I would too. So they could find themselves laughed out of court by SOEs' lawyers, and the issue would be closed.
You're assuming there hasn't been out any of court settlements.
Let's face it if someone did file a complaint about SoE and in return SoE offered cash instead of going to court I'd bet that nearly 100% of people would take the quick cash.
That's true, except a lawsuit like that would have made it to the press or the game community before it was dreopped into settlement.
It's SOE's sandbox, you can either play in it, with all the rain and mud, or get out. Just walk away from the sandbox, don't look back, just keep walking.
Most excellent dumbed down descriptive of the whole thing. As for the swg vets who keep crying about the game that was and how SoE (or rather LA) managed it.. fine, if you don't like how they handle it's mmos... go ahead and make your own, and handle it how ever you want. What, no one is stopping you.
And in 60 years, when some of you are old and grey, you will be posting in the virtual blogsphere full 3d environment that the internet will become, and whine about how soe broke your game when you were young, and everyone will ignore the bitter old avatar posters.
I would too. So they could find themselves laughed out of court by SOEs' lawyers, and the issue would be closed.
You're assuming there hasn't been out any of court settlements.
Let's face it if someone did file a complaint about SoE and in return SoE offered cash instead of going to court I'd bet that nearly 100% of people would take the quick cash.
That's true, except a lawsuit like that would have made it to the press or the game community before it was dreopped into settlement.
I was going to say the same thing, If anyone honestly believes as big as this whole SWG thing is with people, that SOE/LA could keep a settlement secret from the press and it wouldn't be blasted all over the internet and news before the ink on the check was dry... has some screws loose.
I was going to say the same thing, If anyone honestly believes as big as this whole SWG thing is with people, that SOE/LA could keep a settlement secret from the press and it wouldn't be blasted all over the internet and news before the ink on the check was dry... has some screws loose.
I doubt SoE (or rather LA) would settle if someone were to try to sue them due to their game changing. The game clearly states "online play may change" all over the place, and the eula of course has provisions for that. Why would soe settle out to someone for any reason? Its well within its rights to do whatever it wishes within the game.
But I am sure it makes you all feel better to lash out. Most do at some point or other.. although usually at a very early stage in life.
Now perhaps if the swgvet crowd didnt act the way it does (generally, not anyone specifically), perhaps the rest of the gamer world would take them seriously, including say.. the developers of mmos. After all.. why would they develop a game for people like that, when there is a much stabler, kinder market in crapfeast mmos?
I was going to say the same thing, If anyone honestly believes as big as this whole SWG thing is with people, that SOE/LA could keep a settlement secret from the press and it wouldn't be blasted all over the internet and news before the ink on the check was dry... has some screws loose.
I doubt SoE (or rather LA) would settle if someone were to try to sue them due to their game changing. The game clearly states "online play may change" all over the place, and the eula of course has provisions for that. Why would soe settle out to someone for any reason? Its well within its rights to do whatever it wishes within the game.
But I am sure it makes you all feel better to lash out. Most do at some point or other.. although usually at a very early stage in life.
LOL Wait what!?
Pssst. Quick forum tip... Start at page 1 move ............ to last post... read everything in between. Then read your post, and you will understand, why I have no idea what the hell your talking about????
I am not lashing out at anything, Zorvan said that no one has settled with SOE/LA and if they had we would have heard about it, in response to something someone else stated.
I simply agreed that if this ever did happen.... we would have heard of it, as I also know, it will never happen.
I would too. So they could find themselves laughed out of court by SOEs' lawyers, and the issue would be closed.
You're assuming there hasn't been out any of court settlements.
Let's face it if someone did file a complaint about SoE and in return SoE offered cash instead of going to court I'd bet that nearly 100% of people would take the quick cash.
That's true, except a lawsuit like that would have made it to the press or the game community before it was dreopped into settlement.
I was going to say the same thing, If anyone honestly believes as big as this whole SWG thing is with people, that SOE/LA could keep a settlement secret from the press and it wouldn't be blasted all over the internet and news before the ink on the check was dry... has some screws loose.
I don't know. Would a news site care about a $5000 settlement?
Or perhaps the persons involved would be unable to discuss the case as part of the settlement. I'd think that settlements like these would be to keep people quiet so others do not do the same.
Bro no offense, but in today's age, people can't fart and not be noticed.
We can't turn on the t.v with out having to watch a blonde psycho shave her head, or another blonde bang some dude out in a hotel room.
No way in the world, 2 powerhouse companies SOE and Lucas Arts, make a under the table $5000.00 settlement and someone not spill the beans.
The lawyer, the clerk of court who stamps the ruling, the many people handling the sheet of paper. The little old lady that sits across from the courthouse everyday feeding the birds so she has to juicy gossip everyday.
