I lost my interest in MMO's ... there I said it.... Since 2004 I am regular member of this forums. I played and tried everything , and i followed and took part ( community wise ) in most of MMOs in development. I seen this form of gaming blossom and vain. And waited and waited and waited for the MMO messiah to come... but all what i seen was chain of disapointments. I am sure many of you feel this way... And now 2008 , on the edge of final release of AOC and WAR it hits me... This games are nothing like what 2004 mmo fan expected 2008 mmo would be
Where is the sandbox ? Where is community ? Where is roleplay ? Where is massive seamless world ? It is replaced by Instanced , battleground , grind , linear , limited , l337.
The new word is not community , group , simulation , open ended ... no The new word is how to bring singleplayer experience into multiplayer game.
But why do i need that ? Singleplayer RPG's allready give me that in better way. Minus grind and minus sub... Lack of content hidden by mandatory grind and raid...i am getting bored
Couple this with having no more than 10 hours to play weekly. When it seems to me that MMO design is targeted at population that has time and time on their hands...students, unemployed, stay home mom's.
Where is the world for us , the working class ?
And how about community ? From one side we have the PVP crowd - that for some unfortunate reason draws (among others) emotionally chalenged , social misfits - that find the MMO to be sole medium of exercising their frustration and hate. And on the otherside the PVE crowd - that for some reason attracts stay home mom and dad , emo poets and people that confuse MMOs with My Space ... And me ... for all my non-perfection , my visit to MMO community made me worse - bitter ...
And to make all this worse. Is there anything on horizon that will change MMOs for better ?
AOC ? WAR ? ... Aion ? Just a same ol'grind
Sandbox is abandoned concept. Virtual world is abandoned concept.
The mmo of the future are singleplayer games in multiplayer enviroment with added grind ...
I had enough ....
Dude, you summed it up PERFECTLY. Thankyou.
Seriously, Thankyou. I could not have put it better myself. For the longest time I thought original SWG spoiled me, but the reality is that few mmo's ever were sandboxy like that. EVERYTHING now is just like you said, a damned single-player RPG with a subscription fee and a grind.
Yuk. I am passing on AOC and WAR. And you know what, I was absolutely contemplating playing AOC just because of the "ooh it's a new mmo" factor, but now I'm definitely not, and I'm sure many of those that feel like us will end up getting it and quitting before the first month.
All of these dev teams with lack of imagination trying to make the cookie-cutter mmo. Grind Grind Grind, bore bore bore.
Onto the next thing. I want to feel that excitement again the first time I stepped in a sandbox mmo world (swg, the original version at least). I want the randomness again. TO HELL WITH THE ASSEMBLY LINE GRIND MMO'S.
Couple this with having no more than 10 hours to play weekly. When it seems to me that MMO design is targeted at population that has time and time on their hands...students, unemployed, stay home mom's.
once it was and games were great, now it is surly aiming at casuals like u and games suck. u just have 10hrs a week? ok stick with SinglePlayer RPG there is some great stuff out there and with ur limited playtime u can have fun for month with em.
Here is where you error. The games may suck for you, but great for us casuals. Now since casuals are obviously the BIGGER part of the market, we will be catered to.
And if we want to spend that 10 hours to play a MMORPG instead of SP RPGs and we vote with our dollars, there is really nothing you can do about it.
Lobo, I used to feel like you did. But more and more as I play EVE I find myself anticipating the new games less and less. Not sure I even care if AOC is released, I'll buy it so my 15 year old son can play. After a few slow months of Empire mission running, I joined a new corporation about 10 days ago, who suddenly joined a new, major alliance in 0.0 and we're all frantically mustering our gear and making ready for a jump back to the real fun part of EVE. I'm all excited once again, but much better prepared. When I first went out to 0.0, I had about 3 months training and could only tackle and rat drones. I soon learned to fly stealth bombers but that was pretty much all the action I saw before returning to empire for a variety of reasons. (computer hardware failures, had to do some Research, and my old corp was in the wrong time zone for me) Now I come back able to fly Sniping Battleships, man Deathstar guns, fly Heavy assault Cruisers, Interceptors, Recon and other ships, and this time, I promise, some folks are going to feel a lot of hurt when they attack us. Suddenly, its like a whole new game, and I control my own destiny. Its really a great feeling, and I'm happy the way its worked out. But also a word of caution, EVE isn't a game where you can easily control the flow of fun. There are just some months that sort of blow, and you have to ride them out and set in place plans that will let you have more fun down the road. More like real life I'm afraid, and not always full of fun 24/7.
