The problem with this view OP is that you forget that these games were originally made for an Asian gaming audience. They have a different playing style to us so its little surprise such games are not universally liked by Western gamers. Netherless it is not a Mistake!!! this happens its just the way it is Asians like a different game style that's all.
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
They are able to achieve their sales and marketing objectives turning out what those types of games for an ASIAN MARKET.Their audience is NOT North America and Europe.Others have brought them to our marketplace and tried to make a profitable business with the import.
These "features / Problems" do need a change in Asian MMOs. Most of these games have a low fanbase, or die out quickly when the next new game comes out. Once you've played one Asian MMO you have played them all. Monsters are dumb as all hell. They run up and melee or shoot you. That is all. In US MMOs monsters will cast debuffs, call friends, run away, snare you then shoot you form range. Monsters ocme in teams of different classes at the player. Someone on the first page mentioned that the Asian market likes to fight strong monsters. This is a lie. They fight fight weak and dumb mosnters that they kill in masses to farm. Asian MMO games are jsut made for farming with very little added to bring about immersion. DAOC is an old ass game, but the monsters in their last 2 or 3 expansions had tons of variety in their attacks. Boss were a real challenge. They didn't cast only 2 spells they had an arsonel of many spells to cast on the raid. Same thing goes for WoW.
Asian MMOs have all their focus on pretty characters and slutty females of various races. They make a pretty building or 2 and osme nice trees they spam all over the place and that is it. Terrain is left bland. Building are left without interior detail.
Speaking on lazy. These games use the same models throughout the game. The only difference is the color of the model. The texture is not really changed, and no additions are added to the model to make things interesting. Monster animations are subpar. There isn't a real variety in armor that players can wear. Many times everyone will wear the same thing at the higher levels.
In closing just ask yourself this. What Asian MMOs have lasted the test of time as a favorite by everyone? All I got is Lineage 2 and Final Fantasy 11. Now think of all the American adn European MMO games that lasted through the years as classics.
when you thought no one plays there are tons, Ragnarok can have enough US players playing on private or retail servers enough to take out 1/4 of the US wow population.
These "features / Problems" do need a change in Asian MMOs. Most of these games have a low fanbase, or die out quickly when the next new game comes out. Once you've played one Asian MMO you have played them all. Monsters are dumb as all hell. They run up and melee or shoot you. That is all. In US MMOs monsters will cast debuffs, call friends, run away, snare you then shoot you form range. Monsters ocme in teams of different classes at the player. Someone on the first page mentioned that the Asian market likes to fight strong monsters. This is a lie. They fight fight weak and dumb mosnters that they kill in masses to farm. Asian MMO games are jsut made for farming with very little added to bring about immersion. DAOC is an old ass game, but the monsters in their last 2 or 3 expansions had tons of variety in their attacks. Boss were a real challenge. They didn't cast only 2 spells they had an arsonel of many spells to cast on the raid. Same thing goes for WoW.
Asian MMOs have all their focus on pretty characters and slutty females of various races. They make a pretty building or 2 and osme nice trees they spam all over the place and that is it. Terrain is left bland. Building are left without interior detail.
Speaking on lazy. These games use the same models throughout the game. The only difference is the color of the model. The texture is not really changed, and no additions are added to the model to make things interesting. Monster animations are subpar. There isn't a real variety in armor that players can wear. Many times everyone will wear the same thing at the higher levels.
In closing just ask yourself this. What Asian MMOs have lasted the test of time as a favorite by everyone? All I got is Lineage 2 and Final Fantasy 11. Now think of all the American adn European MMO games that lasted through the years as classics.
Please do take the take the time to get off your high horse. You obviously know nothing about games made over in the East. Pretty much everything you said is just flat out incorrect. Yet another person that's probably played what? Two maybe Three games made over in the east, and believes he has some sort of greater insight in their style of gaming.
If you want to look for a faulty MMO market you need to look no further then the Western Market for MMO's. Lets take a moment to break down the western MMO market. I get a choice between Fantasy (EQ1, DAOC, etc etc) and Sci-Fi (Eve-Online, Jump Gate, etc etc) whether they be straight RPGs, or some sort of RPG/FPS hybrid (i.e Tabula Rasa). You do have your more unique games like Second Life, the Sim's Online, and A Tale in the Desert just to name a few. Generally though, most of which break down into the same basically formula that's been used since EQ1. People like to make interesting post claiming that their game is different, but do you really believe EQ1 and DAOC are really that different? At it's core in both you do the ABC's of MMORPG life. A) You exp, you procure loot, C) you craft. That's pretty much it, you know what made DAOC different from EQ1? They added a D) Realm vs Realm. Adding a new mechanic doesn't necessarily make you "better" nor "different". Anyway I've strayed off topic a bit.
