The more difficult PvE encounters become the more necessary the "Holy Trinity" is. The PvE "Holy Trinity" is not effective in PvP because they have a different "Holy Trinity".
You will always need someone to take the damage. The best person to take that damage is the one with the most armor and health. ie a tank
You will always need someone to replendish the health the tank loses ie a healer
You will always need someone to actually kill the monster while it's attention is on the tank ie a damage dealer
That's the part thats pretty redundant. There are plenty of COOP PVE games out there that breaks this mold but RPG gamers think this is the only way to do PVE- this same old unoriginal combat
Give us an example? You mean a game like diablo where there is only DPS and sort of Tanks?
Originally posted by Njai15 Huh? Your confused what trinity is...
Crafting has nothing to do with trinity, and eve has a trinity it just gives much more emphasis on two from the holy trinity and a fourth, which is usually part of the typical mmo.
EvE revolves around DPS, Tanks, and Mezzing (Electronic Warfare). Bottlenecks and Patrolling really have to deal with EvE games design and not really about the actual combat but even then inorder to defend your bottleneck you still gonna need DPS and EW.
And Blockade runners still tank in a way/anti mezz.
The trinity is there healers just dont get as much love and are replaced with Mezzers.
Edit - And yea the holy trinity is made by the players. Made new roles like a class that could only buff people and did very little dmg few would play. Most people want to be DPS with tanks and healers being harder to find. Look at most mmos. There is usually plenty of DPS classes and a shortage of tanks and healers.
True fleet combat has trinity happening with armor reppers in the background and Battleships tanking up front and plenty of Electronic Warfare. Thats the traditional part of RPG combat showing its face Im not arguing that point this post is correct
But the other form of teamwork is indeed securing your bottlenecks, crafting, resource gathering, recons out here patroling, etc. That is the other side of teamwork in EVE Online that breaks the traditional mold of 'trinity'
good point I agree on. But I think everone agrees EVE's combat takes a dip in anycase
Originally posted by Njai15 Originally posted by Xiaoki The more difficult PvE encounters become the more necessary the "Holy Trinity" is. The PvE "Holy Trinity" is not effective in PvP because they have a different "Holy Trinity". You will always need someone to take the damage. The best person to take that damage is the one with the most armor and health. ie a tank You will always need someone to replendish the health the tank loses ie a healer You will always need someone to actually kill the monster while it's attention is on the tank ie a damage dealerThat's the part thats pretty redundant. There are plenty of COOP PVE games out there that breaks this mold but RPG gamers think this is the only way to do PVE- this same old unoriginal combat
Give us an example? You mean a game like diablo where there is only DPS and sort of Tanks?
Was thinking about Battlefield FPS games in PVP whereas everyone wears armor.
COOP PVE I am thinking about Halo 3, Rainbow 6: Vegas, etc. Anything beyond Coop RPG I think we see innovation and very challenging PVE. In those games everyone wears armor which is much more realistic too me
The more difficult PvE encounters become the more necessary the "Holy Trinity" is. The PvE "Holy Trinity" is not effective in PvP because they have a different "Holy Trinity".
You will always need someone to take the damage. The best person to take that damage is the one with the most armor and health. ie a tank
You will always need someone to replendish the health the tank loses ie a healer
You will always need someone to actually kill the monster while it's attention is on the tank ie a damage dealer
That's the part thats pretty redundant. There are plenty of COOP PVE games out there that breaks this mold but RPG gamers think this is the only way to do PVE- this same old unoriginal combat
Give us an example? You mean a game like diablo where there is only DPS and sort of Tanks?
Was thinking about Battlefield FPS games in PVP whereas everyone wears armor.
COOP PVE I am thinking about Halo 3, Rainbow 6: Vegas, etc. Anything beyond Coop RPG I think we see innovation and very challenging PVE. In those games everyone wears armor which is much more realistic too me
But those games arent RPGs....
Thats like me saying Halo sucks because it doesnt allow me to get phat loot or give me diffrent stats for what armor I equip or weapons are too easy to get.
You will likely notice quite a correlation, reguardless of what you think. I'd be willing to bet big time that your views of grouping would be radically different if you started on a skill based(avatar) game instead of class based one(please note that says exactly what it says, not that you would like grouping more or less).
Enlighten me.
How exactly, is a game built upon a skill-based system going to break the mold of the holy trinity?
Will players not have to do damage to kill things?
In AC1 every player was equally capable of damage.
Will players not need to heal to keep from dying?
Every player in AC1 was equally capable of healing themselves.
Will some players not be better able to sustain damage than others?
In AC1 every player was equally capable of taking damage.
If they do need to do these things... then you still have the holy trinity, because the holy trinity consists of roles that are filled by different players. Those roles will be filled regardless of whether the game has classes specifically designed to fit into one of the roles or the game has a plethora of skills and players just pick up the ones they want.
Unless the game we are talking about so greatly redefines the MMORPG genre that there is no need for tanking, healing, or damage dealing, the holy trinity will remain.
Ironically, I believe that a game that did a good job not of breaking, but at least bending, the mold of the holy trinity... was EverQuest. Sure, you had tanks, and healers, and damage dealers. However, there were perhaps only two classes in the entire game (warriors and rogues) that could only fill one of those roles.
