Also, the population argument has become pretty old now. SWG is old, just look at games that came out about the same time that were similarly popular, DOAC for example is only slightly older and suffering from similar problems even after essentially combining down to 4 servers. Like any game that is mature, if you don't know where to look for players, you won't find many players. Last piece of advice: if you don't like SWG and NGE, don't go back and try it just to write a negative review. Calling current players selfish for wanting to play SWG is nothing compared to intentionally attempting to blacklist their game for your own petty age old grudge against SOE.
My opinion on the last bit of advice is "stuff it". It's not the game that's being targeted nearly as much as the Sony Online Entertainment who committed wire fraud agasint their existing fan/sub base. SWG shoudln't get blacklisted (actually, it should) but ALL games going through SOE should be marked off as well.
Fact = SWG is still a VERY lacking experiance 28months after the "nge" was pushed out. The dynamics and diversity haven't fully returned and the combat system is more flawed now then it had been in any presvious state. Then there's the matter with completly poor GUI which needs extensive modification to make the game semi playable.
Comparing age/maturity of an online game to SWG's population is silly. Care to take a look at EVE Online? Their population continues to increase 'cs the developer includes the subscriber base into the business model. What a novel concept...
Last piece of advice: if you don't like SWG and NGE, don't go back and try it just to write a negative review. Calling current players selfish for wanting to play SWG is nothing compared to intentionally attempting to blacklist their game for your own petty age old grudge against SOE.
I was going to type out a well thought up and negative post against you. But ill suffice with: No thanks, I wont be swept under the rug.. i'll let every new player know that plays that game or is looking to play that game about SoE's lies, what they did to the community... etc etc etc.
No...
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
Obraik, while I barely know him beyond his posts always seems to have great information. Helps people get into the game, and wants people in general to have fun with the game.
True enough, but I wish he'd take that enthusiasm and helpfulness to a game and company that's more deserving of it.
Indeed. No offense to the dude at all... but it truly boggles my mind how people can defend this game in its current state after all SoE has done to them and is still doing...
Its like someone coming up to your car and putting a HUGE key mark on it (NGE)... and you saying "its ok... ill live with it" and all the while after they put more small key marks on it (all the buggy little stuff and promises broken afterward)..
I mean for petes sake people theres a couple of professions that are 90% useless.... um... munitions?
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
Obraik, while I barely know him beyond his posts always seems to have great information. Helps people get into the game, and wants people in general to have fun with the game.
True enough, but I wish he'd take that enthusiasm and helpfulness to a game and company that's more deserving of it.
Agreed! They don't deserve his loyalty that he has displayed. They should be sending him a paycheck. Unfortunately they love players like him that further their cause without having to do any work , or having to pay for it.
Obraik means very well and he is informative, his main problem is that he doesn't call it both ways. He 100% ignores the problems and ONLY informs people of the good aspects.
He claims server populations are good, yet the MOST people he can show on a server are 50.
He tells people who want an HONEST evaluation of the game only what SOE would want that prospective customer to know.
In all honesty, SWG is one of the buggiest MMO's around. It is a mutated version of a single-player FPS with the remnants of a sandbox. It has a tiny development team and will never see another expansion, perhaps not even further chapters after the next one, who knows. If you have played in the past 2 years, especially in the past 6 months (which I have) it is OBVIOUS that the game has the smallest population it EVER has.
There is no problem being enthusiastic about the game you enjoy playing, but at least demonstrate the ability to honestly acknowledge the problems/issues, which to everyone else are glaring.
Obraik means very well and he is informative, his main problem is that he doesn't call it both ways. He 100% ignores the problems and ONLY informs people of the good aspects. He claims server populations are good, yet the MOST people he can show on a server are 50. He tells people who want an HONEST evaluation of the game only what SOE would want that prospective customer to know. In all honesty, SWG is one of the buggiest MMO's around. It is a mutated version of a single-player FPS with the remnants of a sandbox. It has a tiny development team and will never see another expansion, perhaps not even further chapters after the next one, who knows. If you have played in the past 2 years, especially in the past 6 months (which I have) it is OBVIOUS that the game has the smallest population it EVER has. There is no problem being enthusiastic about the game you enjoy playing, but at least demonstrate the ability to honestly acknowledge the problems/issues, which to everyone else are glaring.
I'm sure Obraik is a terrific guy and brings a lot to an online community, and that I can admire. However many people see the NGE as being very unethical and a dangerous business practice. Obraik, being a vocal supporter of post-NGE SWG and a recruiter of new gamers, is essentially helping to make this business practice a success. This, coupled with the observation that he rarely discusses current problems with the game (or marginalizes them) , is not helping to achieve accountablity of SoE as the provider of a product and service. He chooses his words very carefully and responds only to things that do not place him (or SWG) in a position of scrutiny. It's truely a talent in how he does it, but transparent to those who see it. But again, I'm sure he's a great guy and I would like the opportunity to know him in another game that offers a dynamic and exciting community similar to pre-CU SWG. Until then I view him as a supporter of something that I find fundamentally wrong.
