Turbine seems to be waiting to roll out "books," and producing more of the story rather than massive raids. And what would you rather do, raid, or experience Moria! Can't wait for that! But, then, I'm a Tolkien geek...
It's a proven historical fact that beer saved humankind.
Hey i played LOTRO a month on a mates account the only thing i hated bout the game is that i lvled so slow. Is it still going so slow or have they changed it so you can lvl faster?
LOTRO slow? It seems like one of the fastest leveling games I've played! What are you using as a comparison?
Sovrath, compared to Lineage 2, *reverse* would seem like fast leveling :-p (still weird seeing you posting in other games' forums... always thought you'd be a L2 Lifer XD).
Seriously though, LoTRO is *not* that slow. I mean, personally, I wouldn't mind if it were even a bit slower than it is. WoW was *way* too fast for me - part of the reason I bored of it so quickly. FFXI, my other "main game", is considerably slower than LoTRO and Lineage 2 is slower still.
But... all said, I think the pace of leveling in LoTRO feels "right". I am very much what I'd consider an "adventurer" in MMOs; I play "for the journey" - though I do like to feel I'm making progress as well. When I level, I feel like I've done "enough" to have earned it - never too much, never too little.
As for how you, the OP, have mentioned that you like to get to end-game 'cause that's where the most fun content is... You know, I really think that's an inaccurate assessment and a rather counter-intuitive approach to have in a MMO.
There's good content all the way up if you take the time to experience and take it in. The storylines for some of the normal quests in LoTRO are great. The epic Book Quests are genius, IMO. Those are there to be experienced and enjoyed - not to be rushed through just "to get them out of the way".
I'm not sure where it comes from, but the fascination/obsession some have with end-game seems to be defined by at least a couple behaviors I notice in some players...
A: They seem to feel that getting to end-game = "winning the game".
B: Some feel that having gotten to end-game quickly is some kind of badge of honor; like it places them in some "upper echelon" of gamers; makes them "hardcore". And I guess other players are enchanted by that and want to be part of that "elite club".
I say phooey. Anyone can level quickly. It's not difficult. It's brainless. If you can equip a weapon and kill mobs, you're going to level. Leveling in a MMO is not a goal, it's a given; and I think some place *way* too much importance on doing it "as fast as possible".
I also find that the largest number of complaints about "not enough content" tends to come from those who raced to end-game and passed a large portion of it up.
Meanwhile, those who take their time and really get into the game, enjoy the content and diversify their activities seem to be the happiest and most content. I mean, after all, the 'end-game' will be there when you get to it... so what's the hurry?
Speaking for myself, I'm a 33 Hunter. I'm having a blast. There's no shortage of content. My quest log is always full (nothing lower than "green"). I have plenty of deeds to complete and still have a ball exploring the game. I'm working my way toward Master Woodsman. And there's always more to do. I haven't even really *touched* PvMP yet; though listening to my kin-mates who spend a couple hours in there every night, it sounds like a lot of fun.
For those reasons, I really have to scratch my head when I read of people getting to end-game in like... a few weeks and then complaining of not enough content. There's more than I could ever imagine getting through on one character. And We haven't even gotten to the first expansion yet.
So, in the end, if you find the leveling in LoTRO too slow my only recommendations would be:
A: Find a game that has leveling more to your liking
B: Maybe try taking a different approach to the game, place less emphasis on leveling and more on experiencing the content on the way up.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
LOTRo is a game made to please the eye. Its a game for people to enjoy being in the Tolkien world. Its a game in which people share a great community. Getting xp and levelling up is the by-product of daily enjoyment. Its not a game in which people watch the xp bar rather than the beautiful scenery. LOTRo is actually a game in which you should not look at your xp bar b/c there are so much more to enjoy.
I have this strange idea. When we were young, we go to the park and play not trying to rush to any "end game". We play and could not stop playing till mom spank us and drag us away literally in chains. Nowadays, some players go to play wanting to finish the "game" earlier. Why?
Originally posted by DragonOakI guess it is just the need for online socialization that makes doing the same task one billion times bearable.
These "endgame" raids and raid guilds are about the most antisocial thing I can think of. People are only bound together by the desire to get that phat lewt and it often shows in their behaviour towards each other, not to mention the elitist attitude towards any outsider. Yes, yes, there are some exceptions, I know. The general need for the most uberest items, hence raiding 24/7 with people you don't care about and most likely can't stand anyway, seems to some human instinct. Just remember Diablo 2 and it's billions of clones, which was a very average game objectively, but the hunt for that next gear upgrade kept millions playing. Same story in WoW and similarly item based MMOs. Anyway, as some people have mentioned already, LotRO focusses on the journey, mostly thanks to the main quest line. If that suits your preferences you'll have to decide for yourself. PS: Nerf this forum software nerfing Opera.
That sense of greed, entitlement (warranted or not) and impatience played a large role in ripping apart a WoW guild some friends of mine were in. They were a large, active and very prolific guild, together for over a year. Then, within a couple weeks - poof... Gone.
As it was conveyed to me, basically someone started a rumor about another member being favored over others; that they were going to get a purple drop "out of turn". It hadn't even *happened* yet; this was all unfounded , third-hand speculation. No one bothered to check the facts. Assumptions grew, insults flew, feelings were irreversibly hurt, attempts to state the facts were deemed "lies to hide the truth", and it got out of control to the point of no return. All over some pixels on a computer screen.
Finally the Guild leader got sick of it and just disbanded. An active guild of almost 200 members, gone... just like that. All over greed-driven hearsay.
It's something that really turned me off to the whole idea of a raid-centric end-game.
If that's what I get to experience in return for some nice items... no thanks. You can have it.
For one, I'm glad Turbine so far hasn't gone that route where raiding is the "end-all" for the "end-game". I hope they continue to not go that route.
For me, the point and enjoyment of playing the game lies in all the content available from level 1 'til when ever I decide I'm done playing.... whether I be at "level cap" or not.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
And for the last five years this is why I have steered away from most guilds.
Would it be fair to say the guilds fail more often than not? And if they do, why do most MMO's design content, raid, and instances to be guild friendly? Based on the fact the most guilds fall apart, then is it safe to assume the "high" end content in most MMO's is only available to a few?
Originally posted by DragonOakI guess it is just the need for online socialization that makes doing the same task one billion times bearable.
These "endgame" raids and raid guilds are about the most antisocial thing I can think of. People are only bound together by the desire to get that phat lewt and it often shows in their behaviour towards each other, not to mention the elitist attitude towards any outsider. Yes, yes, there are some exceptions, I know. The general need for the most uberest items, hence raiding 24/7 with people you don't care about and most likely can't stand anyway, seems to some human instinct. Just remember Diablo 2 and it's billions of clones, which was a very average game objectively, but the hunt for that next gear upgrade kept millions playing. Same story in WoW and similarly item based MMOs. Anyway, as some people have mentioned already, LotRO focusses on the journey, mostly thanks to the main quest line. If that suits your preferences you'll have to decide for yourself. PS: Nerf this forum software nerfing Opera.
Of course this post only applies if you think the same of LOTRO's end game raids
in LotRO
- the end game raids are done for the challenge of doing them, if guilds did not feel this way they would not do it as raiding is not worth it for the items alone.
