Another one bites the dust ....

Lobotomist

I lost my interest in MMO's ...

there I said it....

Since 2004 I am regular member of this forums. I played and tried everything , and i followed and took part ( community wise ) in most of MMOs in development. I seen this form of gaming blossom and vain.

And waited and waited and waited for the MMO messiah to come... but all what i seen was chain of disapointments. I am sure many of you feel this way...

And now 2008 , on the edge of final release of AOC and WAR it hits me...

This games are nothing like what 2004 mmo fan expected 2008 mmo would be

 

Where is the sandbox ? Where is community ? Where is roleplay ? Where is massive seamless world ?

It is replaced by

Instanced , battleground , grind , linear , limited , l337.

 

The new word is not community , group , simulation , open ended ... no

The new word is how to bring singleplayer experience into multiplayer game.

 

But why do i need that ? Singleplayer RPG's allready give me that in better way. Minus grind and minus sub...

Lack of content hidden by mandatory grind and raid...i am getting bored

 

Couple this with having no more than 10 hours to play weekly. When it seems to me that MMO design is targeted at population that has time and time on their hands...students, unemployed, stay home mom's.

 

Where is the world for us , the working class ?

 

And how about community ?

From one side we have the PVP crowd - that for some unfortunate reason draws (among others)   emotionally chalenged , social misfits - that find the MMO to be sole medium of exercising their frustration and hate.

And on the otherside the PVE crowd - that for some reason attracts stay home mom and dad , emo poets and people that confuse MMOs with My Space ...

And me ... for all my non-perfection , my visit to MMO community made me worse - bitter ...

 

And to make all this worse. Is there anything on horizon that will change MMOs for better ?

 

AOC ? WAR ? ... Aion ?

Just a same ol'grind

 

Sandbox is abandoned concept. Virtual world is abandoned concept.

 

The mmo of the future are singleplayer games in multiplayer enviroment with added grind ...

 

 

I had enough ....

 

Tatum

You are not alone...

The evolution of MMOs has really stagnated since WOW took off.  Its almost like we've experienced a mass extinction event and an evolutionary bottleneck   Entire branches of the MMO genre have died off while others have scrambled to conform.

There have been some advances since the early days, but these have been negated (IMHO) by the loss of other features, depth, and content.  We're seeing what happens when a form of entertainment caters ENTIRELY to the mainstream.  Everything must now be polished (which is the one good point) but it must also be ridiculously shallow, easy to understand, and convenient.

Personally, I have little to no hope or expectations for this next crop of MMOs, which is OK since Im fairly busy with RL right now.  But, maybe we'll see something interesting in the next few years as the "we're not WOW" MMOs start making their way to the shelves.

nariusseldon

I guess one man's trash is another man's treasure. The point you raised (instance, BG, quest-based grind, hack-n-slash, casual oriented) are all reasons why I *like* the current MMORPG landscape BETTER than before.

But even then, there are enough new & different MMORPGs coming out (Agent, Jumpgate Evolution, Stargate Worlds ...) that there may be something for you.

True that there will be no sandbox world. However, if you play SP games, you may as well play a MMORPG that cater to solo-ers with MORE polished content. The occasionally grouping with friends and the auction house type economics interaction are added bonuses.

punkrock

lol i love pvp but i dont fall under any of the stuff you just said my good sir! i just love pvp becouse its fun and i love war! that is all lol.

 

but the other stuff you said is true thou about the pve and the way the mmos are going.  i have been here since 04 as well. and nothing is really sticking out there for me anymore.

 

i am playing DAOC becouse i missed it but even in there the pvp has gone down some.

Kyleran

Lobo, I used to feel like you did. But more and more as I play EVE I find myself anticipating the new games less and less.  Not sure I even care if AOC is released, I'll buy it so my 15 year old son can play.

After a few slow months of Empire mission running, I joined a new corporation about 10 days ago, who suddenly joined a new, major alliance in 0.0 and we're all frantically mustering our gear and making ready for a jump back to the real fun part of EVE.

