I think I can argue this point and I will. Unfair in what respect? The PvE game in WoW is non-competitive EXCEPT by player creation, there is some unspoken 'competition' to get the best gear, look the best, be the most 'l33t.' No where is it a "fact" of gameplay that this comparitive "competition" is requirement of the gameplay. In fact, there is no reward for it other than some feel-good cock-strutting for those who enjoy such things. More power to you by the way, whatever floats your boat.
And even you note here, Heerobya, "most all 'good' gear and items in WoW are Bind on Pickup." So clearly, it is those players who don't buy gold and don't depend on the AH who have the advantage! "Fair," right? So the game is bent, broken toward grinding for gear, or toward PvP for the best gear... that's fine, but that just means I have no unfair advantage at all since I despise grinding for bind on pickup and PvP gear. I will obviously miss out on the most awesome cock-strutting gear out there and by not partaking of that element of gameplay, I leave much more supply to you. So see, I'm actually helping other players by buying gold- I stay out of the market for the best gear! Thank you for making my argument for me. Very nice of you!
When it comes to getting the high-end gear, yes the game is more fair in the way that it rewards players. More effort is required for PVPing or the high-end raiding. However, most anything else in the game can be bought with Gold. Epic Mounts, class spells, crafting mats, pots, etc. can all be bought by anyone who has enough gold. Having the luxury of this gold can make the game much, much easier for players. If this weren't the case, why would anyone buy gold anyway? Thus your statement that you have "no unfair advantage" is very much untrue unless talking specifically about high end stuff. And what you say about "helping other players" is BS. Sure you don't compete for that gear, but with your gold buying you drive up prices for things such as bank slots and epic mounts, very much hurting other players who have a much harder time legitimately getting that money. And I know you'll say the economy in WoW is broken. I'm not here to argue about that. But it is irrevelant. Buying Gold doesn't fix the problem it makes it worse, much, much worse. And the other negative aspect of buying gold is an indirect one. Because of people like you, there continues to be a market for Gold-Sellers. And because this market exists, every player is constantly barraged by Gold Sellers in every major city. And you say that you help other players? Riiiiight...If you really were helping other players, would you have so many people responding to this thread? Think that one through jasco
Impatience, yes. Grinding drives me crazy. It is a symptom of poor game design and nothing more than a very uncreative shortcut. (please, please, don't bother firing back with the petty, unintelligent ranting, "If you hate the game so much, just don't play it then!!!" Good grief, that is such a sad, tired song that it puts the other half of country music to shame. )
Grinding is a useless time sink in ANY game, it is an invention of MMO programming and there is no good reason for it. It is only and ever a symptom of lack of creativity in game design. If grinding were such a great feature and selling point, and were such a wonderful thing that so many gamers love, it would be placed prominently on the features list of retail game box! Seriously.
My time is more valuable than grinding. It's so valuable, in fact, that I'm willing to put some extra RL earned dollars toward saving some of it. Please understand, I'm not trying to convert anyone or convince anyone to the darkside if you don't want to go there. Please don't! Becuase, If you do, then gold prices will go up and that would be a bummer for me...
Oh, wait, grinding is an invention of MMO Programming? Oh wow, that's funny because I could name dozens of games that utilized grinding before any one of us knew what MMO stood for. The whole Final Fantasy Franchise which goes back to 1988 or something like that. Ever played one of those? If you haven't I suggest you do. And I can just imagine the shock on your face when after 10 hours of playing the game you're somewhere around level 10. I'm sorry jasco but grinding was not invented my MMO programming. Chrono Trigger, Breath of Fire, Super Mario RPG, all of those pre-date any MMO, at least as far as I know. And wow, those "poorly designed" games sure have sold a heckuva lot of copies!! I'm too lazy to look up numbers but I'm pretty sure Final Fantasy has to be one of the top 5 highest-selling game frachises of all time. Poorly designed huh? Millions of people disagree with you. And yes, I know not everybody is cut out to play these types of games. If you don't like the game, that's fine. Just don't claim that it's poorly designed.You are a classic case of a hypocrit. "This game sucks. It's broken. What? Am I going to stop playing? Why no!" And I would like to point out that many game boxes actually advertise that it contains 40+ hours of gameplay, etc. aka GRINDING!!! So you're right, many game boxes do actually place grinding prominently on its list of features. Thank you for pointing that out jasco. And, wow if the "If you hate the game so much, just don't play it then!!!" argument is so old, how come you have yet to answer the quesiton? Only impunate those who dare ask it. After all there are thousands of games out there that don't require grinding. It's not like it's play WoW or play nothing. Do you need help? I'd be happy to point out some more appealing games to you if you so desire. One's that aren't so "poorly designed".
When it comes to getting the high-end gear, yes the game is more fair in the way that it rewards players.
Well at least you can see the game is lacking here, nice to hear the admission, jedimario. Perhaps not the best way to engage in a lively debate, conceeding your position so early on, but a nice gesture never the less.
More effort is required for PVPing or the high-end raiding. However, most anything else in the game can be bought with Gold. Epic Mounts, class spells, crafting mats, pots, etc. can all be bought by anyone who has enough gold. Having the luxury of this gold can make the game much, much easier for players. If this weren't the case, why would anyone buy gold anyway? Thus your statement that you have "no unfair advantage" is very much untrue unless talking specifically about high end stuff.
My point exactly, thank you for reaffirming it. You clearly understand some of the logical reasoning behind buying gold. As for the "no unfair advantage" part, I believe the previous post was addressing high-end gameplay loot.
And what you say about "helping other players" is BS. Sure you don't compete for that gear, but with your gold buying you drive up prices for things such as bank slots and epic mounts, very much hurting other players who have a much harder time legitimately getting that money.
See, there you go again, clearly stating the problem. "... who have a much harder time legitimately getting that money." It just shouldn't be so, I tell you! It's not fair! However, there is a legitimate solution for them. They should run some trade mat routes, I am always glad to pay 1g47s for a stack of copper ore, or 1g for a stack of small eggs... or 6 or 7g for a stack of briarthorn. If they are willing to work so hard and grind it out, I am willing to support them with cold hard cash in the AH. One more time... I've never had anyone complain about getting 1g47s for a stack of copper ore and ANYONE can crank up a miner and harvest 20 copper ore post haste if they so choose to spend the time doing so. However, just buying some gold is much more efficient on a time-management scale.
And I know you'll say the economy in WoW is broken. I'm not here to argue about that. But it is irrevelant.
Stating, "But it is irrelevant," right after stating, "...you'll say the economy in WoW is broken." is a cheap shot and greatly diminishes your position in the rest of your post. Stating "But it is irrelevant," without backing up your claim is most definitely arguing the point... just poorly so. Besides, the broken economy is really the core issue of my argument. No fair skirting around that... or firing off a one shot. I would be doing you a great disservice not to call you out on that one.
Buying Gold doesn't fix the problem it makes it worse, much, much worse. And the other negative aspect of buying gold is an indirect one. Because of people like you, there continues to be a market for Gold-Sellers.
Oops, it is actually because of a portion of broken game mechanics linked to a poorly designed and implemented free market economy based on a broken supply and demand model that there continues to be a market for Gold-Sellers. Gold-sellers came first, then gold buyers. Gold sellers came first because there was a substantial demand created by a broken/incomplete/poorly implemented economic model.
And because this market exists, every player is constantly barraged by Gold Sellers in every major city.
It's unfortunate, the whole gold spamming thing, and very irritating. I think Blizzard should definitely do something about that.
And you say that you help other players? Riiiiight...If you really were helping other players, would you have so many people responding to this thread? Think that one through jasco
Just because the majority of people responding to this thread oppose my position doesn't mean there are only just a few who agree with my position. This thread is not a accurate statistical measurement. Just look at how many gold-sellers there are. There is a huge demand. Absolutely HUGE to support all of them. Apparently, I'm doing such a fine job of stating our common position boldly that few of the other gold-buyers cruising this thread feel the need to chime in. Also, as gold buyers, we are notoriously uninterested in what other people think. Quite the neutral chaotic lot, really. I'm an anomoly to be sure.
Furthermore, I take exception to the wonton sarcasm in your statement. I'm the only who is supposed to be wontonly sarcastic here! That is my role. And you are threatening my role. And I don't like it. Not one bit. No sir, not at all.
Really though, I do help other people. But that is sort of irrelevant, isn't it? Just for kicks and giggles and to demonstrate that you are quite incorrect I'll tell the world that just the other evening I helped some poor lowbie sap run from Menethil Harbor, through the Wetlands, Loch Modan & Thelsamar (to get his flightpoint,), through Dun Murough and on up to Ironforge. Took quite a bit of time but it was an enjoyable run... and I gave him 20gold to boot because he was poorly equipped for such hazardous journeys. He was quite pleased and didn't ask where I got the gold. In fact, come to think of it, I've never been asked by anyone where I get the gold I give. Funny that. People are generally very appreciative of my generosity when I do give them gold. They really light up and do all sorts of fun dances for me.