Yeah, that's EVE. The game you start playing 3 months after you start.
I am talking from a biased point of view as a online fps nut and a huge planetside fan.
Let me explain, plx bear with me,
The reason I like online fps is the fact that player skill and teamwork is what matters and luck, but on the downside you only have at the very most 64 people per server and also there is real char progression.
I also lke non FPS games such as MMOs and RTS, both online and offline ofcourse.
Offline games don't have the teamwork or the player skill like online, a computer bot is never as fun so the story is much more important.
By going down the story route for MMOs you are doomed to fail, it is very hard to make a indepth story last the life of an mmo and as said i am biased but story isnt my main thing, lets face it storys in games arent renound for being brilliant. the point is you cant make em as fast as people can complete them.
So with the pretty basic combat system and no story we get good old grind,
the obvious and ultimate conlusion we an draw is that we need some kind of MMORPG/FPS game, not puerly FPS but with a real leveling system similar to a normal rpg.
It will have all the elements of a normal RPG so dont worry there would be no loss but it wold lose the grind, It would improve PVE and PVP, it would still be highly based on level but not puerly, there would be a litle more luk/skill involved.
i think it is inevitable. it is history repeating. fps games are popular, they simply wernt made till later on due to tech limitations. sam for mmofps, it is hard to get a 1000 man real scale war.
Anyways MMOs are going to the consoles and as much as it pains me to say it PC gaming is getting a smaller %, not that that means less pc gamers, just a crap load more consolers.
You dont get that many RPG games on consoles, people also like realistic movement and aiming, look at the wii, I think we are going to see this soon.
I would love to see more sandboc style mmos but looking at the current market my way is the more likely outocome, atleast it will detrat from the shallowness.
PS, I reckon we can count on NCSoft, they have the WoW clone with Aion, those guys like to make games like err ... Koreans. Maybe Lineage 3 or now Eve and Whitewolf are one, they will make something crazy. You know I keep my Eve sub going to balance out the guilt for paying Blizzard for WoW.
I have never played a sandbox game so this is just from looking and reading about them. Sandbox looked like it was mostly about grinding. Ill use SWG for example- to get rifle skill up go kill things with a rifle. Thats a grind. Now please if there are non-sandbox games like this tell me, but it seems like to be sandbox where you rank up a skill by using it is grinding. So calling out grind as bad seems ironic.
As for now ill take the class system for the RvR WAR is offering. But if another major PVE game comes along i really want sandbox.
Hold on Snow Leopard, imma let you finish, but Windows had one of the best operating systems of all time.
If the Powerball lottery was like Lotro, nobody would win for 2 years, and then everyone in Nebraska would win on the same day. And then Nebraska would get nerfed.-pinkwood lotro fourms
AMD 4800 2.4ghz-3GB RAM 533mhz-EVGA 9500GT 512mb-320gb HD
Originally posted by Lobotomist Couple this with having no more than 10 hours to play weekly. When it seems to me that MMO design is targeted at population that has time and time on their hands...students, unemployed, stay home mom's.
once it was and games were great, now it is surly aiming at casuals like u and games suck. u just have 10hrs a week? ok stick with SinglePlayer RPG there is some great stuff out there and with ur limited playtime u can have fun for month with em.
Here is where you error. The games may suck for you, but great for us casuals. Now since casuals are obviously the BIGGER part of the market, we will be catered to.
And if we want to spend that 10 hours to play a MMORPG instead of SP RPGs and we vote with our dollars, there is really nothing you can do about it.
if u think mmorpgs today are great iam happy for u but i doubt. i was actually referring to the OP complaining about the quality of mmorpgs and stating that he wants more casual content. imo casual content ruined the genre, its fun for 2month max but not more. the OP turned "hardcore" without realizing it, and he is complaining at the wrong end.i still think that hardcores are the key to sucess in mmorpgs... WoW is phenomenom and cant be genarelized. all other MMORPGs cleary show that that hardcore players are the ppl who keep games up for years.
You'll be back.. They all come back . I have no MMO now either but I still continue to visit in hopes of something... Maybe I will atleast give Rohan a chance so I don't have to spend money until I see something interesting again.