- a guild that runs 12 man raids like clockwork are much closer than any zerg of a guild you will find yourself in otherwise and warrents no antisocial behaviour what so ever
- LOTRO focuses on the fact that there is a little bit of everything for everyone, the journey is just a single thing, the fact is everyone hits the level cap at some point.. where is your journey after that?
You reach the cap sooner or later in almost any game you play.
Hardcore raiders burn through content quicker then new one can be put in, heck people are complaining there is not enough WoW raids. At the same time others are complaining about the rat race for gear in that game. The point is hardcorte raiders are the group that will always end up unhappy unless a new raid instance is plastered in a game, any game, every month.
What you do when you cap the level is up to you. Roll an alt, raid, craft, advance hortizontally, RP, explore, etc. I don't know, it is up to you, if nothing but hardcore raiding keeps you around you might be better served by switching games every time you burn through the raid content.
And for the last five years this is why I have steered away from most guilds. Would it be fair to say the guilds fail more often than not? And if they do, why do most MMO's design content, raid, and instances to be guild friendly? Based on the fact the most guilds fall apart, then is it safe to assume the "high" end content in most MMO's is only available to a few?
Well I don't think raids are made specifically "Guild Friendly". I think it's just that guilds have the easiest time organizing them since they're already an established group.
And really, how players approach the content isn't really under the devs' control. If a guild comes into the game that's burned through the end-game of a dozen other games before it and, in turn, burn right through LoTRO's and then complain about not enough content, well, how can the devs control that? Whose problem is it if they'd done little to no research about the nature of the game before buying their accounts?
Content that takes players a week or two to get through - if that - takes months of planning, design, development, implementation, testing and so forth. There's simply no way a company can churn out quality content as fast as people can burn through it.
The only thing a MMO company has on their side is time in that regard. Someone starting WoW today is going to have far more end-game content to look forward to than someone who started the game in its first year. It's no different for any other MMO at end-game. It will be no different for LoTRO 2 or 3 years down the road.
And, of course, as has already been stated, LoTRO is not all about end-game in the first place. So, if a guild decides to burn through to the end-game and ignores most all the other content, again, that's not under Turbine's control.
The attitude some people take toward a game for not being what they want it to be, when more than enough info is available to determine whether or not it's a game they would enjoy before buying it, is ridiculous to me. Ignorance is no excuse. Though, it's not surprising. People seldom ever accept responsibility for their own poor actions/decisions.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Originally posted by DragonOakI guess it is just the need for online socialization that makes doing the same task one billion times bearable.
These "endgame" raids and raid guilds are about the most antisocial thing I can think of. People are only bound together by the desire to get that phat lewt and it often shows in their behaviour towards each other, not to mention the elitist attitude towards any outsider. Yes, yes, there are some exceptions, I know. The general need for the most uberest items, hence raiding 24/7 with people you don't care about and most likely can't stand anyway, seems to some human instinct. Just remember Diablo 2 and it's billions of clones, which was a very average game objectively, but the hunt for that next gear upgrade kept millions playing. Same story in WoW and similarly item based MMOs. Anyway, as some people have mentioned already, LotRO focusses on the journey, mostly thanks to the main quest line. If that suits your preferences you'll have to decide for yourself. PS: Nerf this forum software nerfing Opera.
Of course this post only applies if you think the same of LOTRO's end game raids
in LotRO
- the end game raids are done for the challenge of doing them, if guilds did not feel this way they would not do it as raiding is not worth it for the items alone.
- a guild that runs 12 man raids like clockwork are much closer than any zerg of a guild you will find yourself in otherwise and warrents no antisocial behaviour what so ever
- LOTRO focuses on the fact that there is a little bit of everything for everyone, the journey is just a single thing, the fact is everyone hits the level cap at some point.. where is your journey after that?
I agree with you Druz.
The raiding in LoTRo is given as an alternative for those that like that play-style. And, given the right people in the kinship; can be a very fun time.
Turbine has sought to provide a game for all play-styles. Whether it be crafting, questing, raiding, or MPvP.
My level 50 Minstrel has participated in some Raids... but to be honest with you... I have more fun helping out other kin-members with quests, finishing up the Books, or even finishing up the Deeds/Traits. I also spend quite a bit of time helping the crafters get the items they need for doing crit-crafting. Those are usually the activities that occupy my level-cap gameplay. An occasional Raid is fun for a distraction though... being a Minstrel doesn't hurt for getting invites.
My questions were not really meant to be directed at LoTRO, it was more about MMO's in general. Personally I like what I see in LoTRO and can, for the first time in 7 years of MMO gaming, say I am actually disappointed when I level. I am in rush for the end game.
While it can be said that because of the hard cores that rush thru the content, and designers creating end game content to satisfy them, and then deducing that gamers have so much end game content to enjoy after 3+ years of the game being developed looks good on paper but.........in reality every time new content is made outdates the previous content.
In WoW VERY few people raid Strat, Scholo, or Ubers since the release of BC. EQ had the same problem, every expansion outdating the prior content. So designers and developers spend a lot of time and effort ot make content that will be passed by as soon as the next expansion or update is released. Meaning that only a few hardcore raiders got to experience that "new" content. And because the hardcores can NOT be bothered with last weeks flavor, it means the new and upcoming players have to get on board and play the current content only if they want to raid. And those guilds that are up and coming cant afford to waste their time in the prior content areas because the drops are so heavily outdated there really is not point. What I see so far from LoTRO is that is NOT the case.
Personally I see this as a design flaw in MMO gaming, and once the bean counters add up how much was time and money was put into making content that is outdated in 6 months, and that the return on the investment is less that "average" for content that is not longer utilized but still taking up resources, crap will hit the fan.
My questions were not really meant to be directed at LoTRO, it was more about MMO's in general. Personally I like what I see in LoTRO and can, for the first time in 7 years of MMO gaming, say I am actually disappointed when I level. I am in rush for the end game. While it can be said that because of the hard cores that rush thru the content, and designers creating end game content to satisfy them, and then deducing that gamers have so much end game content to enjoy after 3+ years of the game being developed looks good on paper but.........in reality every time new content is made outdates the previous content. In WoW VERY few people raid Strat, Scholo, or Ubers since the release of BC. EQ had the same problem, every expansion outdating the prior content. So designers and developers spend a lot of time and effort ot make content that will be passed by as soon as the next expansion or update is released. Meaning that only a few hardcore raiders got to experience that "new" content. And because the hardcores can NOT be bothered with last weeks flavor, it means the new and upcoming players have to get on board and play the current content only if they want to raid. And those guilds that are up and coming cant afford to waste their time in the prior content areas because the drops are so heavily outdated there really is not point. What I see so far from LoTRO is that is NOT the case. Personally I see this as a design flaw in MMO gaming, and once the bean counters add up how much was time and money was put into making content that is outdated in 6 months, and that the return on the investment is less that "average" for content that is not longer utilized but still taking up resources, crap will hit the fan.
Good analysis DragonOak.
That sounds like a logical reason why the developers decided to hold off on NEW raid content until MoM is released. The MoM expansion is to be released this fall... so about 6 months (although I wouldn't be surprised to see it slip into winter). Book 13 and then 14 is scheduled to be released between now and then.
So, even if they got a new raid in with book 13 it's stuff that would only be utilized fully for less than 6 months (depends on when in April book 13 comes out). With book 14 a new raid makes even less sense as the return on investment would be even less.
