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What is wrong with MMORPGs.... YOU!!!!!!!
thecandide
Member Posts: 101
This was originally a response to a post on the Anarchy Online Forum but I think everyone needs to hear it.....
Thank you Crock for that message because it just caused me to have an epiphany! I know what's wrong with all the MMORPGs! Why are MMORPGs, which are created by (admit it) talented and creative people, always getting hammered with criticism (like Crock's post here) unlike there much hailed offline counter parts? I tell you why, human competitive nature!!! That's right unlike offline rpgs, people playing MMORPGs know they are playing with other humans and so strive to be better than everyone else! That is not an inherent problem in itself but with everyone striving to be a higher level YOU ALL HAVE TOTALLY FORGOT YOU ARE PLAYING A ROLE PLAYING GAME!!!! People on MMORPGs today have become so competitive and wrapped up in being better than other people that GETTING TO A HIGHER LEVEL AND MAKING MORE MONEY HAS ACTUALLY BEEN BROKEN DOWN TO A SCIENCE!!! Don't believe me... look at all the online guides and stuff for sale! People everywhere are paying top dollar for characters that are max level! They don't even care they have missed the entire game... they just want the most uber l33t character on the server! The whole "Its a total level grind man!!" statement is total bs! Not all of the MMORPGs out there "has" to be a level grind, and the worse part is YOU ALL KNOW IT! Even in FFXI I used to enjoy taking a few buddies off the beaten path and go exploring, hunt in untouched areas, or hell even just sit around and chat while fishing. I even read a EQ guide that teaches you to play the game without killing anything! Finally Morrowind, Chrono Trigger, FF, and all the other classic RPGs were just as easy! It was the same leveling and fighting system that exists on MMOPRGs today, but no one complaining about it. Why, because there was no one to compete against, it was just you and you character. No one else was running around with 10x the stuff you had making you feel jealous. So that only left you with unabated role playing enjoyment! You see that's the point ROLE PLAYING! YOU DON'T HAVE TO GRIND AND CAMP!!!!! With that said, MMORPGs are mainly defined by the community, you'll notice that some MMORPGs get dogged or praised based on the community. So you know what.... the current state of MMORPGs is ALL OUR FAULT! That's right I said it! It had to be said! We have fostered this current state of mind towards leveling and obtaining wealth, and we have neglected the role playing aspect and a whole community! All I'm trying to say is that you have all become so concentrated on the end of the journey (max level) that you have forgotten to enjoy they they journey itself, and then complaining about it like its the devs fault your obsessed with maxing you character! That's enough ranting and raving for one night, I could go on forever, thank you for hearing me out.....
Comments
Problem with the above post is that it is wrong.
People dont complain about single palyer games because those games do what they are meant to do, and do it well. When playing a single player MMORPG i tend to feel like i am roleplaying.
MMORPG's just do not give people the opportunity to do anything other than grind to high levels, put simply if you arent grinding then the games become boring. Roleplaying is not sitting in taverns talking, you dont need to buy a game for that, roleplaying is not talking in ye olde english. Yet game developers (and yes they are talented people) seem to think that this is what roleplaying is. They give us no choice with what we do with our characters, or with how we play the game.
And that is the problem.
(PS: and you are part right because lots of people play these games intent on being the best, but there are lots and lots of people who play these games intending to roleplay, but finding they simply cant)
MUAHAHAHAHAHA
MUAHAHAHAHAHA
While I understand the author's point of view, I disagree. Fundamentally games like Baldur's Gate and Civilization are just better games than mmogs. Take BG2 for example: almost immediately your actions can determine the future of a city. There's a ton of different quests you can do (and some of them don't involve killing or fedex, imagine that
), and the different spells that mages get are really cool and imaginative, instead of just upgrades of the same thing you had at level one.
edit: I also forgot to add that most mmogs do not give me the feeling that I am a hero. To date only single rpgs and CoH are effective in that area.
Anyone remember Secret of Mana, for the SNES? Loved that game... was a cooperative multiplayer rpg, something very rare in console games back then.Just because there's more than 1 person playing, doesn't mean that they have to compete with one another.