Someone.... somewhere.... Always talks.
It's the number reason the mob retains a hitman at all times.
No one in the year 2008 knows how to spell quiet or secret, much less do it.
If there was even a hint of a SOE/LA lawyer walking toward a courtroom, Every News van, game mag, newspaper, and website owner would be blasting that shit full stream before he hit the first step.
I doubt SoE (or rather LA) would settle if someone were to try to sue them due to their game changing. The game clearly states "online play may change" all over the place, and the eula of course has provisions for that. Why would soe settle out to someone for any reason? Its well within its rights to do whatever it wishes within the game. But I am sure it makes you all feel better to lash out. Most do at some point or other.. although usually at a very early stage in life. Now perhaps if the swgvet crowd didnt act the way it does (generally, not anyone specifically), perhaps the rest of the gamer world would take them seriously, including say.. the developers of mmos. After all.. why would they develop a game for people like that, when there is a much stabler, kinder market in crapfeast mmos?
Who let Dr. Phil in here?
Seriously, there has been many a game dev that has openly said that they didn't want to follow in the footsteps of SWG. Kinda makes you wonder how they know about that. Surely, it was SOE out there admitting their mistake and making ammends with the community at large that clued them in. Hmm, nope. I believe it was the audience that they shafted and tried to silence both on their boards and elsewhere. Yes, in many ways it gets old but so does the sign at the beginning of the road that says Dead End. Locals know about it and some jokes about it but again it serves as a reminder that the path leads nowhere both for people who know and those who are new.
As for the gamingi industry's opinion on the Vet community, they seriously are not interested in whether or not their target audience is stable or "kinder". The majority of them as of late all are aiming for the WoW market - trying to whittle away at its numbers and dethrone the numbers king. I see nowhere on any game forum a poll or questionaire that asks - "ARE YOU A DISGRUNTLED SWG VET?"
In the end, they see us as mmorpg players - much like bags of sand that they need to buy. They want a ton of us and could care less where we played last. As for our idea, in the last few months alone, I have read articles about upcoming that pretty much state that they will design it their way and then let the community provide feedback. Didn't see an swg qualifier in the StarGate Worlds Q&A.
Now back to the OP - the problem with EULA's is that the common player doesn't have the money or the time to challenge a corporation in court. Even if your point is 100% valid - companies can tie you up in legal red tape for years and you either settle or go away. That is the American court system as a whole. Only a few absolutely determined souls ever make it through the fire to win the day in court against a corp. In all honesty, we may never know if SOE could be held accountable for their transgressions as online property and rights are only now being dealt with in court. By the time anything could be done about SOE's past - we will be well into the future and SWG will be an entry in wikipedia.
Unless someone with a pretty deep pockets, and a passion for going after "The Man" comes along, and has been personaly burned by some MMO outfit and wants blood, there's not going to be any challenge of a EULA.
Most likely it will be some coporation that will take on MS or Apple or Cisco or Oracle over something, which will apply to software EULAs in general, and it will then filter over to gaming software.
But a direct assault on SOE or LA for the SWG EULA? Unless a disgruntled vet with plenty of time and money to take on these guys comes along, it's all purely speculative. Reality is that SOE and LA have on their side the "it's just a game!" defense which will numb the courts to dealing with the issues. They're allready busy with companies sueing each other over contractural language, thank you.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Bro no offense, but in today's age, people can't fart and not be noticed. We can't turn on the t.v with out having to watch a blonde psycho shave her head, or another blonde bang some dude out in a hotel room. No way in the world, 2 powerhouse companies SOE and Lucas Arts, make a under the table $5000.00 settlement and someone not spill the beans. The lawyer, the clerk of court who stamps the ruling, the many people handling the sheet of paper. The little old lady that sits across from the courthouse everyday feeding the birds so she has to juicy gossip everyday. Someone.... somewhere.... Always talks. It's the number reason the mob retains a hitman at all times. No one in the year 2008 knows how to spell quiet or secret, much less do it.
If there was even a hint of a SOE/LA lawyer walking toward a courtroom, Every News van, game mag, newspaper, and website owner would be blasting that shit full stream before he hit the first step.
Interestingly enough I had a PM a few months ago from someone who claimed he had a settlement with SoE over something unrelated. He explained that he couldn't talk about the issue as part of his agreement.
Whether or not it is true is one thing, but if it is true then I doubt a minor settlement would bring much attention to anyone. Even those clerks you mention would likely be held accountable in any cases of a breach of confidentiallity - even if they're no longer employed by that organization.
But then again something like a settlement would be to keep it out of the courtroom anyway. It's damage control, and I'm sure SoE's team is getting quite good at it.
