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Are you Tired of Holy Trinity?
vajuras
Member Posts: 2,860
Just curious what most people think about this issue. I've read a few developer blogs here and there whereas they desire to maintain the 'status quo' whereas Warriors should Taunt, Healers should Heal, and Mages do the DPS. The mob AI never dashes for the Healer, etc
I am pretty bored with the Trinity myself and wish to at least see radically different Classes and roles. Too me, really I find the relationships we see in sandbox MMORPGs much more complex whereas the game is centered around "dragon slaying" but rather everything merging together as a community to achieve goals. For instance, only in EVE Online Alliances do players coordinate on a global scale to relay Intel, lockdown their Bottlenecks, gather resources, build ships, etc on a huge scale. This is teamwork 24/7 and you all live together at the "same location"
Too me, this is much deeper then "Raiding" which is something we've seen thrown at us without much evolution for past few decades since EQ1
So below I posted a poll is everyone happy with Trinity the way it is - focus on Warrior-Mage-Healer or do you want to see something new envisioned?
Comments
I'm tired of classes and levels entirely. Lazy...
I like to know what my role is, and what my friend roles are. But I am open-minded to intelligent alternatives.
I can't stand raiding nor EvE nor PvP nor RvR. I simply wants to group. Nothing less, nothing more. From day 1, to the last day where I win/lose and decide to quit. Soloing is also an interesting option for me if for any reason grouping isn't working.
Raid/PvP/RvR all you want...without me or the like of me. PUGs lovers are a key part of a successfull community, no matter if you like to PUG or not...and if they are ghetto (ghetto rewards...), you will have ghetto players there...and a shortage of good ol's groupers. The health of a MMO, for me, it is judged by the quality of it PUGing.
For PUGs, key roles is good. Doesn't have to be as static as EQ, games like CoX advances the setting and more or less change this trinity thingy, up to the point peoples disagree what the trinity is.
Again, no PUGs, no game. :P
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
groupers love the holy trinity. Simplifies a game that could be extremely complex into something the normal incompetent can contribute to.
classes are here to stay in AAA MMOs there's no changing that for a LOOOOOOONNNNNNNGGGGGGGGG.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
I am a grouper. I don't love this holy trinity of which you speak. Therefore you are a liar, and I am not prone to believe anything you have to say, and I hope no one else is either.
That aside, I think the "Holy Trinity" is Tank, Healer, DPSer (not mage).
And THAT aside, I don't think it is the "Holy Trinity" that is a problem so much as the prevalence of content that forces people into one of the trinity's roles... i.e. raids.
You will likely notice quite a correlation, reguardless of what you think.
I'd be willing to bet big time that your views of grouping would be radically different if you started on a skill based(avatar) game instead of class based one(please note that says exactly what it says, not that you would like grouping more or less).
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
Enlighten me.
How exactly, is a game built upon a skill-based system going to break the mold of the holy trinity?
Will players not have to do damage to kill things?
Will players not need to heal to keep from dying?
Will some players not be better able to sustain damage than others?
If they do need to do these things... then you still have the holy trinity, because the holy trinity consists of roles that are filled by different players. Those roles will be filled regardless of whether the game has classes specifically designed to fit into one of the roles or the game has a plethora of skills and players just pick up the ones they want.
Unless the game we are talking about so greatly redefines the MMORPG genre that there is no need for tanking, healing, or damage dealing, the holy trinity will remain.
Ironically, I believe that a game that did a good job not of breaking, but at least bending, the mold of the holy trinity... was EverQuest. Sure, you had tanks, and healers, and damage dealers. However, there were perhaps only two classes in the entire game (warriors and rogues) that could only fill one of those roles.
eve is completely ruined by politics and elitism, I get really bored of this 'holier than thou' view of Eve. Good corps require 25M sp. Thats what ... a years playtime with NO option of accelerating the process. People like the holy trinity because they can make a healer, level it up to their hearts content and SHEZAM they are a valuable asset to RvR. EVE is the complete worst-case scenario of sandboxing - people want a lot of skills and generally dont care too much about exactly what skills you have. You end up with 2 types of corps - n00b corps that all have small amounts of skills in the same area (i.e. BS PvE) where people are interchangeable and elitist corps that want 25m sp from every member - either way there is absolutely no incentive to train skills toward one specific role. Give me a good old fashioned RAID or RVR battle anyday.
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Note: PlayNC will refuse to allow you access to your account if you forget your password and can't provide a scanned image of the product key for the first product you purchased..... LOL
You're way off base. A corp that requires 25 million SP in Eve would be like a guild in WoW that requires you to have full epics from the second newest raid in order to apply. They are both rare. They are not the only "good" groups to get in with.