Asheron's CAll 1 is a perfect example of a game breaking the "holy trinity mold". I had a tank archer with Life and item magic on that game. He also could melee with daggers if I wanted to. This character could buff and bane myself, I could debuff the mobs, I could shoot with my arrows even at point blank range, or I could use my dagger if I wanted to. To heal myself I could either use healing spells or I could use bandages. I could bandage myself in the middle of battle if necessary. I could buff a robe up and wear it to tank mobs.
AC1 completely broke the mold that EQ1 was set in.
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
Originally posted by Njai15 Originally posted by Xiaoki The more difficult PvE encounters become the more necessary the "Holy Trinity" is. The PvE "Holy Trinity" is not effective in PvP because they have a different "Holy Trinity". You will always need someone to take the damage. The best person to take that damage is the one with the most armor and health. ie a tank You will always need someone to replendish the health the tank loses ie a healer You will always need someone to actually kill the monster while it's attention is on the tank ie a damage dealer
That's the part thats pretty redundant. There are plenty of COOP PVE games out there that breaks this mold but RPG gamers think this is the only way to do PVE- this same old unoriginal combat
Give us an example? You mean a game like diablo where there is only DPS and sort of Tanks?
Was thinking about Battlefield FPS games in PVP whereas everyone wears armor. COOP PVE I am thinking about Halo 3, Rainbow 6: Vegas, etc. Anything beyond Coop RPG I think we see innovation and very challenging PVE. In those games everyone wears armor which is much more realistic too me
But those games arent RPGs.... Thats like me saying Halo sucks because it doesnt allow me to get phat loot or give me diffrent stats for what armor I equip or weapons are too easy to get.
Skill-based RPGs usually avoid Trinity when they allow every player to learn how to wear armor w/o heavy penalty.
I find it more realistic that all players can wear armor. That right there at least removes the Tanking role (because everyone can tank)
Also sandbox rpgs usually drop teaming restrictions (only 5 members etc) so that as well helps alleviates Trinity...
edit- I would prefer Tank_Mages outright to the same old Warrior-Mage-Healer thing myself vastly
Asheron's CAll 1 is a perfect example of a game breaking the "holy trinity mold". I had a tank archer with Life and item magic on that game. He also could melee with daggers if I wanted to. This character could buff and bane myself, I could debuff the mobs, I could shoot with my arrows even at point blank range, or I could use my dagger if I wanted to. To heal myself I could either use healing spells or I could use bandages. I could bandage myself in the middle of battle if necessary. I could buff a robe up and wear it to tank mobs.
AC1 completely broke the mold that EQ1 was set in.
And it was a game where being unbalanced was a way of life =P
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Frankly vajuras, i hate you.
I hate the way you think.
I hate all your opinions.
Why?
Because your part of the crowd that is destroying rpgs. It's become quite rampant in the past few years, but in the next 5 years you'll see what i mean.
RPG's are dieing. It's depressing. Traditional combat, and story quality are all being replaced with fast paced action and fps mechanics. The term "action rpg" is being changed into plain "rpg" And with each new one theres a bit more action and a bit less rpg.
What do you want to turn mmorpgs into?
FPS's? Where everyones doing their damage and plowing through worthless mobs, with the bosses which are all overly easy and involve a large amount of strafing and popping in and out of boulders?
If i wanted to play a FPS i'd go play a FPS! STOP TRYING TO RUIN MMORPGS BY TURNING THEM INTO FPS!
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editing in
Tank-takes damage, if we remove the need for tanks then
dps-dps can tank mobs while doing what they do, but if everyone can dps
healing-tanking, dpsing, and self healing. Fantastic.
Basically you want to be able to do everything at once, and never rely on anyone else. Thats the exact opposite of what a mmorpg should be.
I hear all you whiners constantly bitching about classes and levels as if onekilled your puppy. Look at WoW. 4 healing classes, 3 tanking classes, and 9 dps classes(Every class). You have enough choice to get one that fits your playstyle
Are you upset that you can't level as easymode dps spec and later change to leet hardcore pvp spec? Maybe your class isn't as strong as another for a certain role? Well guess what? specs are the same way. A skill based game shouldn't let you change from melee dps to healer because the pvp isn't working that well for you.
A good skill based game(not the crappy systems we've had in the past) Will NOT allow you to be dps-healer-tanks that can do everything. Why? Because now we have better gameplay engines that are beyond just the crappy tank and spank, no ability using systems.
PvE will penalize you for being all 3, and you won't tank, the people who spec properly will, you won't main heal, the people who spec to heal will. And you'd be in one of the "bulk dps" spots.
And a good skill based game would make it difficult for you to change your points.
I hope we can get more votes on this poll. Polls become more and more accurate the bigger population you sample. Hopefully we can get bout a 100 votes on this
But I'm pretty sure of the outcome I've noticed these polls always hint towards a desire to see something different
But yet we keep getting the samething. But I hope WELL Online, Earthrise, Mortal Online, linkrealms, etc will change this
Well in a sense any character you could make would have element of one or more of those three, I prefer to call them defense, offense and support. If given more choice players would most likely create different hybrid builds, but switching from classes to skills will not automatically get rid of the big three, they exist because the game is created in such a way that they are manditory.