I agree with you when you say people in mmorpgs see each other as competition. Thats because the games don't provide any other danger or threat to your existance in the world. There's no world/city to save, no urgent problem to solve. MMorpg worlds are lifeless and static because you're thrown into a world that doesn't need you. Why do so many people consider customization and individuality so important? Its not like such things would make you uber-er or stronger. Players want to stand out, to be a unique someone that can make a difference, just like in a single player rpg.
Some people have said permadeath is the only sense of danger and risk that can be put into a mmorpg. How about instead of permadeath, permanent consequences? Every town in a PvE game is invincible, no evil army threatening, and no mobs bothering the populace. I can choose to kill that mob, or not. Yawn. Instead, if i let that orc scout run by, it'll be a forerunner of an enemy invasion of a town. I have to warn other PC's to get together to fight them off. NPC's will be slaughtered and i won't be able to buy/sell stuff there or get quests if i fail. There is a mad evil scientist building a weapon in a fortress. If players don't work together to battle their way in to kill him, city #4 will be annihilated. Even Power Rangers can come up with a new threat to the world on a weekly basis. Persistant worlds are frankly, a little too persistant. People will protect that which is important to them. Create a beautiful city full of life and interesting little things. Then show the gamers what happens to it, if they decide to farm for exp and gold, instead of working together for the common good.
It doesn't have to be computer controlled either, if you think this is too much to program.A pvp game that allows evil players to attack the world and good players to defend it, would allow much of the same purpose. The problem with many PvP games in terms of RP, is the only focus these days is on being the best clan or owning the most property. All evil players must be given tools to affect the world, so that its a threat to the good players who want to protect it. Storyline and action/consequence driven gameplay is what mmorpgs need.
Actually, I've been playing FFXI lately, and I feel no reason to lvl fast, be better than everyone (heck, ANYONE), I jus play to have fun... Some games, lvling n getting better equips, n being richer than everyone else is so, so important... Cuz thats all there is to do...
But ffxi is great. The community is great. I feel absolutely no competition at all ^-^ I jus do wat I feel like doing when I feel like doing it while talking to frenly ppl! Wish more games like that..
EDIT: hehe been stalking this forum for a while... my 1st post! ^-^
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Zimok - PS - Emerald
Zimok - SWG - Bloodfin
I thk game developers just:
1) not preparing games well before releasing- swg comes to mind since they still soughting out major issues.Major issues dont tend to be resolved purely because developers wana start making a profit asap .
2) not responding to developing the game fast enough - gamers are lvlling or completing quests quickly that developers cant keep up. ppl therefore tend to get bored easily.
i guess having a penalty of losing exp if u die will help a bit( will be exciting too )
2)dont give the game any purpose- its left up to the community to give the game a purpose, which in the case of lineage2 can end up damaging the game( ppl taking over whole maps & using bots etc to make real money). ppl just decide being the highest lvl with the rarest items is the way to go.
i guess a game which has a good balance of crafting/farming , PVE , quests/missions & PVP will do well if it also meant u need to participate in all of them to achieve a specific goal and be classed as somone who achieved something in th game. So ppl wouldnt rely on being the highest lvl or having the most money as that woulndt work. With the introduction of death penalty and need to compete with other races/allies to complete certain tasks would make it interesting.
Alot of games tend to drift more towards one that ppl like me get bored or even worse start hating the game .
I really like MMORPGs the way they are, and I really HATE single player RPGs, with the possible exception of Morrowind... Although playing that gives me terrible motion sickness, so that kind of kills it for me.
It's not really the social aspect for me. I don't like people that much. I am just terribly goal-driven, and the current wave of popular MMORPGs caters to people like me.
And, as far as those single player RPGs, it comes down to this: I have no interest in playing along with someone else's storyline. I want to create my own stories. I can do that in MMORPGs. I worry that some of the next generation MMORPGs might have too much storyline, which would be annoying, if it can't be ignored.
I guess I am the freak here. Oh, well. I don't see what's wrong with the games either. But if the community sucks, they can make it suck for everyone.
