
Basically it boils down to, can you look beyond your own nose?
This debate is as unwinnable as the debates about PvP rule-sets.
I have bought gold. And would do so again. I work 60+ hours a week, have a great social life, and other hobbies besides MMOs (like golf, some of you may want to get outdoors once in a while). The people who are so righteous about the evil gold buyers, and how they are "cheaters" are people who have 20+ hours a week to play these games. And yes I realize this point has been stated ad nauseum as well.
And I agree completely with the above post about RMT servers, they have become so stigmatized they are useless. I will admit however that I left WoW over a year and a half ago and the gold selling spamming was not an issue then. I can imagine it would be infuriating in-game to get those tells. The bottom line is my money = your free time spent in game. I simply don't have equal free time and you don't have equal money. So I am just leveling the playing field is all. If that ruins the extremely simplistic "economy" in your opinion then so be it. This issue will never, ever go away. -Flame away.
Old argument and not a good one. Your lack of free time compared to others does not give you the RIGHT to do anything. I have more time to play, ergo I have more crap than you due to my time spent. Does this make me a bad person or someone who does not have equal money? No.
People like you need to learn patience and realize your lack of free time doesn't mean you won't obtain your loots, rep, whatever, it just means it will take you longer in real time. Suck it up.
We all pay to play and follow the same rules. If you do not have the patience to play by the set rules, then find a game where you can achieve more with the time you do have instead of contributing problems to other people.
Basically it boils down to, can you look beyond your own nose?
GREAT POINTS! Man, that is what I have been doing wrong all of these years! If I was just more patient I would get everything I needed. If I was more patient I wouldn't have to grind long hours away (once again that I don't have) to obtain the items I need to even be slightly competitive! I see it now, you are spot on buddy!
And since you summed it up so eloquently, "can I look beyond my own nose?". Um no. I'm not playing a n MMO (which I have been playing since college and UO when I DID have all the free time in the world to play) for some ridiculous sense of "doing the right thing", for that I will give to charity, not play WoW. I am playing because I enjoy it, I enjoy playing with my friends, I enjoy the MMO model, I enjoy PvP, etc, etc, etc.
And ultimately, I never said I had any RIGHT. I said I have done it and will do it again. Based on the time-sink model of all currrent MMO's, this issue will never go away. You are living in a fantasy world if you think so.
You try to turn my arguments around one me, but all you do is further incriminate yourself.
I don't need to further incriminate myself... accept... wait a moment! I'm not a criminal!!! I've already regular admitted and supported that by Blizzards definition and yours, I am a "cheater." That is your perspective and Blizzards, I have no argument with it and I readily acknowledge your position. "Cheater" as a label that pertains to WoW has no value to me, so call me a cheater. It matters not.
Again, though, just because it is your definition and Blizzards definition doesn't mean I agree with the principle behind it. To be perfectly clear, I don't. As for "... turning my arguments around on me,..." yes, that is true, and I'm doing quite a good job at it, if I don't say so myself. But only because your arguments have many, many holes in them that allow for said "turning around" thank you very much.
You sounds more and more like a lazy gamer who would rather cheat their way to the top then actually play the game.
--- blah blah blah blah, did you not read before that I've never had a character in 3 years of playing WOW above level 27? Granted, I may be the exception there as far as gold buying goes. Yet another way in which I do not measure up to the WoW elite. It matters not. I despise grinding, it's a useless time sink... that's the only way to get beyond 30. It's a broken game mechanic. Thankfully, the lower level game is a blast- especially with a lot of extra gold!
Blizzard states their driving goal for their games is something like, "Easy to start, hard to master." They've "cheated" by delivering on that goal only by implementing mind-numbing grinding. There is no skill in grinding. There is no "mastery" involved. Buying gold helps a little bit to alleviate some of the ridiculous tedium in an otherwise mind-boggling and amazing world that I love.
Yes, I agree with you that the principles of the WoW in-game economy (and actually every in-game economy I have seen in a MMORPG) are way, way off.
Good... good... I feel your lust for power... let it go, heerobya, embrace it! Now-- now you are getting it my young apprentice. Come to the darkside. Make your journey complete and we will rule all of Azeroth together! Feel the power of limitless gold... feeeeeel it.... yes... yeeeessss....
In real life, people's greed and ambition are limited by their situation, resources, eductation, etc.
Did you actually just lump "greed" and "ambition" together? Good grief, I'm glad you don't work for NASA.
In a game, these factors don't matter near as much or not at all, so people become greedy SOBs online because they don't have to answer for their actions in any way, shape or form.
This causes massive economic inflation, and because the resources and money are all virtual, people spend them like it's going out of style...
Huh? You just said that it is the greedy, lazy and ambitious people like me that cause inflation! But you said earlier that it is the way, way off principles of the WoW in-game economy. Which is it? Just to clear things up here. Fundamental problems with the supply & demand model in WoW are the basis for inflation. Blizzard makes the rules, they program the game. It's not RL. They have complete control over this mechanic. Blizzard is 100% responsible for the mess, not the players. As so many have stated quite clearly, "Blizzard makes the rules." I'm just playing by the rules (the code) they made. It's called leverage.
It's like playing Monopoly with 1 game board but the paper cash from 1,000 game boxes. "Sure I'll buy Park Place for 2.3 million dollars!"
That's Awsome! I want to play that game!
MMO economies, just like real market economies, need some system of control. The MMO system of control is money sinks.. repair costs, travel costs, upkeep, etc. but it's never been enough to offset the supply of in game currency and the greed of the market.
Again, and to quote you one more time, "... but it's never enough to offset the supply of in game currency and the greed of the market." That means it's broken. Who coded this game? Who wrote the rules of the in-game economy? Who programmed this? It's not RL. It's 100% code. It is changeable by a staff of brilliant programmers behind the game. So, if there is too much supply of in-game currency then that problem rests completely on Blizzard. To be frank, however, 'too much currency' is only a symptom of a broken economic and gameplay model.
Hence why I said that they need to enforce price caps based off of real value. Real supply and demand. The WoW economy is broken because WE broke it, not Blizzard.
Did you really say that? I thought someone else said that... hmmm... well regardless, wrong again!!! WoW is a program. It is broken because the programmers & designers didn't implement said controls. People will go where the programmers let them go. Period. That is a programming problem... and a leverage blessing for me!
I'll use this example again, how much can you sell stuff to vendors for compared to on the Auction house? Even a somewhat common item, like Large Prismatic Shards sell on the Auction House for like 20-25 gold on my server. The vendor price is barely over 1 gold I think.
Blizzard gave all the items that could be sold real-world values. Then we completely screwed up the economy, and in The Burning Crusade instead of taking the time to fix the economy, they just added to the inflation by increasing quest reward money, loot drops, money drops etc.
Wrong yet one more time. Blizzard PROGRAMMED the ability to allow player-to-player trade, gold for items with no currency cap just like they PROGRAMMED the ability for players to trade items for gold to vendors WITH a currency cap. Blizzard implemented a free market economy without controls. Blizzard implemented the Auction House. Blizzard broke it.
We broke it, Blizzard failed to fix it, so we continued to break it.
Blizzard broke it with a cherry on top! We took advantage of that brokenness. And they didn't fix it. So we continue to leverage the holes.
Buying gold only ADDS to the problem.
You are helping no one but yourself by buying gold, and hurting more then you think.
Buying gold fixes the problem- for me.
Ok, ok, but it's just pretend hurting. They can eleviate the pretend hurting by buying some pretend gold. If anyone gets so wrapped up in this game that the stress of it carries into RL, that's an entirely different problem altogether- they need RL help or they should leave the game. Real life is worth much much more than stressing out over a game. Really.
But wait a sec before you respond to that.... that's a topic for a new thread, not this one, please.