Oh, wait, grinding is an invention of MMO Programming? Oh wow, that's funny because I could name dozens of games that utilized grinding before any one of us knew what MMO stood for. The whole Final Fantasy Franchise which goes back to 1988 or something like that. Ever played one of those? If you haven't I suggest you do. And I can just imagine the shock on your face when after 10 hours of playing the game you're somewhere around level 10.
I'm sorry, Jedimario, apparently I'm lacking in some gaming experience and thus not quite so geekily studly as you. I'm actually pretty ok with that. Admittedly I never have played a Final Fantasy game, though I did watch the movie. (That should set someone off, shouldn't it Ningxi?) Since I can't speak intelligently on that point, I'll let it ride. You win that one. Well done.
I'm sorry jasco but grinding was not invented my MMO programming. Chrono Trigger, Breath of Fire, Super Mario RPG, all of those pre-date any MMO, at least as far as I know. And wow, those "poorly designed" games sure have sold a heckuva lot of copies!!
Based on your information here, it would appear that there is some demand for grinding in "poorly designed" games, if grinding is indeed part of these games. I really don't get that. To each his own then. I'm cool with anyone and everyone who just loves to grind away. Don't let me stop any of you!
I'm too lazy to look up numbers but I'm pretty sure Final Fantasy has to be one of the top 5 highest-selling game frachises of all time. Poorly designed huh? Millions of people disagree with you.
I'll pass on your blatant baiting to take on the whole "lazy" thing. But as I mentioned before, I didn't play Final Fantasy. I am, however, keenly interested to know how on earth you knew I thought it was a poorly designed game? That's simply amazing!!! See, this is where you just start ranting. Quite entertaining really. Again, thank you, jedimario. Very charming of you.
And yes, I know not everybody is cut out to play these types of games. If you don't like the game, that's fine. Just don't claim that it's poorly designed.You are a classic case of a hypocrit. "This game sucks. It's broken. What? Am I going to stop playing? Why no!"
That's funny. I'm actually laughing right now! I mentioned right in my post, even begged someone not to play that sad old song... but you did! You jumped right in. Stellar performance! . Kudos for jedimario! You rock, man!
And I would like to point out that many game boxes actually advertise that it contains 40+ hours of gameplay, etc. aka GRINDING!!! So you're right, many game boxes do actually place grinding prominently on its list of features. Thank you for pointing that out jasco.
Ummm.... did you really just equate "gameplay" with "grinding?" You keep using that word... I do not think it means what you think it means.
And, wow if the "If you hate the game so much, just don't play it then!!!" argument is so old, how come you have yet to answer the quesiton?
I've answered that question SO many times and SO many other people have answered that question SO many times that it is now common knowledge. If you don't know the answer by now, you either haven't been listening to the gaming community at large or have chosen to selectively block out the answer. Thus... the reference to a sad, tired old song. It just keeps playing... and playing... and playing... like Phil Collins on the radio in '89-'90. I can still hear him, "Oh, think twice, it's another day for you and me in paradise." I'm still sick of that song... even though the message was quite wonderful. It was just way overplayed.
But for you, my young apprentice, I will respond yet one more time and this time use WoW as my example. For the record yet one more time and as I have confessed many times in this thread with great enthusiasm, I thoroughly enjoy WoW. It is an amazing, beautiful and wonderful game and I love playing it. I love playing it all the more because I buy gold that slightly eases the tedium of useless, mind-numbing grinding that is a symptom of a broken supply and demand model/system and some less than stellar gameplay mechanics.
As is the case in real life, it is quite possible and quite frequent that a person may wholly love an entity but be driven to abject frustration by a certain aspect of said entity. Thus, that sad song, "All or Nothing. If you hate it so much don't play it" is quite ludicrous when supplied in this context. "All or Nothing" is also typically unacceptable in an intelligent debate; humanity just really isn't all that black and white. (I really didn't want to go there, friend, but you were asking me to, so now I have and I feel no better for it even though it was for your sake.)
Herein lies the crux of the response; while I and many other fans of World of Warcraft love the game, we dissent on some points of the gameplay. For us, these points are not significant enough to yield an entirely negative verdict such that we no longer wish to play the game ('hate it' as you say,) particularly when there is a viable workaround that is readily available. Buying gold sooths the minor dissent and makes the game that much more enjoyable for me and many, many others.
Only impunate those who dare ask it.
Now, is that your rule? I'll note it for future reference. No doubt I wish to play by your rules.
After all there are thousands of games out there that don't require grinding. It's not like it's play WoW or play nothing. Do you need help? I'd be happy to point out some more appealing games to you if you so desire. One's that aren't so "poorly designed".
As I mentioned before, I am quite happy playing WoW- it is quite an appealing game overall and very well designed with the exception of a few gameplay mechanics. But those are easily overcome.
Stating, "But it is irrelevant," right after stating, "...you'll say the economy in WoW is broken." is a cheap shot and greatly diminishes your position in the rest of your post. Stating "But it is irrelevant," without backing up your claim is most definitely arguing the point... just poorly so. Besides, the broken economy is really the core issue of my argument. No fair skirting around that... or firing off a one shot. I would be doing you a great disservice not to call you out on that one.
Well, if it is the core issue of your argument, then your argument is poorly based. I didn't state why it is irrevelant simply because in my perusal of these forums I have seen the exact point made before. The game was made by Blizzard and Blizzard makes the rules for it. Blizzard doesn't have to let any of us play, but they do anyway. Regardless about what you feel is a broken mechanic, that doesn't make it ok to buy gold. It's irrelevant. The only thing that matters are the rules Blizzard sets down. If you think the economy sucks, then complain to Blizzard about it. Maybe even suggest an answer if you have one. If you already have done so then I applaud you for it. But a broken mechanic doesn't make it ok to break the rules.
Just because the majority of people responding to this thread oppose my position doesn't mean there are only just a few who agree with my position.
True. And just because other people agree with you doesn't mean you're right either.
This thread is not a accurate statistical measurement.
Never said it was. Just said that there are some people out there not very happy about it.
Also, as gold buyers, we are notoriously uninterested in what other people think.
I'd say that's pretty clear.
Furthermore, I take exception to the wonton sarcasm in your statement. I'm the only who is supposed to be wontonly sarcastic here! That is my role. And you are threatening my role. And I don't like it. Not one bit. No sir, not at all.
Ha! Now that made me laugh. I am not threatening my role. Although I am flattered that you think so.
I've answered that question SO many times and SO many other people have answered that question SO many times that it is now common knowledge. If you don't know the answer by now, you either haven't been listening to the gaming community at large or have chosen to selectively block out the answer.
Yeah I guess I wasn't listening...so sue me
But for you, my young apprentice, I will respond yet one more time and this time use WoW as my example. For the record yet one more time and as I have confessed many times in this thread with great enthusiasm, I thoroughly enjoy WoW. It is an amazing, beautiful and wonderful game and I love playing it. I love playing it all the more because I buy gold that slightly eases the tedium of useless, mind-numbing grinding that is a symptom of a broken supply and demand model/system and some less than stellar gameplay mechanics.
As is the case in real life, it is quite possible and quite frequent that a person may wholly love an entity but be driven to abject frustration by a certain aspect of said entity. Thus, that sad song, "All or Nothing. If you hate it so much don't play it" is quite ludicrous when supplied in this context. "All or Nothing" is also typically unacceptable in an intelligent debate; humanity just really isn't all that black and white. (I really didn't want to go there, friend, but you were asking me to, so now I have and I feel no better for it even though it was for your sake.)
Herein lies the crux of the response; while I and many other fans of World of Warcraft love the game, we dissent on some points of the gameplay. For us, these points are not significant enough to yield an entirely negative verdict such that we no longer wish to play the game ('hate it' as you say,) particularly when there is a viable workaround that is readily available. Buying gold sooths the minor dissent and makes the game that much more enjoyable for me and many, many others.
I have to admit. I don't get it. Grinding is such a huge part of WoW. You hate grinding, which I can understand. I get tired of myself at times. I guess I can't see how you would love to play WoW when grinding is the main thrust of the game, at least until you hit 70, and even then it's still grinding, just in a different way. I would understand if there were smaller issues with the game that irritated you, yet you still loved it. After all, every game has at least a few small issues. But WoW is grinding. And I guess I partially misunderstood you as well. It seems to me that a very, very, large portion of what you are righing on this thread was very negative about WoW. I guess that was just because of the particular discussion at hand. I don't understand it. But you understand one of my biggest peeves is people who all they do is complain about WoW, and yet they still play it. It seemed like you were one of those guys but at least you said some good things about the game.
Well, if it is the core issue of your argument, then your argument is poorly based. I didn't state why it is irrevelant simply because in my perusal of these forums I have seen the exact point made before. The game was made by Blizzard and Blizzard makes the rules for it. Blizzard doesn't have to let any of us play, but they do anyway.