I don't like how these three are pretty much required for any major teambased PvE, and I don't like how they operate.
The taunt, tank, beat the crap out of the mob while continuously healing the tank tactic gets old quick. It is like the game makes you use one strategy over and over again.
If you think about it all characters to be effective would have a little defense offense and support abilities, they just focus on different aspects.
Not saying give warriors healing or give priests armor, I don't like classes anyway, but if even though I am skilled for defense tanking I can still do some good damage and even aid my teamates a bit or even though I am skilled for support healing I can pack some damage and protect myself in a fight, then you open up greater tactical options and get away from formulaic teams.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
The point is: if tough PvE encounters can be broken down into just tank, spank, and heal, theyre WAY to simple. We all know thats usually how it works. Find the most one dimensional, specialzed tank, healer, and dps machine, work on a little group coordination, and thats it. Mobs have no counter for it. As long as the players arent idiots who either dps too much or heal too much, the mobs will just keep wacking away on an indestructable tank while the healer heals and the dps shreds them apart.
Not saying give warriors healing or give priests armor, I don't like classes anyway, but if even though I am skilled for defense tanking I can still do some good damage and even aid my teamates a bit or even though I am skilled for support healing I can pack some damage and protect myself in a fight, then you open up greater tactical options and get away from formulaic teams.
Spreading out the components that comprise the "Holy Trinity" roles(tank, damage, heal) to everyone is not opening up more tactical options, you're just making everyone a "Jack-of-all-trades". I'm sure we all know why that's a bad thing.
Yeah, you could be a tank but grab some skills in healing, buffing, damage and whatever else but I could tell you right now I would not want you tanking for me. A tank that used all his available skills to make him a better tank would be much more desireable than you.
What's funny is that your example pretty much described a Protection Paladin in WoW but because they are a hybrid are not nearly as good at tanking as a Warrior.
Not saying give warriors healing or give priests armor, I don't like classes anyway, but if even though I am skilled for defense tanking I can still do some good damage and even aid my teamates a bit or even though I am skilled for support healing I can pack some damage and protect myself in a fight, then you open up greater tactical options and get away from formulaic teams.
Spreading out the components that comprise the "Holy Trinity" roles(tank, damage, heal) to everyone is not opening up more tactical options, you're just making everyone a "Jack-of-all-trades". I'm sure we all know why that's a bad thing. Yeah, you could be a tank but grab some skills in healing, buffing, damage and whatever else but I could tell you right now I would not want you tanking for me. A tank that used all his available skills to make him a better tank would be much more desireable than you. What's funny is that your example pretty much described a Protection Paladin in WoW but because they are a hybrid are not nearly as good at tanking as a Warrior.
If everyone is a hybrid then there is plenty of overlap and indeed much more tactical options open up. Plus there is No single point of failure. City of Heroes players capitalized on this. We brought only 1 tank and the rest were TankMages (Corrupters). However, you could run all 8-Corrupters team cause our buffs were so good we could make a designated target a good tank (overlapping buffs FTW). But we of course pushed this and had everyone bubbled up and tanking
Players understand how not having overlapping roles can suck. If the game provides a well done TankMage alternative they will always be strong choice to bring to encounters.
On City of Heroes (blue side) we had all defenders. Actually on red side we had all Corrupters running end game content
PErhaps everyone might try to kite and fight longrange. It's not a bad idea for one guy to put down a snowstorm to slowdown the mobs while everyone else hovers and fire off long range missiles.
More tactics open up with all that firepower. We had all sorts of AOE overlapping, burning mobs down. OVerlaspping buffs increased our potential through the roof. All the different buffs helped cover all of our holes.
It was crazy having all hybrid teams nuke an instance huge tactical options opened up. Caused a bit of a stink for the other Classes though because they were sort of optional. At least red side we could have used 1 Tank (just 1 lol no other Class)
I'm not even bringing up PVP where an 8-Corrupter team was the STANDARD for PVP red side. Blue side they mixed in Defenders (TankMage hero version) along with Blasters. Keep in mind in City of X games players could buff each other resistances and get up there really high to where squishies could tank lol
The trinity wouldn't be so bad if it was more skill-based, to explain its too 'pushbutton-get instant result on target', in WC3 at least you had skills you had to aim, and you didn't have these target and target rings. I mean a fps you don't have someone selected across the map and then press a button to hit them, you have to actually aim. Now, imagine a mmo where you have to aim your heals, where you have to aim your fireball to get maximum impact etc etc.
Not saying the holy trinity isn't getting boring because it is, just there are reasons for that. Ie. its too montonious. Though I would say this is in part too a lack of successful non-fantasy games in this genre- we are over-consumed by these, and the tank model being too key. Its silly that a class can just press a taunt button and wee it gets taunt, I'd like to see this focused more on maybe physics-based. Ie, tank gets physically in front of healer shielding attacks on him.