This debate is as unwinnable as the debates about PvP rule-sets.
I have bought gold. And would do so again. I work 60+ hours a week, have a great social life, and other hobbies besides MMOs (like golf, some of you may want to get outdoors once in a while). The people who are so righteous about the evil gold buyers, and how they are "cheaters" are people who have 20+ hours a week to play these games. And yes I realize this point has been stated ad nauseum as well.
And I agree completely with the above post about RMT servers, they have become so stigmatized they are useless. I will admit however that I left WoW over a year and a half ago and the gold selling spamming was not an issue then. I can imagine it would be infuriating in-game to get those tells. The bottom line is my money = your free time spent in game. I simply don't have equal free time and you don't have equal money. So I am just leveling the playing field is all. If that ruins the extremely simplistic "economy" in your opinion then so be it. This issue will never, ever go away. -Flame away.
Old argument and not a good one. Your lack of free time compared to others does not give you the RIGHT to do anything. I have more time to play, ergo I have more crap than you due to my time spent. Does this make me a bad person or someone who does not have equal money? No.
People like you need to learn patience and realize your lack of free time doesn't mean you won't obtain your loots, rep, whatever, it just means it will take you longer in real time. Suck it up.
We all pay to play and follow the same rules. If you do not have the patience to play by the set rules, then find a game where you can achieve more with the time you do have instead of contributing problems to other people.
Basically it boils down to, can you look beyond your own nose?
GREAT POINTS! Man, that is what I have been doing wrong all of these years! If I was just more patient I would get everything I needed. If I was more patient I wouldn't have to grind long hours away (once again that I don't have) to obtain the items I need to even be slightly competitive! I see it now, you are spot on buddy!
And since you summed it up so eloquently, "can I look beyond my own nose?". Um no. I'm not playing a n MMO (which I have been playing since college and UO when I DID have all the free time in the world to play) for some ridiculous sense of "doing the right thing", for that I will give to charity, not play WoW. I am playing because I enjoy it, I enjoy playing with my friends, I enjoy the MMO model, I enjoy PvP, etc, etc, etc.
And ultimately, I never said I had any RIGHT. I said I have done it and will do it again. Based on the time-sink model of all currrent MMO's, this issue will never go away. You are living in a fantasy world if you think so.
Please, cut the sarcasm. It is unwarranted.
Yes MMOs are a time sink, but like anything in life, you shouldn't be getting something for nothing and buying gold is just that. You think you have to buy gold to stay competitive. Why should you have the same gear, rep, etc. etc as other people who have put more time in? You shouldn't. That is like saying a new hire at your job should be making the same amount as someone who has been with the company for a few years.
Awards come with time, that is where the dedication and patience comes into play.
Like I said, find a game where you can achieve more with the time you do have to spend gaming instead of adding problems to the game for others just cause you want to play too!!
This debate is as unwinnable as the debates about PvP rule-sets.
I have bought gold. And would do so again. I work 60+ hours a week, have a great social life, and other hobbies besides MMOs (like golf, some of you may want to get outdoors once in a while). The people who are so righteous about the evil gold buyers, and how they are "cheaters" are people who have 20+ hours a week to play these games. And yes I realize this point has been stated ad nauseum as well.
And I agree completely with the above post about RMT servers, they have become so stigmatized they are useless. I will admit however that I left WoW over a year and a half ago and the gold selling spamming was not an issue then. I can imagine it would be infuriating in-game to get those tells. The bottom line is my money = your free time spent in game. I simply don't have equal free time and you don't have equal money. So I am just leveling the playing field is all. If that ruins the extremely simplistic "economy" in your opinion then so be it. This issue will never, ever go away. -Flame away.
Old argument and not a good one. Your lack of free time compared to others does not give you the RIGHT to do anything. I have more time to play, ergo I have more crap than you due to my time spent. Does this make me a bad person or someone who does not have equal money? No.
People like you need to learn patience and realize your lack of free time doesn't mean you won't obtain your loots, rep, whatever, it just means it will take you longer in real time. Suck it up.
We all pay to play and follow the same rules. If you do not have the patience to play by the set rules, then find a game where you can achieve more with the time you do have instead of contributing problems to other people.
Basically it boils down to, can you look beyond your own nose?
GREAT POINTS! Man, that is what I have been doing wrong all of these years! If I was just more patient I would get everything I needed. If I was more patient I wouldn't have to grind long hours away (once again that I don't have) to obtain the items I need to even be slightly competitive! I see it now, you are spot on buddy!
And since you summed it up so eloquently, "can I look beyond my own nose?". Um no. I'm not playing a n MMO (which I have been playing since college and UO when I DID have all the free time in the world to play) for some ridiculous sense of "doing the right thing", for that I will give to charity, not play WoW. I am playing because I enjoy it, I enjoy playing with my friends, I enjoy the MMO model, I enjoy PvP, etc, etc, etc.
And ultimately, I never said I had any RIGHT. I said I have done it and will do it again. Based on the time-sink model of all currrent MMO's, this issue will never go away. You are living in a fantasy world if you think so.
Please, cut the sarcasm. It is unwarranted.
Yes MMOs are a time sink, but like anything in life, you shouldn't be getting something for nothing and buying gold is just that. You think you have to buy gold to stay competitive. Why should you have the same gear, rep, etc. etc as other people who have put more time in? You shouldn't. That is like saying a new hire at your job should be making the same amount as someone who has been with the company for a few years.
Awards come with time, that is where the dedication and patience comes into play.
Like I said, find a game where you can achieve more with the time you do have to spend gaming instead of adding problems to the game for others just cause you want to play too!!
I feel no compassion, sorry.
Nah you feel no compassion, that is not saying you can take pride in it. Its simply a fact that you have violated your obligation as expressed in the User Agreement, and you indicated your intention to keep violating it. Its an issue of legal wrong doing, whether you feel compassion or not.
While we do not expect legal enforcement as a result of these posting, it does reflect poorly on the integrity of you as a gamer. Blaming all these on the game structure is just a bad excuse. Can you justify killing and robbing banks b/c market capitalism rewards the haves more than the have-nots. No, I do not think so. Games are grind, if you do not want to grind, you can stop playing. But accepting the User Agreement, participate in the game and violating the Agreement? No, that is not a honorable way of gaming.
I wonder if we reference news like this when they move to a business model like SoE's(servers where you can buy gold, levels, gear, etc.), if they'll ban people by the truckload much like they do for anything else they see fit?
Heh jasco20...you sound like a kind of person who buys an singleplayer game, cheats to complete it and then toss the game away.
Silly slask777, ah-shucks, trying to bate me into a flame war. I'm truly flattered.
hehe, its art...forum art
Anyway, I stand by my opinion. You do indeed sound like a lousy gamer, and I'm glad I wont have to deal with you, and your peers ingame. You are as infuriating as those people that use bots/cheats/godmodes in online fps games. Gamebreakers them too.
Yes MMOs are a time sink, but like anything in life, you shouldn't be getting something for nothing and buying gold is just that.
When I buy gold... I'm not getting something for nothing. You spend RL time grinding away. I spend RL time + money and game time. I'm paying MORE than you. I spend my own RL time making my $$$, then I spend a few of those dollars to buy gold. But buying gold does not negate the work required to level, it just eases the mind-numbing tedium of useless grinding a little bit. So, I spend RL time making money to buy the gold. You spend RL time grinding for the gold. We're both spending time. Neither one of us is getting something for nothing.
You think you have to buy gold to stay competitive.