~*~
neschria
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This is where I draw the line: __________________.
The dev team of any game sets the foundation that the player community builds their opinions apon.
There is a psych thing "The Clown Affect" this is where someone, anyone who puts on a clown suit/costume can become a totally different personality. MMORPGs have this. Anyone can log into a game and do anything. Without fear of consequences. There is very little you can do to identify the person. This provides any player with a layer of protection - this distance grants anyone to enter a game the ability to behave however they see fit - without fear of the consequences of their actions.
I believe that you have factors in building the community. The Devs are one factor. The players are another. It takes both.
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My dog barks some. Mentally you picture my dog, but I have not told you the type of dog which I have. Perhaps you even picture Toto, from "The Wizard of Oz." But I warn you, my dog is always with me.
Its true i never did play UO, but i have heard about its freedom, and it seems to be the shining example of MMORPG's.
But i am more refering to recent games, when EQ came out it seemed to find a niche and a lot of player flocked to it, and have stuck to it. Other games companies saw that success and tried to simply copy it, but EQ itself did not have any proper roleplaying experiences. So when comanies copied it there have eventually been less and less opportunities to roleplay. And game have become levelling fests. Either to get to a high enough level for PvP or so they can defeat the best monsters and get the best loot.
This is the problem these days, people are bored of grinding level upon level. Games need the levelling aspect, and the character advancement. But there needs to be something to do other than grinding or fedex'ing, and these tasks need to be worthwhile. They need to ease the grind by contributing to the way you level your character. In short there needs to be a way to advance in level by roleplaying. If a thief infiltrates a camp and kills the leader causing the camp to disband and averting a threat to the city then he needs to get more xp than thatr for killing the boss. Because he has played in his role. And killing that boss needs to be a random encounter rather than just a set mission. There simply needs to be many many ways to complete any task depending on class. Allowing you to roleplay.
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MUAHAHAHAHAHA
The problem with MMORPGs right now is that they are designed around leveling up and becoming more powerful. While you *can* spend an hour or two fishing with your buds, it leaves a feeling of unaccomplishment, as it gets you nowhere.
In the reality of MMORPG games, people are, fundementally, competing to survive, just as we do in real life. You need those gold pieces to survive. you need that sword to get anything done. However, with heavily a restricting set of rules (i.e. consentual PvP only), the risk vs. reward system becomes unstable and the competition becomes undefined.
People really are left with nothing to do but grind their characters. This becomes boring fast. In a game where PvP is a constant threat and the market is %100 player-driven, the competition becomes from just making better and better characters to just not dying. Which, in my opinion, is not only more realistic, but more fun.
Also, as previously stated in this thread (and rather brilliantly at that), the oppurtunity of roleplaying requires the freedom to define your character in other ways than just improving stats and equipment. As a veteran of pre-renaissance Ultima Online, I know that this is possible. UO offered a gameplay experience unrivaled in the MMORPG industry. Villains and brigands plagued the land, valiant defenders of justice waged war against the wicked, and humble artisans were the backbone of society.
THis is unseen in today's MMORPGs. There is no open PvP, no player-run economies (except SWG), and
The sad truth is (or in part is), the developers want our money. How do they do this? By creating a time sink, and by tapping in to peoples natural competitive desire to be the best.
To put in the level of story content seen in a single player offline RPG would be almost impossible. Your average RPG can normally be beaten in around 50 hours... 50 hours to an MMORPG player is a blink of an eye. So MMORPG devs spread the story over the entire game, and more often than not seem to concern themselves more with releasing high end content than engaging storyarchs for low to mid level players. This keeps ppl playing (and paying).
I agree that MMORPG's should have a lot of Roleplaying, but I can't think of any that give the player tools to create exciting events. Also, for every player who wants to Roleplay, another player wants deep and engaging stories/activities at EVERY level.
The MMORPG genre needs a shake up. It needs to provide the same level of action/excitment/story as any offline RPG, and also cater for the RP'er who doesn't want to conern themselves with the overall story. Players need to feel that they, as an individual, guild or group are making a difference to the world they inhabit; and we need events that capture the imagination and give the player a sense of self worth.
notice im not aiming thsi at anybody at peticular.