Well, the "problems" people have with the game is going to vary from person to person. For example, some here see the combat speed as a problem with the game at the moment whereas I prefer the faster speed.
As I've mentioned in the past, the issues I have aren't always relavent to these forums as many won't be able to relate to them (as they don't play the game and probably don't know what I'm talking about). I post these on the official forums where my issues are more likely to get more support from other players and more likely to be viewed by the Devs.
Well that's part of the problem. You're actively recruiting people into a game that has problems, and you're not discussing those probelms here where those recruits may see them before you encourage them to pay for a subscription.
I'm not going to write a mini-review of the game in every post I make. If a problem I have is relavent to the discussion I'll mention it. Bringing up that I want reward armour craftable because it's useless in its current form isn't going to be relavent in alot of discussions, for example.
Your example isn't a problem - it's by design.
Ruberbanding is a probelm that affects a great number of people but I don't see you offering that info. Nor does misfiring specials. Do you inform new gamers of these issues?
As I said before when you offer new people links to helpful tips how about offering them a link to problems as well so they can decide if they even want to start a game that has those issues. I think that's only fair.
But again that doesn't even cover the ethical issues of supporting the NGE. I'm sure you will tell people that you don't have a probelm with it, but that still doesn't make it accpetable IMO. It's still supporting a corporation and a game that will intentionally dump it's paying subscribers for more money.
So, I suppose that is the fundamental difference between you and I. As a consumer I cannot roll over and accept what's happened for my own consumer protection and choose to speak out against it. Essentially I see you as part of the problem because of your acceptance of it and encouraging others to do the same.
As I said, everyones idea of a problem is going to differ from person to person. I don't get rubberbanding so that's not an issue to me. Specials not firing isn't common in my case, maybe a once a week thing if that.
Ethical issues? You're right, I don't have a problem with it because I don't feel as deeply affected by the changes as others here. If I enjoy a game, I'm not going to stop playing it because someone thinks the company is unethical. If I let my choices be decided by others opinions on what's ethical or not there's ALOT of things in this world that I would probably need to go without.
Ethical issues? You're right, I don't have a problem with it because I don't feel as deeply affected by the changes as others here. If I enjoy a game, I'm not going to stop playing it because someone thinks the company is unethical. If I let my choices be decided by others opinions on what's ethical or not there's ALOT of things in this world that I would probably need to go without.
Well that's rather short-sighted IMO as this NGE fiasco can be a very dangerous precedent for this MMO industry. Surely you must see that by supporting it in an atempt to make it successful condemns all of us to more of the same in the future.
Your choice isn't as easy as playing a game because you like it. You're intentionally ignoring a crucial moment in the evolution of MMO's because you simply want more people to play with.
Essentially you're part of the problem this indusrty and genre is facing - complacency and apathy.
Ethical issues? You're right, I don't have a problem with it because I don't feel as deeply affected by the changes as others here. If I enjoy a game, I'm not going to stop playing it because someone thinks the company is unethical. If I let my choices be decided by others opinions on what's ethical or not there's ALOT of things in this world that I would probably need to go without.
Well that's rather short-sighted IMO as this NGE fiasco can be a very dangerous precedent for this MMO industry. Surely you must see that by supporting it in an atempt to make it successful condemns all of us to more of the same in the future.
Your choice isn't as easy as playing a game because you like it. You're intentionally ignoring a crucial moment in the evolution of MMO's because you simply want more people to play with.
Essentially you're part of the problem this indusrty and genre is facing - complacency and apathy.
Firstly, I don't "recruit" people to play with - I very rarely see the people that play the game because they saw my posts here. I recommend the game to people because it might be the kind of game they find fun.
I guess I don't put so much "ethical value" on a game. Infact, computers in general really. If I did, I probably wouldn't be using Windows, Office or other Microsoft related products that people out there like to state are the spawn of the devil.
I feel that the game experience speaks for itself, and makes a greater argument against the NGE than can be made otherwise.
Try it for yourself. Click the link in my sig. Within an hour of landing in Mos Eisley and starting the Legacy you will experience every flaw that the game has, stuff that is unacceptable in a BETA, much less in a 5 year old game.
I'm sure Obraik is a terrific guy and brings a lot to an online community, and that I can admire. However many people see the NGE as being very unethical and a dangerous business practice. Obraik, being a vocal supporter of post-NGE SWG and a recruiter of new gamers, is essentially helping to make this business practice a success. This, coupled with the observation that he rarely discusses current problems with the game (or marginalizes them) , is not helping to achieve accountablity of SoE as the provider of a product and service. He chooses his words very carefully and responds only to things that do not place him (or SWG) in a position of scrutiny. It's truely a talent in how he does it, but transparent to those who see it. But again, I'm sure he's a great guy and I would like the opportunity to know him in another game that offers a dynamic and exciting community similar to pre-CU SWG. Until then I view him as a supporter of something that I find fundamentally wrong.
Well, the "problems" people have with the game is going to vary from person to person. For example, some here see the combat speed as a problem with the game at the moment whereas I prefer the faster speed.