I have no desire, no intention, not even a drop of motivation to stay competitive with anyone in WoW. It's just not what drives me. If you're into cock-strutting, fine, more power to ya- go look really pretty with your uber-gear. You have every right to do so. It's not my gig though. I don't value the uber gear to strut around like the dominant rooster of the pack. I have no interest in keeping up with the joneses in WoW, means nothing to me. I value gear for the stats for the PvE game. I don't give a rats arse what it looks like- it's about the gameplay for me, not comparing my package with yours. I'm well beyond the pre-pubescent pissing matches in life. Who made the rule that WoW is a competitive game? Yeah yeah, blah blah blah--- PvP, but it's voluntary--- it's a feature, not a rule.
Why should you have the same gear, rep, etc. etc as other people who have put more time in? You shouldn't. That is like saying a new hire at your job should be making the same amount as someone who has been with the company for a few years.
Not sure what industry you're working in, but in professional industries, new hires frequently get paid more than longer term employees based on education, talent, experience and skill, OR more frequently, based on who they know in the company. That's why people move companies so frequently today- employees now average less than 3 years spent at any 1 company, because moving companies is the fastest way to growth. Is that cheating? Is it cheating to get hired making more money based on who you know? Of course not, it's called leverage. Buying gold is leverage for me that makes the game more enjoyable for me. Hmmm... something to think about. Life in a free-market economy works that way. It is as it is. Of course, maybe you would prefer a socialist-communist economy, where everyone gets the same loaf of bread no matter what job they do.... except the elite ruling class that is... hmmm....
Awards come with time, that is where the dedication and patience comes into play. Like I said, find a game where you can achieve more with the time you do have to spend gaming instead of adding problems to the game for others just cause you want to play too!!
I like WoW. I pay to play WoW just like you. I also pay extra to play. How is your RL time grinding more valuable than my RL time + RL money? That's just screwy.
I feel no compassion, sorry.
Not at all interested in your compassion- means nothing to me.
Anyway, I stand by my opinion. You do indeed sound like a lousy gamer, and I'm glad I wont have to deal with you, and your peers ingame.
Can't remember, you still in WoW, slask777? If so, how do you know you don't have to deal with me. I'm very sneaky sneaky, you know. I suppose the blessing for all of you is that I'm a low level gamer in WoW... so, you've never had to deal with me over level 27... no biggy. And you'll never have to deal with me on a raid- I don't raid. Nor in a guild. I despise guilds. Nor in the high-end game- I'm just not interested in wasting my RL time grinding my way there- grinding sux.
You are as infuriating as those people that use bots/cheats/godmodes in online fps games. Gamebreakers them too.
hehe, it's art... game art. So you were one of my victims in CS, eh? Yeah, I was the sneaky camping sniper that pwned ya... Very satisfying indeed.
Yes MMOs are a time sink, but like anything in life, you shouldn't be getting something for nothing and buying gold is just that. You think you have to buy gold to stay competitive. Why should you have the same gear, rep, etc. etc as other people who have put more time in? You shouldn't. That is like saying a new hire at your job should be making the same amount as someone who has been with the company for a few years. Awards come with time, that is where the dedication and patience comes into play. Like I said, find a game where you can achieve more with the time you do have to spend gaming instead of adding problems to the game for others just cause you want to play too!! I feel no compassion, sorry.
Well if i take a game like everquest even if you buy platinum there you will never be as good or have the gear the raiders do(people that spend 5-6 days 4+ hours a day online), just for the simple fact it is nodrop, even when i bought some of the best stuff in the bazaar for my shaman and i felt i did a nice upgrade on him i was not even close to the raiders, they where supreme to me in areas like hp/mana/ac they had more then twice of it.
And you can't buy the flags/keys needed to enter said raid zones either, having money makes the low level game a lot more fun, especially in eq where the lowlevels are lonely to say the least, the few lowlevels around are mostly twinks of higher level people and they tend to not need groups of similar level players cause they have a lvl 70 in tow.
As for wow i can see why people buy gold, right now after i restarted i make just enough cash to buy the next set of spells haven't bought anything from AH yet since everything is just to expensive or nothing availible below lvl 10, i do miss my lvl 60 hunter that i deleted in anger, guess you should not do that kind of stuff when angry
I'm with Jasco20 on this one. Buying gold does not wreck the economy. If it did, WoW would not have 10 million subscribers. If you don't want to lose all the stuff from the level 60 character you bought, change the account password.
First off, it is conservatively estimated that about 10-15% of the asian market subscribers are gold farmers. To put that into raw numbers, there are approx 8 mil subs in asia and if "only" 10% are gold farmers that's 800,000 accounts that are doing nothing but farming gold.
Second, buying gold does ruin the economy. To say otherwise shows that either (1) you don't understand or (2) you don't care. Blizzard designs a game that money will enter the economy at a certain rate and people will level within certain parameters. The farmers over camp an area for loots, thus making it harder for me to get said loots as a legitimate player. They will then sell these loots in the AH for inflated prices and since *I* can't get them, I am forced to buy them. This then inflates the prices further. I try not to buy from gold farmers but it's not like you can always tell from a character name, if they are online and level one selling epic items, I don't buy as an example.
Next the "change the password" thing works .... if you have only 1 character on the entire account. So they powerleveled your warlock, but oh lookie they stripped your warrior and shaman of everything first. After all, it's not like YOU are going to report them right?
Buying gold or powerleveling services is a form of cheating. Don't agree with me that's fine, but that little wordy text that you clicked "I Agree" to? It says it's cheating and it says you do it your account goes *poof*. So try to rationalize it all you want Blizzard says don't do it, you agreed not to do it and if you get caught you deserve to have your 70 warlock with 1000 free gold and epic mount get deleted.
I'm with Jasco20 on this one. Buying gold does not wreck the economy. If it did, WoW would not have 10 million subscribers. If you don't want to lose all the stuff from the level 60 character you bought, change the account password.
First off, it is conservatively estimated ......
First off, it is conservatively estimated that about 10-15% of the asian market subscribers are gold farmers. To put that into raw numbers, there are approx 8 mil subs in asia and if "only" 10% are gold farmers that's 800,000 accounts that are doing nothing but farming gold.
Is this one of those "Everybody knows it.." things or do you actually have a link to a page to support your numbers?
Second, buying gold does ruin the economy. To say otherwise shows that either (1) you don't understand or (2) you don't care. Blizzard designs a game that money will enter the economy at a certain rate and people will level within certain parameters. The farmers over camp an area for loots, thus making it harder for me to get said loots as a legitimate player. They will then sell these loots in the AH for inflated prices and since *I* can't get them, I am forced to buy them.
-- You're right... Blizzard should definitely fix this poor supply & demand model.
This then inflates the prices further. I try not to buy from gold farmers but it's not like you can always tell from a character name, if they are online and level one selling epic items, I don't buy as an example.
A little help for you here. Ever hear the word "mule?" Many, many, many players roll up a level 1 character they use as a mule for the AH... who receives loot from their other characters and sells it on the AH or stores it.
Next the "change the password" thing works .... if you have only 1 character on the entire account. So they powerleveled your warlock, but oh lookie they stripped your warrior and shaman of everything first. After all, it's not like YOU are going to report them right?
Again, anyone who provides their account username/password to anyone for any reason is begging for trouble.
Buying gold or powerleveling services is a form of cheating. Don't agree with me that's fine, but that little wordy text that you clicked "I Agree" to? It says it's cheating and it says you do it your account goes *poof*. So try to rationalize it all you want Blizzard says don't do it, you agreed not to do it and if you get caught you deserve to have your 70 warlock with 1000 free gold and epic mount get deleted.
I'm not seeing anyone arguing this point... the person you quoted said nothing about cheating. What's this have to do with your position? You are just ranting... which is fine, no offense taken.
1. Blizzard says buying gold is against their Terms of Service. You break those terms, you risk losing your account.
That's it. Those are the only facts. The rest is opinion.