Bro no offense, but in today's age, people can't fart and not be noticed. We can't turn on the t.v with out having to watch a blonde psycho shave her head, or another blonde bang some dude out in a hotel room. No way in the world, 2 powerhouse companies SOE and Lucas Arts, make a under the table $5000.00 settlement and someone not spill the beans. The lawyer, the clerk of court who stamps the ruling, the many people handling the sheet of paper. The little old lady that sits across from the courthouse everyday feeding the birds so she has to juicy gossip everyday. Someone.... somewhere.... Always talks. It's the number reason the mob retains a hitman at all times. No one in the year 2008 knows how to spell quiet or secret, much less do it.
If there was even a hint of a SOE/LA lawyer walking toward a courtroom, Every News van, game mag, newspaper, and website owner would be blasting that shit full stream before he hit the first step.
Interestingly enough I had a PM a few months ago from someone who claimed he had a settlement with SoE over something unrelated. He explained that he couldn't talk about the issue as part of his agreement.
Whether or not it is true is one thing, but if it is true then I doubt a minor settlement would bring much attention to anyone. Even those clerks you mention would likely be held accountable in any cases of a breach of confidentiallity - even if they're no longer employed by that organization.
But then again something like a settlement would be to keep it out of the courtroom anyway. It's damage control, and I'm sure SoE's team is getting quite good at it.
You just proved my point right there.
The part in red is the point, the orange leads to it.
If he is suppose to keep his mouth shut, what the hell is he doing PMing it to you.
What if you weren't trustworthy and contacted G4 TV.
Very few people on this planet can really keep a secret... and when I say few... like maybe 5 or 10 people out of 9 billion.
To further prove my point you just blasted his Private message to me and every other MMO user who has read this thread about his settlement.
I think the point was just proved that in no way shape or form could a settlement not be made, and it not get out that same day.
*we don't even have to know the details, we just needed to know he settled. That is news right there, that's enough for media to dig for the truth.
Bro no offense, but in today's age, people can't fart and not be noticed. We can't turn on the t.v with out having to watch a blonde psycho shave her head, or another blonde bang some dude out in a hotel room. No way in the world, 2 powerhouse companies SOE and Lucas Arts, make a under the table $5000.00 settlement and someone not spill the beans. The lawyer, the clerk of court who stamps the ruling, the many people handling the sheet of paper. The little old lady that sits across from the courthouse everyday feeding the birds so she has to juicy gossip everyday. Someone.... somewhere.... Always talks. It's the number reason the mob retains a hitman at all times. No one in the year 2008 knows how to spell quiet or secret, much less do it.
If there was even a hint of a SOE/LA lawyer walking toward a courtroom, Every News van, game mag, newspaper, and website owner would be blasting that shit full stream before he hit the first step.
Interestingly enough I had a PM a few months ago from someone who claimed he had a settlement with SoE over something unrelated. He explained that he couldn't talk about the issue as part of his agreement.
Whether or not it is true is one thing, but if it is true then I doubt a minor settlement would bring much attention to anyone. Even those clerks you mention would likely be held accountable in any cases of a breach of confidentiallity - even if they're no longer employed by that organization.
But then again something like a settlement would be to keep it out of the courtroom anyway. It's damage control, and I'm sure SoE's team is getting quite good at it.
You just proved my point right there.
The part in red is the point, the orange leads to it.
If he is suppose to keep his mouth shut, what the hell is he doing PMing it to you.
What if you weren't trustworthy and contacted G4 TV.
Very few people on this planet can really keep a secret... and when I say few... like maybe 5 or 10 people out of 9 billion.
To further prove my point you just blasted his Private message to me and every other MMO user who has read this thread about his settlement.
I think the point was just proved that in no way shape or form could a settlement not be made, and it not get out that same day.
*we don't even have to know the details, we just needed to know he settled. That is news right there, that's enough for media to dig for the truth.
Sorry, let me be a little more specific. He couldn't talk about the particulars of the case. Saying he was awarded a settlement is one thing, but to discuss why he won a settlement is something different.
So, has anyone looked into how many settlements SoE has been involved in?
Suvroc, your head is thicker than a sack of potatoes lol.
The answer to your question is Zero - also expressed as 0.
It isn't the specifics of anything that you have to look at. Just the word, "settlement" , "case", "court" any of these single words is enough to have media beating a door down.
I will 100% guarantee that no one has even taken SOE/LA to court, settled, or otherwise been in a legal proceeding.
How do I know this?
Cause we would have heard about it.
You have bot makers and gold farmers getting sued by blizzard, this is small time news, getting posted on MMORPG as it is happening.
Yet you think somehow a SOE/LA settlement with a subscriber is going to slip by unnoticed?