Blizzard is not nearly so high-minded, really. They would not have made the game except to make money... and they do so only by people playing. There is no "don't have to let us play." If Blizzard held such a position, there would be no WoW. WoW has no other purpose than for people to pay to play.
Regardless about what you feel is a broken mechanic, that doesn't make it ok to buy gold. It's irrelevant. The only thing that matters are the rules Blizzard sets down. If you think the economy sucks, then complain to Blizzard about it. Maybe even suggest an answer if you have one. If you already have done so then I applaud you for it. But a broken mechanic doesn't make it ok to break the rules.
It is quite relevant. It is the entire point, actually. The only thing that matters is that I enjoy the game- that's the point of games! I have submitted my opinions to Blizzard regarding the condition of their economy and my input was met with an underwhelming pre-generated response and most impersonal response.
A broken mechanic is all the reason I need to break the rules in a virtual world. In RL, this happens all the time and to quite good effect many times. It's amazing how many systems get fixed when people break the rules underlying a broken system. But I am not so high-minded here. I think it would be wonderful if Blizzard would fix the root problem someday. Until then, I'm content with the workaround. And I'm certainly not so high-minded as to suggest here that the sole purpose I'm buying gold is for the sake of the rest of the WoW community; a protest of sorts. That's just silly and I won't go there.
Just because the majority of people responding to this thread oppose my position doesn't mean there are only just a few who agree with my position.
True. And just because other people agree with you doesn't mean you're right either.
Right, wrong, indifferent... blah, blah, blah. Virtual morality in a virtual world. Funny that. I just think it's so interesting how people feel so much more free to buck the system in virtuality- the anonymity reigns. And then how others respond with great self-righteousness, even piety- very much "holier than thou." Paladins and Rogues all! No middle ground. For instance, I am much more bold here in virtuality, and even crass and semi-chaotic. Very rogue-ish of me, isn't it? I come off with a self-centered air that creates a certain elevated level of loathing in others toward me (even though they are just as self-centered... they just don't wear it on their sleeves, as I have here.)
But, in RL, I would never go where I've gone in this thread. (that's going to tweak some people who really feel that virtuality is but an extension of reality... even though we're playing with dwarves, elves, swords, dragons and spells. We defy mortality in virtuality but somehow increase our own morality. Weird.) In reality I'm a soft-spoken, very kind, service oriented teddy-bear type. I love playing in the sandbox of a virtual world, even in virtual forums. It's fun role-playing, isn't it? But see, now I've gone and done it... burst the bubble. I'm no longer much of a target of loathing in the community cuz I've let the cat out of the bag. It's not a problem, this thread has really seen more than it's share of time in this forum and is quickly going the way of an old, aging MMO (and rightly so.) It's all Role-playing. In fact, now you're not so sure I buy gold at all, are you? You would never know it by meeting me in the game...
This thread is not a accurate statistical measurement.
Never said it was. Just said that there are some people out there not very happy about it.
Your argument was based on the number of people responding to the thread. That is using a statistical measurement to support your argument whether you said it was or not...
I have to admit. I don't get it. Grinding is such a huge part of WoW. You hate grinding, which I can understand. I get tired of myself at times. I guess I can't see how you would love to play WoW when grinding is the main thrust of the game, at least until you hit 70, and even then it's still grinding, just in a different way. I would understand if there were smaller issues with the game that irritated you, yet you still loved it. After all, every game has at least a few small issues. But WoW is grinding.
Yes, there is plenty of grinding in WoW, but buying gold really goes quite a long ways to relieve the frustration of grinding and a broken economic model. It speeds things up substantially and I am then able to get on with the greater joy of really immersing myself in the rest of the wonderful World of Warcraft. Really though, there are many many dynamics in WoW besides grinding that make it such a lovable game.
There are a few abberations in the player community who really do love grinding. I know one of them and he is otherwise a relatively normal fellow. For the most part, grinding is universally distained but quietly tolerated because few are willing to protest substantially enough about it for developers to get creative and put systems in place that alleviate the problem. Some even embrace the tedium of grinding, do their best to find the positives in it, and they'll defend the broken mechanic to the death. Very strange. But we do that sort of thing in RL too. May of us go to great lengths to justify a meager and unprovocative, menial existence in our Dilbert Cubes. After all, it is much easier on the heart just to play the game and tolerate the broken parts than it is to actually do something about it. After all, it is just life and hardly worth the effort of a substantial protest. For many of us who hold a harder line on the virtuality of games, it is easy to depart from the norm (what exactly is the 'norm' in a virtual world, anyway?) and we find ways to compensate for poor development in one area or another, even if and sometimes especially if said departure is against the rules in a virtual world.
That is an old press release, just before BC came out. It does list in the breakdown that majority of subs are in China alone. Coincidence that most farmers come from that same country? Don't think so. I've seen prime time newscasts that did subjects on the gold farming business, they were all based in China.
That link has a lot of charts showing various info, one of which shows that overwhelmingly ingame advertising is NOT approved of.
Now we know there has to be a lot of farmers out there. Just check the web and you'll see numerous sites for buying gold, SOMEONE has to be farming all this gold. Since many adverstise they have "over 2 million gold in stock", and there are more than one site that says this, that is a LOT of players. So my estimate of 10% was conservative. There are about 250 servers, so do the math. A mere 10 people per server cannot amass 2 million gold. Would take hundreds per server to stockpile that much gold. Remember there is a cap for gold, 214k I think it was listed but I can't find that link.
So Blizzard does not need to fix the supply & demand model. It was originally designed with people playing the game as intended, without a secondary market. Add this secondary market and it adds an element out of Blizzard's control that affects the ingame economy. This isn't unique to WoW, Sony had problems with this with both EQ1 and EQ2. They did cave in a bit and made an exchange server, which they got a lot of negative press about.
Yes I have heard of mules, I have a bankbot myself. However, typically if a level one is selling an epic, makes ya wonder why not selling on their main? Usually people think (1) ninja looter or (2) gold farmer. Exceptions are made if the level one is guilded with a well known guild. Example if there is a guild called "WoW Knights" you may have a level one named wowknightbot guilded with WoW Knights.
In order to have powerleveling services you HAVE to give an account and password, how else do you think you get your 70 epic warlock you paid for? They don't character transfer it to your account and they sure as heck aren't going to give you THEIR account info are they? Rarely do people have an empty account, though I'm sure that's possible.
Finally I am not ranting I posted my opinion and then listed the fact that it is a form of cheating because the TOS and EULA you agreed to say so. That is not a rant, it's a fact. You clicked "I Agree" and buy gold you violated the agreement, short way to say it is "cheating". Don't believe me read the agreement next time they patch instead of just clicking "I Agree" without knowing what you are agreeing to.
That is an old press release, just before BC came out. It does list in the breakdown that majority of subs are in China alone. Coincidence that most farmers come from that same country? Don't think so. I've seen prime time newscasts that did subjects on the gold farming business, they were all based in China.
That link has a lot of charts showing various info, one of which shows that overwhelmingly ingame advertising is NOT approved of.
Now we know there has to be a lot of farmers out there. Just check the web and you'll see numerous sites for buying gold, SOMEONE has to be farming all this gold. Since many adverstise they have "over 2 million gold in stock", and there are more than one site that says this, that is a LOT of players.
Don't believe everything that is advertised. They "say" they have 2 million gold in stock in a show of oneupsmanship to their competitors. As a seasoned gold buyer, I can assure you that few if any gold sellers have 2 million gold in stock. I've hardly come across a single gold seller that has more than a 1,000 gold available at any given time on any given server... and even that is rare. Most of the time, they have to go out and harvest the gold and it takes days for delivery... even for a tiny 500 gold.
So my estimate of 10% was conservative. There are about 250 servers, so do the math. A mere 10 people per server cannot amass 2 million gold. Would take hundreds per server to stockpile that much gold. Remember there is a cap for gold, 214k I think it was listed but I can't find that link.
Yeah, I'm sure there are probably quite a few gold farmers on each server. But your estimate of 10% has no basis in statisictical fact, it is nothing more than an unsubstantiated guestimate that cannot be substantiated by any means available to us. It's a very competitive market to be sure. Your numbers don't work, but I agree with you none the less, there are very many gold farmers out there.
So Blizzard does not need to fix the supply & demand model. It was originally designed with people playing the game as intended, without a secondary market.
That is true as well. Blizzard does not need to fix the supply & demand model. In fact, the 3rd part gold business is booming because they haven't felt the need to fix it. However, if Blizzard wants to drop the bottom out of the 3rd party gold market they really do need to fix the supply & demand model. All their banning and threatening to ban and pleading and begging is clearly not working. Bottom line? The supply & demand model is clearly not well thought out, at least not for a wonderful free market economy like WoW has. Also, original designs that are broken get fixed all the time, and thank goodness they do! I feel much safer flying on jets today because poor designs are improved upon and fixed. Whew!
Add this secondary market and it adds an element out of Blizzard's control that affects the ingame economy.