Originally posted by Arndur I have never played a sandbox game so this is just from looking and reading about them. Sandbox looked like it was mostly about grinding. Ill use SWG for example- to get rifle skill up go kill things with a rifle. Thats a grind. Now please if there are non-sandbox games like this tell me, but it seems like to be sandbox where you rank up a skill by using it is grinding. So calling out grind as bad seems ironic. As for now ill take the class system for the RvR WAR is offering. But if another major PVE game comes along i really want sandbox.
Any mmorpg, regardless of the system employed, can be a dull grind. A pure sandbox game is Second Life for instance, which has no grind at all.
Now the other types might have some 'grind' as you call it but its what you make of it. Myself, I like playing original games and seeing their content. I hate all these 'kill x quests' and all those rare loot drop quests-
"Hey vajuras go kill some bunnies and bring me back 50 rabbit feet'
And what do you know, the rabbit feet is a 5% chance to drop.
Any mmorpg can be an intensive grind if the devs wish it. Has nothing to do with levels or skill-based per se. We have levels and such oin FPS games and those arent grindy
Originally posted by dawn3000 actually i think MMORPGs are the cheapest gaming genre. 15$ a month is nothing if u compare it to the time u spend in em. u can beat almost every single player game in 2weeks and will never touch it again.
Ah, nope.
My favorite SP games like Deus Ex, Morrowind and Oblivion have so many mods and all, that a MMO would be dead and gone by the time the modders stop modding those SP games!!!!
Costs nothing but the original game, even!
Deus Ex has been out since 2000. The HDTP Project (revamping the game from 2000 graphics to 2008 standards), is still being made to this day. Deus Ex is a game you replay 100+x through. Have gigabytes of saved games alone, all so I can go back and reply the good parts and just have some good cyberpunk fun.
Zero MP. Zero PvP. Zero chit chat hogwash to take the immersion away. Zero $$ spent to be abused by 15 year-old pimp butted loudmouth micro ePeened brats.
Any mmorpg, regardless of the system employed, can be a dull grind. A pure sandbox game is Second Life for instance, which has no grind at all. Now the other types might have some 'grind' as you call it but its what you make of it. Myself, I like playing original games and seeing their content. I hate all these 'kill x quests' and all those rare loot drop quests- "Hey vajuras go kill some bunnies and bring me back 50 rabbit feet' And what do you know, the rabbit feet is a 5% chance to drop.
Any mmorpg can be an intensive grind if the devs wish it. Has nothing to do with levels or skill-based per se. We have levels and such oin FPS games and those arent grindy
Thats a good point, vajuras. As much as I hate class/level systems and as much as I prefer skill based systems I'd have to admit that neither is inherently "grindy". I do think that class/level systems have a good head start in that direction, however, there are plenty of class/level based RPG's that are not grindy.
Anyway, this is why I'm still curious about a "zero" progression based RPG. I think VW's like Second Life might be half way there, you just need to add the character, stat, and game elements to the equation.
Any mmorpg, regardless of the system employed, can be a dull grind. A pure sandbox game is Second Life for instance, which has no grind at all. Now the other types might have some 'grind' as you call it but its what you make of it. Myself, I like playing original games and seeing their content. I hate all these 'kill x quests' and all those rare loot drop quests- "Hey vajuras go kill some bunnies and bring me back 50 rabbit feet' And what do you know, the rabbit feet is a 5% chance to drop.
Any mmorpg can be an intensive grind if the devs wish it. Has nothing to do with levels or skill-based per se. We have levels and such oin FPS games and those arent grindy
Thats a good point, vajuras. As much as I hate class/level systems and as much as I prefer skill based systems I'd have to admit that neither is inherently "grindy". I do think that class/level systems have a good head start in that direction, however, there are plenty of class/level based RPG's that are not grindy. Anyway, this is why I'm still curious about a "zero" progression based RPG. I think VW's like Second Life might be half way there, you just need to add the character, stat, and game elements to the equation.
Yeah I'm in total agreement with you here. I'm actually a proponent of "no" progression just like you describe. Closest thing I've ever found was Starport (2d mmo) which I enjoyed very much.
There was still some progression acquiring new ships but it all felt so lightweight.
hey Tatum I didnt want to get off track here in this thread so I made a blog here at mmorpg.com---> No Progression mmorpg
I'd love to have you stop by. I want to exchange some ideas with other sandbox players/designers.