I hate to differ but settlements occur all of the time without the general population knowing. If you surfed Lexis-Nexis for a myraid on weeks and were willing to pay the fees you would incur doing so - perhaps you might find something.
Settlements can happen even before court documents are filed. The lawyer makes contact with the legal department - tells them of their intention and in some cases a meeting is setup. From there, a settlement becomes a binding agreement between two parties that will never find its way into the courts unless someone breaks the agreement.
That being said, there is no way any one entity could ever know the # of settlements between Sony and another party save for Sony itself. The media may know a lot but reporters are generally like you and me - we don't have thousands of dollars to throw into the research required for such a search. And if said settlement occured before reaching the courts - there would be no paper trail save for what was signed between the two parties. The web is not all knowing. It relies on people getting the information.
At any rate- I seriously don't think anyone has ever mounted an effort to take Sony to task. Most lawyers would listen to your tale and then give you an insane number to cough up to start the process - just to avoid doing it.
To add to Kef's statement...most settlements include a non-disclosure agreement which bars either party from discussing it.
EULA's are really not worth anything to either the company or to the user. In most civil courts you have to prove "actual damages". In this case the most a user can reasonably expect to gain from a judgement against a company would be a month or 2 subscription price or box product price, pain and suffering (tough one to prove in a case like this), and of course attorney's fees.
The company may settle to simply keep whatever publicity in check. Cost of doing business.
The only way to challenge SOE's EULA is the cancel button. It clearly states online gameplay may change. They are covered. What would you sue for, anyways? Lost wages, damages, compensation?
You played the game until is wasn't fun for you. If you played longer, than that is on you. No one forced you to keep paying to play. Putting a year work into a toon does not fly, because this is a game not work. There is absolutely no monetary gain if you're character has 3 years played time on him. Game is intended for entertainment purposes only.
The only way to challenge SOE's EULA is the cancel button. It clearly states online gameplay may change. They are covered. What would you sue for, anyways? Lost wages, damages, compensation?
You played the game until is wasn't fun for you. If you played longer, than that is on you. No one forced you to keep paying to play. Putting a year work into a toon does not fly, because this is a game not work. There is absolutely no monetary gain if you're character has 3 years played time on him. Game is intended for entertainment purposes only.
Incorrect. Fraud is illegal. They are allowed to change the confines of the game within the confines of the game. Creating a different game altogether negates the EULA -- Or at least the case is within reason.
TooW was most certainly illegal. That is why they eventually offered refunds.
Players pay monthly, spend time and resources to play the game. It isn't as open-and-shut as you seem to think.
The only way to challenge SOE's EULA is the cancel button. It clearly states online gameplay may change. They are covered. What would you sue for, anyways? Lost wages, damages, compensation?
You played the game until is wasn't fun for you. If you played longer, than that is on you. No one forced you to keep paying to play. Putting a year work into a toon does not fly, because this is a game not work. There is absolutely no monetary gain if you're character has 3 years played time on him. Game is intended for entertainment purposes only.
Incorrect. Fraud is illegal. They are allowed to change the confines of the game within the confines of the game. Creating a different game altogether negates the EULA -- Or at least the case is within reason.
TooW was most certainly illegal. That is why they eventually offered refunds.
Players pay monthly, spend time and resources to play the game. It isn't as open-and-shut as you seem to think.
You can't receive compensation, because you spent 5 months logged into a game that suddenly was turned upside down. AC2 players couldn't sue Turbine when Turbime shut it down.
You can recieve compensation when you buy a product that is not as advertised. You're comparing apples to oranges.
If you played for a year, you got that year. You're not guaranteed that in another year you'll still like the game.
The only way to challenge SOE's EULA is the cancel button. It clearly states online gameplay may change. They are covered. What would you sue for, anyways? Lost wages, damages, compensation?
You played the game until is wasn't fun for you. If you played longer, than that is on you. No one forced you to keep paying to play. Putting a year work into a toon does not fly, because this is a game not work. There is absolutely no monetary gain if you're character has 3 years played time on him. Game is intended for entertainment purposes only.
Underlined above relates to ESRB rating only. Does not apply to the topic at hand.
A lot of EULA's or "shrinkwrap" licensing are frowned upon in many courts.
Ok, then go sue, by all means. What is the hold up? If this is clearly a violation of rights why has no one sued? Lawyers would be all over this. There would be lawsuits left and right. We would have a class-action lawsuit in the millions. Why don't we? Are the lawyers stupid? Lazy? Not interested in money? Or is the idea of a lawsuit so far-fetched even the most money strapped lawyers knows better?