Blizzard programmed the game. It's well within their control to determine what affects and what doesn't affect the ingame economy. Nothing outside the game affects inside the game without Blizzard opening the door for it to happen, intentional or not. That is the hard fact of computer programming. Nothing happens in virtuality that is not the responsibility of the human engineers doing the work in reality. That is also why software companies patch vulnerabilities in their software- because they understand that it is their responsibility to do so. Blizzard is not exempt.
However, for some reason that escapes me, they have chosen not to fix this vulnerability. Either the problem is working in their favor and the messages and bannings and pleadings and beggings are presented only to placate the angry masses or the fix is so complex that the return on the investment to fix it is not substantial enough to warrant the fix. That's my best shot at trying to figure out why they haven't fixed this problem already. Anyone else have any idea why they haven't fixed it?
This isn't unique to WoW, Sony had problems with this with both EQ1 and EQ2. They did cave in a bit and made an exchange server, which they got a lot of negative press about.
Yeah, isn't that crazy? It would appear to be a plague and blight on the MMO industry as a whole. I completely agree, these broken economies... ugh. I wish they would fix them all.
Yes I have heard of mules, I have a bankbot myself. However, typically if a level one is selling an epic, makes ya wonder why not selling on their main? Usually people think (1) ninja looter or (2) gold farmer.
I've never thought "Ninja Looter or gold farmer" when I've seen that... and I've spent dozens and dozens of hours playing the AH game with Auctioneer. Do you have some inside statistical means of finding out what people "usually" think? If you do, you should definitely get a patent attorney on that one... you are soon to be very much in-demand and wealthy to boot if you play it right.
Exceptions are made if the level one is guilded with a well known guild. Example if there is a guild called "WoW Knights" you may have a level one named wowknightbot guilded with WoW Knights.
In order to have powerleveling services you HAVE to give an account and password, how else do you think you get your 70 epic warlock you paid for? They don't character transfer it to your account and they sure as heck aren't going to give you THEIR account info are they? Rarely do people have an empty account, though I'm sure that's possible.
Giving anyone an account username and password is just begging for big trouble. I personally strongly discourage the practice- it is very dangerous and could get said account stripped and even banned by Blizzard. Ouch!
Finally I am not ranting I posted my opinion and then listed the fact that it is a form of cheating because the TOS and EULA you agreed to say so. That is not a rant, it's a fact. You clicked "I Agree" and buy gold you violated the agreement, short way to say it is "cheating". Don't believe me read the agreement next time they patch instead of just clicking "I Agree" without knowing what you are agreeing to.
Actually, yeah, toward the end of your earlier post it was a little rantish. C'mon now!. Just keepin' it real!
This will be my last rebuttal to jasco20 as he seems to either be not understanding what I am saying or just refusing to listen. So here goes...
As a seasoned gold buyer, as you called yourself, you can't seriously believe that the sellers do not have a large stock of gold. If you "just" bought 500g, do you honestly think you are the only one? Even if there are only a dozen or so people per server buying gold, "tiny" amounts like 500g would add up quickly and if they can't keep up with the demand they go out of business. So fine, maybe they don't have 2 million gold. They surely have vastly more than 500g stockpiled, so a conservative estimate would be what only tens of thousands? That is still an awful lot of gold and takes a lot of farming to amass that much.
My numbers don't work because it is hard to get exact numbers. Until the farmer gets caught he's a subscriber like everyone else. I said 10% of Asian markets because that was a relativelly low percentage, but still yielding a lot of total farmers. At around 250 servers, you know they have to have multiple people per server collecting gold or high-value items.
You cannot compare and abstract economic model to a functional aircraft. Did you know you have a better chance of surviving a crash in a WWI bi-plane than in a modern jet? Anways, back on this topic. Blizzard made a game and intended items and gold to enter the economy at a certain rate, the secondary market is drastically altering this. An example is there were lanterns that used to drop off venture company goblins in STV that sold for about 1g each. They intended them to be an uncommon drop for players to make some xtra cash if they got lucky and got one. The farmers camped the goblins to the point Blizzard was forced to change the items to gray quality and only valued a few silver. Now I've been penalized for something the secondary market did.
The supply & demand model, is basically the gear-based system that many MMO's use. Even in games that don't use it, such as City of Heroes, the farmers are still dabbling in trying to make a buck. In CoH however, if I find an influence spammer (that games currency) I can actually ignore his account so doesn't matter if he deletes the level one and makes another I will be globally ignoring all characters from that account. If blizzard could impliment something like that would greatly cut down on their advertising ability. Sure, they could start a new account but that costs money to buy a new copy of the game and expansion.
Unfortunately you cannot compare actions of the secondary market to a bug in a program. A bug is something in their code that they find and fix. The secondary market is not a bug in their code, it is a behaviour of a 3rd party. They have patched the code trying to discourage and inconvenience them, but they can only do so much. One problem is as I said before, til they are caught they are a subscriber like everyone else. The second is the buyer needs to suffer the same penalty, meaning you buy the gold YOU get banned.
My comment on the ninja looter does not require a snarky remark. It is how it has been since the farmers and ninja's started doing it. If you see an unguilded level one selling an epic item they are (1) a ninja looter or (2) a farmer. That is why many people who use a character slot as their mule, do not give him gibberish names and tag him with the guild they are in. So the players can see where the item came from such as "Knightsofwowmule" would be from the guild Knights of WoW. As for the statistical evidence of what people think you can loot at the link I had before showing the chart of vastly disapproving of ingame ads and blizzard's actions of adding Report Spam to mail and chat windows. The 1 hour delay for money was also done as a way to discourage them and the players didn't seem to mind.... much.
So you're a gold buyer, there is nothing more I can say. You will ignore or twist what I say to rationalize what you do. You will blame me, my stats, blizzard or anyone else to make you feel "in the right". You are violating the TOS that you agreed to, whether blizzard can or can't fix it is irrelevant, you agreed to abide by certain rules and you knowingly, willingly broke those rules.
Say what you will to this I am no longer watching this thread. Good day.
Originally posted by DrowNoble In CoH however, if I find an influence spammer (that games currency) I can actually ignore his account so doesn't matter if he deletes the level one and makes another I will be globally ignoring all characters from that account. If blizzard could impliment something like that would greatly cut down on their advertising ability. Sure, they could start a new account but that costs money to buy a new copy of the game and expansion.
I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately, this is just another in a long list of things Blizzard could be doing, but for whatever reason chooses not to.
This will be my last rebuttal to jasco20 as he seems to either be not understanding what I am saying or just refusing to listen. So here goes...
Boy, I just can't pass this one up, there are so many erroneous "rebuttals" in your rebuttal, drownoble, well, I just gotta... Regardless, I have to admit that I am enjoying some level of satisfaction that you are giving up. Well done.
To get started, drownoble, understanding and agreeing are two different things. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I don't understand you. And just because you leave gaping holes in your arguments and I respond, doesn't mean I am refusing to listen either. I understand your position and what you are saying quite well. You are a very clear communicator. It is just that your position is weak and I can't help but take advantage of that.
As a seasoned gold buyer, as you called yourself, you can't seriously believe that the sellers do not have a large stock of gold. If you "just" bought 500g, do you honestly think you are the only one? Even if there are only a dozen or so people per server buying gold, "tiny" amounts like 500g would add up quickly and if they can't keep up with the demand they go out of business. So fine, maybe they don't have 2 million gold. They surely have vastly more than 500g stockpiled, so a conservative estimate would be what only tens of thousands? That is still an awful lot of gold and takes a lot of farming to amass that much.
Since I have to wait 3-5 days or more to receive an order of 500 gold while they are out harvesting it, that would be a pretty good indicator that they do not have said gold in stock. Kind of like when I go to store and have to take a raincheck... generally means the store is out of stock. I do not serioiusly believe a store would hold out on selling me an item right then when I am providing the cash to buy it. So, I can indeed seriously believe that the sellers do not have a large stock of gold. The information you present has no basis in fact or experience while the information I present comes from first hand experience; in fact, many first hand experiences with many gold sellers.
My numbers don't work because it is hard to get exact numbers. Until the farmer gets caught he's a subscriber like everyone else. I said 10% of Asian markets because that was a relativelly low percentage, but still yielding a lot of total farmers. At around 250 servers, you know they have to have multiple people per server collecting gold or high-value items.
-- 10% is a baseless guess, then.
You cannot compare and abstract economic model to a functional aircraft.
I most certainly can and I did. It was an illustrative comparison designed to yield a more thorough understanding of the issue, not a attribute comparison, you should know the difference in a debate such as this. Apples and oranges have quite different attributes. However, for someone who has never seen an apple, I can use the example of an orange to help the person understand that an apple is roundish.
Did you know you have a better chance of surviving a crash in a WWI bi-plane than in a modern jet? Anways, back on this topic. Blizzard made a game and intended items and gold to enter the economy at a certain rate, the secondary market is drastically altering this.