As you pointed out... when MoM comes out... everyone who is interested in doing high-end Raiding content will be there... not doing whatever came out in book 13 or 14. Makes sense. Thanks. It's good to see that Turbine is actually thinking ahead like this.
I don't know how hard levelling is in higher levels or how long the overall journey to 'cap level' would be in LotRO... but I can see from other games why one might want to have achieved cap level.
I think the main reasons for pushing to level cap in WoW is PvP. 2nd... gear. 3rd... content (pvp/pve).
Why PvP? Because on a PvP server, if you are <70 then you will be crushed. You can potentially be camped to the point of futility. So, you burn through levels in a 'survival of the fittest' mindset.
Gear. Gear controls your power AND your appearance. Until you get to later levels and get full item sets and weapon enchants, your character looks like a clown. Mismatched gear and all of that... it just makes your toon look poor or potentially weak. And really, until you are 70, your gear is relatively weak.
PvP/PvE content. @ 70, you have access to all 4 Battlegrounds and you meet the primary pre-req for all -end-game instances.
There are a lot of reputation grinds to progress through and unlock instances, items, and schematics. There are both PvP factions and PvE factions to gain rep and rewards for.
...
Htting cap in a game should be 'an event'. In most games, you hit cap and it's just 'gratz' from guildmates and other players in the area. To me, it should be an event... maybe a cinematic cutscene with your character of some kind.
...
Games that have no end-game need to have a very diverse method of getting from lvl 1 to CAP for each character class, race, or faction, imho. Otherwise, as you roll new characters you are just going back through the same content. After the first few times of doing that... you really just wish you could bypass it (or at least I did).
...
From my experience in LOTRO, I didn't find the game slow from a level to level perspective. As I hit each level though, I just saw it as one level closer to that character reaching a point where I would no longer really need them (there would be nothing for them to do).
... From my experience in LOTRO, I didn't find the game slow from a level to level perspective. As I hit each level though, I just saw it as one level closer to that character reaching a point where I would no longer really need them (there would be nothing for them to do).
My experience in WoW is you rush to cap level, because that is where all the "action" is at. Raid ABoss 100 times to gear the guild to Raid BBoss 100 times to gear the guild to Raid CBoss....................... and it goes like that. You can replace aboss, bboss, cboss with faction or key quests for dungeons if you prefer. They create an illusion that content is there but in reality it is the low to rare drop rates that attempt to slow progression down to a snails pace and make you think you are receiving rich content.
My experience with LoTRO is that I can enjoy the journey. From level one I can say that was cool, or I liked that, or that was intense and not feel a need to make five levels so I can come back and wipe the place out. I can explore, craft, farm, quest, and raid and enjoy it all. Then if I level my character and run out of things to do, I can level an alt, work on deeds, explore as much as possible, master crafts, raid for FUN, and do monster play; of which, btw, I try to do while play to level cap to slow my experience down a bit. If anything I could live with Turbine slowing experience down a bit. Then after all of that, if I become bored, which takes a loooooonnnnnnnggggggg time if people breath and pace the game to enjoy every possible facit, I can take time off until the next patch. And not feel like I am missing out on anything. I can go outside and breath the fresh air, I can play another game and not feel like I am cheating on the game I love, I can actually have a life.
The difference is WoW tries to focus on end game by slowing drop rates and key quests, but really not focusing on the game to get there. LoTRO has succeeded where I never thought any game would return, bringing back the journey.
... From my experience in LOTRO, I didn't find the game slow from a level to level perspective. As I hit each level though, I just saw it as one level closer to that character reaching a point where I would no longer really need them (there would be nothing for them to do).
My experience in WoW is you rush to cap level, because that is where all the "action" is at. Raid ABoss 100 times to gear the guild to Raid BBoss 100 times to gear the guild to Raid CBoss....................... and it goes like that. You can replace aboss, bboss, cboss with faction or key quests for dungeons if you prefer. They create an illusion that content is there but in reality it is the low to rare drop rates that attempt to slow progression down to a snails pace and make you think you are receiving rich content.
My experience with LoTRO is that I can enjoy the journey. From level one I can say that was cool, or I liked that, or that was intense and not feel a need to make five levels so I can come back and wipe the place out. I can explore, craft, farm, quest, and raid and enjoy it all. Then if I level my character and run out of things to do, I can level an alt, work on deeds, explore as much as possible, master crafts, raid for FUN, and do monster play; of which, btw, I try to do while play to level cap to slow my experience down a bit. If anything I could live with Turbine slowing experience down a bit. Then after all of that, if I become bored, which takes a loooooonnnnnnnggggggg time if people breath and pace the game to enjoy every possible facit, I can take time off until the next patch. And not feel like I am missing out on anything. I can go outside and breath the fresh air, I can play another game and not feel like I am cheating on the game I love, I can actually have a life.
The difference is WoW tries to focus on end game by slowing drop rates and key quests, but really not focusing on the game to get there. LoTRO has succeeded where I never thought any game would return, bringing back the journey.
This echoes my feelings toward it.
Things that others have mentioned - needing to get to end-game to be competitive, or to have the best gear, etc. etc. Those seem to be either situational, or only important because the player themself deems them so.
For example, getting to level cap for survival's sake... In no PvP MMO I've played has that ever been a factor - or even common. For one, it's seldom ever a fair fight. I have rarely ever seen someone pick a fight with someone they thought they might lose to. For another, even at level cap, many times you'll have a group of players *lower* level than you who can take you down. Being at level cap perhaps makes you more competitive on a one-on-one situation with someone at or near your level, or a few-on-one if they're lower level and/or perhaps not as good players. But, in my experience, the thought that "If I get to level cap, I'll be less of a target" is fallacious - a false sense of security.
Second... the gear thing. Having to have the best gear and especially have everything match. That's purely player-driven. Never in my experience has it been truly necessary to succeed in the game. It's necessary because the players - often in a very elitist manner - deem it so, for themselves and, in some cases, for others. Unless the design of the game mandates that you need the best gear possible to succeed. In that case, I consider that poor design, forcing the player into a specific play style, or path, that they might not otherwise choose for them self.
I don't know when it happened exactly - almost certain it was to do with WoW - but for a long time, I never saw people so in a hurry to get to end-game as they are now. Or at least not near so much importance was placed on it. The idea of "getting to end-game" in a genre that is, by design, unending since new content is always being added, is just counter-intuitive to me. MMOs are more like a cross-country marathon... not a 20-yard dash.
It kinda reminds me of a very real-life situation I, and I'm sure others, see from time to time; and it always makes me shake my head. You're driving down the street when suddenly another driver races past you, weaving in and out of traffic. You come to the next red light to see them there waiting... They got to exactly where you were going, just faster. Light turns green and off they go! Sure enough, there they are, engine revving, already cursing the next red light for taking too long as you casually pull up next to them. The light turns green just as you get to it, just in time to see them race off to the next red light. And so forth. "Hurry up, then wait... repeatedly" comes to mind.
This to me is very much like the people who race to end game, repeating the same raids over and over, as they wait impatiently for the next new raid to be added, so they can race through and repeat that over and over again, while they wait for the next... wash, rinse, repeat. Meanwhile, the people taking their time experiencing the content along the way never feel that sense of repetition set in, because there's always something else for them to do in the meantime.
Some argue that it's the end-game that really matters; it's where "the good stuff" is. Then I look at the evidence to the contrary... at all the content available along the way, all the options, and how I never seem to see those taking their time to experience more of it complaining about a lack of things to do... I can't help but think somehow that "race to end-game" mentality is the real problem - and a self-perpetuating one at that - not the game design itself.