But its funny how everyone blames the game developers.
"boo SWG is crap"
well they have over 200k subscribers, im sorry but SWG is not crap.
MMORPGS are a NICHE genre.
Unfortunatly, there are some of us (me included) have not found a mmorpg that caters to our niche yet.
MMORPG developers arenet jsut out to make money, they have to make the game fun.
the only catch is.
Everyone who likes the game, just logs into the game and plays it.
Everyone who doesnt like it tend to go post there comments and post on forums looking for a better one while (some people) whine and mock current mmorpgs.
Its NOT us, its NOT the developer. Either you havent found a MMORPG that caters to your niche, or there isnt one out yet.
Altough I think you will see more niche games comming out soon, and hopefully you will find one for you.
after 6 or so years, I had to change it a little...
What I miss about MMORPGs is that they all seem to lack the RP aspect of MMORPG. Why call them MMORPGs if they're all about grinding and nothing else. Lineage 2 is a perfect example of this. Lineage 2 is just one big grind and nothing else. It showed so much potential but like many before it, just never lived up to it. I have hopes that EQ2 is gonna bring back some of the RP aspect that has been missing for so long. But then again, they may very well not live up to the hype either.
I want to see a game that forces its community to be somewhat creative. I'm not saying you have to be someone who could write novels but, I mean when you see names like Toiletblocker44 and things like that; the word immature comes to mind. There needs to be a little more RP in MMORPGs.
"This one a long time have I watched. All his life has he looked away, to the horizon, to the future. Never his mind on where he was hurmph! What he was doing Hurmph! Excitement heh. Adventure heh! A jedi craves not these things. You are reckless."
-Yoda
Dunno if there's truly a way to force people to roleplay.
All i can think of atm is give them a good reason to, like my consequences idea, and hope for a mature community.
"This one a long time have I watched. All his life has he looked away, to the horizon, to the future. Never his mind on where he was hurmph! What he was doing Hurmph! Excitement heh. Adventure heh! A jedi craves not these things. You are reckless."
-Yoda
Idk......for the most part I think what that guy said....is a good point.....
Becasue notice......alot of peoplremplain that in CoH.......There is no loot?...So....I mean why do peopel always need loot?Why?whats the point????
The point is to look better....fight better.....kill better and faster.....hit harder...run faster...cast faster.......then everyone else play the same game you are........
And every body complains about how a game has a level grind.....if you play say...5 mmorpgs.....and all have a similar level grind and you dislike it.....why do you still play other mmorpgs then.....I guess becasue with out that grind some games are boring.....I mean i've noticed how people complain all about how a level grind ruined a game for then......notice that they are complaining becasuse after level 10....when you can lose your items...and lose experience and coin.......you have to work for all that back........people at that point are now complaining that the devs...make then work for what they have lost stupidly...purposely...not purposely what ever........
I meam...in Lineage 2....EQ.....DAoC...CoH....FFXI.....Horizons.......I have looked in all the boards on this site and each has atleast one thread complaining about the Level grind......
I mean people...big deal..you now have to work for your gear....your coin...your experience........if you don't like that.......then don't play.....and if you do play....then don't complain......
now to move on.....
I don't think the community alone makes a game....like in horizons for instance.....sure not many peopel played.....but even half the time when i was alone and like not talking.....I was having alot of fun just running around...fighting......and crafting and minning....and all that.......so its not entirely the community......
becasue every game has a similar community.....with these sorta categories.....
Noobs.......yeah the beggars....ones asking for little help sometimes.....or sometimes asking for everything.......and also same for the little ones who run around talking in the l33t talk.......
Casual players.....yeah people who only play like 1-3 hours a day or even at a time....someitmes you dont see to often and all ya know......
Hardcore players....someone you see on all the time..most of the time these people are sorta mean or thick headed..and don't like being bothered.....sometimes they are really nice and help ya out and everythign.....these guys liek to get on and level level level level and loot loot loot and quest quest quest and craft craft craft lol...gotta love some of these guys.....