You nailed it! They "intended" items an gold to enter the economy at a certain rate. You know what they say about intentions, right? There has to be something significantly more than intentions when programming a game. Yes, if Blizzard had learned from the many MMO's that went before it, they would have realized that secondary market is a problem. If only they had observed and implemented a fully functioning and balanced supply and demand model along with intelligent and provacative gameplay (in place of grinding,) then we wouldn't be struggling with a secondary market at all. There would be no demand for it.
An example is there were lanterns that used to drop off venture company goblins in STV that sold for about 1g each. They intended them to be an uncommon drop for players to make some xtra cash if they got lucky and got one. The farmers camped the goblins to the point Blizzard was forced to change the items to gray quality and only valued a few silver. Now I've been penalized for something the secondary market did.
The supply & demand model, is basically the gear-based system that many MMO's use.
Not completely accurate! WoW's supply & demand model goes far beyond gear. But unless you've used a tool like Auctioneer accompanied by some good tracking spreadsheets to play the economy in the AH, you probably would not see the complexity of the free market economy at work. The entire economy is based on a broken supply & demand model.
For nearly 3 months I ran a futures trading business in WoW. A lot of players made a lot of gold from my efforts and I made a lot of gold from them as well. I set up syndicated investments and provided statistical data that demonstrated the market fluctuations were predictable. I harvested data from a number of large guild sites; when they were planning high-end raids that would yield a lot of gear that would end up on the AH. Thus I was able to fairly accurately predict the disenchanting bidding wars that always followed. I set up a 3-tier mutual fund trading in enchanting materials that performed quite well until a large guild grabbed hold of what I was doing and flooded the market with mats, then it became too volatile and I pulled out- no longer worth the effort. I realized I just wanted to go play the PvE game and the economic game was simply far too consuming and time intensive. It's much simpler just to buy some gold. Now, if Blizzard would just fix the supply & demand model, the economy could really take off.
Even in games that don't use it, such as City of Heroes, the farmers are still dabbling in trying to make a buck. In CoH however, if I find an influence spammer (that games currency) I can actually ignore his account so doesn't matter if he deletes the level one and makes another I will be globally ignoring all characters from that account. If blizzard could impliment something like that would greatly cut down on their advertising ability. Sure, they could start a new account but that costs money to buy a new copy of the game and expansion.
I'm with you, I do wish Blizzard would implement an Ignore Account feature.
Unfortunately you cannot compare actions of the secondary market to a bug in a program. A bug is something in their code that they find and fix.
Who said anything about a bug? Bugs are not the only problems with software, drownoble. The problem with the Supply & Demand model is certainly not a bug. It is programming that works for what it does, but it is simply broken in the sense that the balance of supply & demand is way off and not in congruity with the gameplay mechanics required to harvest the supply.
The secondary market is not a bug in their code, it is a behaviour of a 3rd party.
True that it is not a bug. As I have been saying all along, the secondary market is nothing more than a symptom of a broken supply & demand model; a model which is an incomplete economic system where the holes allow the light to shine brightly on the problem. Enough so, so that enterprising individuals can clearly see the demand problem. Coupled with the gameplay mechanics that exist that allow them to provide the much-in-demand supply that the game does not- and they are having a hay day.
They have patched the code trying to discourage and inconvenience them, but they can only do so much. One problem is as I said before, til they are caught they are a subscriber like everyone else. The second is the buyer needs to suffer the same penalty, meaning you buy the gold YOU get banned.
You say, "They can only do so much." That would be implying a lack of creativity and intelligence in the programming staff at Blizzard when it is quite clear by looking at the many other systems in WoW that the programming staff are very creative and very intelligent! You should be nicer to them, they are working their collective butts off for us!
My comment on the ninja looter does not require a snarky remark.
Got me there, no snarky remark required... however, I was feeling quite snarky at the moment. Forgive me.
It is how it has been since the farmers and ninja's started doing it. If you see an unguilded level one selling an epic item they are (1) a ninja looter or (2) a farmer. That is why many people who use a character slot as their mule, do not give him gibberish names and tag him with the guild they are in. So the players can see where the item came from such as "Knightsofwowmule" would be from the guild Knights of WoW.
As for the statistical evidence of what people think you can look at the link I had before showing the chart of vastly disapproving of ingame ads and blizzard's actions of adding Report Spam to mail and chat windows. The 1 hour delay for money was also done as a way to discourage them and the players didn't seem to mind.... much.
Funny thing about statistics, they only apply as a specific metric of the system being analyzed. So to imply that you could know what other people think about a level 1 character trading an epic based on statists that measure approval rating regarding advertising is nothing short of ludicrous.
So you're a gold buyer, there is nothing more I can say. You will ignore or twist what I say to rationalize what you do.
I haven't rationalized anything. I have no need to rationalize any of my actions. The primary focus of this thread and particularly my exchange with you was a debate centered on Blizzards responsibility to fix the economic and gameplay mechanics problem. It was about whether or not the problem was blizzards and my attempt to present evidence that it is, in fact, Blizzards doing and they are responsible to fix it! I've not spent one word defending or rationalizing my actions.
You will blame me, my stats, blizzard or anyone else to make you feel "in the right".
No, I won't. I take responsibility for my actions. We all have reasons for doing what we do. I have my reasons for doing what I do and I've stated them quite clearly much earlier in this post, but I take responsibility for my actions. If my account gets banned, I take responsibility for that- it is not blizzards fault since I am clearly breaking the rules of their TOS.
However, WoW is a game; it is virtuality. Who says "right" and "wrong" from reality need apply? I think I've addressed the "virtual morality" issue as well. It would appear it is you who is not listening or understanding. I'm not feeling "in the wrong" even though I am clearly breaking the TOS, so there is no drive for me to do anything to feel "in the right." You are assuming that I am as apt as you to carry over reality morality into a virtual game.
You are violating the TOS that you agreed to, whether blizzard can or can't fix it is irrelevant, you agreed to abide by certain rules and you knowingly, willingly broke those rules.
Absolutely, I did. But what does that have to do with our conversation about the economic model? You have lost focus again, drownoble and have polluted a perfectly good debate with irrelevant points- very poor form, I must say.
But for the sake of debate, what's wrong with breaking Blizzards rules? They are rules that apply to a virtual world (making them virtual rules, btw) made up of virtual dwarves, elves, mages etc fighting virtual golems, dragons, giant spiders etc and using virtual gear bought with virtual gold or virtually earned in virtual time. It all borders on virtual lunacy!
Say what you will to this I am no longer watching this thread. Good day.
Glad you finally caved and conceeded, drownoble. I am weary of trying to keep you on task...
Comments
When it comes to getting the high-end gear, yes the game is more fair in the way that it rewards players. More effort is required for PVPing or the high-end raiding. However, most anything else in the game can be bought with Gold. Epic Mounts, class spells, crafting mats, pots, etc. can all be bought by anyone who has enough gold. Having the luxury of this gold can make the game much, much easier for players. If this weren't the case, why would anyone buy gold anyway? Thus your statement that you have "no unfair advantage" is very much untrue unless talking specifically about high end stuff. And what you say about "helping other players" is BS. Sure you don't compete for that gear, but with your gold buying you drive up prices for things such as bank slots and epic mounts, very much hurting other players who have a much harder time legitimately getting that money. And I know you'll say the economy in WoW is broken. I'm not here to argue about that. But it is irrevelant. Buying Gold doesn't fix the problem it makes it worse, much, much worse. And the other negative aspect of buying gold is an indirect one. Because of people like you, there continues to be a market for Gold-Sellers. And because this market exists, every player is constantly barraged by Gold Sellers in every major city. And you say that you help other players? Riiiiight...If you really were helping other players, would you have so many people responding to this thread? Think that one through jasco
Oh, wait, grinding is an invention of MMO Programming? Oh wow, that's funny because I could name dozens of games that utilized grinding before any one of us knew what MMO stood for. The whole Final Fantasy Franchise which goes back to 1988 or something like that. Ever played one of those? If you haven't I suggest you do. And I can just imagine the shock on your face when after 10 hours of playing the game you're somewhere around level 10. I'm sorry jasco but grinding was not invented my MMO programming. Chrono Trigger, Breath of Fire, Super Mario RPG, all of those pre-date any MMO, at least as far as I know. And wow, those "poorly designed" games sure have sold a heckuva lot of copies!! I'm too lazy to look up numbers but I'm pretty sure Final Fantasy has to be one of the top 5 highest-selling game frachises of all time. Poorly designed huh? Millions of people disagree with you. And yes, I know not everybody is cut out to play these types of games. If you don't like the game, that's fine. Just don't claim that it's poorly designed.You are a classic case of a hypocrit. "This game sucks. It's broken. What? Am I going to stop playing? Why no!" And I would like to point out that many game boxes actually advertise that it contains 40+ hours of gameplay, etc. aka GRINDING!!! So you're right, many game boxes do actually place grinding prominently on its list of features. Thank you for pointing that out jasco. And, wow if the "If you hate the game so much, just don't play it then!!!" argument is so old, how come you have yet to answer the quesiton? Only impunate those who dare ask it. After all there are thousands of games out there that don't require grinding. It's not like it's play WoW or play nothing. Do you need help? I'd be happy to point out some more appealing games to you if you so desire. One's that aren't so "poorly designed".