Incidentally, and last point. Everyone should play a game called Dota on WC3-the community is inherently insufferable but you get a really interesting take on group-play, where roles aren't set to tank-healer-dps.
Just curious what most people think about this issue. I've read a few developer blogs here and there whereas they desire to maintain the 'status quo' whereas Warriors should Taunt, Healers should Heal, and Mages do the DPS. The mob AI never dashes for the Healer, etc I am pretty bored with the Trinity myself and wish to at least see radically different Classes and roles. Too me, really I find the relationships we see in sandbox MMORPGs much more complex whereas the game is centered around "dragon slaying" but rather everything merging together as a community to achieve goals. For instance, only in EVE Online Alliances do players coordinate on a global scale to relay Intel, lockdown their Bottlenecks, gather resources, build ships, etc on a huge scale. This is teamwork 24/7 and you all live together at the "same location" Too me, this is much deeper then "Raiding" which is something we've seen thrown at us without much evolution for past few decades since EQ1 So below I posted a poll is everyone happy with Trinity the way it is - focus on Warrior-Mage-Healer or do you want to see something new envisioned?
To me, posts like this are muddy thinking. They seem good in theory, but from a game play pov they really wouldnt be...
Taking a fantasy game for example, because to me it seems strange to talk about the classic fantasy holy trinity and then go on the use a scifi space combat mmo as an example, people would just optimise thier characters to a role anyhow.
Think about it...
You need a healer to try and kill the mighty zorg... there are 3 guys who want to come with you, 2 are hybrid mish mash types with heal skills of 50... the other guy has focused on healing and has a heal skill of 200... who are you gonna take? There are 2 guys, one has a attack/ defense skill of 50 and the other has 200... who are you gonna take?
All you get is a game full of whiners saying how hard it is for their mash up character can never get a group.. So then the devs put in more solo content... so more players make jack of all trade characters... so the devs put in more solo content... eventually the core reasons that MMORPGs are special , co-op play and community, are destroyed.
All diluting the roles does is create a server full of PCs optimised for solo play, which considering your seeming preference for teamwork, and I would guess inter-dependance and community, is probably a bad thing for you?
Lets be honest, even if you removed the words 'cleric', or 'warrior', or whatever from a game you would still find yourself asking for someone with a 200 heal or whatever to get the job done.
I prefer classes and defined roles in mmorpgs personally because they act as a shorthand for easy and fast communication. I like a game where I can just call for a L50 cleric and be clear about what I need, rather then discuss with 10 guys what skills they have and havent got.
"Harger! Your our healer! Rezz Jeric quickly! We need him now!"
"Erm... sorry guys... I took heal at 200, but I didnt bother with Rezz..."
So many people in this thread that canot pull their head out of the box to think.
Try out DDO sometimes, due to the possibilities for creating different characters granted by the d20 system allows many to play non-traditional builds/roles.
You'd be suprised at the *gasp* thinking required to complete quests when you don;t have traditional roles filled, but many people (especially hardcore MMO players) are terrified to think outside the box and adapt to non-traditional parties.
As to the post above: I'd take the 1st one that would allow me to fill out my group and adapt.
[quote]Originally posted by vesavius [b][quote]Originally posted by vajuras I prefer classes and defined roles in mmorpgs personally because they act as a shorthand for easy and fast communication. I like a game where I can just call for a L50 cleric and be clear about what I need, rather then discuss with 10 guys what skills they have and havent got. "Harger! Your our healer! Rezz Jeric quickly! We need him now!" "Erm... sorry guys... I took heal at 200, but I didnt bother with Rezz..." "Uh oh..."
[/b][/quote]
*I repeat* We have Classes in EVE Online, etc and they are just as well defined as any other traditional RPG... Dumping trinity does not mean you lack roles. In other genres there is no Trinity yet you still have very precise, well defined roles
Take BF2142 for example. Imagine opposing team functioning as NPCs rather then players. You still have medics. You still have Assault. You still have Recon. The biggie is everyone wears armor so warriors as we know it would be gone. Thats just a pure example how trinity could be gone. Everyone does DPS, Everyone has armor. Yet, everyone has a role
vajuras - I said before that the HARDER the PvE content becomes the more necessary the Holy Trinity becomes.
The "end game content" in CoX is so pathetic easy(what little of it there actually is) a group of one armed monkeys could do it. Theres only a handful of encounters in the entire game that requires any modicum of planning or strategy.
I mean, whats next, bragging that can kill Diablo on Normal with nothing but Amazons?
vajuras - I said before that the HARDER the PvE content becomes the more necessary the Holy Trinity becomes.
That is making the assumption that all MMORPGs must play the same as current ones. I would also argue that MMORPGs are never hard if you have good enough gear/level/skills and basic reading comprehension to know when to use abilities.
The only reason you need the trinity is because the game was created for it. For example all characters in RPGs take damage more often than not, this means that you would need a character to heal, not if the team gets damaged but when it gets damaged, taking damage in a fight is a certainty, this also allows tanks to work because they can absorb the most damage. Of course when we give tanks taunt then the strategy is complete.