Ok, then go sue, by all means. What is the hold up? If this is clearly a violation of rights why has no one sued? Lawyers would be all over this. There would be lawsuits left and right. We would have a class-action lawsuit in the millions. Why don't we? Are the lawyers stupid? Lazy? Not interested in money? Or is the idea of a lawsuit so far-fetched even the most money strapped lawyers knows better?
That is the catch 22 really...there is no money in suing...however a suit could be fruitful if the intention was to make law.
I hate to differ but settlements occur all of the time without the general population knowing. If you surfed Lexis-Nexis for a myraid on weeks and were willing to pay the fees you would incur doing so - perhaps you might find something. Settlements can happen even before court documents are filed. The lawyer makes contact with the legal department - tells them of their intention and in some cases a meeting is setup. From there, a settlement becomes a binding agreement between two parties that will never find its way into the courts unless someone breaks the agreement. That being said, there is no way any one entity could ever know the # of settlements between Sony and another party save for Sony itself. The media may know a lot but reporters are generally like you and me - we don't have thousands of dollars to throw into the research required for such a search. And if said settlement occured before reaching the courts - there would be no paper trail save for what was signed between the two parties. The web is not all knowing. It relies on people getting the information. At any rate- I seriously don't think anyone has ever mounted an effort to take Sony to task. Most lawyers would listen to your tale and then give you an insane number to cough up to start the process - just to avoid doing it.
Thank you Kefkah, tha's pretty much what I was trying to say.
Surprised no one has brought up the UO lawsuit from the late 90s. It basically failed to give the plaintiffs any sort of cash reward. I think if someone managed to start a class action lawsuit it might get somewhere but the risk far outweighs the rewards. Unless you are already rich and want to make a point I suppose.
On the other hand, lawmakers tend to view EULAs indifferently as in...they don't mean much.
Well, aren't there about 3 suits in the courts that could cover most of what you guys are posting about? First there is the guy suing over gold farmers stating they are ruining WoW, which apparently could lead to a court stand on virtual property. Second there is the Blizzard suit against one of the Glider programs, which would basically imply that the company owns it's code even if it is only in your RAM. Third there is the class action suit against SOE over the release of ToOW which failed, but did have the ramification that SOE refunded the expansion. None of them are direct challenges to the EULA, but the first two will give an indication of whether the courts are going to lean pro-gamer or pro-company. And the third indicates that even a class-action suit by some of your fellow "disgruntled SWG veterans" over something that probably could have won in court, didn't have the guts to stick it out over getting their $25 back.
In the end, challenging a EULA is much easier said than done. Courts don't like them and the gamers that seem to want to challenge them apparently don't have all that much money. I personally think most of you here are reaching, and I don't see any *real* lawyers among you to change my mind. But I'm not a real lawyer either, so...
Surprised no one has brought up the UO lawsuit from the late 90s. It basically failed to give the plaintiffs any sort of cash reward. I think if someone managed to start a class action lawsuit it might get somewhere but the risk far outweighs the rewards. Unless you are already rich and want to make a point I suppose. On the other hand, lawmakers tend to view EULAs indifferently as in...they don't mean much.
I actually did bring it up the last time a thread with the same topic appeared, but obviously it didn't sink in the last time, so we have to rehash the whole darnedable thing out again.
Comments
You're assuming there hasn't been out any of court settlements.
Let's face it if someone did file a complaint about SoE and in return SoE offered cash instead of going to court I'd bet that nearly 100% of people would take the quick cash.
That's true, except a lawsuit like that would have made it to the press or the game community before it was dreopped into settlement.
Most excellent dumbed down descriptive of the whole thing. As for the swg vets who keep crying about the game that was and how SoE (or rather LA) managed it.. fine, if you don't like how they handle it's mmos... go ahead and make your own, and handle it how ever you want. What, no one is stopping you.
And in 60 years, when some of you are old and grey, you will be posting in the virtual blogsphere full 3d environment that the internet will become, and whine about how soe broke your game when you were young, and everyone will ignore the bitter old avatar posters.
You're assuming there hasn't been out any of court settlements.
Let's face it if someone did file a complaint about SoE and in return SoE offered cash instead of going to court I'd bet that nearly 100% of people would take the quick cash.
That's true, except a lawsuit like that would have made it to the press or the game community before it was dreopped into settlement.
I was going to say the same thing, If anyone honestly believes as big as this whole SWG thing is with people, that SOE/LA could keep a settlement secret from the press and it wouldn't be blasted all over the internet and news before the ink on the check was dry... has some screws loose.
I doubt SoE (or rather LA) would settle if someone were to try to sue them due to their game changing. The game clearly states "online play may change" all over the place, and the eula of course has provisions for that. Why would soe settle out to someone for any reason? Its well within its rights to do whatever it wishes within the game.
