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I will no longer pay for a game client...
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90% of mmo have some form of trial to see if you like it or not....
I't's been my experience that most new games do not offer a trial, and as my preference is to join a game from the begining so I can help to develop the community from very early on it essentially leaves no options but to keep paying for a game that fulfills what I'm looking for.
But again, what is wrong with the idea of a free cleint download with a slight increase to the monthly fee (and with this idea there would be no "free first month")? The current standard can leave us being taken advantage of by developers, so as a consumer I think this helps to ensure minimal lose while the developers still get something.
Is that not a fair solution?
if you wanna be there from the start..youve gotta be willing to pay and take risks of it being a crappy game
Well, that's exactly what I meant when I said I currently have no options. I think my solution, which you keep ignoring, is beneficial to both us as consumers and the developers.
Why is minimizing the risk a bad thing?
It never fails to amaze me that some people have the idea that companies should only charge enough to cover their cost. They appear to think that making a profit is somehow wrong. Game companies are not "non-profit" organizations. They exist to make profit. They do not exist to provide you with un-ending low cost or free entertainment.
I can see some CEO saying at the company meeting, "We'll be cutting salaries for everyone. You'll have to go from 70k to 35k per year because little Johnny wants to only pay $20 for the box and does not want a monthly fee. Remember, we are here to make little Johnny happy"
Companies charge as much as they think customers will be willing to pay. It's that simple. If Guild Wars thought they could make more money charging $15/mo, then they would. Some bean counter there thought they'd make their best profit under their current fee structure. They are not being altruistic.
Some people like to engage in gambling as their entertainment. Others can't afford it and look elsewhere for entertainment. Some people cannot afford P2P online games. They should look elsewhere for their entertainment. If $60 for a box and $15/mo is too expensive for you, why aren't you working on getting to a better position in life?
I guess it's like those who decide to make a bunch of babies at an early age and then complain about the crappy life they have because they can't go to college and they can't find a better job. The problem is not the cost of the games, it's simply that some are not yet ready to afford them.
The MMO market has been growing and good games are profitable. So the problem is not the game cost. The problem is that a few folks want to engage in entertainment they cannot afford. When game companies outprice themselves, the games won't sell. The market won't grow.
Finally, most games will have trials. Stop worrying about being there the day the game opens and wait for the trial. Try the open betas. Wait for the reviews. The reviews are most helpful for those who cannot afford to take risk. Most bad games are well known in advance of their opening. But "fans" like to be stupid and support bad games simply because they cannot admit that they've spent a year or two promoting something they've never played based simply on a dream some developer put out.
QFT.
Well said.
This is exactly what I don't understand. Do you buy other games (non-MMO)? How long do they typically last you... 1 month... 2 months?
Average game costs $50 or $60 and lasts you 1 or 2 months. Average MMO game client costs $50 and lasts you 1 month or pay $65 and get two months. IT'S THE SAME COST!!! Why should the MMO be cheaper since it took longer and cost more to develop?
This is not an issue if $50 is a lot of money, it's why do you think 1 month of MMO play should be free (or $15 if you are actually willing to pay the monthly fee) while any other game should cost $50 or $60?
Assuming a game company has good lawyers, you're never paying for a game client. You're actually paying for a fee for an activation key -- the software is merely the interface to access the service.
As for "15.00 is the standard", well, it's up to you to decide if it's worthwhile to pay it but there's no way you can dictate how much a company should charge. The reality is that a business is out to make money and making games is a good market.
The thing is, you DO have options, you are choosing to not use them.
You have the option to pay.
You have the option to not pay, and not play as result.
You have the option to play an existing free-to-play mmo or game.
You have the option to play a single player game.
You CHOSE instead, to not make use of any option here, and would rather make a post where you complain about monthly fees and client costs.
Thats your perogative my man, but don't fall back on a cop out response like saying how you don't have any options, because clearly you do and just choose to not make use of them, because of your preference to not pay and/or risk finding out you might not like something.
But with so many MMO's on the market there should be some kind of competetive pricing right? I have no problem with companies making profit but there comes a point when value should become more important to the consumer. At least SoE kind of offers that in their Station pass, but that is quantity rather then quality IMO.