Well at least you can see the game is lacking here, nice to hear the admission, jedimario. Perhaps not the best way to engage in a lively debate, conceeding your position so early on, but a nice gesture never the less.
My point exactly, thank you for reaffirming it. You clearly understand some of the logical reasoning behind buying gold. As for the "no unfair advantage" part, I believe the previous post was addressing high-end gameplay loot.
See, there you go again, clearly stating the problem. "... who have a much harder time legitimately getting that money." It just shouldn't be so, I tell you! It's not fair! However, there is a legitimate solution for them. They should run some trade mat routes, I am always glad to pay 1g47s for a stack of copper ore, or 1g for a stack of small eggs... or 6 or 7g for a stack of briarthorn. If they are willing to work so hard and grind it out, I am willing to support them with cold hard cash in the AH. One more time... I've never had anyone complain about getting 1g47s for a stack of copper ore and ANYONE can crank up a miner and harvest 20 copper ore post haste if they so choose to spend the time doing so. However, just buying some gold is much more efficient on a time-management scale.
Stating, "But it is irrelevant," right after stating, "...you'll say the economy in WoW is broken." is a cheap shot and greatly diminishes your position in the rest of your post. Stating "But it is irrelevant," without backing up your claim is most definitely arguing the point... just poorly so. Besides, the broken economy is really the core issue of my argument. No fair skirting around that... or firing off a one shot. I would be doing you a great disservice not to call you out on that one.
Oops, it is actually because of a portion of broken game mechanics linked to a poorly designed and implemented free market economy based on a broken supply and demand model that there continues to be a market for Gold-Sellers. Gold-sellers came first, then gold buyers. Gold sellers came first because there was a substantial demand created by a broken/incomplete/poorly implemented economic model.
It's unfortunate, the whole gold spamming thing, and very irritating. I think Blizzard should definitely do something about that.
Just because the majority of people responding to this thread oppose my position doesn't mean there are only just a few who agree with my position. This thread is not a accurate statistical measurement. Just look at how many gold-sellers there are. There is a huge demand. Absolutely HUGE to support all of them. Apparently, I'm doing such a fine job of stating our common position boldly that few of the other gold-buyers cruising this thread feel the need to chime in. Also, as gold buyers, we are notoriously uninterested in what other people think. Quite the neutral chaotic lot, really. I'm an anomoly to be sure.
Furthermore, I take exception to the wonton sarcasm in your statement. I'm the only who is supposed to be wontonly sarcastic here! That is my role. And you are threatening my role. And I don't like it. Not one bit. No sir, not at all.
Really though, I do help other people. But that is sort of irrelevant, isn't it? Just for kicks and giggles and to demonstrate that you are quite incorrect I'll tell the world that just the other evening I helped some poor lowbie sap run from Menethil Harbor, through the Wetlands, Loch Modan & Thelsamar (to get his flightpoint,), through Dun Murough and on up to Ironforge. Took quite a bit of time but it was an enjoyable run... and I gave him 20gold to boot because he was poorly equipped for such hazardous journeys. He was quite pleased and didn't ask where I got the gold. In fact, come to think of it, I've never been asked by anyone where I get the gold I give. Funny that. People are generally very appreciative of my generosity when I do give them gold. They really light up and do all sorts of fun dances for me.
I'm sorry, Jedimario, apparently I'm lacking in some gaming experience and thus not quite so geekily studly as you. I'm actually pretty ok with that. Admittedly I never have played a Final Fantasy game, though I did watch the movie. (That should set someone off, shouldn't it Ningxi?) Since I can't speak intelligently on that point, I'll let it ride. You win that one. Well done.
Based on your information here, it would appear that there is some demand for grinding in "poorly designed" games, if grinding is indeed part of these games. I really don't get that. To each his own then. I'm cool with anyone and everyone who just loves to grind away. Don't let me stop any of you!
I'll pass on your blatant baiting to take on the whole "lazy" thing. But as I mentioned before, I didn't play Final Fantasy. I am, however, keenly interested to know how on earth you knew I thought it was a poorly designed game? That's simply amazing!!! See, this is where you just start ranting. Quite entertaining really. Again, thank you, jedimario. Very charming of you.
That's funny. I'm actually laughing right now! I mentioned right in my post, even begged someone not to play that sad old song... but you did! You jumped right in. Stellar performance!
Ummm.... did you really just equate "gameplay" with "grinding?" You keep using that word... I do not think it means what you think it means.
I've answered that question SO many times and SO many other people have answered that question SO many times that it is now common knowledge. If you don't know the answer by now, you either haven't been listening to the gaming community at large or have chosen to selectively block out the answer. Thus... the reference to a sad, tired old song. It just keeps playing... and playing... and playing... like Phil Collins on the radio in '89-'90. I can still hear him, "Oh, think twice, it's another day for you and me in paradise." I'm still sick of that song... even though the message was quite wonderful. It was just way overplayed.
But for you, my young apprentice, I will respond yet one more time and this time use WoW as my example. For the record yet one more time and as I have confessed many times in this thread with great enthusiasm, I thoroughly enjoy WoW. It is an amazing, beautiful and wonderful game and I love playing it. I love playing it all the more because I buy gold that slightly eases the tedium of useless, mind-numbing grinding that is a symptom of a broken supply and demand model/system and some less than stellar gameplay mechanics.
As is the case in real life, it is quite possible and quite frequent that a person may wholly love an entity but be driven to abject frustration by a certain aspect of said entity. Thus, that sad song, "All or Nothing. If you hate it so much don't play it" is quite ludicrous when supplied in this context. "All or Nothing" is also typically unacceptable in an intelligent debate; humanity just really isn't all that black and white. (I really didn't want to go there, friend, but you were asking me to, so now I have and I feel no better for it even though it was for your sake.)
Herein lies the crux of the response; while I and many other fans of World of Warcraft love the game, we dissent on some points of the gameplay. For us, these points are not significant enough to yield an entirely negative verdict such that we no longer wish to play the game ('hate it' as you say,) particularly when there is a viable workaround that is readily available. Buying gold sooths the minor dissent and makes the game that much more enjoyable for me and many, many others.
Now, is that your rule? I'll note it for future reference. No doubt I wish to play by your rules.
As I mentioned before, I am quite happy playing WoW- it is quite an appealing game overall and very well designed with the exception of a few gameplay mechanics. But those are easily overcome.
Well, if it is the core issue of your argument, then your argument is poorly based. I didn't state why it is irrevelant simply because in my perusal of these forums I have seen the exact point made before. The game was made by Blizzard and Blizzard makes the rules for it. Blizzard doesn't have to let any of us play, but they do anyway. Regardless about what you feel is a broken mechanic, that doesn't make it ok to buy gold. It's irrelevant. The only thing that matters are the rules Blizzard sets down. If you think the economy sucks, then complain to Blizzard about it. Maybe even suggest an answer if you have one. If you already have done so then I applaud you for it. But a broken mechanic doesn't make it ok to break the rules.
True. And just because other people agree with you doesn't mean you're right either.
Never said it was. Just said that there are some people out there not very happy about it.
I'd say that's pretty clear.
Ha! Now that made me laugh. I am not threatening my role. Although I am flattered that you think so.
Yeah I guess I wasn't listening...so sue me
But for you, my young apprentice, I will respond yet one more time and this time use WoW as my example. For the record yet one more time and as I have confessed many times in this thread with great enthusiasm, I thoroughly enjoy WoW. It is an amazing, beautiful and wonderful game and I love playing it. I love playing it all the more because I buy gold that slightly eases the tedium of useless, mind-numbing grinding that is a symptom of a broken supply and demand model/system and some less than stellar gameplay mechanics.
As is the case in real life, it is quite possible and quite frequent that a person may wholly love an entity but be driven to abject frustration by a certain aspect of said entity. Thus, that sad song, "All or Nothing. If you hate it so much don't play it" is quite ludicrous when supplied in this context. "All or Nothing" is also typically unacceptable in an intelligent debate; humanity just really isn't all that black and white. (I really didn't want to go there, friend, but you were asking me to, so now I have and I feel no better for it even though it was for your sake.)
Herein lies the crux of the response; while I and many other fans of World of Warcraft love the game, we dissent on some points of the gameplay. For us, these points are not significant enough to yield an entirely negative verdict such that we no longer wish to play the game ('hate it' as you say,) particularly when there is a viable workaround that is readily available. Buying gold sooths the minor dissent and makes the game that much more enjoyable for me and many, many others.