Now lets take a look at the Eastern Market. Fantasy yes, Sci Fi yes, occassional unique game yes. Oh, but lets not forget they also manage to introduce genre's like Sports that cover everything from racing to volleyball. Where as the western market is still stuck on Fantasy, the eastern market actually has moved on. Even in fantasy settings at the very least the eastern market is willing to try something different (i.e Granado Espada, Prius Online, Evan Online).
So please before you try to make comments about the Eastern market, how about you actually invest some actual play time in their games, so that you can actually make some worthy comments.
In War - Victory. In Peace - Vigilance. In Death - Sacrifice.
I agree that the western MMO's are totally screwed up and heavy on the fanatasy genre, but there is no shortage of diverse genres. Even many of the fantasy genre games have a great deal of diversity between them. Your example of EQ and DAOC being the exception not the rule.
Actually, I could most likely tell the difference. unless your talking about F2P... which don't count because your not paying for anything. I prefer anime over WoW, WAR, and most American's MMO because I don't enjoy the rainbow armor, playing as thundering ogre size characters, or uber cartoony toons.
Haha, not float, they meander around just like WoW and most other MMOs and like WoW and others their are some who aggro when you hit their race or type some that don't, some that just aggro if you get to close and etc... The thing I like is that you can usually take on many mobs of your same level at once, if properly geared and level effiecently that way where as with most American MMOs the focus is on one mob unless your with a group.
I hate to tell you... but Tabula Rasa is owned by NCSoft... a Korean company. So I guess your example is actually saying Korean games are like that.
**Added**
I agree with the post above me, WASD FTW... been playing FPS since W3D(although most people used arrow keys back then)
Tried: Vanguard, UO, Rappelz, Archlord, RF Online, SWG, WAR, Ryzom, Anarchy Online, AC, APB, STO, Perfect World, Black Prophecy...
Played: EQ,EQII, Lineage, Lineage 2, GW, EVE Online, AoC, DoAC, iRO, AC2, WoW, SWTOR, Runes of Magic, Allods, Rift.. Currently Playing: Tera
Honestly, there's really 1 thing that would make 99% of the MMO's from the asian market much more enjoyable for me: - Get rid of point/click movement I've found a few MMOs from the asian market quite enjoyable, but no way i'd stick with any of them using the clunky point/click movement system. That is all.
Alot of people seem to dislike or outright hate PnC systems. For me, PnC or WASD it's all the same to me. Though when I'm 40, and probably can't use my wrist so well from so much CS:S/FPS playing. I'll probably hate them both equally.
In War - Victory. In Peace - Vigilance. In Death - Sacrifice.
I guess it kinda depends on the class you play... healers and casters don't move as much as say a rogue, warrior, hunter or their equivalents. It's harder to stalk someone or have alot of control over melee using point and click.
Tried: Vanguard, UO, Rappelz, Archlord, RF Online, SWG, WAR, Ryzom, Anarchy Online, AC, APB, STO, Perfect World, Black Prophecy...
Played: EQ,EQII, Lineage, Lineage 2, GW, EVE Online, AoC, DoAC, iRO, AC2, WoW, SWTOR, Runes of Magic, Allods, Rift.. Currently Playing: Tera
Let me explain it to you. Psychologists have discovered that people will get addicted to repeatable action whenever there are some variations and rewards are metered out in a semi-random fashion. Slot machine is a very good example of it. This phenomenon is tied to the mechanism of how your brain releases endorphins. MMORPG is inherent designed around this psychology. The developers essentially balancing two factors: the rewards (xp/loot/...), variations (quest, different type of monsters to grind). I suppose they found that quest-grinding is optimal in this scenario. Not too much variations because content costs money. The reward/variation ratio is enough to hook people.
Rant:
This pisses me off to no end. Coincidentally, I was talking to my friend about Darkfall today, and this very MMO-slot machine connection came up.
Whenever we go to Las Vegas, everybody has to listen to me gripe about the incredible stupidity of slot machines (last time I was there, I was under 21, so I had nothing better to do but complain). How the hell is a freaking slot machine fun? Are you seriously having fun putting a coin in a hole and pulling a stick? Oh wait, it's not even a stick anymore. It's a button. Nobody could seriously find this crap entertaining! Are you having fun pushing the button? Are you?
Apparently they are. Slots are the biggest attractions and IIRC the biggest moneymakers for casinos. Poker I can understand. It has a strong social element. Blackjack has a strong mathematical base (just don't let them catch you using it). I have no idea what the hell "Craps" is but I'll give it points for having a funny name. But the popularity of the slots boggles my mind. I seriously cannot comprehend why anyone would sit in a chair pushing a button which takes away their money, when they could be: - playing a game with an actual mental component and is mentally engaging - seeing white tigers (they're so cute) - seeing white tigers maul people (awwww) - seeing Elizabeth Berkeley naked - watching TV in your hotel room
Yes, I know all about the psychological component of repetitive action addiction. But I'll never understand it...
Flash forward to MMOs, and it's the same story. Only this time, it is to my detriment. Publishers would rather sell drugs than games, because it guarantees the best profit margin. The worst part is, there's no convenient scapegoat I can blame the problem on. The companies are out to run a business. People are following their instincts.