Does it hurt the in-game economy? Maybe. The economy does a lot to hurt itself.
Does it give an unfair advantage to the gold-buying player? I think you can't argue that the answer to this question is "Yes."
Smartly, most all of the "good" gear and items in WoW are Bind on Pickup. Which means you can't buy them from others, you can only loot them or earn them as PvP rewards, etc.
And Jasco you have never gotten a character past level 27? That is what you said yes?
There is NO point to buying gold at that point. Honestly, if you buy gold at that level it's totally wasted. Nothing that you need at that level is expensive, and I believe you are wasting your real life money buying gold at that level and risking your account security / standing for very little possible gain.
I think Blizzard is now moving towards "reward players" mode before the new expansion. Think about it. Good PvP gear much easier to obtain, more daily quests = easier money and better rewards, more small group and small raid content to get players better gear.
They are trying to "help" people become well geared and make money and finally "achieve" the things they have been trying to achieve for some time. Why? Because they know as well as we do that once the new expansion hits and the level cap is raised to 80, all the stuff and "work" we've done so far doesn't really have meaning, because just like with The Burning Crusade, the new expansion will be a "reset" across the board.
Personally, I like the reset. It sucks having MMO envy. The expansion reset puts us all on even ground again.
That is what I really don't understand about gold buying. I feel it's a sign of impatience. We know in a MMORPG things change often. Why spend real life money on stuff that 6 months or whatever from now will be worth nothing?
Play the game, enjoy it, and don't sweat about the stuff you can't get to / afford right now.
What I don't understand is their methodology. They have a lot of GMs trained to be very nice to players and have a pleasant little conversation with everyone who petitions and actually manages to wait through the hour-plus CS queue. This pollite conversation is often quite pointless and is mainly a chance for the GM to ask you to give good feedback.
If they REALLY cared about gold selling and actual results, it would make a lot more sense to have one GM on each server patrol the major cities and ban the account of every gold spammer. They are bold as daylight, standing in front of every bank, so they would be easy to catch, and it would make a big difference.
But no. They would rather have cheerful conversations with players so they can claim to have good customer service.
1. Blizzard says buying gold is against their Terms of Service. You break those terms, you risk losing your account.
That's it. Those are the only facts. The rest is opinion.
Maybe I'm missing it... but after reviewing the thread, I didn't see any posts that dispute the risk involved in breaking the TOS...
Does it hurt the in-game economy? Maybe. The economy does a lot to hurt itself.
Does it give an unfair advantage to the gold-buying player? I think you can't argue that the answer to this question is "Yes."
Smartly, most all of the "good" gear and items in WoW are Bind on Pickup. Which means you can't buy them from others, you can only loot them or earn them as PvP rewards, etc.
I think I can argue this point and I will. Unfair in what respect? The PvE game in WoW is non-competitive EXCEPT by player creation, there is some unspoken 'competition' to get the best gear, look the best, be the most 'l33t.' No where is it a "fact" of gameplay that this comparitive "competition" is requirement of the gameplay. In fact, there is no reward for it other than some feel-good cock-strutting for those who enjoy such things. More power to you by the way, whatever floats your boat.
And even you note here, Heerobya, "most all 'good' gear and items in WoW are Bind on Pickup." So clearly, it is those players who don't buy gold and don't depend on the AH who have the advantage! "Fair," right? So the game is bent, broken toward grinding for gear, or toward PvP for the best gear... that's fine, but that just means I have no unfair advantage at all since I despise grinding for bind on pickup and PvP gear. I will obviously miss out on the most awesome cock-strutting gear out there and by not partaking of that element of gameplay, I leave much more supply to you. So see, I'm actually helping other players by buying gold- I stay out of the market for the best gear! Thank you for making my argument for me. Very nice of you!
And Jasco you have never gotten a character past level 27? That is what you said yes?
There is NO point to buying gold at that point. Honestly, if you buy gold at that level it's totally wasted. Nothing that you need at that level is expensive, and I believe you are wasting your real life money buying gold at that level and risking your account security / standing for very little possible gain.
There is a "point" and you've missed it entirely, as if you've read nothing I've responded to in this thread. Go back and read again, if you're interested, maybe you can tune-in this time to a different perspective, because I've explained the "point" quite well, if I say so myself. For the sake of saving you the grind of going back through the game, I'll present it hear one more time. See how nice I am, so considerate of others.
Here it is one more time, whether you choose to recognize it or not -- the point-- I despise grinding. Buying gold offsets the mind-numbing tedium of grinding a little bit because it allows me to get into a little better gear, level a little faster, make a little more noticeable progress quicker since I CHOOSE to limit the amount of time I play this amazing game. I'm really just a sheep in wolf's clothing.
Buying the extra supply of gold allows me to buy mats for skilling, take part in the economic game at a fun level, spread around a little wealth in the context of a broken supply & demand model, which is just a lot of fun. Again, I've never had one complaint from someone when I've bought their stack of copper ore for 1g47s. I've never had one complaint from someone who has bought a stack of Elixir of Defense from my alchemist for 29s. Quite the contrary, people love that sort of thing- makes them feel very good. Everyone loves getting deals like that. YOU love getting deals like that! If you don't, well, I can only shrug my shoulders and roll my eyes at that.
I think Blizzard is now moving towards "reward players" mode before the new expansion. Think about it. Good PvP gear much easier to obtain, more daily quests = easier money and better rewards, more small group and small raid content to get players better gear.
Perhaps Blizzard is getting the message. Perhaps they are realizing how incomplete their programming is behind their economic model. Perhaps they are responding in humility, recognizing that it is they themselves who have created the demand for extra gold by implementing a poor supply and demand model. Perhaps, maybe, just maybe, they are taking responsibility and making moves to fix it. It's really simple. It's not easy, but it is simple. If Blizzard fixes their broken economic game mechanics in their otherwise absolutely beautiful, fun and amazing game, then the bottom will fall out of the out-of-game gold market.
They are trying to "help" people become well geared and make money and finally "achieve" the things they have been trying to achieve for some time. Why? Because they know as well as we do that once the new expansion hits and the level cap is raised to 80, all the stuff and "work" we've done so far doesn't really have meaning, because just like with The Burning Crusade, the new expansion will be a "reset" across the board.
Now, there's a topic for another discussion that has been discussed to no end! New expansion negates the hard work put in since the last expansion. I won't go there... I want to, but I won't... holding... myself.... back.... gah!!!
Personally, I like the reset. It sucks having MMO envy. The expansion reset puts us all on even ground again.
That is what I really don't understand about gold buying. I feel it's a sign of impatience. We know in a MMORPG things change often. Why spend real life money on stuff that 6 months or whatever from now will be worth nothing?
Impatience, yes. Grinding drives me crazy. It is a symptom of poor game design and nothing more than a very uncreative shortcut. (please, please, don't bother firing back with the petty, unintelligent ranting, "If you hate the game so much, just don't play it then!!!" Good grief, that is such a sad, tired song that it puts the other half of country music to shame. )
Grinding is a useless time sink in ANY game, it is an invention of MMO programming and there is no good reason for it. It is only and ever a symptom of lack of creativity in game design. If grinding were such a great feature and selling point, and were such a wonderful thing that so many gamers love, it would be placed prominently on the features list of retail game box! Seriously.
My time is more valuable than grinding. It's so valuable, in fact, that I'm willing to put some extra RL earned dollars toward saving some of it. Please understand, I'm not trying to convert anyone or convince anyone to the darkside if you don't want to go there. Please don't! Becuase, If you do, then gold prices will go up and that would be a bummer for me...
Play the game, enjoy it, and don't sweat about the stuff you can't get to / afford right now.
--- I do play the game, I do enjoy it. Because I buy the gold so I don't sweat the stuff I can't get to / afford right now.