Speaking for myself, when I read comments about how there's not enough to do in LoTRO, I look at my level (33), then at my ever-full quest log, then at all the quests to do, if I choose, once my active ones are cleared out, then at the traits I want to work on getting, then at the crafting I have yet to do, then at the other activities available to me... and I honestly wonder what game they're talking about. The LoTRO I'm playing has more to do than I could ever hope to before hitting level cap on a single character - possibly even 2.
From level 1 to now, I have *never* found there to be a lack of things to do. Quite the opposite - I'll half-jokingly note from time to time how the number of quests in the game alone must be an OCD nightmare. When the people complaining about not enough to do at end-game respond to such commentary with their self-edifying, chest-pounding comments of how "they're simply better players" and that "the end-game is where the real action is", I just chuckle and think, "yet I'm not the one complaining. So, really, who's kidding who?"
And it's not like I don't play often. I play every night, for at least a few hours. It's just that every minute I'm playing isn't spent grinding away unyieldingly toward end-game. It's not a case of alt-itis. I have a couple alts, at like.. level 7 tops. I created them to try out different classes. It's simply a matter of me choosing to experience what the game has to offer instead of racing past it to that "next red light" at the end of the street.
Take last night for example... I gained hardly any xp on my main - and had a ball doing it. My time was spent doing a couple chicken-play runs (aggro dodging is always a fun challenge to me). Then the rest of my evening - a good 3 hours at least - was spent in PvMP - which brings me to an aside. Despite the claims I've seen of how no one does PvMP because of whatever reason, it was non-stop action the entire time - and still going when I finally logged out at 1AM). I've read how Trolls and Rangers throw things so out of balance that PvMP is "broken", it's not worth playing, etc... Yet, even with at least one of each present for a good amount of time last night, the action never slowed. And that's typically how it is. But anyway...
I think that's the difference right there. Most "end-gamers" I've met aren't satisfied unless they see their xp bars/levels increasing constantly. I don't care if I sit at the same level for a week - as long as I'm having fun in the meantime. And there's more than enough to be done in the game besides questing/leveling to ensure that I do.
To each their own I suppose.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I need to clarify, when I make commentary like my experience in WoW being a race to 70 "because that was were all the action is" was not an attitude to my liking.
It was built that way based on PvP and how in order to compete one needed to be 70 to even survive in relative terms.
I like how LoTRO is.
I like playing a game for leisure sake instead of creating it to be an EA sport.
I like focusing on the journey rather than the end.
I like that it is multifacted and I can work an area that suits me for the evening.
Maybe it is an age thing I don't know, but I am content with LoTRO and in my opinion leveling could be even slower and suit me just fine.
... From my experience in LOTRO, I didn't find the game slow from a level to level perspective. As I hit each level though, I just saw it as one level closer to that character reaching a point where I would no longer really need them (there would be nothing for them to do).
My experience in WoW is you rush to cap level, because that is where all the "action" is at. Raid ABoss 100 times to gear the guild to Raid BBoss 100 times to gear the guild to Raid CBoss....................... and it goes like that. You can replace aboss, bboss, cboss with faction or key quests for dungeons if you prefer. They create an illusion that content is there but in reality it is the low to rare drop rates that attempt to slow progression down to a snails pace and make you think you are receiving rich content.
My experience with LoTRO is that I can enjoy the journey. From level one I can say that was cool, or I liked that, or that was intense and not feel a need to make five levels so I can come back and wipe the place out. I can explore, craft, farm, quest, and raid and enjoy it all. Then if I level my character and run out of things to do, I can level an alt, work on deeds, explore as much as possible, master crafts, raid for FUN, and do monster play; of which, btw, I try to do while play to level cap to slow my experience down a bit. If anything I could live with Turbine slowing experience down a bit. Then after all of that, if I become bored, which takes a loooooonnnnnnnggggggg time if people breath and pace the game to enjoy every possible facit, I can take time off until the next patch. And not feel like I am missing out on anything. I can go outside and breath the fresh air, I can play another game and not feel like I am cheating on the game I love, I can actually have a life.
The difference is WoW tries to focus on end game by slowing drop rates and key quests, but really not focusing on the game to get there. LoTRO has succeeded where I never thought any game would return, bringing back the journey.
This echoes my feelings toward it.
Things that others have mentioned - needing to get to end-game to be competitive, or to have the best gear, etc. etc. Those seem to be either situational, or only important because the player themself deems them so.
For example, getting to level cap for survival's sake... In no PvP MMO I've played has that ever been a factor - or even common. For one, it's seldom ever a fair fight. I have rarely ever seen someone pick a fight with someone they thought they might lose to. For another, even at level cap, many times you'll have a group of players *lower* level than you who can take you down. Being at level cap perhaps makes you more competitive on a one-on-one situation with someone at or near your level, or a few-on-one if they're lower level and/or perhaps not as good players. But, in my experience, the thought that "If I get to level cap, I'll be less of a target" is fallacious - a false sense of security.
Second... the gear thing. Having to have the best gear and especially have everything match. That's purely player-driven. Never in my experience has it been truly necessary to succeed in the game. It's necessary because the players - often in a very elitist manner - deem it so, for themselves and, in some cases, for others. Unless the design of the game mandates that you need the best gear possible to succeed. In that case, I consider that poor design, forcing the player into a specific play style, or path, that they might not otherwise choose for them self.
I don't know when it happened exactly - almost certain it was to do with WoW - but for a long time, I never saw people so in a hurry to get to end-game as they are now. Or at least not near so much importance was placed on it. The idea of "getting to end-game" in a genre that is, by design, unending since new content is always being added, is just counter-intuitive to me. MMOs are more like a cross-country marathon... not a 20-yard dash.
It kinda reminds me of a very real-life situation I, and I'm sure others, see from time to time; and it always makes me shake my head. You're driving down the street when suddenly another driver races past you, weaving in and out of traffic. You come to the next red light to see them there waiting... They got to exactly where you were going, just faster. Light turns green and off they go! Sure enough, there they are, engine revving, already cursing the next red light for taking too long as you casually pull up next to them. The light turns green just as you get to it, just in time to see them race off to the next red light. And so forth. "Hurry up, then wait... repeatedly" comes to mind.
This to me is very much like the people who race to end game, repeating the same raids over and over, as they wait impatiently for the next new raid to be added, so they can race through and repeat that over and over again, while they wait for the next... wash, rinse, repeat. Meanwhile, the people taking their time experiencing the content along the way never feel that sense of repetition set in, because there's always something else for them to do in the meantime.
Some argue that it's the end-game that really matters; it's where "the good stuff" is. Then I look at the evidence to the contrary... at all the content available along the way, all the options, and how I never seem to see those taking their time to experience more of it complaining about a lack of things to do... I can't help but think somehow that "race to end-game" mentality is the real problem - and a self-perpetuating one at that - not the game design itself.
Speaking for myself, when I read comments about how there's not enough to do in LoTRO, I look at my level (33), then at my ever-full quest log, then at all the quests to do, if I choose, once my active ones are cleared out, then at the traits I want to work on getting, then at the crafting I have yet to do, then at the other activities available to me... and I honestly wonder what game they're talking about. The LoTRO I'm playing has more to do than I could ever hope to before hitting level cap on a single character - possibly even 2.