As I've mentioned in the past, the issues I have aren't always relavent to these forums as many won't be able to relate to them (as they don't play the game and probably don't know what I'm talking about). I post these on the official forums where my issues are more likely to get more support from other players and more likely to be viewed by the Devs.
Well that's part of the problem. You're actively recruiting people into a game that has problems, and you're not discussing those probelms here where those recruits may see them before you encourage them to pay for a subscription.
I'm not going to write a mini-review of the game in every post I make. If a problem I have is relavent to the discussion I'll mention it. Bringing up that I want reward armour craftable because it's useless in its current form isn't going to be relavent in alot of discussions, for example.
Your example isn't a problem - it's by design.
Ruberbanding is a probelm that affects a great number of people but I don't see you offering that info. Nor does misfiring specials. Do you inform new gamers of these issues?
As I said before when you offer new people links to helpful tips how about offering them a link to problems as well so they can decide if they even want to start a game that has those issues. I think that's only fair.
But again that doesn't even cover the ethical issues of supporting the NGE. I'm sure you will tell people that you don't have a probelm with it, but that still doesn't make it accpetable IMO. It's still supporting a corporation and a game that will intentionally dump it's paying subscribers for more money.
So, I suppose that is the fundamental difference between you and I. As a consumer I cannot roll over and accept what's happened for my own consumer protection and choose to speak out against it. Essentially I see you as part of the problem because of your acceptance of it and encouraging others to do the same.
As I said, everyones idea of a problem is going to differ from person to person. I don't get rubberbanding so that's not an issue to me. Specials not firing isn't common in my case, maybe a once a week thing if that.
Ethical issues? You're right, I don't have a problem with it because I don't feel as deeply affected by the changes as others here. If I enjoy a game, I'm not going to stop playing it because someone thinks the company is unethical. If I let my choices be decided by others opinions on what's ethical or not there's ALOT of things in this world that I would probably need to go without.
So you don't think what SoE did with SWG via the NGE, something that none of us asked for, is unethical? Them not careing for our outcry afterwards, unethical?
Sure I agree that people make mistakes, but something that is done on purpose for nothing but their gain and with no consideration to us, NOT EVEN ASKING US or LISTENING TO THEIR OWN TESTERS, is not just a "simple" mistake.
Sure that the agreement says it may change a bit.... but how much is too much?
Think about it.
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
Also, the population argument has become pretty old now. SWG is old, just look at games that came out about the same time that were similarly popular, DOAC for example is only slightly older and suffering from similar problems even after essentially combining down to 4 servers. Like any game that is mature, if you don't know where to look for players, you won't find many players. Last piece of advice: if you don't like SWG and NGE, don't go back and try it just to write a negative review. Calling current players selfish for wanting to play SWG is nothing compared to intentionally attempting to blacklist their game for your own petty age old grudge against SOE.
My opinion on the last bit of advice is "stuff it". It's not the game that's being targeted nearly as much as the Sony Online Entertainment who committed wire fraud agasint their existing fan/sub base. SWG shoudln't get blacklisted (actually, it should) but ALL games going through SOE should be marked off as well.
Fact = SWG is still a VERY lacking experiance 28months after the "nge" was pushed out. The dynamics and diversity haven't fully returned and the combat system is more flawed now then it had been in any presvious state. Then there's the matter with completly poor GUI which needs extensive modification to make the game semi playable.
Comparing age/maturity of an online game to SWG's population is silly. Care to take a look at EVE Online? Their population continues to increase 'cs the developer includes the subscriber base into the business model. What a novel concept...
FACT = Your fact is an opinion. I could give you my opinion on the combat system and UI too, but you wouldn't care any more than I care for yours. I still say you "SOE haters" still hold a petty grudge, not to mention it has become pretty old in terms of mmorpg lifespans. Note also, in the section you underlined of mine above, that I was referring to the people who intentionally try to blacklist SWG as being more selfish (and implied insensitive and rude) than the people like Obraik that still enjoy the game and want to keep it around. Seriously, the whole anti-SOE and SWG mantra has become tired.
Since I have played EVE since 2004, I can say that it is the exception to the norm. Sadly their population base continues to grow partially due to alt accounts, very much like DAOC did just prior to its downturn in population. Plus, EVE has almost no competition in it's genre, just like SWG had it's own niche during pre-CU, but NGE removed that niche to a significant degree. You are right though, EVE devs listen to their subscribers, much more than nearly every other mmo in existence. I love EVE, but it has its flaws too, and since it was released at nearly the same time as SWG, it would be fair to compare, not "silly."
I guess I don't put so much "ethical value" on a game.
Well that's fine, but ask yourself if SoE thinks of it as "just a game".
When SoE introduced the NGE they reminded all of us that this is a business. The more people let themselves think this is just a game gives SoE more and more power to alter the products we buy.
I wholeheartedly recommend playing the trial. I feel that the game experience speaks for itself, and makes a greater argument against the NGE than can be made otherwise. Try it for yourself. Click the link in my sig. Within an hour of landing in Mos Eisley and starting the Legacy you will experience every flaw that the game has, stuff that is unacceptable in a BETA, much less in a 5 year old game.
