Why is class restricting? You can always make an alt. It is no different that you have to choose a set of skills and get locked into them. So the fault is NOT with the class system, but whether there is lock-in rules. If a char is allowed to change class at well, there won't be complaints about restrictions.
Making an alt means starting a different character. Another character that's going to be locked into a prescribed set of abilities, just like your main.
On the other hand a skill based system allows you to create new character types of your own, it allows you to experiement, and invent. Things you will never get in a class based system.
A skill based system can give you group dynamics(it worked in AC and UO), the designers just need to design skill sets that reward the players for specializing in certain areas. In UO to be a good warrior for instance you need to take about 5 related skills to a high level, but that still leaves a couple hundred skill points to put into somthing else. So you could be a warrior that has a bit of magic skill, or a warrior that has some thieving skills, or a warrior that has a few ninja abilities. And it works.
Personally, I have always prefered skill based systems. And lately I've really gotten sick of all the class based MMOs. Wether it's realistic or not, wether it's easier for devlopers or not, at the end of the day it's BORING.
Why is class restricting? You can always make an alt. It is no different that you have to choose a set of skills and get locked into them. So the fault is NOT with the class system, but whether there is lock-in rules. If a char is allowed to change class at well, there won't be complaints about restrictions.
Making an alt means starting a different character. Another character that's going to be locked into a prescribed set of abilities, just like your main.
On the other hand a skill based system allows you to create new character types of your own, it allows you to experiement, and invent. Things you will never get in a class based system.
A skill based system can give you group dynamics(it worked in AC and UO), the designers just need to design skill sets that reward the players for specializing in certain areas. In UO to be a good warrior for instance you need to take about 5 related skills to a high level, but that still leaves a couple hundred skill points to put into somthing else. So you could be a warrior that has a bit of magic skill, or a warrior that has some thieving skills, or a warrior that has a few ninja abilities. And it works.
Personally, I have always prefered skill based systems. And lately I've really gotten sick of all the class based MMOs. Wether it's realistic or not, wether it's easier for devlopers or not, at the end of the day it's BORING.
Not if the skill systems have restrictions and don't allow you to respec.
Not if the class system allows you to change class.
Making an alt means starting a different character. Another character that's going to be locked into a prescribed set of abilities, just like your main. On the other hand a skill based system allows you to create new character types of your own, it allows you to experiement, and invent. Things you will never get in a class based system.
Not if the skill systems have restrictions and don't allow you to respec.
Not if the class system allows you to change class.
I'm not sure I understand your first sentence.... but I'll try to reply: Respeccing IMO falls far short of being able to design your own custom character from a long bank of skills and skill sets. Especially if you're refering to WoW's system...
As to your second sentence: Changing classes does NOT = inventing. And it certainly doesn't equate all the customization options I just laid out in my post.
Ok, there are many things about MMOs that I feel are outdated, levels are probably the best example. But classes are not one of them. Not only are classes good for an MMO, I believe they are vital. It's my understanding that CoH was originally beta tested without classes and it was a fiasco. Nobody knew their roles in group play. Not only that, but having classes follows our real life situation. We all (well those of us who are motivated) pick a "class" or more appropriately, a profession in life. Some people become doctors, some become engineers, some become janitors, etc. So this is how it works in the world of MMOs. Someone who trains to fight with a sword is not just going to be able to go out and start casting spells on mobs. It's too unbelievable. Having classes brings structure to the game. No, my opinion is that they must remain.
so thats what happened, they let in a bunch of retards who couldn't figure the game out those retards complained and the developers listened and dumbed down the game for them.
maybe they should have an IQ test or some other Aptitude test for beta test so people like that can't get in.
I also knew a doctor who had a black belt in judo/jui jitsu. but at least he could diagnose you after he kicked the crap out of the person lol. Classes don't go along in real life at all because anyone can learn anything if they put the time and effort in.
I have played table top RPG for over 20 years, but i have not played one with classes (or levels), and same with MMORPGs. However, im now forced to do it. The next MMO im looking forward ti is TCoS.....and i hope i will have fun anyway.
You mean to tell me you've been playign table top games for over 20 years and never once touched D&D?
Now my opinion is I like having a class system, but where you can pick skills with a penalty for picking skills that might go against the grain for your chosen class. One that would still use levels, but only as points where skill points are gained.
And alas we have the justification for continually placing class systems into online gaming. You are exactly the kind of player that justifies this...
Point is that for "realism" to be instituted classes need to go away, not remain. I was in the military, yet I've graduated from college. I run a small business but if you give me a weapon I can certainly defend myself. The real point here is that people are diverse. Some more than others but all born with the capacity to do many things with varying degrees of success. Classes simply dumb-down the realistic aspect of any game they inhabit. I only know a few people out of the thousands I have met that can only do 1 thing... 99.99% off all people I have known are capable of having numerous skillsets and capabilities. Some people are exceptional at 1 thing, very good at other things, and not-so-good at a lot of things. You can't just place that person into 1 class restrict them to doing ONLY the things that class allows him/her to do. This is where the realistic aspect of online gaming fails. The problem is that I fear the vast majority of online gamers may in fact NEED to be restricted to classes. They may lack the desire or knowledge to diversify their avatar. Everytime I see someone on these boards claim they like class systems in online gaming it just reinforces to me the justification for WoW, WAR, AoC, L2, current SWG, and every other MMO out there at this time. As long as you currently subscribe to an MMO with class-based systems you do not have the right to complain about it. You are justifying to THAT developer/publisher that you enjoy the system they provide you enough to pay a monthly fee to play it.
RIGHT ON!
To say that classes are essential to a game is basically saying that your player base are idiots b/c they can't figure out what people can do what.
It isn't difficult in a skill based game without classes to send out a shout asking for a tank. Squishies aren't going to volunteer to get wailed on, and those that have trained in heavy armours and shields will.
Restricting players to a "class" is also just boring. Why not allow true hybrids that can do a number of things, but none of them particularly well? If someone wants to pigeonhole themselves, let them, but don't FORCE everyone into doing so.
In an even more radical direction, we should get away as MMO players from believing we need an auto-attack option, skills that magically "refresh" after a specified number of seconds, and specific targeting systems.
As technology increases and becomes better and better at processing and transmitting more massive amounts of data we should expect to see more life-like and realistic combat and gameplay. Shouldn't we have swordplay or gunplay that mimicks reality? If i hack your neck with a sharp sword and you aren't wearing armor, you will probably die. Why not have this the case in MMOs? Implement a totally immersive game. Every movement done in real life would be mimmicked in game.
I just find it totally lame that i press a button and my avatar is like, WOW BANG ZOOM! DESTROY! then i do that ten billion times and it becomes pretty stupid around time 100...
Here is the sum of your problems. If you accept in your belief that something is not possible, then you will only be met with failure. If you allow for the possiblity of belief into your heart that there could be something better, and even more, you believe in something specifically better, then you will actually attain that belief!
Your acceptance of crap is what makes you happy wading around in it.
If i thought the grass i walked on was okay, i would never realize that around the corner was a lawn of 100 dollar bills.
get your head out of the blinders and allow the possiblity of something better.