I have to admit. I don't get it. Grinding is such a huge part of WoW. You hate grinding, which I can understand. I get tired of myself at times. I guess I can't see how you would love to play WoW when grinding is the main thrust of the game, at least until you hit 70, and even then it's still grinding, just in a different way. I would understand if there were smaller issues with the game that irritated you, yet you still loved it. After all, every game has at least a few small issues. But WoW is grinding. And I guess I partially misunderstood you as well. It seems to me that a very, very, large portion of what you are righing on this thread was very negative about WoW. I guess that was just because of the particular discussion at hand. I don't understand it. But you understand one of my biggest peeves is people who all they do is complain about WoW, and yet they still play it. It seemed like you were one of those guys but at least you said some good things about the game.
I agree with this article. I know many companies are selling golds. Our players should be more cautious, don't buy the golds.
Blizzard is not nearly so high-minded, really. They would not have made the game except to make money... and they do so only by people playing. There is no "don't have to let us play." If Blizzard held such a position, there would be no WoW. WoW has no other purpose than for people to pay to play.
It is quite relevant. It is the entire point, actually. The only thing that matters is that I enjoy the game- that's the point of games! I have submitted my opinions to Blizzard regarding the condition of their economy and my input was met with an underwhelming pre-generated response and most impersonal response.
A broken mechanic is all the reason I need to break the rules in a virtual world. In RL, this happens all the time and to quite good effect many times. It's amazing how many systems get fixed when people break the rules underlying a broken system. But I am not so high-minded here. I think it would be wonderful if Blizzard would fix the root problem someday. Until then, I'm content with the workaround. And I'm certainly not so high-minded as to suggest here that the sole purpose I'm buying gold is for the sake of the rest of the WoW community; a protest of sorts. That's just silly and I won't go there.
Right, wrong, indifferent... blah, blah, blah. Virtual morality in a virtual world. Funny that. I just think it's so interesting how people feel so much more free to buck the system in virtuality- the anonymity reigns. And then how others respond with great self-righteousness, even piety- very much "holier than thou." Paladins and Rogues all! No middle ground. For instance, I am much more bold here in virtuality, and even crass and semi-chaotic. Very rogue-ish of me, isn't it? I come off with a self-centered air that creates a certain elevated level of loathing in others toward me (even though they are just as self-centered... they just don't wear it on their sleeves, as I have here.)
But, in RL, I would never go where I've gone in this thread. (that's going to tweak some people who really feel that virtuality is but an extension of reality... even though we're playing with dwarves, elves, swords, dragons and spells. We defy mortality in virtuality but somehow increase our own morality. Weird.) In reality I'm a soft-spoken, very kind, service oriented teddy-bear type. I love playing in the sandbox of a virtual world, even in virtual forums. It's fun role-playing, isn't it? But see, now I've gone and done it... burst the bubble. I'm no longer much of a target of loathing in the community cuz I've let the cat out of the bag. It's not a problem, this thread has really seen more than it's share of time in this forum and is quickly going the way of an old, aging MMO (and rightly so.) It's all Role-playing. In fact, now you're not so sure I buy gold at all, are you? You would never know it by meeting me in the game...
Your argument was based on the number of people responding to the thread. That is using a statistical measurement to support your argument whether you said it was or not...
Yes, there is plenty of grinding in WoW, but buying gold really goes quite a long ways to relieve the frustration of grinding and a broken economic model. It speeds things up substantially and I am then able to get on with the greater joy of really immersing myself in the rest of the wonderful World of Warcraft. Really though, there are many many dynamics in WoW besides grinding that make it such a lovable game.
There are a few abberations in the player community who really do love grinding. I know one of them and he is otherwise a relatively normal fellow. For the most part, grinding is universally distained but quietly tolerated because few are willing to protest substantially enough about it for developers to get creative and put systems in place that alleviate the problem. Some even embrace the tedium of grinding, do their best to find the positives in it, and they'll defend the broken mechanic to the death. Very strange. But we do that sort of thing in RL too. May of us go to great lengths to justify a meager and unprovocative, menial existence in our Dilbert Cubes. After all, it is much easier on the heart just to play the game and tolerate the broken parts than it is to actually do something about it. After all, it is just life and hardly worth the effort of a substantial protest. For many of us who hold a harder line on the virtuality of games, it is easy to depart from the norm (what exactly is the 'norm' in a virtual world, anyway?) and we find ways to compensate for poor development in one area or another, even if and sometimes especially if said departure is against the rules in a virtual world.
http://www.mercextra.com/blogs/aei/2007/01/12/world_of_warcra/
That is an old press release, just before BC came out. It does list in the breakdown that majority of subs are in China alone. Coincidence that most farmers come from that same country? Don't think so. I've seen prime time newscasts that did subjects on the gold farming business, they were all based in China.
http://mmogdata.voig.com/
That link has a lot of charts showing various info, one of which shows that overwhelmingly ingame advertising is NOT approved of.
Now we know there has to be a lot of farmers out there. Just check the web and you'll see numerous sites for buying gold, SOMEONE has to be farming all this gold. Since many adverstise they have "over 2 million gold in stock", and there are more than one site that says this, that is a LOT of players. So my estimate of 10% was conservative. There are about 250 servers, so do the math. A mere 10 people per server cannot amass 2 million gold. Would take hundreds per server to stockpile that much gold. Remember there is a cap for gold, 214k I think it was listed but I can't find that link.
So Blizzard does not need to fix the supply & demand model. It was originally designed with people playing the game as intended, without a secondary market. Add this secondary market and it adds an element out of Blizzard's control that affects the ingame economy. This isn't unique to WoW, Sony had problems with this with both EQ1 and EQ2. They did cave in a bit and made an exchange server, which they got a lot of negative press about.
Yes I have heard of mules, I have a bankbot myself. However, typically if a level one is selling an epic, makes ya wonder why not selling on their main? Usually people think (1) ninja looter or (2) gold farmer. Exceptions are made if the level one is guilded with a well known guild. Example if there is a guild called "WoW Knights" you may have a level one named wowknightbot guilded with WoW Knights.
In order to have powerleveling services you HAVE to give an account and password, how else do you think you get your 70 epic warlock you paid for? They don't character transfer it to your account and they sure as heck aren't going to give you THEIR account info are they? Rarely do people have an empty account, though I'm sure that's possible.
Finally I am not ranting I posted my opinion and then listed the fact that it is a form of cheating because the TOS and EULA you agreed to say so. That is not a rant, it's a fact. You clicked "I Agree" and buy gold you violated the agreement, short way to say it is "cheating". Don't believe me read the agreement next time they patch instead of just clicking "I Agree" without knowing what you are agreeing to.
i think there should just make a game that doesn't support/require gold farming
Yeah, I'm sure there are probably quite a few gold farmers on each server. But your estimate of 10% has no basis in statisictical fact, it is nothing more than an unsubstantiated guestimate that cannot be substantiated by any means available to us. It's a very competitive market to be sure. Your numbers don't work, but I agree with you none the less, there are very many gold farmers out there.
That is true as well. Blizzard does not need to fix the supply & demand model. In fact, the 3rd part gold business is booming because they haven't felt the need to fix it. However, if Blizzard wants to drop the bottom out of the 3rd party gold market they really do need to fix the supply & demand model. All their banning and threatening to ban and pleading and begging is clearly not working. Bottom line? The supply & demand model is clearly not well thought out, at least not for a wonderful free market economy like WoW has. Also, original designs that are broken get fixed all the time, and thank goodness they do! I feel much safer flying on jets today because poor designs are improved upon and fixed. Whew!
Blizzard programmed the game. It's well within their control to determine what affects and what doesn't affect the ingame economy. Nothing outside the game affects inside the game without Blizzard opening the door for it to happen, intentional or not. That is the hard fact of computer programming. Nothing happens in virtuality that is not the responsibility of the human engineers doing the work in reality. That is also why software companies patch vulnerabilities in their software- because they understand that it is their responsibility to do so. Blizzard is not exempt.
However, for some reason that escapes me, they have chosen not to fix this vulnerability. Either the problem is working in their favor and the messages and bannings and pleadings and beggings are presented only to placate the angry masses or the fix is so complex that the return on the investment to fix it is not substantial enough to warrant the fix. That's my best shot at trying to figure out why they haven't fixed this problem already. Anyone else have any idea why they haven't fixed it?
Yeah, isn't that crazy? It would appear to be a plague and blight on the MMO industry as a whole. I completely agree, these broken economies... ugh. I wish they would fix them all.
I've never thought "Ninja Looter or gold farmer" when I've seen that... and I've spent dozens and dozens of hours playing the AH game with Auctioneer. Do you have some inside statistical means of finding out what people "usually" think? If you do, you should definitely get a patent attorney on that one... you are soon to be very much in-demand and wealthy to boot if you play it right.
Giving anyone an account username and password is just begging for big trouble. I personally strongly discourage the practice- it is very dangerous and could get said account stripped and even banned by Blizzard. Ouch!
Actually, yeah, toward the end of your earlier post it was a little rantish. C'mon now!. Just keepin' it real!
This will be my last rebuttal to jasco20 as he seems to either be not understanding what I am saying or just refusing to listen. So here goes...