Ain't that the truth. I still can not get over the default controls and settings. Just what I wanted to do, play several hours with the settings just to get basic flight of my ship sorted. How is it that they fucked up Freelancer's flight and controls?
Or change the settings for my avatar so the controls work in an acceptable manner accustome to most mmo's. I am still baffled by this altogether. Click to move mmo's have better default settings and key maps than SWG does. I might have actually subbed for a little while had the settings and controls not been so horrible.
I really bet they loose a lot of potential customers playing the trial to the UI and controls alone. Yes I read the re-maping guide on this site. Like I said,"Just what I wanted to do, play several hours with settings just to get basic flight of my ship sorted".
While jumping is not really game breaking I guess. I also find it incredible that they have not sorted that out either. That a basic function of the game. How can you have character actions which work in such a manner.
I am sure SWG still has some decent aspects to it. I never gave it a shot after several days of having to reset my key maps and UI because some funky bug defaulted everything back to how it was
Also, the population argument has become pretty old now. SWG is old, just look at games that came out about the same time that were similarly popular, DOAC for example is only slightly older and suffering from similar problems even after essentially combining down to 4 servers. Like any game that is mature, if you don't know where to look for players, you won't find many players. Last piece of advice: if you don't like SWG and NGE, don't go back and try it just to write a negative review. Calling current players selfish for wanting to play SWG is nothing compared to intentionally attempting to blacklist their game for your own petty age old grudge against SOE.
My opinion on the last bit of advice is "stuff it". It's not the game that's being targeted nearly as much as the Sony Online Entertainment who committed wire fraud agasint their existing fan/sub base. SWG shoudln't get blacklisted (actually, it should) but ALL games going through SOE should be marked off as well.
Fact = SWG is still a VERY lacking experiance 28months after the "nge" was pushed out. The dynamics and diversity haven't fully returned and the combat system is more flawed now then it had been in any presvious state. Then there's the matter with completly poor GUI which needs extensive modification to make the game semi playable.
Comparing age/maturity of an online game to SWG's population is silly. Care to take a look at EVE Online? Their population continues to increase 'cs the developer includes the subscriber base into the business model. What a novel concept...
FACT = Your fact is an opinion. I could give you my opinion on the combat system and UI too, but you wouldn't care any more than I care for yours. I still say you "SOE haters" still hold a petty grudge, not to mention it has become pretty old in terms of mmorpg lifespans. Note also, in the section you underlined of mine above, that I was referring to the people who intentionally try to blacklist SWG as being more selfish (and implied insensitive and rude) than the people like Obraik that still enjoy the game and want to keep it around. Seriously, the whole anti-SOE and SWG mantra has become tired.
Since I have played EVE since 2004, I can say that it is the exception to the norm. Sadly their population base continues to grow partially due to alt accounts, very much like DAOC did just prior to its downturn in population. Plus, EVE has almost no competition in it's genre, just like SWG had it's own niche during pre-CU, but NGE removed that niche to a significant degree. You are right though, EVE devs listen to their subscribers, much more than nearly every other mmo in existence. I love EVE, but it has its flaws too, and since it was released at nearly the same time as SWG, it would be fair to compare, not "silly."
When does one's opinion become fact? All things granted, an opinion-to-fact can be nebulous when empirical data is intentionaly withheld regarding subscription numbers. This transparency is one thing that works for CCP and their game EVE Online.
In relation to SWG, we know that a tremendous majority of the population had quit due to SOE's defrauding of it's customer base; can we say "wire fraud"?. Skipping through lots of acusations and commitments we also know a LOT of players have attempted to explore the new design that persists today. There was an increase in populations of SWG over a 2-3 month period that appeared to center around the addition of what they called "BeastMaster"; the acronym of BM reminds me of Bowel Movement.
I know people who play SWG. Even I occasionaly login to play around and check out the improvements for a few days to a week every so often; admittingly not logged in about 6-7 months, since BM was added?
One of the common counter argument to low server populations is "You need to know where to look". I think this is valid and being that most "vets" will explore the areas they are familar with will compounds upon this. All those areas which used to faciliate hours of strategic game play have become null & void due to the drastic changes made while there's been a virtual lack of improving upon the "environment" to return the content which was made moot.
Currently there are a few key areas to find players. You have MosEisley and Restuss. Some recent additions have actually improved this (theme park overhaul, "Heroic instances", bases?) but it still creates a problem.
Judging populations through a player perspective does not work. While it can give you a good baseline the accuracy will be broad.