I agree with both points that they are too restricting but also that they help with group cohesion and role definitions. Real life has classes in any organized event. If people are working together at a company or if people are making a film or developing a game then people have classes. In the entirety of their life of course they can do other things, but within that group they have their role and that's what they do. If a programmer can also do his own accounting for his taxes, he doesn't bust it out when he's at work.
What if there was a system where there were no explicit classes selected when you begin the game; you would be able to learn skills and create your own focus. HOWEVER, when it's time to start a group effort, such as a quest or something, then everyone in the quest would assign/select TEMPORARY classes so that everyone knew their roles?
So I could be a healer on one quest and a ranger on another, but with the same character. And while I was assigned those roles, I would perform primarily those roles with the skills I have because I would know others would perform their other temporary roles.
Ok, there are many things about MMOs that I feel are outdated, levels are probably the best example. But classes are not one of them. Not only are classes good for an MMO, I believe they are vital. It's my understanding that CoH was originally beta tested without classes and it was a fiasco. Nobody knew their roles in group play. Not only that, but having classes follows our real life situation. We all (well those of us who are motivated) pick a "class" or more appropriately, a profession in life. Some people become doctors, some become engineers, some become janitors, etc. So this is how it works in the world of MMOs. Someone who trains to fight with a sword is not just going to be able to go out and start casting spells on mobs. It's too unbelievable. Having classes brings structure to the game. No, my opinion is that they must remain.
so thats what happened, they let in a bunch of retards who couldn't figure the game out those retards complained and the developers listened and dumbed down the game for them.
maybe they should have an IQ test or some other Aptitude test for beta test so people like that can't get in.
I also knew a doctor who had a black belt in judo/jui jitsu. but at least he could diagnose you after he kicked the crap out of the person lol. Classes don't go along in real life at all because anyone can learn anything if they put the time and effort in.
A smart person who really believes in the classless system, could make a fortune if they started their own business and created that dream MMO.
What if there was a system where there were no explicit classes selected when you begin the game; you would be able to learn skills and create your own focus. HOWEVER, when it's time to start a group effort, such as a quest or something, then everyone in the quest would assign/select TEMPORARY classes so that everyone knew their roles?
what GuildWars has is a good start
everyone is a dual class (Ranger / Necro, Ranger / Warrior , etc)
you cannot change your primary class
but you *can* change your secondary class as its needed
I should also add,
GW is the most customizable game I know of for being able to change your skill sets/professions on the fly
Class based games are pretty much here to stay. Theres alot of reasons for that and i see alot people trying to justify why classless systems are more *realistic*
Ok you wanna talk about realistic (in a fantasy game /boggle for a start .. but i'll roll with it)
The warrior Archtype. Ok we have a warrior, hes trained in all armor types and most (if not all weapon types) .. apparently he picked these skills up on the weekend did he? No. He spent his entire youth training and learning these skills. As he advances in skill (level) he'll refin these skills more-so. Now people are bitching b/c the *warrior* cant learn a few healing spells too? Skills that the *priest* archtype spent his entire life perfecting?
I see the *well i am an accountant by profession, but i can cook ride a bike and know a fair bit about car mechanics .. therefore class bases systems = lose*
Yer ok .. your an Accountant .. and probably pretty darn good in that field. (its you profession after all). Ok you can cook ... so i'll see you on Iron Chef next week? No coz you a rank AMATURE cook. Ride a bike? Kewl your in the tour de france this year then? NO .. AMATURE. Know abit about car mechanic's? So you can re-build my F1 racecars engine right? errr NO .. AMATURE. Are you getting my point?
Were playing a *fantasy* game in which our archtypes aspire to be the best they can be in thier field. A warrior who devoted 50% of his time hunched over dusty scrolls to learn a few wizard spells will never be the top of his game. Our characters in these games are not supposed to be rank and file .. they are adventures! Heros! They are the Lance Armstrongs of the warrior world. They are the Iron chef's of the priest world .. and your truly bitching b/c you cant be all of the above?
Now i am all for secondary skills .. great they add flavor ... what your asking for though is a totally free skill set with no groupings? I am all in favor of giving classes more skill set options .. a game in which a warrior can choose to excel in sword and board over 2hander? Great. A game where a mage can choose to excel in fire spells over ice? fabulous. A game where a priest can cast healing spells weild heavy armor and 2handed weapons, sneak and backstab and toss a few arcance spells to boot? Go play a single player game ....
In short .. more options within a basic archtype is great .. it adds lot more flavor and depth to the game. A totally open skill set is garrbage. All that happens with totally open skill sets is number crunchers find the most powerful combo and the server fills up with them. Anyone who played AC and seen the OG invasion knows that .. and anyone with an ounce of sense can predict it.
"Anyone can learn anything if they put in the time and effort*
This is true .. but this is also what we here in reality call a *limiting factor* Sure if i was immortal and had 100% memory retention i could *learn* anything. I've yet to meet anyone in RL who has truly *mastered* more than one thing. I'm talking *mastered* here .. best of the best ... as our avatars are supposed to be .. not someone with rank and file knowledge (that level 5 guard!)... not someone who *did some martial arts courses on the weekend* .. I'm talking the guy who's 70 years old ... has been perfecting his martial art for 65 of those years 6 hours a day and *still* admits he's got things to learn.
I think the point *we* disagree on most is how we view our avatars. I view them as heros on the path of perfection .. striving to be the best. Alot of you seem to view them as weekend warriors who slap around thier mates with a wooden sword and shield on a sunday afternoon ...
Originally posted by Zindaihas Not only that, but having classes follows our real life situation. We all (well those of us who are motivated) pick a "class" or more appropriately, a profession in life. Some people become doctors, some become engineers, some become janitors, etc. So this is how it works in the world of MMOs. Someone who trains to fight with a sword is not just going to be able to go out and start casting spells on mobs. It's too unbelievable.
Thomas Jefferson was "a horticulturist, statesman, architect, archaeologist, paleontologist, author, inventor and founder of the University of Virginia."
That example of RL multiclassing aside, no one (who isn't cognitively impaired) is only able to do one thing throughout their entire life.
Ryzom has a classless system as close to perfection as possible:
- You can be everything at once, but you can't USE everything at the same time because it's impractical to switch equipment every other moment.
- You can level all skills without penalty, but for the most part this doesn't make you stronger than someone who has leveled only one or two skills, because what's relevant is what skill you're using right now.
- You have a role in a group, i.e. if you're healing you're a healer, if you're using melee and wearing heavy armour you're a tank, etc. But you aren't glued to this role forever; if you have the appropriate equipment on hand and have time to allow for the equipping delay, you can switch completely.
- It's impossible to cast healing spells on yourself. All skills gain a Self Heal Life ability that, at its lowest grade, heals 100 HP and has a two-minute cooldown. With each higher grade, it heals 100 additional HP and its cooldown lasts ten seconds longer.
- Veterans can effectively and efficiently group with newer players, because everyone is likely to have at least one low-level skill remaining.
- You don't have to buy skills, just abilities (which you can customise via the balanced stanza/credit system), so you have the entire skill tree open to you starting with the four basic trunks Fight, Magic, Craft, and Harvest. These each branch into more specific skills at 21, 51, 101, 151, and 201, with a max of 250. You can click a + icon on a skill in the skillbook window to see what the foremost upcoming branches are.