I'm all excited once again, but much better prepared.  When I first went out to 0.0, I had about 3 months training and could only tackle and rat drones.  I soon learned to fly stealth bombers but that was pretty much all the action I saw before returning to empire for a variety of reasons. (computer hardware failures, had to do some Research, and my old corp was in the wrong time zone for me)

Now I come back able to fly Sniping Battleships, man Deathstar guns, fly Heavy assault Cruisers, Interceptors, Recon and other ships, and this time, I promise, some folks are going to feel a lot of hurt when they attack us.

Suddenly, its like a whole new game, and I control my own destiny. Its really a great feeling, and I'm happy the way its worked out.

But also a word of caution, EVE isn't a game where you can easily control the flow of fun.  There are just some months that sort of blow, and you have to ride them out and set in place plans that will let you have more fun down the road.  More like real life I'm afraid, and not always full of fun 24/7.

 

Rinic

I'm in the same boat as Lobo. I just don't find games fun anymore. I enjoy grouping. I played FFXI for 4 years and loved it, I just don't have the time anymore.

 

I recently picked up eve about a month ago, I'm working toward all the pvp stuff right now, but I can't seem to play for that long at a time, it just gets boring going out and running missions in the empire. But I'm waiting it out in hopes that once I get a little more advancement in my character the pvp will never make me want to try something else.

 

 

AOC will flop, from what I've seen.

As will WAR.

 

Let's just hope Bioware isn't going to screw us over too.

Tiller

I agree with the OP, I was discussing this same thing just a few days ago. I’ve kinda lost interest in MMOs. I’m pretty much just here for discussions about games I may never play.

 

Back in 2004 I really had little interest in MMOs myself, but WoW sounded interesting to me and I had been watching it since they announced it. At the time I was into puzzle adventure games and Diablo 1-2. I really wanted to take a shot at the genera so I tried EQ1 but it didn’t really appeal to me much.  I saw SOE was also giving free trials of SWG around this time so I gave it a shot and ended up liking it a lot. I liked gaming with other people online but RPG turn based games weren’t really my flav, yet SWG made it seem so cool, and fun.

 

I had originally planned on waiting out my time in an MMO till WoW came along but ended up staying in SWG for its worldly appeal. I guess that game pretty much ruined my views of MMO since it was my first real MMO experience. Since then no other game in the industry has come close. Now I’m pretty much left with nothing I want to play.

 

As much as dislike the game now I still find myself reminiscing over the old days occasionally, but I’ve pretty much separated myself from the game in its current form because really they are 2 different games. I don’t really care if the game continues to run, shuts down, becomes the #1 game ect because I have no attachment to it.

 

I don’t know who is to blame for all this, or if SWG was just plain different or what, I don’t know. But I do know I am done wasting my money on MMO games till I find one similar to the one I liked playing.

 

It’s gonna get harder and harder for developers to lure players in to their new games since all they seem to offer now that's different is pretty graphics, shinnies and trinkets. Most MMO gamers have the game they already enjoy playing and the player pool is gonna get thinner and thinner. There is a playerbase out there though who are just wandering around, willing to shell out lots of money, play their game exclusively if they can make it the way we want but none seem interested in us. A lot of us would rather just play nothing, then something we hate.

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The user and all related content has been deleted.

TeflonEddie

Everyone complains about grinding in MMO's, but the truth is that every MMO is about grinding in one form or another. My measure of how good an MMO is is how well it incorporates the necessary grind into fun activities.

Elikal

I am surprised how many agree here. I feel inclined to say the same. I havent given up hope, but these days I find myself not playing MMOs most of the days. My own interest also has greatly vanished, and when none of the new MMOs in 2008 turn that I too will sooner or later leave MMOs entirely behind.

Making MMOs mass market was a two edged blade and it seems ppl like us sit in the wrong side of the blade. I enjoyed those tight knit communities from the "elder days", when SWG was new and my MMO career started. But the WOW-ization really brought us down. Now its all mediocre stuff which offends none but doesnt really thrill anyone either. It has become everyday business.

No magic, no wonder, no spirit of endeavor, but bean counters tailor-made their mass products. Maybe our hope lies in smaller companies products. But some good ones are still out there I have hope for, like Champions Online, Citadel of Sorcery. For AoC and WAR I too have less and less hope the more I hear, but I will give both a try. For me its mostly the old, tight communities are gone, and all games are fast food now.