The only reason that I don't outright give up games in disgust is the hope that an indie developer will care more about art than profit and make a game for the rest of us not part of the least common denominator.
If I needed a reason to be a misanthrope, this one's as good as any.
Actually, I could most likely tell the difference. unless your talking about F2P... which don't count because your not paying for anything. I prefer anime over WoW, WAR, and most American's MMO because I don't enjoy the rainbow armor, playing as thundering ogre size characters, or uber cartoony toons. Haha, not float, they meander around just like WoW and most other MMOs and like WoW and others their are some who aggro when you hit their race or type some that don't, some that just aggro if you get to close and etc... The thing I like is that you can usually take on many mobs of your same level at once, if properly geared and level effiecently that way where as with most American MMOs the focus is on one mob unless your with a group. I hate to tell you... but Tabula Rasa is owned by NCSoft... a Korean company. So I guess your example is actually saying Korean games are like that.
**Added** I agree with the post above me, WASD FTW... been playing FPS since W3D(although most people used arrow keys back then)
Right, I find that anime style games are full of 'camp-style' rainbow attire, and equally weird characters that look like they were designed while on acid. Just look at Ragnarok Online headgear, for example;
a teapot, a marching band hat that plays religious music which causes increased regeneration, and all sorts of other concoctions that look like they came directly from a 'haute coutoure'(or however you spell that) show. Some people may enjoy this, it is a matter of personal taste, I find it diversity gone 'too far'.
While this sort of 'uniqueness' is abundant in Eastern games, it is hard to tell apart from which game a certain character may have come from. The art styling is very similar in most of the Asian games, which again is not too appealing if you do not like feminine male characters and manga/anime style art design. By this point it is probably obvious that I don't.
There's no point arguing over this, to some Eastern games are great, others do not find them very appealing. Its just like arguing about a particular game, others like it while others don't. Mind you, this post is coming from a 3-year subscriver to Lineage 2.
An other poster mentioned how diverse the MMO genre is in the East. This is something I agree with somewhat. However, many of the 'more diverse' games are truly 'b-movie' quality or just minigames with an online interface. Asian desginers are great with coming up with extremely creative and original ideas, and the producers over there seem to be more than willing to let these ideas pass to the finished product. I find this one of the main perks of Eastern games. However, as I pointed out earlier, in many cases I think this uniqueness or diversity goes a bit too far for its own good.
Just look at the asian game making model and you'll understand why. When you continually slap different paintjobs and names on the same 3 or 4 games, you get the same mistakes from those 3 or 4 games.
Think i myself will make a loan of 10k $, go to Asia hire a few asians and pay them to make me such a cool MMo that will take you 6 months of non stop game play to reach the player cap if you max out you'r efficiency of grind xp/hour... That game is going to be called :
I love the Korean MMORPGs artistic design, I think asian designers by far the best in this business. but beside the visual appeal, Korean and other Asian MMOs are horrible when designing an MMORPG for US & Euro Market. You think by now that companies will learn after, Hero Online, Archlord, Sword of the New World, Silk Road etc... even thou they produce a few great game such as Final Fantasy, but overall the trends are poor against them. The biggest negative trend with Asian MMOs is the poor usage of monsters with spawning, AI, and over burden of them. -Monsters are everywhere, as soon you exit a safe zone [town], you will see hundred of monsters for no reason.. It doesn't really explain why or how monsters are standing next to your front door. The worst insult is that NPC somehow doesn't see them either. The only really solution is for players to pretend that you don't see any monsters. -Too many monsters, beside having monsters everywhere, they have alot of them... when I said alot, I mean alot.. how do you explain alot... -Stupid monsters AI, but i think the biggest insult beside having too many monsters at every locations is that the monster are just plain stupid. They spawn near you for no reason, they don't attack you when you suppose to, they don't aggro, they don't assault you, they don't do anything... -All bad guys {monsters, creatures, and/or whatever} are the same from level 1 to Max Level.. the only diff is the skill. This is a problem all across MMO, but asian MMOs are the worst when it comes to using this feature. Ok, so why should these companies care about my opinion? I think they don't care at all....that is why so many companies came to America and failed...
maybe because those "mistakes" actually work and make them tons of money in Asia?
They are only mistakes to you. Come to Korea and ask them why.. they like the games the way they are.. maybe they will ask you why americans keep making mistakes in their games.
Honestly, there's really 1 thing that would make 99% of the MMO's from the asian market much more enjoyable for me: - Get rid of point/click movement I've found a few MMOs from the asian market quite enjoyable, but no way i'd stick with any of them using the clunky point/click movement system. That is all.
And how are they to play effectively while smoking a cigarette? If they hold it in their mouth they will get smoke in their eyes which hurts so they need to hold it in their hand.
I guess they could all quit smoking or game companies could switch to the double mouse button click to move forward like WoW has.