If we use CCP's EVE as an example of populations, concurent users and overall health of the player base we can forumlate a hypothesis. EVE has 220k subscribers and something of another 20k trial accounts as officialy reported by CCP. Sundays appear to be the peak day that people are logged into EVE with "concurrent users" floating around 38k. This shows that roughly 15.8% of a subscription base will be logged in during peak usage - EVE has proven this to be consistently between 11%-14%. During evenings on the weekdays (pacific time zone) I show 18k-22k accounts logged in which is where the regional differences take over since there's a tremendously large portion of EVE players who aren't in the western hemisphere; 7.5%-9%. (these numbers are not fictitous and are in direct relation to CCP's open reporting)
Logging into the most populated server, Bria, it isn't terribaly difficult to find roughly 100-150 players during a weekend. Keep in mind that only about 3 servers have visible populations and the others are virutal ghost towns. If there were 10 times this it would mean there's 1k-1.5k people logged into Bria (unconfirmed rumor: Bria max concurrent user limit was 3500 pre-cu and alledgedly reduced post NGE down to 1500). Using these figures we can guestimate a best case scenario where the 3 heaviest servers combined show a total number of 4500; someone's already laughing over these high figures. Not only would 1500 users on a server cause queues to login (we used to sit in queues waiting to login during pre-cu) but it would prove SWG was more then healthy, but this is not the case. (SOE hides population numbers ever since they showed SWG began decreasing 3 months after the game launched and no longer reports any of their subscription numbers; would stock holders care?)
My opinion as Fact stands. The game remains a lacking experiance which is why the subscription/population continues to diminish. If the game were a high ranking experiance there would be growth of which SWG does not enjoy. The first experiance a player has to the game is a pseudo-fps system with "snappy" controls that break imersion. Once they graduate beyond the "noob station" they're required to interact more through the GUI; "Specials" become more important, targeting, inventory, controls, etc. One thing that's absoultely undeniable is that the default GUI is one of the worst imaginable layouts for an online game which is why you find stickies and walkthroughs encouraging all new players to change the layout scheme.
You think a new player wants a game like SWG? My opinion proves they don't...
p.s. I rarely put thought into this stuff other then when I post here or talk about game design.
edit: I believe the players who have multiple accounts in EVE is no different any other online game. I don't have more then 1 account and only know of about 5 people who do, and they have 2-3 accounts. I am personally aware of several new players I've brought into EVE over the last 2-3 months whom along with the senior "recruits" also use a single account. Out of a total of around 15-20 users I've introduced EVE to only about 5-6 are still playing.
Bria and Bloodfin are the most populated. I am still boggled as to why they have not done a server merger.
Because they haven't figured out how to do it without pissing off the few remaining customers they have. They have to figure out how to deal with duplicate names, housing placement, cities, resources, etc.
Of course if they were serious about doing it they could figure it out but they are more interested in adding more collections to the game.
Well that's rather short-sighted IMO as this NGE fiasco can be a very dangerous precedent for this MMO industry. Surely you must see that by supporting it in an atempt to make it successful condemns all of us to more of the same in the future.
Your choice isn't as easy as playing a game because you like it. You're intentionally ignoring a crucial moment in the evolution of MMO's because you simply want more people to play with. Essentially you're part of the problem this indusrty and genre is facing - complacency and apathy.
I really don't think the community here has to worry about setting some bad example. The colossal mistakes made by SOE transcended the gaming community it tortured. I doubt people from this project will be welcomed into management positions of any consequence in the future. One zealot shilling for a failing game on an insignificant website is not going to effect the industry in the least.
Comments
My opinion on the last bit of advice is "stuff it". It's not the game that's being targeted nearly as much as the Sony Online Entertainment who committed wire fraud agasint their existing fan/sub base. SWG shoudln't get blacklisted (actually, it should) but ALL games going through SOE should be marked off as well.
Fact = SWG is still a VERY lacking experiance 28months after the "nge" was pushed out. The dynamics and diversity haven't fully returned and the combat system is more flawed now then it had been in any presvious state. Then there's the matter with completly poor GUI which needs extensive modification to make the game semi playable.
Comparing age/maturity of an online game to SWG's population is silly. Care to take a look at EVE Online? Their population continues to increase 'cs the developer includes the subscriber base into the business model. What a novel concept...
I was going to type out a well thought up and negative post against you. But ill suffice with: No thanks, I wont be swept under the rug.. i'll let every new player know that plays that game or is looking to play that game about SoE's lies, what they did to the community... etc etc etc.
No...
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
True enough, but I wish he'd take that enthusiasm and helpfulness to a game and company that's more deserving of it.
Indeed. No offense to the dude at all... but it truly boggles my mind how people can defend this game in its current state after all SoE has done to them and is still doing...
Its like someone coming up to your car and putting a HUGE key mark on it (NGE)... and you saying "its ok... ill live with it" and all the while after they put more small key marks on it (all the buggy little stuff and promises broken afterward)..
I mean for petes sake people theres a couple of professions that are 90% useless.... um... munitions?
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
True enough, but I wish he'd take that enthusiasm and helpfulness to a game and company that's more deserving of it.
Agreed! They don't deserve his loyalty that he has displayed. They should be sending him a paycheck. Unfortunately they love players like him that further their cause without having to do any work , or having to pay for it.
Obraik means very well and he is informative, his main problem is that he doesn't call it both ways. He 100% ignores the problems and ONLY informs people of the good aspects.
He claims server populations are good, yet the MOST people he can show on a server are 50.
He tells people who want an HONEST evaluation of the game only what SOE would want that prospective customer to know.