The problem isn't exactly the grinding. The problem is how all of these non-sandbox games have such a fixed progression. There is zero randomness. There is zero uniqueness between players. "OK, lets level a paladin, now lets do it just like everyone else on the server already has, and lets get the exact same weapon everyone else did with the exact same stats and lets pick the exact same spec because there this one works best for pvp".
No, that's not fun at all. Random is fun. Suprises are fun. Predictability sucks, and MMO's today are so predictable with their progression it isn't funny. There are zero curveballs because devs and management teams don't want to risk their curveball blowing up in their face and losing them money. They all want to play it safe and follow WoW's blueprint.
Snoozefest.
And at the end of the day everyone is just a carbon copy of the next guy that is playing the class.
I'd like another MMO to come out where the next guy is different from me, at least in the slightest. Character Uniqueness is a key component of an MMO.
Most people get tired of their hobbies over time and move on to a new one. Its actually a natural progression of age. I've gone through several different hobbies in my 53 years. You just enjoy the one your with and look around for the next one when things start to get boring. Or take a break and fall back on an old stand by (like reading books) while you wait for something to fall on you.
The new word is not community , group , simulation , open ended ... no The new word is how to bring singleplayer experience into multiplayer game. But why do i need that ? Singleplayer RPG's allready give me that in better way. Minus grind and minus sub...
Interesting post, and mostly very agreeable.. except the statements above. It appears from your post that you are an advocate of forced grouping mechanics and such, with the typical reasoning that "if you didnt want to play co-operative with me, then why are you playing a multiplayer game?".
That line of thinking is flawed, because besides the fact that it invalidates most crafters as players (most if not all mmos are solo crafting, that are not niche games like tale in the desert or roma victor). It is also flawed to think of mmorpg as being a cooperative multiplayer game.. it is not. MMORPG is about existing in a persistent world, in which other human players may or may not being doing their own things. Sure adventuring together can be one aspect of mmo social play.. but so is the virtual economy, crafters, explorers, harvesters, and any number of things one can do in mmos that dont involve grouping up.
The notion of mmorpg = forced groups is the same notion as "no one wants to group with me because i am perhaps antisocial or just not very good socially, therefore the game should force people to do so so i dont have to make an effort to socialize and form bonds with my peers to find partners to adventure with."
Wanting forced grouping is more anti social than not wanting it.
(note that that doesnt mean I am for having uber-dragon-of-total-doom be soloable by joe the warrior.. there needs to be reasons to want to socialize and group, of course, because although the idea of doing it for the sake of social interaction and not killing some elite is the correct idea, most of you only care about getting elitemob's sword of ultimate iWin)
We are in the twilight of the Publishers and the dawn of the Indies in regards to MMO's.
Granted, that Indies lack the resources of the larger companies, and so take longer to develop. But in the near future, the publishers will get blind-sided.
Follow the progression of Audio and Video over the Internet. Music companies are trying to survive by pumping out packaged trash, into a dying retail market. Video companies are following suit. After them is multi-media; and finally this will happen to computer games.
Rule of Thumb, Audio is the trend setter. What happens to the audio market will impact the rest in time.
So no giving up on MMO's as a whole. We're still in the ages of Silent Films.
And that is why...
Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.
I'm gonna laugh my fool butt off if Blizzard's next MMO is a sandbox style game and gets about 10 million subs. I'm smiling inside just thinking about it now. Probably won't happen, but I can dream... LOL
I lost my interest in MMO's ... there I said it.... Since 2004 I am regular member of this forums. I played and tried everything , and i followed and took part ( community wise ) in most of MMOs in development. I seen this form of gaming blossom and vain. And waited and waited and waited for the MMO messiah to come... but all what i seen was chain of disapointments. I am sure many of you feel this way... And now 2008 , on the edge of final release of AOC and WAR it hits me... This games are nothing like what 2004 mmo fan expected 2008 mmo would be
Where is the sandbox ? Where is community ? Where is roleplay ? Where is massive seamless world ? It is replaced by Instanced , battleground , grind , linear , limited , l337.
The new word is not community , group , simulation , open ended ... no The new word is how to bring singleplayer experience into multiplayer game.
But why do i need that ? Singleplayer RPG's allready give me that in better way. Minus grind and minus sub... Lack of content hidden by mandatory grind and raid...i am getting bored
Couple this with having no more than 10 hours to play weekly. When it seems to me that MMO design is targeted at population that has time and time on their hands...students, unemployed, stay home mom's.
Where is the world for us , the working class ?