Some people seem to be looking at it from the perspective of if you can't afford it then don't play it, but I'd rather look at it in terms of getting the most value out of the product I buy.
But with so many MMO's on the market there should be some kind of competetive pricing right? I have no problem with companies making profit but there comes a point when value should become more important to the consumer. At least SoE kind of offers that in their Station pass, but that is quantity rather then quality IMO.
Some people seem to be looking at it from the perspective of if you can't afford it then don't play it, but I'd rather look at it in terms of getting the most value out of the product I buy.
Value is determined by the consumer -- should a mercedes benz cost only $12,000 because I'd drive it 1 every two weeks (like my hyundai)? I wish, but that's not reality. Companies have set out an expectation for the cost of their service in terms of recuperating cost and making profit. If you aren't deriving enough value, then you should be playing something else.
But with so many MMO's on the market there should be some kind of competetive pricing right? I have no problem with companies making profit but there comes a point when value should become more important to the consumer. At least SoE kind of offers that in their Station pass, but that is quantity rather then quality IMO.
Some people seem to be looking at it from the perspective of if you can't afford it then don't play it, but I'd rather look at it in terms of getting the most value out of the product I buy.
Companies compete on a number of different levels based on where the market is at a given time. Right now companies compete for number of subscriptions. The price is not as important as the quantity of customers. They have found the right price level that won't drive away most customers.
You want to make it about price because you have a personal issue with the price. That is of little to no concern to the gaming company. There is a huge potential market out there. WoW proved that all you need is the right combination of features and a game that does not intrude too much on the real life of the customer. Build it and they will come. They don't care about the price within currently accepted ranges.
So, no, there does not need to be competitive pricing beyond what already exist. Customers are telling them that they need to compete better on other issues such as casual play, game features, playstyle options, customer service, stabiilty, polish, etc.
I am on a very limited budget and, for me, $50 is a lot of money.
That being considered, I don't just buy the latest game to come out and hope I like it. I follow games development and become an expert in all available material of design documentation, forum gameplay, news articles and such.
I read previews and reviews and seek out demos wherever possible.
I do this to minimize the loss of spending that much on a game I may not like.
Caveat emptor. Buyer beware.
This is my responsibility as a consumer. I certainly wouldn't go out and buy the newest mercedes just because it's a mercedes. It may not have the features I 'require' to make it enjoyable for me. It's the same for a game. That's why I like to test drive first.
MMO test driving can often be related to open beta where they are primarily load testing the servers.
I seek out these betas as my test drive. If a game doesn't offer one or I can't get into it, I pass on that game till there is a free trial or at least get to read plenty of reviews.
One doesn't have to like the current pricing scheme of mmo's, but you should at least understand it.
When I do buy a game, I often enjoy it for over a year. Frankly, it IS just about the cheapest form of entertainment I can buy versus other traditional forms such as movies, bowling, eating out, etc.
I get alot of value out of the games I buy and play them alot. The reason I get so much value is because I researched and know what I'm getting into. I didn't just see and ad and visit their website for 10 minutes and make a decision to buy the game.
<Mod edit>
I think you meant "caveat emptor", let the buyer beware. Carpe DIem is seize the day ( ' ;
Otherwise, well said ( ' :
It is Caveat Emptor not Carpe diem which is seize the day.
Cutting Box costs equals two things.
A: Lower quality games. Without the initial box sales to ease the pain of 10-50 million dollar budgets...there won't BE those kinds of budgets. There will also be FAR less investor interest...and the guys in suits want money NOW...not 10 years...maybe. At the end of the day, smaller budgets equal smaller quantity or quality. I think some of us fail to realize that most of the budget is spent on the actual game...advertising isn't as big a chunk as some of you think. Not in THIS genre, there are just too many ways to start a free, or near free, internet firestorm about the game.
B: Tons if ingame ad revenue to make up for lost box sales. That or item shops. One thing you have to realize is that, even with 200K subs, the company is only drawing around 36 mil in subs for a year. Now, that may SOUND like a lot (and its no small feat...getting 200K subs means the game is pretty freakin awesome) but when you consider that most of these MMO's cost more than that to make...you can see that they will sit in the red for an entire year. That doesn't take into account the server costs, the GM costs, the updates cost, the developers paychecks to keep making stuff, the CEO's cut, or basically any one of the few thousand average business expenditures that have to be accounted for. Truth be told, with standard monthly fees and no box sale....the company stands the chance of being red for 2 or more years. THAT IS NOT GOOD. In two years a new game can come out...and rip half of your subs away. Its a piss poor model that no one in their right mind would take to.
Box sales are pretty critical to the industry still (or online download fees) because that same 200K in players turns into a quick 10 million in box sales. While 10 million is not the big 36 million of yearly subs....its a quick return to investors on, well....their investment. If a bank invested 20 mill in the project...why...they just got half of that back on release day. That kind of situation is GOOD for the market, it makes them more eager to get involved. We WANT them to be eager to get involved. We also do not want advertising in our pay2play games nor, I suspect, do we want crappier games. If anything, I want more and better games.
I do think that a free trial should be standard...but I also think it should wait until about the third month into release. My reasons for that ARE kind of crooked...I want people who just can't wait to waste money on a game they might not like. If bleeding a handful of impatient morons who couldn't figure out that a game had nothing they would like about it, based on reviews and the tons of media that follow the games, makes one more investor willing to support the creation of a game I DO like...then so be it. Whatever keeps the money coming in so that my market of interest doesn't become a thing of pain and fear to investors is good by me. It how the world works, and I'm adult enough that I can accept that.
I'm going to take a wild guess that the last paragraph was dedicated to me. Thank you.
So when someone says a company should lower it's prices on a product because they cannot afford it. You apparently think it acceptable to suggest the person has not done the same things you have to try to minimize their risk (even though the mentioned doing some of those very things). Yet you feel it unacceptable to suggest the person might be shooting for an entertainment they simply cannot afford at the moment (even though most who want to can afford it).
When someone makes a post like the one I was responding to, they generally are hoping others feel the same way they do and want to generate some support for their position. It is fair game to question the basis of that position. If the person simply does not make enough money, then I see no issue with suggesting that may be the real problem. That is not a putdown and not condescending. It is me suggesting that maybe the person is seeing the problem only from his personal economic viewpoint and it may not be shared by most potential gamers.
But your insults suggest you're not someone who can intelligently argue a position.
I'm going to take a wild guess that the last paragraph was dedicated to me. Thank you.
So when someone says a company should lower it's prices on a product because they cannot afford it. You apparently think it acceptable to suggest the person has not done the same things you have to try to minimize their risk (even though the mentioned doing some of those very things). Yet you feel it unacceptable to suggest the person might be shooting for an entertainment they simply cannot afford at the moment (even though most who want to can afford it).
When someone makes a post like the one I was responding to, they generally are hoping others feel the same way they do and want to generate some support for their position. It is fair game to question the basis of that position. If the person simply does not make enough money, then I see no issue with suggesting that may be the real problem. That is not a putdown and not condescending. It is me suggesting that maybe the person is seeing the problem only from his personal economic viewpoint and it may not be shared by most potential gamers.
But your insults suggest you're not someone who can intelligently argue a position.
No his last paragraph was directed to me, because I stated I have no sympathy for people with money problems.
I did not grow up rich, I grew up poor, very poor.... horribly poor to be honest. My mom raised me and my brother, working 2 minimum wage jobs, and going to school at night to become an RN. My brother and I had to raise ourself over half our life because our father split on us and my mom was busy trying to get an education to better our lives. She eventually became an RN, however I was 17 and brother was 15 at the time so it really only benefited him. I left home at 18 straight into the navy, because it was the only way at the time I could think of to get 2 good paychecks a month and get a free education. I did that 6 years and got a degree in computer science in my 5th year of military duty. I started looking for jobs my last year in and got some really good offers and took one. Now I work at a successful government IT firm in Washington, DC. Married with 3 kids of my own, and bust my ass everyday to be able to give them a nice life.
So don't come at me with the "suckle my left nut " crap. You can't afford a $50.00 retail game box, you don't need to be playing games in the first place, you need to be out getting an education and a job that pays more than 5.75 an hour.
AND
If you a kid making that remark, you have no business even posting on the money aspect of this discussion, put your mom and dad on here who work hard for their money. I would much rather talk to them anyway. If your mom and dad can't afford the $50.00 a game for you.... quite asking them for shit, they have enough on their plate without you asking for game money. Go get a friggin paper route.
Don't you just love 'modedits' that really don't remove the deleted content because everyone quoted it? I know I do.
And sonny, I am older than you.
Since we are comparing numbers, I am 35 and was making 32k/yr in the Orlando, Florida area. I am college educated and my profession was 401(k) administration.
There is something about contracting a terminal illness that tends to mess with your long term goal and financial success.
Currently, I am unemployed due to being terminated illegally under FMLA rules. The DOL, the agency that you file complaints with is woefully understaffed and won't contest this. My other option is to hire a lawyer (with the money I don't have) or let it go, which is really the only option I have. I am currently collecting unemployment as it was determined I was terminated THROUGH NO FAULT OF MY OWN.
My medical bills and Rx exceed $30k year retail and my out of pocket for medical and Rx was over $4k year.
So, that's my sob story. Hope you enjoyed it.
Now to the point. Telling somebody to go back to school and get a better job isn't viable for all of us. I will obtain new employment, but it will be at a significantly less salary. so, yes, finances are important to be and yes you are condescending for saying get a better education.
So now let me be a little condescending to you.
I'd like to thank you for being employed. Quite frankly, you are paying for me now.
You are paying my continuing cobra coverage (about $1000/month)
You are paying my subsidized housing ($500/mo)
You are paying my prescriptions ($3000/month)
That's your tax dollars at work. Thank you
So, yes, I am financially screwed and yes, $50 is alot to me. That is why I listed all those things I do so I don't 'waste' money on a game I may not like which is much more helpful to the OP and others than saying 'get a better job' or 'go back to school' because you are making assumptions about their life as if that is the only solution.
The OP clearly has a mindset of not doing the basic research behind a game and then being disappointed but at least is on the right track of looking for trials or ftp games. That is precisely why I do so much research so I can play a game for a long time and enjoy it.
PS: I'm having steak tonight (also paid for, in part, by your tax dollars)
I do not mind in the least paying for your medical expenses. I actually rather enjoy the thought of helping others. So your welcome and I will continue to help you out until I die. Pretty sure the gov. will take retirement.
I am very sorry that you got let go through corporate hooplah, they are all bastards usually.
Anyway, I am not trying to be condescending, and don't take this the wrong way, but people, not just you but people who say $50 is a lot of money, probably have no business buying them in the first place?
I mean from your story, you have a lot more you should be focused on that an MMO. Like a lawyer to sue your company for firing you falsely? Or maybe putting that $50 bucks away somewhere for that next steak dinner?
I know my meals usually taste better when I know I payed for it and not some poor smuck getting raped by the gov. through tax dollars?
Just a thought.....
I agree with most of what you say. However I wonder about monthly fees needed to maintain the game. NCsoft seems to keep their Guild Wars running and updated with out a monthly fee. It is not the fee so much as the cost of the fee. Do they really need to charge 15 bucks which seems to be the standard. I bet with 10 million players WoW could charge 4.99 a month and still make huge profits.
The base structure in which GW is developed allowed them to minimize their own bandwidth costs. As anyone who plays the game finds out quickly, its really an instanced game and not a seemless world like other MMO's. GW's is Battle.net with the cities acting as the lobby allowing you to socialize with an avatar and not a chat channel. So in many ways, its not an MMORPG, but much more a matchmaking service for an RPG inspired arena combat game. Smart on their part and its proven there is a market. But it should explain some of why they can get away with no fees.
Also, much of the expense post launch is customer service. Whether you feel it is adequate or not, its a large expense to take on.
Honestly, MMO's continue to deliver the best monetary value for gaming. If you play console game mostly, and buy 1 a month, you spend more a year than you will with a subscription based MMO.