But say we changed the focus away from damage absorption and toward damage avoidance where characters are not damaged in every fight and personal defense is key and also dropped taunt, then the healer becomes a safety net that occasionaly heals when needed and the tank becomes a character that can protect people from harm if they get into trouble, maybe through stun, knockdown etc. The key thing is that they can be useful to a team but are not essential, there wouldn't be any essential role to be filled, you change your strategy based on your group composition.
You can't do this now because current RPGs revolve around the trinity you can't escape it, that is the only way to play the game in high end PvE.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
Originally posted by Xiaoki vajuras - I said before that the HARDER the PvE content becomes the more necessary the Holy Trinity becomes. The "end game content" in CoX is so pathetic easy(what little of it there actually is) a group of one armed monkeys could do it. Theres only a handful of encounters in the entire game that requires any modicum of planning or strategy. I mean, whats next, bragging that can kill Diablo on Normal with nothing but Amazons?
In other genres where they have Coop PVE there is a *real* thinking Artificial Intelligence that does true dynamic pathfinding, true collision detection, real Agent AI that makes 'decisions' based on local information, and sometimes there is even a *learning* AI
There is no way you could ever convince a *scripted* AI is anywhere close to what a true AI can do. That is how game developers create mmorpg encountters- they are not AI, they are pure script.
So in other genres they are fighting a true AI and they dont need Trinity. There is no way you could ever convince it's needed. And to top it all off some of them are Classless completely
edit- Also its nice you tried to bash City of Heroes which endgame encounter have you been on? The AI isn't onpar with other genres that run AI on dedicated servers but the argument you presented was wonderfully brief. You realize players can turn down the difficulty in that game to make it easy for newbies to play through right? This is what PUBs play on normally- Easy setting. Just like WoW you can solo easily to level cap.
My SG we always turned it all the way up for maximum XP and we did the AVs. Which endgame encounter did you have on farm?
Nice thanks all that voted so far its gone as I expected there is a strong desire to see something 'new'. This doesnt mean games like Age of Conan, WAR, and others don't have their place. But it does mean there is a crowd of folks that desire to see something 'new'
That's why I play EVE Online. For first time in many years I found an MMO where I really had to work hard to learn whats going on. It's fun being a newbie again <well technically I'm not a newbie anymore but even though I've been playing for awhile now but still feel like there is so much to explore>
Originally posted by CactusmanX Originally posted by Xiaoki vajuras - I said before that the HARDER the PvE content becomes the more necessary the Holy Trinity becomes.
That is making the assumption that all MMORPGs must play the same as current ones. I would also argue that MMORPGs are never hard if you have good enough gear/level/skills and basic reading comprehension to know when to use abilities. The only reason you need the trinity is because the game was created for it. For example all characters in RPGs take damage more often than not, this means that you would need a character to heal, not if the team gets damaged but when it gets damaged, taking damage in a fight is a certainty, this also allows tanks to work because they can absorb the most damage. Of course when we give tanks taunt then the strategy is complete. But say we changed the focus away from damage absorption and toward damage avoidance where characters are not damaged in every fight and personal defense is key and also dropped taunt, then the healer becomes a safety net that occasionaly heals when needed and the tank becomes a character that can protect people from harm if they get into trouble, maybe through stun, knockdown etc. The key thing is that they can be useful to a team but are not essential, there wouldn't be any essential role to be filled, you change your strategy based on your group composition. You can't do this now because current RPGs revolve around the trinity you can't escape it, that is the only way to play the game in high end PvE.
Comments
Originally posted by Xiaoki
The more difficult PvE encounters become the more necessary the "Holy Trinity" is. The PvE "Holy Trinity" is not effective in PvP because they have a different "Holy Trinity".
You will always need someone to take the damage. The best person to take that damage is the one with the most armor and health. ie a tank
You will always need someone to replendish the health the tank loses ie a healer
You will always need someone to actually kill the monster while it's attention is on the tank ie a damage dealer
That's the part thats pretty redundant. There are plenty of COOP PVE games out there that breaks this mold but RPG gamers think this is the only way to do PVE- this same old unoriginal combat
Give us an example? You mean a game like diablo where there is only DPS and sort of Tanks?
True fleet combat has trinity happening with armor reppers in the background and Battleships tanking up front and plenty of Electronic Warfare. Thats the traditional part of RPG combat showing its face Im not arguing that point this post is correct
But the other form of teamwork is indeed securing your bottlenecks, crafting, resource gathering, recons out here patroling, etc. That is the other side of teamwork in EVE Online that breaks the traditional mold of 'trinity'
good point I agree on. But I think everone agrees EVE's combat takes a dip in anycase
Was thinking about Battlefield FPS games in PVP whereas everyone wears armor.
COOP PVE I am thinking about Halo 3, Rainbow 6: Vegas, etc. Anything beyond Coop RPG I think we see innovation and very challenging PVE. In those games everyone wears armor which is much more realistic too me
Nevermind. I give up.
Was thinking about Battlefield FPS games in PVP whereas everyone wears armor.
COOP PVE I am thinking about Halo 3, Rainbow 6: Vegas, etc. Anything beyond Coop RPG I think we see innovation and very challenging PVE. In those games everyone wears armor which is much more realistic too me
But those games arent RPGs....