- There is no build-of-the-month syndrome because skills don't affect each other directly. It's recommended to have some healing capability because people in Ryzom's community love going out of their way to heal/res random players, and melee skills give more HP than any other skills, so one of those is helpful to have, but beyond that, the first sentence in this paragraph stands.
- Soloing isn't easy in Ryzom. Most people group.
----------- In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on August 13, 2008.
Not only that, but having classes follows our real life situation. We all (well those of us who are motivated) pick a "class" or more appropriately, a profession in life. Some people become doctors, some become engineers, some become janitors, etc. So this is how it works in the world of MMOs. Someone who trains to fight with a sword is not just going to be able to go out and start casting spells on mobs. It's too unbelievable.
Thomas Jefferson was "a horticulturist, statesman, architect, archaeologist, paleontologist, author, inventor and founder of the University of Virginia."
That example of RL multiclassing aside, no one (who isn't cognitively impaired) is only able to do one thing throughout their entire life.
That is the most irrelevant example you could have chosen.
In an MMO, just about every one of those things would be considered a tradeskill. So congratulations, you have just argued that EQ's crafting system makes more sense than EQ2's.
Only game I've played without predetermined classes (and levels for that matter) is my current one, EVE online. Got a laugh last night though, when I joined my new corporation several folks immediately asked what my focus/profession/occupation was.
I didn't know quite how to answer them, so I told them what skills I had trained up. They immediately labeled me a combat pilot (vs a miner, or an industrialist or a trader I guess)
So even though EVE would let me train up all these skills eventually, it does force you to chose and limit your choices to certain tracks (at least when you're new) and that by default puts in you a class of sorts.
I'm open to either style, sort of waiting for a fantasy mmo to come out with the skill based, no level system so I can see how much fun it might be.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Ultimately, in any free skill based game, there are a few setups that happen to be become the preferred setups for players. People spend hours figuring out which skill combinations work well together and often these skill groups are given names. Usually nothing like "Mage" or "Warrior"... but the fact remains that templates get created in the game's community, and people begin to follow that.
Why? Because those templates excel in certain areas. A player will then create multiple characters with different templates and play based on his preference.
Now, the fun part is figuring out which skill combinations really work well together and tweaking them to perfection...
This takes place for a few months after a game's release.... but eventually new players step in and have these templates available to them.
Though they might try something different, chances are it has been done before and the community will give yay/nay on it.
So here we have, a free skill based game that, after a few months of being released, the community has already given themselves templates to follow...
Right... and though a handful will still customize things to their liking, if enough people do it, that gets made into a "secondary" template and new players will also follow that.
Class based games will be what keeps happening since the players themselves keep developing templates and following them.
Less trouble and money to just tweak a class to a communities liking. I'm fairly certain it is nerve wracking to make every single skill just as viable and worthwhile in the world, so that some skills don't get overlooked.
Multi-Class selection is my preferred method... 2 "main skill groups" with maybe a weak 3rd set... and then my crafting/gathering professions.
Making an alt means starting a different character. Another character that's going to be locked into a prescribed set of abilities, just like your main. On the other hand a skill based system allows you to create new character types of your own, it allows you to experiement, and invent. Things you will never get in a class based system.
Not if the skill systems have restrictions and don't allow you to respec.
Not if the class system allows you to change class.
I'm not sure I understand your first sentence.... but I'll try to reply: Respeccing IMO falls far short of being able to design your own custom character from a long bank of skills and skill sets. Especially if you're refering to WoW's system...
As to your second sentence: Changing classes does NOT = inventing. And it certainly doesn't equate all the customization options I just laid out in my post.
Nope. But I am merely point out that restrictions *can* be added to a skill system and that a class system *can* be more flexible than you have argued (like no lock-in).
Of course in a skills based character system there is always a template or 2 that will raise out of the crowd as the best combat template. But for those who are not thinking only of combat it gives so many more alternatives.
Back in early SWG I use to be smuggler with a bit of medic and some crafting skills. Not the best combat template but I did many things. Slicing weapons and armors, selling spices, support peoples with some healing (had to buy stims but it made economy runs) and being able to craft some stuff was handy some times.
Later I picked master pistoleer with pistol line of smuggler and BH and again I wasn't as tough as a TK/commando but I did like that template, it was original. And surprise, not so many people could beat me because when it did getting too hot I had many skill shots that helped me runaway.
Both these templates made me unique and original and its one of the most important thing to me in a MMO game.
Ghar i was gonna leave this thread alone .. but i'll pipe in again.
People are giving example of skill sets. (I am this and this and this - he was this and this and this) ... but your attaching no *rank*. Your just saying I can do these things .. not how good you are at them. Do you *TRULY* believe that you can ever hope to match .. say a professional doctor's abilitys with years of training and study? Because you took a first aid course?
There are degree's involved here that your not touching on at all. Saying *I can do x and x and x* is totally meaningless without a quantifyer.
Again it gets down to how we view our avatars. I view them as the best .. the best warrior .. the best mage .. you seem to want to view them as a *jack of all trades*
There will be a limiting factor. Levels. Skillpoints .. whatever. If there is no limiting factor .. everyone does everything .. yer that game is called Oblivion .. check it out. Cap all your skills, have a ball .. its not what MMORPGs (with thier GROUP PLAY) are based on. So with a limiting factor spreading your skill allocation means your a jack of trades ..
Is that what your asking for? The ability to *choose* to *Be ok* at 5 things rather than be good at one or two? I dont understand *why* you'd do that. How the hell can you balance a game (from a dev stand point) when the *tank* could vary from 20% - 100% able. (assuming you split your skills) More to the point .. what group would take anything less than 100% tank spec'd toon to tank? (Given the choice) You'd end up with an underclass of people with *off-specs* who were not desired in groups. I've seen it. (Asherons Call) ... More-so you end up with the math geaks building the ultimate spec (OGMage) again .. I've seen it. Why the hell would you want that?
I'm all for having sub-skill sets .. all for making character more unique .. but the bottom line is .. when X group wants a tank .. they will take someone spec'd with tanking skills over someone spec'd with *some tanking and some rogue skills* Archtypes should be more open .. more secondary skills etc sure .. but the base concept of the class must come first.
Thats not to say i would be opposed to secondary lines that branch into other archtypes area (al-la hybrids) .. a warrior archtype who gets a set amount of *free* points to spend where they want ... take D&D for example .. you can learn other archtypes skills .. they cost more and are harder to learn .. seems reasonable ... but it can be done.
A real world example ... Its easier for an Auto-mechanic to lean about a boat's engine that it would be for a Plastic surgeon .. over-lapping skill sets and all. Not to say the surgeon could'ent learn .. but without the basic principles the auto-mechanic has it would take longer.
I seen a reply using Ryzon as an example ... can level all skills to cap etc etc. This game is less about skills then and more about equipment. If you have heavy armor you can be a tank. If you have the glowey wand you can be a wizard.