As a seasoned gold buyer, as you called yourself, you can't seriously believe that the sellers do not have a large stock of gold. If you "just" bought 500g, do you honestly think you are the only one? Even if there are only a dozen or so people per server buying gold, "tiny" amounts like 500g would add up quickly and if they can't keep up with the demand they go out of business. So fine, maybe they don't have 2 million gold. They surely have vastly more than 500g stockpiled, so a conservative estimate would be what only tens of thousands? That is still an awful lot of gold and takes a lot of farming to amass that much.
My numbers don't work because it is hard to get exact numbers. Until the farmer gets caught he's a subscriber like everyone else. I said 10% of Asian markets because that was a relativelly low percentage, but still yielding a lot of total farmers. At around 250 servers, you know they have to have multiple people per server collecting gold or high-value items.
You cannot compare and abstract economic model to a functional aircraft. Did you know you have a better chance of surviving a crash in a WWI bi-plane than in a modern jet? Anways, back on this topic. Blizzard made a game and intended items and gold to enter the economy at a certain rate, the secondary market is drastically altering this. An example is there were lanterns that used to drop off venture company goblins in STV that sold for about 1g each. They intended them to be an uncommon drop for players to make some xtra cash if they got lucky and got one. The farmers camped the goblins to the point Blizzard was forced to change the items to gray quality and only valued a few silver. Now I've been penalized for something the secondary market did.
The supply & demand model, is basically the gear-based system that many MMO's use. Even in games that don't use it, such as City of Heroes, the farmers are still dabbling in trying to make a buck. In CoH however, if I find an influence spammer (that games currency) I can actually ignore his account so doesn't matter if he deletes the level one and makes another I will be globally ignoring all characters from that account. If blizzard could impliment something like that would greatly cut down on their advertising ability. Sure, they could start a new account but that costs money to buy a new copy of the game and expansion.
Unfortunately you cannot compare actions of the secondary market to a bug in a program. A bug is something in their code that they find and fix. The secondary market is not a bug in their code, it is a behaviour of a 3rd party. They have patched the code trying to discourage and inconvenience them, but they can only do so much. One problem is as I said before, til they are caught they are a subscriber like everyone else. The second is the buyer needs to suffer the same penalty, meaning you buy the gold YOU get banned.
My comment on the ninja looter does not require a snarky remark. It is how it has been since the farmers and ninja's started doing it. If you see an unguilded level one selling an epic item they are (1) a ninja looter or (2) a farmer. That is why many people who use a character slot as their mule, do not give him gibberish names and tag him with the guild they are in. So the players can see where the item came from such as "Knightsofwowmule" would be from the guild Knights of WoW. As for the statistical evidence of what people think you can loot at the link I had before showing the chart of vastly disapproving of ingame ads and blizzard's actions of adding Report Spam to mail and chat windows. The 1 hour delay for money was also done as a way to discourage them and the players didn't seem to mind.... much.
So you're a gold buyer, there is nothing more I can say. You will ignore or twist what I say to rationalize what you do. You will blame me, my stats, blizzard or anyone else to make you feel "in the right". You are violating the TOS that you agreed to, whether blizzard can or can't fix it is irrelevant, you agreed to abide by certain rules and you knowingly, willingly broke those rules.
Say what you will to this I am no longer watching this thread. Good day.
I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately, this is just another in a long list of things Blizzard could be doing, but for whatever reason chooses not to.
Most of the gold sellers are hosted in countries where you have no legal ability to stop them
The dumb thing is that gold has gotten so plentiful in these games that only the most extremely lazy players find it hard to get the gold they need
To get started, drownoble, understanding and agreeing are two different things. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I don't understand you. And just because you leave gaping holes in your arguments and I respond, doesn't mean I am refusing to listen either. I understand your position and what you are saying quite well. You are a very clear communicator. It is just that your position is weak and I can't help but take advantage of that.
Since I have to wait 3-5 days or more to receive an order of 500 gold while they are out harvesting it, that would be a pretty good indicator that they do not have said gold in stock. Kind of like when I go to store and have to take a raincheck... generally means the store is out of stock. I do not serioiusly believe a store would hold out on selling me an item right then when I am providing the cash to buy it. So, I can indeed seriously believe that the sellers do not have a large stock of gold. The information you present has no basis in fact or experience while the information I present comes from first hand experience; in fact, many first hand experiences with many gold sellers.-- 10% is a baseless guess, then.
I most certainly can and I did. It was an illustrative comparison designed to yield a more thorough understanding of the issue, not a attribute comparison, you should know the difference in a debate such as this. Apples and oranges have quite different attributes. However, for someone who has never seen an apple, I can use the example of an orange to help the person understand that an apple is roundish.
You nailed it! They "intended" items an gold to enter the economy at a certain rate. You know what they say about intentions, right? There has to be something significantly more than intentions when programming a game. Yes, if Blizzard had learned from the many MMO's that went before it, they would have realized that secondary market is a problem. If only they had observed and implemented a fully functioning and balanced supply and demand model along with intelligent and provacative gameplay (in place of grinding,) then we wouldn't be struggling with a secondary market at all. There would be no demand for it.
Not completely accurate! WoW's supply & demand model goes far beyond gear. But unless you've used a tool like Auctioneer accompanied by some good tracking spreadsheets to play the economy in the AH, you probably would not see the complexity of the free market economy at work. The entire economy is based on a broken supply & demand model.
For nearly 3 months I ran a futures trading business in WoW. A lot of players made a lot of gold from my efforts and I made a lot of gold from them as well. I set up syndicated investments and provided statistical data that demonstrated the market fluctuations were predictable. I harvested data from a number of large guild sites; when they were planning high-end raids that would yield a lot of gear that would end up on the AH. Thus I was able to fairly accurately predict the disenchanting bidding wars that always followed. I set up a 3-tier mutual fund trading in enchanting materials that performed quite well until a large guild grabbed hold of what I was doing and flooded the market with mats, then it became too volatile and I pulled out- no longer worth the effort. I realized I just wanted to go play the PvE game and the economic game was simply far too consuming and time intensive. It's much simpler just to buy some gold. Now, if Blizzard would just fix the supply & demand model, the economy could really take off.
I'm with you, I do wish Blizzard would implement an Ignore Account feature.
Who said anything about a bug? Bugs are not the only problems with software, drownoble. The problem with the Supply & Demand model is certainly not a bug. It is programming that works for what it does, but it is simply broken in the sense that the balance of supply & demand is way off and not in congruity with the gameplay mechanics required to harvest the supply.
True that it is not a bug. As I have been saying all along, the secondary market is nothing more than a symptom of a broken supply & demand model; a model which is an incomplete economic system where the holes allow the light to shine brightly on the problem. Enough so, so that enterprising individuals can clearly see the demand problem. Coupled with the gameplay mechanics that exist that allow them to provide the much-in-demand supply that the game does not- and they are having a hay day.
You say, "They can only do so much." That would be implying a lack of creativity and intelligence in the programming staff at Blizzard when it is quite clear by looking at the many other systems in WoW that the programming staff are very creative and very intelligent! You should be nicer to them, they are working their collective butts off for us!
Got me there, no snarky remark required... however, I was feeling quite snarky at the moment. Forgive me.
Funny thing about statistics, they only apply as a specific metric of the system being analyzed. So to imply that you could know what other people think about a level 1 character trading an epic based on statists that measure approval rating regarding advertising is nothing short of ludicrous.
I haven't rationalized anything. I have no need to rationalize any of my actions. The primary focus of this thread and particularly my exchange with you was a debate centered on Blizzards responsibility to fix the economic and gameplay mechanics problem. It was about whether or not the problem was blizzards and my attempt to present evidence that it is, in fact, Blizzards doing and they are responsible to fix it! I've not spent one word defending or rationalizing my actions.
No, I won't. I take responsibility for my actions. We all have reasons for doing what we do. I have my reasons for doing what I do and I've stated them quite clearly much earlier in this post, but I take responsibility for my actions. If my account gets banned, I take responsibility for that- it is not blizzards fault since I am clearly breaking the rules of their TOS.
However, WoW is a game; it is virtuality. Who says "right" and "wrong" from reality need apply? I think I've addressed the "virtual morality" issue as well. It would appear it is you who is not listening or understanding. I'm not feeling "in the wrong" even though I am clearly breaking the TOS, so there is no drive for me to do anything to feel "in the right." You are assuming that I am as apt as you to carry over reality morality into a virtual game.
Absolutely, I did. But what does that have to do with our conversation about the economic model? You have lost focus again, drownoble and have polluted a perfectly good debate with irrelevant points- very poor form, I must say.
But for the sake of debate, what's wrong with breaking Blizzards rules? They are rules that apply to a virtual world (making them virtual rules, btw) made up of virtual dwarves, elves, mages etc fighting virtual golems, dragons, giant spiders etc and using virtual gear bought with virtual gold or virtually earned in virtual time. It all borders on virtual lunacy!
Glad you finally caved and conceeded, drownoble. I am weary of trying to keep you on task...