From level 1 to now, I have *never* found there to be a lack of things to do. Quite the opposite - I'll half-jokingly note from time to time how the number of quests in the game alone must be an OCD nightmare. When the people complaining about not enough to do at end-game respond to such commentary with their self-edifying, chest-pounding comments of how "they're simply better players" and that "the end-game is where the real action is", I just chuckle and think, "yet I'm not the one complaining. So, really, who's kidding who?"
And it's not like I don't play often. I play every night, for at least a few hours. It's just that every minute I'm playing isn't spent grinding away unyieldingly toward end-game. It's not a case of alt-itis. I have a couple alts, at like.. level 7 tops. I created them to try out different classes. It's simply a matter of me choosing to experience what the game has to offer instead of racing past it to that "next red light" at the end of the street.
Take last night for example... I gained hardly any xp on my main - and had a ball doing it. My time was spent doing a couple chicken-play runs (aggro dodging is always a fun challenge to me). Then the rest of my evening - a good 3 hours at least - was spent in PvMP - which brings me to an aside. Despite the claims I've seen of how no one does PvMP because of whatever reason, it was non-stop action the entire time - and still going when I finally logged out at 1AM). I've read how Trolls and Rangers throw things so out of balance that PvMP is "broken", it's not worth playing, etc... Yet, even with at least one of each present for a good amount of time last night, the action never slowed. And that's typically how it is. But anyway...
I think that's the difference right there. Most "end-gamers" I've met aren't satisfied unless they see their xp bars/levels increasing constantly. I don't care if I sit at the same level for a week - as long as I'm having fun in the meantime. And there's more than enough to be done in the game besides questing/leveling to ensure that I do.
Hey i played LOTRO a month on a mates account the only thing i hated bout the game is that i lvled so slow. Is it still going so slow or have they changed it so you can lvl faster?
Err.. is tis some kind of joke? Its irony, yes?
If its real, OMG! I mean, if anything is wrong with LOTRO its the levelling is WAY too frigging fast! Even a friend of mine, used to WOW said LOTRO levelling is too fast and easy, and that means something! I mean, I am rly no hardcore advocate, I whined about the steep levelling of the high levels in VG and EQ2, but LOTRO? Come on! Thats not slow.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Comments
Totally agree with Kyleran.
Turbine seems to be waiting to roll out "books," and producing more of the story rather than massive raids. And what would you rather do, raid, or experience Moria! Can't wait for that! But, then, I'm a Tolkien geek...
It's a proven historical fact that beer saved humankind.
LOTRO slow? It seems like one of the fastest leveling games I've played! What are you using as a comparison?
Sovrath, compared to Lineage 2, *reverse* would seem like fast leveling :-p (still weird seeing you posting in other games' forums... always thought you'd be a L2 Lifer XD).
Seriously though, LoTRO is *not* that slow. I mean, personally, I wouldn't mind if it were even a bit slower than it is. WoW was *way* too fast for me - part of the reason I bored of it so quickly. FFXI, my other "main game", is considerably slower than LoTRO and Lineage 2 is slower still.
But... all said, I think the pace of leveling in LoTRO feels "right". I am very much what I'd consider an "adventurer" in MMOs; I play "for the journey" - though I do like to feel I'm making progress as well. When I level, I feel like I've done "enough" to have earned it - never too much, never too little.
As for how you, the OP, have mentioned that you like to get to end-game 'cause that's where the most fun content is... You know, I really think that's an inaccurate assessment and a rather counter-intuitive approach to have in a MMO.
There's good content all the way up if you take the time to experience and take it in. The storylines for some of the normal quests in LoTRO are great. The epic Book Quests are genius, IMO. Those are there to be experienced and enjoyed - not to be rushed through just "to get them out of the way".
I'm not sure where it comes from, but the fascination/obsession some have with end-game seems to be defined by at least a couple behaviors I notice in some players...
A: They seem to feel that getting to end-game = "winning the game".
B: Some feel that having gotten to end-game quickly is some kind of badge of honor; like it places them in some "upper echelon" of gamers; makes them "hardcore". And I guess other players are enchanted by that and want to be part of that "elite club".
I say phooey. Anyone can level quickly. It's not difficult. It's brainless. If you can equip a weapon and kill mobs, you're going to level. Leveling in a MMO is not a goal, it's a given; and I think some place *way* too much importance on doing it "as fast as possible".
I also find that the largest number of complaints about "not enough content" tends to come from those who raced to end-game and passed a large portion of it up.
Meanwhile, those who take their time and really get into the game, enjoy the content and diversify their activities seem to be the happiest and most content. I mean, after all, the 'end-game' will be there when you get to it... so what's the hurry?
Speaking for myself, I'm a 33 Hunter. I'm having a blast. There's no shortage of content. My quest log is always full (nothing lower than "green"). I have plenty of deeds to complete and still have a ball exploring the game. I'm working my way toward Master Woodsman. And there's always more to do. I haven't even really *touched* PvMP yet; though listening to my kin-mates who spend a couple hours in there every night, it sounds like a lot of fun.
For those reasons, I really have to scratch my head when I read of people getting to end-game in like... a few weeks and then complaining of not enough content. There's more than I could ever imagine getting through on one character. And We haven't even gotten to the first expansion yet.
So, in the end, if you find the leveling in LoTRO too slow my only recommendations would be:
A: Find a game that has leveling more to your liking
B: Maybe try taking a different approach to the game, place less emphasis on leveling and more on experiencing the content on the way up.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
the levels only went slowly when i could not find a group for the book quests (which is very rare as there are plenty of groups to be found).
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds
-Solid non level based game
-Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
LOTRo is a game made to please the eye. Its a game for people to enjoy being in the Tolkien world. Its a game in which people share a great community. Getting xp and levelling up is the by-product of daily enjoyment. Its not a game in which people watch the xp bar rather than the beautiful scenery. LOTRo is actually a game in which you should not look at your xp bar b/c there are so much more to enjoy.
I have this strange idea. When we were young, we go to the park and play not trying to rush to any "end game". We play and could not stop playing till mom spank us and drag us away literally in chains. Nowadays, some players go to play wanting to finish the "game" earlier. Why?
Oh yeah, Moria, I am waiting.
That sense of greed, entitlement (warranted or not) and impatience played a large role in ripping apart a WoW guild some friends of mine were in. They were a large, active and very prolific guild, together for over a year. Then, within a couple weeks - poof... Gone.
As it was conveyed to me, basically someone started a rumor about another member being favored over others; that they were going to get a purple drop "out of turn". It hadn't even *happened* yet; this was all unfounded , third-hand speculation. No one bothered to check the facts. Assumptions grew, insults flew, feelings were irreversibly hurt, attempts to state the facts were deemed "lies to hide the truth", and it got out of control to the point of no return. All over some pixels on a computer screen.
Finally the Guild leader got sick of it and just disbanded. An active guild of almost 200 members, gone... just like that. All over greed-driven hearsay.
It's something that really turned me off to the whole idea of a raid-centric end-game.
If that's what I get to experience in return for some nice items... no thanks. You can have it.
For one, I'm glad Turbine so far hasn't gone that route where raiding is the "end-all" for the "end-game". I hope they continue to not go that route.
For me, the point and enjoyment of playing the game lies in all the content available from level 1 'til when ever I decide I'm done playing.... whether I be at "level cap" or not.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
And for the last five years this is why I have steered away from most guilds.