Thats like me saying Halo sucks because it doesnt allow me to get phat loot or give me diffrent stats for what armor I equip or weapons are too easy to get.
Enlighten me.
How exactly, is a game built upon a skill-based system going to break the mold of the holy trinity?
Will players not have to do damage to kill things?
In AC1 every player was equally capable of damage.
Will players not need to heal to keep from dying?
Every player in AC1 was equally capable of healing themselves.
Will some players not be better able to sustain damage than others?
In AC1 every player was equally capable of taking damage.
If they do need to do these things... then you still have the holy trinity, because the holy trinity consists of roles that are filled by different players. Those roles will be filled regardless of whether the game has classes specifically designed to fit into one of the roles or the game has a plethora of skills and players just pick up the ones they want.
Unless the game we are talking about so greatly redefines the MMORPG genre that there is no need for tanking, healing, or damage dealing, the holy trinity will remain.
Ironically, I believe that a game that did a good job not of breaking, but at least bending, the mold of the holy trinity... was EverQuest. Sure, you had tanks, and healers, and damage dealers. However, there were perhaps only two classes in the entire game (warriors and rogues) that could only fill one of those roles.
Asheron's CAll 1 is a perfect example of a game breaking the "holy trinity mold". I had a tank archer with Life and item magic on that game. He also could melee with daggers if I wanted to. This character could buff and bane myself, I could debuff the mobs, I could shoot with my arrows even at point blank range, or I could use my dagger if I wanted to. To heal myself I could either use healing spells or I could use bandages. I could bandage myself in the middle of battle if necessary. I could buff a robe up and wear it to tank mobs.AC1 completely broke the mold that EQ1 was set in.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
Skill-based RPGs usually avoid Trinity when they allow every player to learn how to wear armor w/o heavy penalty.
I find it more realistic that all players can wear armor. That right there at least removes the Tanking role (because everyone can tank)
Also sandbox rpgs usually drop teaming restrictions (only 5 members etc) so that as well helps alleviates Trinity...
edit- I would prefer Tank_Mages outright to the same old Warrior-Mage-Healer thing myself vastly
And it was a game where being unbalanced was a way of life =P
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Frankly vajuras, i hate you.
I hate the way you think.
I hate all your opinions.
Why?
Because your part of the crowd that is destroying rpgs. It's become quite rampant in the past few years, but in the next 5 years you'll see what i mean.
RPG's are dieing. It's depressing. Traditional combat, and story quality are all being replaced with fast paced action and fps mechanics. The term "action rpg" is being changed into plain "rpg" And with each new one theres a bit more action and a bit less rpg.
What do you want to turn mmorpgs into?
FPS's? Where everyones doing their damage and plowing through worthless mobs, with the bosses which are all overly easy and involve a large amount of strafing and popping in and out of boulders?
If i wanted to play a FPS i'd go play a FPS! STOP TRYING TO RUIN MMORPGS BY TURNING THEM INTO FPS!
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editing in
Tank-takes damage, if we remove the need for tanks then
dps-dps can tank mobs while doing what they do, but if everyone can dps
healing-tanking, dpsing, and self healing. Fantastic.
Basically you want to be able to do everything at once, and never rely on anyone else. Thats the exact opposite of what a mmorpg should be.
I hear all you whiners constantly bitching about classes and levels as if onekilled your puppy. Look at WoW. 4 healing classes, 3 tanking classes, and 9 dps classes(Every class). You have enough choice to get one that fits your playstyle
Are you upset that you can't level as easymode dps spec and later change to leet hardcore pvp spec? Maybe your class isn't as strong as another for a certain role? Well guess what? specs are the same way. A skill based game shouldn't let you change from melee dps to healer because the pvp isn't working that well for you.
A good skill based game(not the crappy systems we've had in the past) Will NOT allow you to be dps-healer-tanks that can do everything. Why? Because now we have better gameplay engines that are beyond just the crappy tank and spank, no ability using systems.
PvE will penalize you for being all 3, and you won't tank, the people who spec properly will, you won't main heal, the people who spec to heal will. And you'd be in one of the "bulk dps" spots.
And a good skill based game would make it difficult for you to change your points.
I hope we can get more votes on this poll. Polls become more and more accurate the bigger population you sample. Hopefully we can get bout a 100 votes on this
But I'm pretty sure of the outcome I've noticed these polls always hint towards a desire to see something different
But yet we keep getting the samething. But I hope WELL Online, Earthrise, Mortal Online, linkrealms, etc will change this
Bring back Dungeonkeeper as a MMORPG.
Well in a sense any character you could make would have element of one or more of those three, I prefer to call them defense, offense and support. If given more choice players would most likely create different hybrid builds, but switching from classes to skills will not automatically get rid of the big three, they exist because the game is created in such a way that they are manditory.
I don't like how these three are pretty much required for any major teambased PvE, and I don't like how they operate.
The taunt, tank, beat the crap out of the mob while continuously healing the tank tactic gets old quick. It is like the game makes you use one strategy over and over again.
If you think about it all characters to be effective would have a little defense offense and support abilities, they just focus on different aspects.