But I am sure it makes you all feel better to lash out. Most do at some point or other.. although usually at a very early stage in life.
Now perhaps if the swgvet crowd didnt act the way it does (generally, not anyone specifically), perhaps the rest of the gamer world would take them seriously, including say.. the developers of mmos. After all.. why would they develop a game for people like that, when there is a much stabler, kinder market in crapfeast mmos?
I doubt SoE (or rather LA) would settle if someone were to try to sue them due to their game changing. The game clearly states "online play may change" all over the place, and the eula of course has provisions for that. Why would soe settle out to someone for any reason? Its well within its rights to do whatever it wishes within the game.
But I am sure it makes you all feel better to lash out. Most do at some point or other.. although usually at a very early stage in life.
LOL Wait what!?
Pssst. Quick forum tip... Start at page 1 move ............ to last post... read everything in between. Then read your post, and you will understand, why I have no idea what the hell your talking about????
I am not lashing out at anything, Zorvan said that no one has settled with SOE/LA and if they had we would have heard about it, in response to something someone else stated.
I simply agreed that if this ever did happen.... we would have heard of it, as I also know, it will never happen.
You're assuming there hasn't been out any of court settlements.
Let's face it if someone did file a complaint about SoE and in return SoE offered cash instead of going to court I'd bet that nearly 100% of people would take the quick cash.
That's true, except a lawsuit like that would have made it to the press or the game community before it was dreopped into settlement.
I was going to say the same thing, If anyone honestly believes as big as this whole SWG thing is with people, that SOE/LA could keep a settlement secret from the press and it wouldn't be blasted all over the internet and news before the ink on the check was dry... has some screws loose.
I don't know. Would a news site care about a $5000 settlement?
Or perhaps the persons involved would be unable to discuss the case as part of the settlement. I'd think that settlements like these would be to keep people quiet so others do not do the same.
Bro no offense, but in today's age, people can't fart and not be noticed.
We can't turn on the t.v with out having to watch a blonde psycho shave her head, or another blonde bang some dude out in a hotel room.
No way in the world, 2 powerhouse companies SOE and Lucas Arts, make a under the table $5000.00 settlement and someone not spill the beans.
The lawyer, the clerk of court who stamps the ruling, the many people handling the sheet of paper. The little old lady that sits across from the courthouse everyday feeding the birds so she has to juicy gossip everyday.
Someone.... somewhere.... Always talks.
It's the number reason the mob retains a hitman at all times.
No one in the year 2008 knows how to spell quiet or secret, much less do it.
If there was even a hint of a SOE/LA lawyer walking toward a courtroom, Every News van, game mag, newspaper, and website owner would be blasting that shit full stream before he hit the first step.
Who let Dr. Phil in here?
Seriously, there has been many a game dev that has openly said that they didn't want to follow in the footsteps of SWG. Kinda makes you wonder how they know about that. Surely, it was SOE out there admitting their mistake and making ammends with the community at large that clued them in. Hmm, nope. I believe it was the audience that they shafted and tried to silence both on their boards and elsewhere. Yes, in many ways it gets old but so does the sign at the beginning of the road that says Dead End. Locals know about it and some jokes about it but again it serves as a reminder that the path leads nowhere both for people who know and those who are new.
As for the gamingi industry's opinion on the Vet community, they seriously are not interested in whether or not their target audience is stable or "kinder". The majority of them as of late all are aiming for the WoW market - trying to whittle away at its numbers and dethrone the numbers king. I see nowhere on any game forum a poll or questionaire that asks - "ARE YOU A DISGRUNTLED SWG VET?"
In the end, they see us as mmorpg players - much like bags of sand that they need to buy. They want a ton of us and could care less where we played last. As for our idea, in the last few months alone, I have read articles about upcoming that pretty much state that they will design it their way and then let the community provide feedback. Didn't see an swg qualifier in the StarGate Worlds Q&A.
Now back to the OP - the problem with EULA's is that the common player doesn't have the money or the time to challenge a corporation in court. Even if your point is 100% valid - companies can tie you up in legal red tape for years and you either settle or go away. That is the American court system as a whole. Only a few absolutely determined souls ever make it through the fire to win the day in court against a corp. In all honesty, we may never know if SOE could be held accountable for their transgressions as online property and rights are only now being dealt with in court. By the time anything could be done about SOE's past - we will be well into the future and SWG will be an entry in wikipedia.
Unless someone with a pretty deep pockets, and a passion for going after "The Man" comes along, and has been personaly burned by some MMO outfit and wants blood, there's not going to be any challenge of a EULA.