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
Your attempt to defend Asian MMOs make want to laugh,
"Now lets take a look at the Eastern Market. Fantasy yes, Sci Fi yes, occassional unique game yes. Oh, but lets not forget they also manage to introduce genre's like Sports that cover everything from racing to volleyball. Where as the western market is still stuck on Fantasy, the eastern market actually has moved on. Even in fantasy settings at the very least the eastern market is willing to try something different (i.e Granado Espada, Prius Online, Evan Online)." -Ronin
Sword of the New World, AKA Granado Espada, is the perfect example of a failed Asian MMO for US Market. I am sure this game is fun and sucessful in Asian. But in America, this game is FREE now!!! The biggest reason why it fails in the US, becuase Granado Espada has more monster per square inch than all US/Euro MMOs combined. The overwhelming monster system may work in Asia, but the discussion asked the general public, "why keep making the same mistakes?" Remember Hero Online, Silk Road etc...? Now look at another entry in MMORPG.com "Requiem," Do you think game is going to make it? Take a look at Requiem's beta/forum, I doubt this formula will work also.
By no mean I am saying Sword of the New World failed as the developers' intent. It's not a mistake, if you make a game for your Market that is willing to accept low grade quality game. But, US/Euro consumers want the highest product possible. I think Sword of the New World is a great example of another Asian product that just doesn't do they homework.
Here is my prediction, just similiar to TV, Cars, and Electronic products made in Asia, at first it's not a great design, but soon Asian MMO companies will produce a great quality game. Sadly for US Companies, they either have to step-up or step out of the way.
I am rooting for Asian products as much as American's products... either way, competion is a win win for us paid subscribers.
In Korea,massive grindfests are the favoured game style because to them,grinding a character up to level 300 is like a status symbol.They see it as a sign of being hardworking (which it is really..) and an achivement.
Thats why some asian games that seem like slow torture to us westerners do well over there. So the horrific 350 cap grinder where 4 hours grinding earns you 1/4 of a level is a great challenge to them.
Its only a mistake if the game has very few subscribers and lousy critical reviews, doesn't make all that much money, or underperforms and has to shut down. Asian MMOs aren't aimed for markets outside of theirs. If anyone in the US plays, its just candy. Considering most of those games do quite well over there, theres nothing wrong with them.
Its real simple. If the game isn't your style, its not for you. Its not BAD, esspecially if loads of people are playing!! Its just not for you. If people are playing a MMO in mass numbers its doing something RIGHT. People arne't being fooled into paying a monthly fee. This isn't a movie you see once or a CD you buy once. MMOs are subscribtion based services and you're paying all the time. If you don't like the game, you're not going to play. Its that simple. If you're paying, you like it. DOn't say, "I'm playing for my friends or theres nothing else to play so I'm settling with the only POS MMO out there." There are LOADS of MMOs to play in every shape and size, style, color and theme. If you can't find a single one that interests you, give it up and leave the genre.
I persoanlly find Asian MMO a complete bore mostly because the gameplay mechanics are so simple, repeptitive, relying on EQ-like grinding mechanics and forced grouping with really bad translations. They're bad for me, but they're certainly not bad for Asians;)
I've played both Lineage II and WoW. I really prefer Lineage II over WoW, why, because Lineage II is more straightforward (here are the mobs... kill them to lvl up) while in WoW grind is as many have already said hidden in quests.
I even prefer the PvP in Lineage II, sieges are just uber.
I just hope that noone shows up saying that Lineage II is still more mindless than WoW... cause they are both mindless games but I prefer not to complicate, therefore I like Lineage II more.
Apart from this topic I think the best MMO is EVE online.
If you do want to play an asian grindfest game play Lineage II or RF online (depends on what you like more, fantasy of sci-fi).
Roin, Your attempt to defend Asian MMOs make want to laugh, "Now lets take a look at the Eastern Market. Fantasy yes, Sci Fi yes, occassional unique game yes. Oh, but lets not forget they also manage to introduce genre's like Sports that cover everything from racing to volleyball. Where as the western market is still stuck on Fantasy, the eastern market actually has moved on. Even in fantasy settings at the very least the eastern market is willing to try something different (i.e Granado Espada, Prius Online, Evan Online)." -Ronin Sword of the New World, AKA Granado Espada, is the perfect example of a failed Asian MMO for US Market. I am sure this game is fun and sucessful in Asian. But in America, this game is FREE now!!! The biggest reason why it fails in the US, becuase Granado Espada has more monster per square inch than all US/Euro MMOs combined. The overwhelming monster system may work in Asia, but the discussion asked the general public, "why keep making the same mistakes?" Remember Hero Online, Silk Road etc...? Now look at another entry in MMORPG.com "Requiem," Do you think game is going to make it? Take a look at Requiem's beta/forum, I doubt this formula will work also. By no mean I am saying Sword of the New World failed as the developers' intent. It's not a mistake, if you make a game for your Market that is willing to accept low grade quality game. But, US/Euro consumers want the highest product possible. I think Sword of the New World is a great example of another Asian product that just doesn't do they homework. Here is my prediction, just similiar to TV, Cars, and Electronic products made in Asia, at first it's not a great design, but soon Asian MMO companies will produce a great quality game. Sadly for US Companies, they either have to step-up or step out of the way. I am rooting for Asian products as much as American's products... either way, competion is a win win for us paid subscribers.