Not saying give warriors healing or give priests armor, I don't like classes anyway, but if even though I am skilled for defense tanking I can still do some good damage and even aid my teamates a bit or even though I am skilled for support healing I can pack some damage and protect myself in a fight, then you open up greater tactical options and get away from formulaic teams.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
The point is: if tough PvE encounters can be broken down into just tank, spank, and heal, theyre WAY to simple. We all know thats usually how it works. Find the most one dimensional, specialzed tank, healer, and dps machine, work on a little group coordination, and thats it. Mobs have no counter for it. As long as the players arent idiots who either dps too much or heal too much, the mobs will just keep wacking away on an indestructable tank while the healer heals and the dps shreds them apart.
Two was great but i felt it ended whereas number one I dont think I ever got to the end.
Yeah, you could be a tank but grab some skills in healing, buffing, damage and whatever else but I could tell you right now I would not want you tanking for me. A tank that used all his available skills to make him a better tank would be much more desireable than you.
What's funny is that your example pretty much described a Protection Paladin in WoW but because they are a hybrid are not nearly as good at tanking as a Warrior.
If everyone is a hybrid then there is plenty of overlap and indeed much more tactical options open up. Plus there is No single point of failure. City of Heroes players capitalized on this. We brought only 1 tank and the rest were TankMages (Corrupters). However, you could run all 8-Corrupters team cause our buffs were so good we could make a designated target a good tank (overlapping buffs FTW). But we of course pushed this and had everyone bubbled up and tanking
Players understand how not having overlapping roles can suck. If the game provides a well done TankMage alternative they will always be strong choice to bring to encounters.
On City of Heroes (blue side) we had all defenders. Actually on red side we had all Corrupters running end game content
PErhaps everyone might try to kite and fight longrange. It's not a bad idea for one guy to put down a snowstorm to slowdown the mobs while everyone else hovers and fire off long range missiles.
More tactics open up with all that firepower. We had all sorts of AOE overlapping, burning mobs down. OVerlaspping buffs increased our potential through the roof. All the different buffs helped cover all of our holes.
It was crazy having all hybrid teams nuke an instance huge tactical options opened up. Caused a bit of a stink for the other Classes though because they were sort of optional. At least red side we could have used 1 Tank (just 1 lol no other Class)
I'm not even bringing up PVP where an 8-Corrupter team was the STANDARD for PVP red side. Blue side they mixed in Defenders (TankMage hero version) along with Blasters. Keep in mind in City of X games players could buff each other resistances and get up there really high to where squishies could tank lol
Two was great but i felt it ended whereas number one I dont think I ever got to the end.
Yeah they should update it Bullfrog always made a bunch of games I liked.
The trinity wouldn't be so bad if it was more skill-based, to explain its too 'pushbutton-get instant result on target', in WC3 at least you had skills you had to aim, and you didn't have these target and target rings. I mean a fps you don't have someone selected across the map and then press a button to hit them, you have to actually aim. Now, imagine a mmo where you have to aim your heals, where you have to aim your fireball to get maximum impact etc etc.
Not saying the holy trinity isn't getting boring because it is, just there are reasons for that. Ie. its too montonious. Though I would say this is in part too a lack of successful non-fantasy games in this genre- we are over-consumed by these, and the tank model being too key. Its silly that a class can just press a taunt button and wee it gets taunt, I'd like to see this focused more on maybe physics-based. Ie, tank gets physically in front of healer shielding attacks on him.
Incidentally, and last point. Everyone should play a game called Dota on WC3-the community is inherently insufferable but you get a really interesting take on group-play, where roles aren't set to tank-healer-dps.
To me, posts like this are muddy thinking. They seem good in theory, but from a game play pov they really wouldnt be...
Taking a fantasy game for example, because to me it seems strange to talk about the classic fantasy holy trinity and then go on the use a scifi space combat mmo as an example, people would just optimise thier characters to a role anyhow.
Think about it...
You need a healer to try and kill the mighty zorg... there are 3 guys who want to come with you, 2 are hybrid mish mash types with heal skills of 50... the other guy has focused on healing and has a heal skill of 200... who are you gonna take? There are 2 guys, one has a attack/ defense skill of 50 and the other has 200... who are you gonna take?
All you get is a game full of whiners saying how hard it is for their mash up character can never get a group.. So then the devs put in more solo content... so more players make jack of all trade characters... so the devs put in more solo content... eventually the core reasons that MMORPGs are special , co-op play and community, are destroyed.
All diluting the roles does is create a server full of PCs optimised for solo play, which considering your seeming preference for teamwork, and I would guess inter-dependance and community, is probably a bad thing for you?
Lets be honest, even if you removed the words 'cleric', or 'warrior', or whatever from a game you would still find yourself asking for someone with a 200 heal or whatever to get the job done.
I prefer classes and defined roles in mmorpgs personally because they act as a shorthand for easy and fast communication. I like a game where I can just call for a L50 cleric and be clear about what I need, rather then discuss with 10 guys what skills they have and havent got.
"Harger! Your our healer! Rezz Jeric quickly! We need him now!"
"Erm... sorry guys... I took heal at 200, but I didnt bother with Rezz..."
"Uh oh..."