You can be a valuable asset in Eve with less than one month spent training. And, for players who aren't able to spend 40+ hours a week in game, Eve actually might let you become a valuable asset sooner than a game based on experience and leveling.
Furthermore, there is great incentive to train towards a specific role in Eve, especially when you consider that basically every single thing you can do in Eve is a "specific role". You don't see anyone flying an interceptor who plans on not only scrambling but also DPSing down a battleship; you don't see anyone flying a falcon who is planning on shield repping friends while also jamming opponents; etc.
Really, the only way you can be useful in group pvp in Eve at all is to have at least one specific role you can fill well. And since that is the only way to be useful in pvp... it seems like there could not be MORE incentive to specialize, rather than the "no incentive" at all that you talk about.
Dont get distracted by mention of EVE Online. That type of gameplay whereas players envision their own roles can exist in other upcoming titles.
Take WELL Online, Earthrise, APB, linkrealms, Champions Online, or any other upcoming product that will let you generate your own role. None of them will force you into Time Based Training.
Do you prefer the ability to play a unique new role that you created over being forced into the redundant Warrior-Mage-Healer Trinity?
Let's not forget the issues they cause. They #1 sort of defeat Classification. If you are not one of these primary roles- you usually dont get a team. Also, you do not get into Guilds. Lastly, it gets tiring after seeing it without innovation in RPG after RPG.
Generate your own role? What does that mean?
If any of those games involve combatting NPCs, there will be the tank, healer and DPSer roles. They are the most basic roles a typical RPG can have, and therefore any new roles someone cares to conjure out of thin air are simply more specific roles that still fit into one or more of the holy trinity niches.
Saying that you can develop a new role in your typical MMORPG is like saying that you can develop a new role in the real life workplace.
When you break it down, in real life you either work to provide a service or a good, or both. You cannot do otherwise, because these are the most basic things you can do in the workplace. If you work, you do one or both of them.
In a similar fashion, you cannot play a typical MMORPG without tanking, healing, DPSing, or some combination of those.
Again, I say that if you are going to redefine what the genre is, and create an MMORPG that does not involve killing anything, you could create classes or skills that cannot be fit into one of the holy trinity niches. But short of that, you cannot (barring perhaps a "crafter" role that does not engage in the typical MMORPG mechanics of "quest, kill, level up").
Generate your own role? What does that mean?
If any of those games involve combatting NPCs, there will be the tank, healer and DPSer roles. They are the most basic roles a typical RPG can have, and therefore any new roles someone cares to conjure out of thin air are simply more specific roles that still fit into one or more of the holy trinity niches.
Titles escape trinity via Freeform activities not focused on Dragon Killing. for instance in EVE Online, players dont really see the real team based gameplay til they reach 0.0 space and join an Alliance. Then you see activites such as covering bottlenecks, recons patroling reporting Intel, crafters building replacement ships, Haulers breaking blockades to delivery goods.
There is no trinity here.
yes i am but is there a viable alternative.
Classic alternatives i seen are tank/healer/dps all rolled in one like the jedi of old in SWG.Sounds good but trust me after been in a group of 5 jedis knocking stuff for a few hours it gets boring fast.At least with the trinity you have a combined effort to perform a role.Here 5 people hacking away and self healing.
Another would be ranged kiting which already exists and can be a bore.
If there a good alternative i would be happy to try it.
I also would like to break out of the pidgeon holing of class and expectations of their duties. That being said, its hard to invision a tank healing or a healer tank effectivly
Torrential: DAOC (Pendragon)
Awned: World of Warcraft (Lothar)
Torren: Warhammer Online (Praag)
Trinity is a poor reflection of real life. For one- a Warrior thats up front trying to Tank will find itself ignored if it's not the primary tactical threat
In PVP- Trinity falls down. Players will always ignore a Warrior and go for the DPSers and Healers first. edit- most notably Healers will most certainly be targeted first. So even though Trinity exists in PVE- it does not really exist in PVP. Thus players find that PVE and PVP differ very drastically.
I'm getting bored of it.
However, if a game is completely sandbox and I can be what I want to be, I want to know what my options are. It's all very well and good being able to do what I want, but if my options aren't clear I feel as if I'm getting nothing done. What I would like is a sandbox game that tells me I can do Y and Z if I don't fancy X.
Oh, nevermind.
I just want to clarify that Classes can exist in both types of games. I know you of all know that so I am wondering if you could elaborate more
Groupers can love both because in both sandbox games and 'Theme Park' you can have clearly defined roles. In EVE Online we can learn any skill but our ship is our Class and gives us clearly defined roles in an engagement for example
Trinity is a poor reflection of real life. For one- a Warrior thats up front trying to Tank will find itself ignored if it's not the primary tactical threat
In PVP- Trinity falls down. Players will always ignore a Warrior and go for the DPSers and Healers first.