So what exactly does your post have to with mine? What I pointed out is simply that. The western market has grown stagnant. It hasn't evolved, it's not revolutionizing anything, it's not changing. Would it also help to point out just about every western game released in the eastern market has also failed. (EQ, SWG, etc etc)
Sword of the New World didn't do well here. On the other hand it's counter part Granado Espada is currently still doing very well in korea, japan, and singipore. Granado Espada uses a Multi character control system, why would mobs be sparse? That statement you made about mobs and Sword of the New World just doesn't make sense at all.
As for Requiem, tough to say. I know people that play it and love it, as well as people that tried it and hate it. You can never really tell how a game will do till it's released. Even after all this time I'm still amazed at the fact that Eve-Online has 200-250,000 subscribers. Played it during it's beta just before they updated it, and it then required you to have a video card that supported Transformation and Lighting. Played it after it went live. Played it a bit a year or two after that to. I find the game utterly boring still to this day.
"It's not a mistake, if you make a game for your Market that is willing to accept low grade quality game" I nearly fell out my chair laughing at this statement. I can just tell it's pretty pointless talking with you at this point. Where as I play both Western and Eastern games, and see merit in both. You seem to have an issue with eastern games that weren't designed for your western audience to begin with. If you have an issue with eastern games. Take it up with the companies that localize them. As it's their decision to bring the games here.
Maybe you can even get some of these lazy Western developers to get off their butts, and do something different. Hell i'd even be happy if they put more effort into their character animations. Because from my perspective right now. When I want variety I look for an eastern mmo, when I want to see what GOOD animations look like I look for an eastern mmo. Lineage 2 is how old now, and the armor and weapon models for that game pretty much spank 90% of the stuff you see alot of the Western MMO's out now.
In War - Victory. In Peace - Vigilance. In Death - Sacrifice.
Roin, the comparisions I make are between the major games that eveyone knows in the Asian and Western markets. No one in my area knows about any asian sports MMO games. Everyone knows Raputz, Lineage2, Sword of the New World, Fury, Guild Wars. ALL OF THESE GAMES LOOK AND PLAY ALMOST THE SAME. The art styles are not even substancially diiferent. All of these games have mindless enemies roaming just outside the city gates who all spam 1 attack with horrible animations. All of the characters progress through the game with the same sets of armor on. The crafted armor is not unique in anyway, and there is really very little customization of items unless you are max level.
Also clunky point and click interfaces are horrible. In order to play in PvP or epic PvE battles you always have to have you camera zoomed out just to be able to click around behind you and stuff. Most of the menu systems in these games are uncustomizable. This is an epic fail when dealing with gmaes that focus on PvP.
Roin, the comparisions I make are between the major games that eveyone knows in the Asian and Western markets. No one in my area knows about any asian sports MMO games. Everyone knows Raputz, Lineage2, Sword of the New World, Fury, Guild Wars. ALL OF THESE GAMES LOOK AND PLAY ALMOST THE SAME. The art styles are not even substancially diiferent. All of these games have mindless enemies roaming just outside the city gates who all spam 1 attack with horrible animations. All of the characters progress through the game with the same sets of armor on. The crafted armor is not unique in anyway, and there is really very little customization of items unless you are max level.
Also clunky point and click interfaces are horrible. In order to play in PvP or epic PvE battles you always have to have you camera zoomed out just to be able to click around behind you and stuff. Most of the menu systems in these games are uncustomizable. This is an epic fail when dealing with gmaes that focus on PvP.
I'm not sure what your point was with mentioning those games. Fury and Guild Wars are not asian mmo's, and out of those games only Lineage 2 and "Raputz" (I'm goin to assume you mean Rappelz), nor do they play each similar again with the exception of Lineage 2 and Rappelz. Sword of the New World allows you to play with 3 characters, and allows you to recruit NPC characters. saying they are the same because there are enemies outside the city gate is much like saying EVE is the same like Everquest simply because both games have enemies.
Comments
The problem with this view OP is that you forget that these games were originally made for an Asian gaming audience. They have a different playing style to us so its little surprise such games are not universally liked by Western gamers. Netherless it is not a Mistake!!! this happens its just the way it is Asians like a different game style that's all.
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
They are able to achieve their sales and marketing objectives turning out what those types of games for an ASIAN MARKET.Their audience is NOT North America and Europe.Others have brought them to our marketplace and tried to make a profitable business with the import.
when you thought no one plays there are tons, Ragnarok can have enough US players playing on private or retail servers enough to take out 1/4 of the US wow population.
none
Please do take the take the time to get off your high horse. You obviously know nothing about games made over in the East. Pretty much everything you said is just flat out incorrect. Yet another person that's probably played what? Two maybe Three games made over in the east, and believes he has some sort of greater insight in their style of gaming.