Most likely it will be some coporation that will take on MS or Apple or Cisco or Oracle over something, which will apply to software EULAs in general, and it will then filter over to gaming software.
But a direct assault on SOE or LA for the SWG EULA? Unless a disgruntled vet with plenty of time and money to take on these guys comes along, it's all purely speculative. Reality is that SOE and LA have on their side the "it's just a game!" defense which will numb the courts to dealing with the issues. They're allready busy with companies sueing each other over contractural language, thank you.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
Interestingly enough I had a PM a few months ago from someone who claimed he had a settlement with SoE over something unrelated. He explained that he couldn't talk about the issue as part of his agreement.
Whether or not it is true is one thing, but if it is true then I doubt a minor settlement would bring much attention to anyone. Even those clerks you mention would likely be held accountable in any cases of a breach of confidentiallity - even if they're no longer employed by that organization.
But then again something like a settlement would be to keep it out of the courtroom anyway. It's damage control, and I'm sure SoE's team is getting quite good at it.
Interestingly enough I had a PM a few months ago from someone who claimed he had a settlement with SoE over something unrelated. He explained that he couldn't talk about the issue as part of his agreement.
Whether or not it is true is one thing, but if it is true then I doubt a minor settlement would bring much attention to anyone. Even those clerks you mention would likely be held accountable in any cases of a breach of confidentiallity - even if they're no longer employed by that organization.
But then again something like a settlement would be to keep it out of the courtroom anyway. It's damage control, and I'm sure SoE's team is getting quite good at it.
You just proved my point right there.
The part in red is the point, the orange leads to it.
If he is suppose to keep his mouth shut, what the hell is he doing PMing it to you.
What if you weren't trustworthy and contacted G4 TV.
Very few people on this planet can really keep a secret... and when I say few... like maybe 5 or 10 people out of 9 billion.
To further prove my point you just blasted his Private message to me and every other MMO user who has read this thread about his settlement.
I think the point was just proved that in no way shape or form could a settlement not be made, and it not get out that same day.
*we don't even have to know the details, we just needed to know he settled. That is news right there, that's enough for media to dig for the truth.
Interestingly enough I had a PM a few months ago from someone who claimed he had a settlement with SoE over something unrelated. He explained that he couldn't talk about the issue as part of his agreement.
Whether or not it is true is one thing, but if it is true then I doubt a minor settlement would bring much attention to anyone. Even those clerks you mention would likely be held accountable in any cases of a breach of confidentiallity - even if they're no longer employed by that organization.
But then again something like a settlement would be to keep it out of the courtroom anyway. It's damage control, and I'm sure SoE's team is getting quite good at it.
You just proved my point right there.
The part in red is the point, the orange leads to it.
If he is suppose to keep his mouth shut, what the hell is he doing PMing it to you.
What if you weren't trustworthy and contacted G4 TV.
Very few people on this planet can really keep a secret... and when I say few... like maybe 5 or 10 people out of 9 billion.
To further prove my point you just blasted his Private message to me and every other MMO user who has read this thread about his settlement.
I think the point was just proved that in no way shape or form could a settlement not be made, and it not get out that same day.
*we don't even have to know the details, we just needed to know he settled. That is news right there, that's enough for media to dig for the truth.
Sorry, let me be a little more specific. He couldn't talk about the particulars of the case. Saying he was awarded a settlement is one thing, but to discuss why he won a settlement is something different.
So, has anyone looked into how many settlements SoE has been involved in?
Suvroc, your head is thicker than a sack of potatoes lol.
The answer to your question is Zero - also expressed as 0.
It isn't the specifics of anything that you have to look at. Just the word, "settlement" , "case", "court" any of these single words is enough to have media beating a door down.
I will 100% guarantee that no one has even taken SOE/LA to court, settled, or otherwise been in a legal proceeding.
How do I know this?
Cause we would have heard about it.
You have bot makers and gold farmers getting sued by blizzard, this is small time news, getting posted on MMORPG as it is happening.
Yet you think somehow a SOE/LA settlement with a subscriber is going to slip by unnoticed?
I think not.
I hate to differ but settlements occur all of the time without the general population knowing. If you surfed Lexis-Nexis for a myraid on weeks and were willing to pay the fees you would incur doing so - perhaps you might find something.
Settlements can happen even before court documents are filed. The lawyer makes contact with the legal department - tells them of their intention and in some cases a meeting is setup. From there, a settlement becomes a binding agreement between two parties that will never find its way into the courts unless someone breaks the agreement.
That being said, there is no way any one entity could ever know the # of settlements between Sony and another party save for Sony itself. The media may know a lot but reporters are generally like you and me - we don't have thousands of dollars to throw into the research required for such a search. And if said settlement occured before reaching the courts - there would be no paper trail save for what was signed between the two parties. The web is not all knowing. It relies on people getting the information.