In all honesty, SWG is one of the buggiest MMO's around. It is a mutated version of a single-player FPS with the remnants of a sandbox. It has a tiny development team and will never see another expansion, perhaps not even further chapters after the next one, who knows. If you have played in the past 2 years, especially in the past 6 months (which I have) it is OBVIOUS that the game has the smallest population it EVER has.
There is no problem being enthusiastic about the game you enjoy playing, but at least demonstrate the ability to honestly acknowledge the problems/issues, which to everyone else are glaring.
Tecmo Bowl.
paved paradise and put up a parking lot...with no cars in it.
(PC Specs)
AMD Phenom II 965 3.4 Quad
8GB G-skill Ripjaw 1600mhz
Nvidia Geforce GTX 470 1280mb
Windows 7 64 bit
As I've mentioned in the past, the issues I have aren't always relavent to these forums as many won't be able to relate to them (as they don't play the game and probably don't know what I'm talking about). I post these on the official forums where my issues are more likely to get more support from other players and more likely to be viewed by the Devs.
Well that's part of the problem. You're actively recruiting people into a game that has problems, and you're not discussing those probelms here where those recruits may see them before you encourage them to pay for a subscription.
I'm not going to write a mini-review of the game in every post I make. If a problem I have is relavent to the discussion I'll mention it. Bringing up that I want reward armour craftable because it's useless in its current form isn't going to be relavent in alot of discussions, for example.Your example isn't a problem - it's by design.
Ruberbanding is a probelm that affects a great number of people but I don't see you offering that info. Nor does misfiring specials. Do you inform new gamers of these issues?
As I said before when you offer new people links to helpful tips how about offering them a link to problems as well so they can decide if they even want to start a game that has those issues. I think that's only fair.
But again that doesn't even cover the ethical issues of supporting the NGE. I'm sure you will tell people that you don't have a probelm with it, but that still doesn't make it accpetable IMO. It's still supporting a corporation and a game that will intentionally dump it's paying subscribers for more money.
So, I suppose that is the fundamental difference between you and I. As a consumer I cannot roll over and accept what's happened for my own consumer protection and choose to speak out against it. Essentially I see you as part of the problem because of your acceptance of it and encouraging others to do the same.
As I said, everyones idea of a problem is going to differ from person to person. I don't get rubberbanding so that's not an issue to me. Specials not firing isn't common in my case, maybe a once a week thing if that.
Ethical issues? You're right, I don't have a problem with it because I don't feel as deeply affected by the changes as others here. If I enjoy a game, I'm not going to stop playing it because someone thinks the company is unethical. If I let my choices be decided by others opinions on what's ethical or not there's ALOT of things in this world that I would probably need to go without.
Your choice isn't as easy as playing a game because you like it. You're intentionally ignoring a crucial moment in the evolution of MMO's because you simply want more people to play with.
Essentially you're part of the problem this indusrty and genre is facing - complacency and apathy.
Your choice isn't as easy as playing a game because you like it. You're intentionally ignoring a crucial moment in the evolution of MMO's because you simply want more people to play with.
Essentially you're part of the problem this indusrty and genre is facing - complacency and apathy.
Firstly, I don't "recruit" people to play with - I very rarely see the people that play the game because they saw my posts here. I recommend the game to people because it might be the kind of game they find fun.I guess I don't put so much "ethical value" on a game. Infact, computers in general really. If I did, I probably wouldn't be using Windows, Office or other Microsoft related products that people out there like to state are the spawn of the devil.
I wholeheartedly recommend playing the trial.
I feel that the game experience speaks for itself, and makes a greater argument against the NGE than can be made otherwise.
Try it for yourself. Click the link in my sig. Within an hour of landing in Mos Eisley and starting the Legacy you will experience every flaw that the game has, stuff that is unacceptable in a BETA, much less in a 5 year old game.
Bria and Bloodfin are the most populated. I am still boggled as to why they have not done a server merger.
server merge will lead to bugs i think
Server merge is near impossible, and certainly well beyond the abilities/resources of the current Dev team.
As I've mentioned in the past, the issues I have aren't always relavent to these forums as many won't be able to relate to them (as they don't play the game and probably don't know what I'm talking about). I post these on the official forums where my issues are more likely to get more support from other players and more likely to be viewed by the Devs.
Well that's part of the problem. You're actively recruiting people into a game that has problems, and you're not discussing those probelms here where those recruits may see them before you encourage them to pay for a subscription.
I'm not going to write a mini-review of the game in every post I make. If a problem I have is relavent to the discussion I'll mention it. Bringing up that I want reward armour craftable because it's useless in its current form isn't going to be relavent in alot of discussions, for example.Your example isn't a problem - it's by design.
Ruberbanding is a probelm that affects a great number of people but I don't see you offering that info. Nor does misfiring specials. Do you inform new gamers of these issues?
As I said before when you offer new people links to helpful tips how about offering them a link to problems as well so they can decide if they even want to start a game that has those issues. I think that's only fair.
But again that doesn't even cover the ethical issues of supporting the NGE. I'm sure you will tell people that you don't have a probelm with it, but that still doesn't make it accpetable IMO. It's still supporting a corporation and a game that will intentionally dump it's paying subscribers for more money.