If you want to look for a faulty MMO market you need to look no further then the Western Market for MMO's. Lets take a moment to break down the western MMO market. I get a choice between Fantasy (EQ1, DAOC, etc etc) and Sci-Fi (Eve-Online, Jump Gate, etc etc) whether they be straight RPGs, or some sort of RPG/FPS hybrid (i.e Tabula Rasa). You do have your more unique games like Second Life, the Sim's Online, and A Tale in the Desert just to name a few. Generally though, most of which break down into the same basically formula that's been used since EQ1. People like to make interesting post claiming that their game is different, but do you really believe EQ1 and DAOC are really that different? At it's core in both you do the ABC's of MMORPG life. A) You exp,
you procure loot, C) you craft. That's pretty much it, you know what made DAOC different from EQ1? They added a D) Realm vs Realm. Adding a new mechanic doesn't necessarily make you "better" nor "different". Anyway I've strayed off topic a bit.
Now lets take a look at the Eastern Market. Fantasy yes, Sci Fi yes, occassional unique game yes. Oh, but lets not forget they also manage to introduce genre's like Sports that cover everything from racing to volleyball. Where as the western market is still stuck on Fantasy, the eastern market actually has moved on. Even in fantasy settings at the very least the eastern market is willing to try something different (i.e Granado Espada, Prius Online, Evan Online).
So please before you try to make comments about the Eastern market, how about you actually invest some actual play time in their games, so that you can actually make some worthy comments.
In War - Victory.
In Peace - Vigilance.
In Death - Sacrifice.
I agree that the western MMO's are totally screwed up and heavy on the fanatasy genre, but there is no shortage of diverse genres. Even many of the fantasy genre games have a great deal of diversity between them. Your example of EQ and DAOC being the exception not the rule.
Honestly, there's really 1 thing that would make 99% of the MMO's from the asian market much more enjoyable for me:
- Get rid of point/click movement
I've found a few MMOs from the asian market quite enjoyable, but no way i'd stick with any of them using the clunky point/click movement system.
That is all.
Actually, I could most likely tell the difference. unless your talking about F2P... which don't count because your not paying for anything. I prefer anime over WoW, WAR, and most American's MMO because I don't enjoy the rainbow armor, playing as thundering ogre size characters, or uber cartoony toons.
Haha, not float, they meander around just like WoW and most other MMOs and like WoW and others their are some who aggro when you hit their race or type some that don't, some that just aggro if you get to close and etc... The thing I like is that you can usually take on many mobs of your same level at once, if properly geared and level effiecently that way where as with most American MMOs the focus is on one mob unless your with a group.
I hate to tell you... but Tabula Rasa is owned by NCSoft... a Korean company. So I guess your example is actually saying Korean games are like that.
**Added**
I agree with the post above me, WASD FTW... been playing FPS since W3D(although most people used arrow keys back then)
Tried: Vanguard, UO, Rappelz, Archlord, RF Online, SWG, WAR, Ryzom, Anarchy Online, AC, APB, STO, Perfect World, Black Prophecy...
Played: EQ,EQII, Lineage, Lineage 2, GW, EVE Online, AoC, DoAC, iRO, AC2, WoW, SWTOR, Runes of Magic, Allods, Rift..
Currently Playing: Tera
Alot of people seem to dislike or outright hate PnC systems. For me, PnC or WASD it's all the same to me. Though when I'm 40, and probably can't use my wrist so well from so much CS:S/FPS playing. I'll probably hate them both equally.
In War - Victory.
In Peace - Vigilance.
In Death - Sacrifice.
I guess it kinda depends on the class you play... healers and casters don't move as much as say a rogue, warrior, hunter or their equivalents. It's harder to stalk someone or have alot of control over melee using point and click.
Tried: Vanguard, UO, Rappelz, Archlord, RF Online, SWG, WAR, Ryzom, Anarchy Online, AC, APB, STO, Perfect World, Black Prophecy...
Played: EQ,EQII, Lineage, Lineage 2, GW, EVE Online, AoC, DoAC, iRO, AC2, WoW, SWTOR, Runes of Magic, Allods, Rift..
Currently Playing: Tera
Rant:
This pisses me off to no end. Coincidentally, I was talking to my friend about Darkfall today, and this very MMO-slot machine connection came up.
Whenever we go to Las Vegas, everybody has to listen to me gripe about the incredible stupidity of slot machines (last time I was there, I was under 21, so I had nothing better to do but complain). How the hell is a freaking slot machine fun? Are you seriously having fun putting a coin in a hole and pulling a stick? Oh wait, it's not even a stick anymore. It's a button. Nobody could seriously find this crap entertaining! Are you having fun pushing the button? Are you?