Would it be fair to say the guilds fail more often than not? And if they do, why do most MMO's design content, raid, and instances to be guild friendly? Based on the fact the most guilds fall apart, then is it safe to assume the "high" end content in most MMO's is only available to a few?
Of course this post only applies if you think the same of LOTRO's end game raids
in LotRO
- the end game raids are done for the challenge of doing them, if guilds did not feel this way they would not do it as raiding is not worth it for the items alone.
- a guild that runs 12 man raids like clockwork are much closer than any zerg of a guild you will find yourself in otherwise and warrents no antisocial behaviour what so ever
- LOTRO focuses on the fact that there is a little bit of everything for everyone, the journey is just a single thing, the fact is everyone hits the level cap at some point.. where is your journey after that?
You reach the cap sooner or later in almost any game you play.
Hardcore raiders burn through content quicker then new one can be put in, heck people are complaining there is not enough WoW raids. At the same time others are complaining about the rat race for gear in that game. The point is hardcorte raiders are the group that will always end up unhappy unless a new raid instance is plastered in a game, any game, every month.
What you do when you cap the level is up to you. Roll an alt, raid, craft, advance hortizontally, RP, explore, etc. I don't know, it is up to you, if nothing but hardcore raiding keeps you around you might be better served by switching games every time you burn through the raid content.
Well I don't think raids are made specifically "Guild Friendly". I think it's just that guilds have the easiest time organizing them since they're already an established group.
And really, how players approach the content isn't really under the devs' control. If a guild comes into the game that's burned through the end-game of a dozen other games before it and, in turn, burn right through LoTRO's and then complain about not enough content, well, how can the devs control that? Whose problem is it if they'd done little to no research about the nature of the game before buying their accounts?
Content that takes players a week or two to get through - if that - takes months of planning, design, development, implementation, testing and so forth. There's simply no way a company can churn out quality content as fast as people can burn through it.
The only thing a MMO company has on their side is time in that regard. Someone starting WoW today is going to have far more end-game content to look forward to than someone who started the game in its first year. It's no different for any other MMO at end-game. It will be no different for LoTRO 2 or 3 years down the road.
And, of course, as has already been stated, LoTRO is not all about end-game in the first place. So, if a guild decides to burn through to the end-game and ignores most all the other content, again, that's not under Turbine's control.
The attitude some people take toward a game for not being what they want it to be, when more than enough info is available to determine whether or not it's a game they would enjoy before buying it, is ridiculous to me. Ignorance is no excuse. Though, it's not surprising. People seldom ever accept responsibility for their own poor actions/decisions.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Of course this post only applies if you think the same of LOTRO's end game raids
I agree with you Druz.in LotRO
- the end game raids are done for the challenge of doing them, if guilds did not feel this way they would not do it as raiding is not worth it for the items alone.
- a guild that runs 12 man raids like clockwork are much closer than any zerg of a guild you will find yourself in otherwise and warrents no antisocial behaviour what so ever
- LOTRO focuses on the fact that there is a little bit of everything for everyone, the journey is just a single thing, the fact is everyone hits the level cap at some point.. where is your journey after that?
The raiding in LoTRo is given as an alternative for those that like that play-style. And, given the right people in the kinship; can be a very fun time.
Turbine has sought to provide a game for all play-styles. Whether it be crafting, questing, raiding, or MPvP.
My level 50 Minstrel has participated in some Raids... but to be honest with you... I have more fun helping out other kin-members with quests, finishing up the Books, or even finishing up the Deeds/Traits. I also spend quite a bit of time helping the crafters get the items they need for doing crit-crafting. Those are usually the activities that occupy my level-cap gameplay. An occasional Raid is fun for a distraction though... being a Minstrel doesn't hurt for getting invites.
My questions were not really meant to be directed at LoTRO, it was more about MMO's in general. Personally I like what I see in LoTRO and can, for the first time in 7 years of MMO gaming, say I am actually disappointed when I level. I am in rush for the end game.
While it can be said that because of the hard cores that rush thru the content, and designers creating end game content to satisfy them, and then deducing that gamers have so much end game content to enjoy after 3+ years of the game being developed looks good on paper but.........in reality every time new content is made outdates the previous content.
In WoW VERY few people raid Strat, Scholo, or Ubers since the release of BC. EQ had the same problem, every expansion outdating the prior content. So designers and developers spend a lot of time and effort ot make content that will be passed by as soon as the next expansion or update is released. Meaning that only a few hardcore raiders got to experience that "new" content. And because the hardcores can NOT be bothered with last weeks flavor, it means the new and upcoming players have to get on board and play the current content only if they want to raid. And those guilds that are up and coming cant afford to waste their time in the prior content areas because the drops are so heavily outdated there really is not point. What I see so far from LoTRO is that is NOT the case.
Personally I see this as a design flaw in MMO gaming, and once the bean counters add up how much was time and money was put into making content that is outdated in 6 months, and that the return on the investment is less that "average" for content that is not longer utilized but still taking up resources, crap will hit the fan.
That sounds like a logical reason why the developers decided to hold off on NEW raid content until MoM is released. The MoM expansion is to be released this fall... so about 6 months (although I wouldn't be surprised to see it slip into winter). Book 13 and then 14 is scheduled to be released between now and then.
So, even if they got a new raid in with book 13 it's stuff that would only be utilized fully for less than 6 months (depends on when in April book 13 comes out). With book 14 a new raid makes even less sense as the return on investment would be even less.
As you pointed out... when MoM comes out... everyone who is interested in doing high-end Raiding content will be there... not doing whatever came out in book 13 or 14. Makes sense. Thanks. It's good to see that Turbine is actually thinking ahead like this.
I don't know how hard levelling is in higher levels or how long the overall journey to 'cap level' would be in LotRO... but I can see from other games why one might want to have achieved cap level.
I think the main reasons for pushing to level cap in WoW is PvP. 2nd... gear. 3rd... content (pvp/pve).
Why PvP? Because on a PvP server, if you are <70 then you will be crushed. You can potentially be camped to the point of futility. So, you burn through levels in a 'survival of the fittest' mindset.
Gear. Gear controls your power AND your appearance. Until you get to later levels and get full item sets and weapon enchants, your character looks like a clown. Mismatched gear and all of that... it just makes your toon look poor or potentially weak. And really, until you are 70, your gear is relatively weak.
PvP/PvE content. @ 70, you have access to all 4 Battlegrounds and you meet the primary pre-req for all -end-game instances.
There are a lot of reputation grinds to progress through and unlock instances, items, and schematics. There are both PvP factions and PvE factions to gain rep and rewards for.
...
Htting cap in a game should be 'an event'. In most games, you hit cap and it's just 'gratz' from guildmates and other players in the area. To me, it should be an event... maybe a cinematic cutscene with your character of some kind.
...
Games that have no end-game need to have a very diverse method of getting from lvl 1 to CAP for each character class, race, or faction, imho. Otherwise, as you roll new characters you are just going back through the same content. After the first few times of doing that... you really just wish you could bypass it (or at least I did).
...
From my experience in LOTRO, I didn't find the game slow from a level to level perspective. As I hit each level though, I just saw it as one level closer to that character reaching a point where I would no longer really need them (there would be nothing for them to do).