How this encourages good group play baffles me .. loot whoring must be a massive point of contension since everybody *needs* everything. The best toon for the job is the one with the gear and the skills .. since everyone can have the skills .. its all about gear .. I assume this game has no raiding? If it indeed does then i can see guildmasters enforcing *classes* on people .. since progression in raiding is weighed by gear (better gear = faster / easier progression) the last thing a raid leader wants is loot dilution because *everyone* needs *everything* .. gear your tanks in tank gear your healers in healing gear etc .. giving a tank healing gear (because i have the skill !!!) would be a huge NO-NO ... /shrug
As i said above .. with no limiting factor anyone can do anything .. not my version of fun but hey .. whatever floats your boat. I seriously doubt that model will be adopted in a P2P game .. simply because if you wanna heal you roll a healer .. you wanna tank you roll a tank .. alts = time to level .. time = money. MMORPGs are all about the dollar.
The issues you are raising demarc have been addressed already in this thread.
Here's an excerpt from my post earlier (#28)
"On the other hand a skill based system allows you to create new character types of your own, it allows you to experiement, and invent. Things you will never get in a class based system.
A skill based system can give you group dynamics(it worked in AC and UO), the designers just need to design skill sets that reward the players for specializing in certain areas. In UO to be a good warrior for instance you need to take about 5 related skills to a high level, but that still leaves a couple hundred skill points to put into somthing else. So you could be a warrior that has a bit of magic skill, or a warrior that has some thieving skills, or a warrior that has a few ninja abilities. And it works."
There are already MMOs out that have skill based systems, or even hybrid class-skill based systems that work very well and have been in the market for many years. If a class based system is what you prefer then you have nothing to get upset about since the majority of MMOs are designed this way. What the rest of us who are fans of skill based games are saying is that we wish developers would create more skill-based MMOs for those of us that prefer that.
I've been thinking about it ... I'm assuming that people who desire a skill based game are living under the illusion that the Dev's can make a game where every skill combination the players can conceive is balanced with every other skill combination?
Thats simply not fesable unless you have a very *VERY* limited skill pool or alot of skills with nice names that actually *do* the same thing.
Trust me .. the min/maxers *will* tear appart skill ladders to find that 0.5% advantage ... then the game changes to a player enforced class system. Instead of dev's telling you *these are you skill trees spec away* .. players will tell you *this is how to spec* for X desired effect. Again it leads to an under-class where off spec's are looked down upon b/c they are X% less efficient at thier given role.
Take WoW as an example. The Skill trees were not overly complex .. yet for each desired playstyle (Shadow-priest, fury-warrior, prot-warrior) there were *cookie-cutter*spec's. Spec'in outside these torn appart spec's was a no-no for a serious raider (or PvP'r) The math was done .. these are the *best* .. and that game had a very limited set of skills. A totally open skill based game? The skill sets would be torn appart and the most efficient spec's soon brought to light.
Even WoW's over-hauls to the skill tree's lasted what? a month? before the *new* spec's were common knowledge.
Heck even with a secondary skill set .. it would take an amazing job of balancing .. or making secondary skills super situational to balance them in any realistic way ... if not done correctly .. there would soon be a *Best* secondary skill set for each class / desired outcome.
It sounds dumb ... but if you've every been in a true raiding or PvP guild .. you'll know what I mean when I say that *best* spec's are encouraged (in some guilds Required!!) Add to the the possible player stygma attached to characters who dont have these *perfect* skill set-ups .. your just asking for trouble.
I've found that *pure* skill based games tend to be more ridged in thier skill set-ups than the class based games. Generally .. in class based games secondary skills (AA points in EQ2 for example) have less of a huge impact on a character and thus more leeway is given to how people spec .. where as pure skill based games are the opposite ... if your not spec'd a certian way ... oh oh. Just my experiance. Saying that, the last skill based games i played i was a hard core raider / PvP'r .. so it was important to have the extra few % ... now i'm alot more casual .. for a pure casual player .. specin how they imagine thier character could be fun ... for a raider / PvP'r .. it would not be a serious option.
Onin-
I'm not upset at all .. just enjoying the debate. What your saying about UO (taking 4 or 5 core skills to be a warrior) is basically what I said about the Archtype remaining true and opening a pool of secondary skills. All I am pointing out is that in a totally skill based system .. there are still *core* skills to achieve a desired effect. The 4 or 5 warrior skills. What difference does it make if your template includes these skills from the start and gives you your *couple 100's points* to spend elsewhere .. or you take these skills anyway.
My point is that in order to fullfil a given role .. you need to keep some archtype skills pure. From a Dev's point of view thats a good thing. An open system allows say a healer to pick up heals and ignore cures. How does a dev balance an encounter for healer's when some may have decided that *i'd rather have crossbows than cures* ...
What this ultimatly leads to is a player enforced class system where-in any healer without the aforementioned *cure* spell is concidered *gimp* and a second-class citizan. You get my point? Player created classes are no different than dev created classes in my mind. Sure in an open skill based system you can *choose* to spec how you want .. but realistically .. if you want to fullfill the role of healer .. your taking those core skills eitherway ...
Ryzom doesn't have equipment as loot, only craftable materials. Player crafters create all equipment.
There is a small exception: A few bosses who are of apelike species drop useful stat-boosting jewelry. But this does not cause contention because Ryzom players are generally too mature to do anything but divide loot fairly among a group. And someone outside a group can't ninja that group's loot because only those who do the most damage to a creature own the right to loot it.
There used to be an NPC boss who dropped uncraftable armour, but that has been replaced by four NPC superbosses who drop fragments of crafting plans for similar armour.
Ryzom doesn't have raiding as such, but it does have two grades of roaming named creatures, and bosses who stay in specific places surrounded by minions. Additionally, in the past it has had live storyline events involving massive PvE invasions.
Originally posted by demarc01 I seen a reply using Ryzon as an example ... can level all skills to cap etc etc. This game is less about skills then and more about equipment. If you have heavy armor you can be a tank. If you have the glowey wand you can be a wizard. How this encourages good group play baffles me .. loot whoring must be a massive point of contension since everybody *needs* everything. The best toon for the job is the one with the gear and the skills .. since everyone can have the skills .. its all about gear .. I assume this game has no raiding? If it indeed does then i can see guildmasters enforcing *classes* on people .. since progression in raiding is weighed by gear (better gear = faster / easier progression) the last thing a raid leader wants is loot dilution because *everyone* needs *everything* .. gear your tanks in tank gear your healers in healing gear etc .. giving a tank healing gear (because i have the skill !!!) would be a huge NO-NO ... /shrug
----------- In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on August 13, 2008.
Our opinions may not be so far apart... although you do seem to be looking at it from more of a EQ/WOW raiding/PvP stand point, and I'm looking at if from more of a UO/AC PVE/PVP/RP standpoint.
Class systems may have some strengths from a raiding standpoint and PVP balance standpoint, but for my personal play-style I prefer and generally have more fun in a purely skill-based system. Although a class system with secondary skills/sub-classes, or class system with a lot of customization within the class can be acceptable to me.
Personally i favor a *loose* class based system with many options. The core skills need to be there, tanks tank .. healers heal. I do like to see as much in the way of secondary skills / options as possible.
VGSoH did this to a degree .. but failed in it as well. Instead of giving you a free reign to create your character they tried to give you sub-characters with-in the archtype. For example healers. The bloodmage (caster/healer) the Cleric (tanker/healer) the Disciple (Melee/healer) and the shaman (the real caster/melee/healer).
They tried to cover alot of bases with the sub-types of each archtype, and they did it pretty well. To me tho the classes were still too confining. (A Disciple was pretty much ther same as every other disciple given equal gearing)
I would much prefure to see just the basic 4 archtypes, (Tank, Healer, Nuker, DPS) with thier pre-set *baseline* skills. Tanks taunt, heavy armor, weapons, healers heal, cure, buff etc .. and from there allow the player to build a character from that point. Having a very *small* set of core skills that the archtype has and a much larger set of *Primary / secondary* skills that are choosen by the player.
As an example .. the DPS archtype, may get a crit ability, an evasion ability and a light armor ability. These would be the core abilitys. From there the player can choose skills to fill out *thier vision* of thier character.
Want a ranger? Pick longsword / bow / sneak / tame animals as primarys .. and traps / posions / forage as secondarys.
Want a swashbuckler? Pick Rapier / Parry / Buckler / Fencing as primarys and Charm / acrobatics / pistols as secondarys.
Allowing the player to pick a character this way is fraught with mis-adventure tho .. skills have to be balanced etc .. and not just skills .. if players 3 months down the line find that the *longbow of doom* epic drop means a 10% DPS increase over the *rapier of stabbey*epic drop .. there will be uproar !!. Rangers will be *uber* swashies will be *Gimp*
Thats mainly the reason I dont see heavy skill based games becoming popular .. basically the coders do the best they can .. but the player base are math freaks who will work out and point out any small % in DPS / HPS etc that can be gained by a specific weapon / skill / stat set-up.
One way to disrupt this mass calculation is to add a very random element to drops ... have alot of variables on magical items .. of course this just promotes mass inflation on the perceived *perfect* items .. so its a band-aid .. not a fix.
I do feel classes have to keep the *Core* abilitys tho .. not from a *safe place* gamer .. but looking at it from the Dev's viewpoint. To keep the challange rating even accross the board the core classes have to be able to fullfill a basic roll ... healers must be able to heal / cure .. tanks have to be able to taunt / mitigate. Past these *core* abilitys? Well thats fair game for as much customization as possible .. assuming the Devs can maintain a balance without having 50 skills that actually only do 5 things .. just with different names / partical effects
There-in lies the challange. Making the primary / secondary abilitys all viable and all balanced .. stopping the math freaks from telling me 2 weeks into the game what the *best* skill set-up is .. make 'em all viable.
Comments
MMOs aside
the "Class vs Skills" system variations have been around for decades in Tabletop gaming
some pnp RPGS do Classes (like D&D) other systems do skills (like GURPS)
there is no right way to do it
EQ2 fan sites
Making an alt means starting a different character. Another character that's going to be locked into a prescribed set of abilities, just like your main.
On the other hand a skill based system allows you to create new character types of your own, it allows you to experiement, and invent. Things you will never get in a class based system.
A skill based system can give you group dynamics(it worked in AC and UO), the designers just need to design skill sets that reward the players for specializing in certain areas. In UO to be a good warrior for instance you need to take about 5 related skills to a high level, but that still leaves a couple hundred skill points to put into somthing else. So you could be a warrior that has a bit of magic skill, or a warrior that has some thieving skills, or a warrior that has a few ninja abilities. And it works.
Personally, I have always prefered skill based systems. And lately I've really gotten sick of all the class based MMOs. Wether it's realistic or not, wether it's easier for devlopers or not, at the end of the day it's BORING.
Making an alt means starting a different character. Another character that's going to be locked into a prescribed set of abilities, just like your main.
On the other hand a skill based system allows you to create new character types of your own, it allows you to experiement, and invent. Things you will never get in a class based system.
A skill based system can give you group dynamics(it worked in AC and UO), the designers just need to design skill sets that reward the players for specializing in certain areas. In UO to be a good warrior for instance you need to take about 5 related skills to a high level, but that still leaves a couple hundred skill points to put into somthing else. So you could be a warrior that has a bit of magic skill, or a warrior that has some thieving skills, or a warrior that has a few ninja abilities. And it works.
Personally, I have always prefered skill based systems. And lately I've really gotten sick of all the class based MMOs. Wether it's realistic or not, wether it's easier for devlopers or not, at the end of the day it's BORING.
Not if the skill systems have restrictions and don't allow you to respec.
Not if the class system allows you to change class.
Not if the skill systems have restrictions and don't allow you to respec.
Not if the class system allows you to change class.
I'm not sure I understand your first sentence.... but I'll try to reply: Respeccing IMO falls far short of being able to design your own custom character from a long bank of skills and skill sets. Especially if you're refering to WoW's system...
As to your second sentence: Changing classes does NOT = inventing. And it certainly doesn't equate all the customization options I just laid out in my post.
maybe they should have an IQ test or some other Aptitude test for beta test so people like that can't get in.
I also knew a doctor who had a black belt in judo/jui jitsu. but at least he could diagnose you after he kicked the crap out of the person lol. Classes don't go along in real life at all because anyone can learn anything if they put the time and effort in.
You mean to tell me you've been playign table top games for over 20 years and never once touched D&D?
Now my opinion is I like having a class system, but where you can pick skills with a penalty for picking skills that might go against the grain for your chosen class. One that would still use levels, but only as points where skill points are gained.
To say that classes are essential to a game is basically saying that your player base are idiots b/c they can't figure out what people can do what.
It isn't difficult in a skill based game without classes to send out a shout asking for a tank. Squishies aren't going to volunteer to get wailed on, and those that have trained in heavy armours and shields will.
Restricting players to a "class" is also just boring. Why not allow true hybrids that can do a number of things, but none of them particularly well? If someone wants to pigeonhole themselves, let them, but don't FORCE everyone into doing so.
In an even more radical direction, we should get away as MMO players from believing we need an auto-attack option, skills that magically "refresh" after a specified number of seconds, and specific targeting systems.
As technology increases and becomes better and better at processing and transmitting more massive amounts of data we should expect to see more life-like and realistic combat and gameplay. Shouldn't we have swordplay or gunplay that mimicks reality? If i hack your neck with a sharp sword and you aren't wearing armor, you will probably die. Why not have this the case in MMOs? Implement a totally immersive game. Every movement done in real life would be mimmicked in game.
I just find it totally lame that i press a button and my avatar is like, WOW BANG ZOOM! DESTROY! then i do that ten billion times and it becomes pretty stupid around time 100...
Here is the sum of your problems. If you accept in your belief that something is not possible, then you will only be met with failure. If you allow for the possiblity of belief into your heart that there could be something better, and even more, you believe in something specifically better, then you will actually attain that belief!
Your acceptance of crap is what makes you happy wading around in it.
If i thought the grass i walked on was okay, i would never realize that around the corner was a lawn of 100 dollar bills.
get your head out of the blinders and allow the possiblity of something better.
I agree with both points that they are too restricting but also that they help with group cohesion and role definitions. Real life has classes in any organized event. If people are working together at a company or if people are making a film or developing a game then people have classes. In the entirety of their life of course they can do other things, but within that group they have their role and that's what they do. If a programmer can also do his own accounting for his taxes, he doesn't bust it out when he's at work.
What if there was a system where there were no explicit classes selected when you begin the game; you would be able to learn skills and create your own focus. HOWEVER, when it's time to start a group effort, such as a quest or something, then everyone in the quest would assign/select TEMPORARY classes so that everyone knew their roles?
So I could be a healer on one quest and a ranger on another, but with the same character. And while I was assigned those roles, I would perform primarily those roles with the skills I have because I would know others would perform their other temporary roles.
Thoughts...?
http://www.QuickQuests.com - The Minutes-A-Day MMORPG that won't consume your life
maybe they should have an IQ test or some other Aptitude test for beta test so people like that can't get in.
I also knew a doctor who had a black belt in judo/jui jitsu. but at least he could diagnose you after he kicked the crap out of the person lol. Classes don't go along in real life at all because anyone can learn anything if they put the time and effort in.
A smart person who really believes in the classless system, could make a fortune if they started their own business and created that dream MMO.
what GuildWars has is a good start
everyone is a dual class (Ranger / Necro, Ranger / Warrior , etc)
you cannot change your primary class
but you *can* change your secondary class as its needed
I should also add,
GW is the most customizable game I know of for being able to change your skill sets/professions on the fly
- and often with no ingame fee
EQ2 fan sites
Class based games are pretty much here to stay. Theres alot of reasons for that and i see alot people trying to justify why classless systems are more *realistic*
Ok you wanna talk about realistic (in a fantasy game /boggle for a start .. but i'll roll with it)
The warrior Archtype. Ok we have a warrior, hes trained in all armor types and most (if not all weapon types) .. apparently he picked these skills up on the weekend did he? No. He spent his entire youth training and learning these skills. As he advances in skill (level) he'll refin these skills more-so. Now people are bitching b/c the *warrior* cant learn a few healing spells too? Skills that the *priest* archtype spent his entire life perfecting?
I see the *well i am an accountant by profession, but i can cook ride a bike and know a fair bit about car mechanics .. therefore class bases systems = lose*
Yer ok .. your an Accountant .. and probably pretty darn good in that field. (its you profession after all). Ok you can cook ... so i'll see you on Iron Chef next week? No coz you a rank AMATURE cook. Ride a bike? Kewl your in the tour de france this year then? NO .. AMATURE. Know abit about car mechanic's? So you can re-build my F1 racecars engine right? errr NO .. AMATURE. Are you getting my point?
Were playing a *fantasy* game in which our archtypes aspire to be the best they can be in thier field. A warrior who devoted 50% of his time hunched over dusty scrolls to learn a few wizard spells will never be the top of his game. Our characters in these games are not supposed to be rank and file .. they are adventures! Heros! They are the Lance Armstrongs of the warrior world. They are the Iron chef's of the priest world .. and your truly bitching b/c you cant be all of the above?
Now i am all for secondary skills .. great they add flavor ... what your asking for though is a totally free skill set with no groupings? I am all in favor of giving classes more skill set options .. a game in which a warrior can choose to excel in sword and board over 2hander? Great. A game where a mage can choose to excel in fire spells over ice? fabulous. A game where a priest can cast healing spells weild heavy armor and 2handed weapons, sneak and backstab and toss a few arcance spells to boot? Go play a single player game ....
In short .. more options within a basic archtype is great .. it adds lot more flavor and depth to the game. A totally open skill set is garrbage. All that happens with totally open skill sets is number crunchers find the most powerful combo and the server fills up with them. Anyone who played AC and seen the OG invasion knows that .. and anyone with an ounce of sense can predict it.
"Anyone can learn anything if they put in the time and effort*
This is true .. but this is also what we here in reality call a *limiting factor* Sure if i was immortal and had 100% memory retention i could *learn* anything. I've yet to meet anyone in RL who has truly *mastered* more than one thing. I'm talking *mastered* here .. best of the best ... as our avatars are supposed to be .. not someone with rank and file knowledge (that level 5 guard!)... not someone who *did some martial arts courses on the weekend* .. I'm talking the guy who's 70 years old ... has been perfecting his martial art for 65 of those years 6 hours a day and *still* admits he's got things to learn.
I think the point *we* disagree on most is how we view our avatars. I view them as heros on the path of perfection .. striving to be the best. Alot of you seem to view them as weekend warriors who slap around thier mates with a wooden sword and shield on a sunday afternoon ...
That example of RL multiclassing aside, no one (who isn't cognitively impaired) is only able to do one thing throughout their entire life.
Ryzom has a classless system as close to perfection as possible:
- You can be everything at once, but you can't USE everything at the same time because it's impractical to switch equipment every other moment.
- You can level all skills without penalty, but for the most part this doesn't make you stronger than someone who has leveled only one or two skills, because what's relevant is what skill you're using right now.
- You have a role in a group, i.e. if you're healing you're a healer, if you're using melee and wearing heavy armour you're a tank, etc. But you aren't glued to this role forever; if you have the appropriate equipment on hand and have time to allow for the equipping delay, you can switch completely.
- It's impossible to cast healing spells on yourself. All skills gain a Self Heal Life ability that, at its lowest grade, heals 100 HP and has a two-minute cooldown. With each higher grade, it heals 100 additional HP and its cooldown lasts ten seconds longer.
- Veterans can effectively and efficiently group with newer players, because everyone is likely to have at least one low-level skill remaining.
- You don't have to buy skills, just abilities (which you can customise via the balanced stanza/credit system), so you have the entire skill tree open to you starting with the four basic trunks Fight, Magic, Craft, and Harvest. These each branch into more specific skills at 21, 51, 101, 151, and 201, with a max of 250. You can click a + icon on a skill in the skillbook window to see what the foremost upcoming branches are.
- There is no build-of-the-month syndrome because skills don't affect each other directly. It's recommended to have some healing capability because people in Ryzom's community love going out of their way to heal/res random players, and melee skills give more HP than any other skills, so one of those is helpful to have, but beyond that, the first sentence in this paragraph stands.
- Soloing isn't easy in Ryzom. Most people group.
-----------
In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on August 13, 2008.
demarc outlined the arguments well, and I have only this to add:
I have played many MMOs with classes and several MMOswithout classes.
I enjoy the games with classes a lot more, and I think it is because I like to group with people.
Classes encourage and facilitate grouping. Period. Classless games are full of people who like to solo.
I would venture to guess that 95% of classless/sandbox fans are also solo players at heart.
That example of RL multiclassing aside, no one (who isn't cognitively impaired) is only able to do one thing throughout their entire life.
That is the most irrelevant example you could have chosen.In an MMO, just about every one of those things would be considered a tradeskill. So congratulations, you have just argued that EQ's crafting system makes more sense than EQ2's.
Only game I've played without predetermined classes (and levels for that matter) is my current one, EVE online. Got a laugh last night though, when I joined my new corporation several folks immediately asked what my focus/profession/occupation was.
I didn't know quite how to answer them, so I told them what skills I had trained up. They immediately labeled me a combat pilot (vs a miner, or an industrialist or a trader I guess)
So even though EVE would let me train up all these skills eventually, it does force you to chose and limit your choices to certain tracks (at least when you're new) and that by default puts in you a class of sorts.