*Sigh*
So many people in this thread that canot pull their head out of the box to think.
Try out DDO sometimes, due to the possibilities for creating different characters granted by the d20 system allows many to play non-traditional builds/roles.
You'd be suprised at the *gasp* thinking required to complete quests when you don;t have traditional roles filled, but many people (especially hardcore MMO players) are terrified to think outside the box and adapt to non-traditional parties.
As to the post above: I'd take the 1st one that would allow me to fill out my group and adapt.
[quote]Originally posted by vesavius
[b][quote]Originally posted by vajuras
I prefer classes and defined roles in mmorpgs personally because they act as a shorthand for easy and fast communication. I like a game where I can just call for a L50 cleric and be clear about what I need, rather then discuss with 10 guys what skills they have and havent got.
"Harger! Your our healer! Rezz Jeric quickly! We need him now!"
"Erm... sorry guys... I took heal at 200, but I didnt bother with Rezz..."
"Uh oh..."
[/b][/quote]
*I repeat* We have Classes in EVE Online, etc and they are just as well defined as any other traditional RPG... Dumping trinity does not mean you lack roles. In other genres there is no Trinity yet you still have very precise, well defined roles
Take BF2142 for example. Imagine opposing team functioning as NPCs rather then players. You still have medics. You still have Assault. You still have Recon. The biggie is everyone wears armor so warriors as we know it would be gone. Thats just a pure example how trinity could be gone. Everyone does DPS, Everyone has armor. Yet, everyone has a role
vajuras - I said before that the HARDER the PvE content becomes the more necessary the Holy Trinity becomes.
The "end game content" in CoX is so pathetic easy(what little of it there actually is) a group of one armed monkeys could do it. Theres only a handful of encounters in the entire game that requires any modicum of planning or strategy.
I mean, whats next, bragging that can kill Diablo on Normal with nothing but Amazons?
That is making the assumption that all MMORPGs must play the same as current ones. I would also argue that MMORPGs are never hard if you have good enough gear/level/skills and basic reading comprehension to know when to use abilities.
The only reason you need the trinity is because the game was created for it. For example all characters in RPGs take damage more often than not, this means that you would need a character to heal, not if the team gets damaged but when it gets damaged, taking damage in a fight is a certainty, this also allows tanks to work because they can absorb the most damage. Of course when we give tanks taunt then the strategy is complete.
But say we changed the focus away from damage absorption and toward damage avoidance where characters are not damaged in every fight and personal defense is key and also dropped taunt, then the healer becomes a safety net that occasionaly heals when needed and the tank becomes a character that can protect people from harm if they get into trouble, maybe through stun, knockdown etc. The key thing is that they can be useful to a team but are not essential, there wouldn't be any essential role to be filled, you change your strategy based on your group composition.
You can't do this now because current RPGs revolve around the trinity you can't escape it, that is the only way to play the game in high end PvE.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
In other genres where they have Coop PVE there is a *real* thinking Artificial Intelligence that does true dynamic pathfinding, true collision detection, real Agent AI that makes 'decisions' based on local information, and sometimes there is even a *learning* AI
There is no way you could ever convince a *scripted* AI is anywhere close to what a true AI can do. That is how game developers create mmorpg encountters- they are not AI, they are pure script.
So in other genres they are fighting a true AI and they dont need Trinity. There is no way you could ever convince it's needed. And to top it all off some of them are Classless completely
edit- Also its nice you tried to bash City of Heroes which endgame encounter have you been on? The AI isn't onpar with other genres that run AI on dedicated servers but the argument you presented was wonderfully brief. You realize players can turn down the difficulty in that game to make it easy for newbies to play through right? This is what PUBs play on normally- Easy setting. Just like WoW you can solo easily to level cap.
My SG we always turned it all the way up for maximum XP and we did the AVs. Which endgame encounter did you have on farm?
Nice thanks all that voted so far its gone as I expected there is a strong desire to see something 'new'. This doesnt mean games like Age of Conan, WAR, and others don't have their place. But it does mean there is a crowd of folks that desire to see something 'new'
That's why I play EVE Online. For first time in many years I found an MMO where I really had to work hard to learn whats going on. It's fun being a newbie again <well technically I'm not a newbie anymore but even though I've been playing for awhile now but still feel like there is so much to explore>
The only reason you need the trinity is because the game was created for it. For example all characters in RPGs take damage more often than not, this means that you would need a character to heal, not if the team gets damaged but when it gets damaged, taking damage in a fight is a certainty, this also allows tanks to work because they can absorb the most damage. Of course when we give tanks taunt then the strategy is complete.
But say we changed the focus away from damage absorption and toward damage avoidance where characters are not damaged in every fight and personal defense is key and also dropped taunt, then the healer becomes a safety net that occasionaly heals when needed and the tank becomes a character that can protect people from harm if they get into trouble, maybe through stun, knockdown etc. The key thing is that they can be useful to a team but are not essential, there wouldn't be any essential role to be filled, you change your strategy based on your group composition.
You can't do this now because current RPGs revolve around the trinity you can't escape it, that is the only way to play the game in high end PvE.
Always liked your ideas and I agree fully.