Comments
I just think it's an unfair advantage. Like most things in Real life, the person with more money has the advantage. Why extend that harsh reality to the gaming world? We all pay our monthly fee, we should have the same access to goods.
I've always thought that Blizzard needs to put some controls on the market. Think of it this way, how much do goods sell for if you sell them to a vendor? Not even CLOSE to what people sell stuff on the Auction House for.
So they already have a "value" attached to every item that can be traded / sold. Why not use that value as a hard CAP on the auction house (and even in player to player trades and mail)
They could easily incorporate some supply and demand features that would bump the price cap up a bit if the item is rare, etc.
That would be great since they would have power over that. Lol why haven't they done this? With everything inflated now though, if they put caps on the items wouldn't things sell of like hotcakes? Like I dunno I haven't played in a while, but let's say their silk on AH sells for 4gold, but now all of a sudden they cap the vendors and AH to 25 silver. Since there's so much currency around already wouldn't those sell a little too fast, to the point where no one would get a chance to buy those items. And the thought that maybe people would just lazily sell to NPC's instead?Or are you talking about a cap that is like not more than X% over the NPC's value? That would be some good control and I think I'd enjoy the game more at that point, hoping that people would at that point still find it worthwhile to sell stuff at the AH.
It's cool I get your point on not bringing the harsh reality to games where those with money get an advantage. Although personally and as we've seen on TV monetary possesion doesn't always equate to happiness although most of us would be much happier with a few extra bucks in our pockets :P
I like to think of the integrated market servers as a catering to those striving to make a few bucks while playing. I mean I'm sure the average gamer would like a few bucks in their pocket by doing something they love. The tedium of the careers most of us get stuck with is way worse than that of grinding in a game, and to give someone the possibillity to maybe pay some bills having fun in this virtual world is a pretty cool thought. It brings a new meaning to investing time and heart into a game.
I think it's just another way to look at it, it definately wouldn't cater to all players, but I do think it's unfair to look down on other players that scenario would cater to.
Probably the cheaper of the developments as far Blizzards costs are, would be the solution you mentioned. I don't think Blizzard is lacking in any monetary means though. And man I love that, I love to see how successful Blizzard is, to create something that people like so much and to employ so many people to do what they love as well.
We'll see what Blizzard does do about this situation. But for myself, I'm just waiting for an MMO that'll be as good as WoW and support the in-game market. (I tried EQ2 a few times and really didn't like it) Blizzard FTW!
It's also awesome to see their brain child Diablo2 still having a pretty hot market. Although I'd rather an integrated market with that, it's very impressive to see how well it's holding off. :P
They don't really want to ban gold buyers... there are far too many of us. And we are very lucrative for them. I play maybe 2-10hrs a week, usually closer to 2 to 4 hrs. Blizz is making money hand over fist on me and the tens of thousands of other gold buyers. My kind consumes very few RL resources from Blizzard.
Nope, the problem is securely in the box. The WOW box. Or maybe the big Blizzard box on Adams Ave.
Yes yes, greed is much more palatable than cheating, much more tasty... and I'm an idiot now as well as a cheater, apparently, based on your inference. Now we're finally getting to the name-calling part.
Your 'circle' is called a free market economy. Have you noticed the price of milk in RL lately? But WOW's economy is based on a broken supply & demand model.
Now, now Heerobya, it's a pretend world, I'm just pretend cheating. But you're right. I repent. Wait, that was just pretend repenting...
Me thinks the Titans are not listening...
See here, Heerobya, now you're crackin'! The problem stems from Blizzards poor supply/demand model and should be fixed there. Then the gold harvesters/sellers are out of job and I have no need to buy gold.
In response to your question, dtportnoy69, would an RMT server entice me? No. Because Blizzard and SOE did such a great job of convincing nearly the entire player community that RMT (Real Money Transactions) are an unforgiveable sin that there is a stigma associated with those servers. Rumor has it that only evil-doers play there. I play with many people who are not nearly as prepared or willing as I am to buck the system by spending RL money on gold, so they'd never come over with me to a stigmatized RMT server.
Studies have also demonstrated that the implementation of RMT servers by SOE for EQII had little effect on the RL gold trade for non-rmt EQII servers.
Well people being able to buy gold/platinum/credits or whatever might be as you say gaining an unfair advantage but then you might as well say people being able to play 6 hours a day everyday is gaining an unfair advantage over the ones that can play 2 hours a week, life is unfair get over it
I see it was mentioned about eq2's rmt servers, not sure the one i play on is one but i think it is a good thing, if you like to spend real cash you can do so "legaly", even funcom has put in paid points in anarchy online that you then can use for flying vehicles for instance.
I like to play a lot of different chars in a game, i mean why pay for wow and only play one class on one side, so with like all classes on 2 servers grinding cash is getting really nasty, sure now you might say stop playing many and only play one single toon, would love to but that burns me out fast leading me to stop playing all together.
I do agree that some of the sellers i noticed in game some time ago was really nasty spamming you but the service i used a few times never did any in game advertising what so ever, to me the spamming is more anoying then the fact that people buy cash/items/chars.
I wonder how many people in wow share account info which is also against the rules, but many do cause they might need that priest for a raid or tank, don't see many people complain about that even though the owner of that char might gain items he should not have cause he/she was not playing.
I played on a pvp server and well even standing a chance you needed some good stuff, and while stuff in the outlands are rather good even quest rewards the 50+ levels before that is not as good, not that it matters much if you have great gear when the attacker almost always was 30+ levels above you.
Heh jasco20...you sound like a kind of person who buys an singleplayer game, cheats to complete it and then toss the game away.
---
Grammar nazi's. This one is for you.
Considering many game companys today seem hell bent on driving the player insane no wonder you enable cheat modes, having to redo the same thing for 20+ times is not even remotely fun, Tomb raider was a good example where you can't even enable cheats without a time trial, that i for one never managed to complete
Whatver happened to just plain honor and playing by the rules?
No buyers = no sellers.
You see Jasco20...
You just don't get it do you?
You try to turn my arguments around one me, but all you do is further incriminate yourself.
You sounds more and more like a lazy gamer who would rather cheat their way to the top then actually play the game.
Yes, I agree with you that the principles of the WoW in-game economy (and actually every in-game economy I have seen in a MMORPG) are way, way off.
In real life, people's greed and ambition are limited by their situation, resources, eductation, etc. In a game, these factors don't matter near as much or not at all, so people become greedy SOBs online because they don't have to answer for their actions in any way, shape or form.
This causes massive economic inflation, and because the resources and money are all virtual, people spend them like it's going out of style...
It's like playing Monopoly with 1 game board but the paper cash from 1,000 game boxes. "Sure I'll buy Park Place for 2.3 million dollars!"
MMO economies, just like real market economies, need some system of control. The MMO system of control is money sinks.. repair costs, travel costs, upkeep, etc. but it's never been enough to offset the supply of in game currency and the greed of the market.
Hence why I said that they need to enforce price caps based off of real value. Real supply and demand. The WoW economy is broken because WE broke it, not Blizzard.
I'll use this example again, how much can you sell stuff to vendors for compared to on the Auction house? Even a somewhat common item, like Large Prismatic Shards sell on the Auction House for like 20-25 gold on my server. The vendor price is barely over 1 gold I think.
Blizzard gave all the items that could be sold real-world values. Then we completely screwed up the economy, and in The Burning Crusade instead of taking the time to fix the economy, they just added to the inflation by increasing quest reward money, loot drops, money drops etc.
We broke it, Blizzard failed to fix it, so we continued to break it.
Buying gold only ADDS to the problem.
You are helping no one but yourself by buying gold, and hurting more then you think.
This debate is as unwinnable as the debates about PvP rule-sets.