For me the best MMO was my first, SWG. It shaped my expectations, to which none could stand. Maybe I am spoilt by SWG and its once vast possibilities.

But have faith. Didnt they say "this and this is at an end" on so many things? The end of PC era is been said to come since SEGA dreamcast, the death of RPGS before Baldurs Gate came, the death of Adventures and whatnot. Things have their seasons. We had a spring and summer of MMOs and now we have an arch downwards. But a new spring will come someday, I am sure. ^^

Rayalist

Originally posted by Fion



If all your doing is looking for that one perfect MMOG that will never and has never happened, your right, you will be wasting your time. Instead you could be thuroughly enjoying a MMOG that might not meet all your desires, but at least some of them.

Exactly! Unless you make the game yourself, there will never be a perfect game for you.

Also, Kyleran, which Alliance did your corporation join? My alliance got a couple new corps recently.

GreenChaos

Originally posted by Lobotomist


...
Where is the sandbox ? Where is community ? Where is roleplay ? Where is massive seamless world ?
...

 

In MUDs were they have always been.  Shame on anyone who though MMOs were the next step for MUDs.  They never had the pvp, roleplay and community MUDs have and they never will.

Ephimero

Seeing your last words, the MMO of the future is FF XII

Fucking grind rofl.

 

EDIT:

Auto-generated content=impossible

Devs wanting money and months subscriptions=of course

 

There you go, the grinding formula.

Black_Elvis

/signed

 

Games like EQ1 and WoW are great for the genre and also bad for them in the long term.  Like anything else in this world, much comes down to dollars and cents.  People see how WoW makes money.  So what do they do?  Make a WoW (or w/e) clone and hope to siphon off some business.  Its been the same thru all of history.  You open a tannery in the castle, I see you make money, I open a tannery in the castle... same shit different era.

Ultimately this equates to a stagnation of ideas rather than a constant evolution and refinement.  Someone WILL come along one day and come up with something new and revolutionary, however, for the time being games have become rather monotonous and the same old same old is what we are given to choose from.

On a personal note, I'm looking forward to Jumpgate Evolution, but only time will tell I guess.

Morgenes83

O.K. lets take out my crystal ball and look at the year 2010!

The year when Darkfall gets released!

A game that offers all to the oldschool players, we always have dreamed of.

Its like UO/EQ1 with good graphics! It has everything its the swiss army knife, the jack of all trades. (Vielleicht kann hier jemand eierlegende Wollmilchsau übersetzen? egglaying woolmilkpig?)

And what do we get then? Roxxorkids running around ganking newbies, writing shit in the chatchannels and destroying the flavor of this game! You only get groupinvites for the harder dungeons with imba item X or Y, or with some sort of skills.

-----------------------------

Or lets take a trouser leg into another future! Also 2010, also Darkfall release!

About 50% of the promised features got canceled. Dungeons are instanced now. The lowered the number of players on each server from 10000 to 5000, because the server crashed in Beta very often, as a result of overload. There is no Endcontent, many wide space with nothing on it except of some trees and some botanical, because they had to implement so much content for each race.

 

Imho there is a 49,9% chance for future #1, a 49,9% chance for future #2 and about 0,2% chance that somewhere along the way a game gets released, with many players and all of them are playing normal, means they are trying to play their char like he lives in this world. They dont have to roleplay at all cost. But respect them and try to avoid sentences like "My sword does 2 damage more than yours", "Have you seen the soccermatch last night", or something else from the general chat. There is no run to big boss of this game and if there is, those guys do it with some roleplay (Maybe two  clans doing a race) not just still grinding for weeks, just to announce it on the official forum, when your finished! Such a game would be fine, but i dont think that it will ever happen again.

Sorry for my bad english!

Briansho

Originally posted by GreenChaos

Originally posted by Lobotomist


...
Where is the sandbox ? Where is community ? Where is roleplay ? Where is massive seamless world ?
...

 

In MUDs were they have always been.  Shame on anyone who though MMOs were the next step for MUDs.  They never had the pvp, roleplay and community MUDs have and they never will.