Apparently they are. Slots are the biggest attractions and IIRC the biggest moneymakers for casinos. Poker I can understand. It has a strong social element. Blackjack has a strong mathematical base (just don't let them catch you using it). I have no idea what the hell "Craps" is but I'll give it points for having a funny name. But the popularity of the slots boggles my mind. I seriously cannot comprehend why anyone would sit in a chair pushing a button which takes away their money, when they could be:
- playing a game with an actual mental component and is mentally engaging
- seeing white tigers (they're so cute)
- seeing white tigers maul people (awwww)
- seeing Elizabeth Berkeley naked
- watching TV in your hotel room
Yes, I know all about the psychological component of repetitive action addiction. But I'll never understand it...
Flash forward to MMOs, and it's the same story. Only this time, it is to my detriment. Publishers would rather sell drugs than games, because it guarantees the best profit margin. The worst part is, there's no convenient scapegoat I can blame the problem on. The companies are out to run a business. People are following their instincts.
The only reason that I don't outright give up games in disgust is the hope that an indie developer will care more about art than profit and make a game for the rest of us not part of the least common denominator.
If I needed a reason to be a misanthrope, this one's as good as any.
a teapot, a marching band hat that plays religious music which causes increased regeneration, and all sorts of other concoctions that look like they came directly from a 'haute coutoure'(or however you spell that) show. Some people may enjoy this, it is a matter of personal taste, I find it diversity gone 'too far'.
While this sort of 'uniqueness' is abundant in Eastern games, it is hard to tell apart from which game a certain character may have come from. The art styling is very similar in most of the Asian games, which again is not too appealing if you do not like feminine male characters and manga/anime style art design. By this point it is probably obvious that I don't.
There's no point arguing over this, to some Eastern games are great, others do not find them very appealing. Its just like arguing about a particular game, others like it while others don't. Mind you, this post is coming from a 3-year subscriver to Lineage 2.
An other poster mentioned how diverse the MMO genre is in the East. This is something I agree with somewhat. However, many of the 'more diverse' games are truly 'b-movie' quality or just minigames with an online interface. Asian desginers are great with coming up with extremely creative and original ideas, and the producers over there seem to be more than willing to let these ideas pass to the finished product. I find this one of the main perks of Eastern games. However, as I pointed out earlier, in many cases I think this uniqueness or diversity goes a bit too far for its own good.
Korean MMO:s are made to appeal to Koreans.
The Korean game developers doesn't make games to appeal to non-Koreans.
What the OP described is what Koreans wants and likes in a game.
Just look at the asian game making model and you'll understand why. When you continually slap different paintjobs and names on the same 3 or 4 games, you get the same mistakes from those 3 or 4 games.
Think i myself will make a loan of 10k $, go to Asia hire a few asians and pay them to make me such a cool MMo that will take you 6 months of non stop game play to reach the player cap if you max out you'r efficiency of grind xp/hour... That game is going to be called :
"El Grind a la Supreme"
Cool name huh?
maybe because those "mistakes" actually work and make them tons of money in Asia?
Apparently they like working in sweat shops, and as a result they like their play time to reflect a sweatshop type environment.
Its the only explanation I can come up with.
D.
They are only mistakes to you. Come to Korea and ask them why.. they like the games the way they are.. maybe they will ask you why americans keep making mistakes in their games.
I guess they could all quit smoking or game companies could switch to the double mouse button click to move forward like WoW has.
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
Roin,
Your attempt to defend Asian MMOs make want to laugh,
"Now lets take a look at the Eastern Market. Fantasy yes, Sci Fi yes, occassional unique game yes. Oh, but lets not forget they also manage to introduce genre's like Sports that cover everything from racing to volleyball. Where as the western market is still stuck on Fantasy, the eastern market actually has moved on. Even in fantasy settings at the very least the eastern market is willing to try something different (i.e Granado Espada, Prius Online, Evan Online)." -Ronin
Sword of the New World, AKA Granado Espada, is the perfect example of a failed Asian MMO for US Market. I am sure this game is fun and sucessful in Asian. But in America, this game is FREE now!!! The biggest reason why it fails in the US, becuase Granado Espada has more monster per square inch than all US/Euro MMOs combined. The overwhelming monster system may work in Asia, but the discussion asked the general public, "why keep making the same mistakes?" Remember Hero Online, Silk Road etc...? Now look at another entry in MMORPG.com "Requiem," Do you think game is going to make it? Take a look at Requiem's beta/forum, I doubt this formula will work also.
By no mean I am saying Sword of the New World failed as the developers' intent. It's not a mistake, if you make a game for your Market that is willing to accept low grade quality game. But, US/Euro consumers want the highest product possible. I think Sword of the New World is a great example of another Asian product that just doesn't do they homework.
Here is my prediction, just similiar to TV, Cars, and Electronic products made in Asia, at first it's not a great design, but soon Asian MMO companies will produce a great quality game. Sadly for US Companies, they either have to step-up or step out of the way.
I am rooting for Asian products as much as American's products... either way, competion is a win win for us paid subscribers.
In Korea,massive grindfests are the favoured game style because to them,grinding a character up to level 300 is like a status symbol.They see it as a sign of being hardworking (which it is really..) and an achivement.
Thats why some asian games that seem like slow torture to us westerners do well over there. So the horrific 350 cap grinder where 4 hours grinding earns you 1/4 of a level is a great challenge to them.
Its only a mistake if the game has very few subscribers and lousy critical reviews, doesn't make all that much money, or underperforms and has to shut down. Asian MMOs aren't aimed for markets outside of theirs. If anyone in the US plays, its just candy. Considering most of those games do quite well over there, theres nothing wrong with them.
Its real simple. If the game isn't your style, its not for you. Its not BAD, esspecially if loads of people are playing!! Its just not for you. If people are playing a MMO in mass numbers its doing something RIGHT. People arne't being fooled into paying a monthly fee. This isn't a movie you see once or a CD you buy once. MMOs are subscribtion based services and you're paying all the time. If you don't like the game, you're not going to play. Its that simple. If you're paying, you like it. DOn't say, "I'm playing for my friends or theres nothing else to play so I'm settling with the only POS MMO out there." There are LOADS of MMOs to play in every shape and size, style, color and theme. If you can't find a single one that interests you, give it up and leave the genre.
I persoanlly find Asian MMO a complete bore mostly because the gameplay mechanics are so simple, repeptitive, relying on EQ-like grinding mechanics and forced grouping with really bad translations. They're bad for me, but they're certainly not bad for Asians;)
I've played both Lineage II and WoW. I really prefer Lineage II over WoW, why, because Lineage II is more straightforward (here are the mobs... kill them to lvl up) while in WoW grind is as many have already said hidden in quests.
I even prefer the PvP in Lineage II, sieges are just uber.
I just hope that noone shows up saying that Lineage II is still more mindless than WoW... cause they are both mindless games but I prefer not to complicate, therefore I like Lineage II more.
Apart from this topic I think the best MMO is EVE online.
If you do want to play an asian grindfest game play Lineage II or RF online (depends on what you like more, fantasy of sci-fi).
You're not afraid of the dark, are you?
So what exactly does your post have to with mine? What I pointed out is simply that. The western market has grown stagnant. It hasn't evolved, it's not revolutionizing anything, it's not changing. Would it also help to point out just about every western game released in the eastern market has also failed. (EQ, SWG, etc etc)
Sword of the New World didn't do well here. On the other hand it's counter part Granado Espada is currently still doing very well in korea, japan, and singipore. Granado Espada uses a Multi character control system, why would mobs be sparse? That statement you made about mobs and Sword of the New World just doesn't make sense at all.
As for Requiem, tough to say. I know people that play it and love it, as well as people that tried it and hate it. You can never really tell how a game will do till it's released. Even after all this time I'm still amazed at the fact that Eve-Online has 200-250,000 subscribers. Played it during it's beta just before they updated it, and it then required you to have a video card that supported Transformation and Lighting. Played it after it went live. Played it a bit a year or two after that to. I find the game utterly boring still to this day.
"It's not a mistake, if you make a game for your Market that is willing to accept low grade quality game" I nearly fell out my chair laughing at this statement. I can just tell it's pretty pointless talking with you at this point. Where as I play both Western and Eastern games, and see merit in both. You seem to have an issue with eastern games that weren't designed for your western audience to begin with. If you have an issue with eastern games. Take it up with the companies that localize them. As it's their decision to bring the games here.
Maybe you can even get some of these lazy Western developers to get off their butts, and do something different. Hell i'd even be happy if they put more effort into their character animations. Because from my perspective right now. When I want variety I look for an eastern mmo, when I want to see what GOOD animations look like I look for an eastern mmo. Lineage 2 is how old now, and the armor and weapon models for that game pretty much spank 90% of the stuff you see alot of the Western MMO's out now.
In War - Victory.
In Peace - Vigilance.
In Death - Sacrifice.
Roin, the comparisions I make are between the major games that eveyone knows in the Asian and Western markets. No one in my area knows about any asian sports MMO games. Everyone knows Raputz, Lineage2, Sword of the New World, Fury, Guild Wars. ALL OF THESE GAMES LOOK AND PLAY ALMOST THE SAME. The art styles are not even substancially diiferent. All of these games have mindless enemies roaming just outside the city gates who all spam 1 attack with horrible animations. All of the characters progress through the game with the same sets of armor on. The crafted armor is not unique in anyway, and there is really very little customization of items unless you are max level.
Also clunky point and click interfaces are horrible. In order to play in PvP or epic PvE battles you always have to have you camera zoomed out just to be able to click around behind you and stuff. Most of the menu systems in these games are uncustomizable. This is an epic fail when dealing with gmaes that focus on PvP.