So, I suppose that is the fundamental difference between you and I. As a consumer I cannot roll over and accept what's happened for my own consumer protection and choose to speak out against it. Essentially I see you as part of the problem because of your acceptance of it and encouraging others to do the same.
As I said, everyones idea of a problem is going to differ from person to person. I don't get rubberbanding so that's not an issue to me. Specials not firing isn't common in my case, maybe a once a week thing if that.
Ethical issues? You're right, I don't have a problem with it because I don't feel as deeply affected by the changes as others here. If I enjoy a game, I'm not going to stop playing it because someone thinks the company is unethical. If I let my choices be decided by others opinions on what's ethical or not there's ALOT of things in this world that I would probably need to go without.
So you don't think what SoE did with SWG via the NGE, something that none of us asked for, is unethical? Them not careing for our outcry afterwards, unethical?
Sure I agree that people make mistakes, but something that is done on purpose for nothing but their gain and with no consideration to us, NOT EVEN ASKING US or LISTENING TO THEIR OWN TESTERS, is not just a "simple" mistake.
Sure that the agreement says it may change a bit.... but how much is too much?
Think about it.
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
My opinion on the last bit of advice is "stuff it". It's not the game that's being targeted nearly as much as the Sony Online Entertainment who committed wire fraud agasint their existing fan/sub base. SWG shoudln't get blacklisted (actually, it should) but ALL games going through SOE should be marked off as well.
Fact = SWG is still a VERY lacking experiance 28months after the "nge" was pushed out. The dynamics and diversity haven't fully returned and the combat system is more flawed now then it had been in any presvious state. Then there's the matter with completly poor GUI which needs extensive modification to make the game semi playable.
Comparing age/maturity of an online game to SWG's population is silly. Care to take a look at EVE Online? Their population continues to increase 'cs the developer includes the subscriber base into the business model. What a novel concept...
FACT = Your fact is an opinion. I could give you my opinion on the combat system and UI too, but you wouldn't care any more than I care for yours. I still say you "SOE haters" still hold a petty grudge, not to mention it has become pretty old in terms of mmorpg lifespans. Note also, in the section you underlined of mine above, that I was referring to the people who intentionally try to blacklist SWG as being more selfish (and implied insensitive and rude) than the people like Obraik that still enjoy the game and want to keep it around. Seriously, the whole anti-SOE and SWG mantra has become tired.Since I have played EVE since 2004, I can say that it is the exception to the norm. Sadly their population base continues to grow partially due to alt accounts, very much like DAOC did just prior to its downturn in population. Plus, EVE has almost no competition in it's genre, just like SWG had it's own niche during pre-CU, but NGE removed that niche to a significant degree. You are right though, EVE devs listen to their subscribers, much more than nearly every other mmo in existence. I love EVE, but it has its flaws too, and since it was released at nearly the same time as SWG, it would be fair to compare, not "silly."
When SoE introduced the NGE they reminded all of us that this is a business. The more people let themselves think this is just a game gives SoE more and more power to alter the products we buy.
That's complacency.
Ain't that the truth. I still can not get over the default controls and settings. Just what I wanted to do, play several hours with the settings just to get basic flight of my ship sorted. How is it that they fucked up Freelancer's flight and controls?
Or change the settings for my avatar so the controls work in an acceptable manner accustome to most mmo's. I am still baffled by this altogether. Click to move mmo's have better default settings and key maps than SWG does. I might have actually subbed for a little while had the settings and controls not been so horrible.
I really bet they loose a lot of potential customers playing the trial to the UI and controls alone. Yes I read the re-maping guide on this site. Like I said,"Just what I wanted to do, play several hours with settings just to get basic flight of my ship sorted".
While jumping is not really game breaking I guess. I also find it incredible that they have not sorted that out either. That a basic function of the game. How can you have character actions which work in such a manner.
I am sure SWG still has some decent aspects to it. I never gave it a shot after several days of having to reset my key maps and UI because some funky bug defaulted everything back to how it was
My opinion on the last bit of advice is "stuff it". It's not the game that's being targeted nearly as much as the Sony Online Entertainment who committed wire fraud agasint their existing fan/sub base. SWG shoudln't get blacklisted (actually, it should) but ALL games going through SOE should be marked off as well.
Fact = SWG is still a VERY lacking experiance 28months after the "nge" was pushed out. The dynamics and diversity haven't fully returned and the combat system is more flawed now then it had been in any presvious state. Then there's the matter with completly poor GUI which needs extensive modification to make the game semi playable.
Comparing age/maturity of an online game to SWG's population is silly. Care to take a look at EVE Online? Their population continues to increase 'cs the developer includes the subscriber base into the business model. What a novel concept...