I guess we are seeing now how people react to 2D/3D graphics especially when some developers make areas of a game look the same just a different color. Its like in Grandmas Boy when they changed the colors of the mobs on level 5 because players would be confused with the mobs on level 2. Adios Turdnuggets!

Czzarre

As Ive said before , we are in a MMORPG recession. HOnestly, I believe right now is the BEST time to lose interest and take a break. NOthing out there, easy to stay away , take a rest. By the time May comes around you may be ready for another grind.

Good Luck, dont be a stranger

Torrential

Ceredwynn

MMOs are much like Community-Based Websites. They both were this rapidly growing and evolving thing UNTIL a huge MMO/ Community Site would come along (e.g WoW or Myspace/Facebook) and stifle that whole flow. Large companies have been lacking since WoW came out and many don't want to tackle that MMO-Giant, but on the flip side this gave way for an explosion of smaller establishments /indie developers to produce many MMO styled games. There have been successes with Communities, Story Plots, Creativity with these games. Like I remember when FlyFF was gaining popularity during Beta and it grew hugely although the game is practically nonidentical to the game/gamplay from when i played it and lost alot of neat creative aspects its still fairly difference from anything out there. aside from the closest comparison being ROSE Online.

Part of the problem is technology, demands, and overall fear. lol developers for huge companies are scared of eminent failure which will occur if they can't bring the total package and lets get realistic. The standards and demands for a mediocre MMO are backbreaking. For something better than WoW, For something "New" (and i use the word 'new' vaguely) and be ontop of the technology at hand. its kind of a nightmare for the average developer and the only ones that would want to tackle this issue would have to have that "Labour Of Love" and not to mention that these developers get little gratitude for their efforts. just doesnt seem worth it does it. lol hell if this is that huge of a problem. get into video game developing and make the future for us. besides thats what i intend to do anyways.

talismen351

I am in the same boat. I have spent the past few years trying out games or returning to past games. Not much really has held me since I left UO in '04.  Altho I have little faith I will ever find a game as UO, I am willing to try the new ones. I will give AOC a shot n try the rest as they come along over the next year. I doubt I will stay in any for more than a month or two...but I at least try them.

It is a shame that Companies are all just going with the same ol tried n tested grinding/lvl/item based games. Totally giving up on the skill based game like UO, which had a far better community than any other game I ever played.

Everybody has to compete with the biggest, WoW, n as long as it stays that way I doubt we'll see a whole heck of a lot of change in the MMO worlds.

Anofalye

Take care.

 

The downfall of the massive aspect, it is the inability it has to respect small folks with logical evolution.  You want to progress, you need to PvP/RvR/Raid...well, it will bring the downfall of any "massive world" if needed, but there will be no need to do any of these gameplays...unless you want to be good in these gameplays.  If you want to build a castle, you must first start with the foundation...and in MMOs, the foundations are soloing/grouping.

 

The only way you can justify to enforce a gameplay on someone, it is if that person want to be good at it.  You want to be a good soloer?  You can force that person to solo.  You want to be a good grouper?  You can force that person to group.  You want to be good at PvP?  You can force that person to PvP.  But you cannot force someone to solo if he want to be good at groups.  You cannot force someone to group if he want to be good at PvP.  And so on.  You can either give every reward in every gameplays...or make sure that everything someone in a gameplay may want for that gameplay, he can earn inside of said gameplay.

 

If someone doesn't care if he is good at a precise gameplay or not (Raiding/PvP/RvR/Solo/Group/Tradeskills), you cannot request that player to play this gameplay, which he doesn't even cares about!  You can ask someone to do what he want to be good at, but you cannot ask them to do something else...

Kyleran

Originally posted by Rayalist


 
Originally posted by Fion



If all your doing is looking for that one perfect MMOG that will never and has never happened, your right, you will be wasting your time. Instead you could be thuroughly enjoying a MMOG that might not meet all your desires, but at least some of them.

 

Exactly! Unless you make the game yourself, there will never be a perfect game for you.

Also, Kyleran, which Alliance did your corporation join? My alliance got a couple new corps recently.