Hardcore player type 2.....ones who want to be better then everyone....better gear...weapons....better everything.....they want to be untouchable and everything.......and never help anyone becasue they see everyone as if they are under them.......
Social player......ones who don't roam much or anythign...jsut some times like to sit around a town or whatever and talk to everyone of thier guildies and friends...and stuff...usually nice people because they try making alot of friends.......
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Also another thing.....why in most or all mmorpgs....pvp makes the game???Why? why do you have to fight other players all the time???to show off how powerful you are with all your uber l33t gear????who actually cares.....I mean people like to pvp for fun....i do it in shadowbane...and have in DAoC....and have in EQ.....alot of fun...but i mean...its nothing to show off in.........
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I Love how people complain how alot of games after awhile you need to group and its too hard to solo......so what??your hercules and can take on a fully grown dragon on your own?????
Or how in FFXI alot of people dislike that game casue you NEED groups....well.....let me see.....EVERY FINAL FANTASY YOU HAD GROUPS.....squall...rinoa...zell.............Tidus...auron...Yuna....I mean in FF games your never alone......so maybe in XI there trying to keep that whole group feel.genre......
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O NO CRAFTING SUX IN THIS GAME SO I THINK THIS GAME IS HORRIBLE.....
Why does crafting need to be good for the rest of the game to be good?I mean seriously......I love crafting.....but i am not a huge fan of crafting in EQ I didn't like the whole sit....with all materials...and click craft....craft....craft....
I loved Horizons crafting ability.......mine this and this.....smelt it.......Hammer the ore......and you have a finished product...makes yo uwork for your crafted items......
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Well this is all i am gonna say for now.....
"Everyones life has a beginning and an end, No one can change that."-Hiko
"If you wish to taste the ground, then feel free to attack."-Kenshin Himura
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WoW
-Rhalon 85 B.E. rogue
-Rhalon 81 UD Mage
-Doneski 85 Orc death knight
"Everyones life has a beginning and an end, No one can change that."-Hiko
"If you wish to taste the ground, then feel free to attack."-Kenshin Himura
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you know what the real problem is?....
YOUR OUT OF ORDER!!!
HE'S OUT OF ORDER!!!!!
THIS WHOLE FREAKIN THREAD IS OUT OF ORDER!!!!!
..That includes you Fuzzy eyebrows!
but seriously, we you advance to slowly the level grind makes the game boring, not to mention what made me quit AO, was the grind came down to only one kind of mob worth killing for xp.. and the game got real boring after camping hecklers all day. But the AO community was great. (unless your talking Clan vs Omni, some people took that to seriously
OMG. secret of mana, prolly the best RPG ever, and that is mostly due to the fact you could play more then 1 person. I actually played this on my computer not 6 months ago, I downloaded a EMU just for that reason, and allthough graphics is "lacking" by today standards, and I played it alone it still rocked.
Oh and while I was at it I played trough shadowrun as well, the second best RPG ever..
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Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
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Read my add, And that will fix what you are saying! ADD is What you want!
i,m not saying swg is crap its pretty good game but i thk they could have done alot lot better with it.
ive stopped playing it since ive got bored doing same missons over and over again and the endless crafting and since wasnt much of a community on the server i played on.
i thk no mmporg has got the balance right between all the elements of a good game whether it be crafting or pve or quests etc. swg seems to try to achieve this but somehow has failed to do it properly.
OMG. secret of mana, prolly the best RPG ever, and that is mostly due to the fact you could play more then 1 person. I actually played this on my computer not 6 months ago, I downloaded a EMU just for that reason, and allthough graphics is "lacking" by today standards, and I played it alone it still rocked.
Oh and while I was at it I played trough shadowrun as well, the second best RPG ever..
You guys ever tried secret of mana2? Was never released in the US, some fan subbers were nice enough to make a fully translated version and put out the rom for snes emu. Look it up, you'll like it.
SWG suffers from some piss-poor design choices, like their entire db.