My experience in WoW is you rush to cap level, because that is where all the "action" is at. Raid ABoss 100 times to gear the guild to Raid BBoss 100 times to gear the guild to Raid CBoss....................... and it goes like that. You can replace aboss, bboss, cboss with faction or key quests for dungeons if you prefer. They create an illusion that content is there but in reality it is the low to rare drop rates that attempt to slow progression down to a snails pace and make you think you are receiving rich content.
My experience with LoTRO is that I can enjoy the journey. From level one I can say that was cool, or I liked that, or that was intense and not feel a need to make five levels so I can come back and wipe the place out. I can explore, craft, farm, quest, and raid and enjoy it all. Then if I level my character and run out of things to do, I can level an alt, work on deeds, explore as much as possible, master crafts, raid for FUN, and do monster play; of which, btw, I try to do while play to level cap to slow my experience down a bit. If anything I could live with Turbine slowing experience down a bit. Then after all of that, if I become bored, which takes a loooooonnnnnnnggggggg time if people breath and pace the game to enjoy every possible facit, I can take time off until the next patch. And not feel like I am missing out on anything. I can go outside and breath the fresh air, I can play another game and not feel like I am cheating on the game I love, I can actually have a life.
The difference is WoW tries to focus on end game by slowing drop rates and key quests, but really not focusing on the game to get there. LoTRO has succeeded where I never thought any game would return, bringing back the journey.
My estimate is that you can do level 50 in about 4 x 24 hours /played.
Often levelling is found to be slow if the gameplay isn't much to your liking, perhaps the answer is more along those lines?
- nitefly
My experience in WoW is you rush to cap level, because that is where all the "action" is at. Raid ABoss 100 times to gear the guild to Raid BBoss 100 times to gear the guild to Raid CBoss....................... and it goes like that. You can replace aboss, bboss, cboss with faction or key quests for dungeons if you prefer. They create an illusion that content is there but in reality it is the low to rare drop rates that attempt to slow progression down to a snails pace and make you think you are receiving rich content.
My experience with LoTRO is that I can enjoy the journey. From level one I can say that was cool, or I liked that, or that was intense and not feel a need to make five levels so I can come back and wipe the place out. I can explore, craft, farm, quest, and raid and enjoy it all. Then if I level my character and run out of things to do, I can level an alt, work on deeds, explore as much as possible, master crafts, raid for FUN, and do monster play; of which, btw, I try to do while play to level cap to slow my experience down a bit. If anything I could live with Turbine slowing experience down a bit. Then after all of that, if I become bored, which takes a loooooonnnnnnnggggggg time if people breath and pace the game to enjoy every possible facit, I can take time off until the next patch. And not feel like I am missing out on anything. I can go outside and breath the fresh air, I can play another game and not feel like I am cheating on the game I love, I can actually have a life.
The difference is WoW tries to focus on end game by slowing drop rates and key quests, but really not focusing on the game to get there. LoTRO has succeeded where I never thought any game would return, bringing back the journey.
This echoes my feelings toward it.
Things that others have mentioned - needing to get to end-game to be competitive, or to have the best gear, etc. etc. Those seem to be either situational, or only important because the player themself deems them so.
For example, getting to level cap for survival's sake... In no PvP MMO I've played has that ever been a factor - or even common. For one, it's seldom ever a fair fight. I have rarely ever seen someone pick a fight with someone they thought they might lose to. For another, even at level cap, many times you'll have a group of players *lower* level than you who can take you down. Being at level cap perhaps makes you more competitive on a one-on-one situation with someone at or near your level, or a few-on-one if they're lower level and/or perhaps not as good players. But, in my experience, the thought that "If I get to level cap, I'll be less of a target" is fallacious - a false sense of security.
Second... the gear thing. Having to have the best gear and especially have everything match. That's purely player-driven. Never in my experience has it been truly necessary to succeed in the game. It's necessary because the players - often in a very elitist manner - deem it so, for themselves and, in some cases, for others. Unless the design of the game mandates that you need the best gear possible to succeed. In that case, I consider that poor design, forcing the player into a specific play style, or path, that they might not otherwise choose for them self.
I don't know when it happened exactly - almost certain it was to do with WoW - but for a long time, I never saw people so in a hurry to get to end-game as they are now. Or at least not near so much importance was placed on it. The idea of "getting to end-game" in a genre that is, by design, unending since new content is always being added, is just counter-intuitive to me. MMOs are more like a cross-country marathon... not a 20-yard dash.
It kinda reminds me of a very real-life situation I, and I'm sure others, see from time to time; and it always makes me shake my head. You're driving down the street when suddenly another driver races past you, weaving in and out of traffic. You come to the next red light to see them there waiting... They got to exactly where you were going, just faster. Light turns green and off they go! Sure enough, there they are, engine revving, already cursing the next red light for taking too long as you casually pull up next to them. The light turns green just as you get to it, just in time to see them race off to the next red light. And so forth. "Hurry up, then wait... repeatedly" comes to mind.
This to me is very much like the people who race to end game, repeating the same raids over and over, as they wait impatiently for the next new raid to be added, so they can race through and repeat that over and over again, while they wait for the next... wash, rinse, repeat. Meanwhile, the people taking their time experiencing the content along the way never feel that sense of repetition set in, because there's always something else for them to do in the meantime.
Some argue that it's the end-game that really matters; it's where "the good stuff" is. Then I look at the evidence to the contrary... at all the content available along the way, all the options, and how I never seem to see those taking their time to experience more of it complaining about a lack of things to do... I can't help but think somehow that "race to end-game" mentality is the real problem - and a self-perpetuating one at that - not the game design itself.
Speaking for myself, when I read comments about how there's not enough to do in LoTRO, I look at my level (33), then at my ever-full quest log, then at all the quests to do, if I choose, once my active ones are cleared out, then at the traits I want to work on getting, then at the crafting I have yet to do, then at the other activities available to me... and I honestly wonder what game they're talking about. The LoTRO I'm playing has more to do than I could ever hope to before hitting level cap on a single character - possibly even 2.
From level 1 to now, I have *never* found there to be a lack of things to do. Quite the opposite - I'll half-jokingly note from time to time how the number of quests in the game alone must be an OCD nightmare. When the people complaining about not enough to do at end-game respond to such commentary with their self-edifying, chest-pounding comments of how "they're simply better players" and that "the end-game is where the real action is", I just chuckle and think, "yet I'm not the one complaining. So, really, who's kidding who?"
And it's not like I don't play often. I play every night, for at least a few hours. It's just that every minute I'm playing isn't spent grinding away unyieldingly toward end-game. It's not a case of alt-itis. I have a couple alts, at like.. level 7 tops. I created them to try out different classes. It's simply a matter of me choosing to experience what the game has to offer instead of racing past it to that "next red light" at the end of the street.
Take last night for example... I gained hardly any xp on my main - and had a ball doing it. My time was spent doing a couple chicken-play runs (aggro dodging is always a fun challenge to me). Then the rest of my evening - a good 3 hours at least - was spent in PvMP - which brings me to an aside. Despite the claims I've seen of how no one does PvMP because of whatever reason, it was non-stop action the entire time - and still going when I finally logged out at 1AM). I've read how Trolls and Rangers throw things so out of balance that PvMP is "broken", it's not worth playing, etc... Yet, even with at least one of each present for a good amount of time last night, the action never slowed. And that's typically how it is. But anyway...