FACT = Your fact is an opinion. I could give you my opinion on the combat system and UI too, but you wouldn't care any more than I care for yours. I still say you "SOE haters" still hold a petty grudge, not to mention it has become pretty old in terms of mmorpg lifespans. Note also, in the section you underlined of mine above, that I was referring to the people who intentionally try to blacklist SWG as being more selfish (and implied insensitive and rude) than the people like Obraik that still enjoy the game and want to keep it around. Seriously, the whole anti-SOE and SWG mantra has become tired.Since I have played EVE since 2004, I can say that it is the exception to the norm. Sadly their population base continues to grow partially due to alt accounts, very much like DAOC did just prior to its downturn in population. Plus, EVE has almost no competition in it's genre, just like SWG had it's own niche during pre-CU, but NGE removed that niche to a significant degree. You are right though, EVE devs listen to their subscribers, much more than nearly every other mmo in existence. I love EVE, but it has its flaws too, and since it was released at nearly the same time as SWG, it would be fair to compare, not "silly."
When does one's opinion become fact? All things granted, an opinion-to-fact can be nebulous when empirical data is intentionaly withheld regarding subscription numbers. This transparency is one thing that works for CCP and their game EVE Online.
In relation to SWG, we know that a tremendous majority of the population had quit due to SOE's defrauding of it's customer base; can we say "wire fraud"?. Skipping through lots of acusations and commitments we also know a LOT of players have attempted to explore the new design that persists today. There was an increase in populations of SWG over a 2-3 month period that appeared to center around the addition of what they called "BeastMaster"; the acronym of BM reminds me of Bowel Movement.
I know people who play SWG. Even I occasionaly login to play around and check out the improvements for a few days to a week every so often; admittingly not logged in about 6-7 months, since BM was added?
One of the common counter argument to low server populations is "You need to know where to look". I think this is valid and being that most "vets" will explore the areas they are familar with will compounds upon this. All those areas which used to faciliate hours of strategic game play have become null & void due to the drastic changes made while there's been a virtual lack of improving upon the "environment" to return the content which was made moot.
Currently there are a few key areas to find players. You have MosEisley and Restuss. Some recent additions have actually improved this (theme park overhaul, "Heroic instances", bases?) but it still creates a problem.
Judging populations through a player perspective does not work. While it can give you a good baseline the accuracy will be broad.
If we use CCP's EVE as an example of populations, concurent users and overall health of the player base we can forumlate a hypothesis. EVE has 220k subscribers and something of another 20k trial accounts as officialy reported by CCP. Sundays appear to be the peak day that people are logged into EVE with "concurrent users" floating around 38k. This shows that roughly 15.8% of a subscription base will be logged in during peak usage - EVE has proven this to be consistently between 11%-14%. During evenings on the weekdays (pacific time zone) I show 18k-22k accounts logged in which is where the regional differences take over since there's a tremendously large portion of EVE players who aren't in the western hemisphere; 7.5%-9%. (these numbers are not fictitous and are in direct relation to CCP's open reporting)
Logging into the most populated server, Bria, it isn't terribaly difficult to find roughly 100-150 players during a weekend. Keep in mind that only about 3 servers have visible populations and the others are virutal ghost towns. If there were 10 times this it would mean there's 1k-1.5k people logged into Bria (unconfirmed rumor: Bria max concurrent user limit was 3500 pre-cu and alledgedly reduced post NGE down to 1500). Using these figures we can guestimate a best case scenario where the 3 heaviest servers combined show a total number of 4500; someone's already laughing over these high figures. Not only would 1500 users on a server cause queues to login (we used to sit in queues waiting to login during pre-cu) but it would prove SWG was more then healthy, but this is not the case. (SOE hides population numbers ever since they showed SWG began decreasing 3 months after the game launched and no longer reports any of their subscription numbers; would stock holders care?)
My opinion as Fact stands. The game remains a lacking experiance which is why the subscription/population continues to diminish. If the game were a high ranking experiance there would be growth of which SWG does not enjoy. The first experiance a player has to the game is a pseudo-fps system with "snappy" controls that break imersion. Once they graduate beyond the "noob station" they're required to interact more through the GUI; "Specials" become more important, targeting, inventory, controls, etc. One thing that's absoultely undeniable is that the default GUI is one of the worst imaginable layouts for an online game which is why you find stickies and walkthroughs encouraging all new players to change the layout scheme.
You think a new player wants a game like SWG? My opinion proves they don't...
p.s. I rarely put thought into this stuff other then when I post here or talk about game design.
edit: I believe the players who have multiple accounts in EVE is no different any other online game. I don't have more then 1 account and only know of about 5 people who do, and they have 2-3 accounts. I am personally aware of several new players I've brought into EVE over the last 2-3 months whom along with the senior "recruits" also use a single account. Out of a total of around 15-20 users I've introduced EVE to only about 5-6 are still playing.
eh hem
Of course if they were serious about doing it they could figure it out but they are more interested in adding more collections to the game.
I really don't think the community here has to worry about setting some bad example. The colossal mistakes made by SOE transcended the gaming community it tortured. I doubt people from this project will be welcomed into management positions of any consequence in the future. One zealot shilling for a failing game on an insignificant website is not going to effect the industry in the least.
From what I understand there is only 2, maybe 3 servers worth playing these days. I wouldn't waste my time with the other ones.