I do agree with the notion that paying a full price for the box is a bit of a stretch. I feel we will see this come down over time, but there is an aspect to this that I feel is not understood by the consumer, until they hear it.
Games that are free have a stigma attached to them. They must not be that great if its free. So any company, who spends the money on a AAA MMO project is not wanting to have to face that at launch. It is going to take some of the larger companies to make this step first to help others be able to overcome the stigma. EA with their bew Battlefield Heroes supports this idea and is the first "free" game of quality from a known publisher to be created this way from the ground up. (If there was any others I missed em, so please point me to them as I would love to see them as well.)
On a side note, you are not included in this section, but do you know how many gamers 18+ live at home with mommy and daddy in their basement, fried out of their minds, playing some good ol omg bbq ftw wow while mommy and daddy pay their bills for them and feed them?
A LOT!
Then have the audacity to come in here on mmorpg and whine that they can't afford $50 bucks for a game?
More than you would think, and I have no sympathy for those people what so ever.
Just like it isn't to much to ask they get their lazy butts back in school, (many many ways of doing that) and get normal good paying jobs, so I am not paying for them either on walfare or whatever the case may be?
I have known to many people in my life, that have gotten the crap end of the deal work really hard and make some success in their life. That being said ANYONE can do it, if you have the willpower to make it happen.
If you disagree with the above statement, it means your lazy, and I have no time for you.
Take that as you may.
Wow....just wow...that someone really can be that narrowminded...Incredible. As I stated earlier, go back and live your american dream, with 2.4 kids and 1.8 cars in the garage. And even an adult saying those things. You make me ashamed being one. Condesending little prick you are. That you cant see that people come from different steps in life, and some get dealt some really shitty cards to play with. I had it poor at my younger years aswell, and I have a good income now, but I dont go around looking down at people cause they are poor. That is a shitty attitude you got there pal.
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Grammar nazi's. This one is for you.
Now this is a very intellectual post. Everything stated here is true, it is the basis for GW success, and everything else stated is accurate.
QFT
Then you did not read anything I have said,
Good for you that you have decent income *claps*.
If you read further back, you would have seen that I was dirt poor once to.
I do not look down on those who work hard and help themselves. No such thing as being delt a shitty hand you can't recover from. If your cards are that bad then you aren't attempting to fix them. Your perfectly content with being a lazy, waste of space.
In America EVERYONE has the opportunity to live the american dream with 2.4 kids and 1.8 cars, just takes a little work on your part.
If you can't achieve this, your not trying hard enough. Some of the greatest success stories in the world all started out WAY worse than any of us. Oprah had no running water growing up, and is now the 1st or 2nd richest woman in the world.... yep WORLD.
So you telling me I am being condescending, when this woman couldn't even flush a toilet and now makes more in a day than you will make your entire life.....
Stop dude, it doesn't fly with me.
If your that unhappy with your education level, job, pay, kids, god, wife, house. FIX IT, and quit saying you can't afford $50 dollars for a retail game.
You make your own destiny, I didn't do it for you. I'm not holding you back, you are.
Different walks of life...... get serious, it doesn't matter what race you are, or your sex, it doesn't even matter where you grew up. Suburbs, Country, City, Ghetto.... None of that matters at all for someone who is determined to hit life head on and bend the world around them to their will. Stop playing the victim and do something about it.
And americans wonder why people dont like em??? Let me tell you something, race does matter, sex does matter and social background definitely does matter. They shouldn't but they do. That a minority is a success story doesnt make them the rule. Some people just have a limited list of choices they can make. Do you go around looking down at the homeless cause they are homeless? It is easy to sit there, at the top giving a flying crap in the poor. They've experienced so many blows in life that they have given up. Do you look down at crackheads and addicts cause they use drugs? Most got tricked at a young age, or just where too curious and didnt know better. They go around today, most of the time oblivious at their surroundings and at their clear moments they see their friends die, one at a time. Should we not take pity on them and try to help them? You really come around as a person with no empathy at all.
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Grammar nazi's. This one is for you.
in the states, that's what we call a Republican.
/shudder
heh...