I think that's the difference right there. Most "end-gamers" I've met aren't satisfied unless they see their xp bars/levels increasing constantly. I don't care if I sit at the same level for a week - as long as I'm having fun in the meantime. And there's more than enough to be done in the game besides questing/leveling to ensure that I do.
To each their own I suppose.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I need to clarify, when I make commentary like my experience in WoW being a race to 70 "because that was were all the action is" was not an attitude to my liking.
It was built that way based on PvP and how in order to compete one needed to be 70 to even survive in relative terms.
I like how LoTRO is.
I like playing a game for leisure sake instead of creating it to be an EA sport.
I like focusing on the journey rather than the end.
I like that it is multifacted and I can work an area that suits me for the evening.
Maybe it is an age thing I don't know, but I am content with LoTRO and in my opinion leveling could be even slower and suit me just fine.
My experience in WoW is you rush to cap level, because that is where all the "action" is at. Raid ABoss 100 times to gear the guild to Raid BBoss 100 times to gear the guild to Raid CBoss....................... and it goes like that. You can replace aboss, bboss, cboss with faction or key quests for dungeons if you prefer. They create an illusion that content is there but in reality it is the low to rare drop rates that attempt to slow progression down to a snails pace and make you think you are receiving rich content.
My experience with LoTRO is that I can enjoy the journey. From level one I can say that was cool, or I liked that, or that was intense and not feel a need to make five levels so I can come back and wipe the place out. I can explore, craft, farm, quest, and raid and enjoy it all. Then if I level my character and run out of things to do, I can level an alt, work on deeds, explore as much as possible, master crafts, raid for FUN, and do monster play; of which, btw, I try to do while play to level cap to slow my experience down a bit. If anything I could live with Turbine slowing experience down a bit. Then after all of that, if I become bored, which takes a loooooonnnnnnnggggggg time if people breath and pace the game to enjoy every possible facit, I can take time off until the next patch. And not feel like I am missing out on anything. I can go outside and breath the fresh air, I can play another game and not feel like I am cheating on the game I love, I can actually have a life.
The difference is WoW tries to focus on end game by slowing drop rates and key quests, but really not focusing on the game to get there. LoTRO has succeeded where I never thought any game would return, bringing back the journey.
This echoes my feelings toward it.
Things that others have mentioned - needing to get to end-game to be competitive, or to have the best gear, etc. etc. Those seem to be either situational, or only important because the player themself deems them so.
For example, getting to level cap for survival's sake... In no PvP MMO I've played has that ever been a factor - or even common. For one, it's seldom ever a fair fight. I have rarely ever seen someone pick a fight with someone they thought they might lose to. For another, even at level cap, many times you'll have a group of players *lower* level than you who can take you down. Being at level cap perhaps makes you more competitive on a one-on-one situation with someone at or near your level, or a few-on-one if they're lower level and/or perhaps not as good players. But, in my experience, the thought that "If I get to level cap, I'll be less of a target" is fallacious - a false sense of security.
Second... the gear thing. Having to have the best gear and especially have everything match. That's purely player-driven. Never in my experience has it been truly necessary to succeed in the game. It's necessary because the players - often in a very elitist manner - deem it so, for themselves and, in some cases, for others. Unless the design of the game mandates that you need the best gear possible to succeed. In that case, I consider that poor design, forcing the player into a specific play style, or path, that they might not otherwise choose for them self.
I don't know when it happened exactly - almost certain it was to do with WoW - but for a long time, I never saw people so in a hurry to get to end-game as they are now. Or at least not near so much importance was placed on it. The idea of "getting to end-game" in a genre that is, by design, unending since new content is always being added, is just counter-intuitive to me. MMOs are more like a cross-country marathon... not a 20-yard dash.
It kinda reminds me of a very real-life situation I, and I'm sure others, see from time to time; and it always makes me shake my head. You're driving down the street when suddenly another driver races past you, weaving in and out of traffic. You come to the next red light to see them there waiting... They got to exactly where you were going, just faster. Light turns green and off they go! Sure enough, there they are, engine revving, already cursing the next red light for taking too long as you casually pull up next to them. The light turns green just as you get to it, just in time to see them race off to the next red light. And so forth. "Hurry up, then wait... repeatedly" comes to mind.
This to me is very much like the people who race to end game, repeating the same raids over and over, as they wait impatiently for the next new raid to be added, so they can race through and repeat that over and over again, while they wait for the next... wash, rinse, repeat. Meanwhile, the people taking their time experiencing the content along the way never feel that sense of repetition set in, because there's always something else for them to do in the meantime.
Some argue that it's the end-game that really matters; it's where "the good stuff" is. Then I look at the evidence to the contrary... at all the content available along the way, all the options, and how I never seem to see those taking their time to experience more of it complaining about a lack of things to do... I can't help but think somehow that "race to end-game" mentality is the real problem - and a self-perpetuating one at that - not the game design itself.
Speaking for myself, when I read comments about how there's not enough to do in LoTRO, I look at my level (33), then at my ever-full quest log, then at all the quests to do, if I choose, once my active ones are cleared out, then at the traits I want to work on getting, then at the crafting I have yet to do, then at the other activities available to me... and I honestly wonder what game they're talking about. The LoTRO I'm playing has more to do than I could ever hope to before hitting level cap on a single character - possibly even 2.
From level 1 to now, I have *never* found there to be a lack of things to do. Quite the opposite - I'll half-jokingly note from time to time how the number of quests in the game alone must be an OCD nightmare. When the people complaining about not enough to do at end-game respond to such commentary with their self-edifying, chest-pounding comments of how "they're simply better players" and that "the end-game is where the real action is", I just chuckle and think, "yet I'm not the one complaining. So, really, who's kidding who?"
And it's not like I don't play often. I play every night, for at least a few hours. It's just that every minute I'm playing isn't spent grinding away unyieldingly toward end-game. It's not a case of alt-itis. I have a couple alts, at like.. level 7 tops. I created them to try out different classes. It's simply a matter of me choosing to experience what the game has to offer instead of racing past it to that "next red light" at the end of the street.
Take last night for example... I gained hardly any xp on my main - and had a ball doing it. My time was spent doing a couple chicken-play runs (aggro dodging is always a fun challenge to me). Then the rest of my evening - a good 3 hours at least - was spent in PvMP - which brings me to an aside. Despite the claims I've seen of how no one does PvMP because of whatever reason, it was non-stop action the entire time - and still going when I finally logged out at 1AM). I've read how Trolls and Rangers throw things so out of balance that PvMP is "broken", it's not worth playing, etc... Yet, even with at least one of each present for a good amount of time last night, the action never slowed. And that's typically how it is. But anyway...
I think that's the difference right there. Most "end-gamers" I've met aren't satisfied unless they see their xp bars/levels increasing constantly. I don't care if I sit at the same level for a week - as long as I'm having fun in the meantime. And there's more than enough to be done in the game besides questing/leveling to ensure that I do.
To each their own I suppose.
That was too good to not quote again!I couldn't agree more.
Seems fine to me, combat seems really slow though.
If its real, OMG! I mean, if anything is wrong with LOTRO its the levelling is WAY too frigging fast! Even a friend of mine, used to WOW said LOTRO levelling is too fast and easy, and that means something! I mean, I am rly no hardcore advocate, I whined about the steep levelling of the high levels in VG and EQ2, but LOTRO? Come on! Thats not slow.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert