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Challenging SOE's EULA
ArcAngel3
Member Posts: 2,931
"You understand that we may update or otherwise enhance the Game and/or the Software at any time..."
This has been quoted to justify the NGE, among other things.
I ask you if any reasonable person would interpret the following actions of SOE as examples of updating or enhancing the game:
deletion of over 20 professions,
rendering people completely unable to move or chat,
making heal abilities heal enemies,
advertising and selling items and features in an expansion, and then announcing their deletion the day after payment was received--fraud allegation,
rendering people unable to interact with virtual pets,
deletion of in some cases two years worth of quest progress, along with deletion of the quest content from the game,
rendering items in the previous paid for expansion, Rage of the Wookies, relatively useless by deleting the professions they were made for.
Yeah, I'd love to see someone in SOE's home jurisdiction challenge this use of their EULA.
Comments
As an aside and not really only specific to SOE.
Many companies have TOS and EULA that when push comes to shove usually arent worth the paper they are written on because they are far to liberal and get changed OFTEN.
This goes for SOE or any other gaming company and any company that has a TOS that kinda is far to wide and liberal. I personaly would not bother with stuff like this because in the scheme of life the universe and everything its just extremely trivial , but anyhow I just thought I would post a comment on the fact that most TOS and EULA aren't even legal . I have had to challenge a "contract" that was one sided at one point in time on a more serious issue that was easily won it really didn't even need a lawyer. However having had to deal with REAL serious legal stuff I would not bother anyone with this, but your welcome to sink the money into it for a lawyer who will have to be paid well. You would probably win .. what you will win would be a few hundred bucks for the subscriptions, possibly a refund for the original software ... Its not like you can make a case for "pain and anguish" or "mental suffering" here., but if someone has money to burn they would probably win...
I would too. So they could find themselves laughed out of court by SOEs' lawyers, and the issue would be closed.
Seriously, all I ever see is "Someone needs to do this to SOE, someone needs to do that to SOE". If someone was going to do it ( or even had a snowballs' chance in hell of winning if they did do it ), they would have by now.
The pity party's over, move on.
By the way, read the box. Where it says: "GAMEPLAY MAY CHANGE................".
Actually Zorvan, that does not cover actual game play change, but I've been through all this before. Here's a link if you want to read it: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/1872300#1872300 .
Thing is though as i understand PC software you never really own it do you? just a licence to play/use the software so if this is true they can and do pretty much anything they like to any piece of software.
And Dracis refering to your other post sadly it does cover the gameplay maay change issue..
Read the part in red.."we may enhance gameplay" pretty much cover the NGE..i.e new game enhancments,now given its a POS is another matter but hats off to SOE they covered tthier asses well with it tbh,mainly becuase the wording of tthe agreement is so vague they could aply it to anything
If that would be the case you can burry any MMORPG, it is just unsave to let your created data on someone else place he has all the right to do anything with it.
Let say i developed an art software used by artist but all their work can only be accessed through that software saved on my servers. I am changing the software rendering their art useless, pointless , lowering quility. Is this legit ?
If nothing else i would have gained several lifetime enemies.... believe me..
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
You're assuming there hasn't been out any of court settlements.
Let's face it if someone did file a complaint about SoE and in return SoE offered cash instead of going to court I'd bet that nearly 100% of people would take the quick cash.
SOE's EULA would be a nightmare to defend.
Asserting that MMO publishers can't make any changes to a game would be unreasonable, and that argument would be rejected. It is standard practice that reasonable changes can be made to games.
The argument would be that the CUNGE was an UNREASONABLE change, because they altered the original game, as bought, beyond recognition. That has a decent shot of sticking.
As for the "gameplay may change" warning on the box, that applies to the ESRB rating of Teen, warning kiddies that they may see a F-bomb in game. If they don't run that disclaimer they'd have to rate the game M for mature.
"If I had a penny for everytime a frustrated fanboi hits the report button, I could end world hunger."
Once again, and please let this be for the last time, the statement, "Gameplay may change during online play", does not include the changes of the NGE, the part of the EULA I put in red does. There is a difference. The warning about gameplay changes online is basically stating that they can't control what other people do, say, or how they act online.
Please read the entire thread that I linked.
Edit* Just so you know, I'm not defending any game companies EULA. All of them are horribly against customers and I am very much in favor of some one eventually challenging them. What I'm against is the ignorance of the players who think that broad statements like, "Game play may change with online play" allow gaming companies to do whatever they want, whenever they want, because it simply is not true. I'm not trying to argue or flame, I'm trying to educate.
Once again, and please let this be for the last time, the statement, "Gameplay may change during online play", does not include the changes of the NGE, the part of the EULA I put in red does. There is a difference. The warning about gameplay changes online is basically stating that they can't control what other people do, say, or how they act online.
Please read the entire thread that I linked.
Edit* Just so you know, I'm not defending any game companies EULA. All of them are horribly against customers and I am very much in favor of some one eventually challenging them. What I'm against is the ignorance of the players who think that broad statements like, "Game play may change with online play" allow gaming companies to do whatever they want, whenever they want, because it simply is not true. I'm not trying to argue or flame, I'm trying to educate.
May this sentence apply to the NGE about "system requirements may change" , in the red....
"You understand that online games evolve over time and, accordingly, system requirements to play the Game may change over time."
The PC has to be built for NGE running as an enjoybale MMO and a piece you want to be part of ...and want it run on you local PC ...lol
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
Actually that's part of it, there's more and I understand you're trying to be funny ( or at least I think you are. I have a spring cold so please forgive me and my obvious Nyquil abuse ), I'm just tired of people thinking game companies can get away with anything because of certain broad statements.
Actually that's part of it, there's more and I understand you're trying to be funny ( or at least I think you are. I have a spring cold so please forgive me and my obvious Nyquil abuse ), I'm just tired of people thinking game companies can get away with anything because of certain broad statements.
huh am i more subtly then i thought i am :P
i 100% agree with you honest.
It is ridiculous to hide behind statements like that in EULA , such statements can be read in 1000 products of 1000 diferent companys. There is much ...much more needed to cover things like the NGE.
get well soon.
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
The funny thing is, there are others within the industry that see this and are working to change it, along with others like the ECA. I'm actually very much in favor of a "Players Bill of Rights" at this point. We've seen alot of games and not just MMO's anymore, come out with shoddy work and in an unfinished state. I think it will eventually happen as we see huge game companies like EA try to have a monopoly on certain kinds of games. It's just sad that many people don't see the huge issues with EULA's, RMT, and some of the other problems that are facing the game industry today. All we can do until then is try to inform and vote with our wallets.
There is no amount of EULA verbage that can take away a persons right to sue for damages. Any veteran could contest that the NGE is in fact, a NEW GAME. The code is different. The core gameplay became a new and different game.
So SOE didn't enhance the game they coded a new one. However, their legal problems are glaring when they sold an expansion that was advertised and marketed for the original version of SWG then turn around and launch a new game (NGE) in its place after they sold said expansion.
That is fraud. Pure misrepresentation and no jury of reasonably-minded people are going to accept their EULA as an excuse to commit fraud.
Tecmo Bowl.
Yes the CU/NGE pissed me off. I've never found a MMO I've enjoyed since to be honest.
I've even been curious about taking another company to court for not enforcing their eula/tos. You know when you see people using 3rd party programs etc that are all supposed to be in violation.. well I've often wondered if I could go after them on a breach of contract lawsuit.. claiming that these documents are a contract and that the company has to hold up their end.
In the end.. I don't have any interest in courts. When companies are willing to flush customers away.. or lose them by not enforcing their own rules (aka not banning long term exploiters etc)
Well at some point I see more drama than I do on TV. This optional form of entertainment seems to become a lot less of an option I'm going to consider.
I certainly never thought when I bought my C64 in 1982.. that I'd come to a point of seeing people or myself want to sue companies. I bought a computer and games.. to have fun... which I don't seem to be having to much of lately.
Short version...
At some point I think its just easier to walk away. If enough people did that.. then things would change.
We already have the power we just don't choose to use it. The power you ask? None of these companies can exist without us.. the consumer. They aren't doing you a favor allowing you to access their server.. or license for a product.
They are supposedly trying to make a profit from our $$.
If the best companies can do is crap on their customers.. stop giving them money.
Especially these companies.. they aren't selling you things you can't live without.
((This is why I always laught when a developer threatens to ban people or does because they posted about the NGE or a similar thing... See how well that works out with... 0 subscribers))
this is why i hate $OE ea micro$oft nintendo and the other ilk. none of them care about us gamers and rather they care about making money.
ea has ripped people off time and time again. and turns everything they get their hands on into some madden/sims clone.
$OE do i even need to say anything?
micro$oft up's the price of their xbox titles and their new system breaks down ever 2 months.
nintendo just got way too kiddie.
and i look around at new mmo's coming out and all of them are the same. oh yeah age of conan has blood and naked people yay i can see all the 14 year olds flocking to that game. a game that at one time was going to be a hardcore sandbox pvp game. same with warhammer. same with alot of mmo's as now everyone wants to be the new warcraft.
and still i would bet good money that all of them are planning their own nge's their own ways of upsetting the players to go after the warcraft people.
it is time for those making the games to make the games the way we the players want them. if we say we want pre-cu we should get pre-cu. if we say don't nerf something then it shouldn't be nerfed. the devs work for us we don't work for them and it is time they understand that.
and they will once swg rolls back or shuts down.
updating usually implies "upgrade" but to play devil's advocate, it could be taken literally as any sort of change. Could it not?
Yeah because they're in business to loose money, thats for sure.
Account has been stolen, why would someone want to steal my account?
Yeah because they're in business to loose money, thats for sure.
Build a good game and the people wll come. Build a crappy game and all you'll get is some people playing it because it's the only Star Wars MMO.
You'll never have a "blockbuster" MMO without making a quality product.
I agree with you on the enhancement of code part, but we are only part right. The same base code is still there and still used, just not all of the things that used to be there are compliled anymore. I know, I know, but this is where any law suit could get stuck.
As far as the fraud part, I also agree, but remember, they allowed folks to get a refund for the expansion. If they had not, then yes SOE would have been in major trouble. At this time though, I think it's way too late to even think about suing SOE. Any judge and/or jury would wonder why it took someone so long to do anything about it.
Yeah because they're in business to loose money, thats for sure.
Build a good game and the people wll come. Build a crappy game and all you'll get is some people playing it because it's the only Star Wars MMO.
You'll never have a "blockbuster" MMO without making a quality product.
Or you can take the SOE approach and just buy a bunch of failing games for dirt cheap and put them on your station (life support) pass. Quanity over quality.
I didn't really care for SWG before the NGE, liked it even less when I tried it again after the NGE. However, I do think that if there was any way to get money out of SOE for the changes they made it would have been done by now. Even if as said previously , someone sued them and they settled to keep them quiet, lawsuits are public record, so even if it was only filed it would be in the public domain and I'm sure with as rabid an anti SOE community we have on these forums someone would have dug it up.
The most reasonable assumption, in my opinion, is that there is no case. I mean come on we have lawers that will sue McDonalds for "making their clients fat." So I find it hard to believe that if they thought they had even any remote chance of winning, there isn't some lawyer out there who would have taken the case on a contingency basis if for no other reason than to get a class action suit, which is where the big bucks are for civil lawyers. So the fact that it hasn't happened, leads me to doubt that there's a lawyer out there who thinks what SOE did was illegal, otherwise they would be all over it. I mean who wouldn't want the potential of over 100k possible clients? That's too much to pass up if their is an actual winnable legal argument to be made. But that's just my two cents, I could be wrong.
Also, I suppose that one could make the argument that someone has merely threatened SOE with a lawsuit and got them to cave, but that seems a little far fetched to me, especially if it was only 1 client, because if i was that lawyer as soon as that settlement was made for that 1, I would be looking for the other 99,999+ out there.
EDIT: Wall of text FTL
I agree with you on the enhancement of code part, but we are only part right. The same base code is still there and still used, just not all of the things that used to be there are compliled anymore. I know, I know, but this is where any law suit could get stuck.
As far as the fraud part, I also agree, but remember, they allowed folks to get a refund for the expansion. If they had not, then yes SOE would have been in major trouble. At this time though, I think it's way too late to even think about suing SOE. Any judge and/or jury would wonder why it took someone so long to do anything about it.
We have all gone over this many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many times.
No one has done anything about any of this because you can't. Here are the reasons no veteran has a case against SOE.
1. Game Change Issue ie. Not the same game argument - FALSE
Name of game in 2003 : Star Wars Galaxies : An Empire Divided, Name of game in present time 2008 : Star Wars Galaxies : An Empire Divided. (This would be the same, making it the same game). Core programming code is the same - Core world is the same - only game play and mechanics were changed.
2. Implementation of the CU / NGE - FALSE
SOE/LA along with every other producer of MMO's on the planet reserve the right to patch, change, replace, delete, update, or massacre anything that THEY own. Pay very special attention to the THEY part.
When a consumer purchases a PC game from the store, this is what the consumer is actually paying for. The plastic CD's inside the box, which allows you to install said product. You get a digital CD key allowing you access into the hosting companies servers as proof that you paid the fee to do so. Oh and a manual usually. That is all, that is the extent of your bought and paid for property from whatever company of your choosing.
Any and all virtual property which includes, your characters, any and all equipment attained playing said game, the countless life spent playing the game, anything inside the server, to include source code of the game, all game play and mechanics, EVERYTHING you can see with your eyes while playing, belongs to said company. Since you never had a right to any of this virtual property to begin with, The company can change, upgrade, remove/delete anything they choose at any given time. They do not even have to notify the consumers playing the game, tho most do ahead of time.
This being said, the CU and NGE were all decisions made and implemented by SOE/LA which were well within their rights to do so as the sole owner of this virtual property. I haven't seen an online game in the last 10 years that didn't say right there on the back of the box before you purchase it.
"Game experience may change during online play".
You agreed to this the minute you handed it to the nerd behind the Gamestop counter.
3. Fraud through bait n switch with ToOW - TRUE and FALSE
Though SOE were clearly in the wrong with the bait/switch of the ToOW expansion, not given ample warning of the changes to come before the money exchanged hands, they did however offer anyone not lazy enough to get a refund their money back.
If was very cloak n dagger of them to try to pull this off, but at least they admitted to the tactic, and offered refunds, putting them in the clear for any further legal matters in the future.
To make an already long story short, the EULA may be garbage all across the board with MMO's but SOE wouldn't even need to bring up a EULA in court to beat anyone who would challenge them. All they need is the document that states they own SWG and everything that goes along with it. You go and try to prove to a jury that SOE took some "virtual" property from you or wasted your "virtual" time, and beating SOE will be the least of your worries. You might instead try to figure out how your going to get out of the straight jacket they are going put you in. It will be like trying to sue Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.
The very sad part is here we are 3 years after the fact. There have been a plethora of games hit the market in 3 years.... and people are still crying over poor SWG. Let the game die.
SW : The Force Unleashed looks promising, get yourself a xbox360 or PS3 and shoot some lighting out your fingers, have a coke and a smile, and just let it go.
With as much energy as SWG vets spend QQing over the death of a game, or how to punish SOE, you could have all banded together and made your own damn SW game by now.
Just a quick note, once again, the part in red does not allow them to make any changes they want. This must be the tenth time I've had to state this. That statement, once again, refers to that they can not control what others, do, say, or how they act online. There are parts in the EULA, which is posted online for most every MMO, that allow them to change the game as they see fit.
Even still my point is, they do not need anyone's permission to change anything in a game they own as property.
I would never allow you to come to my house and tell me how to landscape my yard.
Same thing applies here. They own it, we do not. They can do what they want, you either play in it, or get out.
Think of it like a HUGE sandbox.
SOE built a huge sandbox, with sand cities, and sand people, with cute little sand rifles....
They invited everyone to play in their sandbox, and in the beginning everyone had fun in the sand....
One day it rained, and the water changed the way the sand cities looked, and the people didn't move as well because sand gets hard when it is wet, and the guns didn't quite work as well as they use to.
So a lot of people didn't want to play in SOE's sandbox anymore and left.
The other's stayed and tried to make due with the wet sand.
Many years after the rain, the kids that left the sandbox, still hold a grudge against SOE because of the rain. SOE didn't care however and just kept making mud pies.
When you think of it like this, it all seems really silly, which is exactly how it is. SILLY
It's SOE's sandbox, you can either play in it, with all the rain and mud, or get out. Just walk away from the sandbox, don't look back, just keep walking.
It is very simple, tho people seem to want to make it so so so very hard.