I'm open to either style, sort of waiting for a fantasy mmo to come out with the skill based, no level system so I can see how much fun it might be.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Ultimately, in any free skill based game, there are a few setups that happen to be become the preferred setups for players. People spend hours figuring out which skill combinations work well together and often these skill groups are given names. Usually nothing like "Mage" or "Warrior"... but the fact remains that templates get created in the game's community, and people begin to follow that.
Why? Because those templates excel in certain areas. A player will then create multiple characters with different templates and play based on his preference.
Now, the fun part is figuring out which skill combinations really work well together and tweaking them to perfection...
This takes place for a few months after a game's release.... but eventually new players step in and have these templates available to them.
Though they might try something different, chances are it has been done before and the community will give yay/nay on it.
So here we have, a free skill based game that, after a few months of being released, the community has already given themselves templates to follow...
Right... and though a handful will still customize things to their liking, if enough people do it, that gets made into a "secondary" template and new players will also follow that.
Class based games will be what keeps happening since the players themselves keep developing templates and following them.
Less trouble and money to just tweak a class to a communities liking. I'm fairly certain it is nerve wracking to make every single skill just as viable and worthwhile in the world, so that some skills don't get overlooked.
Multi-Class selection is my preferred method... 2 "main skill groups" with maybe a weak 3rd set... and then my crafting/gathering professions.
Not if the skill systems have restrictions and don't allow you to respec.
Not if the class system allows you to change class.
I'm not sure I understand your first sentence.... but I'll try to reply: Respeccing IMO falls far short of being able to design your own custom character from a long bank of skills and skill sets. Especially if you're refering to WoW's system...
As to your second sentence: Changing classes does NOT = inventing. And it certainly doesn't equate all the customization options I just laid out in my post.
Nope. But I am merely point out that restrictions *can* be added to a skill system and that a class system *can* be more flexible than you have argued (like no lock-in).
Of course in a skills based character system there is always a template or 2 that will raise out of the crowd as the best combat template. But for those who are not thinking only of combat it gives so many more alternatives.
Back in early SWG I use to be smuggler with a bit of medic and some crafting skills. Not the best combat template but I did many things. Slicing weapons and armors, selling spices, support peoples with some healing (had to buy stims but it made economy runs) and being able to craft some stuff was handy some times.
Later I picked master pistoleer with pistol line of smuggler and BH and again I wasn't as tough as a TK/commando but I did like that template, it was original. And surprise, not so many people could beat me because when it did getting too hot I had many skill shots that helped me runaway.
Both these templates made me unique and original and its one of the most important thing to me in a MMO game.
Skill based system gives players choices.
Ghar i was gonna leave this thread alone .. but i'll pipe in again.
People are giving example of skill sets. (I am this and this and this - he was this and this and this) ... but your attaching no *rank*. Your just saying I can do these things .. not how good you are at them. Do you *TRULY* believe that you can ever hope to match .. say a professional doctor's abilitys with years of training and study? Because you took a first aid course?
There are degree's involved here that your not touching on at all. Saying *I can do x and x and x* is totally meaningless without a quantifyer.
Again it gets down to how we view our avatars. I view them as the best .. the best warrior .. the best mage .. you seem to want to view them as a *jack of all trades*
There will be a limiting factor. Levels. Skillpoints .. whatever. If there is no limiting factor .. everyone does everything .. yer that game is called Oblivion .. check it out. Cap all your skills, have a ball .. its not what MMORPGs (with thier GROUP PLAY) are based on. So with a limiting factor spreading your skill allocation means your a jack of trades ..
Is that what your asking for? The ability to *choose* to *Be ok* at 5 things rather than be good at one or two? I dont understand *why* you'd do that. How the hell can you balance a game (from a dev stand point) when the *tank* could vary from 20% - 100% able. (assuming you split your skills) More to the point .. what group would take anything less than 100% tank spec'd toon to tank? (Given the choice) You'd end up with an underclass of people with *off-specs* who were not desired in groups. I've seen it. (Asherons Call) ... More-so you end up with the math geaks building the ultimate spec (OGMage) again .. I've seen it. Why the hell would you want that?
I'm all for having sub-skill sets .. all for making character more unique .. but the bottom line is .. when X group wants a tank .. they will take someone spec'd with tanking skills over someone spec'd with *some tanking and some rogue skills* Archtypes should be more open .. more secondary skills etc sure .. but the base concept of the class must come first.
Thats not to say i would be opposed to secondary lines that branch into other archtypes area (al-la hybrids) .. a warrior archtype who gets a set amount of *free* points to spend where they want ... take D&D for example .. you can learn other archtypes skills .. they cost more and are harder to learn .. seems reasonable ... but it can be done.
A real world example ... Its easier for an Auto-mechanic to lean about a boat's engine that it would be for a Plastic surgeon .. over-lapping skill sets and all. Not to say the surgeon could'ent learn .. but without the basic principles the auto-mechanic has it would take longer.
I seen a reply using Ryzon as an example ... can level all skills to cap etc etc. This game is less about skills then and more about equipment. If you have heavy armor you can be a tank. If you have the glowey wand you can be a wizard.
How this encourages good group play baffles me .. loot whoring must be a massive point of contension since everybody *needs* everything. The best toon for the job is the one with the gear and the skills .. since everyone can have the skills .. its all about gear .. I assume this game has no raiding? If it indeed does then i can see guildmasters enforcing *classes* on people .. since progression in raiding is weighed by gear (better gear = faster / easier progression) the last thing a raid leader wants is loot dilution because *everyone* needs *everything* .. gear your tanks in tank gear your healers in healing gear etc .. giving a tank healing gear (because i have the skill !!!) would be a huge NO-NO ... /shrug
As i said above .. with no limiting factor anyone can do anything .. not my version of fun but hey .. whatever floats your boat. I seriously doubt that model will be adopted in a P2P game .. simply because if you wanna heal you roll a healer .. you wanna tank you roll a tank .. alts = time to level .. time = money. MMORPGs are all about the dollar.
The issues you are raising demarc have been addressed already in this thread.
Here's an excerpt from my post earlier (#28)
"On the other hand a skill based system allows you to create new character types of your own, it allows you to experiement, and invent. Things you will never get in a class based system.
A skill based system can give you group dynamics(it worked in AC and UO), the designers just need to design skill sets that reward the players for specializing in certain areas. In UO to be a good warrior for instance you need to take about 5 related skills to a high level, but that still leaves a couple hundred skill points to put into somthing else. So you could be a warrior that has a bit of magic skill, or a warrior that has some thieving skills, or a warrior that has a few ninja abilities. And it works."
There are already MMOs out that have skill based systems, or even hybrid class-skill based systems that work very well and have been in the market for many years. If a class based system is what you prefer then you have nothing to get upset about since the majority of MMOs are designed this way. What the rest of us who are fans of skill based games are saying is that we wish developers would create more skill-based MMOs for those of us that prefer that.
I've been thinking about it ... I'm assuming that people who desire a skill based game are living under the illusion that the Dev's can make a game where every skill combination the players can conceive is balanced with every other skill combination?