And how about community ? From one side we have the PVP crowd - that for some unfortunate reason draws (among others) emotionally chalenged , social misfits - that find the MMO to be sole medium of exercising their frustration and hate. And on the otherside the PVE crowd - that for some reason attracts stay home mom and dad , emo poets and people that confuse MMOs with My Space ... And me ... for all my non-perfection , my visit to MMO community made me worse - bitter ...
And to make all this worse. Is there anything on horizon that will change MMOs for better ?
AOC ? WAR ? ... Aion ? Just a same ol'grind
Sandbox is abandoned concept. Virtual world is abandoned concept.
The mmo of the future are singleplayer games in multiplayer enviroment with added grind ...
I had enough ....
Dude I totaly agree, gaming just hasnt been the same lately, with every area of gaming mashing together with others creating a lack of interesting concepts, and taking the MM out of MMO.
Lobo, while I disagree with your thesis, I've found your posts to be thoughtful and valued.
If you're not COMPLETELY done with MMOs, might I suggest Battleground Europe: WWII Online. It is a game that is virtually the opposite of every complaint you have:
1). Mature PvP community, and a very active community
2). It is a seamless virtual Europe at 1/2 scale. Not battlegrounds or instancing at all.
3). Gameplay is almost entirely based on personal skill. No grinding to get leet gear, or leet levels. It's just you and the enemy you have in your sights.
4). The game is quite challenging. Even vets who've been playing for years still die. A lot. And to 'green tags' (new players).
5). The game supports both a hardcore and casual playstyle really well. If you want quick action, you simply find out where the main attacks are happening, spawn in. If you want something more challenging, you can spawn in a town or two back from the front lines, drive your tank to flank the enemy town and cut off his supply line. Or join a paratroop mission and parachute into combat.
6). Be warned. Loosing happens in this game. If you can't take loosing, and can't admit that the dude that just killed you had the drop on you, you will be frustrated; it's best you go back to games where you can't loose.
7). Morale of your side is important and sways the actual numbers of players online on both sides. It is both a cool and frustrating aspect of this game. If your side's numbers are down due to poor morale, you just have to suck it up or join those who aren't logging in.
8). Finally, if you do decide to try out WWII Online, you'll find the actual game forums to be interesting at times, informative at times, but most of all filled with propaganda from each side. In other words, don't believe anything any side says about itself or the enemy. Trust that the Developers (called Rats) want and need a balanced game, and that they best know how to achieve it.
Good luck Lobo in whatever you do.
_____________________________ Currently Playing: LOTRO; DDO Played: AC2, AO, Auto Assault, CoX, DAoC, DDO, Earth&Beyond, EQ1, EQ2, EVE, Fallen Earth, Jumpgate, Roma Victor, Second Life, SWG, V:SoH, WoW, World War II Online.
Games I'm watching: Infinity: The Quest for Earth, Force of Arms.
The problem isn't exactly the grinding. The problem is how all of these non-sandbox games have such a fixed progression. There is zero randomness.
And without it, we get 1001 campers trying to get the best loot, as there's 1001 online best loot maps to show them (no more mysteries in games now -- walkthroughs are everywhere).
What would be ideal is that random NPCs (with random stats, so players who see a dragon, won't use their usual anti-dragon setup to defeat it), will popup anywhere in the wilderness. It could be a level 100 beast, to a level 1 rat, but the level 100 beast could have the stats of the level 1 rat (enticing the player to want to engage in combat, as there is a chance even a newbie could take it down for the XP and drops), and vice versa.
Do away with spawn points. Make beasts random top down. That'll make the need to have PvP not even needed (as folks PvP now because they're so bored of the NPC spawn points and the same tiring ways to kill NPCs).
Comments
Dude, you summed it up PERFECTLY. Thankyou.
Seriously, Thankyou. I could not have put it better myself. For the longest time I thought original SWG spoiled me, but the reality is that few mmo's ever were sandboxy like that. EVERYTHING now is just like you said, a damned single-player RPG with a subscription fee and a grind.
Yuk. I am passing on AOC and WAR. And you know what, I was absolutely contemplating playing AOC just because of the "ooh it's a new mmo" factor, but now I'm definitely not, and I'm sure many of those that feel like us will end up getting it and quitting before the first month.
All of these dev teams with lack of imagination trying to make the cookie-cutter mmo. Grind Grind Grind, bore bore bore.
Onto the next thing. I want to feel that excitement again the first time I stepped in a sandbox mmo world (swg, the original version at least). I want the randomness again. TO HELL WITH THE ASSEMBLY LINE GRIND MMO'S.
Here is where you error. The games may suck for you, but great for us casuals. Now since casuals are obviously the BIGGER part of the market, we will be catered to.
And if we want to spend that 10 hours to play a MMORPG instead of SP RPGs and we vote with our dollars, there is really nothing you can do about it.
Yeah, that's EVE. The game you start playing 3 months after you start.
I do not share you enthusiasm for Eve. it was horrible experience with long periods of boredom. I wanted that I would watch paint dry
I am talking from a biased point of view as a online fps nut and a huge planetside fan.
Let me explain, plx bear with me,
The reason I like online fps is the fact that player skill and teamwork is what matters and luck, but on the downside you only have at the very most 64 people per server and also there is real char progression.
I also lke non FPS games such as MMOs and RTS, both online and offline ofcourse.
Offline games don't have the teamwork or the player skill like online, a computer bot is never as fun so the story is much more important.
By going down the story route for MMOs you are doomed to fail, it is very hard to make a indepth story last the life of an mmo and as said i am biased but story isnt my main thing, lets face it storys in games arent renound for being brilliant. the point is you cant make em as fast as people can complete them.
So with the pretty basic combat system and no story we get good old grind,
the obvious and ultimate conlusion we an draw is that we need some kind of MMORPG/FPS game, not puerly FPS but with a real leveling system similar to a normal rpg.
It will have all the elements of a normal RPG so dont worry there would be no loss but it wold lose the grind, It would improve PVE and PVP, it would still be highly based on level but not puerly, there would be a litle more luk/skill involved.
i think it is inevitable. it is history repeating. fps games are popular, they simply wernt made till later on due to tech limitations. sam for mmofps, it is hard to get a 1000 man real scale war.
Anyways MMOs are going to the consoles and as much as it pains me to say it PC gaming is getting a smaller %, not that that means less pc gamers, just a crap load more consolers.
You dont get that many RPG games on consoles, people also like realistic movement and aiming, look at the wii, I think we are going to see this soon.
I would love to see more sandboc style mmos but looking at the current market my way is the more likely outocome, atleast it will detrat from the shallowness.
PS, I reckon we can count on NCSoft, they have the WoW clone with Aion, those guys like to make games like err ... Koreans.
Maybe Lineage 3 or now Eve and Whitewolf are one, they will make something crazy. You know I keep my Eve sub going to balance out the guilt for paying Blizzard for WoW.
Lobo, the future draws nigh...
http://www.gametrailers.com/player/6400.html
"The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion." -Edmund Burke
Who will rise up for me against the evildoers? or who will stand up for me against the workers of iniquity?"
(Psalm 94:16)
I have never played a sandbox game so this is just from looking and reading about them. Sandbox looked like it was mostly about grinding. Ill use SWG for example- to get rifle skill up go kill things with a rifle. Thats a grind. Now please if there are non-sandbox games like this tell me, but it seems like to be sandbox where you rank up a skill by using it is grinding. So calling out grind as bad seems ironic.
As for now ill take the class system for the RvR WAR is offering. But if another major PVE game comes along i really want sandbox.
Hold on Snow Leopard, imma let you finish, but Windows had one of the best operating systems of all time.
If the Powerball lottery was like Lotro, nobody would win for 2 years, and then everyone in Nebraska would win on the same day.
And then Nebraska would get nerfed.-pinkwood lotro fourms
AMD 4800 2.4ghz-3GB RAM 533mhz-EVGA 9500GT 512mb-320gb HD
Here is where you error. The games may suck for you, but great for us casuals. Now since casuals are obviously the BIGGER part of the market, we will be catered to.
And if we want to spend that 10 hours to play a MMORPG instead of SP RPGs and we vote with our dollars, there is really nothing you can do about it.
if u think mmorpgs today are great iam happy for u but i doubt. i was actually referring to the OP complaining about the quality of mmorpgs and stating that he wants more casual content.
imo casual content ruined the genre, its fun for 2month max but not more. the OP turned "hardcore" without realizing it, and he is complaining at the wrong end.i still think that hardcores are the key to sucess in mmorpgs... WoW is phenomenom and cant be genarelized. all other MMORPGs cleary show that that hardcore players are the ppl who keep games up for years.