There's also the fact that it's SOE in charge, and the micromanagement from Lucasarts, who both leave the devs with egg on their face, holding the bag, but unable to say, 'Hey, it ain't us making these assbackwords decisions, it's the beancounters at SOE/Lucasarts'
Funny thing to me, with all this crying for RP in RPGs is that when I rp'd my character in SWG, or any of the other games I've played, I caught a metric ton of crap, even from so called roleplayers, for being an asshole. For example, my character in SWG was totally self serving, and cared nothing for no one. She would shoot you just as soon as look at you. You get the idea. And if I actually tried to rp that, oh the bitching and crying that would commence. And thats why there is no rp in MMORPGS, because there is no standardized way to roleplay. For me, it's about taking aspects of my personality, or aspects of other personalities, and running with them, seeing how things turn out. It's sort of a selfdiscovery meets social experiment thing. Others see rp as theeing and thouing constantly, although these people are usually beaten senseless as they prove to be an irritant to everyone. For some roleplaying involves finding an equally creepy, lonely fruitcake, and getting married in game then finding an isolated spot to cyber. Even more obnoxious are the toads that act out, and then use rping a psycho as their excuse. As punishment for such behaviour, I propose they be locked in an actual Psych ward, so they can get a first hand look at what real psychos are like.
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They panic, so... just hold them down
I could live like this
I'm closing in; hate all around
I could be like this
Hearing them; them in my head
How can they be so sweet... sweet?
See this is exactly what i am talking about, in every game there is going to be a grind to level up. There HAS to be a grind, in fact i would like the grind so hard that only 5 out of every thousand players manage to cap their character.
However that grind should not simply be kill, kill, kill, broken up by the occasional fedex mission. If you had as much fun on lvl 1 as you could on max level then you wouldnt care if you were getting the best xp.
People who comlplain about only one mob worth killing for the xp, thats the whole attitide that ruins games. try and have some fun at whatever level you are on and dont care how fast you get to the next level.
But what games need is a completely varied way to level your character, i want to see a game where going out to kill, kill, kill is actually bad, and will earn you less xp than somebody who goes out and does something in character. For example you are an elf, your in the woods. on your left is a group of 10 orcs, and on your right is one orc, with a woodcutters axe. Do you kill the 10 orcs for the xp, or follow the one orc because he looks like he is going to cut a tree down in your precious forest. Then once he begins to cut you attack, stricking the fear of god into the orc, wounding him and generally making him never want to cut down a tree again. Then you let him limo away to tell his clan that the forest is dangerous. This should gain you far more xp than killing the 10 orcs. On the other hand if you were a drawfen orcslayer then you would shout your battlecry and attack the 10, trying to be loud enough for the lone orc to hear. This would get you more xp because as an orcslayer it is in your character to kill the orcs.
The grind needs to be split up with quests, which actually affect the world. I have stated in several other threads how it is perfectly possible to create a series of random encounters which are actually quests to change the face of the game. And these encounters will be found not by those on the highest level, but those who happen to donate money to the begger, or those who happen to overhear a conversation, or happen to be in the right place in the woods.
This way anybody can have the chance to take part in a meaningful story.
For example when walking through the woods you hear voices, which in some games is normal as you hear the pre-programmed talk or the enemy. usually this means nothing, but this time you notice them talking about a planned attack on the city. You could attack them and extract more details, you could evesdrop. You could kill them outright. or you could ignore them. but then do you go back and inform the NPC town mayor, so he can organise defences? or do you try and stop them alone? You actions would have consequences. If you ignored the threat then a huge army of orcs could would attack the city unprepared, but if you warn the city then it will be fortified against attack and will survice. This will make you feel like you have saved the city, and could be given a reward like a badge calling you 'savior of city #15'.
if there was ample things to do at any level, which would allow you to level up (because the best reward is always experience) but which werent always kill, kill, kill, and were fun then you would be happy to grin. Because it would be fun. And you would be thinking, 'i need to be on level 59 so i can use my axe of flaming death', because you would be having lots of fun on lvl 55 with your minor axe of flaming death.
MUAHAHAHAHAHA
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