Thats simply not fesable unless you have a very *VERY* limited skill pool or alot of skills with nice names that actually *do* the same thing.
Trust me .. the min/maxers *will* tear appart skill ladders to find that 0.5% advantage ... then the game changes to a player enforced class system. Instead of dev's telling you *these are you skill trees spec away* .. players will tell you *this is how to spec* for X desired effect. Again it leads to an under-class where off spec's are looked down upon b/c they are X% less efficient at thier given role.
Take WoW as an example. The Skill trees were not overly complex .. yet for each desired playstyle (Shadow-priest, fury-warrior, prot-warrior) there were *cookie-cutter*spec's. Spec'in outside these torn appart spec's was a no-no for a serious raider (or PvP'r) The math was done .. these are the *best* .. and that game had a very limited set of skills. A totally open skill based game? The skill sets would be torn appart and the most efficient spec's soon brought to light.
Even WoW's over-hauls to the skill tree's lasted what? a month? before the *new* spec's were common knowledge.
Heck even with a secondary skill set .. it would take an amazing job of balancing .. or making secondary skills super situational to balance them in any realistic way ... if not done correctly .. there would soon be a *Best* secondary skill set for each class / desired outcome.
It sounds dumb ... but if you've every been in a true raiding or PvP guild .. you'll know what I mean when I say that *best* spec's are encouraged (in some guilds Required!!) Add to the the possible player stygma attached to characters who dont have these *perfect* skill set-ups .. your just asking for trouble.
I've found that *pure* skill based games tend to be more ridged in thier skill set-ups than the class based games. Generally .. in class based games secondary skills (AA points in EQ2 for example) have less of a huge impact on a character and thus more leeway is given to how people spec .. where as pure skill based games are the opposite ... if your not spec'd a certian way ... oh oh. Just my experiance. Saying that, the last skill based games i played i was a hard core raider / PvP'r .. so it was important to have the extra few % ... now i'm alot more casual .. for a pure casual player .. specin how they imagine thier character could be fun ... for a raider / PvP'r .. it would not be a serious option.
Onin-
I'm not upset at all .. just enjoying the debate. What your saying about UO (taking 4 or 5 core skills to be a warrior) is basically what I said about the Archtype remaining true and opening a pool of secondary skills. All I am pointing out is that in a totally skill based system .. there are still *core* skills to achieve a desired effect. The 4 or 5 warrior skills. What difference does it make if your template includes these skills from the start and gives you your *couple 100's points* to spend elsewhere .. or you take these skills anyway.
My point is that in order to fullfil a given role .. you need to keep some archtype skills pure. From a Dev's point of view thats a good thing. An open system allows say a healer to pick up heals and ignore cures. How does a dev balance an encounter for healer's when some may have decided that *i'd rather have crossbows than cures* ...
What this ultimatly leads to is a player enforced class system where-in any healer without the aforementioned *cure* spell is concidered *gimp* and a second-class citizan. You get my point? Player created classes are no different than dev created classes in my mind. Sure in an open skill based system you can *choose* to spec how you want .. but realistically .. if you want to fullfill the role of healer .. your taking those core skills eitherway ...
Ryzom doesn't have equipment as loot, only craftable materials. Player crafters create all equipment.
There is a small exception: A few bosses who are of apelike species drop useful stat-boosting jewelry. But this does not cause contention because Ryzom players are generally too mature to do anything but divide loot fairly among a group. And someone outside a group can't ninja that group's loot because only those who do the most damage to a creature own the right to loot it.
There used to be an NPC boss who dropped uncraftable armour, but that has been replaced by four NPC superbosses who drop fragments of crafting plans for similar armour.
Ryzom doesn't have raiding as such, but it does have two grades of roaming named creatures, and bosses who stay in specific places surrounded by minions. Additionally, in the past it has had live storyline events involving massive PvE invasions.
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In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on August 13, 2008.
demarc -
Our opinions may not be so far apart... although you do seem to be looking at it from more of a EQ/WOW raiding/PvP stand point, and I'm looking at if from more of a UO/AC PVE/PVP/RP standpoint.
Class systems may have some strengths from a raiding standpoint and PVP balance standpoint, but for my personal play-style I prefer and generally have more fun in a purely skill-based system. Although a class system with secondary skills/sub-classes, or class system with a lot of customization within the class can be acceptable to me.
Onin -
Personally i favor a *loose* class based system with many options. The core skills need to be there, tanks tank .. healers heal. I do like to see as much in the way of secondary skills / options as possible.
VGSoH did this to a degree .. but failed in it as well. Instead of giving you a free reign to create your character they tried to give you sub-characters with-in the archtype. For example healers. The bloodmage (caster/healer) the Cleric (tanker/healer) the Disciple (Melee/healer) and the shaman (the real caster/melee/healer).
They tried to cover alot of bases with the sub-types of each archtype, and they did it pretty well. To me tho the classes were still too confining. (A Disciple was pretty much ther same as every other disciple given equal gearing)
I would much prefure to see just the basic 4 archtypes, (Tank, Healer, Nuker, DPS) with thier pre-set *baseline* skills. Tanks taunt, heavy armor, weapons, healers heal, cure, buff etc .. and from there allow the player to build a character from that point. Having a very *small* set of core skills that the archtype has and a much larger set of *Primary / secondary* skills that are choosen by the player.
As an example .. the DPS archtype, may get a crit ability, an evasion ability and a light armor ability. These would be the core abilitys. From there the player can choose skills to fill out *thier vision* of thier character.
Want a ranger? Pick longsword / bow / sneak / tame animals as primarys .. and traps / posions / forage as secondarys.
Want a swashbuckler? Pick Rapier / Parry / Buckler / Fencing as primarys and Charm / acrobatics / pistols as secondarys.
Allowing the player to pick a character this way is fraught with mis-adventure tho .. skills have to be balanced etc .. and not just skills .. if players 3 months down the line find that the *longbow of doom* epic drop means a 10% DPS increase over the *rapier of stabbey*epic drop .. there will be uproar !!. Rangers will be *uber* swashies will be *Gimp*
Thats mainly the reason I dont see heavy skill based games becoming popular .. basically the coders do the best they can .. but the player base are math freaks who will work out and point out any small % in DPS / HPS etc that can be gained by a specific weapon / skill / stat set-up.
One way to disrupt this mass calculation is to add a very random element to drops ... have alot of variables on magical items .. of course this just promotes mass inflation on the perceived *perfect* items .. so its a band-aid .. not a fix.
I do feel classes have to keep the *Core* abilitys tho .. not from a *safe place* gamer .. but looking at it from the Dev's viewpoint. To keep the challange rating even accross the board the core classes have to be able to fullfill a basic roll ... healers must be able to heal / cure .. tanks have to be able to taunt / mitigate. Past these *core* abilitys? Well thats fair game for as much customization as possible .. assuming the Devs can maintain a balance without having 50 skills that actually only do 5 things .. just with different names / partical effects
There-in lies the challange. Making the primary / secondary abilitys all viable and all balanced .. stopping the math freaks from telling me 2 weeks into the game what the *best* skill set-up is .. make 'em all viable.