You'll be back.. They all come back
. I have no MMO now either but I still continue to visit in hopes of something... Maybe I will atleast give Rohan a chance so I don't have to spend money until I see something interesting again.
~Greatness~
Currently Playing:
Nothing
Any mmorpg, regardless of the system employed, can be a dull grind. A pure sandbox game is Second Life for instance, which has no grind at all.
Now the other types might have some 'grind' as you call it but its what you make of it. Myself, I like playing original games and seeing their content. I hate all these 'kill x quests' and all those rare loot drop quests-
"Hey vajuras go kill some bunnies and bring me back 50 rabbit feet'
And what do you know, the rabbit feet is a 5% chance to drop.
Any mmorpg can be an intensive grind if the devs wish it. Has nothing to do with levels or skill-based per se. We have levels and such oin FPS games and those arent grindy
Ah, nope.
My favorite SP games like Deus Ex, Morrowind and Oblivion have so many mods and all, that a MMO would be dead and gone by the time the modders stop modding those SP games!!!!
Costs nothing but the original game, even!
Deus Ex has been out since 2000. The HDTP Project (revamping the game from 2000 graphics to 2008 standards), is still being made to this day. Deus Ex is a game you replay 100+x through. Have gigabytes of saved games alone, all so I can go back and reply the good parts and just have some good cyberpunk fun.
Zero MP.
Zero PvP.
Zero chit chat hogwash to take the immersion away.
Zero $$ spent to be abused by 15 year-old pimp butted loudmouth micro ePeened brats.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
Thats a good point, vajuras. As much as I hate class/level systems and as much as I prefer skill based systems I'd have to admit that neither is inherently "grindy". I do think that class/level systems have a good head start in that direction, however, there are plenty of class/level based RPG's that are not grindy.
Anyway, this is why I'm still curious about a "zero" progression based RPG. I think VW's like Second Life might be half way there, you just need to add the character, stat, and game elements to the equation.
Yeah I'm in total agreement with you here. I'm actually a proponent of "no" progression just like you describe. Closest thing I've ever found was Starport (2d mmo) which I enjoyed very much.
There was still some progression acquiring new ships but it all felt so lightweight.
hey Tatum I didnt want to get off track here in this thread so I made a blog here at mmorpg.com---> No Progression mmorpg
I'd love to have you stop by. I want to exchange some ideas with other sandbox players/designers.
The problem isn't exactly the grinding. The problem is how all of these non-sandbox games have such a fixed progression. There is zero randomness. There is zero uniqueness between players. "OK, lets level a paladin, now lets do it just like everyone else on the server already has, and lets get the exact same weapon everyone else did with the exact same stats and lets pick the exact same spec because there this one works best for pvp".
No, that's not fun at all. Random is fun. Suprises are fun. Predictability sucks, and MMO's today are so predictable with their progression it isn't funny. There are zero curveballs because devs and management teams don't want to risk their curveball blowing up in their face and losing them money. They all want to play it safe and follow WoW's blueprint.
Snoozefest.
And at the end of the day everyone is just a carbon copy of the next guy that is playing the class.
I'd like another MMO to come out where the next guy is different from me, at least in the slightest. Character Uniqueness is a key component of an MMO.
Most people get tired of their hobbies over time and move on to a new one. Its actually a natural progression of age. I've gone through several different hobbies in my 53 years. You just enjoy the one your with and look around for the next one when things start to get boring. Or take a break and fall back on an old stand by (like reading books) while you wait for something to fall on you.
Interesting post, and mostly very agreeable.. except the statements above. It appears from your post that you are an advocate of forced grouping mechanics and such, with the typical reasoning that "if you didnt want to play co-operative with me, then why are you playing a multiplayer game?".
That line of thinking is flawed, because besides the fact that it invalidates most crafters as players (most if not all mmos are solo crafting, that are not niche games like tale in the desert or roma victor). It is also flawed to think of mmorpg as being a cooperative multiplayer game.. it is not. MMORPG is about existing in a persistent world, in which other human players may or may not being doing their own things. Sure adventuring together can be one aspect of mmo social play.. but so is the virtual economy, crafters, explorers, harvesters, and any number of things one can do in mmos that dont involve grouping up.
The notion of mmorpg = forced groups is the same notion as "no one wants to group with me because i am perhaps antisocial or just not very good socially, therefore the game should force people to do so so i dont have to make an effort to socialize and form bonds with my peers to find partners to adventure with."