I'll have to let you know after its all completed.  Being the typical paranoid EVE player, I don't want to give away any intel that might result in our convoys out to 0.0 running into a massive gate camp waiting for us.

nethervoid

This exact thread has been revolving since the EQ days, and probably before that.  In fact, I think the old AOL NWNers were all teary-eyed in the UO days that their NWN was pretty much dead, and how UO wasn't the game they wanted to play.

MMOs come and go.  Every once in awhile a really good one comes out.  IMO, the golden age of MMOs, with all the new concepts and innovation, is over.  Copy copy copy has been the way of things for a long while now, pretty much since EQ.

But I also see some games coming out which are trying to get away from the EQ model, and more into a mesh of pvp and pve, etc.  That's a good thing.

The MMO industry is a juggernaut, and never changes quick enough to keep everyone happy.  It's just the way it is.  Eventually you'll come back to MMOs.  Us old timers know how you feel.    You'll be back.

ianubisi

Can I have your stuff?

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Neanderthal

I go through cycles of pessimism and optimism about the future of mmorpgs.  But as time passes I find myself feeling pessimistic more often and optimistic less often and in shorter bursts.  I guess I haven't completely given up hope or wouldn't still be reading and talking about MMORPGs.  Although I think a big part of the reason I still yak about this crap is just because I've gotten in the habit.

I've done my rant about the death of the dream of creating virtual world games.  I'm sure I've done it more than once.  I think the problem is that nobody gives a damn except a relatively few of us who genuinely expected MMORPGs to evolve naturally in that direction.  Most people seem content with linear, disposable content, treadmill type games.

I honestly don't know if I could ever stomach another treadmill game again.  It's just so f--king stupid.  Scratch and claw for experience to gain a level so you can scratch and claw for experience to gain the next level and on and on untill you run out of levels and then you grind, grind, grind for gear so that you can use your new gear to grind, grind, grind for the next gear upgrade.  And all along the way, if you ever stop to think about it, you realize that you're doing almost exactly the same thing at your latest level as you were doing at level 1, the numbers just got bigger is all that changed.  You basically start over again at level 1 every time you gain a level, you just move to new area where the numbers are bigger.

I can tolerate it if the gameplay itself is fun enough but I've almost come to the conclusion that mmorpg developers don't even try to make gameplay fun.  I think they just slap some sh-t together and rely on the lure of levels and loot to keep people going.  Hell, if the gameplay was fun enough for it's own sake then they wouldn't need the crutch of levels and loot to keep people hooked.

Oh well, whatever.  I just went off on a rant again even though I know it will do absolutely no good at all.  Force of habit I guess.  

keotsu

Gamers need to talk about what is Great in games, or what they would rather have.

Example:

Star wars galaxies

Pros - None, not anymore.

cons, everything about the game(big steamy pile) , the players that play it(the little speck on top of the steamy pile trying to decieve themselves into believing its still playable),  and the developer/company that maintains it (the orafice from whence it came)

City of Heroes 

Pros

Great environment, police sirens, cars driving by, the wind, birds, citizens gettin mugged.

Fantastic auction house called wentworths it's great, you can see what the last 5 people paid for the item your trying to sell before you price it, the people buying have to bid until they win the item but they dont see a price. this way people can sometimes make more for thier item and if you spend too much for it, be more careful next time.

Cons

No gear in game, or very little, powers and enhancements mainly

its great that thier are millions of costume combinations and choices, problem is all the choices are lame.

the zones are too small, even the large ones are small. there are no nooks and crannies to explore.

overall the game is too easy to play, easy to learn, easy to play, easy to max a character, too easy. and if you get help from friends, its remedial, great for 12 year olds only.

--------------------------------------------------

Everquest 1 and 2.

Pro

well there are alot, BUT when you first load it up and log in, if you have played before, you can not overcome the feeling ive done all this before and im not going to invest my life the way i did before. If it's all new to you and you havent played before, you quickly realize its too much to learn, too much to invest of your time, and you will never be more than mediocre cuase someone else is running around looking leet and you will never get the gorups you need to get the gear you may want. you tell yourself i can just craft or roleplay and enjoy the little things but that gets old fast too.

---------------------------------------------------

anarchy online

Alot of pros in my opinion - mission terminals, instanced missions. ratings for zones wehre you can play safely and mayhem zones where you can risk venturing for that thrill of gettin to a mission without gettin killed. tons of outfits for roleplaying, environments that encourage it, bars, stores, burger stands.

gear with quality levels, so that you can upgrade every level if you want to.

210 levels i think been awhile since i played, so alot of work to max out on level

wonder skill system base on your abilities. if i pick opifex(race of character) i have high agi dex, so my abilities that use agi dex like sniper rifle, are cheaper to spend points on, but i can use two handed blunt but it will be exspensive to use. so i would lose some points for things like cloaking etc.

Gearing up in AO is fanstastic, i can get buffs to get higher implants in, that give me more agi dex, so i can get that next sniper rifle i want on my agent, buffs stack, different classes have different buffs,

SCI FI GAME huge bonus, was damn tired of orcs and elfs.

mainly the only reason i quit, i ruined my guild heh. everyone hated me, as a leader of the guild i was in i had to fire one of the popular leaders, and half the people quit, wasnt even my choice, the other leaders wanted him fired or they were going to quit with half the people. damn guild politics. No matter what i did it was doomed.

tons of vehicles, water vehicles, ground vehicles, flying cars, hoverboards, i even think couple character classes can fly.

also classes, doctor, soldier, beaurocrat, engineer, agent, enforcer, at least they were not - paladin, rogue, cleric, wizard, blah....nausiating.

cons

huge zones, but still with flying cars too small to leave anything to be discovered.

was horribly bugged from start, and i dont think it ever recovered...

too many expansions...

funcom added content instead of polishing what it already had.

not very good environment, not enough sounds and noises kinda quiet walking around.

they needed to improve the amount of experience gained from completing missions.

needed to improve the look of the gear, you spend 80 levels looking like a hobo, then 50 levels looking decent but still gimp, then 50 levels starting to feel better about how you look and last 30 levels feeling elite, like you got the best looking gear in game, till you goto town and see everyone else with your gear on.

------------------------------------------------

last contestant ....World of Warcraft. ( i dont even want to post anything about it )

pros

Wow has nice graphics, smooth game play, fun battlegrounds, plenty going on around the world to be immersive, lots to see, cool gear sets, if you can get it. im sure there are 1500 other things that also serve to please.

Cons

in my opinion these are the Huge ones.

SO WHAT....its orcs and elfs... and i got 65 levels in 15 days, and i was done with it. its 2008 and we live in a world where entire worlds can be created and we cant even make a game that puts the gamer in a futuristic environment, and still cant make a game that people can change the world they are living in.

Here is what has to be DONE...

Certain cultures take things from around the world and make it thier own(cough* the japanese* cough)

why cant someone take all the good, and work it out into a game.

i know what i have to have in a game.

Has to have gear, has to be huge world, has to have a living environment, has to allow the player to alter his world. has to be skill based that doesnt take hours to learn, just use, first few abilites are easy to gain, but it gets slower as it goes up. dialog with npcs has to be interactive, and they have to speak up, i want interaction not a reading assignment. No orcs, No elfs, no dwarfs etc. characters are mutually exclusive, you cant give gear to your noob character, one character one account, dont like your guy delete and start over or go screw yourself. more options for appearance, i hate the asian games and thier 4 hair-dos, 4 options this 4 options that. blah...ill pay, no free to play, subscription is fine, if its worth it. the character should have more than 6 to 10 gear slots, i want 20 slots, maybe 40 slots, i want sci fi game so having a ton of slots is imaginable, since i can wear a t-shirt, with sweater over it, with flak jacket, with body armor over it and a tranchcoat to top it off, then i have pockets to store stuff in each one, screw backpacks, give me gear with the ability to hold stuff, i want to keep my pocket knife in my pocket, wear a watch, have sunglasses, carry my money in my wallet. have a 9mm under each armpit, have a knife in my boot.

Im spent...this was my first post, and only on mmorpg.com, i like this site, but reading stuff here is inspiring and frustrating at same time. i jsut wanted to share something of my feelings. maybe someone can make use of it.

Jkati - recovering mmorpg addict...i need a new drug.