At any rate- I seriously don't think anyone has ever mounted an effort to take Sony to task. Most lawyers would listen to your tale and then give you an insane number to cough up to start the process - just to avoid doing it.
To add to Kef's statement...most settlements include a non-disclosure agreement which bars either party from discussing it.
EULA's are really not worth anything to either the company or to the user. In most civil courts you have to prove "actual damages". In this case the most a user can reasonably expect to gain from a judgement against a company would be a month or 2 subscription price or box product price, pain and suffering (tough one to prove in a case like this), and of course attorney's fees.
The company may settle to simply keep whatever publicity in check. Cost of doing business.
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Ten Golden Rules Of Videogame Fanboyism
"SOE has probably united more gamers in hatred than Blizzard has subs"...daelnor
The only way to challenge SOE's EULA is the cancel button. It clearly states online gameplay may change. They are covered. What would you sue for, anyways? Lost wages, damages, compensation?
You played the game until is wasn't fun for you. If you played longer, than that is on you. No one forced you to keep paying to play. Putting a year work into a toon does not fly, because this is a game not work. There is absolutely no monetary gain if you're character has 3 years played time on him. Game is intended for entertainment purposes only.
Incorrect. Fraud is illegal. They are allowed to change the confines of the game within the confines of the game. Creating a different game altogether negates the EULA -- Or at least the case is within reason.
TooW was most certainly illegal. That is why they eventually offered refunds.
Players pay monthly, spend time and resources to play the game. It isn't as open-and-shut as you seem to think.
Tecmo Bowl.
Incorrect. Fraud is illegal. They are allowed to change the confines of the game within the confines of the game. Creating a different game altogether negates the EULA -- Or at least the case is within reason.
TooW was most certainly illegal. That is why they eventually offered refunds.
Players pay monthly, spend time and resources to play the game. It isn't as open-and-shut as you seem to think.
You can't receive compensation, because you spent 5 months logged into a game that suddenly was turned upside down. AC2 players couldn't sue Turbine when Turbime shut it down.
You can recieve compensation when you buy a product that is not as advertised. You're comparing apples to oranges.
If you played for a year, you got that year. You're not guaranteed that in another year you'll still like the game.
Underlined above relates to ESRB rating only. Does not apply to the topic at hand.
A lot of EULA's or "shrinkwrap" licensing are frowned upon in many courts.
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Ten Golden Rules Of Videogame Fanboyism
"SOE has probably united more gamers in hatred than Blizzard has subs"...daelnor
Ok, then go sue, by all means. What is the hold up? If this is clearly a violation of rights why has no one sued? Lawyers would be all over this. There would be lawsuits left and right. We would have a class-action lawsuit in the millions. Why don't we? Are the lawyers stupid? Lazy? Not interested in money? Or is the idea of a lawsuit so far-fetched even the most money strapped lawyers knows better?
That is the catch 22 really...there is no money in suing...however a suit could be fruitful if the intention was to make law.
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Ten Golden Rules Of Videogame Fanboyism
"SOE has probably united more gamers in hatred than Blizzard has subs"...daelnor
Thank you Kefkah, tha's pretty much what I was trying to say.
Surprised no one has brought up the UO lawsuit from the late 90s. It basically failed to give the plaintiffs any sort of cash reward. I think if someone managed to start a class action lawsuit it might get somewhere but the risk far outweighs the rewards. Unless you are already rich and want to make a point I suppose.
On the other hand, lawmakers tend to view EULAs indifferently as in...they don't mean much.
Well, aren't there about 3 suits in the courts that could cover most of what you guys are posting about? First there is the guy suing over gold farmers stating they are ruining WoW, which apparently could lead to a court stand on virtual property. Second there is the Blizzard suit against one of the Glider programs, which would basically imply that the company owns it's code even if it is only in your RAM. Third there is the class action suit against SOE over the release of ToOW which failed, but did have the ramification that SOE refunded the expansion. None of them are direct challenges to the EULA, but the first two will give an indication of whether the courts are going to lean pro-gamer or pro-company. And the third indicates that even a class-action suit by some of your fellow "disgruntled SWG veterans" over something that probably could have won in court, didn't have the guts to stick it out over getting their $25 back.
In the end, challenging a EULA is much easier said than done. Courts don't like them and the gamers that seem to want to challenge them apparently don't have all that much money. I personally think most of you here are reaching, and I don't see any *real* lawyers among you to change my mind. But I'm not a real lawyer either, so...
I actually did bring it up the last time a thread with the same topic appeared, but obviously it didn't sink in the last time, so we have to rehash the whole darnedable thing out again.