I have bought gold. And would do so again. I work 60+ hours a week, have a great social life, and other hobbies besides MMOs (like golf, some of you may want to get outdoors once in a while). The people who are so righteous about the evil gold buyers, and how they are "cheaters" are people who have 20+ hours a week to play these games. And yes I realize this point has been stated ad nauseum as well.
And I agree completely with the above post about RMT servers, they have become so stigmatized they are useless. I will admit however that I left WoW over a year and a half ago and the gold selling spamming was not an issue then. I can imagine it would be infuriating in-game to get those tells.
The bottom line is my money = your free time spent in game. I simply don't have equal free time and you don't have equal money. So I am just leveling the playing field is all. If that ruins the extremely simplistic "economy" in your opinion then so be it. This issue will never, ever go away.
-Flame away.
Old argument and not a good one. Your lack of free time compared to others does not give you the RIGHT to do anything. I have more time to play, ergo I have more crap than you due to my time spent. Does this make me a bad person or someone who does not have equal money? No.
People like you need to learn patience and realize your lack of free time doesn't mean you won't obtain your loots, rep, whatever, it just means it will take you longer in real time. Suck it up.
We all pay to play and follow the same rules. If you do not have the patience to play by the set rules, then find a game where you can achieve more with the time you do have instead of contributing problems to other people.
Basically it boils down to, can you look beyond your own nose?
Old argument and not a good one. Your lack of free time compared to others does not give you the RIGHT to do anything. I have more time to play, ergo I have more crap than you due to my time spent. Does this make me a bad person or someone who does not have equal money? No.
People like you need to learn patience and realize your lack of free time doesn't mean you won't obtain your loots, rep, whatever, it just means it will take you longer in real time. Suck it up.
We all pay to play and follow the same rules. If you do not have the patience to play by the set rules, then find a game where you can achieve more with the time you do have instead of contributing problems to other people.
Basically it boils down to, can you look beyond your own nose?
GREAT POINTS! Man, that is what I have been doing wrong all of these years! If I was just more patient I would get everything I needed. If I was more patient I wouldn't have to grind long hours away (once again that I don't have) to obtain the items I need to even be slightly competitive! I see it now, you are spot on buddy!
And since you summed it up so eloquently, "can I look beyond my own nose?". Um no. I'm not playing a n MMO (which I have been playing since college and UO when I DID have all the free time in the world to play) for some ridiculous sense of "doing the right thing", for that I will give to charity, not play WoW. I am playing because I enjoy it, I enjoy playing with my friends, I enjoy the MMO model, I enjoy PvP, etc, etc, etc.
And ultimately, I never said I had any RIGHT. I said I have done it and will do it again. Based on the time-sink model of all currrent MMO's, this issue will never go away. You are living in a fantasy world if you think so.
I don't need to further incriminate myself... accept... wait a moment! I'm not a criminal!!! I've already regular admitted and supported that by Blizzards definition and yours, I am a "cheater." That is your perspective and Blizzards, I have no argument with it and I readily acknowledge your position. "Cheater" as a label that pertains to WoW has no value to me, so call me a cheater. It matters not.
Again, though, just because it is your definition and Blizzards definition doesn't mean I agree with the principle behind it. To be perfectly clear, I don't. As for "... turning my arguments around on me,..." yes, that is true, and I'm doing quite a good job at it, if I don't say so myself. But only because your arguments have many, many holes in them that allow for said "turning around" thank you very much.
--- blah blah blah blah, did you not read before that I've never had a character in 3 years of playing WOW above level 27? Granted, I may be the exception there as far as gold buying goes. Yet another way in which I do not measure up to the WoW elite. It matters not. I despise grinding, it's a useless time sink... that's the only way to get beyond 30. It's a broken game mechanic. Thankfully, the lower level game is a blast- especially with a lot of extra gold!
Blizzard states their driving goal for their games is something like, "Easy to start, hard to master." They've "cheated" by delivering on that goal only by implementing mind-numbing grinding. There is no skill in grinding. There is no "mastery" involved. Buying gold helps a little bit to alleviate some of the ridiculous tedium in an otherwise mind-boggling and amazing world that I love.
Good... good... I feel your lust for power... let it go, heerobya, embrace it! Now-- now you are getting it my young apprentice. Come to the darkside. Make your journey complete and we will rule all of Azeroth together! Feel the power of limitless gold... feeeeeel it.... yes... yeeeessss....
Did you actually just lump "greed" and "ambition" together? Good grief, I'm glad you don't work for NASA.
Huh? You just said that it is the greedy, lazy and ambitious people like me that cause inflation! But you said earlier that it is the way, way off principles of the WoW in-game economy. Which is it? Just to clear things up here. Fundamental problems with the supply & demand model in WoW are the basis for inflation. Blizzard makes the rules, they program the game. It's not RL. They have complete control over this mechanic. Blizzard is 100% responsible for the mess, not the players. As so many have stated quite clearly, "Blizzard makes the rules." I'm just playing by the rules (the code) they made. It's called leverage.
That's Awsome! I want to play that game!
Again, and to quote you one more time, "... but it's never enough to offset the supply of in game currency and the greed of the market." That means it's broken. Who coded this game? Who wrote the rules of the in-game economy? Who programmed this? It's not RL. It's 100% code. It is changeable by a staff of brilliant programmers behind the game. So, if there is too much supply of in-game currency then that problem rests completely on Blizzard. To be frank, however, 'too much currency' is only a symptom of a broken economic and gameplay model.
Did you really say that? I thought someone else said that... hmmm... well regardless, wrong again!!! WoW is a program. It is broken because the programmers & designers didn't implement said controls. People will go where the programmers let them go. Period. That is a programming problem... and a leverage blessing for me!
Wrong yet one more time. Blizzard PROGRAMMED the ability to allow player-to-player trade, gold for items with no currency cap just like they PROGRAMMED the ability for players to trade items for gold to vendors WITH a currency cap. Blizzard implemented a free market economy without controls. Blizzard implemented the Auction House. Blizzard broke it.
Blizzard broke it with a cherry on top! We took advantage of that brokenness. And they didn't fix it. So we continue to leverage the holes.
Buying gold fixes the problem- for me.
Ok, ok, but it's just pretend hurting. They can eleviate the pretend hurting by buying some pretend gold. If anyone gets so wrapped up in this game that the stress of it carries into RL, that's an entirely different problem altogether- they need RL help or they should leave the game. Real life is worth much much more than stressing out over a game. Really.
But wait a sec before you respond to that.... that's a topic for a new thread, not this one, please.
Silly slask777, ah-shucks, trying to bate me into a flame war. I'm truly flattered.
Old argument and not a good one. Your lack of free time compared to others does not give you the RIGHT to do anything. I have more time to play, ergo I have more crap than you due to my time spent. Does this make me a bad person or someone who does not have equal money? No.
People like you need to learn patience and realize your lack of free time doesn't mean you won't obtain your loots, rep, whatever, it just means it will take you longer in real time. Suck it up.
We all pay to play and follow the same rules. If you do not have the patience to play by the set rules, then find a game where you can achieve more with the time you do have instead of contributing problems to other people.
Basically it boils down to, can you look beyond your own nose?
GREAT POINTS! Man, that is what I have been doing wrong all of these years! If I was just more patient I would get everything I needed. If I was more patient I wouldn't have to grind long hours away (once again that I don't have) to obtain the items I need to even be slightly competitive! I see it now, you are spot on buddy!
And since you summed it up so eloquently, "can I look beyond my own nose?". Um no. I'm not playing a n MMO (which I have been playing since college and UO when I DID have all the free time in the world to play) for some ridiculous sense of "doing the right thing", for that I will give to charity, not play WoW. I am playing because I enjoy it, I enjoy playing with my friends, I enjoy the MMO model, I enjoy PvP, etc, etc, etc.
And ultimately, I never said I had any RIGHT. I said I have done it and will do it again. Based on the time-sink model of all currrent MMO's, this issue will never go away. You are living in a fantasy world if you think so.
Please, cut the sarcasm. It is unwarranted.Yes MMOs are a time sink, but like anything in life, you shouldn't be getting something for nothing and buying gold is just that. You think you have to buy gold to stay competitive. Why should you have the same gear, rep, etc. etc as other people who have put more time in? You shouldn't. That is like saying a new hire at your job should be making the same amount as someone who has been with the company for a few years.
Awards come with time, that is where the dedication and patience comes into play.
Like I said, find a game where you can achieve more with the time you do have to spend gaming instead of adding problems to the game for others just cause you want to play too!!
I feel no compassion, sorry.
Old argument and not a good one. Your lack of free time compared to others does not give you the RIGHT to do anything. I have more time to play, ergo I have more crap than you due to my time spent. Does this make me a bad person or someone who does not have equal money? No.
People like you need to learn patience and realize your lack of free time doesn't mean you won't obtain your loots, rep, whatever, it just means it will take you longer in real time. Suck it up.
We all pay to play and follow the same rules. If you do not have the patience to play by the set rules, then find a game where you can achieve more with the time you do have instead of contributing problems to other people.
Basically it boils down to, can you look beyond your own nose?
GREAT POINTS! Man, that is what I have been doing wrong all of these years! If I was just more patient I would get everything I needed. If I was more patient I wouldn't have to grind long hours away (once again that I don't have) to obtain the items I need to even be slightly competitive! I see it now, you are spot on buddy!
And since you summed it up so eloquently, "can I look beyond my own nose?". Um no. I'm not playing a n MMO (which I have been playing since college and UO when I DID have all the free time in the world to play) for some ridiculous sense of "doing the right thing", for that I will give to charity, not play WoW. I am playing because I enjoy it, I enjoy playing with my friends, I enjoy the MMO model, I enjoy PvP, etc, etc, etc.
And ultimately, I never said I had any RIGHT. I said I have done it and will do it again. Based on the time-sink model of all currrent MMO's, this issue will never go away. You are living in a fantasy world if you think so.
Please, cut the sarcasm. It is unwarranted.Yes MMOs are a time sink, but like anything in life, you shouldn't be getting something for nothing and buying gold is just that. You think you have to buy gold to stay competitive. Why should you have the same gear, rep, etc. etc as other people who have put more time in? You shouldn't. That is like saying a new hire at your job should be making the same amount as someone who has been with the company for a few years.
Awards come with time, that is where the dedication and patience comes into play.
Like I said, find a game where you can achieve more with the time you do have to spend gaming instead of adding problems to the game for others just cause you want to play too!!
I feel no compassion, sorry.
Nah you feel no compassion, that is not saying you can take pride in it. Its simply a fact that you have violated your obligation as expressed in the User Agreement, and you indicated your intention to keep violating it. Its an issue of legal wrong doing, whether you feel compassion or not.While we do not expect legal enforcement as a result of these posting, it does reflect poorly on the integrity of you as a gamer. Blaming all these on the game structure is just a bad excuse. Can you justify killing and robbing banks b/c market capitalism rewards the haves more than the have-nots. No, I do not think so. Games are grind, if you do not want to grind, you can stop playing. But accepting the User Agreement, participate in the game and violating the Agreement? No, that is not a honorable way of gaming.
I wonder if we reference news like this when they move to a business model like SoE's(servers where you can buy gold, levels, gear, etc.), if they'll ban people by the truckload much like they do for anything else they see fit?
Silly slask777, ah-shucks, trying to bate me into a flame war. I'm truly flattered.
hehe, its art...forum art
Anyway, I stand by my opinion. You do indeed sound like a lousy gamer, and I'm glad I wont have to deal with you, and your peers ingame. You are as infuriating as those people that use bots/cheats/godmodes in online fps games. Gamebreakers them too.
---
Grammar nazi's. This one is for you.
When I buy gold... I'm not getting something for nothing. You spend RL time grinding away. I spend RL time + money and game time. I'm paying MORE than you. I spend my own RL time making my $$$, then I spend a few of those dollars to buy gold. But buying gold does not negate the work required to level, it just eases the mind-numbing tedium of useless grinding a little bit. So, I spend RL time making money to buy the gold. You spend RL time grinding for the gold. We're both spending time. Neither one of us is getting something for nothing.
I have no desire, no intention, not even a drop of motivation to stay competitive with anyone in WoW. It's just not what drives me. If you're into cock-strutting, fine, more power to ya- go look really pretty with your uber-gear. You have every right to do so. It's not my gig though. I don't value the uber gear to strut around like the dominant rooster of the pack. I have no interest in keeping up with the joneses in WoW, means nothing to me. I value gear for the stats for the PvE game. I don't give a rats arse what it looks like- it's about the gameplay for me, not comparing my package with yours. I'm well beyond the pre-pubescent pissing matches in life. Who made the rule that WoW is a competitive game? Yeah yeah, blah blah blah--- PvP, but it's voluntary--- it's a feature, not a rule.
Not sure what industry you're working in, but in professional industries, new hires frequently get paid more than longer term employees based on education, talent, experience and skill, OR more frequently, based on who they know in the company. That's why people move companies so frequently today- employees now average less than 3 years spent at any 1 company, because moving companies is the fastest way to growth. Is that cheating? Is it cheating to get hired making more money based on who you know? Of course not, it's called leverage. Buying gold is leverage for me that makes the game more enjoyable for me. Hmmm... something to think about. Life in a free-market economy works that way. It is as it is. Of course, maybe you would prefer a socialist-communist economy, where everyone gets the same loaf of bread no matter what job they do.... except the elite ruling class that is... hmmm....
I like WoW. I pay to play WoW just like you. I also pay extra to play. How is your RL time grinding more valuable than my RL time + RL money? That's just screwy.
Not at all interested in your compassion- means nothing to me.
Can't remember, you still in WoW, slask777? If so, how do you know you don't have to deal with me. I'm very sneaky sneaky, you know. I suppose the blessing for all of you is that I'm a low level gamer in WoW... so, you've never had to deal with me over level 27... no biggy. And you'll never have to deal with me on a raid- I don't raid. Nor in a guild. I despise guilds. Nor in the high-end game- I'm just not interested in wasting my RL time grinding my way there- grinding sux.
hehe, it's art... game art.
So you were one of my victims in CS, eh? Yeah, I was the sneaky camping sniper that pwned ya... Very satisfying indeed.
Well if i take a game like everquest even if you buy platinum there you will never be as good or have the gear the raiders do(people that spend 5-6 days 4+ hours a day online), just for the simple fact it is nodrop, even when i bought some of the best stuff in the bazaar for my shaman and i felt i did a nice upgrade on him i was not even close to the raiders, they where supreme to me in areas like hp/mana/ac they had more then twice of it.
And you can't buy the flags/keys needed to enter said raid zones either, having money makes the low level game a lot more fun, especially in eq where the lowlevels are lonely to say the least, the few lowlevels around are mostly twinks of higher level people and they tend to not need groups of similar level players cause they have a lvl 70 in tow.
As for wow i can see why people buy gold, right now after i restarted i make just enough cash to buy the next set of spells haven't bought anything from AH yet since everything is just to expensive or nothing availible below lvl 10, i do miss my lvl 60 hunter that i deleted in anger, guess you should not do that kind of stuff when angry
Second, buying gold does ruin the economy. To say otherwise shows that either (1) you don't understand or (2) you don't care. Blizzard designs a game that money will enter the economy at a certain rate and people will level within certain parameters. The farmers over camp an area for loots, thus making it harder for me to get said loots as a legitimate player. They will then sell these loots in the AH for inflated prices and since *I* can't get them, I am forced to buy them. This then inflates the prices further. I try not to buy from gold farmers but it's not like you can always tell from a character name, if they are online and level one selling epic items, I don't buy as an example.
Next the "change the password" thing works .... if you have only 1 character on the entire account. So they powerleveled your warlock, but oh lookie they stripped your warrior and shaman of everything first. After all, it's not like YOU are going to report them right?
Buying gold or powerleveling services is a form of cheating. Don't agree with me that's fine, but that little wordy text that you clicked "I Agree" to? It says it's cheating and it says you do it your account goes *poof*. So try to rationalize it all you want Blizzard says don't do it, you agreed not to do it and if you get caught you deserve to have your 70 warlock with 1000 free gold and epic mount get deleted.
Is this one of those "Everybody knows it.." things or do you actually have a link to a page to support your numbers?
-- You're right... Blizzard should definitely fix this poor supply & demand model.
A little help for you here. Ever hear the word "mule?" Many, many, many players roll up a level 1 character they use as a mule for the AH... who receives loot from their other characters and sells it on the AH or stores it.
Again, anyone who provides their account username/password to anyone for any reason is begging for trouble.
I'm not seeing anyone arguing this point... the person you quoted said nothing about cheating. What's this have to do with your position? You are just ranting... which is fine, no offense taken.
Let's cut this down to the basics.
1. Blizzard says buying gold is against their Terms of Service. You break those terms, you risk losing your account.
That's it. Those are the only facts. The rest is opinion.
Does it hurt the in-game economy? Maybe. The economy does a lot to hurt itself.
Does it give an unfair advantage to the gold-buying player? I think you can't argue that the answer to this question is "Yes."
Smartly, most all of the "good" gear and items in WoW are Bind on Pickup. Which means you can't buy them from others, you can only loot them or earn them as PvP rewards, etc.
And Jasco you have never gotten a character past level 27? That is what you said yes?
There is NO point to buying gold at that point. Honestly, if you buy gold at that level it's totally wasted. Nothing that you need at that level is expensive, and I believe you are wasting your real life money buying gold at that level and risking your account security / standing for very little possible gain.
I think Blizzard is now moving towards "reward players" mode before the new expansion. Think about it. Good PvP gear much easier to obtain, more daily quests = easier money and better rewards, more small group and small raid content to get players better gear.
They are trying to "help" people become well geared and make money and finally "achieve" the things they have been trying to achieve for some time. Why? Because they know as well as we do that once the new expansion hits and the level cap is raised to 80, all the stuff and "work" we've done so far doesn't really have meaning, because just like with The Burning Crusade, the new expansion will be a "reset" across the board.
Personally, I like the reset. It sucks having MMO envy. The expansion reset puts us all on even ground again.
That is what I really don't understand about gold buying. I feel it's a sign of impatience. We know in a MMORPG things change often. Why spend real life money on stuff that 6 months or whatever from now will be worth nothing?
Play the game, enjoy it, and don't sweat about the stuff you can't get to / afford right now.
What I don't understand is their methodology. They have a lot of GMs trained to be very nice to players and have a pleasant little conversation with everyone who petitions and actually manages to wait through the hour-plus CS queue. This pollite conversation is often quite pointless and is mainly a chance for the GM to ask you to give good feedback.
If they REALLY cared about gold selling and actual results, it would make a lot more sense to have one GM on each server patrol the major cities and ban the account of every gold spammer. They are bold as daylight, standing in front of every bank, so they would be easy to catch, and it would make a big difference.
But no. They would rather have cheerful conversations with players so they can claim to have good customer service.
Maybe I'm missing it... but after reviewing the thread, I didn't see any posts that dispute the risk involved in breaking the TOS...
I think I can argue this point and I will. Unfair in what respect? The PvE game in WoW is non-competitive EXCEPT by player creation, there is some unspoken 'competition' to get the best gear, look the best, be the most 'l33t.' No where is it a "fact" of gameplay that this comparitive "competition" is requirement of the gameplay. In fact, there is no reward for it other than some feel-good cock-strutting for those who enjoy such things. More power to you by the way, whatever floats your boat.
And even you note here, Heerobya, "most all 'good' gear and items in WoW are Bind on Pickup." So clearly, it is those players who don't buy gold and don't depend on the AH who have the advantage! "Fair," right? So the game is bent, broken toward grinding for gear, or toward PvP for the best gear... that's fine, but that just means I have no unfair advantage at all since I despise grinding for bind on pickup and PvP gear. I will obviously miss out on the most awesome cock-strutting gear out there and by not partaking of that element of gameplay, I leave much more supply to you. So see, I'm actually helping other players by buying gold- I stay out of the market for the best gear! Thank you for making my argument for me. Very nice of you!
There is a "point" and you've missed it entirely, as if you've read nothing I've responded to in this thread. Go back and read again, if you're interested, maybe you can tune-in this time to a different perspective, because I've explained the "point" quite well, if I say so myself. For the sake of saving you the grind of going back through the game, I'll present it hear one more time. See how nice I am, so considerate of others.
Here it is one more time, whether you choose to recognize it or not -- the point-- I despise grinding. Buying gold offsets the mind-numbing tedium of grinding a little bit because it allows me to get into a little better gear, level a little faster, make a little more noticeable progress quicker since I CHOOSE to limit the amount of time I play this amazing game. I'm really just a sheep in wolf's clothing.
Buying the extra supply of gold allows me to buy mats for skilling, take part in the economic game at a fun level, spread around a little wealth in the context of a broken supply & demand model, which is just a lot of fun. Again, I've never had one complaint from someone when I've bought their stack of copper ore for 1g47s. I've never had one complaint from someone who has bought a stack of Elixir of Defense from my alchemist for 29s. Quite the contrary, people love that sort of thing- makes them feel very good. Everyone loves getting deals like that. YOU love getting deals like that! If you don't, well, I can only shrug my shoulders and roll my eyes at that.
Perhaps Blizzard is getting the message. Perhaps they are realizing how incomplete their programming is behind their economic model. Perhaps they are responding in humility, recognizing that it is they themselves who have created the demand for extra gold by implementing a poor supply and demand model. Perhaps, maybe, just maybe, they are taking responsibility and making moves to fix it. It's really simple. It's not easy, but it is simple. If Blizzard fixes their broken economic game mechanics in their otherwise absolutely beautiful, fun and amazing game, then the bottom will fall out of the out-of-game gold market.
Now, there's a topic for another discussion that has been discussed to no end! New expansion negates the hard work put in since the last expansion. I won't go there... I want to, but I won't... holding... myself.... back.... gah!!!
Impatience, yes. Grinding drives me crazy. It is a symptom of poor game design and nothing more than a very uncreative shortcut. (please, please, don't bother firing back with the petty, unintelligent ranting, "If you hate the game so much, just don't play it then!!!" Good grief, that is such a sad, tired song that it puts the other half of country music to shame. )
Grinding is a useless time sink in ANY game, it is an invention of MMO programming and there is no good reason for it. It is only and ever a symptom of lack of creativity in game design. If grinding were such a great feature and selling point, and were such a wonderful thing that so many gamers love, it would be placed prominently on the features list of retail game box! Seriously.
My time is more valuable than grinding. It's so valuable, in fact, that I'm willing to put some extra RL earned dollars toward saving some of it. Please understand, I'm not trying to convert anyone or convince anyone to the darkside if you don't want to go there. Please don't! Becuase, If you do, then gold prices will go up and that would be a bummer for me...
--- I do play the game, I do enjoy it. Because I buy the gold so I don't sweat the stuff I can't get to / afford right now.