Much like every MMO out there...if you're smart. You always kill the healers/DPSs 1st and mop up the rest. FIghting is fighting. You're either doing damage, taking damage, controlling an enemy in some way, buffing, debuffing or healing. Thats it. For someone to say that they've created some innovative new way to fight is beyond ignorant. The holy trinity has existed for as long as fights have existed. From humans to packs of wild dogs chasing antelope, there's always ROLES to play. Without roles, there is no strategy.
Actually Eve suffers from the non existant pvp trinity because if you get any type of "heal" ie, remote reps, shield transporter then you will be most likely targeted. And in general most people are dps, tank, or crowd control (Electronic Warfare).
I really like EvE but it still does have that general trinity but healing is replaced. I like the fact that healers arent needed though. And how its more like combat you would do in real life, I know the combat is kind of boring, but i mean I dont have the time to hear my enemy (npc) mock me with the same line when ever I enter his space or when he iniaites certain attacks. Im talkin about you fantasy MMOs!!
You just proved my point Healers die first in PVP. In PVE this is not so. Trinity doesnt exist in PVP. Warriors see their effectiveness dive down
edit- And btw I never said get rid of roles we have "roles" in EVE Online, Battlefield FPS series, you name it...
The more difficult PvE encounters become the more necessary the "Holy Trinity" is. The PvE "Holy Trinity" is not effective in PvP because they have a different "Holy Trinity".
You will always need someone to take the damage. The best person to take that damage is the one with the most armor and health. ie a tank
You will always need someone to replendish the health the tank loses ie a healer
You will always need someone to actually kill the monster while it's attention is on the tank ie a damage dealer
It's not bad design or lazy developers, it's just a PvE encounter broken down to its most basic parts. Anyone that can't see this is either so blinded by bias(Vajuras, a well known advocate for PvP) or doesn't understand game design.
Lastly, it wasn't MMO developers that created the "Holy Trinity" it was the players.
Huh? Your confused what trinity is...
Crafting has nothing to do with trinity, and eve has a trinity it just gives much more emphasis on two from the holy trinity and a fourth, which is usually part of the typical mmo.
EvE revolves around DPS, Tanks, and Mezzing (Electronic Warfare).
Bottlenecks and Patrolling really have to deal with EvE games design and not really about the actual combat but even then inorder to defend your bottleneck you still gonna need DPS and EW.
And Blockade runners still tank in a way/anti mezz.
The trinity is there healers just dont get as much love and are replaced with Mezzers.
Edit - And yea the holy trinity is made by the players. Made new roles like a class that could only buff people and did very little dmg few would play. Most people want to be DPS with tanks and healers being harder to find. Look at most mmos. There is usually plenty of DPS classes and a shortage of tanks and healers.
That's the part thats pretty redundant. There are plenty of COOP PVE games out there that breaks this mold but RPG gamers think this is the only way to do PVE- this same old unoriginal combat
Enlighten me.
How exactly, is a game built upon a skill-based system going to break the mold of the holy trinity?
Will players not have to do damage to kill things?
Will players not need to heal to keep from dying?
Will some players not be better able to sustain damage than others?
If they do need to do these things... then you still have the holy trinity, because the holy trinity consists of roles that are filled by different players. Those roles will be filled regardless of whether the game has classes specifically designed to fit into one of the roles or the game has a plethora of skills and players just pick up the ones they want.
Unless the game we are talking about so greatly redefines the MMORPG genre that there is no need for tanking, healing, or damage dealing, the holy trinity will remain.
Ironically, I believe that a game that did a good job not of breaking, but at least bending, the mold of the holy trinity... was EverQuest. Sure, you had tanks, and healers, and damage dealers. However, there were perhaps only two classes in the entire game (warriors and rogues) that could only fill one of those roles.
yeah, I agree with this.
Because in the end, someone needs to do damage, heal (if the game requires that.. I can easily envision the possibility of a game that doesn't require healers/buffers) or tank, they are going to alter their stats to best take advantage of a role that they will naturally fill.
I can also imagine that parties will be made where they will require someone with a certain lvl in a certain stat in order to make the party viable.
I persoanlly have no problems with class roles as long as one can manipulate their stats within that role.
I am completely against a skill system where one player can max everything out. To be honest, I am somtimes suspect of players who desire skill based systems because it seems that that's what they want to do... make the most "owningest" toon, able to wield the most powerful magics and do the most melee damage while being able to take as much damage as any tank.
If that is what players want then quite frankly they are just looking for "I win" buttons and I am glad developers don't cater to that.
However, if a skill system was to be used in any game I would prefer it if the players had hard choices to make. Should I get x or y. As then that would create deeper gameplay. Of course there should be some way to respec as you don't want to create completely gimped characters. But it shouldn't be too easy as players should be faced with choices and consequences.
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