Wanting forced grouping is more anti social than not wanting it.
(note that that doesnt mean I am for having uber-dragon-of-total-doom be soloable by joe the warrior.. there needs to be reasons to want to socialize and group, of course, because although the idea of doing it for the sake of social interaction and not killing some elite is the correct idea, most of you only care about getting elitemob's sword of ultimate iWin)
And for my next MMO I want it to be a no numbers, no health bar, permadeath free roaming skill based, player skill driven empire building bonanza.
Until then... rogues do it from behind...
Have faith.
We are in the twilight of the Publishers and the dawn of the Indies in regards to MMO's.
Granted, that Indies lack the resources of the larger companies, and so take longer to develop. But in the near future, the publishers will get blind-sided.
Follow the progression of Audio and Video over the Internet. Music companies are trying to survive by pumping out packaged trash, into a dying retail market. Video companies are following suit. After them is multi-media; and finally this will happen to computer games.
Rule of Thumb, Audio is the trend setter. What happens to the audio market will impact the rest in time.
So no giving up on MMO's as a whole. We're still in the ages of Silent Films.
And that is why...
Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.
I'm gonna laugh my fool butt off if Blizzard's next MMO is a sandbox style game and gets about 10 million subs. I'm smiling inside just thinking about it now. Probably won't happen, but I can dream... LOL
Dude I totaly agree, gaming just hasnt been the same lately, with every area of gaming mashing together with others creating a lack of interesting concepts, and taking the MM out of MMO.
Who hasnt had enough? It's truly a shame.
Lobo, while I disagree with your thesis, I've found your posts to be thoughtful and valued.
If you're not COMPLETELY done with MMOs, might I suggest Battleground Europe: WWII Online. It is a game that is virtually the opposite of every complaint you have:
1). Mature PvP community, and a very active community
2). It is a seamless virtual Europe at 1/2 scale. Not battlegrounds or instancing at all.
3). Gameplay is almost entirely based on personal skill. No grinding to get leet gear, or leet levels. It's just you and the enemy you have in your sights.
4). The game is quite challenging. Even vets who've been playing for years still die. A lot. And to 'green tags' (new players).
5). The game supports both a hardcore and casual playstyle really well. If you want quick action, you simply find out where the main attacks are happening, spawn in. If you want something more challenging, you can spawn in a town or two back from the front lines, drive your tank to flank the enemy town and cut off his supply line. Or join a paratroop mission and parachute into combat.
6). Be warned. Loosing happens in this game. If you can't take loosing, and can't admit that the dude that just killed you had the drop on you, you will be frustrated; it's best you go back to games where you can't loose.
7). Morale of your side is important and sways the actual numbers of players online on both sides. It is both a cool and frustrating aspect of this game. If your side's numbers are down due to poor morale, you just have to suck it up or join those who aren't logging in.
8). Finally, if you do decide to try out WWII Online, you'll find the actual game forums to be interesting at times, informative at times, but most of all filled with propaganda from each side. In other words, don't believe anything any side says about itself or the enemy. Trust that the Developers (called Rats) want and need a balanced game, and that they best know how to achieve it.
Good luck Lobo in whatever you do.
_____________________________
Currently Playing: LOTRO; DDO
Played: AC2, AO, Auto Assault, CoX, DAoC, DDO, Earth&Beyond, EQ1, EQ2, EVE, Fallen Earth, Jumpgate, Roma Victor, Second Life, SWG, V:SoH, WoW, World War II Online.
Games I'm watching: Infinity: The Quest for Earth, Force of Arms.
Find the Truth: http://www.factcheck.org/
And without it, we get 1001 campers trying to get the best loot, as there's 1001 online best loot maps to show them (no more mysteries in games now -- walkthroughs are everywhere).
What would be ideal is that random NPCs (with random stats, so players who see a dragon, won't use their usual anti-dragon setup to defeat it), will popup anywhere in the wilderness. It could be a level 100 beast, to a level 1 rat, but the level 100 beast could have the stats of the level 1 rat (enticing the player to want to engage in combat, as there is a chance even a newbie could take it down for the XP and drops), and vice versa.
Do away with spawn points. Make beasts random top down. That'll make the need to have PvP not even needed (as folks PvP now because they're so bored of the NPC spawn points and the same tiring ways to kill NPCs).
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
of there is a random system the balance will be destroyed..